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Speaker 1: We can trillions. I'm Joel Webber and I'm Eric belt Junas.

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Speaker 1: Got to see Eric, to see you two in person,

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Speaker 1: like the third time, I think since in pandemic days.

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Speaker 1: It's great, though I think it's more than that, but

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Speaker 1: who's counting. Uh So, there have been some headlines recently

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Speaker 1: and some e t F s that just launched, and

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Speaker 1: those headlines and these ETFs really fascinate me because we've

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Speaker 1: never talked about this before and it seems like a

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Speaker 1: great time to do. So, Yeah, a whole new category

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Speaker 1: has been born. We weren't sure it was going to happen,

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Speaker 1: but this is a category of ETFs that are linked

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Speaker 1: to single stocks, which is almost I think silly to

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Speaker 1: some people. For example, in e t F the tracks

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Speaker 1: uh Tesla to some degree either leveraged or inverse or

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Speaker 1: ETF tracks Nike or Google. Um. There are reasons for

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Speaker 1: it we'll get into, but the SEC has approved these,

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Speaker 1: not completely the way they are filed, but close enough

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Speaker 1: that I do believe we're going to see hundreds, if

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Speaker 1: not thousands of e t s because there's four thousand

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Speaker 1: stocks and there's many things you can do. And so

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Speaker 1: the first one was launched last week or a bunch

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Speaker 1: of them, and the one that I had a feeling

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Speaker 1: would be the biggest hit was the biggest hit Inverse

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Speaker 1: Tesla TSLQ. The volume one. It went from six million

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Speaker 1: day one twelve million day two. It's rare to get

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Speaker 1: twelve million that new, and it's rare to have volume grow.

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Speaker 1: Usually day one is a big splash and then it

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Speaker 1: goes down. That tells me this is going to be

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Speaker 1: a pretty big hit product. So once there's a hit,

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Speaker 1: that's only going to encourage more people to file. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: this is a really exciting and maybe an area that

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Speaker 1: really requires some explanation for someone out there going, why

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Speaker 1: do you need an e t F for a stock?

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Speaker 1: So joining us on this episode, we've got Matt Tuttle,

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Speaker 1: who's the managing director of Access Investments, one of the

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Speaker 1: companies that's begun putting out these single stock etts, as

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Speaker 1: well as Katie Greifield, reporter with Bloomberg News who's been

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Speaker 1: covering these launches, this time on Trilliance Single stock et s. Matt, Katie,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Trilliance. Thank you for having me. Matt. Let's

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Speaker 1: start with you, why does the world needs single stock ets?

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Speaker 1: The world definitely needs single stock ETF. So I've been

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Speaker 1: trading since the eighties, and you know, back in the day,

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Speaker 1: you'd always I wish this existed, I wish that existed,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it was never in a position to

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Speaker 1: actually make that happen. And and now I am. So

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Speaker 1: you know, I talked to retail investors on Twitter and

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Speaker 1: you know, in through email all the time, and you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a couple of things they really like to do.

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Speaker 1: They like to trade on margin, they like options, and

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Speaker 1: they typically are agnostic between being longer short a single name.

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Speaker 1: So what single stock ETFs do is it gives investors

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Speaker 1: a way to easily kind of express those options in

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Speaker 1: a nice package. So not everybody likes to trade options.

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Speaker 1: I mean I personally don't. It's kind of a pain

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Speaker 1: in the butt. Um. Not everyone likes to or can

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Speaker 1: access margin um, and not everybody likes to or can

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Speaker 1: go short. You can't short in an IRA retirement plan.

