1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: So Villa Ridiculous Historians. As you know, nobody fact checked this. 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: We used to be witches and witch hunters before we 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: started podcasting. 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 2: That's how we met. Yeah, we're a regular van helsing. 5 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 2: Between the two of us, we create one whole van 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 2: helsing exactly. 7 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: Yes, this is a classic episode as we're moving toward 8 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: the autumnal Halloween season that we wanted to share with you. 9 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: It is about one of the most famous books about 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: hunting witches. 11 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: And as you might imagine, it has an incredible name, 12 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 2: the Malleus Mela. 13 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: Fakara, The Hammer of the Witches. Hell. 14 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get to it. 15 00:00:46,000 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Let's cut straight 16 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: to the chase with some fairly terrifying numbers. During the 17 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: early modern period of European history that stretches from around 18 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: fourteen fifty to seventeen fifty, somewhere in the neighborhood of 19 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand people, the overwhelming majority of them being women, 20 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: were tried for the crime of witchcraft, and about half 21 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: of these folks fifty thousand, were executed, usually by being 22 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: burned alive. But why man, why Because they were suspected 23 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: of being witches nol Ah. 24 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: Yes, the great witch panic of those years you mentioned. 25 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, the great three hundred year witch panic. 26 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, that I was a big one. 27 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: That's a big one. That was a big one. 28 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: It was. That's why it's the great witch panic. And 29 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: with the mediocre, the other lesser witch panic. 30 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: Hey, let's give a shout out to our super producer, 31 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: Casey Pegram, who, too our knowledge, has never in fact 32 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: hunted witches. That's true, right, Casey, that is correct. 33 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 2: Yes, no witch hunting in my past, Casey on the 34 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 2: case that's good. That's good to know because it's not 35 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: a very noble pursuit. No. Yeah, we read about it 36 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 2: in history, some of the most famous ones being like 37 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: the Salem witch Trials, the one that was famously depicted 38 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: in The Crucible, the play by Arthur Miller, and it 39 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 2: typically involves a bunch of over zealous religious nuts looking 40 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: for something that just is not there. 41 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: Right. It's strange because I had studied this in the past. 42 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: There's a book I want to recommend called The Devil 43 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: in the Shape of a Woman. Witchcraft in colonial New England, 44 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: and one of the most interesting things about the witch 45 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: hunting hysteria and the practice that continued for so long 46 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: in Central Europe, well most of Europe, and in the 47 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: colonial US or what would become the US, is that 48 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: in many cases there were people who genuinely believe that 49 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: some occult or supernatural event was occurring. But there were 50 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: also people who were prosecuting these cases out of a 51 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:29,679 Speaker 1: more cynical self interested motivation, because you see, if you 52 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: could prove that someone was a witch in a lot 53 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: of jurisdictions, their belongings and their estate would. 54 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: Later go to you. I did not know that, ben. 55 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: So its a way to disenfranchise women. 56 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: Oh not only disenfranchised women, it was a way to 57 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: persecute women for their sexuality. And a lot of the 58 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: language in the book we're going to talk about today, 59 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: the Melias Maleficarum, revolves around women being temptresses in some 60 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: way or some how using their sexuality to lure men 61 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: to be tools of Satan, in some way making them 62 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: more open to Satanic influence. So it's in large part 63 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 2: a way of punishing women for their sexuality because a 64 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: lot of these men were either used to just controlling 65 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 2: women in the form of a wife or in the 66 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 2: form of being some sort of higher up in a 67 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 2: community and having expecting to be kowtowed too at all 68 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: times members of the opposite sex in any sense that 69 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 2: a woman had some kind of power that they could 70 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 2: not understand it and maybe made them uncomfortable, they wanted 71 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: to kind of squash it. 72 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, and not even kind of. They definitively wanted 73 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: this status quo he had established to remain the same. 74 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: The crime of witchcraft, as it was defined during this 75 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: period of time, consisted of two main sort of branches. 