WEBVTT - Trump Defense Rests & Netanyahu Arrest Warrant 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:12.560 Donald Trump once vowed to take the witness stand in 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:16.239 his hush money criminal trial in Manhattan, but his defense 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:19.479 case wrapped up this morning without jurors hearing from the 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:25.200 former president, although he did speak to reporters outside the courtroom. 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:28.000 Case won the case by any standard. 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:30.520 Any other judge you want to throw the case out, 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:32.479 any other judgy were to. 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:33.880 Throw the station out. 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:37.479 Judge Wanmerschan sent the jury home for a week, setting 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:41.320 closing arguments for next Tuesday, but the attorneys returned to 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:45.720 the courtroom in the afternoon to discuss jury instructions, a 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:49.280 sort of roadmap meant to help jurors apply the law 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.680 to the evidence and testimony. It's a standard part of 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.960 the process that's taken on greater importance because of the 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:00.440 unusual nature of the thirty four false records charges against Trump. 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:04.000 To make each crime a felony rather than a misdemeanor, 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:08.240 jurors must find that Trump intended to commit another crime. 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:11.200 Much of the debate centered on how the judge will 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:15.880 explain those other alleged crimes, including election law violations and 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:20.319 tax crimes. Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter David Voriakis, 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:24.800 who's covering the trial. David. The second and final defense witness, 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:29.080 Robert Costello, was back on the stand. What did the 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:31.240 defense hope to get from his testimony? 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:36.760 The defense called Robert Costello because they wanted to undermine 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.200 Michael Cohen as a witness. This has been a big 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.440 theme of the defense, that Michael Cohen is a liar 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:48.040 and can't be trusted, and that he had also lied 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.240 on the witness stand in this trial as well as 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:55.840 in previous testimony under oath, in Congress and in court. 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.840 What the defense wanted to show was that Cohen could 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:03.320 not we trusted when he said that Costello came to 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:07.680 him in April of twenty eighteen after the FBI had 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:14.560 raided Cohen's house, office, and hotel suite, and that Costello 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:19.200 offered a back channel to President Trump. Cohen testified at 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:24.680 some length about how Costello tried to offer comfort to 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:30.040 Cohen that Trump had his back, and Cohen testified that 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:32.440 he believed that that was just so that he would 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:36.920 stay in the fold and not cooperate against Trump in 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.880 the criminal investigation that federal prosecutors were conducting at the 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:41.880 time and. 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:44.400 What happened on the stand, there was a kerfuffle. I 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:45.480 don't know how to describe it. 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:48.320 There was a major kerfuffle in court at the end 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:51.560 of the day. On Monday, Costello came to this inand 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:55.840 late in the day and he began to refute several 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.399 of the points that Michael Cohen had made in his testimony. 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:07.040 He essentially started giving long soliloquies in his answers, which 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:10.920 is not proper behavior for a witness. They're supposed to 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:14.360 listen to the question and answer the question that's asked 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:18.440 and not go off on a long tirade or rancher soliloquy, 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.480 which is what Costello was doing yesterday. And so the 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.400 judge disdained a number of objections, and then at some 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:31.359 point Costello said, gees when the judge sustained an objection, 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:36.760 and the judge said, I'm sorry, and then Costello said stricken, 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:41.160 referring to his own remark. And after a couple more questions, 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.200 Merchants stopped the proceedings and he asked the jury to leave, 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.040 and he said to Costello, mister Costello, I want to 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:52.280 discuss proper decorum in my courtroom. If you don't like 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.520 my ruling, you don't say ges, and then you don't 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.040 say strike it, because I'm the only one who can 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:02.920 strike testimony in my corporal He also threatened to hold 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:09.200 Costello in contempt, and the judge cleared the courtroom, basically 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:13.960 removing dozens of journalists for several minutes. They then came 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:20.000 back in and saw more subdued Costello finish his testimony. 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.240 So it was a dramatic moment. It's not entirely clear 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.960 how it might affect the case, if at all, but 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.520 it certainly did not help the defense case because they 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:35.880 saw Costello as someone who was going to further aroad 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:38.960 the credibility of Michael Cohen in the eyes of the jury. 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.760 So, David, do you know what made the judge clear 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.480 the courtroom. I've never seen a courtroom cleared. 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.839 It's not entirely clear. I was in the overflow room 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.080 and watching by video hookup, and people in the courtroom 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:56.520 didn't really understand. Reporters objected, and I believe there was 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.400 a lawyer who tried to speak up on behalf of 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:03.560 the media, but the judge just didn't allow it. It 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:07.279 was clear that the judge was quite visibly angry, and 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:12.920 he felt that Costello was openly defying him, and so 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:17.039 I think he wanted a moment to really let his 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.960 anger out with Costello not entirely clear why he felt 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.560 the need to clear the courtroom, but at least it 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:25.239 didn't happen for very long. 