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Speaker 1: So it just gives investors another way if they've got

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Speaker 1: a bullish opinion or a bearish opinion on a stock,

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Speaker 1: to express that view. What were the hurdles to bring

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Speaker 1: to bring this to market? Because, as Eric mentioned, uh

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Speaker 1: SEC didn't totally go for this at the start. So

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Speaker 1: these are complex products obviously, and leverage and inverse ETFs.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we all know that they provide the return

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Speaker 1: in a single day. Once you start compounding the returns,

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Speaker 1: you know, what you end up getting, you know, may

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Speaker 1: not be exactly what you expect, and so there really

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Speaker 1: there is education, but there needs to be a lot

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Speaker 1: more education for investors on you know, if you hold

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Speaker 1: onto this for a longer period of time, you know

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Speaker 1: there could be issues. So you know, the SEC to

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Speaker 1: address that came out with their new Derivatives rule, which

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Speaker 1: you know expectedly is not designed with single asset ETFs

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Speaker 1: in mind. So you know, I think the biggest hurdle

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Speaker 1: that that we had there was just making sure that

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Speaker 1: these fit within the rules as they were designed. Um

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Speaker 1: let me jump in there, because when you filed, you

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Speaker 1: originally filed for also a two x tesla, which to

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Speaker 1: me is somewhat of the holy grail. I think that

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Speaker 1: anything around tesla, I think is going to sell. You

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Speaker 1: ended up coming out with a one point one x tesla,

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Speaker 1: which is just a little tiny dose of leverage. Mean

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Speaker 1: it's almost unnoticeable. And then but they allowed you to

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Speaker 1: come out with two x fiser and you know, my

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Speaker 1: colleague James Stafford looked at that and what he did

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Speaker 1: is he looked the volatility of the stocks, and if

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Speaker 1: you work in that leverage, you realize that it looked

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Speaker 1: like the SEC was looking at standard deviation and saying, well,

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Speaker 1: we're okay with two x visor because it's not that volatile,

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Speaker 1: but Tesla will't willing go a tiny bit of leverage.

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Speaker 1: Are they actually using volatility as a way way to

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Speaker 1: sort of regulate these things? So to an extent, they're

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Speaker 1: not looking specifically at standard deviation, but they've they've got

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Speaker 1: a calculation that we've got to fit these into. So

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Speaker 1: when we initially filed, we said, you know, we'll file

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Speaker 1: for two acts, you know, because that's the maximum we

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Speaker 1: know we can do, and then we'll go through the

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Speaker 1: process and see, you know kind of where we end up. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, without giving away the secret sauce, because I

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Speaker 1: don't know that other people have kind of figured this out.

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Speaker 1: You know, you've you've basically got to fit it within

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Speaker 1: those derivative rules and the more volatile stock. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Tesla has a standard deviation over four where I don't

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Speaker 1: remember what visor is off the top of my head,

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Speaker 1: but it's nowhere near for you know, the more volatile

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Speaker 1: the stock, the tougher it's going to be to kind

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Speaker 1: of fitted into that box. And again going back to

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Speaker 1: the rules aren't designed for a single asset. And so mean,

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Speaker 1: I've tweeted about these launches. Eric has tweet about these launches.

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Speaker 1: It's spurred a lot of pearl clutching on Twitter, like

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Speaker 1: just a lot of people saying, oh, this is the top,

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Speaker 1: even though it feels like maybe worth the bottom. But

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Speaker 1: in any case, one of the tweets that did catch

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Speaker 1: my eye, which was interesting, you know, you mentioned that

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Speaker 1: these e t f s, the inverse et f s

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Speaker 1: could be access for people who can't short otherwise too

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Speaker 1: short of stock express that bearsh view. And someone made

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Speaker 1: the point on Twitter that people might use this to

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Speaker 1: get around having to set up a margin account, like

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Speaker 1: maybe there's a reason why they're not able to short.

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Speaker 1: Oh sure, I mean, you know, margin is is one

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Speaker 1: big thing you know that went into this more on

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Speaker 1: the longside, but certainly on the short side as well.

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of times people don't like margin.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you can't I mean, I invest in in all

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Speaker 1: my own products, and those aren't margin able, So I mean,

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Speaker 1: I can't buy on margin unless I invest in other things,

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Speaker 1: So not everyone can do it. So yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's totally a way to get around that. Um, let

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Speaker 1: me just ask you what it holds. So if you

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Speaker 1: were to go into the access capital markets desk in

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Speaker 1: the portfolio design team at your office, just explain to

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Speaker 1: me what is in the holdings. Will use the inverse

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Speaker 1: Tesla E t F as an example, since that's the

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Speaker 1: biggest one Tesla Q and and also in addition to

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Speaker 1: what it holds, like how does this work exactly? What