76 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: The first was the obvious one, the practice of harmful magic, 77 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: using some sort of mysterious other worldly power to bring 78 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: misfortune on other people in your community. This could be 79 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: the infliction of a disease. Everybody gets sick. Let's blame 80 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: that a elderly person who lives alone over by the 81 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: edge of the woods. It could be the death of 82 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: human beings or livestock. It could also often going back 83 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: to your note about sexuality, knowal, it could be the 84 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: crime of making men sexually impotent, and so they're like, oh, 85 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: I can't get aroused anymore. You know what, It's not me, 86 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: It's that elderly person who lives alone on the other 87 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: side of town. 88 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, but didn't have to be elderly at all. Right, 89 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 2: it could be anyone. 90 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,679 Speaker 1: It could be anyone. And these these hunts were incredibly 91 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: extensive at times. In Germany. In fifteen eighty nine, in 92 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: a place named Kuedlenburg, one hundred and thirty three women 93 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: were executed in one day and there was a witch 94 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: hunt fifteen eighty five. Germany is very bad about this. 95 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 1: That left two German villages we get this, only one 96 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: female resident each. 97 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: It's insane. 98 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: So that's the that's the context we want to lay 99 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: out here. This stuff was tragic, horrific, and looking back 100 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: from our time in the modern day, it could seem 101 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: like some sort of group insanity. But we have to 102 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: remember the people who were prosecuting these cases didn't just 103 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: believe that they were acting logically. They wanted to, I guess, 104 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: formalize this, and that leads us to the book you mentioned, Noel. 105 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: The proper name is what malleus maleficarum, that's right, and 106 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: also known as the hammer of the witches. 107 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 2: Or in German. I love this, de hexin hamma. There 108 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: we go, de hexinama hexa. 109 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: So what is this? 110 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: It is, as you said, ben a codify book of 111 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 2: all of these things that we just mentioned. Okay, so 112 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,119 Speaker 2: the writers of this book didn't just invent this stuff 113 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: out of whole cloth. It was kind of in the 114 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 2: zeitgeist already. Witches do exist in the Bible, right, I 115 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 2: mean this idea of black magic or of you know, Antichrist, 116 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: sort of some kind of anti god entity. 117 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: Right, sorcery as an infernal power? 118 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 2: Exactly? Is the word witch in the Bible? 119 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: Ben It's a fascinating question, no, because there are various 120 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: kinds of things that we call witchcraft and divination in 121 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: the in the Hebrew Bible, and it's generally mentioned in 122 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: a disapproving tone. But the problem that we run into 123 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: is a problem of translation, because somebody might translate something 124 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: that just says like sorcery or soothsaying into witchcraft. 125 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. I've got one here from Leviticus nineteen thirty one 126 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: that uses the word spiritists. It says, do not turn 127 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be 128 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: defiled by them. I am the Lord your God. Or 129 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: from Chronicles thirty three six, he sacrificed his children in 130 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: the valley of ben Hennon practiced divination and witchcraft sought 131 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: omens and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil 132 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger. So 133 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: to your point, been translation, but very interesting to google 134 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: this and see, Yes, witchcraft is in that form in 135 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: the Bible in such ways. 136 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: If not the W word itself, the privuses, yeah, the 137 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: tone like Galatians five nineteen mentions it. It's there are 138 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:42,359 Speaker 1: several places where you can find Bible verses about witchcraft. 