1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake Today. We're continuing with the Ronnie 2 00:00:23,236 --> 00:00:26,676 Speaker 1: Karraschillo story. This is part two, so if you haven't 3 00:00:26,676 --> 00:00:29,156 Speaker 1: listened to part one yet, you should definitely go back 4 00:00:29,476 --> 00:00:34,716 Speaker 1: and do that now. So last episode we ended with 5 00:00:34,836 --> 00:00:38,356 Speaker 1: Ronnie getting some good news or what seemed like it. Anyhow, 6 00:00:38,676 --> 00:00:41,756 Speaker 1: the court basically told him, we think your sentence of 7 00:00:41,836 --> 00:00:45,196 Speaker 1: two hundred to six hundred years may have violated a 8 00:00:45,236 --> 00:00:48,996 Speaker 1: clause in the Illinois Constitution. That clause, by the way, 9 00:00:49,196 --> 00:00:53,636 Speaker 1: says quote, all penalties shall be determined both according to 10 00:00:53,716 --> 00:00:56,676 Speaker 1: the seriousness of the offense and with the objective of 11 00:00:56,756 --> 00:01:02,836 Speaker 1: restoring the offender to useful citizenship. Bottom line, Ronnie could 12 00:01:02,996 --> 00:01:07,476 Speaker 1: now be resentenced. Well maybe. Last June there was yet 13 00:01:07,556 --> 00:01:10,516 Speaker 1: another hearing to figure this all out. It took days. 14 00:01:11,156 --> 00:01:14,396 Speaker 1: Ronnie's lawyer, Michael Deutsch, brought in over a dozen witnesses 15 00:01:14,436 --> 00:01:18,596 Speaker 1: to testify about who Ronnie was and is now, about 16 00:01:18,636 --> 00:01:20,676 Speaker 1: the type of man that Ronnie has become in prison. 17 00:01:21,236 --> 00:01:24,236 Speaker 1: One of those witnesses was Ali Prewett, a lawyer and 18 00:01:24,316 --> 00:01:28,076 Speaker 1: Chicago activist. She talked about Ronnie and the people he'd 19 00:01:28,116 --> 00:01:29,396 Speaker 1: mentored or inspired. 20 00:01:30,236 --> 00:01:32,236 Speaker 2: What really has stuck out to me over the years 21 00:01:32,316 --> 00:01:35,396 Speaker 2: is the positive impact he's left on not only folks 22 00:01:35,396 --> 00:01:39,796 Speaker 2: who have been incarcerated, but folks who haven't. He has 23 00:01:39,916 --> 00:01:44,676 Speaker 2: this sort of positive influence and inspiring story and is 24 00:01:44,756 --> 00:01:47,716 Speaker 2: just such a motivator for so many people, for his family, 25 00:01:48,276 --> 00:01:49,196 Speaker 2: for his friends. 26 00:01:49,956 --> 00:01:54,196 Speaker 1: The State of Illinois had lawyers there arguing the other side, it's. 27 00:01:54,036 --> 00:01:57,716 Speaker 3: Always difficult in a post conviction proceeding to take what 28 00:01:57,756 --> 00:02:01,556 Speaker 3: we know today and apply it to a trial proceeding 29 00:02:01,596 --> 00:02:03,596 Speaker 3: that happened years. 30 00:02:03,236 --> 00:02:04,996 Speaker 2: And in this case, decades ago. 31 00:02:06,116 --> 00:02:09,116 Speaker 3: The circumstances of the crime, the facts of the unknw 32 00:02:09,196 --> 00:02:12,276 Speaker 3: line crime, those have all been litigated, and as council said, 33 00:02:12,276 --> 00:02:14,996 Speaker 3: we're not here to relitigate the facts of the case. 34 00:02:15,596 --> 00:02:18,676 Speaker 1: Basically, the state was saying, look, we're not here for 35 00:02:18,716 --> 00:02:22,276 Speaker 1: a new trial. We're only here to determine if Ronnie 36 00:02:22,316 --> 00:02:26,276 Speaker 1: Kerriskillo should be re sentenced. Now, Ronnie claimed that his 37 00:02:26,356 --> 00:02:30,116 Speaker 1: sentence was unfair and disproportionate to his crime, but the 38 00:02:30,116 --> 00:02:33,676 Speaker 1: state then argues, what really matters here is that Ronnie 39 00:02:33,756 --> 00:02:35,836 Speaker 1: has a shot at release, and as long as he 40 00:02:35,956 --> 00:02:39,236 Speaker 1: does well, then the sentence is fair. 41 00:02:39,996 --> 00:02:42,156 Speaker 4: And that is key to the decision and the key 42 00:02:42,236 --> 00:02:47,836 Speaker 4: to the analysis here because mister Karraschio is eligible for parole. 43 00:02:48,556 --> 00:02:51,596 Speaker 1: In other words, perhaps six hundred years sounds like a 44 00:02:51,636 --> 00:02:55,636 Speaker 1: long time, but he's eligible for parole. So what's the problem. 45 00:02:56,236 --> 00:03:00,516 Speaker 1: And the judge basically agrees. What does this mean for Ronnie? Well, 46 00:03:00,676 --> 00:03:02,596 Speaker 1: it means that he now has to place all of 47 00:03:02,636 --> 00:03:07,356 Speaker 1: his hopes on getting parole. There's just one problem when 48 00:03:07,396 --> 00:03:09,676 Speaker 1: it comes to the parole board. It's it seems that 49 00:03:09,756 --> 00:03:13,796 Speaker 1: he can't escape the notoriety of his own story. Ronnie's 50 00:03:13,836 --> 00:03:17,396 Speaker 1: been in prison for nearly half a century, and he's 51 00:03:17,396 --> 00:03:21,436 Speaker 1: stuck in a convoluted legal system, a system that perhaps 52 00:03:21,476 --> 00:03:24,716 Speaker 1: could be gained by an operator like Bob Cooley, but 53 00:03:24,796 --> 00:03:27,756 Speaker 1: which was terrifying to a guy like Ronnie who was 54 00:03:27,796 --> 00:03:32,076 Speaker 1: trapped inside with no fixer to call. And I gotta 55 00:03:32,116 --> 00:03:35,276 Speaker 1: tell you, at times, Ronnie's story felt a bit like 56 00:03:35,316 --> 00:03:38,676 Speaker 1: a Franz Kafka novel. There's a guy and he's stuck 57 00:03:39,036 --> 00:03:41,796 Speaker 1: trying to find his way out of one darkened labyrinth 58 00:03:41,876 --> 00:03:45,076 Speaker 1: after another, and every time it looks like there might 59 00:03:45,156 --> 00:04:12,516 Speaker 1: be an exit, the lights flicker out. I'm Jake Halpern, 60 00:04:12,876 --> 00:04:15,916 Speaker 1: and this is deep cover mob Land. 61 00:04:47,516 --> 00:04:52,556 Speaker 4: Thank you for using Securius you may start the conversation now. 62 00:04:52,636 --> 00:04:54,156 Speaker 5: This morning, Hey Ronnie, how are you? 63 00:04:55,116 --> 00:04:56,196 Speaker 4: WHOA Hey, we're all again. 