WEBVTT - CLASSIC: The Malleus Maleficarum: A Real-life Witch Hunter's Bible 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:04.000 So Villa Ridiculous Historians. As you know, nobody fact checked this. 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:07.320 We used to be witches and witch hunters before we 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:08.600 started podcasting. 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:11.360 That's how we met. Yeah, we're a regular van helsing. 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.520 Between the two of us, we create one whole van 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:16.799 helsing exactly. 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:22.000 Yes, this is a classic episode as we're moving toward 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:26.000 the autumnal Halloween season that we wanted to share with you. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:31.480 It is about one of the most famous books about 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:32.760 hunting witches. 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.640 And as you might imagine, it has an incredible name, 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:38.599 the Malleus Mela. 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:41.680 Fakara, The Hammer of the Witches. Hell. 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:45.880 Yeah, let's get to it. 0:00:46.000 --> 0:01:14.000 Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Let's cut straight 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:18.480 to the chase with some fairly terrifying numbers. During the 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.800 early modern period of European history that stretches from around 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:27.800 fourteen fifty to seventeen fifty, somewhere in the neighborhood of 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:32.000 one hundred thousand people, the overwhelming majority of them being women, 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.200 were tried for the crime of witchcraft, and about half 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:39.800 of these folks fifty thousand, were executed, usually by being 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:44.400 burned alive. But why man, why Because they were suspected 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.240 of being witches nol Ah. 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:51.240 Yes, the great witch panic of those years you mentioned. 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:55.200 Yeah, the great three hundred year witch panic. 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:56.760 Yeah, that I was a big one. 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:58.320 That's a big one. That was a big one. 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:00.520 It was. That's why it's the great witch panic. And 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:03.760 with the mediocre, the other lesser witch panic. 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.120 Hey, let's give a shout out to our super producer, 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:12.760 Casey Pegram, who, too our knowledge, has never in fact 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:16.160 hunted witches. That's true, right, Casey, that is correct. 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.280 Yes, no witch hunting in my past, Casey on the 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:23.600 case that's good. That's good to know because it's not 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:27.600 a very noble pursuit. No. Yeah, we read about it 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.200 in history, some of the most famous ones being like 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.720 the Salem witch Trials, the one that was famously depicted 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:37.880 in The Crucible, the play by Arthur Miller, and it 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:43.079 typically involves a bunch of over zealous religious nuts looking 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:44.320 for something that just is not there. 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:49.320 Right. It's strange because I had studied this in the past. 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:51.320 There's a book I want to recommend called The Devil 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.440 in the Shape of a Woman. Witchcraft in colonial New England, 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:59.520 and one of the most interesting things about the witch 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:04.920 hunting hysteria and the practice that continued for so long 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:09.239 in Central Europe, well most of Europe, and in the 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:12.560 colonial US or what would become the US, is that 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:17.760 in many cases there were people who genuinely believe that 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:21.480 some occult or supernatural event was occurring. But there were 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:24.600 also people who were prosecuting these cases out of a 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:29.679 more cynical self interested motivation, because you see, if you 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:33.160 could prove that someone was a witch in a lot 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:37.600 of jurisdictions, their belongings and their estate would. 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:39.960 Later go to you. I did not know that, ben. 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:41.640 So its a way to disenfranchise women. 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.360 Oh not only disenfranchised women, it was a way to 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:49.200 persecute women for their sexuality. And a lot of the 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.480 language in the book we're going to talk about today, 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:58.440 the Melias Maleficarum, revolves around women being temptresses in some 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:03.680 way or some how using their sexuality to lure men 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.400 to be tools of Satan, in some way making them 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:10.840 more open to Satanic influence. So it's in large part 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:15.640 a way of punishing women for their sexuality because a 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:19.120 lot of these men were either used to just controlling 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:21.440 women in the form of a wife or in the 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:23.680 form of being some sort of higher up in a 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.720 community and having expecting to be kowtowed too at all 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.400 times members of the opposite sex in any sense that 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.279 a woman had some kind of power that they could 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.599 not understand it and maybe made them uncomfortable, they wanted 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:36.920 to kind of squash it. 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:42.400 Absolutely, absolutely, and not even kind of. They definitively wanted 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:46.400 this status quo he had established to remain the same. 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:50.800 The crime of witchcraft, as it was defined during this 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:55.200 period of time, consisted of two main sort of branches. 