Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.
Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.
Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.
Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Trust me.
Speaker 1: Trust Me.
Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person I've never lived to you never.
Speaker 2: Live if you think that one person has all the answers.
Speaker 1: Don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme
Speaker 1: belief and manipulation from two former cult members who've actually
Speaker 1: experienced it. I'm Megan Elizabeth Lola isn't here for the
Speaker 1: intro today, but she's part of this incredible interview, So
Speaker 1: let's jump into part two with former Heaven's Gate member
Speaker 1: Frank Lloyd. We'll discuss the growing number of red flags
Speaker 1: Frank began to notice after one of the leaders died,
Speaker 1: including talk of castration and what led to his decision
Speaker 1: to finally, after eighteen years, breakaway. Also, he shares the
Speaker 1: heartbreaking story of how he first heard about the mass
Speaker 1: suicide on the news. The Lessons he's learned as a
Speaker 1: result and what his life is like now. Our heart
Speaker 1: really goes out to anybody affected by the Los Angeles fires.
Speaker 1: So Lola and I are fine, We are safe, but yeah,
Speaker 1: just a lot of grief and stuff too move through.
Speaker 1: So thank you everybody who reached out. And without further ado,
Speaker 1: let's speak to Frank.
Speaker 2: So we left off last week with Frank telling us
Speaker 2: about how he had been in the group for a
Speaker 2: long time at this point and Tea one of the
Speaker 2: two leaders. It was Tea and Doe, and Tea was
Speaker 2: the woman and Doe was the man who you've probably
Speaker 2: seen in the videos that they made. Tea died of
Speaker 2: cancer and this was totally against their plans. They were
Speaker 2: going to be taken up into space while they were
Speaker 2: still alive. So things started really changing with Doe. He
Speaker 2: started getting more controlling, he started getting more obsessive, and
Speaker 2: basically he started talking about suicide. So that's where we
Speaker 2: left off last week, and we'll catch up with him
Speaker 2: now he's passing.
Speaker 3: In that way had a huge impact on doees thinking
Speaker 3: about how the graduation would occur, and that worked on
Speaker 3: him over the coming months and years to the point
Speaker 3: where he began to entertain ideas of how we might
Speaker 3: do our vehicles in which was entirely diametrically posed to
Speaker 3: the way it was originally presented.
Speaker 2: How was it originally presented?
Speaker 3: We will be taken up in a craft while we're conscious,
Speaker 3: we will ascend while conscious and alive.
Speaker 2: But now t has died, so there must he's got
Speaker 2: to find a way to reshape the narrative.
Speaker 3: Right, And as Sawyer mentioned, he talked about how he
Speaker 3: came across a book about how to take one's life
Speaker 3: and he was shocked. Yeah, he found it cleaning up
Speaker 3: those quarters one time, and that queued him into the
Speaker 3: fact that Doe was considering how we might leave by
Speaker 3: taking your lives. That happened shortly after Tea passed on.
Speaker 2: What did you think about that?
Speaker 3: It was a huge red flag for me, but I
Speaker 3: suppressed it. I couldn't bring it up. I couldn't talk
Speaker 3: to anybody about it because it would have been at
Speaker 3: least I thought it would have been seen as doubting
Speaker 3: my older member. But there were other red legs like that.
Speaker 3: I mean one thing. In April of nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 3: a branch Davidiant caught fire in Waco, Texas, and that
Speaker 3: made a huge impression on Dough. That got him thinking
Speaker 3: about how maybe we should learn to fire firearms and
Speaker 3: that would stimulate our own demise. And you know, that
Speaker 3: was a huge red leg for me, like, oh yeah,
Speaker 3: like that's gonna work really well, isn't it.
Speaker 2: As In, like, if you had guns, a standoff with
Speaker 2: the police would happen and they would kill you, right right.
Speaker 3: But not necessarily a standoff. Simply the fact that we
Speaker 3: had guns would cause an altercation that would end up
Speaker 3: taking our lives. But I think they decided that would
Speaker 3: be too messy. This was after I left. They decided
Speaker 3: not to do that. But Waco happened in April of
Speaker 3: ninety three and I left in August.