64 00:04:57,076 --> 00:05:01,796 Speaker 1: Ronnie's been incarcerated since October of nineteen seventy six. Back then, 65 00:05:01,996 --> 00:05:05,396 Speaker 1: Ronnie was a teenager and a gang member. One night 66 00:05:05,436 --> 00:05:07,796 Speaker 1: he got involved in a fight. He says he shot 67 00:05:07,796 --> 00:05:11,356 Speaker 1: off the gun to break things up and accidentally killed 68 00:05:11,396 --> 00:05:16,316 Speaker 1: an off duty policeman, a man named Terence Loftus. Ronnie 69 00:05:16,356 --> 00:05:19,396 Speaker 1: was sentenced to two hundred to six hundred years in prison, 70 00:05:20,116 --> 00:05:23,596 Speaker 1: and afterwards he was sort of stunned. He says it 71 00:05:23,636 --> 00:05:26,396 Speaker 1: took him years to realize what the sentence would really 72 00:05:26,436 --> 00:05:27,076 Speaker 1: mean for him. 73 00:05:27,436 --> 00:05:29,516 Speaker 4: That's tak off and realize. Man. 74 00:05:30,476 --> 00:05:34,396 Speaker 1: He filed some early appeals that went well nowhere. 75 00:05:34,796 --> 00:05:37,956 Speaker 4: That's my father. Don't buy no more appeals, don't buy 76 00:05:37,996 --> 00:05:39,876 Speaker 4: no more lawyers. I go to the parole book. I'm 77 00:05:39,876 --> 00:05:41,876 Speaker 4: gonna see it and I shot this type of far 78 00:05:41,916 --> 00:05:44,596 Speaker 4: away there's no attention in it, and I'll make parole. 79 00:05:45,236 --> 00:05:49,636 Speaker 1: Parole. That was Ronnie's big hope. Yeah. Sure, maybe he'd 80 00:05:49,636 --> 00:05:53,396 Speaker 1: gotten slammed on his sentencing, but with good behavior, he 81 00:05:53,476 --> 00:05:56,516 Speaker 1: hoped he'd get out on parole. So he gradually turned 82 00:05:56,516 --> 00:05:59,796 Speaker 1: his life around in prison, he renounced his gang membership, 83 00:06:00,116 --> 00:06:03,876 Speaker 1: He learned a number of trades, got his ged, found religion, 84 00:06:04,116 --> 00:06:07,436 Speaker 1: became a mentor, he says, in so many ways, he 85 00:06:07,476 --> 00:06:10,676 Speaker 1: became a different person. And he figured the parole board 86 00:06:10,796 --> 00:06:13,716 Speaker 1: would see this, that they'd review the facts of his 87 00:06:13,876 --> 00:06:15,876 Speaker 1: case and release him. 88 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:18,516 Speaker 5: How many times have you been before a parole board? 89 00:06:19,116 --> 00:06:23,076 Speaker 4: I think thirty five times. At least thirty five times. 90 00:06:23,596 --> 00:06:27,236 Speaker 1: Over thirty times Ronnie's gone before the parole board. That's 91 00:06:27,236 --> 00:06:29,636 Speaker 1: almost once a year. It's kind of like going to 92 00:06:29,676 --> 00:06:34,836 Speaker 1: the Super Bowl annually and losing every single time. Ronnie 93 00:06:34,876 --> 00:06:38,796 Speaker 1: just keeps getting told Nope, you're not getting out. Even 94 00:06:38,836 --> 00:06:41,756 Speaker 1: so each year or so, when Ronnie comes up for parole, 95 00:06:42,196 --> 00:06:46,476 Speaker 1: he keeps trying, keeps providing evidence of his rehabilitation, and 96 00:06:46,596 --> 00:06:48,276 Speaker 1: talks about how far he's come. 97 00:06:49,196 --> 00:06:52,236 Speaker 4: My life has transformed so much from what I came 98 00:06:52,316 --> 00:06:55,036 Speaker 4: as a youth. I was a poor student. I was 99 00:06:55,116 --> 00:06:58,836 Speaker 4: not a bright educational book wise, not that I got 100 00:06:58,876 --> 00:07:01,716 Speaker 4: my GZI started going to college. I have six seven 101 00:07:01,716 --> 00:07:02,436 Speaker 4: different trades. 102 00:07:03,116 --> 00:07:06,956 Speaker 1: While behind bars, He's worked as an electrician, a welder, 103 00:07:07,276 --> 00:07:11,276 Speaker 1: a locksmith, a pipe bender, and a washer dryer repair man. 104 00:07:11,916 --> 00:07:14,516 Speaker 1: He's also trained to become a typist and a paralegal. 105 00:07:14,676 --> 00:07:18,516 Speaker 1: He's mentored fellow inmates, giving them legal advice. He's coached 106 00:07:18,516 --> 00:07:22,436 Speaker 1: the prisons baseball team and organized soccer tournaments for his jailmates. 107 00:07:22,916 --> 00:07:25,316 Speaker 1: He's a pastor, and he's even written a Bible study 108 00:07:25,356 --> 00:07:29,916 Speaker 1: workbook called Covenant with Abraham. Ronnie is not allowed to 109 00:07:29,956 --> 00:07:33,876 Speaker 1: attend parole hearings in person, but his supporters are and 110 00:07:33,916 --> 00:07:36,276 Speaker 1: they do. They show up and vouch. 