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.400 Do you have a transcript of what happened, Well, he 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:29.280 cleared the courtroom. 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:34.159 I do, and that's when the judge threatened to cite 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:38.599 him for contempt. That only went on for brief exchange. 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:42.279 A lot of the transcript reflects sort of the chaos 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.280 of people objecting in the galleries to being ejected in 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:50.880 the courtroom's staff trying to clear the gallery. 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.240 Did the prosecution do a good job of crossing Costello. 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.920 The prosecution did a very effective job of showing that 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:04.000 Costelloose interests seemed to be aligned more with Trump than 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:08.520 they were with Michael Cohen. In the spring of twenty eighteen, 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:14.479 Cohen's lawyers had argued and Costello had testified that Costello 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:18.080 was looking out for Michael Cohen when Michael Cohen was 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.919 very concerned that he would be prosecuted and he was 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:25.880 exploring the possibility of whether he should cooperate or not 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:30.479 against Trump. Trump and his supporters were obviously very concerned 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:35.040 about that. And Cohen had testified, and the prosecution has 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:39.480 argued essentially that Costello was not looking out for Cohen. 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.440 What he was really looking out for was trying to 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:47.400 get information about Cohen and his intentions that would help 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:52.960 Trump in his defense. And the prosecution today on cross 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:57.120 examination showed a number of emails from Robert Costello that 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:01.120 it suggested indeed his interests were Donald Trump. 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.200 Now, who was the first witness that the defense called. 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:08.200 The first witness was a paralegal who works with Todd 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:12.200 blanch who's the lead defense lawyer, and he put up 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:17.920 a summary chart of phone calls and communications between Michael 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.320 Cohen and Todd Blant in his law firm. They were 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.760 trying to show that there were a great many communications. 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.640 And Costello had also testified that he believed they had 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.680 an attorney client relationship, which Michael Cohen said they did not. 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:37.160 But he never hired Bob Costello and he didn't trust him. 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:39.880 I thought they were going to call an expert witness 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:41.600 on campaign finance laws. 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.880 They had talked to the judge at some length yesterday 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.880 about the ground rules for how they might question an 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:53.800 expert witness on campaign finance law, and the judge essentially 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:57.720 listened closely to the objections with prosecutors who felt it 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:02.440 would be unfair or a defense campaigns finance experts to 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.840 go into too much detail on the law, and the 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:10.760 judge agreed, saying essentially that he's the only one who 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.200 can tell the jury what the law is when it 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.680 comes to campaign finance and how it relates to this case. 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.560 And the judge said he didn't want this to become 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:24.040 a so called battle of the experts where the prosecution 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:27.080 had to also call their own experts to refute whatever 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:32.000 the defense experts said, and so he set some very 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:37.600 strict guidelines on what a expert could say. And after 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:41.760 considering those strict guidelines, the defense elected not to call 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:42.719 their experts. 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:46.320 Did the judge instruct Trump about the waiver of his 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:47.319 right to testify? 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.520 Surprisingly, the judge did not do that, and it was 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:56.719 very muted and almost anti climactic. Todd Glintch just that 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:00.640 your honor, the defense prests. There was no discussion with 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:04.200 Trump and that was it. Then the judge shortly after 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:08.280 that told the jury that he was dismissing them until 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:12.000 next Tuesday, May twenty eight, because there had already been 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.920 pre arranged days off on Wednesday and Friday of this week, 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:19.400 and of course Monday is Memorial Day. So the judge 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.679 also wanted to have continuity in the closing argument, so 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.800 I guess he was concerned that they wouldn't be able 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:30.000 to get both closing arguments in one day. So he 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:33.640 said that it's possible that the closing argument may still 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:38.600 over next Tuesday into Wednesday, when he expects that deliberations 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:39.800 will beget in the case. 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.560 Has he set any time limits for the closing arguments? 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.880 He has not set limits yet. He expressed that he 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:50.240 knew that there was a lot to go over and 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:52.400 that they would take some time, but he has not 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:56.600 set a specific length just yet. I assume that as 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:58.480 we get close to the day he will do that. 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:05.520 Instructions are critical tell us about the charging conference on 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:06.559 Tuesday afternoon. 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:11.520 The judge is expecting to work out how they will 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:16.280 instruct the jury about applying the law in this case. 