Speaker 2: What can you talk to us about the time when
Speaker 2: you and Erica both go back to Calgary and visit
Speaker 2: your families.
Speaker 3: I think that's after Tea's passing, probably like around September
Speaker 3: eighty five, since both their families were in Calgary, Dough
Speaker 3: decided we could be each other's check partners.
Speaker 2: Why were you allowed to go home?
Speaker 3: This was the second visit I believe, back to visit
Speaker 3: our families, And the reason that that came up was
Speaker 3: because a mother of one of the members had been
Speaker 3: in com Intact had somehow been making contacts with different
Speaker 3: X members and gathering information about us, you know, trying
Speaker 3: to locate her son. She was also making contact with
Speaker 3: other members who are still in the group their families.
Speaker 3: She started putting out a newsletter every month or two Goodness,
Speaker 3: and they would all receive news and updates through this network.
Speaker 3: My parents were in the network, and Erica's parents were
Speaker 3: in the network. So the visits to families were designed
Speaker 3: to allay our family's fears about what we were doing,
Speaker 3: that we weren't in danger, and you know, we weren't
Speaker 3: up to no good and we were healthy and happy,
Speaker 3: and that was what it was designed to do. So
Speaker 3: one visit was before Tea passed on, and the other
Speaker 3: visit was afterwards. So we were going to travel together.
Speaker 3: Traveled back to Calgary and we had a layover in
Speaker 3: Salt Lake City, so we were sitting in the secluded
Speaker 3: area of the airport. There was not much activity, and
Speaker 3: I felt this overwhelming feeling of love for Erica that
Speaker 3: I hadn't allowed myself to feel even though we lived
Speaker 3: in the same house. I would always suppress bit in
Speaker 3: the routines of everyday life. Plus being surrounded by other
Speaker 3: group members, of their class members, was like any feeling
Speaker 3: like that got drowned out amongst the vibrational, energetic chatter
Speaker 3: of our everyday life. So being alone with her, none
Speaker 3: of those intervening influences had a chance to suppress that.
Speaker 3: So I reached over and I gave her a hug.
Speaker 3: And I think they may have misquoted me or something.
Speaker 3: I've done several documentaries. But what happened was she quickly
Speaker 3: said as I hugged her that she had asked though
Speaker 3: if she could hug me, and he had said yes.
Speaker 3: I never had the foresight to ask hug her, and
Speaker 3: I never thought that I would never considered it. But
Speaker 3: I mean that to me illustrates the level of conditioning
Speaker 3: of the group that Erica would have the foresight to
Speaker 3: ask if it was okay to give me.
Speaker 2: A hug, just to have a hug. Yeah. Wow, What
Speaker 2: did it feel like that hug?
Speaker 3: Well, it was it was like the flood of everything
Speaker 3: that I had suppressed towards her came rushing up and
Speaker 3: it was intense. This was in my mind, but I
Speaker 3: didn't have the courage to express it. But if she
Speaker 3: had said to me, let's stop doing this, less runaway,
Speaker 3: let's not do this anymore, I would have said, definitely, yes,
Speaker 3: I agree, Les, let's quit it. It's silly. But I
Speaker 3: was of two minds. I had the conditioning of the group,
Speaker 3: so did she, So I didn't let myself express that.
Speaker 3: I didn't think she would be amenable to it anyway.
Speaker 3: She probably wouldn't have been.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what a moment. Yeah, gosh, that's still in the eighties, right.
Speaker 3: I think this was eighty five eight.
Speaker 2: More years you were in You told a story in
Speaker 2: the documentary of insulting your masculinity that have been.
Speaker 3: Shortly after Tea passed on. The goal was always to
Speaker 3: let go of our masculinity, let go of our femininity,
Speaker 3: to be in the middle, to be androgynous, because members
Speaker 3: of the kingdom level of human are androgenous. They have
Speaker 3: no sexuality, they have no mammalian behavior. So this particular
Speaker 3: morning we were meeting in the morning, I was at
Speaker 3: the front. Everyone was seated in semicircles around him, and
Speaker 3: I raised my hand to ask a question or maybe
Speaker 3: to in our reservation. I don't remember what it was,
Speaker 3: but I spoke up, and it was shortly after we
Speaker 3: had gotten up, so my voice was a little bit husky,
Speaker 3: It had a morning huskiness to it. And those response
Speaker 3: was not to reply to me, but to mimic my
Speaker 3: voice in a what's the word like mocking or well
Speaker 3: I was mocking, but in a way to emphasize the
Speaker 3: deepness of the voice to convey a point to me.