111 00:07:36,036 --> 00:07:40,916 Speaker 4: For him all different times, black, white, Latin, whatever, racist, different, 112 00:07:40,996 --> 00:07:43,956 Speaker 4: ex gang members, different, and all of them write letters 113 00:07:44,076 --> 00:07:46,316 Speaker 4: that I impacted their life. And I've been coaching them in 114 00:07:46,396 --> 00:07:49,516 Speaker 4: Christianity for long and saying, oh, you live your life well, healthy, motherical, health, 115 00:07:49,516 --> 00:07:51,236 Speaker 4: your family, and this is all I do for my 116 00:07:51,316 --> 00:07:53,236 Speaker 4: whole forty six years. 117 00:07:53,756 --> 00:07:56,876 Speaker 1: Over the years, Ronnie has won over a number of supporters, 118 00:07:57,116 --> 00:08:01,556 Speaker 1: including religious leaders, an Alderman, a US congressman, even one 119 00:08:01,556 --> 00:08:04,396 Speaker 1: of the prosecutors who originally brought the case against him. 120 00:08:04,996 --> 00:08:09,476 Speaker 1: That prosecutor, Thomas Breen, noted that Ronnie's years of menuring 121 00:08:09,596 --> 00:08:12,716 Speaker 1: showed him to be a model for other inmates. Breen 122 00:08:12,796 --> 00:08:15,116 Speaker 1: went so far as to compare Ronnie to the police 123 00:08:15,156 --> 00:08:18,916 Speaker 1: officer he killed He said that Ronnie had quote many 124 00:08:18,956 --> 00:08:23,116 Speaker 1: of the generous characteristics of a caring person, not unlike 125 00:08:23,396 --> 00:08:28,156 Speaker 1: Terry Loftus. Members of the media have also written about 126 00:08:28,196 --> 00:08:32,516 Speaker 1: Ronnie's story, tracking his bid for freedom. All of this 127 00:08:32,596 --> 00:08:35,716 Speaker 1: seems like it might tip the scales in Ronnie's favor, right, 128 00:08:36,396 --> 00:08:40,676 Speaker 1: the only problem being the parole board itself. It's known 129 00:08:40,676 --> 00:08:44,396 Speaker 1: in Illinois as the Prisoner Review Board. Now in theory, 130 00:08:44,676 --> 00:08:47,836 Speaker 1: it's a neutral body that can reach its own independent verdict. 131 00:08:48,316 --> 00:08:51,596 Speaker 1: Its members are appointed by the governor. Its ranks include 132 00:08:51,636 --> 00:08:57,116 Speaker 1: former parole officers, prosecutors, social workers, cops, and politicians. The 133 00:08:57,156 --> 00:09:01,036 Speaker 1: board operates with virtually no oversight, and its decisions are 134 00:09:01,116 --> 00:09:05,396 Speaker 1: not reviewable in court. Jorge Montes sat on that parole 135 00:09:05,396 --> 00:09:07,076 Speaker 1: board for sixteen years. 136 00:09:07,996 --> 00:09:13,036 Speaker 3: I was a law and order and conservative Republican, and 137 00:09:13,076 --> 00:09:17,116 Speaker 3: I was going to do what all conservative people should do, 138 00:09:17,276 --> 00:09:20,676 Speaker 3: is keep them all in and not let anybody out. 139 00:09:20,996 --> 00:09:22,076 Speaker 3: That's what I set out to do. 140 00:09:22,556 --> 00:09:25,916 Speaker 1: Jorge was a former prosecutor, and he was tough. He 141 00:09:25,956 --> 00:09:29,836 Speaker 1: wasn't inclined to let many guys out. And then one 142 00:09:29,916 --> 00:09:33,916 Speaker 1: day this one inmate comes up for parole. Jorge says, 143 00:09:33,956 --> 00:09:36,636 Speaker 1: this inmate had a very strong case for being released, 144 00:09:37,236 --> 00:09:40,716 Speaker 1: but Porge still voted no. He said he did it 145 00:09:40,876 --> 00:09:44,236 Speaker 1: almost automatically, like that's just what he was supposed to do. 146 00:09:45,076 --> 00:09:47,716 Speaker 1: And then something kind of odd happened. 147 00:09:48,276 --> 00:09:53,116 Speaker 3: The very conservative Republican chairman told me, mister Montez, is 148 00:09:53,116 --> 00:09:55,916 Speaker 3: there something we're missing here? I said, well, why would 149 00:09:55,916 --> 00:10:00,396 Speaker 3: that be. You're voting to deny parole for what appears 150 00:10:00,436 --> 00:10:04,116 Speaker 3: to be a pretty perfect candidate for a parole. I said, 151 00:10:04,156 --> 00:10:06,876 Speaker 3: in that case, I withdraw my emotion and I would 152 00:10:06,916 --> 00:10:08,676 Speaker 3: move that we parole, I mean we did. 153 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:12,556 Speaker 1: It was almost like on some level, Jorge was looking 154 00:10:12,596 --> 00:10:17,556 Speaker 1: for permission to show leniency, to say, you know what, Yeah, 155 00:10:17,876 --> 00:10:20,876 Speaker 1: this guy does deserve a second chance. Let him out. 156 00:10:21,276 --> 00:10:25,676 Speaker 3: And that started my journey on these issues. So increasingly 157 00:10:26,116 --> 00:10:30,116 Speaker 3: I began to scrutinize cases, to really consider where there's 158 00:10:30,156 --> 00:10:35,756 Speaker 3: somebody had changed their lives and that warranted a second look, 159 00:10:36,356 --> 00:10:40,196 Speaker 3: a second chance. And increasingly I began to find that 160 00:10:40,236 --> 00:10:43,556 Speaker 3: a lot of these people were really redeemable, and my 161 00:10:43,676 --> 00:10:45,316 Speaker 3: votes started to reflect that. 162 00:10:46,196 --> 00:10:49,436 Speaker 1: All of that being said, when Jorge first heard Ronnie's 163 00:10:49,476 --> 00:10:53,196 Speaker 1: case for parole, he says he wasn't persuaded, not at 164 00:10:53,196 --> 00:10:56,916 