1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: It was Thanksgiving the eve in nineteen eighty seven, and 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: after visiting her daughter at Wykoff Hospital in Queen's Maureene 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: Fernandez went to a few of her usual bars with 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: a man who was unfamiliar to the other bar patrons. 5 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: The next morning, her body was found in an empty 6 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: lot next to a stretch of the Long Island Railroad. 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: She had been stabbed thirty five times. Investigators spoke with 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: the bar patrons and a night watchman near the empty lot, 9 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: who described a white Cadillac type car leaving the lot 10 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: at four am. The detectives began looking into people who 11 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: worked at the hospital, and it turned out that a 12 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: security guard named Tavier Ramos owned a white Oldsmobile. Detectives 13 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: leaned hard on Ramos, extracting a confession about lending his 14 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: car to a friend named Richard Pereira. Ramos claimed Pereira 15 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: had returned the vehicle with a mysterious red liquid on 16 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: the passenger's side and admitted to the murder before Ramos 17 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: thoroughly cleaned the car. When Perrera was cleared in a lineup, 18 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: police arranged for Pereira to record a conversation with Ramos, 19 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: who admits to making up the story, even admitting that 20 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: his car battery was dead the night of the murder. 21 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: But instead of switching directions, the cops interrogate Ramos again, 22 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: extracting the same story with a new suspect, Felipe Rodriguez, 23 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 1: without the Perrera recording being presented at trial. Felipe ended 24 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: up spending over twenty six years in prison after being 25 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: identified by a man who knew nothing about the murder 26 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: of a woman whom Felipe had never even met. This 27 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful 28 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: Conviction with Jason Flamm. 29 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 2: That's me. 30 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: I'm your host, and today I am well you can 31 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: probably hear. I'm excited because we have not one, but 32 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: two of my favorite human beings on the show today. First, 33 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: Nina Morrison is the senior litigation attorney at the Innocence 34 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: Project in New York and just an all around certified 35 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: badass lawyer, human mom, person, friend, and so Nina, I'm 36 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: really excited to have you back on. 37 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 3: Welcome Thanks Jason. Great to be back. 38 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: And now, in our tradition of saving the best for last, 39 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: we have one of the kindest, gentlest, funniest and best 40 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: dressed humans that you're ever going to come across. So, 41 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: Felipe Rodriguez, welcome to wrongful conviction. 42 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 2: Thank you, Jesson, I appreciate it. 43 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: Felipa, Let's start at the beginning. You grew up in 44 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, right. 45 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: Yes, I was born in Ponsa, Puerto Rico, on August fifteen, 46 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five. 47 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: And you came to New York and at what time? 48 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 2: I actually came to New York with my mother and 49 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: my stepfather late seventies. I was like thirteen or fourteen 50 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: years old. 51 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: Can you just describe to us what your life was 52 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: like before for this incident in nineteen eighty seven. 53 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty five, I actually got married to my 54 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: now ex wife, Godus Rodriguez, and I had a kid 55 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: with her, Felippe Willando Diriguez Junior. He was born on 56 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 2: July second, nineteen eighty six. By eighty six, I started 57 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 2: working for a subcontracting company for the City of New York. 58 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,959 Speaker 2: I was getting paid good, I had good health care, 59 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 2: so I was being pretty well for myself. 60 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: And then you were implicated in a murder that you 61 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: had absolutely nothing to do with. And this particular murder 62 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: was really gruesome, Nina. Can you take us back to 63 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: the crime itself and how they came to say settle 64 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: because they settled on Felipe. 65 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, Felipe wasn't arrested and charged for this crime until 66 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 3: sixteen months after the victim in this case, Marine Fernandez, 67 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: was murdered. As you mentioned, it was an extraordinarily brutal crime. 68 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 3: She was stabbed thirty five times and her body was 69 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: found in a deserted lot in Queens, New York, near 70 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 3: the Long Island railroad tracks behind a food warehouse. Her 71 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 3: body was actually found on Thanksgiving morning. She had been 72 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 3: at a local hospital visiting her two year old daughter, 73 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 3: who was in the hospital the night before, went out 74 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 3: to a bar with a man that the other bar 75 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 3: patrons didn't recognize, but it was a bar that she 76 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 3: went to with some frequency, left there around two in 77 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 3: the morning and was never seen again. You know, we 78 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 3: get a lot of cases, Jason, where there's some reasonable 79 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 3: evidence pointing to our clients as a suspect, and then 80 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 3: later through DNA or further investigation or advanced science some 81 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 3: other evidence, we find the picture changes. And when we 82 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 3: at the Innocence Project took on Felipe's case. It was 83 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 3: just so clear that this investigation was pointing far away 84 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 3: from Felipe for the beginning, and eventually, sixteen months later, 85 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 3: when they had no viable suspect, the police just decided 86 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 3: to coerce witnesses and harsh Felipe. 87 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: The police had the description of the most likely culprit 88 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: from the bar patrons, right. 