Speaker 3: And my response was to feel extremely humiliated, yeah, and
Speaker 3: feel this smoldering resentment and anger within me that I
Speaker 3: couldn't express because to do so it would have been
Speaker 3: to question him, to disrespect him as our teacher, as
Speaker 3: our leader. So I had this tremendous internal conflict going
Speaker 3: on that I couldn't express in any way. You know,
Speaker 3: if I were to have had a free feeling, like
Speaker 3: I could have free expression of what I was feeling
Speaker 3: and thinking, I would have. Oh, I would have used
Speaker 3: some explicits. Probably how the f dare you put me down?
Speaker 3: And this way? You know, you say you're a leader,
Speaker 3: you put yourself up there from the class as a teacher,
Speaker 3: as somebody having wisdom that you're trying to impart to us,
Speaker 3: and yet you do this behavior of mocking and putting down.
Speaker 3: But I couldn't. I couldn't say that, so I stuffed
Speaker 3: that emotion. My understanding of that now is that when
Speaker 3: we suppress our emotion, when we stuff away emotion that's unprocessed,
Speaker 3: it ends up residing energetically in our bodies. It resides
Speaker 3: energetically in our cellular structure and in our oric field,
Speaker 3: and it can eventually turn into disease if we don't
Speaker 3: allow it to express and we don't allow ourselves to
Speaker 3: process it anyway. That's a tangent. But over the course
Speaker 3: of the next few weeks, I gradually developed a stutter
Speaker 3: and inability to really speak clearly and fluently. Was as
Speaker 3: if this energetic suppression was itself being expressed as the
Speaker 3: inability to express my own thoughts freely. And I still
Speaker 3: have the residual of that. I haven't freed myself from
Speaker 3: it completely, much better than I have been. But that's
Speaker 3: another illustration of the dynamic of cult leader over cult member.
Speaker 3: Wow to me, looking back, the result of Tea's passing
Speaker 3: had a detrimental effect on Dough. He became more controlling,
Speaker 3: He became more ocd, probably out of insecurity of being
Speaker 3: left with guiding the class on his own regardless, That's
Speaker 3: what I saw, what I experienced. The episode of him
Speaker 3: making fun of my voice to me was an example
Speaker 3: of that stepping back for a second looking at it
Speaker 3: as a life coach, because I'm a life coach right now,
Speaker 3: and as a life coach without compassion, it would be
Speaker 3: a terrible life coach. Without empathy, I would be a
Speaker 3: terrible life coach. Without active intuition, it would be a
Speaker 3: terrible life coach. And to me, in the exchange that
Speaker 3: we had that day with Oh, he lacked intuitive awareness,
Speaker 3: he lacked empathy, he lacked compassion.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about the final straw?
Speaker 3: Well, I mentioned there were some red legs coming up
Speaker 3: along the way toward the end was the idea of
Speaker 3: learning to fire firearms. There's another one as well. They
Speaker 3: were first beginning to talk about in nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 3: and that was the idea of getting castrated. The men
Speaker 3: getting castrated right because of the sexual impulses that they
Speaker 3: wanted to lessen. They thought that would help. And that
Speaker 3: was a red flag to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, were you still in the group when they began
Speaker 2: or no?
Speaker 3: Well, apparently I was, but I didn't know because they
Speaker 3: didn't tell us that was when the first.
Speaker 1: One took place, and that was there was only one correct.
Speaker 3: No, there was one, and then ultimately I think there
Speaker 3: were six or seven. Wow, man who had castrations.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: There was one guy who went first, what was his name,
Speaker 1: cerroty Previdy.
Speaker 2: That was really sad. I know, it broke my heart,
Speaker 2: and then the other people following, and actually Doe was
Speaker 2: also frustrated, right correct, Yeah, wow, so so heartbreaking. You're
Speaker 2: like every little piece of identity is just stripped away
Speaker 2: from all of you, just every single possible thing right
Speaker 2: down to your sex. I mean, gosh, it's a miracle
Speaker 2: that you were able to break away.