Speaker 1: first anyhow, especially given the fact that Ronnie had killed 165 00:10:56,916 --> 00:11:00,236 Speaker 1: a police officer. Jorge says that he voted against Ronnie 166 00:11:00,596 --> 00:11:04,036 Speaker 1: a few times. At these hearings, the inmates are not 167 00:11:04,076 --> 00:11:07,676 Speaker 1: allowed to show up and speak for themselves. Instead, one 168 00:11:07,756 --> 00:11:10,596 Speaker 1: member of the parole board speaks with the inmate and 169 00:11:10,636 --> 00:11:14,196 Speaker 1: then presents their case, almost like a lawyer, but not 170 00:11:14,316 --> 00:11:17,636 Speaker 1: really because the presenters they may have their own agenda 171 00:11:17,836 --> 00:11:20,916 Speaker 1: and they might not advocate for that inmate at all. 172 00:11:21,116 --> 00:11:23,396 Speaker 1: So maybe you're starting to get what I'm talking about 173 00:11:23,476 --> 00:11:26,996 Speaker 1: when I say this whole process at times feels like 174 00:11:27,076 --> 00:11:32,316 Speaker 1: something that Franz Kafka cooked up. Anyway, one day, Ronnie 175 00:11:32,356 --> 00:11:35,596 Speaker 1: is up for parole yet again. Jorge is still not 176 00:11:35,716 --> 00:11:39,196 Speaker 1: convinced that Ronnie should be set free, and on this occasion, 177 00:11:39,516 --> 00:11:43,156 Speaker 1: Ronnie's presenter is well, I'll just let Jorge explain. 178 00:11:43,676 --> 00:11:46,716 Speaker 3: There was a gentleman on the board named Dick Doria, 179 00:11:47,276 --> 00:11:50,636 Speaker 3: and Dick Doria was a sheriff from Tupeach County. Formerly 180 00:11:51,036 --> 00:11:55,236 Speaker 3: the sheriff a hard conserve, ultra conservative. 181 00:11:55,196 --> 00:11:59,956 Speaker 1: So bad news for Ronnie, right, But wait, because Dick Doria, 182 00:12:00,116 --> 00:12:04,236 Speaker 1: the conservative former sheriff, when he made his presentation, he 183 00:12:04,316 --> 00:12:06,676 Speaker 1: said something that really surprised. 184 00:12:06,276 --> 00:12:11,196 Speaker 3: Orge, and Dick said that it was impossible, in his 185 00:12:11,316 --> 00:12:17,836 Speaker 3: professional opinion, that Ronnie would have killed this officer purposely intentionally. 186 00:12:18,636 --> 00:12:21,876 Speaker 3: Impossible the kind of weapon he used, and Monster Doria 187 00:12:21,876 --> 00:12:25,636 Speaker 3: I knew all about ballistics and weapons and calibers, and 188 00:12:26,196 --> 00:12:29,556 Speaker 3: he made a wonderful presentation. He said, I'm not well. 189 00:12:29,556 --> 00:12:31,836 Speaker 3: I'm voting to release this man because I think he 190 00:12:32,516 --> 00:12:34,836 Speaker 3: did not intentionally kill the police officer. 191 00:12:35,756 --> 00:12:38,516 Speaker 1: According to Jorge, Dick Doria said that he looked at 192 00:12:38,556 --> 00:12:42,156 Speaker 1: the evidence, the distances, the ballistics and the like, and 193 00:12:42,236 --> 00:12:45,636 Speaker 1: determined it didn't add up. It didn't make sense that 194 00:12:45,716 --> 00:12:50,236 Speaker 1: Ronnie had killed this cop intentionally, and this really got 195 00:12:50,276 --> 00:12:55,396 Speaker 1: Jorge thinking critically about Ronnie's whole case, about Ronnie's intentions, 196 00:12:55,676 --> 00:12:58,876 Speaker 1: his efforts to redeem himself, and even about the original 197 00:12:58,916 --> 00:13:02,076 Speaker 1: sentence back in the nineteen seventies from Judge Wilson, and 198 00:13:02,156 --> 00:13:05,436 Speaker 1: whether it had been fair. In fact, Jorge says he 199 00:13:05,516 --> 00:13:07,956 Speaker 1: came to feel that Ronnie's sentence of up to six 200 00:13:08,076 --> 00:13:11,596 Speaker 1: hundred years did seem a bit fishy coming on the 201 00:13:11,596 --> 00:13:14,276 Speaker 1: heels of the Harry at Lamand trial, and that this 202 00:13:14,396 --> 00:13:16,836 Speaker 1: might be an instance of camouflage bias. 203 00:13:17,676 --> 00:13:20,076 Speaker 3: Well It makes sense to me that that a judge 204 00:13:20,076 --> 00:13:23,316 Speaker 3: would behave this way and take it out on poor 205 00:13:23,396 --> 00:13:28,876 Speaker 3: cas because he had just given this sniper who was 206 00:13:28,916 --> 00:13:32,716 Speaker 3: well known in the community for being a mafioso. He 207 00:13:32,796 --> 00:13:35,116 Speaker 3: gives them an out, he gives them, he gives them 208 00:13:35,116 --> 00:13:37,556 Speaker 3: a past, and then of course he's got to cover 209 00:13:37,636 --> 00:13:42,556 Speaker 3: his tracks by then, uh overreacting on the man. I 210 00:13:42,596 --> 00:13:45,316 Speaker 3: thought that was an excellent arguments, and I believe. 211 00:13:45,036 --> 00:14:03,596 Speaker 1: That we'll be right back throughout this process. Ronnie has 212 00:14:03,636 --> 00:14:07,876 Speaker 1: also faced another big challenge. The Chicago Police Department and 213 00:14:07,956 --> 00:14:11,316 Speaker 1: the union representing its officers do not want him to 214 00:14:11,316 --> 00:14:14,556 Speaker 1: get parole, so much so that they have physically showed 215 00:14:14,636 --> 00:14:18,316 Speaker 1: up at his parole hearings. Jorge remembers this. He says, 216 00:14:18,516 --> 00:14:19,836 Speaker 1: they made quite an impression. 