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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the white tail Woods, presented by first Light, creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First

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Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the.

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Speaker 2: Wired to Hunt Podcast.

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Speaker 3: Today we are going to be discussing how we came

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Speaker 3: to have fifty eight point five million acres of protected

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Speaker 3: roadless areas here in the United States of America, and

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Speaker 3: how those same roadless areas, those best places to hunt

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Speaker 3: and fish and get away from the crowds, might very

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Speaker 3: well be threatened in a new and profound way. And

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Speaker 3: joining us for this discussion is Chris Wood, a hunter,

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Speaker 3: an angler, and the president and CEO of Trout Unlimited.

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Speaker 3: All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast,

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Speaker 3: brought to you First Light and their Camo for Conservation Initiative.

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Speaker 3: And today we are talking roadless areas, those spots on

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Speaker 3: the map that are left just a little bit more

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Speaker 3: blank than the rest, Those places where you can get

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Speaker 3: away from the crowds, those spots that we're all looking

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Speaker 3: for to try to find that last best honey hole

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Speaker 3: for white tails, or maybe deep in that high mountain

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Speaker 3: basin where you can find those bugling bowls, or maybe

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Speaker 3: where you want to follow those little blue lines to

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Speaker 3: find those high alpine cutthroat streams.

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Speaker 2: These last best places that are.

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Speaker 3: Protected from roads and everything that comes with them. If

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Speaker 3: you remember earlier the spring, we had a really interesting

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Speaker 3: chat with Ben Goldfarb. He's the author of a book

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Speaker 3: called Crossings. It was all about the impact of roads

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Speaker 3: on wildlife and wild places, and to sum that book

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Speaker 3: up very very succinctly, roads have a huge impact. Now.

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Speaker 3: Of course, we need some roads to get access to

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Speaker 3: these places, and we have many, many, many of them.

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Speaker 3: In the case of the topic we'll be discussing today,

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Speaker 3: we're talking about US Forest Service lands, where there are

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Speaker 3: nearly four hundred thousand miles of roads already. But there

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Speaker 3: are these last places that have been protected for those

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Speaker 3: of us who want to get back in there and

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Speaker 3: have a wilder experience. Those same places are now threatened

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Speaker 3: in a really profound way. There's a rule that most

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Speaker 3: folks don't know about. It was called the roadless area rule,

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Speaker 3: and this protected, as I mentioned at the top, more

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Speaker 3: than fifty eight million acres of roadless areas left in

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Speaker 3: our forest system. Those have been, like I said, really

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Speaker 3: really special places for many of us, kind of unbeknownst

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Speaker 3: to us they're protected in this special way. Well, recently

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Speaker 3: the government has proposed removing that rule and opening up

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Speaker 3: this fifty eight million acres of backcountry wild wide open

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Speaker 3: places to new roads and development. So what's that going

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Speaker 3: to mean for hunting, What's that going to mean for fishing?

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Speaker 3: What's that going to mean for the elk and deer

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Speaker 3: and bears and fish and critics of all types that

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Speaker 3: live there. That's the question or those are the questions

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Speaker 3: that we are going to be answering today. And my

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Speaker 3: guest is somebody who has a really deep understanding of

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Speaker 3: this issue and of this protection, this roadless Area rule,

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Speaker 3: because he actually helped write it.

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Speaker 2: Our guest today is Chris Wood.

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Speaker 3: He is currently the president and CEO of Trout Unlimited,

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Speaker 3: but in his former life he did work for the

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Speaker 3: US Forest Service, and he helped the Chief of the

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Speaker 3: Forest Service back at this period late nineties early two

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Speaker 3: thousands to develop this rule, develop these protections, and to

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Speaker 3: really come to this decision that this is the best

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Speaker 3: long term decision to protect these last places for future

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Speaker 3: generations or wildlife, for hunting and angling, and so so

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Speaker 3: many other reasons. So today Chris is going to help

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Speaker 3: us understand the history, how these places came to be,

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Speaker 3: how these places were protected, why the roadless rule is

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Speaker 3: so important, what has done, what it has done for

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Speaker 3: hunting and fishing and wildlife and so many other things.

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Speaker 3: And we're also going to discuss some of the controversy

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Speaker 3: around it. What have been the arguments that people who've

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Speaker 3: been against this protection, what are those arguments been, And

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Speaker 3: then a whole bunch of explanation of why this has

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Speaker 3: been such a smart protection to put in place, Why

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Speaker 3: these places are worth protecting and conserving and keeping around

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Speaker 3: not just for us now, but for our kids and

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Speaker 3: grandkids and all those that come after us. Finally, we

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Speaker 3: are going to discuss what happens if the proposed rollback

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Speaker 3: of this rule actually happens.

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Speaker 2: What happens if these.

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Speaker 3: Fifty eight point five million acres of our last roless

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Speaker 3: areas end up getting re roaded or newly roaded. What

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Speaker 3: ends up if they end up developed in new ways

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Speaker 3: than they have been in the past. What's that future

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Speaker 3: look like. Is there any reason or a way for

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Speaker 3: us to stop that? Do we have any influence at

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Speaker 3: that point. These are the questions and the topics we

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Speaker 3: discussed today with Chris Wood. He is a tremendous spokesperson.

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Speaker 3: He has a lot to share, a lot of experience.

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Speaker 2: Whether you are.

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Speaker 3: A white tail hunter, or an elk hunter, or a

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Speaker 3: black bear hunter, or a trout angler, or somebody who

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Speaker 3: just likes to every once in a while get away

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Speaker 3: from the crowds.

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Speaker 2: This is a conversation that is.

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Speaker 3: Going to be really important for you to hear, to understand,

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Speaker 3: and I hope to take action on. So, without any

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Speaker 3: further beating around the bush, let's get to my chat

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Speaker 3: today with Chris Wood about the history and the future

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Speaker 3: of America's last roadless areas.

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Speaker 2: All right with me now, is Chris Wood? Welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 4: Chris, Thanks Mark, it's great to be here.

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Speaker 3: I'm very excited to have this chat today for multiple reasons.

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Speaker 3: One of the reasons, and this is like the ancillary one.

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Speaker 3: The main reason is because of the time topic. But

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Speaker 3: the secondary reason I'm so excited is that parallel to

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Speaker 3: my love of hunting and whitetails especially, I have an

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Speaker 3: equal love for fly fishing that over the last fifteen

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Speaker 3: years has been growing and growing and growing and maybe

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Speaker 3: almost superseding my hunting obsession. But I rarely get to

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Speaker 3: have someone on the show who is as obsessed as

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Speaker 3: I am, or more obsessed than I am, on those

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Speaker 3: sets of topics. So it's great to share a podcast

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Speaker 3: today with a fellow trout nut in fly fishing a fishionado.

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Speaker 2: So thank you for bringing that to the show today.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, man, of course, Mark, I'm also a big time

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Speaker 4: whitetail hunter, and I like that you said a fly

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Speaker 4: fishing a ficionado, because even though I get I have

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Speaker 4: the privilege of working for Trout Unlimited, I love catching

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Speaker 4: anything that swims on my fly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I understand you do a lot there on

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Speaker 3: the Potomac and some of your local rivers on the

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Speaker 3: East side there.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, yeah. I've been known to ride my bike

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Speaker 4: to work with a broken down fly rod held on

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Speaker 4: my handlebars and I'll hop off and I'll fish some

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Speaker 4: of our little urban creeks at different times of the year.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing.

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Speaker 3: I love you know. This is this idea of like

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Speaker 3: micro adventures. So many people think that you need to

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Speaker 3: travel out west or go to some big, far flung

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Speaker 3: destination to have a wild experience and to connect with.

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Speaker 2: The natural world.

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Speaker 3: But but I think what you're talking about right there

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Speaker 3: is is a really great example of finding that wildness

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Speaker 3: wherever you are, right yeah.

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Speaker 4: Man, you know, we actually did. We have a wonderful magazine.

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Speaker 4: For those of you who aren't members, you should become

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Speaker 4: a member just to get the magazine. But we did

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Speaker 4: this issue called Blue Lines. And you know, Blue Lines

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Speaker 4: for me was a famous book that I had heard

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Speaker 4: about when I was a kid, by an author named

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Speaker 4: William least heat Moon. And what he did was he

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Speaker 4: traveled the small ancillary highways across America, staying off the interstates,

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Speaker 4: and I think it was called Blue Lines actually. But

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Speaker 4: but you know, what we meant in the magazine of

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Speaker 4: Black Blue Lions was getting off the Madison, getting off

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Speaker 4: the gallot and getting up into the headwaters of these systems,

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Speaker 4: getting up into some of these roadless areas that have these,

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Speaker 4: you know, really high populations of genetically pure native trout

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Speaker 4: and salmon. But in an urban environment, we have blue

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Speaker 4: lions too. You know. We've got this wonderful river, the Potomac,

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Speaker 4: which is very underfished in its own right, but we

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Speaker 4: have these tributaries that feed into it. And I can't

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Speaker 4: tell you how many times, in a city of you know,

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Speaker 4: seven hundred thousand people, I have found myself the only

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Speaker 4: person on an urban fishery catching fish handover fist. I

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Speaker 4: love it well.

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Speaker 2: I don't know a lot about the Potomac.

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Speaker 3: I've never fished there, but I just finished reading a

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Speaker 3: book called The Silent Spring Revolution by Douglas Brinkley. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if you're familiar with that one.

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Speaker 4: I know Douglas Brinkley, but I haven't read that book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a terrific book.

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Speaker 3: It's all about the environmental history of the long sixties,

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Speaker 3: so the sixties, the early seventies, and there was a

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Speaker 3: whole lot in there about William Douglas, the Supreme Court justice,

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Speaker 3: who was a tremendous conservationist. I don't think a lot

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Speaker 3: of people today remember that, but he fought so hard

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Speaker 3: to protect that. I guess there's a canal that runs

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Speaker 3: somewhere around there as well, the O and O Canal,

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Speaker 3: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: You can that's it?

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Speaker 3: And there's a hiking trail through there that he, you know,

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Speaker 3: ended up helping secure as a national park now and

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Speaker 3: and all sorts of stuff. So I learned a lot

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Speaker 3: about that region that was really interesting. And and turns

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Speaker 3: out there's some really special places that are left in

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Speaker 3: a somewhat wild, undeveloped place because of you know, advocacy

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Speaker 3: for those close to home places.

