Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five,
Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker.
Speaker 2: And this is Sarah Hartunger. I'm a mother of three,
Speaker 2: a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are
Speaker 2: two working parents who love our careers and our families.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 1: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun,
Speaker 1: from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
Speaker 1: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This
Speaker 1: episode is airing in early February, which will be about
Speaker 1: how to love your job again. We can all go
Speaker 1: through little slumps in our careers, even if we're generally
Speaker 1: in jobs we like, and so you know, as we're
Speaker 1: thinking about Valentine's Day this month, it helps to think
Speaker 1: about how we might love all the things in our lives.
Speaker 1: And sort of similar to any long term relationship, a
Speaker 1: job can benefit from putting a little extra into to
Speaker 1: it as long as you genuinely believe it is the
Speaker 1: right job for you to be in. So just if
Speaker 1: you notice my voice sounds a little different, I have
Speaker 1: a confession to make here, Sarah, perhaps you could describe
Speaker 1: this wretched scene you're seeing on the video.
Speaker 2: So I've recorded many episodes with Laura this is we're
Speaker 2: in the mid three hundreds, but this is the first
Speaker 2: time we have ever recorded one where she is horizontal.
Speaker 2: She's lying down. She unfortunately sustained a She's talked about
Speaker 2: her back on the podcast before, but this is an
Speaker 2: acute flare up of some back pain that is absolutely terrible.
Speaker 2: I mean I could see that by looking at her.
Speaker 2: I feel so bad for her. I did suggest we
Speaker 2: move this recording, but in typical Laura fashion, she felt
Speaker 2: like she wanted to see how we did today, and
Speaker 2: so far I think, so good. But I hope that
Speaker 2: by the time everyone is hearing this episode this is
Speaker 2: a distant memory. We can all laugh about it, and
Speaker 2: that your back and twisting in every witch direction, pain
Speaker 2: free moving forward.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I tried to go to my recording closet
Speaker 1: and I was like, Nope, this is not going to work.
Speaker 1: So here I am doing this on my back with
Speaker 1: my heating pad in my bed. So anyway, that is
Speaker 1: the upside of my job is that I can do
Speaker 1: this from my house, which is good. I can't even
Speaker 1: imagine why. If I was trying to get to an office,
Speaker 1: it just wouldn't work. So that's why people wind up
Speaker 1: on disability when they are in back pain. But speaking
Speaker 1: of jobs, Sarah, what were your early jobs that you did,
Speaker 1: like as a teenager.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So my early jobs, I had several of them.
Speaker 2: I grew up where you currently live. So I was
Speaker 2: a camp counselor at a camp that is not far
Speaker 2: from where you are. I was a camper there until
Speaker 2: until you age out and become a CIT and then
Speaker 2: I was a counselor in training and then an assistant
Speaker 2: counselor for a couple of years. And so that was
Speaker 2: my first job. I did it during the summers. I
Speaker 2: got paid like nothing. I believe the summer salary for
Speaker 2: five weeks of full time work because it was from
Speaker 2: like eight to four or something like that was three
Speaker 2: hundred dollars for the summer, and then the second summer
Speaker 2: I got a huge raise to four hundred dollars for
Speaker 2: the summer. But it was really fun and I feel
Speaker 2: like I did learn a lot about like just being
Speaker 2: responsible and working as a team, taking care of kids.
Speaker 2: What I liked and didn't like and I always requested
Speaker 2: the five and six year olds because I felt like
Speaker 2: they were old enough not to be babies, but young
Speaker 2: enough that they were listening to me. So I really
Speaker 2: liked it. And then I also worked at a video store,
Speaker 2: which we don't even have those anymore, so it was
Speaker 2: a relic of the past. And I did a lot
Speaker 2: of babysitting as well. I remember rates of like two
Speaker 2: dollars an hour at certain people's houses, and I actually
Speaker 2: I didn't mind babysitting.
Speaker 3: I you know, the time passed quickly.
Speaker 2: It was something to do, and then if the kids
Speaker 2: went to bed, you can kind of relax, eat the
Speaker 2: fun snacks, et cetera. So those were my main jobs,
Speaker 2: I guess the most job like one was the video
Speaker 2: store one. That was my first taste of like, do
Speaker 2: I want to work retail long term?
Speaker 3: The answer?
Speaker 1: What was the answer? Do you want to work retail
Speaker 1: long term?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: I did not, No, I did not.
Speaker 1: So she wound up in medicine. Very different, but I'm
Speaker 1: very Yeah, what would people have been renting that year?
Speaker 2: That was the Oh well, Titanic was big. There was
Speaker 2: a context, So how many copies of Titanic you could sell.
Speaker 2: I still see nineteen ninety seven movies and like, I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh yep, that was like a video store.
Speaker 1: Year was the one.
Speaker 2: But awkwardly, we also rented adult movies and so so.
Speaker 1: You know which of your neighbors were renting the full rest.
Speaker 2: I got to see who was returning what, and I
Speaker 2: didn't want to know.
Speaker 3: So that was a.
Speaker 1: Downside back in the day. Kids these days, they don't
Speaker 1: know how difficult it was for people to tap into
Speaker 1: that urge. I worked at a couple places I worked
Speaker 1: in aerobics daycare one summer. I know where people would
Speaker 1: go work out and they could drop their kids while
Speaker 1: they were doing it. I worked at Fizzoli's Italian restaurant
Speaker 1: for a summer. That was quite the experience of customer
Speaker 1: service and dealing with everyone wanting certain things on a
Speaker 1: fast food Like if you think about people trying to
Speaker 1: customize their fast food orders. Anyway. I worked at Osco
Speaker 1: drugstore for a summer, worked in did a paper delivery
Speaker 1: job for a while, plus a lot of babysitting. My
Speaker 1: kids have not, so I guess my older kids would
Speaker 1: have been old enough to have summer jobs. Certainly, I
Speaker 1: guess Jasper could have had a job last summer. He
Speaker 1: didn't wind up doing that. He wound up doing some
Speaker 1: other things. I don't know. They probably, I mean they
Speaker 1: babysit for me when I need it for Henry and Alex.