Speaker 3: That last year that I was in the group I worked.
Speaker 3: I mentioned I worked for Microsoft, and that got me
Speaker 3: interested in software. I started out as a receptionist, but
Speaker 3: I learned to use Microsoft Excel. That was their brand
Speaker 3: new spreadsheet program that Microsoft came out with. So I
Speaker 3: worked for Microsoft for two years in the Dallas sales office.
Speaker 3: My boss, who is the regional sales manager for the
Speaker 3: Southern Region, was being promoted to national sales manager for Microsoft,
Speaker 3: and he had asked me to go with him as
Speaker 3: his assistant. Of course, I couldn't. I was in the.
Speaker 1: Culton that I'll do it.
Speaker 3: But here's the thing. If I had gone, they were
Speaker 3: offering stock options at that point, so I would have
Speaker 3: been a millionaire.
Speaker 2: Oh Frank, don't break my heart. Oh my god.
Speaker 3: So anyway back to the year before I left. The
Speaker 3: year before that year, I worked for this fellow in
Speaker 3: Phoenix who was this software business owner, and he hired
Speaker 3: me to kind of help get his head above water,
Speaker 3: I found out later because he was drowning. His customers
Speaker 3: were not pleased, so he wanted to hire me to
Speaker 3: help get things back on track with his customers. He
Speaker 3: was a terrible, terrible customer service. So I worked for
Speaker 3: him for a year until I had enough and it
Speaker 3: was time for me to get ato the job. Doe said, yeah,
Speaker 3: go ahead, good, done the job. So I did. I
Speaker 3: got another job with one of his competitors, that fellow
Speaker 3: who's terrible customer service. I got a job with the
Speaker 3: woman who was also in the same business and had
Speaker 3: been getting a lot of his customers, and now she
Speaker 3: got one of his developers. She was a really good
Speaker 3: boss to work for. So think of this juxtaposition. Now
Speaker 3: I work for this woman, I was her first full
Speaker 3: time employee. She treated me really, really well. We designed
Speaker 3: software together. She gave me full rein on how I
Speaker 3: wrote the software. When we had happy customers, which was
Speaker 3: virtually all the time, she gave me full credit for
Speaker 3: those happy customers. So I was treated really well. And
Speaker 3: you know, my creative uses could flow in this software business,
Speaker 3: whereas going back to the class at night on the weekends,
Speaker 3: there's no uniqueness, no creativity allowed. You totally line you
Speaker 3: follow procedures. You know, Doe's view of perfection was the
Speaker 3: Star Trek civilization known as the Borg. I know, if
Speaker 3: you watched Star Trek, you will be assimilated and resistance
Speaker 3: is feudal and you're part of the machine and you're
Speaker 3: a cog in the wheel. So working for this woman
Speaker 3: made life bearable, right even though I suppressed the fact
Speaker 3: that it wasn't bearable, The fact that I needed that,
Speaker 3: you know, the fact that that made it bearable should
Speaker 3: have been a blaring message to me, but it wasn't.
Speaker 3: So then at the end of August it was time
Speaker 3: to move again. We would move every year or two,
Speaker 3: so we were moving to San Diego. So I thought, okay,
Speaker 3: no big deal. I've quit my job plenty of times before.
Speaker 3: We just go to the new place and get a
Speaker 3: new job, no big deal. On the drive between Phoenix
Speaker 3: San Diego, I started having this feeling in the pit
Speaker 3: of my stomach. I just can't be here anymore. I
Speaker 3: didn't intellectually understand that it was just this gnawing feeling
Speaker 3: that I couldn't ignore, you know. So I had a
Speaker 3: check partner with me in the car, and I talked
Speaker 3: to her about this, and she suggested that I speak
Speaker 3: with Doe when we got to San Diego. So I did,
Speaker 3: and he said, okay, we I'll sleep on it and
Speaker 3: I'll talk to you in the morning. I slept on
Speaker 3: it still felt the same way in the morning, and
Speaker 3: then he said, okay, well, let's have an eating A
Speaker 3: little while later, they called me upstairs to Doe's quarters
Speaker 3: and there were four other classmates there with Doe. Four
Speaker 3: of his trusted helpers, of which Sawyer was one. Sir Odie,
Speaker 3: who had the first castration, was in and then Live
Speaker 3: Odie and Jane Odi, who were the two who helped
Speaker 3: Doe with tea before she passed on, and they were
Speaker 3: there kind of as a buffer like I was at
Speaker 3: one end of a work table, and I was at
Speaker 3: the other and the other four were on the long
Speaker 3: end as a buffer between Doe and me. It was
Speaker 3: kind of like an intervention to talk some sense into me.