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Speaker 1: are those people doing so and in the answer is

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Speaker 1: the same thing that they hold swaps. So we've got

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Speaker 1: counterparties that we go out to, and so in the

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Speaker 1: case of Tesla, we say, hey, we need a swap

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Speaker 1: that gives us, you know, basically looks and smells and

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Speaker 1: feels like we're short x amount of shares of Tesla,

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Speaker 1: and being a levertor and inverse CTF, we need to

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Speaker 1: rebalance that every single day because the moment Tesla or

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Speaker 1: anything opens for trading, we're out of balance. So we

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Speaker 1: got to get back into balance by the end of

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Speaker 1: the day. So every day we're calling up our counter

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Speaker 1: parties and we got spreadsheets that we said, you know,

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Speaker 1: all right, I need to short a hundred shares of Tesla.

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Speaker 1: Now I need two hundred. Now it's one fifty. And

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Speaker 1: we tell the counter parties at the end of the day, hey, look,

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Speaker 1: we need to short another hundred shares of Tesla. Now.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes the stock gets so bad it is expensive to

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Speaker 1: borrow too short. Is that borrow cost embedded in the

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Speaker 1: swap price or where? How's that work? Yeah, the borrow

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Speaker 1: costs gets embedded in the swap price. And and and

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Speaker 1: that's an important point. I mean, sometime some people on

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Speaker 1: Twitter have said, well, you know, if if we buy

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Speaker 1: the inverse, we don't pay the cost of shorting. You do.

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Speaker 1: But you know there's a chance that, in a very

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Speaker 1: good chance, we're getting better pricing on that than you

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Speaker 1: know you are in your schwab account. You know, Eric

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Speaker 1: tesla Q has an amazing backstory. It's been a cover

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Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Business Week. Actually, the the Twitter group that

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Speaker 1: basically assembled around that that cash tag and was very

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Speaker 1: vocal anti e Lawn, anti Tesla. And I'm curious, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're early on this launch. But how does this launch

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Speaker 1: rank in terms of all time great ETF introductions. It's

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Speaker 1: probably the best intro launched since bidd Oh I think.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's a couple other dicel ones, but to

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Speaker 1: go from six million to twelve again, that that's unusually.

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Speaker 1: The other one I'm thinking of as you vix when

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Speaker 1: they relaunched the t VIX and x I v under

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Speaker 1: new names. But I look back, even those were like

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Speaker 1: three million the first day and then maybe four the second,

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Speaker 1: but those have also built. It's what you want is

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Speaker 1: something that builds slowly. Reminds me of the movie office.

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Speaker 1: Space kind of didn't do that much of the box office,

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Speaker 1: but the rentals just kept creeping up over time because

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Speaker 1: people word of mouth. They were like, you've got to

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Speaker 1: watch this movie. That happens sometimes that's what you want.

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Speaker 1: That That is how you get a classic, That's how

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Speaker 1: you get volume. So to me, this is probably one

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Speaker 1: of the better launches of the last couple of years. Well, Matt,

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Speaker 1: to that end, you had this audience built in which

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Speaker 1: was already familiar with this idea, and then you had

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Speaker 1: this idea for the product, which came first the recognition

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Speaker 1: of the audience or the idea for the product, the

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Speaker 1: idea for the product. So I mean, you know, we

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Speaker 1: kind of we We did Stark back last year, then

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Speaker 1: we followed that up with Tark, and the idea was

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Speaker 1: to follow that up with with Tesla. We just felt

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Speaker 1: like all of those fit into a real nice bucket

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Speaker 1: and and appealed to a lot of the same type

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Speaker 1: of people. And so, like Eric said, I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is an entirely new category. As Eric would say, it's

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Speaker 1: a vanguard free zone. So if you look at the

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Speaker 1: the access uh single stock ETFs that are out there

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Speaker 1: so far, I think they charged a hundred fifteen basis

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Speaker 1: points each. Obviously there is a very long line for

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Speaker 1: other single stock ETFs to launch. I think there's over

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Speaker 1: eighty filings, which is just insane, with a bunch of

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Speaker 1: different issues too. Yes, exactly. So I mean does that