Speaker 1: Sometimes that is unpaid as part of your household duties,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it is paid because it's something I would
Speaker 1: have had to hire, you know, an adult sitter to do.
Speaker 1: If I'm doing something for work, for instance, I will
Speaker 1: usually pay them for doing it. But yeah, so anyway,
Speaker 1: this main set, I mean, are your kids gonna work?
Speaker 1: What do you think? So?
Speaker 2: Honestly, I mean, I think it depends. I think summer
Speaker 2: is the best time. I do see kids struggle sometimes,
Speaker 2: Like you know, I notice in my patients the ones
Speaker 2: that are trying to like do school activities and then
Speaker 2: also manage jobs during the school year. Some of them
Speaker 2: really do struggle, and I think it's a lot. But
Speaker 2: the summers are often wide open if they're past the
Speaker 2: kind of camp age. I think if a kid made
Speaker 2: a really serious case for like, I want to go
Speaker 2: to this specific experience and it wasn't a job, I'd
Speaker 2: be fine with it. But if there's not something else
Speaker 2: that they want to do. I think working is a
Speaker 2: great thing for them to do. I actually think camp
Speaker 2: counselor is something I would encourage all of my kids
Speaker 2: to at least consider because it's social and there's a
Speaker 2: fun camp atmosphere, but you also get that kind of
Speaker 2: responsibility piece, So it's a way to experience camp on
Speaker 2: a different level, but also probably gain some skills from
Speaker 2: it as well.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, No, that sounds like it might be fun.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's something I'll suggest for my kids to try out. So,
Speaker 1: you know, this episode is about how to love your
Speaker 1: job again. We're going to be looking at a couple
Speaker 1: of different areas. You know, we're going to be talking
Speaker 1: about passions such as it is. We're going to be
Speaker 1: talking about I have to look at my list.
Speaker 3: Their peace, laar.
Speaker 2: I think we came up with these in a brainstorming
Speaker 2: session and we were very proud of ourselves, so I
Speaker 2: think we should share the four p's even before. So
Speaker 2: there is passion, passion, there is people, there is progress,
Speaker 2: and there is pleasure. Yes, yeah, we're going to use
Speaker 2: that as our framework.
Speaker 1: Yes, but before we get to that, we do want
Speaker 1: to put in a little caveat here that if you
Speaker 1: are particularly unhappy in your job, and you're thinking that
Speaker 1: maybe you want to find a new job, you should
Speaker 1: totally go for it. I mean, I hear these stories
Speaker 1: from people all the time. They talk themselves into all
Speaker 1: sorts of limiting beliefs about their current employments, such as,
Speaker 1: I'll never find another job that's this flexible. Right, So,
Speaker 1: maybe you've achieved a certain sort of work life balance.
Speaker 1: The work doesn't interest you, maybe it's not even paying
Speaker 1: as much as you're probably worth. But you're like, how
Speaker 1: will I ever find another boss who lets me do X,
Speaker 1: Y and Z whenever I want? Well, let's hear about it.
Speaker 1: The labor market is just so much less flexible than,
Speaker 1: so much less efficient than the capital markets. Like money
Speaker 1: tends to go wherever because a dollar is worth the
Speaker 1: same in anything, So if something's getting much better returns
Speaker 1: over time, more people are going to go there, like
Speaker 1: pretty quickly. But the labor market, the job you have
Speaker 1: is one that was available when you were looking and
Speaker 1: that you knew about, right, And so if you think
Speaker 1: about all those constraints on what you would have found,
Speaker 1: there is absolutely no guarantee that you would have optimized
Speaker 1: on any dimension. So if you haven't optimized on any dimension.
Speaker 1: That means it's actually possible to improve on multiple dimensions
Speaker 1: at the same time. So it is entirely possible that
Speaker 1: you will find a job that you like more, that
Speaker 1: is more flexible, and that pays you more, Like you
Speaker 1: just don't know until you look, So why not work
Speaker 1: your network see what's out there. This is a good
Speaker 1: exercise at any point. I mean, if for no other
Speaker 1: reason then you can see what other people are maybe
Speaker 1: earning and work your way into a raise. That's all
Speaker 1: worth trying. But a generally good job is also like
Speaker 1: I would guess, a generally good marriage. If we're going
Speaker 1: to use this metaphor here, Everything goes through ups and downs,
Speaker 1: and what you get out of it is going to
Speaker 1: be a function of what you're putting into it. So
Speaker 1: you can look for a new job, but there's also
Speaker 1: no guarantee that will be perfect. And if any of
Speaker 1: the issues in your current job in any way stem
Speaker 1: from you, like, those are absolutely going to be repeated
Speaker 1: in a new situation. So if you you know, have
Speaker 1: this in your mind, like, oh, it's impossible to hire
Speaker 1: good people like, you may find it's also a hospital
Speaker 1: to hire new people in your new job, Like it's
Speaker 1: maybe that you aren't you looking for the right things
Speaker 1: in people. If you're like, oh, people you know never
Speaker 1: respect boundaries, and then you get to a new job
Speaker 1: and you're like, wow, people don't respect boundaries here too. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe we need to be a little bit more firm
Speaker 1: in those boundaries. So anyway, just something to keep in
Speaker 1: mind there.
Speaker 3: I like that.
Speaker 2: I like that thought about the kind of job market
Speaker 2: not being one that's optimized by pressures. I think that
Speaker 2: is something to reflect on, even though we're not encouraging
Speaker 2: people to necessarily go job shopping in this episode. That
Speaker 2: was not the point, but I had never thought about
Speaker 2: it that way, So I think that's kind of interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Sarah, you've done a lot of things in
Speaker 1: your current job to improve it over the years and
Speaker 1: to make it a better fit. Maybe you can share
Speaker 1: some of those with our listeners.