139 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: But to your point, Noel, which I think is a 140 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: very important point, the authors of this book, who are 141 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: understood to be two Dominicans, a guy named Johann Sprenger 142 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: and a guy named Heinrich Kramer, they weren't just saying, 143 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: let's give people our pace of witches. They were pulling, 144 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: as you said, from a tradition and a system of 145 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: beliefs that it existed long before them. The book, or 146 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: the document as some people prefer to call it, was 147 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: written around fourteen eighty six, and when they were writing it, 148 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: they were essentially compiling all these other things into sort 149 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: of a one stop shop. 150 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 2: But not without their own editorializing. Right, That's a big 151 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: part of it, because this guy, Heinrich Kramer, was sort 152 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 2: of like a failed witch hunter, and he never really 153 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: got the respect that he felt he was due and 154 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: was kind of a bitter man, and decided he wanted 155 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: to spread the word and kind of get people thinking 156 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 2: about these things that were very dear to him, persecuting 157 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: potentially wicked women for whatever reason. You know, he wanted 158 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: to influence that and kind of have his say on 159 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: how people were going to look at this, and he 160 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: put all this in a book along with his partner 161 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 2: Jacob Spranger. M hmm. 162 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: That's correct. And there's an interesting part of Kramer's motivation 163 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: that we have to examine here. You know how some 164 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: unscrupulous people on a get rich quick scheme will self 165 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: publish a book on Amazon and then use that book 166 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: as sort of a bona fide or a mark of 167 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: their own credibility, totally expertise, Like, you know, the best 168 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: way to become a self help expert is just to 169 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,359 Speaker 1: write a book that purports to teach people to help themselves. 170 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: Kramer also wanted, in addition to warning the general public, 171 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,599 Speaker 1: or at least the literate public, against the danger of witchcraft, 172 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: he also wanted this book to give him the official 173 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:48,719 Speaker 1: authority to hunt witches. And again, this guy has somewhat 174 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:54,239 Speaker 1: of a myopic focus, but it also has some alarmist 175 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: nature to it. It doesn't. Over the what two hundred 176 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: and fifty six pages, it attempts to do several things. First, 177 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: it wants to prove that witches and witchcraft are real. 178 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: Don't be deceived, they are real. They are out to 179 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: get you. Second, building from that and says these witches 180 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: are real, they are infernal, they work with demonic forces, 181 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: so therefore they must be killed. And then third, it 182 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: wants to convince readers that not only are witches real, 183 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: not only are they dangerous, but they are signed of 184 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: the apocalypse, the end of the world. 185 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: And it does a really interesting thing that creates a 186 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 2: real conundrum for when these witch trials start going completely bonkers. 187 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 2: It points out that the Bible says there are witches. Therefore, 188 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 2: if you don't believe in witches, you are an accessory 189 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 2: to their evil crimes. Yeah, similar to that old Edmund 190 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: Burke quote the only thing necessary for the triumph of 191 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 2: evil is for good men to do nothing, only even 192 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: further right, Because this is literally saying if you think 193 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 2: it means you know, if you're standing up for the 194 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 2: truth and saying that this is not real, this there 195 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 2: is no witchcraft, or this person definitely is not a witch. 196 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: Then they can accuse you of being a heretic yourself 197 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 2: simply for not believing what you're supposed to believe. 198 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: If you're not with us, you're against this, totally against us. 199 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 2: Okay. 200 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: So if we divide the book, we talked about kind 201 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,599 Speaker 1: of three aims of the book, we can also divide 202 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: the work into three rough sections. The first is, as 203 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: we said, this explanation that witches are real, they are dangerous. 204 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: The second is a guide for the experts the clergy 205 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: on how to recognize a witch, and they get pretty specific, 206 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: you know, like devil's marks, which could be anything from 207 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: a mole to a scar, right certain types of behavior 208 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: or things that occur in their communities. And then the 209 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: third part, the final part, is a legal manual for 210 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: how to properly accuse and persecute a witch and if 211 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: finding them guilty spoiler alert, very few people were found 212 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: innocent to give them the death penalty. And in the work, 213 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: there's a really interesting bit of double think here because 214 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: the authors say that you shouldn't be deceived if someone 215 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: appears to be weak, they say, in fact, the weak 216 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: people are the most dangerous witches. And what this meant 217 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: is that a lot of times people who lived on 218 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: the fringes of society because they were say mentally ill, 219 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: or they were very poor, they became the number one targets. 