217 00:14:20,516 --> 00:14:24,996 Speaker 3: The conference room was very tight, and Chicago would send 218 00:14:25,036 --> 00:14:28,756 Speaker 3: busloads of police officers and they would all crowd in 219 00:14:28,756 --> 00:14:31,276 Speaker 3: to the conference room that just fit the conference table, 220 00:14:31,756 --> 00:14:35,076 Speaker 3: and there were all there are thirty cops standing around us, 221 00:14:35,916 --> 00:14:39,476 Speaker 3: and they were looking over our shoulder and literally and 222 00:14:39,796 --> 00:14:43,756 Speaker 3: as we're casting votes. It was very intimidating and very difficult. 223 00:14:43,956 --> 00:14:46,716 Speaker 1: I've seen a picture of this scene and I got 224 00:14:46,716 --> 00:14:49,316 Speaker 1: to describe it to you. You can see the Parole 225 00:14:49,356 --> 00:14:52,756 Speaker 1: board members sitting at a table, and then like a 226 00:14:52,796 --> 00:14:56,436 Speaker 1: foot behind them is a whole crowd of uniformed officers 227 00:14:56,876 --> 00:15:02,436 Speaker 1: literally hovering over them. With time, Jorge came to realize 228 00:15:02,436 --> 00:15:05,636 Speaker 1: that Ronnie might not ever receive enough votes for parole. 229 00:15:06,196 --> 00:15:08,356 Speaker 1: In fact, at one point he even wrote an affid 230 00:15:08,436 --> 00:15:12,276 Speaker 1: David on Ronnie's behalf. In that Affidavid, he said that 231 00:15:12,436 --> 00:15:16,676 Speaker 1: despite Ronnie's quote excellent prison record and his strong family 232 00:15:16,716 --> 00:15:21,716 Speaker 1: and community support, that he was repeatedly denied parole because quote, 233 00:15:21,876 --> 00:15:26,316 Speaker 1: the victim was a Chicago police officer. Montez concluded that 234 00:15:26,436 --> 00:15:29,796 Speaker 1: quote there are several members of the board then and 235 00:15:29,876 --> 00:15:33,436 Speaker 1: now who will never vote for parole when the victim 236 00:15:33,676 --> 00:15:39,116 Speaker 1: is a police officer. For Ronnie, none of this is encouraging. 237 00:15:39,876 --> 00:15:41,956 Speaker 4: You know, the constitution says, we have votes and we 238 00:15:41,956 --> 00:15:43,796 Speaker 4: don't care how most you GOTU there. We don't care 239 00:15:43,836 --> 00:15:45,796 Speaker 4: about none of it. You kill the police officers and 240 00:15:45,876 --> 00:15:49,076 Speaker 4: they blaintly say, I'm not gonna vote for a police killers. 241 00:15:49,556 --> 00:15:52,556 Speaker 4: So you know, how can I have them for mercy 242 00:15:52,836 --> 00:15:56,236 Speaker 4: when they're telling me before the hearing's even done. So 243 00:15:56,276 --> 00:15:58,716 Speaker 4: I mean, if I bring anybody in there to testify, 244 00:15:58,956 --> 00:16:00,956 Speaker 4: I'll hope or anything like that. We don't want to 245 00:16:00,956 --> 00:16:01,236 Speaker 4: hear that. 246 00:16:02,196 --> 00:16:06,236 Speaker 1: And this creates a real logistical challenge for Ronnie. Can 247 00:16:06,316 --> 00:16:09,396 Speaker 1: he get the votes he needs to be released. Each 248 00:16:09,436 --> 00:16:12,036 Speaker 1: time Ronnie is up for parole, the board is different. 249 00:16:12,436 --> 00:16:16,196 Speaker 1: Old members cycle out, new members cycle in, and he's 250 00:16:16,236 --> 00:16:19,316 Speaker 1: come close a few times. Each one of these moments 251 00:16:19,756 --> 00:16:22,916 Speaker 1: is seered into his memory, moments when it seemed like 252 00:16:23,196 --> 00:16:25,756 Speaker 1: maybe the door was about to swing open for him. 253 00:16:26,396 --> 00:16:30,476 Speaker 1: In Justice Watch, a Chicago based nonprofit newsroom, has done 254 00:16:30,516 --> 00:16:34,436 Speaker 1: some excellent reporting on Ronnie's bid for parole. They found 255 00:16:34,476 --> 00:16:36,876 Speaker 1: that in the years between two thousand and five and 256 00:16:36,916 --> 00:16:40,036 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, Ronnie had a series of parole 257 00:16:40,076 --> 00:16:43,556 Speaker 1: hearings and each year he came within one vote of 258 00:16:43,596 --> 00:16:47,476 Speaker 1: winning his freedom. Jorge can still remember these votes, how 259 00:16:47,516 --> 00:16:50,476 Speaker 1: excitement would build as the board members cast their votes 260 00:16:50,796 --> 00:16:51,796 Speaker 1: one at a time. 261 00:16:52,196 --> 00:16:55,636 Speaker 3: For those of us that were favorable to his release, 262 00:16:56,316 --> 00:17:01,036 Speaker 3: it builds up a lot of momentum and expectation. And 263 00:17:01,196 --> 00:17:05,076 Speaker 3: there's one, there's two, there's three. Oh, we're getting closed. 264 00:17:05,076 --> 00:17:07,436 Speaker 3: I think this is it. He's gonna go home. And 265 00:17:07,476 --> 00:17:12,956 Speaker 3: then we get to know. So that's it's very tense. 266 00:17:14,516 --> 00:17:17,836 Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, Ronnie actually won a majority 267 00:17:17,836 --> 00:17:21,196 Speaker 1: of votes from the board, six yeses and five no's. 268 00:17:21,676 --> 00:17:25,996 Speaker 1: That's a win, right, Nope, The Illinois Prisoner Review Board 269 00:17:26,156 --> 00:17:29,436 Speaker 1: requires that he get a majority of all members, not 270 00:17:29,516 --> 00:17:32,076 Speaker 1: just those in attendance, and that day there were two 271 00:17:32,156 --> 00:17:34,916 Speaker 1: no shows and only thirteen members on the board at 272 00:17:34,956 --> 00:17:38,876 Speaker 1: the time, so his six vote majority it didn't count. 