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Speaker 1: fee have to come down? Do you anticipate that you're

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Speaker 1: going to have to cut these fees? I mean anything

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Speaker 1: is possible. And I mean, number one, let's see if

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Speaker 1: these guys get their stuff to market. It's it's not easy, um,

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Speaker 1: And you know, and us going through it for the

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Speaker 1: first time, obviously it took longer than the seventy five

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Speaker 1: days to get it done. Um So we'll see whether

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Speaker 1: those come out, We'll see what they come out in pricing,

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Speaker 1: We'll see what they what names they come out with,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we'll we'll play that by year. But

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Speaker 1: I would assume if this turns into a real massive market,

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Speaker 1: then yeah, I mean you're gonna have v compression. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can't have a you know, one point one five spy.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I mean this is a very good

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Speaker 1: area if you're an asset manager because Vanguard will never

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Speaker 1: play here. And the thing is, if you get out

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Speaker 1: early and you get a liquid et f like if

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Speaker 1: if tests, if t s LQ gets, say, start starting

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Speaker 1: a DWO million like Sark does, even a copycat, is

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have pricing power for a long time. Um.

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Speaker 1: So that's why I do think you're gonna see so

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Speaker 1: many people launchers. Ben Johnson put it, the spaghetti cannon

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Speaker 1: is going to be probably like they're gonna we're gonna

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Speaker 1: break this spaghetti cannon. That's how much it's gonna get used.

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Speaker 1: And I will ask you, you know, we saw a

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Speaker 1: spaghetti cannon. Is that a thing I haven't I haven't

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Speaker 1: actually seen a spaghetti con cannon is like, is that similar? No,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a it's an imaginative thing that

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Speaker 1: Ben Johnson The Morning Star came up with, um and

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Speaker 1: Everybody's stolen. It's a great phrase which he just just

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Speaker 1: describes like when there's something hot and ETFs, you just

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Speaker 1: see so much spaghetti flying at the wall that it's

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Speaker 1: almost like a cannon. It's not just throwing, it's like

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Speaker 1: just just a giant water of spaghetti. And then you'll

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Speaker 1: have a lot of things that don't make it um.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I wanted to ask Matt though,

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Speaker 1: was about this new category. Obviously you'll have like leverage

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Speaker 1: and you'll have inverse on many stocks now. I also

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Speaker 1: saw filing just last week for yield chairs, which are

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Speaker 1: I believe, gonna do a follow a stock and then

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Speaker 1: do a cover call strategy on top of it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it seems like the sky's the limit. We're just basically

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Speaker 1: in like almost like a new country where people are

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Speaker 1: gonna set up shop and do all kinds of stuff.

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Speaker 1: How far can this go? I mean, you you hit

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Speaker 1: the nail on the head. I think there's all sorts

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Speaker 1: of different ways to slice and dice it. Um you know,

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Speaker 1: covered calls, puts, you know, all sorts of things with

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Speaker 1: different options, strategies. You know, I think at some point

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Speaker 1: you you kind of do run your course, and you

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Speaker 1: know there's only you know, there's only so much money

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Speaker 1: floating around and only so much interest, So you know,

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Speaker 1: I think it can get a little bit crazy. But

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Speaker 1: you know what we'll say. Yeah, you know you mentioned

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Speaker 1: Sark and target second ago, and I just want to

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Speaker 1: rewind and go back to that, because what did you

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Speaker 1: learn from introducing those that maybe informed tesla Q and

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Speaker 1: and wherever else you could go? So I mean, and

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Speaker 1: it really actually it goes back to so Go I mean,

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Speaker 1: so Goa was our first inverse ETF, and inverse ETFs,

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Speaker 1: like single stock ETFs, are not easy, and there's nobody

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Speaker 1: around to tell you, hey, this is how you construct

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Speaker 1: an inverse ETF. And obviously the players in the market

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Speaker 1: we're not willing to to share unfortunately. So with so Good,

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Speaker 1: we learned how to do an inverse ETF, which then

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Speaker 1: made Sark very easy. And then you know, Tark the

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Speaker 1: same thing. You know. The other the other part of

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Speaker 1: that too was being able to get swap counterparties, which,

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Speaker 1: since ARCA goes, is not easy like and not easy

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Speaker 1: as an understatement. So you know, we learned how to

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Speaker 1: do that. Um, I learned how to use Twitter. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm fifty three years old. A couple of years ago,

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Speaker 1: or maybe even a year ago, I didn't even know

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Speaker 1: what Twitter was. Uh so I learned how to do that,

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Speaker 1: which is good because the Twitter guys like this stuff.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, of all the times to introduce

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Speaker 1: a Tesla cue products with Twitter and Muskin, you know,

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Speaker 1: total fallout, it seems like a pretty good moment for that.