Speaker 3: He took a couple of different approaches. First, he said, well,
Speaker 3: you haven't done anything to make me displeased with your
Speaker 3: behavior or anything. You're a good student. There's no reason
Speaker 3: for you to leave. And I just kept turning to
Speaker 3: this gut knowing I couldn't ignore, or I knew I
Speaker 3: had to follow it no matter where it took me
Speaker 3: at and even the gut knowing went against my mental
Speaker 3: conditioning h but I had no choice but to follow this.
Speaker 3: So Dough changed his approach a little bit, bringing up
Speaker 3: the thought that, well, you know that the world will
Speaker 3: be plowed under when we leave, and you know you
Speaker 3: will lose your life along with all of the others
Speaker 3: as the civilization is plowed under. They thought of the
Speaker 3: earth as a garden for souls, and periodically the garden
Speaker 3: gets plowed under with each new season. So that was
Speaker 3: the analogy. And because this crop of souls had resulted
Speaker 3: in so few coming into this classroom circumstance with ten
Speaker 3: do the crop was bad. So that meant the crop
Speaker 3: had to be plowed under. The civilization had to be
Speaker 3: plowed under through earth changes like earthquakes or the switch
Speaker 3: of the Earth's sacks, this resulting in huge earth changes.
Speaker 3: That's what they thought. And it didn't matter to me
Speaker 3: what he said, whatever he said, I just kept returning
Speaker 3: to this gut knowing said up, sorry, no matter where
Speaker 3: this leads me, even though I'm plowed under whatever, I
Speaker 3: have to follow this gut knowing. So he said, okay, well,
Speaker 3: we'll get you a double bag packed up, and we'll
Speaker 3: give you one thousand bucks, and you can get a
Speaker 3: bus ticket or a plane ticket wherever you want to go,
Speaker 3: and we'll take you. And that'll be that. It's not
Speaker 3: like they wanted me there against my will, because that
Speaker 3: would have been disruptive to everyone else's focus.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's actually very surprising. I feel like generally the
Speaker 2: stories are, you know, kind of trying to bully people
Speaker 2: into staying right. In nineteen ninety seven, the remaining members
Speaker 2: of Heaven's Gate have their exit planned. They believe that
Speaker 2: there's a flying saucer hiding behind the Hailbop comet, and
Speaker 2: they believe they're going to teleport to it. So thirty
Speaker 2: nine people commit suicide together and Rancho Santa Fe, California
Speaker 2: by taking apple sauce or putting the lace with the
Speaker 2: deadly drug. And it's, you know, just such a tragedy.
Speaker 2: How did you find out and how did you feel?
Speaker 3: Well? I was living in white Rock, British Columbia, which
Speaker 3: is right by the border, and I was working in Bellingham, Washington,
Speaker 3: So I lived in Canada, worked in the US, and
Speaker 3: I was coming home from work at night and I
Speaker 3: heard a radio report on the news as I was
Speaker 3: driving home. It said that a group of all male
Speaker 3: monks had been found in San Diego to have committed suicide.
Speaker 3: You know, it was a breaking story at that point,
Speaker 3: and I knew it was. Chills ran up and down
Speaker 3: my spy and I knew it was then. And then
Speaker 3: the story developed over the next few days and came
Speaker 3: out that day. The police thought that they were all
Speaker 3: male because they all have the same haircut. I appeared
Speaker 3: on the Larry King Live TV program news program. This
Speaker 3: was April first, so it was my April for Fools joke.
