1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Throughout our lives, we face 2 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: health issues off and on, and you never know what's 3 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 1: really going to kind of finally knock you to your knees. 4 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: But the beauty part of that is that sometimes when 5 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: we're struggling with our health, we have an unintended angel 6 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: that kind of enters into our life and promised us 7 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: to be with us to the day that we die. Well, 8 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,919 Speaker 1: that was the case with Reggie and Carol Summer. They 9 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: found one another. They found one another, and they held 10 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: on to one another very very tightly, and they were 11 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: enjoying their retirement. But they were both faced with great obstacles, 12 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: and the greatest obstacle was yet to come. It ended 13 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: in their deaths. Today, we're going to talk about the 14 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: double homicide of Reggie and Carol Sumner. I'm Joseph Scott 15 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Jackie Howard, executive producer of 16 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, is joining me today. Jackie, 17 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,279 Speaker 1: what can you tell us about Reggie and Carol. Carol 18 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: and Reggie Simner reportedly met in high school and rekindled 19 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: their relationship later in life. They found each other, they 20 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: wanted the same things out of the rest of their life, 21 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: and they wanted to spend time together. Yet this couple 22 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: was suffering through some health issues. Reggie had diabetes and 23 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: he had also had some injuries to his ankle which 24 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: required him to need the assistance of a wheelchair or 25 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: a cane on occasion. However, Carol was suffering through liver 26 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: cancer as well as appatitis as a result. It's this 27 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: combination of health issues that will come into play a 28 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: little later, Joe, So let's talk about how their health 29 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: issues are impacting their life right now, their quality of life, cancer, 30 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: health injuries, and diabetes. Yeah, it's a horrible set of 31 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: circumstances to be faced with. You know, they were not 32 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: like really really elderly people. This couple was only sixty 33 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: one years old and they had a lot of years 34 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: in front of mine. I think that that's what they thought. 35 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: At one point in time. They had made this really, 36 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: this really warm promise to one another. It really struck 37 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: me when I was doing the research on this case, 38 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: how they would be with one another until the day 39 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: they died. That they had promised to take care of 40 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: one another, and you know, they had gotten together back 41 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: up in South Carolina, and they felt strong enough about 42 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: the relationship that they had together up there despite their 43 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: health issues, that they decided to sell everything they had 44 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: up in South Carolina and moved down to Jacksonville, Florida, 45 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: you know, just southbound one, and set up a home 46 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: down there, and that they would spend the rest of 47 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: their days down there. And you know, I think that 48 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: one of the thoughts that came to mind. Someone had 49 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: quoted Reggie at one point time as having said that 50 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: the doctors felt like that the environment down in Jacksonville 51 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: near the beach would be good for his condition, and 52 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: he was. You know, they hadn't just said that he 53 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: had diabetes. People have stated over and over and over again, 54 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: relative to his history that he had severe diabetes, which 55 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: means he was obviously insulindependent. It's not some kind of 56 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: pre diabetic state. That means his sugars were probably out 57 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: of whack and he had to have constant monitoring, you know, 58 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: where he's taking his blood sugar level constantly, several times 59 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: a day. He's having to be treated by an end 60 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: of chronologist that's a physician that actually works with people 61 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: that have diabetes. And he was on very specific medication, 62 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: and you know, at towards the end of his life, 63 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: Reggie had injured his ankle. And one of the big 64 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 1: fears for people that have diabetes or any kind of injuries, 65 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: particularly to their peripheral areas, you know, their hands, their feet, 66 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: these sorts of things, because they don't heal quite as well. 67 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: And this was a severe injury. He had actually fractured 68 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: an ankle and it required him at least for part 69 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: of the time, to be wheelchair bound. So you can 70 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: imagine that, you know, he's dealing with everything that's associated 71 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: with diabetes, including maybe compromised eyesight, you know, fatigue, constant sleepiness, 72 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: just a general malaise much of the time. And then 73 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: on top of that, his wife, Carol, she is faced 74 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: with this huge struggle of liver cancer, and liver cancer 75 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: is not something that somebody just kind of easily bounces 76 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: back from. She's in the midst of this of fighting 77 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: this disease, and because she had developed liver cancer, it 78 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: sent her in to what's referred to as hypatic failure, 79 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: which is where deliver begins to shut down and all 80 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: the functions that everything that is required of the liver 81 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: to do, you know, systemically is compromised. At that point 82 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: in time, she develops jauntice along with the hepatitis, and 83 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: that means that she would have a yellow tinge to 84 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: her skin, in constant pain. There's always problems with digestion, nausea, 85 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: these sorts of things associated with this disease, and not 86 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: to mention again, in a very feeble, weakened state. I mean, 87 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: they're both of these people are fragile as newborn kittens. 