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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me.

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Speaker 1: Trust Me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person I've never lived to you never.

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Speaker 2: Live if you think that one person has all the answers.

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Speaker 1: Don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and manipulation from two former cult members who've actually

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Speaker 1: experienced it. I'm Megan Elizabeth Lola isn't here for the

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Speaker 1: intro today, but she's part of this incredible interview, So

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Speaker 1: let's jump into part two with former Heaven's Gate member

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Speaker 1: Frank Lloyd. We'll discuss the growing number of red flags

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Speaker 1: Frank began to notice after one of the leaders died,

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Speaker 1: including talk of castration and what led to his decision

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Speaker 1: to finally, after eighteen years, breakaway. Also, he shares the

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Speaker 1: heartbreaking story of how he first heard about the mass

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Speaker 1: suicide on the news. The Lessons he's learned as a

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Speaker 1: result and what his life is like now. Our heart

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Speaker 1: really goes out to anybody affected by the Los Angeles fires.

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Speaker 1: So Lola and I are fine, We are safe, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: just a lot of grief and stuff too move through.

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Speaker 1: So thank you everybody who reached out. And without further ado,

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Speaker 1: let's speak to Frank.

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Speaker 2: So we left off last week with Frank telling us

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Speaker 2: about how he had been in the group for a

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Speaker 2: long time at this point and Tea one of the

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Speaker 2: two leaders. It was Tea and Doe, and Tea was

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Speaker 2: the woman and Doe was the man who you've probably

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Speaker 2: seen in the videos that they made. Tea died of

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Speaker 2: cancer and this was totally against their plans. They were

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Speaker 2: going to be taken up into space while they were

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Speaker 2: still alive. So things started really changing with Doe. He

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Speaker 2: started getting more controlling, he started getting more obsessive, and

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Speaker 2: basically he started talking about suicide. So that's where we

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Speaker 2: left off last week, and we'll catch up with him

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Speaker 2: now he's passing.

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Speaker 3: In that way had a huge impact on doees thinking

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Speaker 3: about how the graduation would occur, and that worked on

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Speaker 3: him over the coming months and years to the point

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Speaker 3: where he began to entertain ideas of how we might

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Speaker 3: do our vehicles in which was entirely diametrically posed to

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Speaker 3: the way it was originally presented.

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Speaker 2: How was it originally presented?

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Speaker 3: We will be taken up in a craft while we're conscious,

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Speaker 3: we will ascend while conscious and alive.

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Speaker 2: But now t has died, so there must he's got

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Speaker 2: to find a way to reshape the narrative.

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Speaker 3: Right, And as Sawyer mentioned, he talked about how he

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Speaker 3: came across a book about how to take one's life

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Speaker 3: and he was shocked. Yeah, he found it cleaning up

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Speaker 3: those quarters one time, and that queued him into the

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Speaker 3: fact that Doe was considering how we might leave by

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Speaker 3: taking your lives. That happened shortly after Tea passed on.

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Speaker 2: What did you think about that?

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Speaker 3: It was a huge red flag for me, but I

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Speaker 3: suppressed it. I couldn't bring it up. I couldn't talk

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Speaker 3: to anybody about it because it would have been at

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Speaker 3: least I thought it would have been seen as doubting

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Speaker 3: my older member. But there were other red legs like that.

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Speaker 3: I mean one thing. In April of nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 3: a branch Davidiant caught fire in Waco, Texas, and that

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Speaker 3: made a huge impression on Dough. That got him thinking

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Speaker 3: about how maybe we should learn to fire firearms and

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Speaker 3: that would stimulate our own demise. And you know, that

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Speaker 3: was a huge red leg for me, like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: like that's gonna work really well, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: As In, like, if you had guns, a standoff with

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Speaker 2: the police would happen and they would kill you, right right.

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Speaker 3: But not necessarily a standoff. Simply the fact that we

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Speaker 3: had guns would cause an altercation that would end up

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Speaker 3: taking our lives. But I think they decided that would

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Speaker 3: be too messy. This was after I left. They decided

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Speaker 3: not to do that. But Waco happened in April of

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Speaker 3: ninety three and I left in August.

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Speaker 2: What can you talk to us about the time when

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Speaker 2: you and Erica both go back to Calgary and visit

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Speaker 2: your families.