Speaker 3: I was on, Sawyer was on, and another fellow who
Speaker 3: was an ex member who had left before I had left.
Speaker 3: Was also on all three of us were ex members.
Speaker 3: They flew me from Bellingham to Seattle for the satellite uplink,
Speaker 3: so there was a clip in the HBO documentary of
Speaker 3: me with the long hair, and that was from Larry
Speaker 3: King Live. So from that the local newspapers started calling me.
Speaker 3: My phone didn't stop ringing. I didn't want to give
Speaker 3: any local interviews. I was heartbroken, and yet even at
Speaker 3: that point, after having been out of the group for
Speaker 3: three and a half years, I felt like they had
Speaker 3: the right to live their life as they wanted, and
Speaker 3: they had the right to take their lives as they
Speaker 3: saw a fit. I wrote a letter to all of
Speaker 3: my coworkers in the company where I worked because they
Speaker 3: I was aware several people had seen the Larry King
Speaker 3: Live episode, so I wanted to stem the tide of
Speaker 3: the rumor mill and just let people know what was
Speaker 3: going on it. I lost many, many friends who I
Speaker 3: shared a great deal with, not just my cousin, not
Speaker 3: just my ex girlfriend. That I was heartbroken, I can imagine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and your last conversation with Erica was when you.
Speaker 3: Were leaving, right It was two days after I left,
Speaker 3: So she had called me at my parents. I was
Speaker 3: staying with my parents in Calgary because that's where I
Speaker 3: went when I left the group. And you know, I
Speaker 3: knew she would have had somebody else on the line,
Speaker 3: a check partner on the other extension while she was
Speaker 3: talking to me. But she implored me to come back
Speaker 3: to the group, repeating some of the things that Doe
Speaker 3: had said of you know, there's no reason for you
Speaker 3: to be out there. You belong here. I have no
Speaker 3: way of knowing whether or not Erica had suggested to
Speaker 3: Doe that she called me, or if Doe had suggested
Speaker 3: to Erica that she called me, But through much of
Speaker 3: that conversation, Erica was weeping. She was emotionally upset that
Speaker 3: I had left. And because Erica wasn't in San Diego
Speaker 3: when I left, we drove to San Diego in three shifts,
Speaker 3: and eric was back in Phoenix cleaning the house and
Speaker 3: getting it ready to relinquish to the renters. So I
Speaker 3: left without saying goodbye to her. I'm sure that was
Speaker 3: tough for her. But one thing I said to her
Speaker 3: was I need to stay out here for a while.
Speaker 3: I need to follow this gut knowing, and I feel
Speaker 3: like it would be really helpful if you spent time
Speaker 3: outside the colt as well. I didn't call it a
Speaker 3: call outside the group. She didn't say anything, and I
Speaker 3: don't know if she would have wanted to say anything,
Speaker 3: but she would have known that that would have been
Speaker 3: heard by the person on the other line, right. But
Speaker 3: the conversation lasted about three minutes and that was it.
Speaker 3: We said goodbye. Wow. That was the last time I
Speaker 3: spoke with her. Wow.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm just so sorry that you lost so many
Speaker 2: people that you love. Must have been really hard.
Speaker 3: Can we talk about that? Yeah? I want to talk
Speaker 3: about it on two different levels, yes, please. One is
Speaker 3: it's the level of heartbreak, you know, the human experience
Speaker 3: of loss. I experienced that in a real way, and
Speaker 3: I didn't expect now to get emotional about it, but
Speaker 3: obviously it still impacts me. But the other thing that
Speaker 3: I realize is, and I'm not expecting others to buy
Speaker 3: into this, but my view of life is that we
Speaker 3: do live succeeding lives. Reincarnation is a real thing. In
Speaker 3: between incarnations. There's what's called this pre birth planning, in
Speaker 3: which I and my sole group map out what I
Speaker 3: want to experience in my life and who will play
Speaker 3: different parts in that lifetime and what part I will
Speaker 3: play in my lifetime in others lives. There's a working
Speaker 3: together to determine how we will experience the lessons we
Speaker 3: want to learn at the sole level during that life.