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:21.240 And what's complicated is how the election law applies to 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:26.440 this case. Because the thirty four pulcification of business record 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:31.160 counts that Donald Trump's bases are misdemeanors unless they're in 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:35.640 furtherance of another crime. And the other crime, prosecutors say 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:40.559 is trying to influence the election illegally in twenty sixteen. 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.360 And so there's a lot of complicated case law on 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:48.400 this question, and both sides need to make their best 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.840 case to the judge, who will then make a decision 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.560 on how to instruct the jury on the law when 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:57.559 it relates to the election in twenty sixteen. I'd also 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.480 say that I'd imagine if Trump work victed, the jury 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.760 instruction on election law could be an area of appeal 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:05.360 for him. 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:10.120 Has the prosecution said whether it's federal election law or 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.400 state election law that's concerned here. 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.800 In the filings and in arguments, they've discussed both. That's 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:20.360 why I'm going to be watching closely to see what 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.720 they end up at. I believe in some combination of 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:25.640 state and federal law. 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:29.080 So there could be a verdict in this case next week. 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:33.520 Thanks so much, David. That's Bloomberg Legal reporter David Voriakis 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.040 coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show. What an 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:40.840 arrest warrant from the International Criminal Court would mean for 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:44.359 net and Yahoo. I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:49.439 The chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Court is seeking 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:53.679 arrest warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netton Yahoo and 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.600 TAMAS leader Haya Sinwar for war crimes related to the 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:02.240 Israeli military response in God and the Hamas militant group's 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:06.720 October seventh attack on Israel. Prosecutor Karim Khan said the 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.679 charges against dat Yahoo included crimes against humanity. 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:15.160 The crimes include starvation of civilians as a method of warfare, 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:22.160 wilfully causing great suffering, serious injury to body or health, 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:28.480 or cruel treatment, wilfel killing or murder, and intentionally directing 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.199 attacks against a civilian population. 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:36.959 Net Yahoo call the move a moral outrage of historic proportions. 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.080 He is attacking the one and only Jewish state and 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:44.760 trying to handcuff us, preventing us from exercising responsibly through 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:46.720 the laws of war. As we obey them and we 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.000 are subordinate to them. He's saying we're not. He's creating 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:51.880 false symmetry, false facts. 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.000 Joining me is Kate Macintosh, UCLA law professor and director 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.920 of the Promised Institute for human rights explain the charge 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:00.560 thanks for us. 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:05.959 The accupations fall into two different categories obviously, so as 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:10.480 far as the must leaders are concerned, the focus is 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.840 of course on the hostage taking and the extermination and 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:18.760 murder that was committed on October the seventh, and the 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.439 treatment of the hostages a rather than mistreatment of the 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:26.200 hostages since then, and the prosecutor has characterized those acts 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:30.360 as both war crimes and crimes against humanity, which means 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.360 to say, after the widespread or systematic attack on the 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:36.480 civilian population, So those are two different crimes under their 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:39.520 own statute. There's war crimes violations of the laws of war, 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.679 and then crimes against humanity which don't have to be 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:46.080 committed in an armed conflict, but which can be. Looking 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:51.480 at the charges against Netanyahu and Galants, these fall mainly 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:58.400 into two categories. One is crimes around the placing of Gaza, 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:03.040 effectively Understegd, so the denial of access to humanitarians distance 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:07.199 what he characterizes is starvation of civilians as a method 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.760 of warfare for the besieging of Gaza. And then the 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:16.000 other main crime that they're charged with is intentionally directing 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.160 attacks against the civilian population, which is a war crime 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.400 under laws of war. Of course, it's only committed to 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.880 target military objectives, not to target civilians, and Kareem Kan't 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:31.520 is charging Mettagnohu and Gallant with having intentionally attacked civilians. 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.280 The panel was unanimous. What's the standard? Is the standard 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:36.840 reasonable grounds to believe? 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.920 Yeah, it's a relatively low standard at this point. There 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:44.040 are actually three different points during the process of a 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.400 case where the evidence is tested against an acue. So 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:49.680 this is just the first one in order to issue 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.680 the arrest warrant, and the judges who look at this 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:57.360 application have to be satisfied that there are reasonable grounds 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.720 to believe that the crimes are being committed. Don't test 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.520 any evidence, and even some of the evidence can be 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:07.520 provided in summary. What it really means is that the 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.760 judges will look at each element of the crime and 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:13.720 they'll see whether there is evidentially support of each of 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:17.360 those elements. So the finding they're really making is if 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.560 all of this evidence stands up, then the crime has 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.240 been committed. So it's a relatively low threshold. I'd be 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:28.640 very surprised if the prosecutor fails in this request because 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:32.480 I can't imagine that he would have presented an inadequate 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.080 admission for something so high profile, and he's also asked 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.080 this panel of experts to kind of confirm that he's 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:42.240 on solid ground here. So that, combined with the fact 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:45.560 that the test is a fairly low bar, I think, 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.520 means that we're likely to see the trial chamber granted 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:50.040 his request for the arrest warrant. 