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Speaker 4: That's no, that's exactly right. I mean, it's I could

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Speaker 4: go on and on here, and you're you're catching me.

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Speaker 4: As we talked about before the call. My mom just

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Speaker 4: passed away on Monday. But mom and dad met in Washington,

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Speaker 4: d c. And Dad went to school at Georgetown, which

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Speaker 4: is on the banks of the Potomac, and then he

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Speaker 4: went to law school there. And here me talking about

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Speaker 4: going down there. We have a wonderful shad run that

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Speaker 4: happens in the spring of the year and shattered down

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Speaker 4: across the entire northeast, but in the Potomac there on

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Speaker 4: the way back up. And my father would say, you

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Speaker 4: go to the Potomac, And he said, man, when I

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Speaker 4: was in school there in the sixties, to your point,

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Speaker 4: we wouldn't go near there for fear of getting sick.

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Speaker 4: He used to fear that they would get sick on

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Speaker 4: the river. And today that C and O Canal that

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Speaker 4: you're talking about although the Park Service is taking a

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Speaker 4: long time to fix some parts of the canal and

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Speaker 4: so it's been drained, but it's a wonderful carp fishery

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Speaker 4: fly for flyer writters. You can bike along that path

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Speaker 4: that you mentioned that people hike and you look for

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Speaker 4: tailing carp and it's just it's the coolest experience to

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Speaker 4: be in a city, in that city, right in the

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Speaker 4: in the birthplace of the clean water, for gosh sake,

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Speaker 4: and you know, almost in the span of my lifetime

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Speaker 4: to see that river turn around from one that was

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Speaker 4: a scary place that people wouldn't go for fear of

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Speaker 4: getting sick, to one that today when I take my

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Speaker 4: kids out there to fish, when the shad move up

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Speaker 4: the river because the stripers are following them, and the

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Speaker 4: ale wives are in the river, and all the you know,

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Speaker 4: the birds of prey, the osprey, the bald eagles. Last

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Speaker 4: year we saw two bald eagles juveniles chasing away a

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Speaker 4: golden eagle. We've got comorant. I mean, it's just the

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Speaker 4: diversity of life in the river is incredible, and it's

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Speaker 4: because of people like William Douglas and others in the

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Speaker 4: sixties and the seventies who basically said this is a

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Speaker 4: national disgrace. There is absolutely no reason that the nation's

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Speaker 4: river shouldn't be clean and healthy, and it is so

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Speaker 4: much more so today than it was back then thanks

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Speaker 4: to those giants.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's a perfect segue into our topic today

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Speaker 3: because we can look back there in the sixties and

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Speaker 3: seventies and see where many places had gone downhill tremendously

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Speaker 3: and had to be restored. But at the same time,

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Speaker 3: there was also the beginning. I mean, it's been going

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Speaker 3: on for decades and decades before that, but there were

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Speaker 3: significant updates to protections for those last places that were

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Speaker 3: in a healthy state. And that leads us to what

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Speaker 3: we're going to talk about today, which is another such

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Speaker 3: set of protections that have kept some of our last

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Speaker 3: wild roadless healthy watersheds and forests and landscapes in that state. So,

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Speaker 3: without further ado, I guess we should just get right

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Speaker 3: into it, Chris, And what I'd love to start with

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Speaker 3: is a elevator pitch. If you were on the elevator

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Speaker 3: with a hunter or angler who was not familiar with

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Speaker 3: the roadless rule, but they've been hearing it kind of

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Speaker 3: buzzed around the last month or so, as more and

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Speaker 3: more people are talking about it, I'd love to hear

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Speaker 3: your elevator pitch on what the Roadless Rule is, why

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Speaker 3: it's relevant to hunters and anglers, and what they should

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Speaker 3: know about it to start this conversation.

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Speaker 2: So that's that's step one. Yeah, we'll leave it that.

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Speaker 2: I'll I'll let you start with that and then we'll

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Speaker 2: move for.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's great, Thank you for that question. The

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Speaker 4: Roadless Rule protects fifty eight and a half million acres

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Speaker 4: of some of the finest hunting and fishing habitat on

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Speaker 4: the planet. And that's why you should care if you

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Speaker 4: hunt and you fish, especially if you hunt and fish

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Speaker 4: on public lands, even private because a lot of times

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Speaker 4: the game is making you know, it's winter habitat is

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Speaker 4: you know, is up on public lands and then it

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Speaker 4: moves down onto the private lands depending on the species.

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Speaker 4: But if you fish or hunt, especially if you fish

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Speaker 4: or hunt on public lands and waters, you need to

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Speaker 4: make your voice heard to keep these landscapes protected because

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Speaker 4: they are they're the goose that lays the golden egg

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Speaker 4: for all of us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, that's a very good succinct. Setting the stage

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Speaker 2: for us.

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Speaker 3: Now, I want to rewind the tape and I want

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Speaker 3: to get in deep and start with how it all began.

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Speaker 3: And you are the perfect person to help us with us, because,

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Speaker 3: as I understand it, you are quite intricately involved in

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Speaker 3: developing this set of protections, the Rowless Rule. So how

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Speaker 3: did you get involved with the Royless Rule? What did

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Speaker 3: that look like for you personally?

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Speaker 4: Such a good question. Mark, Yeah, when we when I

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Speaker 4: started working on this rule, I had a full head

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Speaker 4: of brown hair. But you can't tell it's not brown anymore,

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Speaker 4: and it ain't full either. So I'll get to the

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Speaker 4: personal point in a minute, but I think the institutional

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Speaker 4: point is almost just as important. So from from nineteen

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Speaker 4: sixty to nineteen eighty nine, the United States Forest Service,

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Speaker 4: which was held up in the sixties, going back to

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Speaker 4: that era of the sixties by some of the famous

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Speaker 4: historians of the ear people like Harold Stein, they used

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Speaker 4: to hold the Forest Service up as this, you know,

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Speaker 4: sort of this iconic agency, this fable to spree decors

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Speaker 4: and people who all had the same sense of mission.

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Speaker 4: And so basically what happened after before World War Two,

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Speaker 4: the agency was very much created by some of our

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Speaker 4: you know our legendary conservation fore bears like Theodore Roosevelt

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Speaker 4: and Gifford Pinchot to basically be an antidote to the

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Speaker 4: rapacious private timber industry which had been liquidating forests. Basically,

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Speaker 4: they started in New England. They marched down to the southeast,

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Speaker 4: they march up to the Great Lakes, and then they

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Speaker 4: moved their way across west the west. And it was

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Speaker 4: before we had forest management practices acts, before there was

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Speaker 4: a Clean Water Act, I mean, and people didn't know

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Speaker 4: they were They were just making a living and they

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Speaker 4: were creating homes for all of us. I mean, so

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Speaker 4: some of us live in those homes to this day

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Speaker 4: that were created from some of that land. I've got

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Speaker 4: a nineteen o six row house in Washington, d c.

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Speaker 4: With hart pine flooring. It's yellow pine without a blemish

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Speaker 4: in it. You wouldn't know it as pine today. But

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Speaker 4: these were big old yellow pines that they cut in

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Speaker 4: the southeast and made into flooring because they're so the

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Speaker 4: hard wood is even though it's a soft wood technically

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Speaker 4: though it's a very hard wood. It's perfect for flooring anyway.

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Speaker 4: But and what happened from the sixth basically after World

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Speaker 4: War Two, when everyone, all the servicemen returned home, the

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Speaker 4: Forest Service turned toward helping to meet the wood fiber

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Speaker 4: needs of the nation. And so as a result, between

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Speaker 4: nineteen sixty and nineteen eighty nine, and this is just

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Speaker 4: as a unit of measurement, it's less important to know

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Speaker 4: what it means, the agency allowed for the production of

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Speaker 4: about nine to twelve billion board feet of timber a year.

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Speaker 4: And just as a frame of reference, it costs it

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Speaker 4: takes about thirty thousand board feet to create a single

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Speaker 4: family home. And it was consistent nine to twelve billion

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Speaker 4: board feet.

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Speaker 1: It was.

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Speaker 4: It varied in different parts of the country, but there

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Speaker 4: was an especial emphasis in the seventies and the eighties

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Speaker 4: in the Pacific Northwest. And that all came crashing down

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Speaker 4: nineteen in the late eighties. And so what had happened

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Speaker 4: as the agency had created a series of rules that

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Speaker 4: said they had to create these minimum they had to

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Speaker 4: protect minimum viable populations of species. And we had passed

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Speaker 4: laws like the Endangered Species Act, which are designed to

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Speaker 4: keep species from winking out, from going extinct. And so

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Speaker 4: there was a little furtive owl, a native owl called

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Speaker 4: the northern spotted owl which habituated these old growth forests

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Speaker 4: in Washington, Oregon, different parts of the Pacific Northwest, and

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Speaker 4: that's where the bread basket of the timber industry was.

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Speaker 4: That's where they were really cutting. In a couple of

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Speaker 4: those separate forests, they were taken out over a billion

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Speaker 4: board feet of timber from one forest a year, and

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Speaker 4: so that all stopped. There was a judge in the

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Speaker 4: Pacific Northwest who ruled that the agency had been demonstrating

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Speaker 4: a quote reckless disregard for the law in how it

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Speaker 4: was managing these forests, because it had gone from taking

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Speaker 4: this very sort of custodial approach which to protecting public

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Speaker 4: lands into this we've got to get the cutout to

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Speaker 4: meet the growing, you know, timber needs of the nation. Again,

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Speaker 4: completely well intentioned, no malice here, no ill will. And

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Speaker 4: at the same time that those spotted owls were declining,

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Speaker 4: we saw these precipitous declines in salmon and steelhead populations.

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Speaker 4: Back in the nineties. There were early nineties there was

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Speaker 4: a seminole paper that came out that documented one hundred

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Speaker 4: and six stocks of salmon from the Pacific Northwest that

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Speaker 4: had already become extinct and two hundred and fifteen that

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Speaker 4: were then at risk of extinction. And so that was

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Speaker 4: nineteen eighty nine that that injunction on timber harvest came down.

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Speaker 4: And from nineteen eighty nine until the time that Mike

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Speaker 4: Dombeck became chief eight years later, they had been cutting

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Speaker 4: about two to three and a half billion board feet

355
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Speaker 4: of timber, so down from twelve to two or three billion.