273 00:17:39,756 --> 00:17:42,196 Speaker 1: Jorge was the chairman of the parole Board at this point, 274 00:17:42,756 --> 00:17:45,956 Speaker 1: and he says, to come this close and to fall short, 275 00:17:46,356 --> 00:17:48,236 Speaker 1: it was really hard for him personally. 276 00:17:49,676 --> 00:17:54,596 Speaker 3: You feel deflated and you feel demoralized because if you 277 00:17:54,716 --> 00:17:57,636 Speaker 3: really believe in this and you work his work and 278 00:17:57,676 --> 00:18:01,636 Speaker 3: you try to keep work away from home, but if 279 00:18:01,676 --> 00:18:04,516 Speaker 3: you believe that it's the right thing to do, and 280 00:18:05,356 --> 00:18:08,996 Speaker 3: that we're keeping somebody locked up, a human being locked up, 281 00:18:09,316 --> 00:18:13,756 Speaker 3: that in the you're you're sympathizing with the family and 282 00:18:13,836 --> 00:18:19,116 Speaker 3: you see all the tears and you see people leaving devastated. Yeah, itated, 283 00:18:19,236 --> 00:18:19,876 Speaker 3: it impacts you. 284 00:18:20,516 --> 00:18:23,636 Speaker 1: Ronnie wasn't there, but he soon got the news. 285 00:18:24,716 --> 00:18:27,636 Speaker 4: According to my law, I was supposed to be granted parole. 286 00:18:27,876 --> 00:18:30,476 Speaker 4: I made the majority of the vote for me. 287 00:18:30,596 --> 00:18:32,756 Speaker 5: Like, what's that my going before the parole board thirty 288 00:18:32,796 --> 00:18:35,996 Speaker 5: five times and getting rejected every time. 289 00:18:37,476 --> 00:18:39,436 Speaker 4: I never go in front of the whole committee. I 290 00:18:39,516 --> 00:18:42,516 Speaker 4: see one person. One person comes and they call him 291 00:18:42,516 --> 00:18:45,156 Speaker 4: my hearing officer. After that, talk to nobody but this 292 00:18:45,196 --> 00:18:48,556 Speaker 4: one person. I'm up against an invisible body that I 293 00:18:48,636 --> 00:18:49,396 Speaker 4: never see. 294 00:18:50,236 --> 00:18:53,476 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, Ronnie was up for parole once again, 295 00:18:53,996 --> 00:18:56,556 Speaker 1: and the event attracted attention from the local press. 296 00:18:58,316 --> 00:19:00,796 Speaker 3: WDN investigates comp killers going free. 297 00:19:00,956 --> 00:19:04,276 Speaker 4: Now another officer's murderer is appealing to the Illinois Prisoner 298 00:19:04,356 --> 00:19:05,636 Speaker 4: Review Board for freedom. 299 00:19:05,876 --> 00:19:08,996 Speaker 1: This is a news report from WGN in Chicago that 300 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:11,876 Speaker 1: aired in September of twenty twenty, a few weeks before 301 00:19:11,956 --> 00:19:14,276 Speaker 1: Ronnie was set to appear before the parole board. 302 00:19:14,676 --> 00:19:16,556 Speaker 6: You might think that killing a cop would lead to 303 00:19:16,636 --> 00:19:20,636 Speaker 6: an automatic life sentence, but under old sentencing rules, inmates 304 00:19:20,636 --> 00:19:24,116 Speaker 6: are fighting themselves eligible for release, and as we found, 305 00:19:24,236 --> 00:19:27,676 Speaker 6: it often lands in the lapse of deceased officers' families 306 00:19:27,956 --> 00:19:29,676 Speaker 6: to fight to keep them locked up. 307 00:19:30,116 --> 00:19:33,436 Speaker 1: The family members of the victim often come to these hearings. 308 00:19:33,916 --> 00:19:37,076 Speaker 1: It's a tortured process. They talk about how hard it's 309 00:19:37,076 --> 00:19:39,076 Speaker 1: been for them and how they hope that the killer 310 00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:41,996 Speaker 1: will not be allowed to just walk away. In the 311 00:19:42,116 --> 00:19:45,676 Speaker 1: WGN news story about Ronnie, a cousin spoke for the 312 00:19:45,716 --> 00:19:49,916 Speaker 1: Loftis family. We are aging and we need to speak 313 00:19:49,956 --> 00:19:50,436 Speaker 1: for him. 314 00:19:50,796 --> 00:19:53,516 Speaker 5: We need to speak for his parents and for his brother, 315 00:19:54,076 --> 00:19:55,436 Speaker 5: and they are all gone. 316 00:19:56,396 --> 00:19:58,996 Speaker 1: I did read an interview with Loftus's brother before he 317 00:19:59,036 --> 00:20:02,276 Speaker 1: passed away. He told the Chicago Sun Times that the 318 00:20:02,316 --> 00:20:07,116 Speaker 1: shooting devastated the family, saying, quote, our mother was never 319 00:20:07,156 --> 00:20:11,156 Speaker 1: the same. After that, the Fraternal Order of Police declined 320 00:20:11,156 --> 00:20:14,356 Speaker 1: my requests for an interview, and the Chicago Police Department 321 00:20:14,556 --> 00:20:17,876 Speaker 1: didn't respond to my requests for comment. But I did 322 00:20:17,916 --> 00:20:21,956 Speaker 1: manage to find a web page commemorating Terence Loftus. A 323 00:20:22,036 --> 00:20:25,076 Speaker 1: number of his friends and fellow police officers had posted 324 00:20:25,116 --> 00:20:31,276 Speaker 1: messages here. One read, I remember the night he was killed. 