Speaker 2: Yes, so I have definitely gone along the route of
Speaker 2: kind of customize and tweak my own job rather than
Speaker 2: trying other jobs. Because I am still in my first
Speaker 2: job out of Fellowship training. I've been there over a
Speaker 2: decade now, at the same healthcare system, but my role
Speaker 2: has definitely changed, and it's changed a lot because I
Speaker 2: do a lot of reflection on like I like this,
Speaker 2: I don't like this, this works, this doesn't work. And
Speaker 2: so I have gone from entirely clinical to being in
Speaker 2: kind of clinical slash hybrid leadership role, to having the
Speaker 2: leadership role be a major part of my job with
Speaker 2: numerous kind of leadership tracks things going on, to then
Speaker 2: deciding that I preferred to focus more on my creative
Speaker 2: pursuits because I found myself wanting to do that more
Speaker 2: and more anyway and didn't feel like I could give
Speaker 2: my all to both realms, And then dialing back to
Speaker 2: my current iteration, which is sixty percent clinical, forty percent
Speaker 2: working for myself. So a lot of that has just
Speaker 2: taken you know, reflective time conversations with my husband, thinking
Speaker 2: about what I like to do during the week and
Speaker 2: what I don't, thinking about what stresses me out and
Speaker 2: takes away from the rest of my life and what doesn't,
Speaker 2: and even like down to the minutia level, like we
Speaker 2: talk about like how your time is spent. I think
Speaker 2: one thing that helped me kind of I guess optimize.
Speaker 2: The parts that I still have are to think about,
Speaker 2: like what needs to be me doing it and what
Speaker 2: am I good at and enjoy and what could more
Speaker 2: easily be either eliminated or outsourced. My example here being
Speaker 2: I want to spend face to face time with patients,
Speaker 2: being able able to sit there and answer their questions
Speaker 2: without seeming rushed. And I don't want to be playing
Speaker 2: with the fax machine because one of those requires me
Speaker 2: and really benefits from my training and just generally me
Speaker 2: being present as a human and one of them. Someone
Speaker 2: else can can make the facts machine probably work better
Speaker 2: than I can, because I'm really not good at faxing things.
Speaker 1: It's surprising that people are still faxing things. I guess
Speaker 1: that's just what it is. The one area where it's like,
Speaker 1: we have this thing, we have the Internet, which sends
Speaker 1: stuff digitally, but I guess faxes work as well. But yeah,
Speaker 1: Sarah's totally right about the idea of needing to figure
Speaker 1: out where your time is going at work. Like we
Speaker 1: can often talk about how happy we are with various
Speaker 1: things just in abstractions, and that may not actually be
Speaker 1: all that helpful. So actually try, as a first step
Speaker 1: to loving your job again, try tracking your time at work.
Speaker 1: I always think people should track all their time, all
Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty eight hours of the week. So
Speaker 1: you might want to do that partly because sometimes work
Speaker 1: slips into other crevices of the week, right, you know,
Speaker 1: it's quite possible that you do some work at night,
Speaker 1: or maybe you sometimes do work on the weekends or
Speaker 1: something like that, and it's helpful to know exactly what
Speaker 1: the shape of that is. But then also what you're
Speaker 1: doing during standard working hours, Like you know, how much
Speaker 1: of your time is spent on the things that you like,
Speaker 1: how much time is spent on the things that you
Speaker 1: don't like. Are the stories you are telling yourself accurate?
Speaker 1: I know, we just did our time tracking challenge a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago on my blog and in my newsletters,
Speaker 1: and one of the things I pointed out to people
Speaker 1: is I clocked thirty eight hours of work for the week,
Speaker 1: which is pretty typical for me. I'm almost always somewhere
Speaker 1: between thirty five and forty hours. But I worked at
Speaker 1: least three week nights after six pm. I worked on
Speaker 1: both weekend days in order for it to hit that
Speaker 1: thirty eight hours. And so if I was telling myself
Speaker 1: a story of like, look how overworked I am because
Speaker 1: I'm working at night and on the weekends. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure that would be entirely accurate, given that I'm only
Speaker 1: clocking thirty eight hours a week. Right, what's actually going
Speaker 1: on is that I am, through choice and through happenstance,
Speaker 1: often doing things that are not work during working hours,
Speaker 1: and in order to actually get all the work I
Speaker 1: have to do done, I need to use those night
Speaker 1: and weekend hours. So it's a different story that's more
Speaker 1: stort of, like, well, maybe if I don't like working
Speaker 1: at nights and weekends, I need to change up my
Speaker 1: work days to be a little bit more focused or
Speaker 1: you know, not do stuff with the kids after school.
Speaker 1: But if I decide that, like, actually I'm okay with
Speaker 1: stopping work at four o'clock to deal with kids, then
Speaker 1: the nights and weekends are just going to be part
Speaker 1: of it. So, you know, you want to make sure
Speaker 1: you're telling yourself a story and also what you're doing
Speaker 1: during those working hours. So let's take a quick ad
Speaker 1: break and then we will be back with more on
Speaker 1: making work work for you. Well, we are back talking
Speaker 1: how to love your job again. It is February, we
Speaker 1: are coming into Valentine's Day, and you know we want
Speaker 1: to think about all the things we love in our lives,
Speaker 1: and hopefully we love our work too. And if we're
Speaker 1: not truly in love with our work, there are maybe
Speaker 1: ways that we can become a little bit more enamored
Speaker 1: with our current jobs. We just talked about tracking our time,
Speaker 1: and now we're going to look at the four dimensions
Speaker 1: of passion people, productivity, and pleasure and passion first might
Speaker 1: be slightly tricky. We don't all have to be what
Speaker 1: we wanted to be when we grow up. You know,
Speaker 1: we wanted to be a ballerina or an astronaut. Maybe
Speaker 1: we have some ballerinas and astronauts listening to this show,
Speaker 1: But probably most people wound up in other things. And
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that everyone dreamed of being, say, an
Speaker 1: insurance executive when you grew up. But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: there are probably things within that that you are very
Speaker 1: passionate about, whether that is mentoring your colleagues, whether that
Speaker 1: is designing better products, whatever it happens to be. So
Speaker 1: as you look at your time log, you might want
Speaker 1: to say, well, what are the favorite parts of my
Speaker 1: job in terms of how I am spending my hours,
Speaker 1: and then set yourself a goal could you spend at
Speaker 1: least one more hour beyond what you are currently spending
Speaker 1: over the next week, and the parts of your job
Speaker 1: that you love. So, Sarah, what are your favorite parts
Speaker 1: of your job?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm going to focus on my non clinical job,
Speaker 2: and actually I'm going to do a tiny detour because
Speaker 2: when you're talking about passion, it definitely like reminded me
Speaker 2: of the fact that I've heard some people talk about
Speaker 2: following your passion to choose your career and other people
Speaker 2: talking about how that's a terrible idea. So there's like
Speaker 2: interesting conflicting ideas about this. But I think we are
Speaker 2: getting to an interesting middle ground here, which is like, Okay,
Speaker 2: you're not necessarily going to be that football player that
Speaker 2: you were dreaming about in second grade, but can you
Speaker 2: find some piece of what you're doing to be passionate
Speaker 2: about and maybe try to grow at that piece. So
Speaker 2: that's kind of where we fall on the spectrum of
Speaker 2: following your passion. I really enjoy writing, I like connecting
Speaker 2: with others. I love talking about planning and organizing and activity,
Speaker 2: and I do enjoy speaking. The more I do it,
Speaker 2: the more I'm just happy that I'm comfortable doing it.