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Speaker 3: I think that's after Tea's passing, probably like around September

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Speaker 3: eighty five, since both their families were in Calgary, Dough

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Speaker 3: decided we could be each other's check partners.

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Speaker 2: Why were you allowed to go home?

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Speaker 3: This was the second visit I believe, back to visit

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Speaker 3: our families, And the reason that that came up was

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Speaker 3: because a mother of one of the members had been

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Speaker 3: in com Intact had somehow been making contacts with different

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Speaker 3: X members and gathering information about us, you know, trying

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Speaker 3: to locate her son. She was also making contact with

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Speaker 3: other members who are still in the group their families.

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Speaker 3: She started putting out a newsletter every month or two Goodness,

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Speaker 3: and they would all receive news and updates through this network.

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Speaker 3: My parents were in the network, and Erica's parents were

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Speaker 3: in the network. So the visits to families were designed

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Speaker 3: to allay our family's fears about what we were doing,

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Speaker 3: that we weren't in danger, and you know, we weren't

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Speaker 3: up to no good and we were healthy and happy,

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Speaker 3: and that was what it was designed to do. So

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Speaker 3: one visit was before Tea passed on, and the other

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Speaker 3: visit was afterwards. So we were going to travel together.

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Speaker 3: Traveled back to Calgary and we had a layover in

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Speaker 3: Salt Lake City, so we were sitting in the secluded

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Speaker 3: area of the airport. There was not much activity, and

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Speaker 3: I felt this overwhelming feeling of love for Erica that

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Speaker 3: I hadn't allowed myself to feel even though we lived

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Speaker 3: in the same house. I would always suppress bit in

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Speaker 3: the routines of everyday life. Plus being surrounded by other

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Speaker 3: group members, of their class members, was like any feeling

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Speaker 3: like that got drowned out amongst the vibrational, energetic chatter

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Speaker 3: of our everyday life. So being alone with her, none

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Speaker 3: of those intervening influences had a chance to suppress that.

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Speaker 3: So I reached over and I gave her a hug.

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Speaker 3: And I think they may have misquoted me or something.

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Speaker 3: I've done several documentaries. But what happened was she quickly

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Speaker 3: said as I hugged her that she had asked though

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Speaker 3: if she could hug me, and he had said yes.

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Speaker 3: I never had the foresight to ask hug her, and

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Speaker 3: I never thought that I would never considered it. But

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Speaker 3: I mean that to me illustrates the level of conditioning

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Speaker 3: of the group that Erica would have the foresight to

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Speaker 3: ask if it was okay to give me.

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Speaker 2: A hug, just to have a hug. Yeah. Wow, What

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Speaker 2: did it feel like that hug?

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Speaker 3: Well, it was it was like the flood of everything

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Speaker 3: that I had suppressed towards her came rushing up and

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Speaker 3: it was intense. This was in my mind, but I

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Speaker 3: didn't have the courage to express it. But if she

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Speaker 3: had said to me, let's stop doing this, less runaway,

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Speaker 3: let's not do this anymore, I would have said, definitely, yes,

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Speaker 3: I agree, Les, let's quit it. It's silly. But I

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Speaker 3: was of two minds. I had the conditioning of the group,

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Speaker 3: so did she, So I didn't let myself express that.

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Speaker 3: I didn't think she would be amenable to it anyway.

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Speaker 3: She probably wouldn't have been.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what a moment. Yeah, gosh, that's still in the eighties, right.

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Speaker 3: I think this was eighty five eight.

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Speaker 2: More years you were in You told a story in

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Speaker 2: the documentary of insulting your masculinity that have been.

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Speaker 3: Shortly after Tea passed on. The goal was always to

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Speaker 3: let go of our masculinity, let go of our femininity,

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Speaker 3: to be in the middle, to be androgynous, because members

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Speaker 3: of the kingdom level of human are androgenous. They have

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Speaker 3: no sexuality, they have no mammalian behavior. So this particular

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Speaker 3: morning we were meeting in the morning, I was at

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Speaker 3: the front. Everyone was seated in semicircles around him, and

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Speaker 3: I raised my hand to ask a question or maybe

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Speaker 3: to in our reservation. I don't remember what it was,

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Speaker 3: but I spoke up, and it was shortly after we

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Speaker 3: had gotten up, so my voice was a little bit husky,

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Speaker 3: It had a morning huskiness to it. And those response

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Speaker 3: was not to reply to me, but to mimic my

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Speaker 3: voice in a what's the word like mocking or well

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Speaker 3: I was mocking, but in a way to emphasize the

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Speaker 3: deepness of the voice to convey a point to me.