89 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: You know. 90 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 3: The thing that was so obvious was that the man 91 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 3: who was with the victims Fernandez at the bar, did 92 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 3: not remotely resemble Felibe. Felibe as your desk can see 93 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 3: if they google him as a tall, slender, very dark haired, 94 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 3: handsome man of Puerto Rican descent. And yet the man 95 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 3: at the bar, who was the last person to come 96 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 3: to the bar with and leave with the victim, the 97 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 3: obvious likely suspect, was described by witnesses as white or Italian, 98 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: clean shaven. Felipe, had a black mustache, stocky, which Felipe 99 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 3: definitely is not and never was, and had reddish brown 100 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 3: hair with hazel eyes. I mean, the list goes on 101 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 3: and on. 102 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: One of the patrons at the bar, Robert Thompson, who 103 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: was heavily intoxicated, said that he had tried to sell 104 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: a watch to Maureen Fernandez and the man she was with. 105 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: And then this Thompson described the potential perpetrator's hands as large, 106 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: calloused and wearing rings. Then later on he sort of 107 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: agreed with the detectives that the man may have had 108 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: writing on his left hand. Again, you wouldn't want to 109 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: hang a murder conviction on this. And then there's this 110 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: Peter Saloni guy. He was a night watchman at the 111 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: food wholesaler near the empty lot where the body was found, 112 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: and he told police that he witnessed a white car 113 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: with a loane mail driver leaving the warehouse area at 114 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: four am. He said the car may have been a 115 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties era a Cadillac. 116 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 3: There wasn't really any evidence that anybody's white car was 117 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 3: necessarily the car used in this crime. The security guard 118 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 3: thought he saw a white car with a loan driver 119 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 3: leaving the warehouse area around four am. No one knows 120 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 3: what time miss Fernandez was brought there or when she 121 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 3: was killed. There were different reports about when she left 122 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 3: the bar, and originally the investigation focused on a black car, 123 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 3: which had a much closer connection to the crime. Because 124 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 3: several witnesses describes seeing an unfamiliar shiny black Monte Carlo 125 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 3: with windows outside the bar, and people started suggesting to 126 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 3: police that maybe the perpetrator drove her to and from 127 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 3: the bar in that car. And it was only when 128 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 3: six eight months later the case remained unsolved that suddenly 129 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: a new detective on the case, Jack Baizel, said, oh, well, 130 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 3: maybe it was the white car seen by the security guard, 131 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 3: And from that little read of a hypothesis, they reverse 132 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 3: engineered a case designed to find anyone they could with 133 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 3: a connection to Whycoff Hospital who happened to have a 134 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 3: white car of that general description. 135 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: So the detectives began looking at the staff of the hospital, 136 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: that this poor woman had been visiting her sick child 137 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: at a pediatric ward because people were staying around the neighborhood, 138 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: that it was like a pickup spot, which is bizarre 139 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: in itself, but okay. So the detective started talking about 140 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: the staff and there was a security guard named Javier 141 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: Ramos who had a white Oldsmobile at the time of 142 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: the murder. Not a cadillact, but he had gotten off 143 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: work at the hospital at midnight on the night of 144 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: the murder, and a few months later in February or 145 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: March of nineteen eighty eight, Ramos had sold the Oldsmobile 146 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: to another staffer, a guy named Pedro Sierra, and he 147 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: had painted the roof of the Oldsmobile red, and Soloney, 148 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: the night watchman guy, was taken to the area where 149 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: the car formerly owned by Ramos was parked. 150 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 3: They drove him around the block, passed it several times, 151 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 3: and he didn't pick it out, and then by self 152 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 3: finally says to him or detective said to him, Hey, 153 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 3: if that car didn't have a red roof, could it 154 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 3: have been the car? And he said probably maybe, like 155 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 3: an eight out of ten. So that's not exactly an unbiased, 156 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 3: spontaneous identification of the car. It's about a suggestive and 157 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 3: equivocal as you get. 158 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: And then Detective by Zell aggressively interrogated and intimidated, i 159 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: would say Ramos for hours and hours, and finally the 160 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: interrogation ended when Ramos told the story that they wanted 161 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 1: to hear, and he signed a statement not implicating Felipe, 162 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 1: but a friend and coworker named Richard. 163 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 3: Pereira Ramas's original story implicating Peera said Terrera bar in 164 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 3: the car brought it back on Thanksgiving morning, there was 165 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 3: a reddish stain in the car. It smelled terrible, and 166 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 3: that Pererra allegedly said to him that he had to 167 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 3: stab some bitch to show her that he was a 168 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 3: man and not some boy. So essentially admitted to a murder, 169 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: and it was a very damning statement. The problem is 170 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 3: it was completing it up. The police bring in Richie. 171 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: We don't know the full extent of the investigation they did, 172 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:32,599 Speaker 3: but we know that he was not picked out of 173 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 3: a lineup by any of the eyewitnesses from the bar 174 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 3: or by the security guard, and for that or for 175 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 3: other reasons, they decided Ramus had given them the wrong guy. 176 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 3: So they go back to Ramos and they work him over, 177 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 3: and they work him over, but before they do that, 178 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 3: they go to Perrera and they say, hey, Ramos implicated you. 179 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 3: We think Ramos might be the killer. Can you wear 180 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 3: a wire and go talk to him. 181 00:09:58,360 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: Now. 182 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 3: None of this was heard by Felipe jury. This didn't 183 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 3: come out till after he was convicted. But Ramos was 184 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 3: taped by Pererra, the man he falsely implicated, essentially admitting 185 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 3: he made up the whole story, and on this audio tape, 186 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 3: that none of the jurors ever heard. Ramo said, look, 187 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 3: the cops were coming at me and coming at me. 188 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 3: It was going to be me or you, and I 189 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 3: had to give them somebody or else I was going 190 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 3: to go to prison for the rest of my life. 191 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 3: And then he said, my car wasn't even working that day, 192 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 3: the battery was dead, and there was no blood on 193 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 3: the cushion. That was juice that my girlfriend's kid spilled there. 