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Speaker 4: And the whole edifice of the Forest Service, this forty

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Speaker 4: thousand strong organization that oversees one hundred and ninety three

358
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Speaker 4: million acres of public land, it was built on the

359
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Speaker 4: back of this timbersale program. The biologists that so many

360
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Speaker 4: of us respected and knew as young professionals, they came up.

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Speaker 4: They were being paid for by proceeds from timber sale receipts.

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Speaker 4: All the roads that we used to access National Forest

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Speaker 4: to hunt and fish, those were built to facilitate timbersale.

364
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Speaker 4: And so the agency had been in this eight year

365
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Speaker 4: period of transition when Mike Dombeck became chief in ninety seven,

366
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Speaker 4: and it had completely lost its way. The agenda was

367
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Speaker 4: being driven by the environmental community who was litigating the

368
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Speaker 4: Forest Service into obsolescence. There were many in Congress who

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Speaker 4: were unhappy that the Forest Service wasn't getting cut out.

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Speaker 4: They weren't cutting the nine to twelve billion board feet

371
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Speaker 4: of timber anymore. There was an equal number on the

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Speaker 4: other side, who you know, we're looking at things like

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Speaker 4: the fact that the agency had oversight of a three

374
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Speaker 4: hundred and eighty six hundred thousand mile road systems wrap

375
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Speaker 4: your head around in a minute, and we were over

376
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Speaker 4: and there was about an eight and a half billion

377
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Speaker 4: dollar with a b backlog on maintenance of that existing

378
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Speaker 4: road system. And so I think what what Mike and

379
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Speaker 4: others of us who were in the agency at that

380
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Speaker 4: time decided, was, you know, why should the Forest Service

381
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Speaker 4: let other people dictate this storied conservation organization where people

382
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Speaker 4: like Arthur Carrhart worked and Bob Marshall and Aldo Leopold,

383
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Speaker 4: I mean, the fathers in this case of Rachel Carson

384
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Speaker 4: was of course efficient Wildlife Service employee. I wish we

385
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,640
Speaker 4: could have claimed her, but you know, really the fathers

386
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Speaker 4: of the modern conservation movement, of the North American wildlife

387
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 4: model came out of the Forest Service, and yet the

388
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:02,359
Speaker 4: agency had this historically very uneasy relationship with wilderness. And

389
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 4: even though Arthur Carhart and Bob Marshall and Aldo Leopold

390
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 4: in particular, are really the the whole wilderness concept originated

391
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Speaker 4: from that. The agency had this uneasy relationship with it

392
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Speaker 4: because when you designate wilderness and these are you know,

393
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Speaker 4: for the Act, these are lands where quote man is

394
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Speaker 4: a visitor who you know does not remain so and

395
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Speaker 4: you can't use any mechanical leverage when you're in wilderness.

396
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Speaker 4: You have to use your feet that God gave you.

397
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Speaker 4: And you know, that was almost anathema to how the

398
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Speaker 4: agency had begun to evolve through the sixties and the

399
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 4: seventies in the eighties, where it was this highly mechanistic,

400
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 4: highly you know, engineered organization where it's like, we're going

401
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 4: to go build these roads into these steep slope areas.

402
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 4: We're going to cut those trees we haven't been able

403
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 4: to access because we have better technology today, and then,

404
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,479
Speaker 4: by God, we're going to take that wood and get

405
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 4: it to market. And then what would happen is as

406
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,840
Speaker 4: the easier wood got taken off the National Forest System,

407
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 4: the slopes that you had to climb to get to

408
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 4: the timber that was left were steeper, and they were

409
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 4: on more granitek or erosed soils, and the timber that

410
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 4: was left it wasn't as valuable. So now the agency

411
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,400
Speaker 4: was pumping these roads into these low value areas where

412
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 4: they weren't getting the timber values they had historically gotten.

413
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Speaker 4: So they were losing money on these sales. They were

414
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 4: building these roads that were falling off the landscape into

415
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 4: these trout and salmon streams that were below them, and

416
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 4: they had this eight and a half billion dollar maintenance

417
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 4: backlog on the existing road system. And it was from

418
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 4: that background and agency's morale was in the tank. It

419
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 4: was absolutely so. I mentioned Harold Steen in that nineteen

420
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 4: sixty one work where he talked about the fabled spreed

421
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 4: core of the Forest Service. In their early nineties, they

422
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 4: came out with another survey of all the government agencies

423
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Speaker 4: in the federal government, and the number two agency with

424
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 4: the lowest morale was the US Forest And from that background,

425
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 4: that's when you know, we said, well, wait a minute,

426
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Speaker 4: most Americans value their public lands not for energy development,

427
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 4: not for oil or gas or coal. Those are important.

428
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 4: They don't value them for wood, fiber or for forage.

429
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 4: Those are also important, But most of us we value

430
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 4: those places for the sense of naturalness they provide, and

431
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 4: the wildness and clean water, and the fish and wildlife habitat,

432
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Speaker 4: and the fact that they are what remains. They're the

433
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Speaker 4: you know, I have said this before in a different context,

434
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 4: but the public lands are They're the anvil upon which

435
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 4: the character of the nation was hammered out as we

436
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 4: migrated our way west. And unlike every other country in

437
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 4: the world, we had the wisdom to keep them intact,

438
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 4: to save them, because we realized that just as you know,

439
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 4: you you know, the Egyptians take pride in their in

440
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 4: their pyramids, and in Italy prides itself on its ancient cathedrals.

441
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 4: France it's museums. We have our public lands, and those

442
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 4: are as much as what it means to be American

443
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 4: as anything else in the United States. And so anyway,

444
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 4: that was the backdrop, and I think Mike, who was

445
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 4: leading this organization, was saying, I don't want the courts

446
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 4: to be driving our conservation agenda. And God bless the

447
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 4: environmental community, because if they hadn't raised the alarm, we

448
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 4: probably would have taken all the old growth. But I

449
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 4: don't want them driving our agenda either, And you know,

450
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 4: I really don't want members of Congress who definitely have

451
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 4: to appropriate the dollars we need. But you know, there's

452
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 4: very few foresters in Congress. They shouldn't be driving the agenda.

453
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 4: Let's take back. Let's take back the agenda. The first

454
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 4: thing he said was, look, you know we were governed

455
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 4: in large park by We called it the rule of holes.

456
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 4: And I'll stop here, Marcus, I probably gave you more

457
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 4: than you wanted. The rule of holes. It's quite simple.

458
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 4: When you're dig in a hole and you find yourself

459
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 4: over your head, the first thing to do is put

460
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 4: down the shovel, and that's what we wanted to do.

461
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 4: We wanted to put down the shovel. It's like, look,

462
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 4: we can't take care of this road system we already have.

463
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 4: It's three hundred and eighty six thousand miles strong, but

464
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 4: it's fallen off these hillsides into creeks all across the

465
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 4: United States. Let's focus on doing a better job of

466
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 4: managing access into our national forests. So because people love

467
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 4: to get in there, but also let's realize that these

468
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 4: remaining roadless areas, as I said earlier, the timber values

469
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 4: are typically low. They're hard to get to, or we

470
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 4: would have cut them previously, and what's happened over time

471
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 4: is their fish and wildlife values have just flown off

472
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 4: the chart. And so we said there is an inherent

473
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 4: value in keeping these places wild. Let's keep them wild.

474
00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: Now.

475
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 4: That doesn't mean you can't go in to them. I mean,

476
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 4: we'll talk about this when we talk about this proposal

477
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 4: that's been offered by the administration. But there's been a

478
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 4: ton of management that has occurred in these roads areas.

479
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 4: But what it means is you don't need to pump

480
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 4: a road in everywhere. Yeah right, you know. I mean,

481
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 4: today's technology is so much better than it was in

482
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 4: the sixties and the seventies, where you couldn't do a

483
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 4: timber sale back then if you didn't build a road.

484
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 4: That is not the case today. And so anyway, that's

485
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 4: what that was the backdrop that led to, you know,

486
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 4: the promulgation of the roadless Area Conservation Rule, which ended

487
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 4: up protecting fifty eight and a half million acres back

488
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 4: in two thousand and one.

489
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 3: That is an amazing context for us, and that's perfect

490
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 3: And to your point, there's all these important resources that

491
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: we can garner from our public lands. But one of

492
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 3: those resources that is becoming more and more rare across

493
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 3: the world, and by default more and more valuable. Because

494
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 3: of that are those las few unroaded places. We have

495
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 3: transformed more than fifty percent of the Earth's surface, Far

496
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 3: more of our forests, far more of our grasslands have disappeared.

497
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 3: I mean we have across this nation. We have so

498
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 3: few places left like this. And you know, Roosevelt and

499
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 3: Pinchot when they were establishing all this, they spoke about

500
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 3: maybe the north star of all of our management should

501
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 3: be thinking about future generations, not making decisions for the

502
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 3: short term only, but also thinking about the long term.

503
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 4: I think that is well, you just you nailed it. Mark.

504
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 4: In fact, Gifford Pinchot, you know this is one of

505
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 4: these things. Those of us who are in DC love

506
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 4: these things, and I've been involved in this too. He

507
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 4: wrote direction for the Secretary of Agriculture to then be

508
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 4: given to himself. The direction that he wrote was that

509
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 4: the national forests should be managed for the greatest number,

510
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 4: for the longest time. And I'm getting that quote wrong,

511
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 4: And I know my friends from the Forest Service are

512
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 4: going to get mad at me for not remember but.

513
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: The greatest number, for the greatest good for the longest time.

514
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 4: For the longest time. That's it. Thank you, Mark, you

515
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 4: just saved me. But that's the that's the point, right,

516
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 4: I mean when when when these reserves, they were called

517
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 4: forest reserves, were created, they were designed to be almost

518
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 4: like a bulwark against the liquidation of timberlands across private

519
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 4: land across America and state lands. I mean, that's you know,

520
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 4: one of the reasons that organizations like Child Unlimited have

521
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 4: a hard time looking at, you know this notion, well,

522
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 4: we won't divest your public lands. We won't sell them

523
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 4: to rich people who are going to build fences and

524
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 4: post them no no trespassing. We'll just give them to

525
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 4: the states to manage. Well, most of the states, almost

526
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 4: all the western states, have constitutional mandates to manage their

527
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 4: state lands to generate revenues for schools and roads. And

528
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 4: so that's why most of the states have sold most

529
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 4: of their state lands. And that would exactly be the

530
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 4: future of the National Forests or the BLM public plans,

531
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 4: which is why you know, what the Senate was considering

532
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 4: a month or so ago was so by the time

533
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 4: this is shown, was you know, considered offensive to so

534
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 4: many of us who hunt and fish. But what Pinchot

535
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 4: and Roosevelt and those early pioneers in the Forest Service

536
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 4: saw is that these are lands that should be managed

537
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 4: conservatively for the long run. And the most conservative, I mean,

538
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 4: one of the most conservative policies that I can think

539
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 4: of that the US government has implemented over the past

540
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 4: twenty five years is the Roadless Area Conservation Rule because

541
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 4: it basically says we're going to keep intact these systems

542
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 4: that are unroaded. They're not unmanaged. You know, we can

543
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 4: talk about that there's been a ton of forest health

544
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 4: treatments in these in these roadless area landscapes. But you know,

545
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 4: the true definition of conservation is to It comes from

546
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 4: the Latin word conservaari conservai, and that means to hold

547
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 4: or keep in a safe state. And that's precisely what

548
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 4: the roadless Rule did, is it keptain held in a

549
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 4: safe state these backcountry areas.