Speaker 2: And it becomes really fun. And so I am really
Speaker 2: happy that I've been able to kind of expand those
Speaker 2: pieces of my non clinical work, not teaching courses, you know,
Speaker 2: doing presentations and that kind of a thing, as well
Speaker 2: as I've always enjoyed writing, and there's a lot of
Speaker 2: writing that goes in even though I'm not an author
Speaker 2: or like writer like that, I'm churning out a lot
Speaker 2: of scripts and a lot of content, and so I
Speaker 2: feel like I get to connect with that part of
Speaker 2: what I enjoy on a regular basis.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I definitely like the writing aspect. I like
Speaker 1: sharing content with people. Certainly, I love recording these podcasts.
Speaker 1: I love interacting with our Patreon community and things like that. So,
Speaker 1: you know, really drilled down into what are the parts
Speaker 1: of your job you love best, try and spend an
Speaker 1: extra hour over the next week on that. And then
Speaker 1: of course there is the things you love the least.
Speaker 1: What are your least favorite parts of your job as
Speaker 1: you look at how you are spending hours, and the
Speaker 1: goal is could you spend one hour less on those
Speaker 1: things over the course of the week. So, Sarah, I
Speaker 1: know you recently worked on your patient checkout template, right
Speaker 1: as a way to spend less time on things that
Speaker 1: were related to like printing in fax machines, and more
Speaker 1: time with the actual patient interaction.
Speaker 2: Yes, I had this habit of it started when I
Speaker 2: first began working where I worked, where I felt like
Speaker 2: sometimes patients didn't have a clear idea of what they
Speaker 2: needed at the checkout desk, meaning like what lab orders
Speaker 2: do they need? When do they need to schedule the
Speaker 2: next appointment? Like will they actually get the instructions that
Speaker 2: I write out for them, because there's something called an
Speaker 2: after visit summary and we can actually type that up
Speaker 2: in the room for them to see it, but for
Speaker 2: them to actually get a physical copy of that, which
Speaker 2: some people still really like having it physically, I would
Speaker 2: wonder about it, And so I spent a lot of
Speaker 2: time running around printing it out myself, printing out the
Speaker 2: labs myself, handing them to the patient, and then like
Speaker 2: kind of walking them to the front desk. And then
Speaker 2: I went to an ORTHO appointment when I had hurt
Speaker 2: my knee, and I saw that he had given me
Speaker 2: a checkout sheet that basically had checkboxes of what types
Speaker 2: of orders were needed when the appointment needed to be
Speaker 2: happened and then it like checked off that, like the
Speaker 2: person at the front needed to give my instructions and
Speaker 2: he just did that with a pen. So it's super quick,
Speaker 2: like at the very end of the visit. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: he works with the same organization I do. I'm like,
Speaker 2: I can do that too. So I made my own
Speaker 2: checkout sheet, and you know what, it has been awesome.
Speaker 3: And I'm not kidding.
Speaker 2: I think I saved myself an hour a day, because
Speaker 2: even if it's five minutes a day, that only takes
Speaker 2: twelve patients to like save me an hour a day
Speaker 2: of running around and chasing around pronounce and then the
Speaker 2: printer's out of paper and I have to go find
Speaker 2: the paper and like, oh my god. So it's been
Speaker 2: It's so silly and it's so small, but I'm so
Speaker 2: happy to then maybe have that hour back to spend
Speaker 2: in the room talking to people, answering questions, et cetera.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now that's a big win. And I imagine that
Speaker 1: a lot of people have. I mean, especially if you're
Speaker 1: only aiming for one hour a week, Like one hour
Speaker 1: a day might be hard for a lot of people
Speaker 1: to engineer into their lives, but an hour a week
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it's some meeting that has outlived its usefulness.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a meeting that is useful but doesn't need
Speaker 1: to take as much time as it's taking. Maybe it's
Speaker 1: a meeting that you've been doing in person that actually
Speaker 1: could be done by zoom and so you could minimize
Speaker 1: the travel time. I mean, even if people are in
Speaker 1: the same complex but you're on opposite sides of it.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can save ten minutes of walking back
Speaker 1: and forth. If if it's something that's you know, an
Speaker 1: already established relationship and it's more of a check in
Speaker 1: as opposed to building a new relationship, it could be
Speaker 1: that you spend a little bit less time on email.
Speaker 1: I know that's a productivity drain for a lot of
Speaker 1: people to feel like they are always in their inbox.
Speaker 1: And so the question is do you actually need to
Speaker 1: be always in your inbox? Are you doing that to yourself?
Speaker 1: I'm not saying only check it once a day or
Speaker 1: anything like that, but you might be able to check
Speaker 1: I don't know four times a day or five or
Speaker 1: six times a day, but five or six times a
Speaker 1: day is very different from like in and out every
Speaker 1: ten minutes. Over the course of an eight hour day,
Speaker 1: which is what a lot of people, or.