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Speaker 3: And my response was to feel extremely humiliated, yeah, and

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Speaker 3: feel this smoldering resentment and anger within me that I

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Speaker 3: couldn't express because to do so it would have been

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Speaker 3: to question him, to disrespect him as our teacher, as

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Speaker 3: our leader. So I had this tremendous internal conflict going

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Speaker 3: on that I couldn't express in any way. You know,

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Speaker 3: if I were to have had a free feeling, like

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Speaker 3: I could have free expression of what I was feeling

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Speaker 3: and thinking, I would have. Oh, I would have used

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Speaker 3: some explicits. Probably how the f dare you put me down?

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Speaker 3: And this way? You know, you say you're a leader,

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Speaker 3: you put yourself up there from the class as a teacher,

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Speaker 3: as somebody having wisdom that you're trying to impart to us,

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Speaker 3: and yet you do this behavior of mocking and putting down.

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Speaker 3: But I couldn't. I couldn't say that, so I stuffed

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Speaker 3: that emotion. My understanding of that now is that when

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Speaker 3: we suppress our emotion, when we stuff away emotion that's unprocessed,

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Speaker 3: it ends up residing energetically in our bodies. It resides

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Speaker 3: energetically in our cellular structure and in our oric field,

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Speaker 3: and it can eventually turn into disease if we don't

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Speaker 3: allow it to express and we don't allow ourselves to

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Speaker 3: process it anyway. That's a tangent. But over the course

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Speaker 3: of the next few weeks, I gradually developed a stutter

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Speaker 3: and inability to really speak clearly and fluently. Was as

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Speaker 3: if this energetic suppression was itself being expressed as the

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Speaker 3: inability to express my own thoughts freely. And I still

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Speaker 3: have the residual of that. I haven't freed myself from

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Speaker 3: it completely, much better than I have been. But that's

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Speaker 3: another illustration of the dynamic of cult leader over cult member.

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Speaker 3: Wow to me, looking back, the result of Tea's passing

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Speaker 3: had a detrimental effect on Dough. He became more controlling,

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Speaker 3: He became more ocd, probably out of insecurity of being

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Speaker 3: left with guiding the class on his own regardless, That's

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Speaker 3: what I saw, what I experienced. The episode of him

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Speaker 3: making fun of my voice to me was an example

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Speaker 3: of that stepping back for a second looking at it

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Speaker 3: as a life coach, because I'm a life coach right now,

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Speaker 3: and as a life coach without compassion, it would be

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Speaker 3: a terrible life coach. Without empathy, I would be a

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Speaker 3: terrible life coach. Without active intuition, it would be a

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Speaker 3: terrible life coach. And to me, in the exchange that

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Speaker 3: we had that day with Oh, he lacked intuitive awareness,

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Speaker 3: he lacked empathy, he lacked compassion.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us about the final straw?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mentioned there were some red legs coming up

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Speaker 3: along the way toward the end was the idea of

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Speaker 3: learning to fire firearms. There's another one as well. They

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Speaker 3: were first beginning to talk about in nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 3: and that was the idea of getting castrated. The men

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Speaker 3: getting castrated right because of the sexual impulses that they

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Speaker 3: wanted to lessen. They thought that would help. And that

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Speaker 3: was a red flag to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, were you still in the group when they began

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Speaker 2: or no?

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Speaker 3: Well, apparently I was, but I didn't know because they

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Speaker 3: didn't tell us that was when the first.

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Speaker 1: One took place, and that was there was only one correct.

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Speaker 3: No, there was one, and then ultimately I think there

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Speaker 3: were six or seven. Wow, man who had castrations.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: There was one guy who went first, what was his name,

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Speaker 1: cerroty Previdy.