550
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 3: Okay, So that is what led us to this point

551
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 3: where the Forest Service realized, Okay, we need to do

552
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 3: something a little bit different. We need to regain some

553
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 3: sense of agency for our agency. Yeah, to termine how this.

554
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: Thing is going to move forward.

555
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 3: Can you spell out for me how how you and

556
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 3: the Chief chief domback and the rest of the team

557
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 3: were able to develop the road the roadless rule as.

558
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: It as it stands. Now what that looked like.

559
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 3: And I know there was so much controversy, There was

560
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 3: so much back and forth, something like one point six

561
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 3: million public comments, I believe on the proposal. So I'd

562
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 3: love to understand what that looked like and then what

563
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 3: led to the final output, Like what the final output

564
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 3: looked like given all of this back and forth and

565
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 3: public perspectives and everything like that.

566
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, so one of the things I've appreciated

567
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 4: about I started my career early on at the Bureau

568
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 4: of Land Management and then and then I moved over

569
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 4: to the Forest Service during this period that we're talking about,

570
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 4: and you know, the wisdom that was imparted to me

571
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 4: by these long time career professionals has guided me to

572
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 4: this day. And I I've written about this in the past.

573
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 4: It's what's so offensive to me about how a lot

574
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 4: of these public servants have been treated because they're good people.

575
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 4: And there's not a single person who didn't go to

576
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 4: work for the US Forest Service or the Bureau of

577
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 4: Land Management, not a single one who didn't go because

578
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 4: they wanted to make the world a better place. That's

579
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 4: what they all wanted. And so but I say that,

580
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 4: but what I wasn't hampered with at that time in

581
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 4: my life was a thirty year career at the same agency.

582
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,959
Speaker 4: And so you know, it's why I alwaysppreciate, you know,

583
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 4: with Trout Unlimited, when we bring in younger people into

584
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 4: the management ranks or into leadership positions, because they just

585
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 4: look at the world slightly different. They're not stuck in

586
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 4: the same ruts that I'm now stuck. But at the time,

587
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 4: I remember thinking, so, we've got this an eight and

588
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 4: a half billion dollar maintenance backlog. We've got a road

589
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 4: system we can't take care of. The other thing I

590
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 4: hadn't mentioned is that the House of Representatives had passed

591
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 4: a vote and amendment that would have cut the Forest

592
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 4: Service's road budget by eighty percent, including all the maintenance

593
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 4: of the existing road system. And they did that as

594
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 4: a surrogate to get us to stop building new roads

595
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 4: into roads. Every one of these roadless sales, every one

596
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 4: of them were litigated. They were all held up in court.

597
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 4: And we're talking about timber sales that lose money. So

598
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 4: it's like we're expending public tax dollars to get into

599
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 4: these areas that have low timber values, to put a

600
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 4: bunch of roads on the landscape that are going to

601
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 4: fall off, and they're going to ruin the fisheries down below.

602
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 4: And by the way, they're going to increase fire starts

603
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 4: because roads increase fire starts, and they're going to drive

604
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 4: out ungulate they're going to drive out wild populations. And

605
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 4: so I looked at that, you know, the eyes of it,

606
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 4: you know, a young guy, and I was like, well,

607
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 4: why are we doing this at all? Right, like if

608
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 4: we can't get the timber out anyway. It was a

609
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 4: completely incidental contribution to the Forest Service timber base. I

610
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 4: mean we're talking this was less than it was like

611
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 4: a percent, and that was a that was a prixotic

612
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 4: percent because it was always held up in court for

613
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 4: fifteen years. So the value of that percent decreased over

614
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 4: every year that it was held up at court. And

615
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 4: and so we just and then and then we started

616
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 4: thinking about, like, well, what is it most people really

617
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 4: care about public lands for? And again it command we

618
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 4: had been managing these landscapes for thirty forty years as

619
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 4: this bread basket of commodity to be brought to market.

620
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 4: But but nobody else thought of them that way. These

621
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 4: were places where families that couldn't afford to go to,

622
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 4: you know, a resort, would take their kids camping in

623
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 4: the summer. They were places where, you know, when you know,

624
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 4: I have the benefit of working a child unlimited, and

625
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 4: sometimes I get to go to these swank places where

626
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 4: you know, it costs like thousand dollars a day to fish.

627
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 4: Most Americans can't afford that. We can go to your

628
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 4: public lands. You can catch brook chout in the Green

629
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 4: Mountain National Forest to your heart's content or closer to me, uh,

630
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 4: you know the you know, the Monogahila in West Virginia

631
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 4: for brook chowd or out west. There's countless national forests

632
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 4: where you can go to, all of which are strongholds

633
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 4: for native fish. And so we realized that was the seat,

634
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 4: that was the switch we had to make, and frankly

635
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 4: it was it was incredibly controversial, not only outside the

636
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 4: Forest Service but inside the agency. It was controversial because

637
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 4: you had these people who, you know, their forest their

638
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 4: engineers there there can do people, they solve problems, they

639
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 4: know how to fix things, and they were like, no,

640
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 4: we can build better roads. We can, we can you know,

641
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 4: figure out different ways to get into those back country areas.

642
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 4: And it was like, yeah, we could, and I don't

643
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 4: doubt that, but we could also just leave them alone,

644
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 4: just leave them as God created them. Let's have what's

645
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 4: wrong with having some reference landscapes from a fish and

646
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 4: wildlife perspective, and you know how big the hunting and

647
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,959
Speaker 4: fishing economies are in this country. Those are our nurseries. Man,

648
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 4: Let's leave them alone. They're not going anywhere if we

649
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,919
Speaker 4: discover some you know, you know, rare earth mineral that's

650
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 4: gonna you know, save America from being colonized by Martians

651
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,479
Speaker 4: down the line, and we need to go get it. Okay, fine,

652
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 4: well go get it, but for now, let's just leave

653
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 4: them intact. And that was the big shift in thinking

654
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 4: that happened back when we did the rule, and it was,

655
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 4: as I say, it was incredibly controversial internally. It was

656
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 4: also controversial externally kind of sort of of those ninety

657
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,720
Speaker 4: you know, of those you know, one point eight million,

658
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 4: I think it was comments that came in ninety seven

659
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 4: freaking percent were in support of protecting roadless soviets or

660
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 4: even stronger. And the one thing I would say I

661
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 4: would be remiss not to say, was there has been

662
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 4: a sea change in thinking at the Forest Service over

663
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 4: the past twenty four years, and today some of the

664
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 4: strongest advocates for roadless protection come from within the United

665
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 4: States Forest Service. This is not a proposal that they

666
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 4: would have put out there, guaranteed. This is not being

667
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 4: driven by the professionals and for a service. You know,

668
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 4: this is a political directive that's been given to them,

669
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 4: and I don't know that they have the stomach for this.

670
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 4: So we'll have to see what happens through this rulemaking

671
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 4: because I I think, as I said earlier, I think

672
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 4: some of the strongest advocates for roadless protection today are

673
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 4: United States Forest Service employees, and I don't think they

674
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 4: want to go back to the battle days where everything's

675
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,919
Speaker 4: going to get litigated and held up in court.

676
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 3: So so you helped write this correct You worked with

677
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 3: the chief and the.

678
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,280
Speaker 2: Staff there to actually develop Yeah, there was a team.

679
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 4: There was a team of agency professionals who did almost

680
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 4: all the heavy lifting. I was I was like the

681
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 4: style game, okay, you know, but I did a lot

682
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 4: of media work and I did a lot of interagency coordination.

683
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 4: And as I we mentioned before this call, one of

684
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 4: my jobs was to take all the meetings that the

685
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 4: chief didn't want to take, which was, you know, just

686
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 4: about all the meetings. And so I heard from a

687
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 4: lot of different communities about this topic. But but yeah,

688
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 4: I was there. I mean I was there on that team,

689
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 4: and I was a part of it.

690
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 3: Okay, So I want to I want to dive into

691
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 3: a little bit more of what resulted of this rule

692
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 3: being put in place and finalized. But I think another

693
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 3: important thing to note is that you know this, the

694
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,439
Speaker 3: Forest Service has a multiple use mandate and this did

695
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 3: not change that, and that this impacted fifty eight point

696
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 3: five million acres of national forest and then there was

697
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 3: another you know, x million acres of wilderness, of designated wilderness.

698
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 3: But then that's still left I think more than one

699
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 3: hundred million acres of or close to that of national

700
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,240
Speaker 3: forest lands that were still managed fully multiple use, still

701
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 3: being utilized as a resource, still you know, supporting local

702
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 3: communities that did have some timber jobs, et cetera.

703
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: Correct.

704
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 3: So it wasn't like we were with this roadless rule

705
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 3: shutting down you know, utilizing the forest resources.

706
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 4: Correct, No, that's exactly right, Mark, I mean look, and

707
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 4: to be clear, right, I mean you remiss not to

708
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 4: say this wilderness is a multiple use. You know, roadless

709
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 4: protection is a multiple use. Leaving these places intact for

710
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 4: future generations is a multiple use. But yeah, and even

711
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 4: after these areas were protected, we've the trout To Limited

712
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 4: Science team has been coming up with some groundbreaking work

713
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 4: that we haven't released yet, but I'll let you in

714
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 4: on some things I literally got just yesterday. So in

715
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 4: the state of Montana, for example, twenty six percent of

716
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 4: all the lands that have been treated for hazardous fuels

717
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 4: in the past twenty four years have been within inventoried

718
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 4: roads series. That number climbs to thirty one percent in

719
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 4: the state of Utah, where the proposal emanated to sell

720
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 4: or divest our public land legacy, and so these landscapes.