220 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 1: And then also we have to face the facts. I'm 221 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: pulling some of this from a really excellent podcast called 222 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: fifteen Minute History, with an episode on witch hunting in Europe. 223 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: The guests on this episode is guy named John E. Green, 224 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: professor in history at the University of Texas and Austin, 225 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: and he points out that a lot of times persecuting 226 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: witches made things even worse for the community because people 227 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 1: who would be considered witches would be like medical practitioners 228 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: literally the only healthcare in the village or in the town, 229 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: or midwives and you know, let's say a birth goes 230 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: wrong through no fault of the midwife, if you know, 231 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: depending on their luck, they may be accused of purposely 232 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: killing the child. Or if you're treating someone who has 233 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: a disease and they don't get better because hey, it's 234 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: an incurable disease, then they flip the script and say 235 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: they're not better, not because leprosy is incurable at the time, 236 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: but because you're a witch. 237 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: What a horrible position to be in to literally being 238 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 2: the first line of defense for helping people and opening 239 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: yourself up to this kind of scrutiny and ridicule. It 240 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: reminds me of that scene we're talking about the tests 241 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: and like the things that were contained in this book, 242 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 2: which is also the kinds of tortures and how now 243 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: you should go about torturing a witch to get a 244 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 2: proper confession. But it reminds me of that scene in 245 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: Monty Python the Holy Grail where they're trying to see 246 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: if it's a witch, and they're like, does wood sink 247 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: in water? No, it floats, So then throw her in 248 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 2: the water and see if she floats. What else floats 249 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 2: in water? A duck? And then the king is like, 250 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: so if she weighs the same as a duck, then 251 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: she's a witch. It's like this kind of circular logic. 252 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 2: You know, this is satire, obviously, but that's the kind 253 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: of stuff that was in this book. 254 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: In this book, although maybe it started out as somewhat 255 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: of a specialized tool, this book becomes wildly popular, right 256 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: it goes through what twenty eight editions. I think there 257 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: are more than thirty thousand copies circulated throughout Europe. 258 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's sold more copies than any book 259 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 2: but the Bible up until sixteen seventy. 260 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: Eight, which is insane, especially when you consider what a 261 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: pain it was to make a book at that time. 262 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: So this also get some endorsement from the papacy itself. 263 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: The Pope issues a papal bull, it's document that the 264 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: Pope signs themselves stating the official church opinion. 265 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 2: And this is pre publication though, right, It's like he 266 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 2: kind of sanctioned them to do this research. And this 267 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 2: bull was included in the in the printing. 268 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and this book it's a hexellen Hammo is 269 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: the only thanks man. This book is the only work 270 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: of its kind to receive the official approval of the 271 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: Catholic Church. Now, people will tell you that there's some 272 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: fairly convincing, circumstantial evidence that Kramer bribed the Pope to 273 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: condone the Hammer of the Witches. 274 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. I also read somewhere that it's not even specifically 275 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 2: about the Hammer of the Witches, that they sort of 276 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 2: almost like fudged it a little bit to make it 277 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: seem like it was more about that, but it was 278 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: actually a little broader and not specifically condoning everything that 279 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 2: they were putting forth in this book. But it's like 280 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 2: the best New York Times book review you could possibly get, 281 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 2: or the best celebrity endorsement you can ever imagine having, 282 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 2: is having this thing included inside your book jacket cover. 283 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 2: Pope says, good to go. You know, this is this 284 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 2: is the this is the one. 285 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of like having writing a book about 286 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,959 Speaker 1: how to be a better person and having h an 287 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: endorsement from mister Rogers or something. Not quite because we're 288 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: talking about God, you know, in divinity. But while we're 289 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: talking about fudging this, there's an interesting thing. We we 290 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: mentioned Jacob Springer or Johann Springer as he's often called. 