88 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: As we look at their health conditions, Joe, we see 89 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: the term vulnerable keep being mentioned about these two people. 90 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: What is it about their conditions that make them vulnerable? 91 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: Are we saying that their body is vulnerable to disease? 92 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: Are we saying that these two individuals really are physically 93 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: feeble and unable to defend themselves. Yeah, yeah, that's a 94 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: big part of this. And you know, you can even 95 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: look at primal animal activity and see how predators actually 96 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: pick the weakest among the herd, those that they know 97 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: that they can control and take down. And in the 98 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: Sumner's case, they were the weakest of the week, you know, 99 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: And of course they have things that people might want, 100 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, but they're compromised in sense if 101 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 1: you know, if someone came into their home to attack 102 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: them in any way, they would not be able to 103 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: put up a fight. It would be like a grown 104 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: man going head to head with, you know, somebody that 105 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: has the strength probably of maybe an eight year old child. 106 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: At this point in time, they're just living day to day, 107 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: hour to minute to minute, you know, and probably to 108 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: a great degree, thankful for every second that they have 109 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: on this earth because they I think that they probably 110 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: understood how fragile their life was. You said, predator Joe, 111 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: and you really couldn't have phrased that any better, because 112 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: that is what happened to this couple. They met a 113 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: group of predators, Tiffany Cole, Michael James Jackson, Alan Wade, Bruce, 114 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: Kent Nixon Junior. When the Sumners moved to Jacksonville, Florida, 115 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: they sold a car to Tiffany Cole. Cole agreed to 116 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: make monthly payments and often drove down to Jacksonville to 117 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: make those monthly payments. While in June of two thousand 118 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,559 Speaker 1: and five, Cole and her new boyfriend Michael Jackson drove 119 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: to Jacksonville to complete the paperwork on the sale of 120 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: the car, and while they were there. They stayed with 121 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: the Sumners at their home, and it was there that 122 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: a plan to rob this couple that had been so 123 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: generous to Tiffany Cole was hatched. They planned to steal 124 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: money from their bank accounts. But what's more, they decided 125 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: that they were not adverse to killing this couple if necessary. Joe, 126 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: this goes to this thought, you know, talking about predators 127 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: and the behavior of those types they observed for a while, 128 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: you know, they'll watch, they'll see if there's any danger 129 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: to them. And once they're in such an intimate environment, 130 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, when you're in that small, tight, little circle 131 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: of you know, someone's home, you're actually sleeping in their bed, 132 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: you're eating their food, you're you know, using their bathroom facilities, 133 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things, the predator has the ability 134 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: to walk through there and check everything. See how vulnerable, 135 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: how how easy it is perhaps to access the home, 136 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: how easy it is to maybe take things that are 137 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: just lying around. But here's here's the most important part. 138 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: If you're a predator and you're in what's referred to 139 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: as in asymmetrical relationship with a person, that means that 140 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: you're dominant over someone that is weaker. You're looking at 141 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: them and you can exploit things. You can see that 142 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,719 Speaker 1: they're you know, I use term feeble, and I don't 143 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: mean that it is a disrespecting term. It's just that 144 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: they're feeble in the sense that in their physical bodies 145 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 1: that are very weak. And that's something that you would 146 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: catch on too very quickly. You know. You think about 147 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: Carol suffering from hepatic failure due to liver cancer, and 148 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: she's anytime she takes a step has to grab hold 149 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: of the back of the chair or brace herself against 150 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: the wall. She has to measure every footfall that she 151 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: has in the house. Or you begin to look and 152 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: see that Reggie he doesn't move very well because of 153 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: his ankle, that he would rather be in the wheelchair 154 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: kind of moving himself about the house as opposed to 155 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: ambulating anywhere and automatically. If you are of the mindset 156 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: to attack someone to take everything that they have, it's 157 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: at that moment in time that bells start going off 158 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: in your mind. If you are the aggressor here, and 159 00:10:40,559 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: you know that this is an easy mark for Reggie 160 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,359 Speaker 1: and Carol Sumner, they lived with this false sense of security. 