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Speaker 1: Timing was not bad. How much time do you spend

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Speaker 1: on Twitter now? It it depends. You know. It's good

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Speaker 1: that I've got a dog who likes to go on

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Speaker 1: really long walks, so I mean we could be out

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Speaker 1: for like an hour and a half and you know

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Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter then. Um. You know, during the day

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Speaker 1: when I have time, I do wake up way earlier

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Speaker 1: than I want to, so I tend to spend some

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Speaker 1: time on Twitter then and I dream in tweets. It's

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Speaker 1: not awful, You're all you do tweet a lot. Yeah, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: but in any case, we should talk about the SEC

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Speaker 1: because there's been some worried noises coming out of some

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Speaker 1: of the commissioners there. You had a commissioner Caroline Crenshaw.

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Speaker 1: She called for the agency to a top new rules

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Speaker 1: on single stock ETFs. Even Chair Ginsler said that the

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Speaker 1: products present a particular risk, and yet they launched. But

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Speaker 1: I'm curious if you're worried at all, even though you're

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Speaker 1: out the door. I mean, what could the backlash be here?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not necessary severially from from the standpoint

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Speaker 1: that you know, there are tons of LeVert and inverse

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Speaker 1: things that are out there. And again it comes down

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Speaker 1: to education. You know, like I said before, it's that

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Speaker 1: glide path, the compounding of returns that's going to be different.

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't think these present any danger in

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Speaker 1: any way, shape or form. There's no market risk and

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Speaker 1: you know, and and a lot of it seems kind

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Speaker 1: of disingenuous where you know, hey, these single stock and

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Speaker 1: inverse ETFs, you know that's risky. But like buying r

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Speaker 1: K in February of you know, two thousand twenty one

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Speaker 1: at the top that that's fine. You know, there there's

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of stuff out there in

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Speaker 1: the marketplace. That's that's extremely risky, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: just think it's an educational issue more than anything. Um.

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Speaker 1: So you have t SLQ and you've got SARK. Have

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Speaker 1: you had any feedback from either Elon or Cathy based

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Speaker 1: on the fact that you have these products going the

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Speaker 1: other direction? I know Ellen is in particular sensitive to

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Speaker 1: the shorts. Um Kathy. Also, you've got TARK, so you're

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Speaker 1: kind of almost building a little You're adding to the

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Speaker 1: ecosystem around that fund, which I argue is good because

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Speaker 1: it draws more volume in. But maybe she was there

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Speaker 1: any I guess between those two people, if you heard

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Speaker 1: anything from them on either of these So Ellen, no, Um, Kathy.

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Speaker 1: I can't talk about um. But one interesting thing, Tark

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Speaker 1: actually helps her from the standpoint of every dollar we

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Speaker 1: get into Tark eventually goes back to her because we've

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Speaker 1: got to go buy a swap and then the counterparty

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Speaker 1: has to hedge themselves by buying ARC, so you know

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Speaker 1: that that's actually a net positive for them. Somebody had

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Speaker 1: this idea with Tark that Kathy should just buy Tark,

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Speaker 1: which would with then you'd have to go out and

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Speaker 1: buy shares of ARC, which would then buy more Tark

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Speaker 1: and create this upward spiral in the shares of arc

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Speaker 1: is that am My is my head just not smart

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Speaker 1: enough to understand why that would or wouldn't work. I

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Speaker 1: mean I saw that in my brain hurt trying to

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Speaker 1: kind of figure that out. You know, so I I,

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's gonna happen. Then. Now the best

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Speaker 1: thing I saw someone on Twitter took her Holdings thing