194 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 3: He admitted the whole thing was fabricated, not just naming Pereira, 195 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 3: but the whole entire story, and Felipe's jury never heard that. 196 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 3: What they did here at Felipe's trial was that Ramos 197 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 3: gave another version of that statement implicating Felipe. The only 198 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 3: two differences in that statement were one, and most importantly, 199 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 3: he switched the names. So he gave the exact same statement. 200 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 3: But he said, oh, it was actually Felipe Rodriguez who 201 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 3: brought the car back to me that morning and said 202 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 3: all these terrible things, not Richie Perreira. Okay, So to 203 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 3: believe he's telling the truth, you have to believe he 204 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 3: implicated one innocent man to protect another man, Felipe Rodriguez, 205 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 3: not exactly the most reliable witness in the world. In addition, 206 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 3: another thing that always jumped out at us is that 207 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 3: Ramo said in his second statement that he cleaned the 208 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 3: car himself. In his first statement, the false one implicating 209 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 3: Richie Perreira, he said that his grandfather helped him clean 210 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 3: the car, and suddenly, in the second statement, the grandfather disappears. 211 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 3: Grandfather never testifies a trial, and to this day we 212 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 3: have never seen a single piece of paper indicating whether 213 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 3: the police ever talked to the grandfather and Jason, I 214 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: probably don't need to connect the dots for your very 215 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: crime savvy listeners, or even the ones who aren't right, Like, 216 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 3: the first thing you would do as a rookie cop 217 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 3: if somebody says, oh, I cleaned blood off of a 218 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 3: vehicle that was used in a grisly murder and this 219 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 3: person helped me, is you'd go find that person and 220 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 3: interview them and see if they corroborate or contradict what 221 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 3: this witness has just told you. And the fact that 222 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 3: there is no record of them talking to the grandfather, 223 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 3: along with the fact that we now now Remos made 224 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 3: it all up, leads me to the conclusion that the 225 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 3: police absolutely talked to him, and that he told them 226 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 3: my grandson's full of you know what, I never went 227 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 3: near a stinky, bloody carr or else I would have 228 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 3: called the cops. So they took that detail out of 229 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 3: the second statement, but everything else he subbed one name 230 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 3: for another, and in the second statement he subbed in 231 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 3: an innocent man who did twenty seven years in prison 232 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 3: for a crime commit Felipe. 233 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 2: Had you even heard about it when they came to me, 234 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 2: that was the first I heard it, and I was 235 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 2: shocked us out. 236 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: So they put Felipe in a live lineup, and they 237 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: brought in several of the people from the bar, and 238 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: none of them identified Filipe except for the one guy 239 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: who had admitted that he was drunk as a skunk 240 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: that night, and you would have to be drunk as 241 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: a skunk to except a guy who's described as Italian 242 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: five eight with reddish brown hair and chunky with a 243 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: guy who's slender five eleven, jet black hair and a mustache. Well, 244 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: with Ramos's statement and Thompson's identification, that they felt was 245 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: enough to indict Felipe for murder. 246 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: You know, I was truly truly baffled of why me. 247 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: Felipe also passed a polygraph denying his involvement and was 248 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: released on bail pre trial, which again gives me some 249 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: indication that they didn't think he was that dangerous or 250 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: they wouldn't have sent it back to the neighborhood. And 251 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: then there was the issue with the trial itself. 252 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: Right. 253 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: So, originally Felipe was represented by Kenneth Litwack, but then 254 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: replaced by an attorney named Jennifer Miolo. 255 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 3: As we later found out, she was defending Felibe with 256 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 3: one hand time behind her back because there was a 257 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 3: lot of evidence of his innocence that she never got. 258 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 3: Some of the best lawyers in the world will lose 259 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 3: trials when the prosecution doesn't play fair and the police 260 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 3: don't play fair, and they don't get all the evidence 261 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 3: that they're entitled to get. 262 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: And that was exactly the situation that was happening here 263 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: in April nineteen ninety. Your trial was held in the 264 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,719 Speaker 1: Queen's County Supreme Court, and I know that Ramos repeated 265 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: his false narrative about lending his car to Felipe man 266 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: He said that he had delayed reporting the crime and 267 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: initially shifted the blame to Peric because Felipe was quote 268 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: like a brother to me. I mean, the whole thing stinks. 269 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 3: As you know, many jurors, when they show up for 270 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 3: jury duty, assume that the police have it right, that 271 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 3: the person who's charged with the crime wouldn't be sitting 272 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 3: there if they weren't guilty, and despite the legal burden 273 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 3: of innocent until proven guilty, in reality it's often just 274 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 3: the opposite, where jurors assume the person is guilty, and 275 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 3: if there's any evidence to support that conclusion, they often 276 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 3: latch onto that evidence. And so I can see a 277 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 3: world where a man who represents himself to be a 278 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 3: close friend of Felipe's, claims to be like a other 279 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 3: to him, comes in and says I didn't want to 280 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 3: turn him in, but I had to because it was 281 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 3: the right thing to do. Never mind that he implicated 282 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 3: another admittedly innocent person in between might give them what 283 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 3: they need, or they might have been swayed by just 284 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 3: the horrible glory nature of the crime and not want 285 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 3: to let it go unsolved. 286 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: So the prosecution calls these two witnesses that claim to 287 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: have seen the writing on Felipe's hands in the past 288 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: This also seems just so dicey. 