161 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: I think you think that you got the world kind 162 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: of figured out that you're here in this place that 163 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: you've moved to for maybe to better your health and 164 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: to move on with your life and adjust your life 165 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: so that you can be happy and enjoy the love 166 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: of one another. But that suddenly turned a horror for them. 167 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: It did. They trusted Tiffany Cole, which turned out to 168 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: be not a very good idea. Tiffany Cole, Michael Jackson, 169 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: Alan Wade, Bruce Kent Nixon Junior took a month, took 170 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: one month to put their plan into action. They intended 171 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,319 Speaker 1: to invade the home, asked to use the phone, and 172 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: then once inside they were going to attack the family. 173 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what they did. But it was Wade 174 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: and Nixon, who the Sumners did not know, two men 175 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: who knock down the door and asked to use the phone. 176 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: Once inside, they attacked the couple. The couple was bound 177 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: and gagged with the duct tape and from there put 178 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: into the trunk of their Lincoln town car. And meanwhile, 179 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: Tiffany Colin Michael Jackson traveled in their car planning to 180 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: deliberately get pulled over for speeding if police got too 181 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: close to the Lincoln. Now, what would have these physical 182 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: limitations done to the sum nurse, considering they already had 183 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: their own physical limitations. Well, first off, and I think 184 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: that it goes without saying. You know, our fight or 185 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: flight kicks in. But here's the problem. When you're when 186 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: you are physiologically compromised, like Reggie and Carol were, you 187 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 1: might have that thought in your mind that I need 188 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: to flee, that I need to get away, that I 189 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: need to put distance between myself and danger. What's really 190 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: horrific about this is that now you're trapped in these 191 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: bodies that are riddled with disease, diabetes and cancer and 192 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: these sorts of things. So you know, you're you're thinking back, 193 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: I would imagine so when you were thirty and you 194 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: could have maybe put distance between yourself in danger, But 195 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: now you're in this compromised position and you can't. So 196 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: you've got adrenaline pumping, even though you can't use it 197 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,599 Speaker 1: to get away. Your breathing becomes shallow. And one of 198 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,199 Speaker 1: the important points here, and something we need to keep 199 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: in mind is that duct tape was used on both 200 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: Carol and Reggie, and so when that occurs, you know, 201 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: we know that the police have used the term gagged 202 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: over and over again. I don't necessarily think that this 203 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: was a matter of the perpetrators having taken duct tape 204 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: and put a you know, a wad of it into 205 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: their mouth and jammed it down their throat or anything 206 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: like that. I think that it was a covering over 207 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: their mouth, potentially their nose, I'm not sure, but certainly 208 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: the eyes as well. So now you know, your body 209 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: is demanding more oxygen because you're shallow breathing, and you've 210 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: got health problems and your airways compromised to the point 211 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: where you can't uptake oxygen and everything begins to fail. 212 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: You know, for orld Reggie who's suffering from severe diabetes, 213 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure his sugars probably got out of whack, and 214 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, along with diabetes also comes issues like heart 215 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: disease and these sorts of things, so his cardiovascular system 216 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: could well have been compromised as well at this moment time. 217 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: You know, it's really important to have people ask me 218 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: this question a lot, you know, when you begin to 219 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: think about manners and causes of death and they don't 220 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: see a natural disease that can be utilized as a 221 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: means to commit homicide. But I gotta tell you it can. 222 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: If somebody is compromised already and you have an awareness 223 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: of that, you can push somebody to the brink where 224 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: you can actually kill them visa via the indwelling disease. 