291 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: He was in later editions mentioned as a collaborator, but 292 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: nowadays a lot of historians believe that his name was 293 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: just added as kind of an endorsement. Yeah, that's right, 294 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: that's right. I read that too, and that he didn't 295 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: actually have much to do with the creation of the book, 296 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: sort of like how Quentin Tarantino air quote presented the 297 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: man with the Iron Fist directed by Rizza, and Tarantino 298 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: didn't really have anything to do with how he hung out. 299 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure he They. 300 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: Probably had n't share with his name on it on set. 301 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: And he probably made a rant about something in pop culture. 302 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 2: But that's just what he does. 303 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just kind of how Quinton is totally. 304 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 2: So what was the bone? What were the bona fides 305 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 2: of Springer? Again, Ben, I'm sorry if you said it 306 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 2: just helped me out. I want to understand a little better. 307 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was dean of the University of Cologne in Germany, 308 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: and he was also a friar of some note. 309 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 2: And here's the thing the bull itself, it was more 310 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 2: intended to confirm powers that inquisitors, or that a guy 311 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 2: named Henry instatoris and James Springer, who were inquisitors, already 312 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: have to quote deal with persons of every class and 313 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 2: every form of crime, for example, with witchcraft as being heresy. 314 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 2: And it called upon the Bishop of Strasburg to lend 315 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: this is a quote from the from the Bull, lend 316 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 2: inquisitors all possible support. And the reason that Kramer enlisted 317 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 2: Springer was because Spranger's name is actually in the bul 318 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 2: but it had nothing to do with the book. It 319 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: was more about seeking out witchcraft and prosecuting it in general, 320 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: because the law had changed where I believe it used 321 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 2: to be more a church specifically a church duty to 322 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 2: seek these things out, but then it kind of became 323 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: more of a municipal thing. And when we start seeing 324 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 2: the crazy panic of witch hunt pandemonium, that's because it 325 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: became a lot easier to do. 326 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's the thing, and I think that's that's 327 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: well put. We would be remiss if we didn't mention 328 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: that one of the things clear condoned by the book 329 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: is torture. 330 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, horrific torture. Yeah. 331 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: Kramer's favorite was something called the strepato, which is a 332 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: device that attaches to the wrist and pulls them upwards 333 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: so the victims hang by their arms until their arms dislocate. 334 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, anytime we talk about this kind of stuff, I 335 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: just get the hebe gv's so bad, Like the thumb screws, 336 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 2: the ones that would literally shred your hands, you know, 337 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 2: by like these vices that your hands would go in. 338 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 2: And there was one that was some kind of like 339 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 2: helmet you would put on with like a drill that 340 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: would go right into your forehead. Just barbaric stuff. And 341 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 2: another thing that was in the in the book was 342 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: a caveat saying you don't have to tell the person 343 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 2: you're accusing who accused them. 344 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 1: Right. It also recommends, oddly enough, deception in order to 345 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: obtain confessions. So there's a quote here where it says, 346 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: and when the implements of torture been prepared to judge, 347 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: both in person and through other good men zealous in 348 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: the faith, tries to persuade the prisoner to confess the 349 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: truth freely. But if he will not confess, he bid attendance, 350 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: make the prisoner fast to the strepado or other implement 351 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 1: of torture. The attendants obey forthwith yet with feigned agitation. 352 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: Then at the prayer of some of those present, the 353 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: prisoner is loosed again and taken aside, and once more 354 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: persuaded to confess, being led to believe that he will, 355 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: in that case not be put to death. That's why 356 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: so many people confessed, because they got tortured for some 357 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: amount of time, and then they got pulled aside and 358 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: someone said, hey, look, if you just come clean about this, 359 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: stop it can end. Now, of course you don't have 360 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: to die. 361 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 2: And we already know this about military interrogation, that interrogation 362 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 2: under torture does not yield results that are reliable because 363 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 2: people will say anything if you'll stop doing the horrible 364 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 2: thing to them. 365 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: Right exactly, And that's I mean, it's the I hate 366 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: to say it. Tortures of tale is old as time. 367 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: And didn't they also talk about the quote unquote more 368 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: carnal inherent nature of women. 