289 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 3: You know, it's a sign of how thin the case 290 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 3: was that they're relying on things like a witness twenty 291 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 3: months later who says she thought she saw something written 292 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 3: on Felipe's hands. That happens to match something that another 293 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 3: drunk witness said ten months after the crime that he 294 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 3: thought he saw written on Felipe's hand. And that's really 295 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 3: emblematic of just how weak a case this was. But 296 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 3: and the other key piece of it was that the 297 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 3: police witnesses testified really to back up the whole theory 298 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 3: about the white car. You know, the prosecution was allowed 299 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 3: to walk detectives by cell and Sullivan through the investigation. 300 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 3: Oh and also they had the bartender who would initially 301 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 3: not picked flee bad of a lineup, came into court 302 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 3: and said, oh, yeah, that's the guy. And between the 303 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 3: white car ramas, the testimony, some of the other incredibly 304 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 3: shaky IDs and some dubious testimony about writing and things 305 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 3: Felipe allegedly said, and that was enough to send this 306 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 3: man away for what could have been the rest. 307 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: Of his life. 308 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: Felipe was convicted of second degree murder and sentenced to 309 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: twenty five years to life in prison. 310 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 2: When they said that they had found me guilty of 311 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: murdering the second degree, my niece buckled. Man, I put 312 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 2: both of my hands on the table and I just 313 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 2: it was a rough day. Man. It was at that 314 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: time I was married to Loida Castinero, and all I 315 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 2: heard was her screams. It was like a scream when 316 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: somebody dies. And then the judge said, you're remanded, and 317 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: he told the user to take meant cross city, and 318 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 2: that's what the whole thing. Maybe can. 319 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Stand Together. Stand 320 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: Together is a philanthropic community dedicated to helping people improve 321 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: their lives. For more than twenty years, Stand Together and 322 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: its partners have been on the front lines of criminal 323 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: justice reform. By empowering people to take action, supporting nonprofits, 324 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: and working with businesses, Stand Together tackles the root causes 325 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: of problems in our communities and empowers those closest to 326 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: the problems to drive solutions. Solutions like reducing unjust prison 327 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: sentences through the First Step Act, empowering community based programs 328 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: and help people re enter society, and now working to 329 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: bridge divides in our communities to learn how you may 330 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: get involved. Visit Standtogether dot org slash conviction. 331 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 2: I was twenty three twenty four. One of the first 332 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 2: Mexican security persons that I arrived at was Great Metals 333 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 2: Correctional Facility better known as Gladiator School or Comstock. There 334 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 2: I seen the violence, the homosexuality, the drugs, the gangs, 335 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 2: and I said, how can I pulled myself out of 336 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: this dungeon safely and returned to my son. So the 337 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: first few months were crucial. I prayed a lot, I 338 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 2: cried a lot. That was nice when you know, I 339 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 2: put myself to sleep crying thinking about my son and 340 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 2: you know who was being dead for him. I was angry, 341 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 2: of course, I was angry. I was angry at the system. 342 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 2: I was angry that I was thrown in prison for 343 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 2: twenty five to life for something I haven't done. And 344 00:18:55,200 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 2: I was completely confused on how I was going to 345 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 2: solve this mystery. But quickly I understood that in order 346 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 2: for me to think clearly, in order for me to 347 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 2: see things for what they were, I needed to forgive everybody. 348 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: I needed to take all hatred, I needed to take 349 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 2: all resentment, and I needed to get that out of 350 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 2: my system. So that I won't get more hurt than 351 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 2: what I was already, because you know, most people don't 352 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 2: understand hatred, resentment. All that does. It hurts you, It 353 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 2: doesn't hurt the person you're angry at, because the person 354 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 2: you're angry at is actually in their hour, sleeping or 355 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 2: having fun with their family while you are doing in 356 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 2: all this madness. So very early in my incarceration, I 357 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: got rid of all that, and I devoted myself to 358 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 2: giving thanks to God for me being healthy and alive 359 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 2: and asking him to protect my son. And I started 360 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 2: learning and reading every book i'd get my hands on, 361 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: and it was a hell of a quest. For sure. 362 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 1: I can't picture you in this gladiator school, but you 363 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 1: turned it into positivity. But then there was still so 364 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: much more to come, right, and we're going to go 365 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,959 Speaker 1: quickly through the proceedings. In the early nineties. 366 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 3: Felipe got appointed some terrific lawyers from the Legal Aids 367 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 3: Society for his initial round of appeals right after his conviction. 368 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: Right, and this is Martin Lucente, of course, of the 369 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: Legal Aid Society. We're talking about a very very talented lawyer, and. 370 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 3: They very quickly through some catching a reference to it 371 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 3: in another report, discovered that this tape of the lead 372 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 3: witness against Felipe Javier Ramos existed, was in the state's 373 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 3: possession and had never been turned over. So they got 374 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 3: to copy the tape in which Ramos admits to making 375 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 3: up the whole story about the car and the bloodstains 376 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 3: and his car and having it to the battery. And 377 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 3: they go to a hearing. And as we've seen so 378 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 3: many times, when you go to a hearing with a 379 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 3: claim that the prosecution withheld evidence you're supposed to have, 380 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 3: it's a very hard claim to win because the prosecutor 381 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 3: will often come in and say, well, I turned it over, 382 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 3: I handed it to the defense layer, I gave it 383 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 3: to her. And that's exactly what he said here. And 384 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, the judge's decision denying 385 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 3: Felipe a new trial didn't say this wasn't significant evidence. 