225 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: They have. I work cases like that, and it's it's 226 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: absolutely horrific. It's you know, it's not as simple as 227 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: just shooting somebody or stabbing somebody, because physiologically they are compromised, 228 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: they have disease on board. You can harm, do great 229 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: harm to someone this way. And you know, this idea 230 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: of being in fear of your life being confined, I mean, 231 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: I don't know that many of us could ever even 232 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: begin to comprehend this idea of being bound and gagged 233 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: and blindfolded. You're already frail, and then you're essentially placed 234 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: into the trunk of your own car and you're completely 235 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: deprived of any of your external sensory indicators. Here, maybe 236 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: you can smell, maybe you can't, but you can't see. 237 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: You're having to be helped along to walk. And the 238 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: next thing you know, you can feel yourself on a 239 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: hard surface. You hear the trunk slam, and now you're 240 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: going down a road you're moving away from where it 241 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: is that you felt you were safe in and you're 242 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: bumping down the road and in total and complete pitch 243 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: black darkness. One of the things that I know about diabetes, Joe, 244 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: is when your sugar is high, it changes your emotions, 245 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: It changes the way that you think. You become confused, 246 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: you can become angry, and then when you crash, you 247 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: can die from your sugar being out of range. So 248 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: describe for me what he would be going through already 249 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: in a panic, from worrying about his wife, worrying about 250 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: his own life, and worrying about his health. You know, 251 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: is he going to be able to assist her in 252 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: any way? So talk to me and explain about how 253 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: all of that is also impacting his idea or notion 254 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: of survival. Yeah, you know, and we don't. You know, 255 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: when you begin to think about the timeline when these 256 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: two showed up at the door and took control of 257 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: Reggie and Carol in their own home, you begin to 258 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: think about this. You don't know where either Reggie or 259 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: Carol were or their medications that day. And that's a 260 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: that's a critical point here because diabetics in particular so 261 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:28,479 Speaker 1: dependent upon their medications to maintenance their life day in 262 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: and day out, and to measure their sugar levels. If 263 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: if he becomes say, for instance, what's referred to as hypoglycemic, 264 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: which means that the sugar dips precipitously, you become lightheaded, disoriented, 265 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: those sorts of things, and you have no idea, You're 266 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: you're totally completely confused at that moment time. So it 267 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: would impact your life greatly. It would impact your ability 268 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: to make decisions to defend yourself this sort of thing. Now, 269 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: if his sugar was going in the other way, if 270 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: if it had jumped up to an unexpected level because 271 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't being maintenanced, and he's in this, you know 272 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: you're going to again become short of breath, diphyeretic, which 273 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: means you're going to be sweating a lot, feeling like 274 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: you're going to pass out. Either way, it's a horrible 275 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: situation to be in. And yeah, he would not have 276 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: been in a position to take care of his wife 277 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: or himself at that point in time. You have to 278 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: compound their situation with the fact that they are in 279 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: the trunk of a car. How is that oxygen supply 280 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: going to impact what is going on, and are they 281 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: in fact getting more exhaust from the vehicle than they 282 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: are oxygen. Yeah, a lot of that is going to 283 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,959 Speaker 1: be depended upon how structurally intact the vehicle is, and 284 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: of course the exhaust system. I've had friends of mine 285 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: that are medical legal death investigators that have worked cases 286 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: where people have been placed into trunks and they have asphyxiated, 287 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: not from the lack of fresh oxygen being able to 288 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: just be present, but because there was an intrusion into 289 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: that environment of carbon monoxide, because there was a faulty 290 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: exhaust system, and that can play a part of it. 291 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: And of course we look for that at autopsy and 292 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: there's certain things that and they would have done this 293 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: with both Carol and Reggie. And if folks at home 294 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: can just think about this, think about the brightest artificial 295 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: cherry pink color you've ever seen on a piece of 296 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: candy or a popsicle or something like that. That's actually 297 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: the color, believe it or not, that that the skin 298 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: of people turns that have been exposed to carbon monoxide, 299 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: even the whites of their eyes become kind of cherry 300 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: pink in color. And so that's something that when we 301 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: see it at autopsy. It's a huge flag for us. 302 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: You know, we're thinking, well, they have been exposed to something, 303 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: and generally that leads back to carbon monoxide, and of 304 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: course they would do you know, in toxicology when they 305 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: draw blood, there's a test that we call a carboxy 306 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: hemoglobin level, which checks the level of carbon monoxide that 307 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: an individual has in their system. You know, just out 308 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: walking around, there are minimal standards that you know you're 309 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: going to be exposed to, particularly an urban environments of 310 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: exhausting that's worth thing, but you can get up into 311 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: those critical areas where it's going to compromise your system, 312 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: and that's certainly something that would have played a part. 313 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: Now when you think about them shallow breathing in this environment, 314 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: if they have any other kind of associated problems with 315 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: their heart their lungs, that's going to play a part. 316 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 1: And yet if the quality of oxygen might not be there. 