Speaker 2: Just keeping it open and then every time you're you
Speaker 2: know what, lands at it and triage it like oh
Speaker 2: my god and.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and you might be able to spend significantly
Speaker 1: less time processing it if you are batching that task,
Speaker 1: for instance. So or maybe there's something you've been doing
Speaker 1: forever that you are a total rock star at and
Speaker 1: it's really time to start training someone else on it.
Speaker 1: Obviously they won't do it nearly as well as you
Speaker 1: the first time. Maybe they won't do it as well
Speaker 1: as you the first ten times, but you know, by
Speaker 1: eleventh time on, it's it's going to be a pretty
Speaker 1: good substitute for what you are doing, and so that
Speaker 1: can buy yourself an extra hour as well. So speaking
Speaker 1: of other people, we work with, colleagues and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: that is the second dimension because many times there's been
Speaker 1: some fascinating research on this. And you know, Gallup asks
Speaker 1: a question about whether you have a best work friend,
Speaker 1: and it's one of the answers that is most highly
Speaker 1: correlated with how engaged and satisfied people are with their jobs,
Speaker 1: because the truth is, if you're spending time with somebody Monday,
Speaker 1: through Friday that you would be willing to spend time
Speaker 1: with after work, and on the weekends too, you get
Speaker 1: a little bit of that like happiness that you would
Speaker 1: have had from the weekend in your weekday right that
Speaker 1: you are actually enjoying the time you are spending at
Speaker 1: work because you are enjoying this other person's company. Now,
Speaker 1: I honest say, I don't know that you have to
Speaker 1: have like a best friend, but having a group of
Speaker 1: people that you truly enjoy hanging out with at work
Speaker 1: can like massively increase your satisfaction. And this is not
Speaker 1: just random. I mean sometimes like you meet someone wonderful
Speaker 1: who just comes up and decides that they are going
Speaker 1: to be your best friend, and it's great, But it
Speaker 1: usually doesn't work like that. It's usually that you have
Speaker 1: people that you genuinely like and then you try to
Speaker 1: move them a little bit up the friendship ladder by
Speaker 1: getting to know them, by arranging opportunities to see them
Speaker 1: and things like that. So, Sarah, I know, I mean,
Speaker 1: you obviously see your clinical colleagues just by virtue of
Speaker 1: being in the office a lot, but how have you
Speaker 1: nurtured those relationships over time?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't feel like I have one best work friend,
Speaker 2: but I have a lot of good work friends, like
Speaker 2: a lot. Like I have the ones at work, I
Speaker 2: have ones that are actually at other institutions that are
Speaker 2: more from training, that we connect on work matters every
Speaker 2: once in a while and we get to hang out
Speaker 2: in person conferences and stuff. But one thing I've done
Speaker 2: that's been very like intentional and Amy, if you're listening
Speaker 2: to this because you listened last time, Yes, I'm going
Speaker 2: to break she said, Oh I heard you talk about
Speaker 2: us on the podcast, so I'm going to do it
Speaker 2: again on purpose. So we do Friday lunches and I'm
Speaker 2: usually the one that sends a text that's like lunch
Speaker 2: everyone that it goes out to, like several endocrinologists, some
Speaker 2: in the adult world, some in the pediatric world. I
Speaker 2: think we're going to add like an adult endosurgeon to
Speaker 2: that list too. You have to have some endochronology angle.
Speaker 1: It can be more inclusive Sarah's exclusive lunch clubs.
Speaker 2: And sometimes it happens, and sometimes it doesn't because we
Speaker 2: have meetings are a late patient. But when it happens,
Speaker 2: it's great, and it's just like a no brainer because
Speaker 2: like we all have an easy place to eat, and
Speaker 2: it's one of those things like you've decided it once
Speaker 2: and then you can just like keep doing it. So
Speaker 2: that's been really fun and I feel like has helped
Speaker 2: deepen those relationships. And I also have to say my
Speaker 2: colleague is like having that friendship with my clinical colleagues
Speaker 2: can make really stressful times so much better. I feel
Speaker 2: very lucky to work with the people that I work with,
Speaker 2: and we do a few social things outside of work,
Speaker 2: but we also always are there to support each other
Speaker 2: when we need help, like how do I help treat
Speaker 2: this patient or whatever. To be able to go to
Speaker 2: someone that you really respect and also like it just
Speaker 2: makes the whole.
Speaker 3: Thing more fun.
Speaker 2: And then on the podcasting side, Laura, I mean, we're
Speaker 2: obviously like podcast besties, and then I also have like
Speaker 2: made some other podcasting friends, so that's also super fun
Speaker 2: and has just you know, made the whole thing more enjoyable.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's exciting that I get to like chat with
Speaker 1: Sarah for multiple hours per week. It's like something I
Speaker 1: would enjoy doing even if I wasn't recording it. And
Speaker 1: then we get to record it and turn it into
Speaker 1: something that everyone else can listen to. As well, So yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean think about ways you might do this. So
Speaker 1: obviously a weekly lunch is great, Like Friday works for
Speaker 1: Sarah because she's in the office that day. A lot
Speaker 1: of people I know in more corporate jobs Fridays your
Speaker 1: work from home day. So maybe it's third, right, that's
Speaker 1: a good way that you kind of cap off the
Speaker 1: week by meeting your work besties in person on Thursday.