386 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 3: He never says, oh, this wouldn't have made a difference anyway, 387 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 3: it was so obvious how important it is. He says, 388 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 3: I find that there's not enough proof or evidence that 389 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 3: it wasn't disclosed. I'm not going to call the prosecutor 390 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 3: a liar. So essentially he's saying that maybe Felipe's trial 391 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 3: or or missed it, but you know, she was cross 392 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 3: examining Ramo's pretty hard. It's something that would have been 393 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 3: almost impossible to miss if she'd had this kind of 394 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 3: ammo to cross examine him further about making it up. 395 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 3: So he lost that round, but it was still more 396 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 3: evidence that, by the time the Innocence Project took the 397 00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 3: case was on record, further undermining this already incredible conviction. 398 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: So none of these initial emotions or appeals led to 399 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: the result that they should have, which is of course 400 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: for Philip to come home. And then it comes to 401 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: two thousand and one, when Felipe you wrote to the Innocence. 402 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: Project, they sent me a letter. They said, look, we 403 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 2: have a lot of requests and right now, you know, 404 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: we only have a certain amount of staff, so we 405 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 2: will take a look at it. We'll let you know. 406 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: But then I was transferred to Sullivan, and in Sullivan 407 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 2: I met Father Bona, who became my mentor. I really 408 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: got immerged into the Catholic religion and I started serving. 409 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 2: They made population. It became a chaplain's aid and the 410 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 2: chaplain kirk eucharistic minister. I was in charge of the 411 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 2: entire Mass, and I was also in charge of the 412 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 2: prayer Nis, the Bible studies. You know, we started the 413 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 2: formation class that allow people to become secular Franciscans, which 414 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: I am today, and I forgot about the Innis's project. 415 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 2: I just you know, I left it off to God. 416 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: And then I started working with a serial killer. His 417 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 2: name is Alter John Showcross. He was a Stanic worshiper 418 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 2: and everybody hated him in the prison. Actually, one day 419 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 2: I came from formation class on a Sunday after Mass, 420 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: and I was sitting at my table with too of 421 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 2: the chairs empty, and mister Showcross, man he rest in peace, 422 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: was sitting on the floor because nobody wanted them on 423 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 2: their tables. And I felt so hyper critical. I felt like, 424 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 2: here I am teaching Bible study and holding mass, and 425 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 2: I have a guy that's sitting on the stairs eating 426 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: its food because people think that they are better than him. 427 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 2: I said, who am I to touch this guy or 428 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 2: what saying do I have? And saying that this guy 429 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 2: is redeed mobile or not redeemable, that's not off to me. 430 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 2: That's not up to any human being deserved, that's up 431 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: to God. Whatever we want to call God. So I 432 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 2: got up from my table and I went up to 433 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: Shortcross and I said, come on, man, sit on the table. 434 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: So he came up. He sat on the table. I said, 435 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 2: as long as I'm in this prison, you sit on 436 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 2: this table with me, and whoever has a problem with it, 437 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 2: I'll take care of it. He said, why why are 438 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 2: you doing that? I said, everybody deserves a little bit 439 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 2: of humanity. I'm not here to deprive you of that. 440 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 2: I've been deprived of that myself, so I'm not going 441 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 2: to deprive you of that. And from that day he 442 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 2: started asking me questions about religion and what I believe 443 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 2: and why I didn't believe. And one day he came 444 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: out and he said, what would you do if I 445 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 2: wanted to go to church? You think they allow me 446 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 2: in church? I said, well, I'll tell you what. Why 447 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 2: don't you come Sunday to Mass with me? If you 448 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 2: don't like it, you don't never have to come again, 449 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 2: and nobody's going to judge you or whatever. And he said, 450 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 2: are you sure people? I said, listen, I'm sure God 451 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 2: would love to have you in his house. And he 452 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 2: said okay. That day was the greatest day for me. 453 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 2: I got blessed by God for me. It was the 454 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 2: best letter I've ever received. Nina Morrison was assigned to 455 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 2: my case. From there, Nina became my guardian angel. I 456 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 2: don't think there's ever going to be a woman more 457 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 2: important to me aside from my mother than Nina Morrison. 458 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 2: And I'm married and I love Karen. But I'm gonna 459 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 2: tell you, and I told Karen a hundred times, and 460 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: you can ask him. She could tell you. If Nina 461 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 2: called me from China today and told me that she 462 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 2: needed me over there, Karen will stay here and I 463 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: go to China, because that's just the way it's going 464 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 2: to be. This is where the Innocent Project stands with me. 465 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: Nina takes a case and the physical evidence had been destroyed. 466 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: There was almost nothing left to go on. 467 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 3: Felipe's case for a few years in our office was 468 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 3: literally hanging by some hairs because the hairs were among 469 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 3: the few things we hadn't found yet. We actually managed 470 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 3: with the help of a pretty diligent newer prosecutor in 471 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 3: the years office, Eric Rosenbaum, tracked down some of the hairs, 472 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 3: and then Hurricane Sandy hit and they lost them again, 473 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 3: and we had to wait another eighteen months, and after 474 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 3: that testing and some testings we found on some biological 475 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 3: material left over from the car yielded no DNA that 476 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,479 Speaker 3: was of any use to the investigation. The hairs were 477 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 3: all from the victim herself. The cuttings from the car 478 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 3: didn't yield a thing blood, no, nothing. We were kind 479 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 3: of stuck. 