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Speaker 2: That was really sad. I know, it broke my heart,

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Speaker 2: and then the other people following, and actually Doe was

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Speaker 2: also frustrated, right correct, Yeah, wow, so so heartbreaking. You're

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Speaker 2: like every little piece of identity is just stripped away

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Speaker 2: from all of you, just every single possible thing right

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Speaker 2: down to your sex. I mean, gosh, it's a miracle

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Speaker 2: that you were able to break away.

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Speaker 3: That last year that I was in the group I worked.

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Speaker 3: I mentioned I worked for Microsoft, and that got me

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Speaker 3: interested in software. I started out as a receptionist, but

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Speaker 3: I learned to use Microsoft Excel. That was their brand

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Speaker 3: new spreadsheet program that Microsoft came out with. So I

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Speaker 3: worked for Microsoft for two years in the Dallas sales office.

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Speaker 3: My boss, who is the regional sales manager for the

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Speaker 3: Southern Region, was being promoted to national sales manager for Microsoft,

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Speaker 3: and he had asked me to go with him as

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Speaker 3: his assistant. Of course, I couldn't. I was in the.

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Speaker 1: Culton that I'll do it.

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Speaker 3: But here's the thing. If I had gone, they were

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Speaker 3: offering stock options at that point, so I would have

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Speaker 3: been a millionaire.

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Speaker 2: Oh Frank, don't break my heart. Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: So anyway back to the year before I left. The

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Speaker 3: year before that year, I worked for this fellow in

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Speaker 3: Phoenix who was this software business owner, and he hired

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Speaker 3: me to kind of help get his head above water,

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Speaker 3: I found out later because he was drowning. His customers

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Speaker 3: were not pleased, so he wanted to hire me to

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Speaker 3: help get things back on track with his customers. He

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Speaker 3: was a terrible, terrible customer service. So I worked for

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Speaker 3: him for a year until I had enough and it

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Speaker 3: was time for me to get ato the job. Doe said, yeah,

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Speaker 3: go ahead, good, done the job. So I did. I

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Speaker 3: got another job with one of his competitors, that fellow

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Speaker 3: who's terrible customer service. I got a job with the

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Speaker 3: woman who was also in the same business and had

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Speaker 3: been getting a lot of his customers, and now she

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Speaker 3: got one of his developers. She was a really good

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Speaker 3: boss to work for. So think of this juxtaposition. Now

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Speaker 3: I work for this woman, I was her first full

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Speaker 3: time employee. She treated me really, really well. We designed

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Speaker 3: software together. She gave me full rein on how I

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Speaker 3: wrote the software. When we had happy customers, which was

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Speaker 3: virtually all the time, she gave me full credit for

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Speaker 3: those happy customers. So I was treated really well. And

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Speaker 3: you know, my creative uses could flow in this software business,

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Speaker 3: whereas going back to the class at night on the weekends,

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Speaker 3: there's no uniqueness, no creativity allowed. You totally line you

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Speaker 3: follow procedures. You know, Doe's view of perfection was the

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Speaker 3: Star Trek civilization known as the Borg. I know, if

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Speaker 3: you watched Star Trek, you will be assimilated and resistance

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Speaker 3: is feudal and you're part of the machine and you're

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Speaker 3: a cog in the wheel. So working for this woman

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Speaker 3: made life bearable, right even though I suppressed the fact

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Speaker 3: that it wasn't bearable, The fact that I needed that,

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Speaker 3: you know, the fact that that made it bearable should

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Speaker 3: have been a blaring message to me, but it wasn't.

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Speaker 3: So then at the end of August it was time

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Speaker 3: to move again. We would move every year or two,

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Speaker 3: so we were moving to San Diego. So I thought, okay,

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Speaker 3: no big deal. I've quit my job plenty of times before.

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Speaker 3: We just go to the new place and get a

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Speaker 3: new job, no big deal. On the drive between Phoenix

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Speaker 3: San Diego, I started having this feeling in the pit

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Speaker 3: of my stomach. I just can't be here anymore. I

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00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:15,640
Speaker 3: didn't intellectually understand that it was just this gnawing feeling

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Speaker 3: that I couldn't ignore, you know. So I had a

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Speaker 3: check partner with me in the car, and I talked

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Speaker 3: to her about this, and she suggested that I speak

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Speaker 3: with Doe when we got to San Diego. So I did,

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Speaker 3: and he said, okay, we I'll sleep on it and

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Speaker 3: I'll talk to you in the morning. I slept on