369 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's what we're talking about the top of the show. Yeah, 370 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 2: I feel like that's something it's inherent in this whole 371 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 2: persecution of women for witchcraft. But yes, it carries over 372 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: into this codified you know, book of all of these 373 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 2: different techniques. I was watching a documentary on this book 374 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 2: on History Channel, and I forget the guy's name, but 375 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 2: he was a scholar who specifically studies this work, and 376 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 2: he pointed out all of these very charged words that 377 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 2: were used in the text, the words that didn't have 378 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 2: to use and they were Latin obviously, but words that 379 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: would mean something like disgusting or filth, you know, as 380 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: opposed to just you know, not good, like very charged 381 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 2: language or a word that meant a temptress or some 382 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 2: kind of adulteress, you know, where it was like, this 383 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 2: is what these women will turn men into through their 384 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 2: you know, witchly wiles or whatever. So very charged language, 385 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 2: very much within it with a position, you know. 386 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: And additionally, it's important to note there's a different definition 387 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: of seduction at play here. It's completely possible, for instance, 388 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: for someone to have sexually assaulted an innocent person in 389 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: a village and then say, I'm a good Christian man. 390 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: She seduced me through the use of witchcraft, of course, 391 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: so in addition to me attacking her as a punishment 392 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: her powers, she should be put to death. 393 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 2: It reminds me of the story we did about women 394 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 2: being incarcerated for having sexually transmitted diseases, where that was 395 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: flipped as well and used by men to treat like 396 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 2: men would give women these sexually transmitted diseases and then 397 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 2: act like they had given it to them, or use 398 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: it to ostracize them in some way. There was one 399 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 2: story I believe where a man like left a woman 400 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 2: on the side of the road or something like that. 401 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 2: It's another one of these really fed up power dynamics 402 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 2: that is again tail as old as time, and we 403 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 2: see it all codified in this book here, like this 404 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: is the way to do it. 405 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: There's a pretty interesting argument from Atlas Obscure by Sarah 406 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: Lascau about about the hammer of the Witches, which, you know, 407 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: while we're at it, shouldn't it be the hammer for 408 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: the witches? Just grammatically the witches do not have the power, right. 409 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: So what they found was that The Malice Maleficarum was 410 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: once thought to be the handbook for witch hunters, but 411 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: more recent research has found that maybe it wasn't as 412 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: influential as we initially thought, because you're right, you know 413 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: all that Papal Bull from fourteen eighty four and the 414 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: book was written in fourteen eighty six, published in fourteen 415 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: eighty seven, that Papal Bull allows witchcraft prosecutions, but as 416 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: you said, doesn't specifically say this is. 417 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: The book, but it named that guy Springer, which is 418 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 2: the reason that Kramer needed to have him as his 419 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 2: co author, because that allowed him to use that as 420 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 2: a manipulation. And I think we've made it clear. But 421 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 2: this thing caught on like wildfire and spread even to 422 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 2: like the New World, you know, which is where the 423 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 2: Salem stuff comes in. I mean, this became a thing, 424 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 2: and it was literally this like best seller, but not 425 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 2: just one that people were talking about around the water cooler. 426 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 2: This actually caused the deaths of what was that figure 427 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 2: at the top of the show bends the women. 