0:04:55.520 --> 0:05:00.600 The first was the obvious one, the practice of harmful magic, 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.880 using some sort of mysterious other worldly power to bring 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:08.360 misfortune on other people in your community. This could be 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.200 the infliction of a disease. Everybody gets sick. Let's blame 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.720 that a elderly person who lives alone over by the 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.120 edge of the woods. It could be the death of 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:23.920 human beings or livestock. It could also often going back 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.400 to your note about sexuality, knowal, it could be the 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:32.520 crime of making men sexually impotent, and so they're like, oh, 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:36.520 I can't get aroused anymore. You know what, It's not me, 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:41.120 It's that elderly person who lives alone on the other 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:41.880 side of town. 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:43.800 Yeah, but didn't have to be elderly at all. Right, 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:44.680 it could be anyone. 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.679 It could be anyone. And these these hunts were incredibly 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:53.440 extensive at times. In Germany. In fifteen eighty nine, in 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:57.400 a place named Kuedlenburg, one hundred and thirty three women 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.640 were executed in one day and there was a witch 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.839 hunt fifteen eighty five. Germany is very bad about this. 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.359 That left two German villages we get this, only one 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:07.840 female resident each. 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:09.200 It's insane. 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.680 So that's the that's the context we want to lay 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:18.400 out here. This stuff was tragic, horrific, and looking back 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.320 from our time in the modern day, it could seem 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:25.880 like some sort of group insanity. But we have to 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:30.080 remember the people who were prosecuting these cases didn't just 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:36.880 believe that they were acting logically. They wanted to, I guess, 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:42.160 formalize this, and that leads us to the book you mentioned, Noel. 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.920 The proper name is what malleus maleficarum, that's right, and 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.159 also known as the hammer of the witches. 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.880 Or in German. I love this, de hexin hamma. There 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.680 we go, de hexinama hexa. 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:57.200 So what is this? 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:01.640 It is, as you said, ben a codify book of 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:03.880 all of these things that we just mentioned. Okay, so 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.119 the writers of this book didn't just invent this stuff 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:07.640 out of whole cloth. It was kind of in the 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.680 zeitgeist already. Witches do exist in the Bible, right, I 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:16.720 mean this idea of black magic or of you know, Antichrist, 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:20.520 sort of some kind of anti god entity. 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:23.040 Right, sorcery as an infernal power? 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.560 Exactly? Is the word witch in the Bible? 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:30.600 Ben It's a fascinating question, no, because there are various 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.120 kinds of things that we call witchcraft and divination in 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.400 the in the Hebrew Bible, and it's generally mentioned in 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:43.280 a disapproving tone. But the problem that we run into 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:47.960 is a problem of translation, because somebody might translate something 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.960 that just says like sorcery or soothsaying into witchcraft. 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:54.600 Yeah. I've got one here from Leviticus nineteen thirty one 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:58.080 that uses the word spiritists. It says, do not turn 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.200 to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.400 defiled by them. I am the Lord your God. Or 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.040 from Chronicles thirty three six, he sacrificed his children in 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:12.480 the valley of ben Hennon practiced divination and witchcraft sought 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:16.320 omens and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:18.960 in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger. So 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:23.720 to your point, been translation, but very interesting to google 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:27.200 this and see, Yes, witchcraft is in that form in 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:28.600 the Bible in such ways. 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:32.960 If not the W word itself, the privuses, yeah, the 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:37.319 tone like Galatians five nineteen mentions it. It's there are 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:42.359 several places where you can find Bible verses about witchcraft. 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:44.679 But to your point, Noel, which I think is a 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:49.960 very important point, the authors of this book, who are 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.679 understood to be two Dominicans, a guy named Johann Sprenger 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.960 and a guy named Heinrich Kramer, they weren't just saying, 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:02.040 let's give people our pace of witches. They were pulling, 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.880 as you said, from a tradition and a system of 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:09.800 beliefs that it existed long before them. The book, or 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:13.600 the document as some people prefer to call it, was 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.760 written around fourteen eighty six, and when they were writing it, 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.840 they were essentially compiling all these other things into sort 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:22.319 of a one stop shop. 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:26.640 But not without their own editorializing. Right, That's a big 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.520 part of it, because this guy, Heinrich Kramer, was sort 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:33.960 of like a failed witch hunter, and he never really 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.160 got the respect that he felt he was due and 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.240 was kind of a bitter man, and decided he wanted 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:45.480 to spread the word and kind of get people thinking 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:48.880 about these things that were very dear to him, persecuting 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:52.920 potentially wicked women for whatever reason. You know, he wanted 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.360 to influence that and kind of have his say on 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:58.120 how people were going to look at this, and he 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:00.880 put all this in a book along with his partner 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:02.839 Jacob Spranger. M hmm. 