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Speaker 3: it still felt the same way in the morning, and

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Speaker 3: then he said, okay, well, let's have an eating A

295
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Speaker 3: little while later, they called me upstairs to Doe's quarters

296
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Speaker 3: and there were four other classmates there with Doe. Four

297
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Speaker 3: of his trusted helpers, of which Sawyer was one. Sir Odie,

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Speaker 3: who had the first castration, was in and then Live

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Speaker 3: Odie and Jane Odi, who were the two who helped

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Speaker 3: Doe with tea before she passed on, and they were

301
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Speaker 3: there kind of as a buffer like I was at

302
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Speaker 3: one end of a work table, and I was at

303
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 3: the other and the other four were on the long

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Speaker 3: end as a buffer between Doe and me. It was

305
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Speaker 3: kind of like an intervention to talk some sense into me.

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00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,400
Speaker 3: He took a couple of different approaches. First, he said, well,

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Speaker 3: you haven't done anything to make me displeased with your

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00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 3: behavior or anything. You're a good student. There's no reason

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Speaker 3: for you to leave. And I just kept turning to

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Speaker 3: this gut knowing I couldn't ignore, or I knew I

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Speaker 3: had to follow it no matter where it took me

312
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Speaker 3: at and even the gut knowing went against my mental

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Speaker 3: conditioning h but I had no choice but to follow this.

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Speaker 3: So Dough changed his approach a little bit, bringing up

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Speaker 3: the thought that, well, you know that the world will

316
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Speaker 3: be plowed under when we leave, and you know you

317
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 3: will lose your life along with all of the others

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Speaker 3: as the civilization is plowed under. They thought of the

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Speaker 3: earth as a garden for souls, and periodically the garden

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Speaker 3: gets plowed under with each new season. So that was

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Speaker 3: the analogy. And because this crop of souls had resulted

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Speaker 3: in so few coming into this classroom circumstance with ten

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Speaker 3: do the crop was bad. So that meant the crop

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Speaker 3: had to be plowed under. The civilization had to be

325
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Speaker 3: plowed under through earth changes like earthquakes or the switch

326
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Speaker 3: of the Earth's sacks, this resulting in huge earth changes.

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Speaker 3: That's what they thought. And it didn't matter to me

328
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Speaker 3: what he said, whatever he said, I just kept returning

329
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Speaker 3: to this gut knowing said up, sorry, no matter where

330
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Speaker 3: this leads me, even though I'm plowed under whatever, I

331
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Speaker 3: have to follow this gut knowing. So he said, okay, well,

332
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Speaker 3: we'll get you a double bag packed up, and we'll

333
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 3: give you one thousand bucks, and you can get a

334
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 3: bus ticket or a plane ticket wherever you want to go,

335
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Speaker 3: and we'll take you. And that'll be that. It's not

336
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 3: like they wanted me there against my will, because that

337
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 3: would have been disruptive to everyone else's focus.

338
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Speaker 2: Wow, that's actually very surprising. I feel like generally the

339
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 2: stories are, you know, kind of trying to bully people

340
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Speaker 2: into staying right. In nineteen ninety seven, the remaining members

341
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 2: of Heaven's Gate have their exit planned. They believe that

342
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Speaker 2: there's a flying saucer hiding behind the Hailbop comet, and

343
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Speaker 2: they believe they're going to teleport to it. So thirty

344
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 2: nine people commit suicide together and Rancho Santa Fe, California

345
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: by taking apple sauce or putting the lace with the

346
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 2: deadly drug. And it's, you know, just such a tragedy.

347
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Speaker 2: How did you find out and how did you feel?

348
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Speaker 3: Well? I was living in white Rock, British Columbia, which

349
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Speaker 3: is right by the border, and I was working in Bellingham, Washington,

350
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Speaker 3: So I lived in Canada, worked in the US, and

351
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Speaker 3: I was coming home from work at night and I

352
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Speaker 3: heard a radio report on the news as I was

353
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Speaker 3: driving home. It said that a group of all male

354
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 3: monks had been found in San Diego to have committed suicide.