480 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: You know, it would have been at that point not 481 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: an illogical thing for someone in Nina's position to say, well, 482 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, like we would love to help you, but 483 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: we just don't have what we need. But that's not 484 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: how this rolled out. 485 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 3: I used to joke in the office that we could 486 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 3: have a TV show, you know, like the old show 487 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 3: Everybody Loves Raymond, called Everybody Loves Felipe, because if I 488 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 3: so much just suggested that we might close his case, 489 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 3: I was going to have five law students in my 490 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 3: office telling me I was insane or worse. So we 491 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 3: just kind of kept it open. So I brought in 492 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 3: my old law school classmate, Zach margalla'sanama to do some 493 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 3: work with me on the case and lighten the load 494 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 3: so I could justify keeping Fuliba's file open. And then 495 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 3: in the Hall of twenty sixteen, we started to think 496 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 3: we might be able to get fully Bay out of 497 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 3: prison another way, not a prison. 498 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: Break, although I think that had this failed, that probably 499 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: would have been Nina and a helicopter ladder. 500 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 3: On that one. I have no prouts to commit any 501 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 3: prison breaks. 502 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: I'm glad it didn't come to that. So the next 503 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: and only probably remaining option was coubernatorial clemency. 504 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 3: So we actually got a call in our office at 505 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 3: the Innocent Project from one of the lawyers in Governor 506 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 3: Cuomo's office in New York saying that they were actively 507 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 3: soliciting clemency applications from people who had I think what 508 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 3: they called exemplary prison rep so people who had done 509 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 3: very well inside and had proven that they would be 510 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 3: no threat to anyone on the outside. And of course 511 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 3: it helps if you have a lot of evidence that 512 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 3: they are innocent. And you know, many of our innocent clients, 513 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 3: they're in the middle of a healthscape, nightmare, get into 514 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 3: some fights, get into drugs, get into all kinds of 515 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 3: things just to survive. And you know who among us 516 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 3: can judge who has never spent a night in one 517 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 3: of those places, but Felipe and a few of our 518 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 3: other clients had managed to have really truly extraordinary records 519 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 3: inside of community service, peacefulness, the respect and trust of 520 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 3: the staff and the CEOs, and so it was pretty 521 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 3: obvious that Felipe would be one of the people who 522 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 3: we would want to put forward. But when I went 523 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 3: to go talk to Felipe about it, he said, well, 524 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 3: it's not an exoneration. 525 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: And Felipe, before you get into that, as the man 526 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: of principle that you are, you had refused to go 527 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: in front of the parole board because of the fact 528 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: that they were expecting or even insisting that you were 529 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: going to admit guilt and remorse for crime you didn't commit. 530 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: So you had made a conscious decision that you would 531 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: rather stay in prison than tell a lie and admit 532 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: to something you didn't do. 533 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 2: When they told me that I was for parole, I 534 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 2: told the depth of security at the time, Peter Early. 535 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 2: He came to see me. He says, listen, you are 536 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 2: for parole. You know I'm going to I want to 537 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 2: give you a letter of commendation so that you could 538 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,479 Speaker 2: get parole. I said, I don't want a letter. With 539 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 2: all due respect, I appreciate your intentions, but I'm not 540 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: appearing before parole. I don't want to go out that way. 541 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 2: I'm not negotiating my innocence. I said, I am willing 542 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: to die in prison if they're not going to recognize 543 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 2: that I'm a this man. And then came Nina shortly 544 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: thereafter with this great idea of a partner or commutation 545 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 2: from the governor. I said, no, I said, I'm not 546 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 2: interested in that. That's not an exageration. She said, hold on, 547 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: I got some nice tickets to the Yankees, great box seats. 548 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 2: Wouln't you want to go to a game with Filipito? 549 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 2: And you know, man, she sold that ship to me 550 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 2: immediately though, Dude, she said, well, we still fight for 551 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: your exaggeration, and we're gonna we're gonna cut your name, 552 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: but at least we'll get you out of here. So 553 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 2: I said, all right, I try it. So it was 554 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: almost by Christmas. The death of Security came. Death early. 555 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 2: He would come like little buddies. And I was on 556 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 2: a ladder painting, and the Death of Security came and 557 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 2: he said, hey, Rod, get down from the ladder. So 558 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 2: the way he said it, I thought I was in trouble. 559 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: I said, thing, What did I do? So I get down. 560 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 2: I said, what's up that? He said, get in my truck. 561 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 2: I said, what happened? What did I do? He said, 562 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 2: you didn't do nothing. Get in the truck. So I 563 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 2: got in the truck. You can't get into depth truck, dude, 564 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 2: no inmate gets in the depth truck. So I knew 565 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 2: something was amiss when a death of security tell you 566 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: to get on his truck and then take you outside 567 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 2: of the jail to his office. So once I seen 568 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 2: that I was going outside the gate, I said, you're dead. 569 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: He said, relax, everything is good. So we went to 570 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 2: his office and there it is the superintendent, the type 571 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 2: of administration, type of programs, step early and a lieutenant. 572 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 2: So he says, sit on my chair man that Shay 573 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 2: and I can tell the breaks. I said, what's up there? 