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.320 That's correct. And there's an interesting part of Kramer's motivation 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:11.440 that we have to examine here. You know how some 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:16.680 unscrupulous people on a get rich quick scheme will self 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:20.319 publish a book on Amazon and then use that book 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.880 as sort of a bona fide or a mark of 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.440 their own credibility, totally expertise, Like, you know, the best 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:29.680 way to become a self help expert is just to 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.359 write a book that purports to teach people to help themselves. 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:37.760 Kramer also wanted, in addition to warning the general public, 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.599 or at least the literate public, against the danger of witchcraft, 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:43.320 he also wanted this book to give him the official 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:48.719 authority to hunt witches. And again, this guy has somewhat 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:54.239 of a myopic focus, but it also has some alarmist 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:58.200 nature to it. It doesn't. Over the what two hundred 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:02.800 and fifty six pages, it attempts to do several things. First, 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.680 it wants to prove that witches and witchcraft are real. 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:09.280 Don't be deceived, they are real. They are out to 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:13.120 get you. Second, building from that and says these witches 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:16.400 are real, they are infernal, they work with demonic forces, 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:21.040 so therefore they must be killed. And then third, it 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:25.120 wants to convince readers that not only are witches real, 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:27.600 not only are they dangerous, but they are signed of 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:29.640 the apocalypse, the end of the world. 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.640 And it does a really interesting thing that creates a 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:37.319 real conundrum for when these witch trials start going completely bonkers. 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:41.959 It points out that the Bible says there are witches. Therefore, 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.520 if you don't believe in witches, you are an accessory 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:50.439 to their evil crimes. Yeah, similar to that old Edmund 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:54.160 Burke quote the only thing necessary for the triumph of 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:56.840 evil is for good men to do nothing, only even 0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:59.840 further right, Because this is literally saying if you think 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:03.680 it means you know, if you're standing up for the 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.439 truth and saying that this is not real, this there 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:08.920 is no witchcraft, or this person definitely is not a witch. 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:12.400 Then they can accuse you of being a heretic yourself 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.920 simply for not believing what you're supposed to believe. 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.920 If you're not with us, you're against this, totally against us. 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:24.040 Okay. 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.280 So if we divide the book, we talked about kind 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.599 of three aims of the book, we can also divide 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:34.560 the work into three rough sections. The first is, as 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:38.319 we said, this explanation that witches are real, they are dangerous. 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.400 The second is a guide for the experts the clergy 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:45.280 on how to recognize a witch, and they get pretty specific, 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:48.320 you know, like devil's marks, which could be anything from 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:52.040 a mole to a scar, right certain types of behavior 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.160 or things that occur in their communities. And then the 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:59.680 third part, the final part, is a legal manual for 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:04.120 how to properly accuse and persecute a witch and if 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.480 finding them guilty spoiler alert, very few people were found 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:11.440 innocent to give them the death penalty. And in the work, 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:15.840 there's a really interesting bit of double think here because 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:19.400 the authors say that you shouldn't be deceived if someone 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.240 appears to be weak, they say, in fact, the weak 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:26.800 people are the most dangerous witches. And what this meant 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:28.840 is that a lot of times people who lived on 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.920 the fringes of society because they were say mentally ill, 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:37.000 or they were very poor, they became the number one targets. 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:41.559 And then also we have to face the facts. I'm 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.640 pulling some of this from a really excellent podcast called 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:49.920 fifteen Minute History, with an episode on witch hunting in Europe. 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:53.880 The guests on this episode is guy named John E. Green, 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.160 professor in history at the University of Texas and Austin, 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:02.840 and he points out that a lot of times persecuting 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:07.240 witches made things even worse for the community because people 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:12.559 who would be considered witches would be like medical practitioners 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.040 literally the only healthcare in the village or in the town, 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:21.040 or midwives and you know, let's say a birth goes 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:25.280 wrong through no fault of the midwife, if you know, 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:27.640 depending on their luck, they may be accused of purposely 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:30.680 killing the child. Or if you're treating someone who has 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.440 a disease and they don't get better because hey, it's 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:37.080 an incurable disease, then they flip the script and say 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.360 they're not better, not because leprosy is incurable at the time, 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:42.720 but because you're a witch. 