721
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,720
Speaker 4: We didn't say you can't go in there and manage

722
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 4: for hazardous fuels. We didn't say you can't go in

723
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 4: there and build, you know, develop oil and gas resources.

724
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 4: We didn't say you can't go in there and you know,

725
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 4: and do hard rock mining if you've got a valid,

726
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 4: existing right to do that. We just said you can't

727
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 4: build a road. And you know, like I said earlier,

728
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 4: we're not in the sixties anymore. There's a lot more

729
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 4: ways to access landscapes today than there are building super

730
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 4: expensive roads that have a tendency to want to fall

731
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 4: off the landscape into rivers below. So there's been a

732
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 4: tremendous amount of forest health treatments in and outside of

733
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 4: roadless areas. Inside of roadless areas, I should say, over

734
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 4: the past nearly quarter century, where the agency needs to

735
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 4: be focused are where those forests are that adjoin human communities.

736
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 4: That's where most of the forest health treatments need to

737
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 4: take place. We have to protect people in human communities first,

738
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 4: and that is where I'm not suggesting that these treatments

739
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 4: that I mentioned In places like Utah and Montana, Idaho,

740
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 4: they've treated over a million acres of roadless lands for

741
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 4: forest health purposes in the past twenty five years. I'm

742
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 4: not suggesting that any of that work is bad. I'm

743
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 4: sure it's all good and legitimate work. But what is

744
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 4: erroneous is to suggest that because of the roadless rule,

745
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 4: forest health treatments, hazardous fuels reductions not occur in roadless areas.

746
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 4: That is a canard that's simply not true. It's belied

747
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 4: by the data. But perhaps the more significant public policy

748
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 4: issue that we should wrestle with as hunters and anglers

749
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 4: is where do we want the Forest Service doing these

750
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 4: hazardous fuels reduction projects? Do we want them going into

751
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 4: the back country areas or do we want them hanging

752
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 4: around the front country where the fires are going to

753
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 4: come down and creep off the national forest primarily from

754
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 4: roadedge systems where the vast majority of fire ignition start.

755
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 4: And you've got these overgrown forests that already have roads,

756
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 4: And why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you focus your treatments

757
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 4: on those areas adjacent to the so called wildland urban interviews.

758
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 3: Yes, so I want to take a step back and

759
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 3: explain this a little bit more for people that maybe

760
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 3: aren't familiar.

761
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: So when the roads.

762
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 3: Rule went into place, it kept this fifty eight point

763
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 3: five million acre swath from having new additional roads. In

764
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 3: the years since, and really in the years before that,

765
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 3: we had wildfire suppression policies that led to, you know,

766
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 3: natural fires not happening the way they used to. The

767
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 3: management of our forests for many different reasons, maybe has

768
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 3: changed in certain ways. That has led to some places

769
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 3: being maybe heavily stocked with fuels, and now we have

770
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 3: everything with our changing climate that's leading to dryer you

771
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 3: know spells and fuel that is just ready and just

772
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 3: waiting for a spark to set off. All of that

773
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 3: has led to you know, wildfire issues. There's the whole

774
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 3: pine beetle outbreak over recent decades has led to a

775
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 3: whole lot of dead trees as well. So long story short,

776
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 3: Today many politicians like to say that we have undermanaged

777
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 3: forests that are bad for wildlife and that are bad

778
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 3: for catastrophic wildfire, and so that's bad for hunters and anglers,

779
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 3: and that's bad for the health of surrounding communities. And

780
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 3: I hear many people blaming that on the roadless rule,

781
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 3: blaming that on the environmental communities, you know, advocating for

782
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:05,439
Speaker 3: protection of our national force.

783
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: So so that's that's the pushback.

784
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 3: It's saying, hey, because you guys have these worldless areas

785
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 3: or because you designated wilders, now we're not managing our forests.

786
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 3: That's why it's not supporting as many wildlife. That's why

787
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 3: we have horrible wildfires. We need to get in there

788
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 3: and do different things.

789
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 2: So that's the critique.

790
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 3: Can you take that critique and more and be a

791
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 3: little more specific with explaining your perspective on why that

792
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 3: is not true.

793
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: Because he just did. But I'd love for you to

794
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: address it.

795
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeaheah, Yeah, I'm you know, I'm sitting here. My

796
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 4: parents are much on my mind because this is the

797
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 4: place where we always retreated as a family for the

798
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 4: past thirty years where I am now And as I

799
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 4: mentioned earlier, Mom just passed away and Dad passed away

800
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 4: a few years before. Dad was one of he was

801
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 4: voted one of one hundred best basketball players in Newark history,

802
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 4: and he played in like nineteen fifty five. I mean,

803
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 4: so the fact that they remembered him today, it's a

804
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:06,720
Speaker 4: remarkable For a few years ago, and I remember telling

805
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 4: my dad and I played basketball, and I remember telling Dad,

806
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 4: you know, the reason I'm not a good basketball player

807
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 4: is that I stopped growing at six', One and he would, say, No,

808
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 4: chris the reason you're not as good as you could

809
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,919
Speaker 4: have been because you didn't practice hardbough and you didn't

810
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 4: work enough on your off, hand and you had too

811
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 4: many other things that distracted you and kept you preoccupied

812
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,240
Speaker 4: from becoming a great basketball. Player saying that the roadless

813
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 4: rule is keeping is contributing to those problems that you

814
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 4: described well a moment ago mark is like saying That

815
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 4: chris didn't become a good basketball player at six one

816
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 4: six y two because he didn't grow a couple more.

817
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 4: Inches it's just not. True the fact is that across

818
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 4: The Western United, states every single landscape are systems that

819
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 4: evolved with, fire and some, cases like on the west

820
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 4: side of The, cascades the fire was what we would

821
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,720
Speaker 4: call catastrophic, today would come every one hundred or two hundred,

822
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 4: years and in lodge pole stands it would do this,

823
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 4: naturally it would come, in you'd have these big. Disturbances

824
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 4: you'd either have wind throw that would knock all the

825
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 4: seventy five year old lodge pole, over or you'd have

826
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 4: big fires that would move through and burn it all

827
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 4: to the. Ground we you, know starting you, know one

828
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 4: of the you, know legacy issues of the Early Forest

829
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 4: service was every fire should be put out by ten.

830
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,959
Speaker 4: Am and so what we did is we we took these,

831
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 4: systems these ecological systems that evolved with, fire and we

832
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 4: said no more fire every by ten. Am Forest services

833
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 4: standing orders where we're going to put fire. Out AND

834
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 4: i mean it was a completely understandable. Reaction we had

835
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 4: horrible fires that killed multiple, firefighters burnt communities to the

836
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 4: ground in places Like idaho And, montana and they happened.

837
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 4: Today it's it's not just a relic of the. Past them,

838
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,959
Speaker 4: afraid but it's in part because we've you, know there's

839
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 4: there's for those of us who study, rivers there's a

840
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 4: there's a saying you. Can't you can't ever divorce a

841
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 4: river from its. Floodplain you can, try you can dig,

842
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 4: it you can dike, it you can ditch, it you

843
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 4: can build burns up alongside, it but eventually that river

844
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 4: is going to find its floodplain and it's going to

845
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 4: take everything in the floodplain with it. Downstream and you

846
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 4: can't divorce these fire adapted systems from. Fire it just

847
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 4: can't be. Done and so the answer then, is, well

848
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 4: how do you in the places where we've built. Communities

849
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 4: we can't unbuild. THEM i don't think that's, Realistic but

850
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 4: we can take steps to make those communities themselves really.

851
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 4: Safe we can make sure that they don't have wood shingle,

852
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 4: roofs we can make sure that they don't have you,

853
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 4: know landscaping close flammable landscaping close to the. House we

854
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 4: can make sure that if they're adjacent To National force

855
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 4: forests ninety five percent of which will have been roaded,

856
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 4: already they'll be part of the general forest structure that

857
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 4: you mentioned. Earlier we can make sure that we have

858
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 4: done a lot of thinning and other treatments in those

859
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 4: landscapes so that if a fire does, start because a

860
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 4: fire will, start it's gonna, happen that we have a

861
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 4: better chance of knocking it. Down that we don't have

862
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 4: all these because the results of every fire out by

863
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 4: ten am was instead of having you, know twenty five

864
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 4: trees per acre in some, stands we'd have one hundred and.

865
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 4: Fifty there's just a lot more fuel than there used to.

866
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 4: Be and what happens is over time if you don't

867
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 4: go in and manage these. Stands So i'm agreeing on

868
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 4: the management. Part you, know you have stands that are

869
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 4: different levels of the, canopy and so the fire will create,

870
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 4: it it'll climb until you get it, exactly and you'll

871
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 4: get these so called stand replacement. Fires and so we

872
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 4: need to be able to get into these landscapes and

873
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 4: look at ecologically where should they have? Been can we

874
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 4: safely reintroduce fire and in those landscapes where we, can by,

875
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 4: god we need to do. That we can't pretend. TO i,

876
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 4: mean some of WHAT i hear today at The Forest,

877
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 4: service it's almost like we're just sort of trying to

878
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 4: forget about thirty forty years of fire. Science like the

879
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 4: agency knows that we've got to get more fire back

880
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 4: into these, systems but we have to do it in

881
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 4: a safe. Way and the way you do it in

882
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 4: a safe way is you make sure that the communities

883
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 4: themselves are protecting, themselves that the forests around the communities are,

884
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 4: protected and by, gosh if those are roadless areas adjacent

885
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 4: to those, communities and we need to make sure they

886
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 4: were going in, there and you, know reducing unnaturally large

887
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 4: fuel loads to thereby reduce unnaturally large. Fires and that

888
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 4: gets to a really important point THAT i want to.

889
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 4: Make i'm not suggesting that we haven't learned anything relative

890
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 4: to forest management or fire science over the past twenty four.

891
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 4: Years that we had all the thinking right twenty four years.