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Speaker 1: that she sends out every day and mocked it up

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Speaker 1: and had a sark and it looked totally real. And

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Speaker 1: I saw that on Twitter and I was like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, no, that's fake. But it threw me for

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Speaker 1: a second. Okay, so we're ultimately talking about some stuff

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Speaker 1: here that that it does get a little wonky. And

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Speaker 1: you know, Eric has a traffic light system that he's

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Speaker 1: developed at Bloomberg Intelligence to sort of help investors make

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Speaker 1: sense of where E T F s of fall. And

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Speaker 1: you know, there's an amazing episode of Trillions that we

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Speaker 1: we recorded with our dads once upon a time, and um,

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Speaker 1: if you listen to that, you'll learn that you know,

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Speaker 1: Eric's dad all in on on lever and and levered oil,

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Speaker 1: and you know ended up juggling some chainsaws that probably

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Speaker 1: hurt himself. And so Eric, I'm wondering how how red

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Speaker 1: does b I rank these products? So these would actually

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Speaker 1: be yellow. Um we haven't ranked TSLQ do every quarter,

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Speaker 1: but um, I know SARK would be a yellow. If

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Speaker 1: you go one time inverse, we don't find that too

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Speaker 1: too awful, too dangerous. It's when you go to three

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Speaker 1: x anything that's when the daily resetting of the leverage

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Speaker 1: can really hurt your daily inverse. Like if you look

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Speaker 1: at s H which is the one time in verse SMP,

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Speaker 1: you largely get the opposite the SMP medium term as well.

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Speaker 1: It's not perfect, but it's not like a three X

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Speaker 1: where you could actually get the call right. Because of

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Speaker 1: some volatility, you actually lose money. That's where they're red.

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Speaker 1: So we would do yellow. If they come out with

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Speaker 1: two X TESLA, that would be read. Anytime you go

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Speaker 1: to X anything, we read, so right now you're yellow

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Speaker 1: unless I can find something else. Um Like if you

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Speaker 1: roll futures or the taxes weird, it might bump them

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Speaker 1: up to a red. But that's how we look at it.

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Speaker 1: So that makes sense. So what would your what are

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Speaker 1: you gonna tell your dad. When your dad calls you

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Speaker 1: about this product, all in, tell him, I'm gonna I'm

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Speaker 1: going to tell him stick to your big oil stocks.

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Speaker 1: He likes big oil companies and a couple like he

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Speaker 1: likes a T and T for some reason. Like just

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Speaker 1: stick to those. It's fine. Your your dad actually called

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Speaker 1: me and I told him to go all in. My

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Speaker 1: dad bet on the British Open like, I mean, he's like, so,

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Speaker 1: I was like, you have enough going on? Okay, just

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Speaker 1: you know he lost though he had Royal Michael Royan.

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Speaker 1: He almost wanted. I mean it was brutal. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: do have a question sort of. You know, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about how crazy and wild the space could become. But

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Speaker 1: could you ever just see a single stock E t

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Speaker 1: F that isn't leveraged or inverse that literally just holds

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Speaker 1: the stock or is that actually just pointless? To me?

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Speaker 1: That would be pointless. I can't imagine that that anyone

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Speaker 1: want to do it or or even try it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think, um, that's what they call a bad idea. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I will say to the launch it, give it a shot,

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Speaker 1: or just an E t F to try spy just

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Speaker 1: yeah we're spy. Yeah, Well, look the inverse ones make

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Speaker 1: a ton of sense. I remember I've received multiple people

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Speaker 1: over the past couple of years that have said, can

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Speaker 1: you tell the issuers to launch an SMP fix Tesla

400
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Speaker 1: just because they just they want to hedge out Elon's

401
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Speaker 1: the Elon risk, you know, of whatever he does. And

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Speaker 1: I I think that's part of a of a really

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Speaker 1: understandable use case is either a head of earnings or

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Speaker 1: if there's a company where you're just worried about the

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Speaker 1: CEO or a change, you could just quickly buy this

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Speaker 1: and you are hedged for a month or a week

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Speaker 1: or a year. Um. I think that's probably the most

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Speaker 1: accurate use case. I think as it gets volume, you

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Speaker 1: might see some institutional usage, especially if there's options around this.