574 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: He said, sit on my chair, go ahead. So I 575 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 2: sat on the depth chair and the Superintendent said, in 576 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 2: all the years that I've been in corrections, I never 577 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 2: had the privilege to do this. The governor of the 578 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 2: State of New York cos to grant you a commutation. 579 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 2: De said, my phone is your phone. You could do 580 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: whatever you want with my phone. Go ahead and die 581 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 2: whatever you want to die. This is your phone, is 582 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 2: your office for today. The first phone call I made 583 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 2: my son. I called my son and I don't flip it, 584 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 2: I said, I said, it's overdue, I said, coming home. 585 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 2: I called Nina and I already knew. She's a bomb. 586 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 2: She didn't let me know, but she already knew. And 587 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 2: Zach knew too, And he's another bomb. He didn't tell 588 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: me either, So it was like a big bomb dropped 589 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: on me. You know. I didn't think a commutation will 590 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,719 Speaker 2: feel the way that felt. But to get out and 591 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 2: be able to hold my son and see the city 592 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 2: after almost three decades, see it and walk free and 593 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 2: smell the air and get in the car and do 594 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: the things that we so much take for granted was amazing. 595 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 2: To be started back to some extent of humanity, to 596 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,959 Speaker 2: feel that sense of belonging, the sense that freedom that 597 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 2: only comes from you doing what you want when you 598 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 2: want to do it. Most people don't know what it 599 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 2: feels like because they never lost their freedom. Freedom is 600 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 2: a gift. It is the greatest gift any human being 601 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 2: ever has. I am in eternal debt to the entire 602 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 2: stop of the Innit's project. Governor Pomo also deserves some 603 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 2: gratitude for me, and the next step was even better. 604 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 2: But this was a crucial moment in my life after 605 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 2: spending twenty six years and nine months in prison. 606 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: So the best was yet to come. And I'll never 607 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: forget your sort of homecoming lunch in New York City. 608 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: I was sort of very blessed to be there for 609 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: your first free hug with your son. I had some 610 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: amazing photographs. I think I was a designated photographer for 611 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: that moment, and it was just the type of moment 612 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: that I think we live for all of us who 613 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: work in this field. And of course then there's still 614 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: more good news and a cold day in Queens, New York, 615 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: we witnessed the formal exoneration. 616 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 3: Three years to the day after he got his clemency. 617 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 3: December thirtieth is Felipe's lucky day. So watch out powerball people, 618 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 3: because if he plays the lottery on that day, things. 619 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: Make his way exactly that. 620 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 2: I didn't plan it that way. 621 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 3: It just happened, and it was pretty much the last 622 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 3: official act from the outgoing administration of Richard Brown. Mister 623 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 3: Brown died in office about six months before Fullibe was exonerated, 624 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,479 Speaker 3: but one of his top eights, Bob Masters agreed. After 625 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 3: Phillipe was granted clemency, Bob Masters, who was one of 626 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 3: the most senior officials in a very large DA's office, 627 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 3: agreed to my pleading to have somebody with authority take 628 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 3: a closer look at the case. And I spent about 629 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,720 Speaker 3: close to the better part of those three years working 630 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 3: with him to dig up every last bit of paper 631 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,879 Speaker 3: that they could find and help them understand the significance 632 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 3: of what they saw by explaining and really opening up 633 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 3: our files for the whole case to them. And on 634 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 3: December twenty third of twenty nineteen I finally got a 635 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 3: call from Bob Masters that he agreed that there was 636 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 3: a lot of evidence in that DA's file and then 637 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 3: the police file that none of us had ever seen, 638 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 3: that Fellybe's trial lawyer certainly never had, and that the 639 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 3: jury never had. That convinced him that fully Bay's right 640 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 3: two affair trial had been egregiously violated. 641 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 1: Okay, So they found a statement from Ramos taken by 642 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,439 Speaker 1: a Long Island Railroad detective, with Ramos claiming that Felipe 643 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: was with a black man when he allegedly returned the car. 644 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: So that's a totally different story there, and then in 645 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: front of Robert Masters, Ramos recanted his identification of Felipe, 646 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: blaming pressure from police at the time. I mean, there 647 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 1: was also a statement from a bar patron named William 648 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,800 Speaker 1: Perry that a firmly stated that the couple had arrived 649 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: in the black Monte Carlo, which undermined the entire theory 650 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: about the white car seen by Soloni. And if that 651 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: wasn't enough, one of. 652 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 4: The biggest red flags of all was that Detective Byzell 653 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 4: had gained permission to arrest Felipe. Get this eight days 654 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 4: before Ramos had changed his story from Pereira to Felipe. 655 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 4: I mean, it's unfucking believable, and it left the DA's 656 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 4: office no choice. 657 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 3: Finally, Bob Masters agreed, and he had convinced the district 658 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 3: attorney that throwing out fully based conviction and exonerating him 659 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 3: was the right thing to do. And I was able 660 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 3: to give Felipe a pretty good Christmas present. I called 661 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 3: him on Christmas Eve and said, can you come to 662 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 3: the office. And I couldn't tell him why I wanted 663 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 3: him to come in, because he'd want to know what 664 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 3: was going on, and So what did I tell you? 665 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 3: I think I said, I need you to look at 666 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 3: some papers. 667 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 2: You need to sign, sign some papers. 668 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 3: Come to look at some papers. 669 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: Every typical lawyer excuse. 670 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 3: And he was working at a hotel town and on 671 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 3: the way home he stopped. 