892
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 4: Ago AND i think if the administration had come in and, said,

893
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 4: look we want to look at this rule in the

894
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 4: context of what we've learned over the intervening couple decades

895
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 4: and make sure we're applying the best science to better

896
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 4: protecting these extremely important ecological values of roadless. Areas oh

897
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 4: and making sure that these communities are safe. TOO i,

898
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 4: mean troud and limited would be at the, leader we'd

899
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 4: be right in the front of that. Conversation but that's

900
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 4: not what they're. Saying they're, basically you, know coming up

901
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 4: with these sort of artificial nineteen forties era arguments that

902
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 4: we need to build roads into roadless areas to fight,

903
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 4: fires we need to build. Roads there's not a firefighter

904
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 4: In america who will tell you that you need to

905
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,479
Speaker 4: build a road when there's a fire on the ground

906
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 4: to put out a. Fire that's just as a that's,

907
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 4: dissembling that's all that. Is But i'm not suggesting that

908
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 4: there might be some other techniques that we want to

909
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 4: specify that should be applied in treating some of these

910
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 4: landscapes that we did know about a, while you, know

911
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 4: twenty four years. Ago but unfortunately that hasn't been the

912
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 4: direction that the administration has taken. Initially and you, know

913
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 4: my hope is that with enough voices from enough hunters and,

914
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 4: anglers they'll change that perspective and they'll they'll they'll pivot

915
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 4: to something that looks at this from a more constructive

916
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,800
Speaker 4: method of how do we better protect roadless areas and

917
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 4: better protect human?

918
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 3: Communities now correct me If i'm, wrong and you would

919
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 3: know this much better THAN. I but weren't there some

920
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 3: exceptions built into the roleless rule that said that roads

921
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 3: could be built into these places if it was needed

922
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,879
Speaker 3: to protect public health and safety and because of catastrophic.

923
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 3: Wildfire and weren't there exceptions that said that if management

924
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 3: more active management was needed to help threaten wildlife species

925
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 3: and you could do this with some cutting of small diameter,

926
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 3: trees roads could be built to accomplish those goals. Too

927
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:10,439
Speaker 3: so weren't there some kind of roundabouts to address these.

928
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 4: Concerns, yeah it's exactly, Right, Mark and one of the

929
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 4: things that we're, doing you, know, Sadly i'm not sure

930
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 4: we can expect The Forest service to do, it but

931
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,279
Speaker 4: one of the things that we're doing is looking at

932
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 4: those like you, KNOW i mentioned to you that you

933
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 4: know the stats About utah And, Montana idaho And arkansas

934
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 4: where the chairman of The House Natural Resources committee. Lives

935
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 4: a third of all the roadless areas in the state

936
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 4: Of arkansas have been treated for hazardous fuel treatments under

937
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 4: these exceptions that you're talking. About so there was a

938
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 4: prohibition on timber cutting except for you, know the kind

939
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,919
Speaker 4: of timber cutting that it leads to the forest health

940
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 4: treatments that we're talking, about the hazardous fuels reductions that

941
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 4: need to be, done and so we're trying to document

942
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:53,959
Speaker 4: all of that and get it all in on. Place

943
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 4: well at the same time looking at the SO i,

944
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 4: mean just take like the state Of. Idaho if you

945
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 4: look at the fisheries values of roadless areas in the

946
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 4: state Of, idaho sixty eight percent of all bull trout

947
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 4: are dependent on roadless areas for their, survival fifty eight

948
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 4: percent of all west in the state Of, idaho of

949
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,320
Speaker 4: all west slope cutthroat trout are dependent on roadless areas

950
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 4: for their survival seventy four. Percent nearly three quarters of

951
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 4: all the habitat for chinook and steelhead are found in

952
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 4: roadless areas in the state Of. IDAHO i, mean he's

953
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 4: and you, know and again going back To, idaho BECAUSE

954
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 4: i used to hunt out there in the Frank Church

955
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 4: River No Return. Wilderness the longest center fire rifle seasons

956
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 4: are in roadless areas in the state Of idaho because

957
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 4: that's where the most game. Is and so you, know

958
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 4: we're we're working really hard AT tu to make sure

959
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 4: that all that data is put into the public, conversation

960
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 4: because the agency is going to have to go through

961
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,760
Speaker 4: what they call a rule making. Process they can't undo

962
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 4: the roadless rule with the stroke of a. Pen they

963
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 4: have to have what they call no notice and comment

964
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 4: where people get to view their. Opinions they have to

965
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 4: disclose the effects of what the federal government wants to

966
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 4: do in a public. Forum that's where they analyze the

967
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 4: effects of you, know their proposed. Actions AND i just

968
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 4: CAN'T i can't stress enough how important it. Will it's

969
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 4: so easy for, people and especially hunters and. Anglers you,

970
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,280
Speaker 4: know we'd rather be in the woods around the. Water

971
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 4: the last thing we want to do is sit at

972
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 4: a computer and type up a note to some bureaucrat

973
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 4: somewhere who you, know we don't think is going to

974
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 4: pay attention to. It so it's so easy for us

975
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 4: to just Say i'm not going to. Bother but it

976
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 4: is so important that hunters and anglers make their voices

977
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,479
Speaker 4: heard on this rule more than any. Other. Now three weeks,

978
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 4: AGO i would have said the same thing about the

979
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 4: whole effort to divest public, plans because that was truly

980
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 4: a boneheaded, proposal and we would have stood to gain

981
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 4: or lose the most and gain the. Least, today there's

982
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 4: no question in my mind that the road this rule

983
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 4: is the single most important regulation that benefits hunting and

984
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 4: fishing In. America and woe to us if we don't

985
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 4: make our voices, heard because we are not people who

986
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 4: live in. Cities GENERALLY i, do but you know we're,

987
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 4: not you, know urban dwellers who have this sort of

988
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 4: disassociated relationship with, Nature like these landscapes are visceral and

989
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 4: real to. Us WHEN i hunt in our land In West,

990
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,839
Speaker 4: virginia OR i hunt on The monoghahila or the Frank church,

991
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 4: like you, Know i'm in the. Zone i'm in my happy.

992
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 4: Place and typically we're a more conservative lot than most

993
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,839
Speaker 4: people who are who will participate in these. Processes and

994
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 4: the only way we're going to be able to convince

995
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 4: the administration to pivot to looking at this from the

996
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,399
Speaker 4: context of what new information can we bring to bear

997
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,800
Speaker 4: to better manage world this areas and better protect human.

998
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 4: COMMUNITIES i believe the only community that will be able

999
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,280
Speaker 4: to help them ttration pivot are probably hunters and. Angles

1000
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 4: and we've got to make our voices heard in a

1001
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 4: way that they've never been heard. Before and you know, What,

1002
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 4: Mark i'll tell you. THIS i told you this earlier

1003
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 4: BECAUSE i know we're probably running. OUT i remember WHEN

1004
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:14,240
Speaker 4: i took all those meetings for The chief of The Forest.

1005
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 4: SERVICE i met with all the regulated, industries the oil

1006
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 4: and gas, guys the coal, guys the timber, folks all of.

1007
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 4: Them AND i met with all the environmental. Community they

1008
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 4: all came, In Sierra, club The Center's, wildlife all of

1009
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 4: them came one side saying you're doing too, Much you're

1010
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 4: trying to do too, much the other side saying you're

1011
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 4: not doing, Enough you're not doing. ENOUGH i never had

1012
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 4: a single meeting request from an organization that represented hunters and,

1013
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 4: angles not, one not. One the constituency that stood to

1014
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,839
Speaker 4: gain the most was the most absent from this rule

1015
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 4: making the first time. Around and we have directly hunting

1016
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 4: and hunters and angles have directly benefited from the roadless

1017
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 4: rule in the intervening two and a half, decades and

1018
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:58,879
Speaker 4: if we want to see that kept, intact we want

1019
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 4: to see those the benefits of those protections. Continued it's

1020
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 4: absolutely imperative we not sit this one. Out we have

1021
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 4: got to make our voices.

1022
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 3: Heard and you, know one of the most tangible challenges

1023
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 3: of our modern day world as a hunter and angler,

1024
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 3: today and the thing THAT i think gets the most

1025
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 3: people complaining and upset and riled up is how access

1026
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 3: has changed and how busy it's, getting whether it be you,

1027
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 3: know our public land hunting opportunities are a lousy now

1028
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 3: because there's so many people, everywhere or if it's well

1029
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 3: you can't float The madison of The Henry's fork without

1030
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 3: a without a drift, boat hatch and dozens and dozens

1031
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 3: and dozens of other people, right, well it is these roadless,

1032
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 3: areas these last handful of places that we have where

1033
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 3: we have the opportunity to have some degree of, solitude

1034
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 3: where many of like the last best elk hunting, spots

1035
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 3: last best mule deer hunting, spots the last best places

1036
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 3: that we are that we are clamoring for and hoping

1037
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 3: we can get to. Someday that's what's at stake, here

1038
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,399
Speaker 3: those blue lines that you mentioned, earlier where you can

1039
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 3: get away from folks and still have that wild experience

1040
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 3: that no longer can you really have on The madison

1041
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 3: or down here by me on The Henry's fork or

1042
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 3: The South. Fork even these places are, rightfully they're very. Popular,

1043
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 3: yeah we have these last best hunting and fishing locations

1044
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 3: that are very very tangible FOR i think those of

1045
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 3: us who care about these things so and it's important

1046
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 3: To and they're.

1047
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 2: Free they're, free and they're.

1048
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 4: Free there are is. There they're a birthright of being

1049
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 4: An american, citizen AND i can you, KNOW i can't

1050
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 4: guarantee it, obviously but the pressure you're going to find

1051
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 4: in roadless areas if you're either deer or elk, hunting

1052
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 4: it's not going to compare to what you're going to

1053
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:46,919
Speaker 4: find on The National Forest, system where most people pull

1054
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 4: off on a road to build a campsite and fell

1055
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 4: camp and they walk around the woods and they'll see

1056
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 4: all their buddies and camel out with. Them, yeah you,

1057
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 4: know you just it's a completely different experience. There you're

1058
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 4: in these back country area and.

1059
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 3: An, again like people like to complain and, say, well

1060
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 3: roads mean access and access is, important and we already

1061
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 3: have nearly four hundred thousand miles of rows through our Forest,

1062
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 3: service so there's plenty of places for places for folks

1063
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 3: who want that easy. Access we have just a handful

1064
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 3: of these places left that you can actually have to

1065
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 3: really hike. In so those, places like the last ones we,

1066
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 3: have let's let's protect that one of the multiple. Uses

1067
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 3: and then again to what we've talked about over and over.

1068
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 3: Again you, know everyone wants to go back to what

1069
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 3: we need to. Better we need to more actively manage our.