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.040 So, just to be clear, the prosecutor at this point 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.080 is requesting a warrant and then it will go to 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.520 a court panel to decide whether or not to issue 0:15:58.520 --> 0:15:59.000 the warrant. 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.440 Yeah, exactly, it goes to what the iccquells a pre 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.440 trial chamber. It will be three judges who are put 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.160 together who consider a range of requests that come up 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.120 before the trial actually starts, and they will be the 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:13.880 ones who will be looking to see if all the 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.720 elements of the crimes have been substantiated by the material 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:19.560 that he's put before them. Just you know, by way 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.120 of explaining what then goes on to happen with the 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:25.480 evidence before the trial happens. There's another procedure, which is 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.160 the confirmation of the charges, and that is of course 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.200 still what the trial, but it's a higher standard. At 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:35.320 that point, the judges will have to consider again, a 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.000 pre trial chamber of judges will have to consider whether 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.160 there are substantial grounds for believing that the crimes have 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.840 been committed. So we've gone from reasonable grounds up to 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:48.120 substantial grounds. And at that point the accused can object, 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:52.520 can challenge the evidence, and can present is or her 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.440 own evidence as well. So it's not a trial, but 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.080 it is a kind of higher threshold where the evidence 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:00.760 is tested to some certain accounts, and if the prosecutor 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:06.159 manages to cross that threshold, then the trial can go ahead. 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:11.480 Israel is not a member of the ICC. Let's say 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:15.320 the rest warrant is issued, what does it really mean 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:16.320 for net Yahoo? 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:18.760 I mean the site that Israel is not a member 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.600 of the icy seed, so it's not relevant to the 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:24.960 jurisdiction over Netanyahu, just because the crimes were committed on 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:28.439 the territory, well, a territory which is subject to the jurisdiction. 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:32.880 So the ICC, as you know, has accepted Palestine as 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.960 a member state of the ICC. They were very careful 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:38.639 to say that they were just deciding in terms of 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.160 ICC membership and not making any bigger statements about whether 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.720 there's a state of Palestine, but that means that any 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.960 acts committed on the territory of a state's party, because 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.240 the statute is subject to the jurisdiction of course, so 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.439 any state can delegate its jurisdiction to a court. So 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.600 that's what Palestine has done. So that's how they are 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:01.000 permitted to charge Netanyahu and Land, even though of course 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.760 their nationality as Israelis would normally place them outside the 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.439 jurisdiction of the court because Israel isn't part of the 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.520 system practically though, and I think that's more what you're getting. 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.080 There is an issue about how the court is going 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:15.359 to get their hands on them, right, because I mean, 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.600 for a start, they are sitting, you know, Prime Minister 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.480 and Minister of Defense, so they're obviously not going to 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:24.359 hand themselves over. Even if Dan was a state party, 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.000 there'd be an interesting situation there. But most to the point, 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.560 Israel is not under any obligation to comply with an 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.560 order of the court. So it's more an issue for 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:40.480 travel for Netanyahu and Galant if the arrest warrant is granted, 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.160 and as I said, I think we can be fairly 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.040 confident that it will be. That's going to be very 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:50.600 interesting because travel to member state of the ITC should 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.359 mean that that state will arrest them, will execute the warrant. 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:56.040 So that could be problematic because. 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.320 Last year, and I believe we talked at that time 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.080 Russian President Vladimir Putin the quarter should have warrant for 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:06.879 him for Doug short of children, and nothing. Nothing's happened 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:08.520 there exactly. 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.440 So that would be exactly an analogous situation. 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:14.080 Yes, let's talk about this internally in Israel and internationally. 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:18.600 So as far as Israel goes, has this backfired because 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.440 it seems as if it's cemented support for net Yao 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.959 at home, including two members of his cabinet who threatened 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:28.679 to resign in recent days if he didn't have a 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:33.000 clear post war vision for Gaza. So has it backfired 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:34.960 in that sense, at least in Israel. 