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming you're gonna there's gonna be options. There are

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Speaker 1: options already. Wow, Okay, yeah, I mean that was amazing

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Speaker 1: actually that we got that that quickly. You know, this

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Speaker 1: all makes me wonder, you know, if you could rewind

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Speaker 1: the clock. Tesla obviously over time is performed and exceedingly well.

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Speaker 1: If or wherever a bitcoin E t F you could

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Speaker 1: kind of imagine this, is there any way that you

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Speaker 1: could leverage the upside here too, and like compound it

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Speaker 1: so that you're not shorting it with this, but like

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Speaker 1: you know, get the upside effect of of a stock

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Speaker 1: that you're really bullish on for the long term. What

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Speaker 1: would that look like? So not within the derivative rules

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Speaker 1: where we're working on some more advanced ideas for you know,

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Speaker 1: being able to maybe do it two x tesla um.

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Speaker 1: It's it's unlikely the idea will be well received, but

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Speaker 1: it's something we might we might try. But you know,

426
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 1: the way the current derivative rules are, it's going to

427
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 1: be very hard. You're gonna lock it down to that

428
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 1: single day well, but it's also going to be very

429
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 1: hard to get leverage on something that in and of

430
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 1: itself is very volatile. Speaking of advanced ideas, so I

431
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 1: was on med Favors podcast, great podcast, by the way,

432
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 1: listen to it. We had a great discussion. At the end,

433
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 1: he's like, Hey, what are some et F ideas that

434
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: aren't in the market that you think should be. So

435
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 1: I gave him to um. One is the Congressional stock Tracker,

436
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 1: or if you want to be specific, just Nancy portfolio Man,

437
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,640
Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi's portfolio. That nance is what I would think

438
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: that would fly off the shelves. I think, but it

439
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 1: I have looked at that and I'm not I'm not sure.

440
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,479
Speaker 1: I mean, it may fly off the shelves, but from

441
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 1: an investment standpoint, I'm not sure it would work. Because

442
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 1: so the problem is it's not Nancy. Because the problem

443
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: with launching a product around Nancy is what happens when

444
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 1: she retires. Well, that's why I thought, well, maybe you

445
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,640
Speaker 1: do Congressional stock tracker, because there's actually a couple better

446
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 1: than her. Somehow. There's this one guy from like Illinois.

447
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 1: There's like service, there's a service that tracks it, and

448
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 1: I've talked to the guy who does it, and he

449
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: keeps telling me the performances really isn't that good. That

450
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 1: that's the problem. I mean, it's something that I have

451
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: looked at a lot and will continue to look at.

452
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 1: But if the performance isn't that good, it's it's unfortunate.

453
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: I had another one I went over with MEB, which

454
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: was the inverse Jim Kramer E t F, which I

455
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: think would be called the Same Money E t F.

456
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: That way, you don't deal with any like copyright issues

457
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: with his show, and the ticker would be say any

458
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: and I he is wrong a lot, obviously, but he's

459
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: wrong big a couple of times a year. And like

460
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: like coin based to four hundred, if you would shorted

461
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: that man that that's like a a monster performance and

462
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 1: all you need is a couple of those bad boys

463
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: to power the e. T F and MEB said that

464
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: seems like something Tuttle would launch. I feel like Matt

465
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 1: might want this sounds perfect for you. Yeah, it would

466
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: be perfect for me. Watch this space potentially, watch this

467
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 1: space potentially. Okay, excellent, That's that's good. I like that. Um,

468
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 1: you know, as we kind of wind up here matter,

469
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 1: I'm curious, you know, to be a short it takes

470
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 1: a special stomach, I think, right, and I'm wondering, like,

471
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, how are you wired? And like, what what's

472
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: your outlook in the world, because effectively it requires rooting

473
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: against capitalism sometimes and or or that I've been accused of.