Speaker 1: You know, it might be just that you try to
Speaker 1: grab coffee with the same group of people when you're
Speaker 1: in the office in mid afternoon, or go for a
Speaker 1: walk together. That's something that you could arrange. And obviously
Speaker 1: doing a work project together is a good way to
Speaker 1: guarantee that you will see that person a lot, you know,
Speaker 1: and you can't always control this, like sometimes we get
Speaker 1: staffed on things that are just because you are an
Speaker 1: expert in this and your good friends are in something
Speaker 1: totally different, so you're not going to wind up on
Speaker 1: the same project. But if you ever can arrange it
Speaker 1: so that you are working on something to gather, then
Speaker 1: that will be a lot of time built into the day,
Speaker 1: just as reality. So the next p progress we had
Speaker 1: to make this all work together. Work is more satisfying
Speaker 1: when it feels productive and you are looking forward to
Speaker 1: the future. Right, So, two goals that we can do
Speaker 1: in the next week or so. One is, could you
Speaker 1: cross everything off your priority list for the week? And second,
Speaker 1: do you have something coming up that you are genuinely
Speaker 1: looking forward to? And I think both of those can
Speaker 1: be helped by a good planning ritual. You know, longtime
Speaker 1: listeners know, I try to plan my weeks on Fridays
Speaker 1: or Thursdays, but toward the end of the working week,
Speaker 1: looking forward to the next week, saying what is most
Speaker 1: important for me to do, and then the goal is
Speaker 1: to have all those things crossed off by the end
Speaker 1: of next Friday, unless you know, I know I'm going
Speaker 1: to do it on a Saturday or Sunday, in which
Speaker 1: case that's fine, I can put it then, But to
Speaker 1: end the week with all of those things crossed off,
Speaker 1: because then that feels incredibly satisfying. Now, obviously, life happens.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here debilitated in my bed. Not everything that
Speaker 1: was supposed to happen this week has happened. But I
Speaker 1: find though that if you know what is absolutely most important,
Speaker 1: you can still get to those things even if you
Speaker 1: don't get to everything, so that exercise of identifying what
Speaker 1: would be absolutely most important, then you can still make
Speaker 1: sure that you focus on those and whatever limited work
Speaker 1: time you have. So even if your kids are homesick
Speaker 1: from school or you've got snow days or whatever else,
Speaker 1: you may have only done the three most important things,
Speaker 1: but you've done them and so you still feel this
Speaker 1: incredible sense of progress. So Sarah, you do that. I
Speaker 1: know you have your planning rituals all carved out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And I was going to say some of
Speaker 2: that is just the awareness that you've thought about them,
Speaker 2: that you did it and you've got it done, and
Speaker 2: kind of giving yourself credit and celebrating because we often
Speaker 2: forget to do that. But yeah, I think that you know,
Speaker 2: we're humans. We are designed to like have quests and
Speaker 2: then meet the quest and then get the next quest.
Speaker 2: And you know there are exceptions to that. At different
Speaker 2: times of life. Sometimes you may feel less driven by
Speaker 2: this kind of thing. And then sometimes I think when
Speaker 2: you are in one of those phases of life, you
Speaker 2: can actually look for almost like metaprogress. Like so for example,
Speaker 2: if you're like, I don't want to tackle anything, but
Speaker 2: I have a newborn baby, and like my goal is
Speaker 2: to just earn my paycheck for the next ever moerever
Speaker 2: many months, or just like earn these paid time off
Speaker 2: days that I'm going to use in a fun way
Speaker 2: in the future. Like again, like that's not really what
Speaker 2: we're getting at, but there are phases of life fore
Speaker 2: sometimes you just kind of have to be really really
Speaker 2: basic in what you're progressing to. And then even on
Speaker 2: a micro level, I have always felt a weird comfort
Speaker 2: in creating little checkboxes for every patient I see and
Speaker 2: then checking them off throughout the day. I have no
Speaker 2: idea like why this helps me, but I think it's
Speaker 2: because I get to do something that like acknowledges my
Speaker 2: sense of progress, and then I get to at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, I see that like I did
Speaker 2: all that I set out to do during that clinical day.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think noticing your progress, acknowledging your progress,
Speaker 2: and looking forward in different levels depending on where you
Speaker 2: are in life can be appropriate.
Speaker 1: And then making sure you always have something to look
Speaker 1: forward to as well. I know I'm looking forward to
Speaker 1: our hopefully upcoming retreat Sarah and I do regular podcasting
Speaker 1: retreats where we plan the upcoming season, think about what
Speaker 1: we're doing guests. We'd like to have topics. We want
Speaker 1: to cover any sort of business related kind of things.
Speaker 1: Hopefully I will be walking again, but then you.
Speaker 3: Know, I might have to move it to Philadelphia. We'll see.
Speaker 1: So if it would be in my bedroom, I really hope.
Speaker 1: I have so much stuff I have to do over
Speaker 1: the next two months, I cannot still be in my
Speaker 1: bed bound. Oh my goodness, Oh dear, Well, there you go.
Speaker 1: And then the last p is pleasure and work is
Speaker 1: more fun when each day features little treats. And for
Speaker 1: the vast majority of jobs, the easiest way to do
Speaker 1: this is to take real, intentional breaks. Right, So, even
Speaker 1: if the substance of your job isn't magical ballerina and
Speaker 1: astronaut related actors, although both of those groups still have
Speaker 1: to do all kinds of hard stuff and tedious stuff
Speaker 1: in the course of their lives. Like don't get me wrong,
Speaker 1: it may sound magical, but I'm sure they are also
Speaker 1: in meetings and doing administrative stuff and hours of training
Speaker 1: for whatever. But you know, just that you have little
Speaker 1: breaks in the course of the day where you do
Speaker 1: something that you truly love. So your goal for the
Speaker 1: week is to create a break portfolio for each day.
Speaker 1: So look at your schedule, think roughly, where could I
Speaker 1: schedule in two tiny breaks and one lunch. What would
Speaker 1: this ideally look like, what would the rhythm be, and
Speaker 1: what would you do on those breaks that would be
Speaker 1: enjoyable to you? So, Sarah, you you know you've tried
Speaker 1: to be pretty good about your lunch breaks over the years.
Speaker 2: Yes, although confession is that my current lunch break a
Speaker 2: lot of times I take a break from my clinical
Speaker 2: job to write a blog post. So I'm like taking
Speaker 2: a break from one job to do another. But I
Speaker 2: enjoy writing boost stuff. It's it's fun stuff, right, and
Speaker 2: I usually have time leftover to then like that's when
Speaker 2: I browse other people's blogs for my first patient rooms.