Speaker 3: So with that as background, if that is a real thing,
Speaker 3: if that pre birth planning is a real thing, I
Speaker 3: and every member of the Heaven's Gate Cult planned their
Speaker 3: participation in the cult, including the option to leave or
Speaker 3: to stay to the end and take their lives in suicide,
Speaker 3: because of the lessons that they wanted to learn, and
Speaker 3: it extends even to their family members experiencing the loss
Speaker 3: of them the lessons they wanted to learn at the
Speaker 3: soul level through that loss.
Speaker 2: What do you think your lesson was?
Speaker 3: One of my biggest lessons through all of this is
Speaker 3: to trust my inner knowing above everything else. Follow that
Speaker 3: knowing no matter what anything outside is telling me, in
Speaker 3: the face of any onslaught of conditioning or peer pressure
Speaker 3: or societal norms, follow what I know. It's like the
Speaker 3: God connection within me. It's not my mind, it's my
Speaker 3: heart and my gut knowing. You know that our heart
Speaker 3: has a much larger energy field than our brain, and
Speaker 3: our heart has lures the heart poetically time after their
Speaker 3: poems that talk about the knowing of the heart, and
Speaker 3: it's true, the heart has tremendous knowledge. Their hearts are
Speaker 3: connected to every other heart. That's how we are all
Speaker 3: one us through our heart.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that that's a beautiful lesson me too.
Speaker 1: Who what a story?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, how are you doing? Now? How's your life?
Speaker 3: Well? My life is perfectly imperfect. I started van life
Speaker 3: in August of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2: Do you live in the van? Are you traveling around?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: What's your setup like?
Speaker 3: Well, it's not a big van, but it's got everything
Speaker 3: I need. I have a seven gallon freshwater tank and
Speaker 3: a seven gallon greywater tank and a submersible pump, so
Speaker 3: I have running water, running cold water. My mother's gift
Speaker 3: to me through her passing in twenty eighteen. What's this van?
Speaker 3: Through her inheritance, I could buy this ban So, thank
Speaker 3: you mother.
Speaker 2: So now you get to be adventurous and do whatever
Speaker 2: you want and follow your heart exactly. That's awesome. Well, man,
Speaker 2: I can't thank you enough for talking to us. This
Speaker 2: has been really just wonderful.
Speaker 1: Tuly, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Is there anything you'd like to say or mention or
Speaker 2: shout out.
Speaker 3: Well, I have mentioned to many people that I was
Speaker 3: writing a book. I started the book in twenty fifteen,
Speaker 3: and the book has kind of languished over the last
Speaker 3: several months.
Speaker 2: Well, we're all languishing over the last several months, let's
Speaker 2: be honest.
Speaker 3: But I would like to get it out and get
Speaker 3: it published. I have a publisher that I really like
Speaker 3: lined up. I just need to get it done. It's
Speaker 3: about halfway done. I'm a little bit overwhelmed by it.
Speaker 2: Writing is a challenge. I really feel you there by day,
Speaker 2: bird by bird?
Speaker 1: What's that a Lamont book? Bird by bird?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: Just sentenced by sentence?
Speaker 2: Yeah, just as much as you can handle every day.
Speaker 2: But I have faith in you, and I absolutely want
Speaker 2: to buy your book, So you have to finish it.
Speaker 1: Amen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got to get it at the door and
Speaker 3: my purpose he agrees. I just need to get the
Speaker 3: freaking thing out of the door.
Speaker 2: So that's how I feel about my script. Awesome. Well,
Speaker 2: do you have any social media?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm on Facebook. You can just search for my
Speaker 3: name Frank leiferd Lyford. I'm on Instagram. I have a website.
Speaker 3: It's called Facilitating You LETTERU dot com.
Speaker 2: Well, thanks again so much, Frank, you welcome.
Speaker 3: I've enjoyed talking to you both.
Speaker 1: I really will never get over the openness and vulnerability
Speaker 1: with which Frank is able to speak about the story
Speaker 1: that happened to him. So once again, thank you to
Speaker 1: Frank for being our guest. Everybody in Los Angeles, stay
Speaker 1: safe out there. Our hearts are with you and we
Speaker 1: will see you well here next week. Remember to follow
Speaker 1: your gut look out for red flags. I never ever
Speaker 1: trust by.
Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
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