1070
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 3: Forests and as we've, discussed there's tens and tens and

1071
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 3: tens and tens of millions of acres where we can

1072
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 3: have every type of active management you.

1073
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 2: Want and, yes we need to continue to.

1074
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 3: Find more ways to make sure the litigation doesn't hold

1075
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 3: up the appropriate wildlife benefiting.

1076
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 2: Management we need to make sure that we're.

1077
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 3: Appropriate we do allow for sustainable extraction of timber and

1078
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 3: the right places to be. Done, absolutely as you were,

1079
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 3: describing there's a real need for management to deal with

1080
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 3: these wildfire. Issues there's exceptions in the roadless rule to

1081
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 3: allow certain things to be done, still so these things

1082
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 3: are not mutually. Exclusive we can have active management and

1083
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 3: fire management and.

1084
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 2: Still protect these last roadless places.

1085
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 3: TOO i think that's something that a lot of the

1086
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 3: politicians today want to pretend that you have to choose

1087
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 3: one or the.

1088
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 4: Other and that's just as they make it a zero some,

1089
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 4: game and it's. NOT i, mean the fact is that

1090
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 4: the opponents of the roadless rule have a philosophical argument

1091
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 4: that they're, making and that philosophical argument is that any

1092
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 4: constraint on our ability to do anything we want on

1093
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 4: the landscape is. Problematic what we those of us who

1094
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 4: are advocates for keeping those places, intact what we have

1095
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 4: on our side are substantive arguments because of everything you just, Said,

1096
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 4: Mark because there are exceptions to this rule that allow for,

1097
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 4: management because there are so many higher priority areas that

1098
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 4: need to have active management done to protect more people

1099
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 4: than these remote by definition, landscapes and and AND i

1100
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 4: think the important thing is that you, know we still

1101
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 4: live in a. Democracy. Right we're Not, england, Right these

1102
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 4: aren't this Isn't, robinhood these aren't this isn't The king's, forests,

1103
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 4: Right this is these are our. Forests they're our, forests

1104
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 4: and The Forest service work for, us and and so

1105
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 4: and by, extensions so does the. Administration and SO i

1106
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 4: just THINK i still very much believe in in the

1107
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 4: power of, democracy AND i believe in the power of

1108
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 4: individual voices to make a difference in the way our,

1109
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 4: lands our lands and waters are. Managed AND i just

1110
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 4: think it's incumbent on all of us to make sure

1111
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 4: that we make sure that we our voices are. Heard

1112
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 4: you can do it through organizations Like Trout, unlimited Or

1113
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 4: Backcountry hunters And anglers Or Theodore Roosevelt Conservation, Partnership National

1114
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 4: Wildlie federation as a whole host of. Us now it's

1115
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 4: not like back you, know twenty four years, ago where

1116
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 4: nobody wanted to go talk about roadless areas to the

1117
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 4: chief of The Forest. Service it's Different. Now there's a

1118
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 4: lot of us out there who represent hunters and, anglers

1119
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 4: AND i just encourage everyone who listens to this, show

1120
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 4: whether you support those organizations or, not figure out how

1121
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 4: to get your voice. Heard because our elected leaders and

1122
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 4: the people that we put in place to manage our

1123
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 4: lands for, us they will listen to.

1124
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 3: Us so the THING i want to wrap up with

1125
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 3: is revisiting something you described briefly a moment, ago and

1126
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 3: then you started to allude to something right. There But

1127
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 3: i'd like to better understand in detail what does the

1128
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 3: process look like now moving forward in the coming months

1129
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 3: as the administration tries to proceed with this, rollback this

1130
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 3: recision of the roleless. Rule so what are the actual

1131
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 3: steps that are going to a curve that the administration

1132
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 3: needs to? Do and then where are the most impactful

1133
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 3: moments for us as individuals and, Organizations like when do

1134
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 3: our voices really make out of the most and how

1135
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 3: are we as effective as possible of communicating. That so so,

1136
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 3: basically this is a long wind of way of, saying

1137
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 3: how do we most efficiently and effectively make a difference

1138
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 3: on this?

1139
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 4: One so there's two. Answers, more there's the public, process,

1140
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 4: right AND i am still a dwed who believes in

1141
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:26,440
Speaker 4: the public. Process and it's not just BECAUSE i actually

1142
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 4: split my glasses yesterday playing catch with my, son but

1143
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 4: don't use your face to catch good. Tip, Yeah so

1144
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 4: there's the public. Process and so there, there If i'm

1145
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 4: guessing AND i don't know this for a, fact they

1146
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 4: have to come out with a public they'll basically come

1147
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 4: out with a public comment. Period so they'll they'll they'll, say,

1148
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 4: hey here's our. Idea you, know we want to rescind

1149
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 4: the roadless. Rule here's what it. Means and there'll be

1150
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 4: a public comment period on that, idea and that'll be

1151
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 4: one opportunity for us to. Engage and then they'll they'll

1152
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 4: take that back and they'll go into the basement and

1153
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 4: they'll build their bomb and they'll, Say, okay here's our draft.

1154
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 4: Idea what do you think of our? Idea and that'll

1155
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 4: be another opportunity to. COMMENT i think the ability to,

1156
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 4: overwhelm overwhelm these agencies with comments from constituents like hunters

1157
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 4: and anglers is really really important in this public process.

1158
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 4: Period and then they'll come out with a final and

1159
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 4: there may or may not be comments on. That and

1160
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 4: then what's happened in the intervening twenty four years that

1161
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 4: a lot of people are forgetting about is all these

1162
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 4: national forests have amended their forest plans and so if

1163
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 4: there's a rule, change like there's overriding roadless rule gets taken,

1164
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 4: away these individual forests will still have to amend their

1165
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 4: plans to allow for entry into these back country areas

1166
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:51,280
Speaker 4: because they don't allow, it and these forest supervisors aren't.

1167
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 4: Fools there's going to be VERY i think there'll be

1168
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 4: some who are politically motivated to do it to curry,

1169
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 4: favor but most are going to, say, MAN i don't

1170
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 4: want to get involved in that hot. Mess but that's

1171
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 4: the public. Process and then there's the process that affects

1172
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 4: the public, process and that's the one THAT i think

1173
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 4: is frankly more. Important and so there's been a lot

1174
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 4: of reports about how people like you, know my Friends

1175
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 4: Senator rish And Senator crapo From, idaho they came out

1176
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 4: opposed to this public land sale, provision and The montana

1177
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 4: Delegation shi And, dames again good, people good, friends said

1178
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 4: that they were, opposed and that was. Great what wasn't

1179
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 4: was that they were so that if you Recall senator

1180
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 4: she he was proposing to introduce an amendment that would

1181
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 4: strip out the provision that would allow for this not

1182
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 4: allowed mandate the sale of two to three point three

1183
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 4: million acres of for service AND blm. Land that was

1184
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 4: adjusted later on and. Change but we had sixteen Other

1185
01:04:54,160 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 4: republican senators lined up to oppose to support The shihi,

1186
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 4: amendment sixteen. OTHERS i meant we had twenty. Total think about,

1187
01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 4: that there's you, know there's almost fifty to fifty in The,

1188
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 4: senate and there's only one reason for. That it is

1189
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 4: because hunters and anglers From, indiana From, ohio From New,

1190
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 4: mexico From, arizona From New, York New, jersey all. Over

1191
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 4: they basically inundated the offices of their members Of congress and,

1192
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 4: said this is a stupid. Idea we will not support.

1193
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 4: This we won't support you if you support. It in,

1194
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,320
Speaker 4: fact we want you to tell us you won't Support

1195
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 4: and that's what. Happened that's why they withdrew. It it would

1196
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 4: have been a devastatingly embarrassing vote for the proponent of that.

1197
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 4: Idea if they had actually let it go to the,

1198
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:54,360
Speaker 4: floor it would lost overwhelm. Me and it was because

1199
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 4: the right hunters and anglers called the right senators and

1200
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 4: put the right bug in their. Ear and that's the.

1201
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:05,439
Speaker 4: Process that's outside the, process and that's where mcmeeat eater

1202
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 4: can be so helpful by getting you, know hunters and

1203
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 4: anglers who may not be you, know fast talking white

1204
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 4: guys like me whose job it is to do this

1205
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 4: stuff on a daily, basis but they may maybe they've

1206
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:22,920
Speaker 4: guided you, know a senator or a cabinet, member or you,

1207
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 4: know a member of the president's, family and and you,

1208
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:30,200
Speaker 4: know the more we can enlist those people as. Advocates

1209
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 4: so that's again it's outside the regular process THAT i,

1210
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 4: described but often that outside the regular process process is

1211
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 4: far more. Important but both are important. Here we need

1212
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 4: to have the ground swell of support so we can

1213
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 4: go to the people who don't typically engage in the

1214
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:50,080
Speaker 4: process and, say, dude you're on good ground.

1215
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 3: Here.

1216
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 4: Man ninety five percent of hunters and anglers want to

1217
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 4: keep these places. Intact you're, okay this isn't some democratic camel's,

1218
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 4: no who was under the, Tent this isn't some liberal.

1219
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 4: Agenda this is about the most conservative thing we can.

1220
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 4: Do we can keep or hold these backcountry areas in

1221
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 4: a safe.

1222
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 3: State and SO i want to make SURE i understand

1223
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 3: how so if we were to be contacting our elected,

1224
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 3: officials even though this is not something that's being determined by,

1225
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 3: legislatives yeah means, right.

1226
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:25,720
Speaker 4: The White house will listen to. That so The White

1227
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 4: house will listen to. Them so it's you, know contact

1228
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 4: your members Of, congress be They democrats Or, republicans you,

1229
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 4: know contract contact the administration through the regular formal. Process

1230
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 4: but then many of us know people who either work

1231
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 4: in the, administration they're either cabinet, members or they're associated

1232
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:46,120
Speaker 4: with cabinet, members or they're associated with the. Family and

1233
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 4: the more we can engage, THOUGH i, mean, LOOK i you,

1234
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 4: know try to unlimit. It as a huge advocate for

1235
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 4: Protecting Bristol, bay And President trump played a ginormous role

1236
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 4: in that back in twenty twenty by denying the key

1237
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 4: permit to the proponent of that.

1238
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 2: Mind and it was a huge.

1239
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 4: Win and, thanks thank You President trump for making this.