Speaker 3: So that's my current. In the past, I've done walking.
Speaker 2: I don't do that currently because I run so much
Speaker 2: in the morning, I like don't.
Speaker 3: Need to move after that generally.
Speaker 2: And then I have little micro breaks that I take
Speaker 2: sometimes where I do duo lingo because that only takes
Speaker 2: about ten minutes. And then social breaks just be like, okay,
Speaker 2: let me walk around and see what everybody is up to,
Speaker 2: especially on a Friday, you want to like say hi
Speaker 2: to everyone, see what they're doing on the weekend. So
Speaker 2: sometimes my breaks are as simple as like just literally
Speaker 2: do a lap around the office.
Speaker 3: Then I can stop at the bathroom.
Speaker 1: Too, multipurpose break there. Yeah, you have to deal with
Speaker 1: the biology as well, you know. I definitely like listening
Speaker 1: to my bock. That's so listening to inspiring music is
Speaker 1: something that you could do during a little break in work.
Speaker 1: I was doing stretches when I was mobile. We'll see
Speaker 1: how the back exercises come back into my life. They will,
Speaker 1: But taking a little break on that one, I like
Speaker 1: to go for a walk around my yard. We've got
Speaker 1: some nice tree areas that I can get into from
Speaker 1: my yard, and so I definitely like to go through
Speaker 1: that and sort of observe the changing seasons. It's all
Speaker 1: snowy now, but in the summer it'll be all green,
Speaker 1: so it's very different to see the same nature. And
Speaker 1: going for a walk is always a mood booster. Try
Speaker 1: and have lunch with If my husband is working from home,
Speaker 1: we'll try to take lunch at the same time so
Speaker 1: we can hang out and that's always a nice thing
Speaker 1: to do. But obviously if you are in an office,
Speaker 1: you know, having lunch with a friend, going for a walk,
Speaker 1: you know, listening to music or reading something inspiring. Those
Speaker 1: are all ways that you can put little doses of
Speaker 1: pleasure into your day. So really put some thought into
Speaker 1: this into your break portfolio over the week, and I
Speaker 1: think you'll find yourself liking your job a lot more
Speaker 1: so for dimensions, remember passion, trying to spend an hour
Speaker 1: more on the stuff you like and an hour less
Speaker 1: on the stuff you don't like. People, making sure that
Speaker 1: you see the people you like at your job and
Speaker 1: trying to move them a little bit up the friendship
Speaker 1: ladder through learning more about them and spending more time together.
Speaker 1: Progress setting your priority list for the week and getting
Speaker 1: through ever it, all of it, and making sure you
Speaker 1: have something that you are looking forward to in your
Speaker 1: working life. And then pleasure in terms of taking your
Speaker 1: break portfolio over the course of the day. So I
Speaker 1: think all of that might help you like your job
Speaker 1: a little bit more.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 2: And now we're going to pivot entirely because our question
Speaker 2: this week has absolutely nothing to do with loving your job,
Speaker 2: but we thought it was a fun question, So we're
Speaker 2: going to include it. So this was a question that
Speaker 2: was sent primarily to Laura since you'll see why in
Speaker 2: a second, which is basically tell us about the dog.
Speaker 2: What are the pros and cons of getting a dog?
Speaker 2: How much of the dog is your responsibility? And do
Speaker 2: you regret getting a dog?
Speaker 1: Tread carefully on that. I know we have a ton
Speaker 1: of dog lovers listening to this podcast, and there are
Speaker 1: a lot of dog lovers in the world. I have
Speaker 1: never been a dog person, you know, I didn't grow
Speaker 1: up with one. It's not something that I was ever
Speaker 1: excited about doing. My husband did grow up with dogs
Speaker 1: and sort of felt like this was something that he
Speaker 1: wanted our kids to experience. You know. Kids, of course
Speaker 1: always love the idea of having a dog, like that's
Speaker 1: just it's often kids lobbying for it, but there's sort
Speaker 1: of the trope of the kid's lobby for it, and
Speaker 1: then they don't do the work of taking care of
Speaker 1: the dog. And I think in many families what winds
Speaker 1: up happening is because mom is more flexible, or is
Speaker 1: home more or whatever else, or is just more responsible,
Speaker 1: she winds up doing the vast majority of the work.
Speaker 1: Whoever wanted the dog, now I can say in my
Speaker 1: family that has not happened because I was very very
Speaker 1: clear at the outset, this is my husband's dog. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm here like so, yes, I guess I'm a dog
Speaker 1: mom too, but he is primarily responsible for it, so
Speaker 1: he walks the dog or he has our children do
Speaker 1: it now if he is gone for the day, right,
Speaker 1: because obviously he has a job, and as do I,
Speaker 1: but you know, I'm more off and here at the house.
Speaker 1: If he's working from home, he is the one who
Speaker 1: takes the dog out. If he is not working from home,
Speaker 1: he often either leaves a little bit later so the
Speaker 1: dog can go and tell our kids are home from school,
Speaker 1: and then our fourteen year old is responsible for the dog.
Speaker 1: If my husband is not here, he has gone to
Speaker 1: doggy daycare. So if my husband is working in the
Speaker 1: office two days a week, sometimes he'll just bring the
Speaker 1: dog to doggy daycare two times a week, which, by
Speaker 1: the way, Max loves doggy daycare. So you know, I
Speaker 1: know some people would feel guilt about putting their kids
Speaker 1: in daycare. People feel guilt about putting their dogs in daycare.
Speaker 1: Let me just say that he is the times I've
Speaker 1: brought him, he is racing out of the car to
Speaker 1: try to get into this place. He's so excited, So
Speaker 1: there's really no guilt with this. And then if my
Speaker 1: husband is traveling for multiple days, we will also actually
Speaker 1: sometimes send the dog over to his favorite dog sitter,
Speaker 1: which again one might feel guilt about this, but the
Speaker 1: dog sitter is often caring for two or three dogs
Speaker 1: at a time, and so Max is like it's a party.