317 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: But the question you have to ask, is a trunk 318 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 1: actually completely sealed off from available fresh air? And that 319 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: is generally not the case. It's just not It's not 320 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: like you're in a plastic bag, so there would have 321 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: been an air supply. Just I can't attest to the 322 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: quality of the air that they would have breathed and 323 00:20:51,000 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: how much there would have been in there. So the 324 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: Sumners were forced to hand over their financial information, their 325 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: pen numbers for their bank accounts. Tiffany Cole and Michael 326 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: Jackson took their jewelry and ponded and stole other items 327 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: from the Sumners home, and again the ATM card was 328 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: used to obtain more than a thousand dollars in cash. 329 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: Now you would think that this would be enough. You've 330 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: stolen these things from this family, You've taken them away, 331 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 1: but that was not how this was to end. The 332 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 1: couple was driven to South Georgia and placed in a 333 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: four by six foot grave that the perpetrators had dug 334 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: in advance in case it was necessary. You know on 335 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 1: body bags. I think in a previous episode, I actually 336 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: confess to something. I let my listeners know that I 337 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: myself am claustrophobic and I cannot think of many things 338 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: in this world that would terrify me anymore than being 339 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: closed up in a grave or to be buried alive. 340 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, in Reggie and Carol Sumner's case, that's what 341 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: happened to them. The perpetrators decided that despite the fact 342 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: that the Sumners had cooperated and give them all the 343 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: information that they wanted, they'd already stolen money, jewels, and 344 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: other items from the home. They decided that it was 345 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: necessary to kill the Sumners. But instead of shooting, strangling, 346 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: bludgeoning this couple, they placed them into this grave that 347 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: they dug and buried them alive. Joe, my mind is blown. 348 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: I can't even begin to imagine one what was going 349 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: through this couple's mind. But let's talk about what would 350 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: have happened to them. How did they die? Yeah, the 351 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: thing that really strikes me in Reggie and Carol's case 352 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: is the fact that it has come out that this 353 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: grave had been dug almost two days in advance. So 354 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: let's think about that just for a second. That means 355 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: that there was a plan in place. There was never 356 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: necessarily a plan to do anything other than have Carrol 357 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: and Reggie's lives end in a hand dug hole out 358 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: in this desolate area down in South Georgia, which is 359 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: literally right across the border coming up out of North Florida. 360 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: You know, Jacksonville, Florida and the border with Georgia are 361 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: not that far away. But these perpetrators chose an area 362 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: that was very isolated, and they went out there two 363 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: days in advance, and this just boggle in mind and 364 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: dug this hole that they were going to place this 365 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: couple into, and I you know, part of me, you know, 366 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 1: you're you're reading this and you're learning about it, and 367 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: you're thinking, you know, wow, I really wish on one level, 368 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: if they were going to take them out, that they 369 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: would have done it mercifully. This is probably, in my estimation, 370 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: at least, one of the most horrific ways an individual 371 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: can die. And it's not like you're placed in an 372 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: airtight coffin. Regie Carol Sumner were placed in a big 373 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: hole in the ground with a big pile of dirt 374 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: adjacent to it that had been bound with duct tape. 375 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: Hang on a second, Joe. The perpetrators reported that the 376 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: couple had to actually freed themselves from their bindings. Number one, 377 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: how could they have done that? And what were the reports? Yeah, 378 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: you know, the duct tape was used to bind them with. 379 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: And what does duct tape? You know, what's the purpose 380 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: of It's got a really strong adhesive on the back 381 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: of anybody's got duct tapeerin your home can attest to this. 382 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: It's certainly stronger than any kind of tape you might 383 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: use a Christmas time to wrap packages with very resilient, 384 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: very fibers and adhesif it's relatively strong. But let's keep 385 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: in mind this is Florida. You've got high relative humidity. 