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.320 What a horrible position to be in to literally being 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.560 the first line of defense for helping people and opening 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.200 yourself up to this kind of scrutiny and ridicule. It 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.520 reminds me of that scene we're talking about the tests 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:57.440 and like the things that were contained in this book, 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.120 which is also the kinds of tortures and how now 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.120 you should go about torturing a witch to get a 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.800 proper confession. But it reminds me of that scene in 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.240 Monty Python the Holy Grail where they're trying to see 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.160 if it's a witch, and they're like, does wood sink 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.440 in water? No, it floats, So then throw her in 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:15.560 the water and see if she floats. What else floats 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.000 in water? A duck? And then the king is like, 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.080 so if she weighs the same as a duck, then 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.000 she's a witch. It's like this kind of circular logic. 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:26.960 You know, this is satire, obviously, but that's the kind 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:28.520 of stuff that was in this book. 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:33.320 In this book, although maybe it started out as somewhat 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:37.040 of a specialized tool, this book becomes wildly popular, right 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.760 it goes through what twenty eight editions. I think there 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.720 are more than thirty thousand copies circulated throughout Europe. 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.000 Yeah, I think it's sold more copies than any book 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:51.200 but the Bible up until sixteen seventy. 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.800 Eight, which is insane, especially when you consider what a 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:58.240 pain it was to make a book at that time. 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:04.240 So this also get some endorsement from the papacy itself. 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:07.680 The Pope issues a papal bull, it's document that the 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:10.920 Pope signs themselves stating the official church opinion. 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.640 And this is pre publication though, right, It's like he 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:17.240 kind of sanctioned them to do this research. And this 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.040 bull was included in the in the printing. 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:24.680 Yes, yeah, and this book it's a hexellen Hammo is 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:29.360 the only thanks man. This book is the only work 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:33.200 of its kind to receive the official approval of the 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:38.160 Catholic Church. Now, people will tell you that there's some 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:44.040 fairly convincing, circumstantial evidence that Kramer bribed the Pope to 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:45.840 condone the Hammer of the Witches. 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:50.680 Yeah. I also read somewhere that it's not even specifically 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.320 about the Hammer of the Witches, that they sort of 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:56.480 almost like fudged it a little bit to make it 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:58.840 seem like it was more about that, but it was 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:03.360 actually a little broader and not specifically condoning everything that 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.560 they were putting forth in this book. But it's like 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:09.680 the best New York Times book review you could possibly get, 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.040 or the best celebrity endorsement you can ever imagine having, 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.760 is having this thing included inside your book jacket cover. 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:19.679 Pope says, good to go. You know, this is this 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:20.879 is the this is the one. 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.719 Yeah, it's kind of like having writing a book about 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.959 how to be a better person and having h an 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.880 endorsement from mister Rogers or something. Not quite because we're 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:35.560 talking about God, you know, in divinity. But while we're 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.840 talking about fudging this, there's an interesting thing. We we 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:43.240 mentioned Jacob Springer or Johann Springer as he's often called. 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:48.600 He was in later editions mentioned as a collaborator, but 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.639 nowadays a lot of historians believe that his name was 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.880 just added as kind of an endorsement. Yeah, that's right, 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:58.560 that's right. I read that too, and that he didn't 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:03.240 actually have much to do with the creation of the book, 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:08.800 sort of like how Quentin Tarantino air quote presented the 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.960 man with the Iron Fist directed by Rizza, and Tarantino 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.560 didn't really have anything to do with how he hung out. 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:16.520 I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure he They. 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:18.800 Probably had n't share with his name on it on set. 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.600 And he probably made a rant about something in pop culture. 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:22.560 But that's just what he does. 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.280 Yeah, that's just kind of how Quinton is totally. 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:26.680 So what was the bone? What were the bona fides 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:29.120 of Springer? Again, Ben, I'm sorry if you said it 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.240 just helped me out. I want to understand a little better. 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:36.160 Yeah, he was dean of the University of Cologne in Germany, 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:41.600 and he was also a friar of some note. 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:45.399 And here's the thing the bull itself, it was more 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:51.720 intended to confirm powers that inquisitors, or that a guy 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:56.680 named Henry instatoris and James Springer, who were inquisitors, already 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:59.800 have to quote deal with persons of every class and 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:04.680 every form of crime, for example, with witchcraft as being heresy. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:09.879 And it called upon the Bishop of Strasburg to lend 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:12.720 this is a quote from the from the Bull, lend 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:18.640 inquisitors all possible support. And the reason that Kramer enlisted 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:22.200 Springer was because Spranger's name is actually in the bul 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.040 but it had nothing to do with the book. It 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:28.720 was more about seeking out witchcraft and prosecuting it in general, 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.000 because the law had changed where I believe it used 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:37.639 to be more a church specifically a church duty to 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.000 seek these things out, but then it kind of became 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.280 more of a municipal thing. And when we start seeing 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:48.359 the crazy panic of witch hunt pandemonium, that's because it 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:49.840 became a lot easier to do. 