Speaker 1: He is so excited he is bounding out of the
Speaker 1: car to get to her house and playing with his
Speaker 1: friends there. So what this means is that while I
Speaker 1: do wind up taking care of Max, sometimes it is
Speaker 1: not really always my responsibility. And so if you are
Speaker 1: not the one who wants the dog, I think you
Speaker 1: need to be very clear about your boundaries with how
Speaker 1: the care will happen for it. Now, in the case
Speaker 1: of this listener, it turns out that she is the
Speaker 1: one who really wants the dog and her husband is
Speaker 1: way way more mixed on this concept. And in similar
Speaker 1: fashion to us, her husband is the one who works
Speaker 1: from home. So I said, you know, you need to
Speaker 1: have a conversation with him about this, like what he
Speaker 1: is willing to do, because by default it would be
Speaker 1: his job unless you specifically figure out something else. And
Speaker 1: so I think they're going to work out a system
Speaker 1: as well where the dog goes to doggy daycarea of
Speaker 1: few times a week and then the dog is home
Speaker 1: when she is home because she can work from home
Speaker 1: at least once or twice a week as well, and
Speaker 1: so kids can help too. Just keep in mind that
Speaker 1: kids are at school from like eight to four each
Speaker 1: day and general, and a dog is going to need
Speaker 1: to be walked at least once in there, I mean,
Speaker 1: just for exercise and for sanitation. So you're gonna either
Speaker 1: have to hire someone to do it, the person who
Speaker 1: works from home is gonna have to do it, or're
Speaker 1: gonna have to figure out something else. To just be
Speaker 1: very clear on this and then so everyone is on
Speaker 1: board with it.
Speaker 3: We're not getting into a dog.
Speaker 1: Yes, Sarah, You're not getting a dog. No. Not hard
Speaker 1: so hard no.
Speaker 3: In the younger household, hard no for now, hard no
Speaker 3: for now.
Speaker 2: At one point when the kids were much younger, I
Speaker 2: was like, twenty twenty four, we could get a.
Speaker 3: Dog, ha ha.
Speaker 2: Around twenty twenty two, I was like, twenty twenty four,
Speaker 2: we will not get a dog.
Speaker 3: Similarly, I'm not really a dog person. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: It doesn't make me a horrible human. I love individual dog,
Speaker 2: Like you know, my sister's dog is super cute, My
Speaker 2: in livees dog is super cute, but I don't personally
Speaker 2: want one. I know how much work it is, I
Speaker 2: know how much time my husband has, I know how
Speaker 2: my kids will handle this, and it's just not going
Speaker 2: to work for us. Now. I could totally see the
Speaker 2: benefits of a dog, like when my kids have grown up,
Speaker 2: and like we have much more flexible schedules together because
Speaker 2: I think for certain people, like it gets them outside,
Speaker 2: it gets them active, it might get them social and
Speaker 2: ways they wouldn't otherwise. So I'm not ruling out a
Speaker 2: dog in my lifetime, but not in this season. Just
Speaker 2: in case anyone was curious, But your dog is awesome,
Speaker 2: don't worry.
Speaker 1: I love your dog, yeah exactly. You know. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: just go in with your eyes open. That's what I
Speaker 1: was saying. Like, you know, kids will help, but they
Speaker 1: usually have to be asked. You need an adult who
Speaker 1: is primarily responsible. And if the adult who would be
Speaker 1: more flexible is not the one who is excited about
Speaker 1: the dog, you need to make sure that you reach
Speaker 1: a situation where that person is not going to be
Speaker 1: resentful of what's going on, because obviously, once the dog
Speaker 1: is part of the family, they're there and they're to
Speaker 1: be there for many years. So you know, you want
Speaker 1: everyone to be happy with the setup. So Love of
Speaker 1: the Week. I'm not currently experiencing this right now as
Speaker 1: I'm sitting in my bed, but in my home office
Speaker 1: when I can make it down there, I have a
Speaker 1: gas fireplace. It's this old library. It was this you know,
Speaker 1: we renovated this historic house a couple of years ago,
Speaker 1: and so it's the old library space that I've turned
Speaker 1: into my home office. And so it's so wonderful just
Speaker 1: to be able to click on a remote and have
Speaker 1: a fire in my office and it's very cozy if
Speaker 1: I'm like reading or doing some sort of deep writing
Speaker 1: work and like, ah, I feel like I'm inspired just
Speaker 1: by the flames going.
Speaker 3: I even like those Netflix fireplace scene.
Speaker 1: It's treat to turn that on.
Speaker 2: We had a fireplace in Miami Beach, which is hilarious
Speaker 2: and it got used like five It was a gas fireplace.
Speaker 2: We probably used it five times a year.
Speaker 1: But even though you could just start it on with
Speaker 1: a remote or with a click, like.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was a remote exactly. Yeah, but even then
Speaker 2: there was no reason. No, it was hot, like why.
Speaker 1: Would it hot?
Speaker 2: Okay, why would you why would you put a fire? Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was not just a visual. It was like it
Speaker 2: had a gas thing, so it was going to heat
Speaker 2: your area, and that we just didn't have a need
Speaker 2: for that all that. Often, my love of the week
Speaker 2: is my work colleagues and the fact that we're having
Speaker 2: a karaoke night soon. Karaoke so fun. It's especially fun
Speaker 2: with work colleagues, and I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1: What's your go to karaoke song?
Speaker 3: Sarah latyslav by Madonna?
Speaker 1: Excellent, good choice, good choice. All right, Well, this has
Speaker 1: been best of both worlds. We've been talking about how
Speaker 1: to love your job again. Hopefully people have gotten a
Speaker 1: few ideas from this about, you know, ways you can
Speaker 1: just increase the good stuff, maybe dial down a little
Speaker 1: bit of the bad stuff that's inevitable in every job,
Speaker 1: and feel some new energy towards your work in this
Speaker 1: new year. So we will be back next week with
Speaker 1: more on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
Speaker 2: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.
Speaker 1: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
Speaker 1: has been the.
Speaker 3: Best of both worlds podcasts.
Speaker 1: Please join us next time for more on making work
Speaker 1: and life work together.