672 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 2: Off, and when I got there, she's all smiley and 673 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 2: you know, being Nina, you know how you doing? What's up? 674 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 2: And I said, what's the documents? Because I see the documents? 675 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 2: She said, relax. You know Santa Claus brought you a gift. 676 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,240 Speaker 2: And I said what gift? She said, well, you finally 677 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 2: got what you wanted. And I looked at Nina sideway like, nah, 678 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 2: don't drop this again, and she said, well, on the tempathy, 679 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 2: you will be exonerated. I made my whole world tend 680 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:31,919 Speaker 2: upside down. Dude. 681 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 3: In eighteen years of the Innocence Project, this was the 682 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 3: first client that I'd ever gotten to tell in person 683 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 3: that he was getting exonerated. I've done a lot of 684 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 3: joyful phone calls, but the first time, because he was 685 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 3: a New Yorker and he was already free in body, 686 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 3: if not a name, that I got to actually tell 687 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 3: someone in my office and be there with him when 688 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 3: he got to call all his family members and tell 689 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 3: them the good news. So that was pretty special. 690 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: So now we get to the part of the show 691 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: that everyone, especially he looks forward to, and that part 692 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: of the show is called closing arguments, and this is where, 693 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: first of all, I thank each of you. Nina Morrison, 694 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,280 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on the show again. 695 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 3: Thanks Jason, great to be back. 696 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: And Felipe Rodriguez, thanks again for being here and sharing 697 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 1: your story with us. 698 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:20,399 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. 699 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 1: And now I'm going to turn my mic off, kick 700 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: back in my chair, close my eyes, and leave the 701 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: mic on. Nina, why don't you go first, and then 702 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 1: when you're done, just hand the mic off to Felipe, 703 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: and then Felipe you do the mic drop. 704 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 3: It's hard to know what to say to sum up 705 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 3: or make meaning out of what Felipe went through. We 706 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 3: do know a few things. Why is that he never 707 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 3: should have been arrested or charged in the first place, 708 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,320 Speaker 3: That there was so much evidence even at the time 709 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,320 Speaker 3: that made very clear that they had the wrong imp 710 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 3: Another is that if Pollice and prosecutors had turned over 711 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,959 Speaker 3: still more evidence that no one on the defense team 712 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 3: and Felipe himself didn't know was there, he never would 713 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,919 Speaker 3: have been convicted. Fortunately, New York has since changed its 714 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 3: laws on what's called pre trial discovery, meaning the universe 715 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 3: of documents that you get not but as a prosecutor says, well, 716 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 3: I think this is helpful to you, so I'm going 717 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 3: to provide it, and I'm legally obligated to provide it. 718 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 4: But all of the. 719 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 3: Documents collected in connection with an investigation, police reports, and 720 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,439 Speaker 3: notes now need to be turned over as a matter 721 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 3: of right. So had these laws been in place at 722 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 3: the time fully Bay was charged, I like to think 723 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 3: that he never would have been convicted. So we are 724 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 3: grateful to the legislature and so the Governor for enacting 725 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 3: its discovery reform, as we call it, into law, and 726 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 3: for keeping the bill strong because it will prevent more 727 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 3: fully fair Ladigue Systrom going to prison for crimes I 728 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 3: didn't commit. 729 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 2: So I came out of prison on January twenty six, 730 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. A week and a half later, Nina Morrizon 731 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 2: got me to go and walk into the president of 732 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 2: Locals six Trades Council Union, mister Peter Ward. He was 733 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 2: really taken aback by what I've been through and he said, look, 734 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 2: if nobody wants to hire you, I'll make the call myself. 735 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 2: And I became a hotel worker and I just got 736 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 2: laid off because of the COVID, but I was making 737 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 2: good money healthcare. I got a great family. And Nina 738 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 2: is the one responsible for me marrying Karen Rodriguez. Nina 739 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 2: has done so much for me. Nina is so intertwined 740 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,879 Speaker 2: in my home, in my life, in my future, in 741 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 2: my past. It's amazing. I'm in the great position even 742 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 2: though with this COVID. You know, I hear people saying that, oh, 743 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 2: we feel like we're in jail. They don't even know 744 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 2: what jail is like. This is no way compared to jail. 745 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 2: Trust me, I'm going to tell you something. People should 746 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,240 Speaker 2: be thanking COVID. COVID has given the people a chance 747 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 2: to know their children, to know their wives, to know 748 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 2: their mothers, to talk to share moments with them. So 749 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 2: what I say to people is I took prison and 750 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,240 Speaker 2: I made something good out of it. Let's take COVID 751 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 2: and make something good out of it. I mean, sometimes 752 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 2: it's stressful, you know, overwhelming with the kids, you know, 753 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 2: because you're not used to it. But let's see the positive. 754 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 2: I mean, prison is a dark place. I welcomed it. 755 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 2: I used the tool that was placed on my feet 756 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 2: and I did something positive. And we could do that 757 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 2: during COVID. We we just got to take it one 758 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 2: day at a time, you know, and the rest should 759 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 2: be history. 760 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: Man, don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever 761 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a 762 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,879 Speaker 1: proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope 763 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and 764 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project 765 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. 766 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and 767 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three 768 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow 769 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at 770 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a 771 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,240 Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal 772 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 1: Company Number one