386 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: You're placing it on bare skin, which means that they 387 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: were sweating. And I would think probably Reggie in particular, 388 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: because of his diabetes. Diabetics many times when they are stressed, 389 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: began to sweat profusely, and that may have led to 390 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: him being able to shed these bindings. But I think 391 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: probably the most chilling part of this is that the perpetrators, 392 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: when they were later interviewed, stated that both Reggie and 393 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 1: Carol when they opened that trunk and they found him 394 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: in the back of that car, they were holding on 395 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: to one another, so they had adjusted to the point 396 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: where they could at least embrace. One of the purps 397 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: actually said they were praying. Maybe they were praying that 398 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: they would be delivered from this, Maybe they were praying 399 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: for God's mercy at that moment in time, But this 400 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: I do know. Once that trunk was open, they took 401 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: this couple out of that car and they put them 402 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: into this hole that it had been dug two days 403 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: in advance, with the thought, with the thought that this 404 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: is how their lives were going to end. How did 405 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: their lives end? Joe? When you were buried alive? Do 406 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: you inhale dirt into your lungs and suffocate? Do you 407 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: are you unable to expand your lungs and suffocate? That's 408 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: two types of asphyxiation? There? Am I missing something? Joe? 409 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: Was there another type? I gotta tell you. When I 410 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: was reading over the testimony of the medical examiner in 411 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: this particular case and what his determination was, it really 412 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 1: struck me because I had never come across a case 413 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: like this. The forensic pathologists that did the autopsy on 414 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: Reggie and Carol's bodies actually came to the conclusion that 415 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 1: they had died of mechanical asphyxia. And let me kind 416 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: of break that down because it sounds, I don't know, 417 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: kind of bizarre when you begin to think about it, 418 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: you think of mechanism and that sort of thing, and 419 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: many times that's what it means. It means that you 420 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: know one one descriptor that's famously used is say someone 421 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: has a scarf and it's hanging over some type of 422 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: machinery that's operating, and they get pulled in by the 423 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: scarf and it essentially chokes them asphyxiates them. Right there, 424 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: that's mechanical, and that's that's a classic example of that. However, 425 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: you have this elderly couple that's actually placed into a 426 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: grave and then dirt is placed upon their body. So 427 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: think about the dirt being the mechanism here, and you've 428 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: got two factors that work here. So not only were 429 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: they mechanically asphyxiated, and this is more of what's referred 430 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: to as a compression asphyxia. That means when you begin 431 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: to have weight placed upon you where your chest can 432 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: no longer rise and fall, which you know if you're digging, 433 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: say for instance, they did dig a deep, deep hole. 434 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: That's a lot of dirt that you're going to put 435 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: on their bodies. It's going to compromise their ability for 436 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: their chest to rise and fall, to inhalate, to exulate, 437 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things, and then you're diminishing the 438 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: amount of oxygen that's in there. And to your point earlier, 439 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: one of the other factors involved in this case is 440 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: that when the forensic pathologists did the dissection and he 441 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: began to closely look at the airway of both Carol 442 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: and Reggie, not just the airway, but Jackie actually looked 443 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: in the lungs. One of the things he found were 444 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: particulate bits of soil, the same soil that you would 445 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: have found down there. And I can tell you what 446 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: that soul looks like. It's going to be very sandy. 447 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: It's going to be very very sandy. There might be 448 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: some loam mixed in with it. And that dirt that 449 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: was from down there that you commonly see in Florida, 450 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: those sorts of things that you walk upon when maybe 451 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: you go to the beach, go on a vacation with 452 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: your family. That's what they had within their airways, and 453 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: at the end, that's what actually wound up killing them 454 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: because they inhalated this dirt that was being piled on 455 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: top of them. So it's this kind of complex event 456 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: that goes on, and you couple that with all of 457 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: that natural disease process, you know, Carol's liver cancer and 458 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: hepatitis and her being jaunticed and all those things that 459 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: come along with that, and then of course Reggie's diabetes 460 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: and his inability to move around. He was also incontinent 461 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: as well, which sometimes happens obviously with age, but it 462 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: can happen with diabetic patients are in a greatly physically 463 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: compromised position. He's there, They're not receiving any kind of 464 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: care whatsoever. As a matter of fact, with every shovelful 465 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: of dirt, there's more and more harm, there's more and 466 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: more danger that is coming to rest upon them, to 467 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: the point where it was the position they were in 468 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: was just completely and totally incompatible with life, and they 469 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: succumb there in the grave, lying there next to each other. 