325 00:20:31,716 --> 00:20:34,036 Speaker 1: He was showing me his new green leather jacket in 326 00:20:34,116 --> 00:20:37,676 Speaker 1: the tactical office. A few hours later he was shot. 327 00:20:38,436 --> 00:20:40,916 Speaker 1: I remember seeing him later at the hospital with a 328 00:20:40,956 --> 00:20:43,316 Speaker 1: breathing tube in his mouth and the sounds of the 329 00:20:43,356 --> 00:20:47,156 Speaker 1: air machine pumping in a steady rhythm. That vision to 330 00:20:47,236 --> 00:20:49,916 Speaker 1: this day has haunted me and will until the day 331 00:20:49,956 --> 00:20:54,116 Speaker 1: I die. Unlike the reprobate that killed him. Terry was 332 00:20:54,156 --> 00:20:58,476 Speaker 1: an honorable and exceptional person. Some of the posts were 333 00:20:58,516 --> 00:21:01,676 Speaker 1: written directly to Terry, like letters sent to him in 334 00:21:01,676 --> 00:21:06,276 Speaker 1: the beyond. One of those read quote, once again, parole 335 00:21:06,316 --> 00:21:08,996 Speaker 1: has been denied for the individual that took your life 336 00:21:09,316 --> 00:21:11,436 Speaker 1: and cause so much pain to those that love you. 337 00:21:12,316 --> 00:21:14,876 Speaker 1: This time, the parole board said, he has to wait 338 00:21:14,916 --> 00:21:18,476 Speaker 1: three years to be heard again. When that time comes, 339 00:21:18,796 --> 00:21:21,556 Speaker 1: your brother, officers will be there again like they have 340 00:21:21,676 --> 00:21:24,636 Speaker 1: been in the past, to stop this individual from getting 341 00:21:24,636 --> 00:21:32,556 Speaker 1: out of prison. You have not been forgotten. Reading these posts, 342 00:21:33,036 --> 00:21:36,036 Speaker 1: it was heartbreaking, and I could see how, even all 343 00:21:36,076 --> 00:21:39,236 Speaker 1: these years later, his friends and family would still be 344 00:21:39,356 --> 00:21:42,756 Speaker 1: simmering with anguish and rage at the tragedy of it all. 345 00:21:43,516 --> 00:21:48,196 Speaker 1: It also seemed almost cruel that year after year Loftus's 346 00:21:48,196 --> 00:21:51,316 Speaker 1: friends and family members would be expected to attend these 347 00:21:51,356 --> 00:21:54,956 Speaker 1: parole hearings and share these kinds of sentiments that they'd 348 00:21:54,956 --> 00:21:59,916 Speaker 1: have to relive their trauma again and again. I also 349 00:22:00,036 --> 00:22:03,476 Speaker 1: have to wonder what Terence Loftus himself would say about 350 00:22:03,516 --> 00:22:05,876 Speaker 1: all of this. I wonder how he would want to 351 00:22:05,916 --> 00:22:09,796 Speaker 1: be remembered, what he would want his legacy to be, 352 00:22:09,796 --> 00:22:13,516 Speaker 1: because after all. This was a man whose defining act 353 00:22:13,956 --> 00:22:17,956 Speaker 1: was one of courage and decency. His biggest mistake, the 354 00:22:17,996 --> 00:22:20,796 Speaker 1: thing that got him killed, was his inclination to help 355 00:22:21,316 --> 00:22:24,636 Speaker 1: to step into the fray when he absolutely didn't have to. 356 00:22:30,836 --> 00:22:35,276 Speaker 1: For Ronnie, the whole situation is confounding. He accepts his 357 00:22:35,356 --> 00:22:38,916 Speaker 1: responsibility for the death of Officer Loftus, he knows he's 358 00:22:38,956 --> 00:22:40,956 Speaker 1: the one who pulled the trigger, and he says that 359 00:22:40,996 --> 00:22:44,516 Speaker 1: he's done everything in his power to redeem himself. But 360 00:22:44,636 --> 00:22:47,756 Speaker 1: as far as the justice system is concerned, there appears 361 00:22:47,796 --> 00:22:49,756 Speaker 1: to be no real path forward. 362 00:22:50,396 --> 00:22:54,236 Speaker 4: I'm not supposed to mature and be able to have 363 00:22:54,356 --> 00:22:58,596 Speaker 4: the constitutional right of being restored to useful citizenship. Judge 364 00:22:58,756 --> 00:23:01,236 Speaker 4: didn't leave me no room for it. He just wasted me. 365 00:23:01,796 --> 00:23:05,556 Speaker 5: I'm wondering how in the face of being rejected for 366 00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:09,396 Speaker 5: parole for thirty five times and being in is in 367 00:23:09,756 --> 00:23:12,436 Speaker 5: for almost half a century, Like, how do you keep 368 00:23:12,476 --> 00:23:16,196 Speaker 5: that faith in that hope lives well? 369 00:23:16,396 --> 00:23:18,516 Speaker 4: I studied who I was a day. I stay in 370 00:23:18,556 --> 00:23:20,596 Speaker 4: the scripture that I pray every day. I pray with 371 00:23:20,676 --> 00:23:27,556 Speaker 4: other people. Oh it's heartbreaking, especially when you lose family 372 00:23:27,596 --> 00:23:30,716 Speaker 4: members down the line and they keep your faith so 373 00:23:31,396 --> 00:23:34,116 Speaker 4: there's a scripture in there where it says what is 374 00:23:34,396 --> 00:23:38,876 Speaker 4: Genesis fifty twenty, where what man means means for evil 375 00:23:39,316 --> 00:23:42,076 Speaker 4: that God means for good? And in the Bible, God 376 00:23:42,156 --> 00:23:44,996 Speaker 4: is is it just? God is just all justice. 377 00:23:45,356 --> 00:23:48,676 Speaker 1: This whole exchange oddly reminded me of something that Bob 378 00:23:48,796 --> 00:23:52,116 Speaker 1: Cooley once said to me. He said that in his mind, 379 00:23:52,556 --> 00:23:55,676 Speaker 1: the world of justice was divided into man's law and 380 00:23:55,796 --> 00:23:58,636 Speaker 1: God's law, and then he put little faith in Man's law, 381 00:23:59,036 --> 00:24:02,516 Speaker 1: I think because he saw it as arbitrary and fundamentally corrupt. 