355
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Speaker 3: You know, it was a breaking story at that point,

356
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Speaker 3: and I knew it was. Chills ran up and down

357
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 3: my spy and I knew it was then. And then

358
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 3: the story developed over the next few days and came

359
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 3: out that day. The police thought that they were all

360
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 3: male because they all have the same haircut. I appeared

361
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 3: on the Larry King Live TV program news program. This

362
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 3: was April first, so it was my April for Fools joke.

363
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 3: I was on, Sawyer was on, and another fellow who

364
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 3: was an ex member who had left before I had left.

365
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 3: Was also on all three of us were ex members.

366
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 3: They flew me from Bellingham to Seattle for the satellite uplink,

367
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 3: so there was a clip in the HBO documentary of

368
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 3: me with the long hair, and that was from Larry

369
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 3: King Live. So from that the local newspapers started calling me.

370
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 3: My phone didn't stop ringing. I didn't want to give

371
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 3: any local interviews. I was heartbroken, and yet even at

372
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,199
Speaker 3: that point, after having been out of the group for

373
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 3: three and a half years, I felt like they had

374
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,479
Speaker 3: the right to live their life as they wanted, and

375
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 3: they had the right to take their lives as they

376
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 3: saw a fit. I wrote a letter to all of

377
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 3: my coworkers in the company where I worked because they

378
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 3: I was aware several people had seen the Larry King

379
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 3: Live episode, so I wanted to stem the tide of

380
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: the rumor mill and just let people know what was

381
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 3: going on it. I lost many, many friends who I

382
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 3: shared a great deal with, not just my cousin, not

383
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: just my ex girlfriend. That I was heartbroken, I can imagine.

384
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and your last conversation with Erica was when you.

385
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 3: Were leaving, right It was two days after I left,

386
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 3: So she had called me at my parents. I was

387
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: staying with my parents in Calgary because that's where I

388
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: went when I left the group. And you know, I

389
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: knew she would have had somebody else on the line,

390
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 3: a check partner on the other extension while she was

391
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 3: talking to me. But she implored me to come back

392
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 3: to the group, repeating some of the things that Doe

393
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 3: had said of you know, there's no reason for you

394
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 3: to be out there. You belong here. I have no

395
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 3: way of knowing whether or not Erica had suggested to

396
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 3: Doe that she called me, or if Doe had suggested

397
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 3: to Erica that she called me, But through much of

398
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 3: that conversation, Erica was weeping. She was emotionally upset that

399
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 3: I had left. And because Erica wasn't in San Diego

400
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 3: when I left, we drove to San Diego in three shifts,

401
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 3: and eric was back in Phoenix cleaning the house and

402
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 3: getting it ready to relinquish to the renters. So I

403
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 3: left without saying goodbye to her. I'm sure that was

404
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 3: tough for her. But one thing I said to her

405
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: was I need to stay out here for a while.

406
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 3: I need to follow this gut knowing, and I feel

407
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 3: like it would be really helpful if you spent time

408
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,719
Speaker 3: outside the colt as well. I didn't call it a

409
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 3: call outside the group. She didn't say anything, and I

410
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 3: don't know if she would have wanted to say anything,

411
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 3: but she would have known that that would have been

412
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 3: heard by the person on the other line, right. But

413
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 3: the conversation lasted about three minutes and that was it.

414
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 3: We said goodbye. Wow. That was the last time I

415
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 3: spoke with her. Wow.

416
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: Well, I'm just so sorry that you lost so many

417
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: people that you love. Must have been really hard.

418
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 3: Can we talk about that? Yeah? I want to talk

419
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 3: about it on two different levels, yes, please. One is

420
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 3: it's the level of heartbreak, you know, the human experience

421
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 3: of loss. I experienced that in a real way, and

422
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,239
Speaker 3: I didn't expect now to get emotional about it, but

423
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: obviously it still impacts me. But the other thing that

424
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 3: I realize is, and I'm not expecting others to buy

425
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: into this, but my view of life is that we

426
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 3: do live succeeding lives. Reincarnation is a real thing. In

427
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 3: between incarnations. There's what's called this pre birth planning, in

428
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 3: which I and my sole group map out what I

429
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 3: want to experience in my life and who will play

430
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: different parts in that lifetime and what part I will

431
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 3: play in my lifetime in others lives. There's a working

432
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 3: together to determine how we will experience the lessons we

433
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 3: want to learn at the sole level during that life.