470 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,719 Speaker 1: We've talked in the past a lot about asphyxia, and 471 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: we've talked about positional asphyxia. So is mechanical asphyxia and 472 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: positional asphyxia the same thing. No, they're not. And I'll 473 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: give you a great example of positional asphyxia. And this 474 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: is from my own personal experience working cases, and I've 475 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: had this happen a number of times. I say a 476 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: number is several times throughout my career. And it's kind 477 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: of a thread that runs through and people are not 478 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: aware of the effects that heroin has on somebody. It 479 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: really depress the respiratory system obviously, you know, you get 480 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: into this kind of dreamlike state. And I've had a 481 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: number of heroin addicts that have set there what they 482 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: call their works up on a sink, you know, where 483 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: they'll they'll render down their injectable down into a liquid form. 484 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: They'll draw it up after they've they've turned it off 485 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: on their arm and they're seated on a toilet seat. 486 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: They inject a heroine and in these cases I've worked, 487 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: the heroin addict after they have dosed themselves will actually 488 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: fall between the wall and the edge of the toilet 489 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: and in this compromise position that can't get up, and 490 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: this leads to that's a classic example of positional asphixia, 491 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: and there's any number of other things that can happen. 492 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: You'd be actually surprised how many people that are involved 493 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: in car accidents die as a result of kind of 494 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: a positional slash compression asphyxia. Many times you're in a 495 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: position where you're test can no longer rise and fall, 496 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: and it comes and it's not something that you can 497 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: absolutely say positively that this is in fact positional asphyxia 498 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: without having very strong evidence of it, any event of 499 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: a positional asphyxia. You have this evidence of this kind 500 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: of staring you in the face, where they're in such 501 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: a contracted position. That means their body is position in 502 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: such a manner which their chest can no longer rise 503 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: and fall and they can't get free of it. In Carol, 504 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: in Reggie's case, though this is the mechanical asphyxia, it 505 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: was a means to an end. If you think of 506 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: that dirt being piled upon them, them being compressed by 507 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: the dirt, them inhalating a dirt. This was as if 508 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: they had utilized this dirt, just like somebody would use 509 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: a firearm to kill them. How long would this couple 510 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: have suffered? Job I can say this, It would have 511 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: been an excruciating death. It would not have been quick. 512 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: It would have been they would have been gasping for air. 513 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: You know. I equated to you know, someone catching a 514 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: fish and bringing the fish up on the deck or 515 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: the dock and seeing you know, that fish gasping for air. 516 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: You can see their lips moving, their gills expanding, and 517 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: there's nothing there for them to breathe in, and they 518 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: would have been attempting to squeeze everybod of oxygen out 519 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: of that environment. Unfortunately, there was none to be had, 520 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: and so the first thing that would have happened is 521 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: I think more than likely they would have gone into 522 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: a real state of panic. Again, if they weren't shallow 523 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: breathing before, then they're certainly shallow breathing now, and that 524 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:47,959 Speaker 1: means that quick respirations, very very shallow. And then something 525 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: happens that's referred to as anoxia at that point in time, 526 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: where your brain goes into a deprived state of oxygen. 527 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: So you have this even further disorientation where they're in 528 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: this kind of dream like a milky state, if you will, 529 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: and they're going to lose consciousness of eventually. The key 530 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: here though is and I don't know that it's necessarily measurable. 531 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: You know, if you were to ask a forensic pathologist 532 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,879 Speaker 1: on the stand, you know, doctor, in your opinion, how 533 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: long in fact did this take? I think that that 534 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: the physician would probably state what the literature states, you 535 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: know that your brain can't you sustain life without oxygen 536 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: for any longer than you know, three or four minutes. 537 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: But it would not have been quick. It would not 538 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 1: have been as quick as, say, for instance, as they 539 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: had been executed with a pistol. Perhaps all four of 540 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: these perpetrators are now in jail for the murders of 541 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: Reggie and Carol Sumner. Just this past week, Alan Wade 542 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: was again sentenced, but he was taken off of death 543 00:34:54,600 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: row and sentenced to life imprisonment. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 544 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 1: and this is Body Backs.