474
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: That would be how a lot of investors put it, right,

475
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: So so I'm curious, how do you how do you

476
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: wake up in the morning and and feel about that criticism? Well,

477
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: so remember we have both sides, and so you know,

478
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: I'm not well, I am a bear right now, just

479
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: because the market stinks, and yeah, I think we get

480
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: another leg down um and I think they're going to

481
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 1: be some great shorting opportunities to come. But really, what

482
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: I am, what I believe in, is you've got to

483
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: be agnostic between long and short. I'm not a fan

484
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 1: of Hey, be a long term investor, just buy a

485
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 1: bunch of this stuff. I mean, you know, again, one

486
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: of the things being out on Twitter is I see

487
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: how people are just getting killed, and a lot of

488
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: the Twitter guys have started to get it, and they're

489
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 1: not buying the dips anymore. They're shorting the rip us

490
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: and and you know, maybe they're recovering. But you know,

491
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: I just think you've got to be agnostic between the

492
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: long and the short side. And I wake up every

493
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 1: morning with absolutely no bias. I look at what the

494
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: market's telling me, and that's what I think that day.

495
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: As it feel to launch some of these products in

496
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 1: this cycle, I mean, you couldn't have drawn this up

497
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 1: any better. It feels like well, and you know, and

498
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 1: a lot of that was was by design. I mean,

499
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: we were one of the big reasons we launched SARK

500
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: is just looking at the macro environment saying, you know,

501
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: we're due and the FEDS talking about raising interest you know,

502
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: at that point, I don't think it was a definite,

503
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: but they were talking about it and just knowing what

504
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 1: happens to those stocks, you know, and not launching Tark

505
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: at the same time we launched Sark because having a

506
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: feeling if we did that, Tark wouldn't have done so well.

507
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 1: So a lot of that's by design. But yeah, the

508
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: market is his. His has played out pretty well for me. Okay,

509
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: question We asked at the end of every trillions, matt

510
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: favorite e t F ticker other than your own, So

511
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: that would have to be me because when I saw

512
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: them file for that, it pissed me off that I

513
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: didn't come up with that idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's

514
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: if you look at all these hundred and fifty issuers, right,

515
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: but there's little like little corners where there's a couple

516
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: that are kind of the similar, spiritually similar, Roundhill, Tuttele

517
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: and maybe a little global X. But yeah, I could

518
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: see that. What about meta Q would you get there?

519
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: You're talking about launching or short? Facebook? Oh short, Yeah,

520
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: it's so yeah. I mean I think what it's definitely

521
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: going to be the future of kind of the single

522
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: stock is what we saw in Tesla, where it's gonna

523
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: be you know, kind of these you know, stocks that

524
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: have larger than life personalities. So you know, one of

525
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: the big things I think about short Tesla is is

526
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: Elon Muss and so yeah, Meta's got the exactly. So

527
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: I think, you know, these companies that have CEOs that

528
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: are out there, I think those are gonna be interesting products.

529
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: The the thing that gives me pause about you know,

530
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: and I can't call him that, I've got to call

531
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: him Facebook a short Facebook, is that there are other

532
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: products and you know, there's short fang Um, you know,

533
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: and in there's some correlation to the nasdak. What I

534
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: loved about Tesla is it's not correlated to anything. By

535
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: the way, do all your tickers like ending Q that

536
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: are inverse I don't remember off the top of my head.

537
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: The way we did it, though, is because of Bloomberg,

538
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: Because if you type in TSL into Bloomberg, you might

539
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: and you're looking for Tesla, you might actually get t SLQ.

540
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: I also think you well, just while we're on this,

541
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: if you put Q, I would put Q at the

542
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: end of every inverse one and then people will just

543
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: know met Q night q I just coming right out

544
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: of me. Yeah right, send me a bill. I think

545
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,479
Speaker 1: some of the problems you have tour if those stickers

546
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: are reserved, right, so you don't know imagine how it

547
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: wasn't reserved. So we went and we grabbed it. Wow.

548
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: Even Mike Nudo didn't have it. He has a lot.

549
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: Matt Katie, thanks for joining us on Trillions. Thanks, thank you.

550
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Trillions until next time. You can

551
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, Spotify,

552
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: and wherever else you like to listen. We'd love to

553
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm at Joel Webber Show.

554
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: He's at Eric Fultuness. This episode of Trillions was produced

555
00:29:46,560 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: by Stacy Wong Spike the Fact