428 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: The early modern period, approximately one hundred thousand and fifty 429 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: thousand of whom that's excuse me, I've ever stated the 430 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: number of no, you got it, you got it. 431 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: I think I said hundreds of them, but hundreds of 432 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 2: thousands of women who were persecuted, and a lesser number 433 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 2: who were actually killed, but in the most gruesome and 434 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 2: horrific ways. 435 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: And to the point about the perceived importance of the book, 436 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: as it was catching on with the public, it looks 437 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: like some members of the clergy were becoming increasingly, I 438 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: don't know, skeptical of the book would be, oddly enough, 439 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: a good word. Leaders of the Spanish Inquisition didn't put 440 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: too much stock in the Hammer, and by at least 441 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: the fifteen thirties they were actively warning their own officials 442 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: away from it because maybe they saw it as sort 443 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: of a personal mission of Kramer's, maybe a little more 444 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: self interest than public interest. But it was still influential 445 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: enough that people would commission specific copies of it, and 446 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: I guess it is important for us to mention that 447 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: while the vast majority of people prosecuted for witchcraft were women, 448 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: there were dudes in there too, and they were also 449 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: put to death. Absolutely, it was kind of anything goes. 450 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: I've got a couple of resources that I'd like to 451 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 2: plug really quick, sure, and I'm interested in finding out 452 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 2: more about this stuff. I know you and I both 453 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 2: love the a twenty four film The Witch. I feel 454 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 2: like that displays these attitudes very strongly. There's a young 455 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: girl character who kind of represents that sexuality that we're 456 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 2: talking about, and there's some kind of telling shots that 457 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 2: show that that's not only an issue for the man, 458 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: it's an issue for the mother, because the mother is 459 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 2: almost even as much threatened by that as any you know, 460 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 2: authority figure male might be. And that becomes a theme, 461 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 2: and this idea of a witch harming crops or livestock 462 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: is represented, and just the kind of idea of this 463 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 2: witch being is it real? Is it not real? Is 464 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 2: it just religious zelotry? Run a muck. That's the thing 465 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 2: that's fun about that movie. 466 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: But there's also the subtle argument for air got poisoning. 467 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 2: That's right. It's right that they're all hallucinating on some 468 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 2: kind of poisoned crop, poisoned corn that has hootinogenic effects, 469 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: which is one of the possible explanations for the Salem 470 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 2: witch trials, which here in How Stuff Works. Our buddy 471 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 2: Matt works on a show about Salem called Unobscure with 472 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 2: Aaron Mankey of lore fame, and our pal Alex Williams, 473 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 2: who composed our theme. 474 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: And now, thankfully this book is surprise, surprise, no longer 475 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: considered an authoritative an authoritative guide to persecuting people for 476 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: perceived supernatural abilities. 477 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't hear so much about people burning witches anymore, thankfully, 478 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 2: But you know there are still which hunts of other varieties, 479 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 2: and all this stuff is very interesting to learn from 480 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 2: and apply to modern day politics and things, which is 481 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: something that they parallel in that show. And I'm scured 482 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: that we're talking about. 483 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: And for his part, Kramer kept writing and preaching until 484 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: he died in Bohemia in fifteen o five. His gambit 485 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: to increase his reputation, or maybe to justify his failed 486 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: attempts at which hunting did seem to succeed because we 487 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: said the Papal bull on persecution witchcraft was published in 488 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: the fourteen eighty seven edition. We didn't mention that by 489 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: fourteen ninety the Church had officially condemned the Hammer of 490 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: the Witches. Was it because they were genuinely concerned for 491 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,479 Speaker 1: the damage it was doing to communities? Or was it 492 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: because he was late with yet another bribe that we 493 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: don't know? 494 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 2: Well, what we do know is that there was rampant 495 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 2: corruption in the Catholic Church and the papacy, and you know, 496 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 2: likely still is given what we know about some of 497 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: the scandals that keep coming to light. So it's uh, 498 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: you know, the more things change and all that. And 499 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 2: this brings us to where's the silver lining here? Yeah, 500 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 2: we need a silver lining. I have a comic recommendation. 501 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 2: Oh good, let's see. That's why the comic recommendation is helpful. 