382 00:24:03,356 --> 00:24:06,956 Speaker 1: But God's law, on the other hand, was pure and transcendent, 383 00:24:07,636 --> 00:24:11,316 Speaker 1: and according to Bob, it's had a meaning for him. 384 00:24:11,436 --> 00:24:14,636 Speaker 1: And I kind of understood this. In a city like Chicago, 385 00:24:14,956 --> 00:24:19,876 Speaker 1: where corruption and politics and gang violence and lingering class 386 00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:24,156 Speaker 1: resentments all skewed the law of man, he almost had 387 00:24:24,156 --> 00:24:28,076 Speaker 1: to grasp for something higher, hope that true justice might 388 00:24:28,116 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 1: exist elsewhere, in some better realm. And it was here 389 00:24:32,116 --> 00:24:36,516 Speaker 1: that Ronnie's faith resided. Though I wondered if he thought 390 00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:39,316 Speaker 1: that this faith alone would actually get him past that 391 00:24:39,436 --> 00:24:40,076 Speaker 1: parole board. 392 00:24:41,596 --> 00:24:43,876 Speaker 5: What do you think your chances of being released are. 393 00:24:44,476 --> 00:24:47,716 Speaker 4: I'm going to release I have faith in God, I 394 00:24:47,756 --> 00:24:51,156 Speaker 4: pray every day. Did he put on the hearts of 395 00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:54,276 Speaker 4: the just people, you know, to see the scenario, and 396 00:24:55,036 --> 00:24:59,956 Speaker 4: they don't address the politics of it and give the 397 00:25:00,036 --> 00:25:03,596 Speaker 4: judgment by law. I'm not gonna surrender myself all wanna 398 00:25:03,636 --> 00:25:05,516 Speaker 4: die here, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna go for it. 399 00:25:05,596 --> 00:25:06,876 Speaker 4: I'm not. I'm not living that way. 400 00:25:07,716 --> 00:25:10,996 Speaker 5: If you were released tomorrow, what's the first thing you 401 00:25:10,996 --> 00:25:11,436 Speaker 5: would do? 402 00:25:12,676 --> 00:25:14,996 Speaker 4: I was sit in the backyard basically looking up to 403 00:25:14,996 --> 00:25:17,916 Speaker 4: see the sky. I see the stars at night, and 404 00:25:18,076 --> 00:25:21,796 Speaker 4: the threat is over. So I came from a gang life. 405 00:25:21,956 --> 00:25:24,756 Speaker 4: That threat never goes away. So the first thing I 406 00:25:24,796 --> 00:25:27,596 Speaker 4: want to do is just go and just like, oh man, 407 00:25:28,116 --> 00:25:30,876 Speaker 4: you know it's over, and then go live the life 408 00:25:30,916 --> 00:25:33,996 Speaker 4: from there. I got so much time left to live. Basically, 409 00:25:34,036 --> 00:25:36,716 Speaker 4: go be a help the humanity's supposed to do in 410 00:25:36,716 --> 00:25:38,596 Speaker 4: the first place, be a giver. I was a taker 411 00:25:38,636 --> 00:25:42,116 Speaker 4: as a kid. I can't take back my criminal activity 412 00:25:42,156 --> 00:25:44,756 Speaker 4: is akin. I can't take back, can't put the bullets back, 413 00:25:44,796 --> 00:25:46,796 Speaker 4: and I can't do any of that. Not going to 414 00:25:46,836 --> 00:25:47,396 Speaker 4: go forward. 415 00:25:50,396 --> 00:25:53,396 Speaker 1: This summer, Ronnie was moved to a new facility, a 416 00:25:53,516 --> 00:25:57,316 Speaker 1: re entry center. Ronnie's attorney petitioned to have him move there. 417 00:25:58,396 --> 00:26:01,036 Speaker 1: He's there to learn some basic life skills like how 418 00:26:01,036 --> 00:26:04,476 Speaker 1: to write a resume and how to manage finances, skills 419 00:26:04,516 --> 00:26:08,636 Speaker 1: that he would need if he ever makes parole. Ronnie 420 00:26:08,676 --> 00:26:11,116 Speaker 1: is now sick four years old. He'll be up for 421 00:26:11,196 --> 00:26:30,516 Speaker 1: parole again in November of twenty twenty two. This episode 422 00:26:30,556 --> 00:26:33,756 Speaker 1: of deep Cover was produced by Amy Gaines and edited 423 00:26:33,836 --> 00:26:39,156 Speaker 1: by Karen Chakerji. Our managing producers Jacob Smith. Original music 424 00:26:39,196 --> 00:26:43,276 Speaker 1: and our theme was composed by Luis Gara, mastering by 425 00:26:43,356 --> 00:26:49,076 Speaker 1: Jake Gorski. Mia Label is our executive producer. Additional thanks 426 00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:53,196 Speaker 1: to Jesse de Bartolomeo and Emily Horner, formerly of Injustice 427 00:26:53,236 --> 00:26:56,596 Speaker 1: Watch and now at the Chicago Tribune for her reporting 428 00:26:56,876 --> 00:27:08,636 Speaker 1: on Ronnie's case. I'm Jake Halpern. Deep Cover is a 429 00:27:08,676 --> 00:27:12,516 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. For ad free listening and early 430 00:27:12,636 --> 00:27:16,156 Speaker 1: access to upcoming seasons of deep Cover, consider becoming a 431 00:27:16,196 --> 00:27:20,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus subscriber. You can find Pushkin Plus on the 432 00:27:20,036 --> 00:27:24,236 Speaker 1: deep Cover show page on Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin 433 00:27:24,556 --> 00:27:26,836 Speaker 1: dot Fm.