434
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 3: So with that as background, if that is a real thing,

435
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 3: if that pre birth planning is a real thing, I

436
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 3: and every member of the Heaven's Gate Cult planned their

437
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:53,479
Speaker 3: participation in the cult, including the option to leave or

438
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 3: to stay to the end and take their lives in suicide,

439
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 3: because of the lessons that they wanted to learn, and

440
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 3: it extends even to their family members experiencing the loss

441
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 3: of them the lessons they wanted to learn at the

442
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 3: soul level through that loss.

443
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: What do you think your lesson was?

444
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,719
Speaker 3: One of my biggest lessons through all of this is

445
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 3: to trust my inner knowing above everything else. Follow that

446
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 3: knowing no matter what anything outside is telling me, in

447
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 3: the face of any onslaught of conditioning or peer pressure

448
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 3: or societal norms, follow what I know. It's like the

449
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: God connection within me. It's not my mind, it's my

450
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 3: heart and my gut knowing. You know that our heart

451
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 3: has a much larger energy field than our brain, and

452
00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 3: our heart has lures the heart poetically time after their

453
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 3: poems that talk about the knowing of the heart, and

454
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: it's true, the heart has tremendous knowledge. Their hearts are

455
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 3: connected to every other heart. That's how we are all

456
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 3: one us through our heart.

457
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 2: Well, I think that that's a beautiful lesson me too.

458
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: Who what a story?

459
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, how are you doing? Now? How's your life?

460
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 3: Well? My life is perfectly imperfect. I started van life

461
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 3: in August of twenty nineteen.

462
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: Do you live in the van? Are you traveling around?

463
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: Yeah?

464
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: What's your setup like?

465
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 3: Well, it's not a big van, but it's got everything

466
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 3: I need. I have a seven gallon freshwater tank and

467
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 3: a seven gallon greywater tank and a submersible pump, so

468
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 3: I have running water, running cold water. My mother's gift

469
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 3: to me through her passing in twenty eighteen. What's this van?

470
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 3: Through her inheritance, I could buy this ban So, thank

471
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 3: you mother.

472
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: So now you get to be adventurous and do whatever

473
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 2: you want and follow your heart exactly. That's awesome. Well, man,

474
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: I can't thank you enough for talking to us. This

475
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: has been really just wonderful.

476
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: Tuly, thank you so much.

477
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: Is there anything you'd like to say or mention or

478
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 2: shout out.

479
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 3: Well, I have mentioned to many people that I was

480
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 3: writing a book. I started the book in twenty fifteen,

481
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 3: and the book has kind of languished over the last

482
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: several months.

483
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: Well, we're all languishing over the last several months, let's

484
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: be honest.

485
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 3: But I would like to get it out and get

486
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 3: it published. I have a publisher that I really like

487
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,239
Speaker 3: lined up. I just need to get it done. It's

488
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 3: about halfway done. I'm a little bit overwhelmed by it.

489
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: Writing is a challenge. I really feel you there by day,

490
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: bird by bird?

491
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: What's that a Lamont book? Bird by bird?

492
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 3: Right?

493
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: Just sentenced by sentence?

494
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, just as much as you can handle every day.

495
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 2: But I have faith in you, and I absolutely want

496
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 2: to buy your book, So you have to finish it.

497
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: Amen.

498
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got to get it at the door and

499
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 3: my purpose he agrees. I just need to get the

500
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 3: freaking thing out of the door.

501
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: So that's how I feel about my script. Awesome. Well,

502
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: do you have any social media?

503
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm on Facebook. You can just search for my

504
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 3: name Frank leiferd Lyford. I'm on Instagram. I have a website.

505
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 3: It's called Facilitating You LETTERU dot com.

506
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 2: Well, thanks again so much, Frank, you welcome.

507
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 3: I've enjoyed talking to you both.

508
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: I really will never get over the openness and vulnerability

509
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: with which Frank is able to speak about the story

510
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: that happened to him. So once again, thank you to

511
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: Frank for being our guest. Everybody in Los Angeles, stay

512
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: safe out there. Our hearts are with you and we

513
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: will see you well here next week. Remember to follow

514
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: your gut look out for red flags. I never ever

515
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: trust by.

516
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

517
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

518
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

519
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

520
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

521
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

522
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

523
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 2: I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

524
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

525
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

526
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word