502 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: It's our insurance plan. Yeah yeah, okay. So I'm a 503 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: fan of murky and dark stuff, and I would like 504 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: to recommend today the commic Sir Edward Gray, Witchfinder. So Noel, 505 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: you you know hell Boy and maybe Baltimore and all 506 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: those other things. 507 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 2: I know hell Boy. 508 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: Okay, So Witchfinder is a spin off from hell Boy, 509 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: and it concerns a guy named Sir Edward Gray, who 510 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: is the Queen's official expert on all things supernatural because 511 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: of various interactions he has had saving people from the 512 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: nefarious activities of witches. Edward Gray does not spoiler alert 513 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: use the Hammer of the Witches the hex Mohammah. But 514 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: it's a great story as a matter of fact. Man, 515 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: if you want to borrow some of the trades, I 516 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: have them. 517 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 2: Sure, as soon as I return Locking Key to you. 518 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 2: Oh that's right, can't be double dutch to you. Comic 519 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 2: book wise, Oh, Lock and Key is so great. But 520 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 2: that's my comic recommendation for today. As far as we know, 521 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 2: there is not Thank Goodness a graphic novel adaptation of 522 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 2: the Nalius Maleficara. I think the Constantine comics are really fun. 523 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: That's great, and it involves a. 524 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 2: Lot of different supernatural exploration and things like that. I've 525 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 2: always been a huge fan of Sandman and Neil Gamon's work, 526 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: and Constantine was in that briefly, and he has his 527 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 2: own series that's really great and has Witchcraft and Devilry 528 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 2: and uh Lucifer and all of these great deities, but 529 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 2: they have real personality, so that that's a fun one. 530 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 2: I wouldn't bother with the movie with Keanu Reeves. 531 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: I would. I would watch the movie after reading the comics, 532 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: so just recognize it's a very different thing. 533 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: And I have heard that the TV series that got 534 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 2: canceled was okay, but I was I didn't see it. 535 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: I liked it. To whomever they picked to be the 536 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: lead actor for that the protagonist. 537 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 2: He's got to be real Cockney. He can't be Keanu. 538 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: Reeves genuinely looks like Johnny Constitute. 539 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, cont of Reeves is a weird choice. Here's a 540 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 2: weird choice. I hear he's a great guy though he 541 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 2: seems like a lovely dude. That's sad. Keanu on the 542 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,719 Speaker 2: bench meme is is just delightful. There we go. 543 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: Now we're inting on a better note. 544 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 2: We just had to make ourselves cheer up. I think 545 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: that's what it was. We hope that it worked for 546 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: you as well. Ridiculous Historians, thank you so much for 547 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: tuning in. Thanks to our super producer and avowed opponent 548 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 2: of witch hunts, Casey Pegrew. Thanks to our research pal 549 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 2: Gabe Lucier for hipping us to some of the details 550 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 2: in this kind of depressing but incredible story. 551 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: We already thanked Alex, we did, but we get to 552 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: think you do it again. 553 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 2: It was weird thinking him out of context. 554 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: No, I think it was great. Still, I feel like 555 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: we should let him know that we still do this 556 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: because you said he just nodded once. 557 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 2: That's just what he does. 558 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: He's just he's a nodter. 559 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 2: He's a nodter. 560 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: I mean that as a compliment. 561 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 2: But both he and our long suffering buddy Matt both 562 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 2: work on this Salem show Unobscured with Aaron Mangy, So 563 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 2: check that out if you want to do a deep 564 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 2: dive into the Salem witch trials and how it kind 565 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 2: of dovetails a bit with American politics right now. It's 566 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 2: a very interesting show. Thanks to you, Ben for being 567 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 2: a friend. 568 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: Thanks to you Noel, and thanks to everyone in society 569 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: ever who decided to stop burning people alive. Yeah yeah, 570 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: I think that deserves it. Thank you, and stay tuned 571 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: for our next episode. We can't tell you what it 572 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: is yet for various reasons. 573 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 2: Is it because we don't know. 574 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: Primarily it's because we haven't picked one yet, but we 575 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: can promise that. We hope it will be interested. 576 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 2: It'll be an episode. See it n folks. For more 577 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 578 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.