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.400 Yeah, that's that's the thing, and I think that's that's 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.040 well put. We would be remiss if we didn't mention 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.720 that one of the things clear condoned by the book 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:02.720 is torture. 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:04.880 Oh yeah, horrific torture. Yeah. 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:09.280 Kramer's favorite was something called the strepato, which is a 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.760 device that attaches to the wrist and pulls them upwards 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.840 so the victims hang by their arms until their arms dislocate. 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.000 Yeah, anytime we talk about this kind of stuff, I 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:22.080 just get the hebe gv's so bad, Like the thumb screws, 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:24.919 the ones that would literally shred your hands, you know, 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.160 by like these vices that your hands would go in. 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:29.199 And there was one that was some kind of like 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:32.480 helmet you would put on with like a drill that 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:37.800 would go right into your forehead. Just barbaric stuff. And 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.360 another thing that was in the in the book was 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:44.080 a caveat saying you don't have to tell the person 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:46.159 you're accusing who accused them. 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:51.719 Right. It also recommends, oddly enough, deception in order to 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:56.600 obtain confessions. So there's a quote here where it says, 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:59.639 and when the implements of torture been prepared to judge, 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:02.000 both in person and through other good men zealous in 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:04.800 the faith, tries to persuade the prisoner to confess the 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.919 truth freely. But if he will not confess, he bid attendance, 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.280 make the prisoner fast to the strepado or other implement 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:17.120 of torture. The attendants obey forthwith yet with feigned agitation. 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:19.679 Then at the prayer of some of those present, the 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:22.520 prisoner is loosed again and taken aside, and once more 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:26.240 persuaded to confess, being led to believe that he will, 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.480 in that case not be put to death. That's why 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:32.600 so many people confessed, because they got tortured for some 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:35.159 amount of time, and then they got pulled aside and 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:38.320 someone said, hey, look, if you just come clean about this, 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:41.359 stop it can end. Now, of course you don't have 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:41.800 to die. 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:46.480 And we already know this about military interrogation, that interrogation 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:51.000 under torture does not yield results that are reliable because 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:53.800 people will say anything if you'll stop doing the horrible 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:54.640 thing to them. 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:59.520 Right exactly, And that's I mean, it's the I hate 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:02.000 to say it. Tortures of tale is old as time. 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:06.359 And didn't they also talk about the quote unquote more 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:09.080 carnal inherent nature of women. 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:11.720 Absolutely, that's what we're talking about the top of the show. Yeah, 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:14.520 I feel like that's something it's inherent in this whole 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:18.480 persecution of women for witchcraft. But yes, it carries over 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:22.040 into this codified you know, book of all of these 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:26.040 different techniques. I was watching a documentary on this book 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:28.760 on History Channel, and I forget the guy's name, but 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.760 he was a scholar who specifically studies this work, and 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:35.119 he pointed out all of these very charged words that 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:38.199 were used in the text, the words that didn't have 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:40.840 to use and they were Latin obviously, but words that 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.760 would mean something like disgusting or filth, you know, as 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:49.280 opposed to just you know, not good, like very charged 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:53.159 language or a word that meant a temptress or some 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:55.680 kind of adulteress, you know, where it was like, this 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:58.920 is what these women will turn men into through their 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:04.240 you know, witchly wiles or whatever. So very charged language, 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:07.280 very much within it with a position, you know. 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:10.800 And additionally, it's important to note there's a different definition 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:16.920 of seduction at play here. It's completely possible, for instance, 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:22.760 for someone to have sexually assaulted an innocent person in 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:26.320 a village and then say, I'm a good Christian man. 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:30.439 She seduced me through the use of witchcraft, of course, 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:33.840 so in addition to me attacking her as a punishment 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:36.560 her powers, she should be put to death. 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:39.080 It reminds me of the story we did about women 0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:42.960 being incarcerated for having sexually transmitted diseases, where that was 0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:46.600 flipped as well and used by men to treat like 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:49.840 men would give women these sexually transmitted diseases and then 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:52.639 act like they had given it to them, or use 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:54.840 it to ostracize them in some way. There was one 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:56.680 story I believe where a man like left a woman 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:58.200 on the side of the road or something like that. 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:02.040