1240
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 4: POSSIBLE i don't know that that, happens but for the

1241
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,479
Speaker 4: fact that his sons had fished up In Bristol bay

1242
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 4: and had publicly said they thought it should be. Protected

1243
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:21,960
Speaker 4: and so that's WHAT i mean by we had done

1244
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:24,639
Speaker 4: a great, job to you of getting hundreds of thousands

1245
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:27,720
Speaker 4: that fishing and hunting community MEET eat or everybody came

1246
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 4: together on that ONE sims or, everybody all the outdoor,

1247
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:35,240
Speaker 4: brands everybody was. Great it wasn't as valuable as one tweet.

1248
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:36,559
Speaker 2: From Donald trump J Donald Trump.

1249
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:40,200
Speaker 3: Junior, yeah thank, Goodness so thank goodness for The Queenjack, river,

1250
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:41,800
Speaker 3: right that's, right The.

1251
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 4: Queenjack, yeah my favorite. River IF i were to die

1252
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:47,160
Speaker 4: tomorrow and The lord said you can fish on one more,

1253
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 4: river it would be a fish the braids on the.

1254
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:50,559
Speaker 2: Beach to fish the Last.

1255
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:55,000
Speaker 4: Fall isn't that place? Special it really? Is CAN i

1256
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 4: tell you a quick fish?

1257
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 2: STORE i love to love to hear.

1258
01:08:57,080 --> 01:09:00,040
Speaker 4: It, so SO i was on The Queen. JACK i

1259
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:01,720
Speaker 4: had to leave a. Day so you, know as you

1260
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:03,719
Speaker 4: know where you at Of Alaska Sportsans.

1261
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 3: Lot, NO i was with With Nancy Lyons nancy and

1262
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:23,240
Speaker 3: not With. BRIAN i was up by the lakesh.

1263
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 4: But Hodgins, place No Crystal.

1264
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 3: Creek this is so embarrassing and they're gonna be so

1265
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 3: mad at me That i'm forgetting.

1266
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:24,840
Speaker 4: This, well let's just cut this part.

1267
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 2: Out, SORRY i met With. Brian edit.

1268
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 4: It but but you KNOW I i was in front

1269
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:33,599
Speaker 4: of The alaska Sportsmans, lot which is on The Queen,

1270
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 4: jack AND i KNEW i had to. LEAVE i had

1271
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,439
Speaker 4: to actually go To New York city of all, places

1272
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 4: to meet with THE ceo Of tiffany And company to

1273
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:42,559
Speaker 4: get him to help come out against the public, mind

1274
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 4: which he did, Anyway So i'm standing there and we were.

1275
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 4: Drifting it's really cool for your. Listeners you. Know the

1276
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:53,640
Speaker 4: what happens is there's there's this lake Called, iliamna and

1277
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:57,559
Speaker 4: these resident native rainbows live in the lake and they

1278
01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 4: they migrate into the. Rivers they followed the salmon and

1279
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 4: they eat their eggs and they eat the flesh of

1280
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 4: the decaying sand because there's so much. Protein and so we.

1281
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:09,680
Speaker 4: Swing you can swing, eggs but then you can you

1282
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:12,120
Speaker 4: can also swing with a so called flesh. Floes they're big,

1283
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:14,800
Speaker 4: streamers and so you you, know you cast it and

1284
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 4: then you let it swing, downstream and you, know sometimes

1285
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:20,000
Speaker 4: you'll give it a little. Action and, ANYWAY i was doing,

1286
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 4: that and he got all the way to the end

1287
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 4: of the, run AND i was just talking to you,

1288
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 4: know just kind of you, know jabber jocking with the

1289
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:31,599
Speaker 4: with the, guide AND i gave it a little strip

1290
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:33,320
Speaker 4: AND i was getting ready to strip more and to

1291
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 4: pick it up and cast, again AND i felt a

1292
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:39,640
Speaker 4: jerk AND i set, strip, set And i'm looking one

1293
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 4: hundred and eighty degrees downstream and over THERE i see

1294
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:46,840
Speaker 4: a fish come out of the. Water AND i looked

1295
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 4: at the guide AND i, said did you see that

1296
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 4: fish jump over, there and he looks at me and he, said, yeah,

1297
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:55,600
Speaker 4: man that's your. Fish so this fish was all the

1298
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:57,960
Speaker 4: way down there at the end of my line and

1299
01:10:58,000 --> 01:10:59,760
Speaker 4: it came out of the water all the way over.

1300
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,680
Speaker 4: THERE i. Know that's how incredibly strong these fish are

1301
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 4: because they're eating those eggs in that, flesh and it

1302
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:10,160
Speaker 4: was it was only a twenty five inch rainbow and

1303
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:13,000
Speaker 4: they get up over thirty inches there and to this,

1304
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:15,920
Speaker 4: day that remains the most memorable Fish i've Ever.

1305
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:16,320
Speaker 2: Yeah they.

1306
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:19,600
Speaker 3: Are they are unlike any rainbow Trout i've ever seen or,

1307
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 3: experience just like superhuman. Trout, yeah AND i remembered it's

1308
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:27,760
Speaker 3: last Cast. Lodge they're a little bit a smaller outfit up,

1309
01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:31,000
Speaker 3: there as With Dagan. Walton really good, people great folks

1310
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:34,160
Speaker 3: to help out with the with A Guide academy down

1311
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:35,600
Speaker 3: there and get a lot of.

1312
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 4: Fun the Guide academy is. Awesome, yeah they, get they.

1313
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:40,479
Speaker 4: Get they. Do help. Out nancy helps, Out bryan helps,

1314
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:43,679
Speaker 4: out our Trit unlimited staff help. Out we basically Get

1315
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 4: Alaska native villagers from The Bristol bay. Area we train

1316
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:48,720
Speaker 4: them to become guides so they can work at these.

1317
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:50,759
Speaker 2: Lodges such a great, program such a special.

1318
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 3: Place, yeah very thankful that we got the right people

1319
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 3: out there to experience it and and advocate for it

1320
01:11:56,960 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 3: to your.

1321
01:11:57,280 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 2: Point so so, YEAH i think that's that's a terrific.

1322
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:03,559
Speaker 3: Call to action for all of us to do whatever

1323
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:05,840
Speaker 3: it is that we, can whether that's calling our elected,

1324
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 3: officials or speaking to our friends and, family or bringing

1325
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:12,240
Speaker 3: someone else out to experience these places and, say, hey

1326
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:14,640
Speaker 3: this is one of those roadless AREAS.

1327
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 2: I can speak. TO i killed my first help on

1328
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 2: one of these roadless.

1329
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 3: Areas my kids have gone and done incredible backpacking trips

1330
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:26,799
Speaker 3: and hiking trips and had formative experiences in these roadless

1331
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 3: areas that would be dramatically different if they changed because of.

1332
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 2: This so we have a, say we have a.

1333
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 3: Voice we just saw with the public land sale how

1334
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 3: impactful our voices can be if we stand up together.

1335
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:45,920
Speaker 2: And really demand. Something so let's do it. Again let's

1336
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 2: do it.

1337
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 4: Again let's do it.

1338
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,200
Speaker 3: Again, Well, chris to wrap it, up could you just

1339
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 3: tell folks where they can learn more about what you

1340
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 3: guys are doing as an, Organization how can they get

1341
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 3: involved The Trout unlimited anything else like?

1342
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:02,000
Speaker 4: That, YEAH i mean you know tu dot org a.

1343
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 4: Www dot tu dot org will have a wealth of

1344
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 4: information up. There soon we'll have a whole section on roadless,

1345
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 4: areas because we want to get all this information out

1346
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:15,800
Speaker 4: about by state where these roadless lands are and how

1347
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 4: important they are for trout and, salmon and how much,

1348
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 4: activity how much treatment work has been allowed in those.

1349
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 4: Areas just you, know we want to be able to

1350
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:28,839
Speaker 4: counter some of these arguments that we're hearing with. Facts,

1351
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:33,679
Speaker 4: AGAIN i think there's a philosophical argument for getting away

1352
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:36,599
Speaker 4: from the roadless, rule BUT i think the substantive arguments

1353
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:38,400
Speaker 4: are on our. Side and so we want to make

1354
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:41,880
Speaker 4: sure that people who fish and, hunt to you, supporters

1355
01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:44,880
Speaker 4: to you, members they have access to good information to

1356
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 4: make their voices. Heard will be making sure that everybody

1357
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:53,080
Speaker 4: knows when you, know check out our social media to

1358
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:57,040
Speaker 4: understand when you can the best way to chime. In

1359
01:13:57,520 --> 01:14:00,120
Speaker 4: we've got you, know online, resources so you don't have

1360
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:02,040
Speaker 4: to write an original. Letter you can just go in

1361
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 4: there and put your name in your address and we'll

1362
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 4: take care of the hard part for. You but, again

1363
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:08,080
Speaker 4: just don't underestimate the power your.

1364
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:09,559
Speaker 2: Voice, yeah, yeah so.

1365
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:13,559
Speaker 3: True, Well, CHRIS i can't thank you enough for this chat,

1366
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:16,200
Speaker 3: today for all of your work you, know decades ago

1367
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:18,840
Speaker 3: to help put this into, place and now what you're

1368
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:23,400
Speaker 3: doing with tu tremendous, organization tremendous impact you have made

1369
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:26,320
Speaker 3: personally and. Organizationally so thank you for all, that and

1370
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:26,760
Speaker 3: thank you for.

1371
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:29,320
Speaker 4: Today Thanks, mark it's been a.

1372
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:34,760
Speaker 3: Pleasure and with that we will wrap this one. UP

1373
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:37,280
Speaker 3: i appreciate you joining, ME i appreciate you listening to

1374
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:39,720
Speaker 3: me And chris. TODAY i hope that you will leave

1375
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:42,639
Speaker 3: this conversation not only with the better understanding of how

1376
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:45,920
Speaker 3: we have these special protected, places but also what it's

1377
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 3: going to take for us to keep them.

1378
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:50,680
Speaker 2: AROUND i also will ask you to please.

1379
01:14:50,479 --> 01:14:56,040
Speaker 3: Join me in sending emails calling our elected officials taking

1380
01:14:56,080 --> 01:15:00,120
Speaker 3: action to protect these last best. Places they, truly we

1381
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:03,040
Speaker 3: are one of the most rare resources we have, left

1382
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 3: and if we don't stand up for, them certainly nobody else.

1383
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:09,120
Speaker 3: Will so thanks for joining, me thanks for being a

1384
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:12,000
Speaker 3: part of this conversation in this, community and thank you

1385
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 3: for Staying wired To hunt