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.560 Possibly, It's hard to know, isn't it. I think, you know, 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:40.800 it may have done. On the other hand, I suppose 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.520 that you know, there may also be segments of Israeli 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.520 society who feel, you know, that it's a stigma that 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:51.000 they're very unhappy about, and it might encourage opposition to Netanyahu. 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:53.280 I think it's important to remember that that is not 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.800 a calculation that the ICC prosecutor is supposed to be making. 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.720 You know, the ICC prosecutor is not meant to be 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:05.359 calculating what the political implications of his indictments or his 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:10.720 requests for arrestaurant are. He's been given authorization to open 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:14.960 an investigation, he's meant to conduct his investigation, and where 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.800 he finds evidence of crimes committed in the statute, he's 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:21.119 supposed to ask request in a restaarrant as he's done. So, 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:25.120 the political ramifications are hard to say which way they're going. 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.199 I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if it creates some 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:30.560 kind of solidarity, is well. I think we can all 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.240 kind of imagine that that is a somewhat natural reaction. 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:35.840 But that isn't really something that Kareem Khan should be 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.120 thinking about internationally. 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:43.640 Netanyahu already has a troubled reputation internationally. Does this add 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.440 a little more of a blemish to his name? 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:49.760 Oh for sure. I mean, apart from anything else to 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:52.520 any sort of headed state meetings that are held in 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:55.280 a state that's parties to the ICC, I mean, they 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.040 wouldn't really be able to invite Menyah. And so we're 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:02.600 talking about pretty much the whole of Europe, Latin America, Africa. 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.000 You know, there are one hundred and twenty four states parties, 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:08.560 so that ICC including some very powerful states on the 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:12.040 global stage. So he will already become somewhat of a 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:16.159 pariah in those circumstances, because no state, frankly wants to 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:18.399 be in the position of having to arrest him and 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:20.280 hand him over to the court. So I think they 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:23.240 would be very likely to just discourage him from traveling 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:24.320 to their territory. 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.600 What are the powers of the International Criminal Court. 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.000 In terms of sort of outside its own walls. The 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:35.760 powers are entirely dependent on other states. So it doesn't, 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:38.480 of course have some kind of international police force so 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:41.359 that it can send out to arrest people. It can't 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:42.560 enforce its orders. 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:43.040 It is a. 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:46.479 Creation of states. So the states that have signed up 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.639 to its statute, the states that run the court, I 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.080 mean the members states that the International Criminal Court meet 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:54.399 every year in December in either New York or the 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:57.879 Hague to discuss how to run the court. There, of 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:00.520 course don't interfere with the legal proceeds and the work 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:03.000 of the judges and the prosecutor. But they decided you know, 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:04.800 how much money to give it, they can amend the 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:09.040 statute and so on. So those are the states who 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.240 are also responsible for enforcing the orders of the court. 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:16.879 So that's why a state in whose territory any of that, 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:20.159 you know, either the Hamas or the Israeli indicities arrived, 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:23.520 would be bound to execute that order. I mean, if 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:26.440 it's granted the arrestaurant and hand them over to the court, 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:30.199 because the court itself doesn't have any enforcements independent of 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:30.960 the states. 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:35.399 What was the last leader that they've prosecuted, actually, you know, 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:37.680 held a trial for well. 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:42.000 The last sitting There is a precedence of having prosecuted 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:45.200 a sitting head of state which did not go well, 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:48.960 and that was the ken Yata in Kenya. I mean 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:53.639 that prosecution ended essentially, you know, very poorly, and what 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:56.199 became clear was that it was almost impossible. I mean, 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:59.320 it was an unsuccessful prosecution. It became clear that it 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:04.840 was almost impossible to prosecute or to effectively investigate a 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:07.520 sitting head of state in the country. So there were 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:11.000 all sorts of allegations of witness intimidation. I believe some 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:14.800 of those were established. If I'm not miss speaking, I 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:18.240 think one witness died in very mysterious circumstances and the 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:21.439 case was eventually dropped. So I mean that was really 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:24.800 a case of prosecuting a leader that came up against 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:28.959 real politique and realizing that when somebody is still wielding 0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:33.639 the power of the state, it's extremely difficult for something 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:36.600 like the International Criminal Court, which, as I said, relies 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:40.040 on states for enforcement of its orders, than to work 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:42.600 effectively to carry out its mandates. 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.000 Coming up next on the Bloomberg Launch Show, I'll continue 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:50.640 this conversation with UCLA law professor Kate McIntosh, and we'll 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:54.879 talk about President Joe Biden's response to the ICC seeking 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:57.320 an arrest warrant for net and Yahoo. 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:03.320