1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Gradios How Stuff Works. Hello, everyone, 5 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: welcome to the pre show introduction. Yeah, the sort of 6 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: the the lobby or the foyer to the actual show. Yes, 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: I'm glad we have that door opening, the you know, 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: the beginning, the ding dong doorbell, just lets you know 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: you're walking into the four you now, the proper worlds doorbell, 10 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: not the ding dong ding You six there for a second. Yeah, 11 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: it's true, it's true. The three of us recently went 12 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: to New York City, just like you've heard about the 13 00:00:53,520 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: salsa commercials, and we did an episode on real life covens. Yeah, 14 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: looking at the history of really what a which is 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: what it you know, what it is in popular culture, 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: How it's how the concept has been viewed over the centuries, 17 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: as well as what what an actual group um um, 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: people who would be who would consider themselves to be, 19 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: which is how they functioned together. Yeah, and this was 20 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: something we were asked to do um at our home 21 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: offices at I Heart Media headquarters in Midtown, New York. 22 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: And it was a pretty tight little affair. I think 23 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: we did about thirty five minutes on the subject and 24 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: then we're out to light bites and cocktails and schmoozery. 25 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: And it was a very nice evening. And we had 26 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: a lovely intro by a friend of the show, Comal Burne, 27 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: which you will not hear, but um it was. It 28 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: was filthy. It was filthy but glowing. Yeah. Yeah, like 29 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: Bob Saget stand up set. Uh. Yeah, we were. We 30 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: were very excited about this. We wanted to share it 31 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: with you. We also want you to know that we 32 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: did this, of course, right before Halloween. So here is 33 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: hyping up the Halloween that was past. So travel back 34 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: there with us. Uh, and let us determine between fiction 35 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: and fact, which which is the most accurate? Yes, and 36 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: Ben is right, Your your calendars are correct. It is 37 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: not Halloween. But but let's let's have some how about 38 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: some early nostalgia for Halloween. I can't wait without further ado. 39 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: Here we go. Hello, welcome back to the show. My 40 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: name is Matt, my name is Noel. They call me Ben. 41 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: That's our super producer, Paul mission controlled dec and on 42 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: the figure of ones and two's give it up for him. 43 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: But most importantly, you are here. You are you, and 44 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know. 45 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: Live at I Heart headquarters here in New York. So 46 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: give it up for yourself. Yes, yeah, we are in 47 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: fact recording this. This will be a real episode of 48 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: the show. So you are part of podcast history, or 49 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: at least part of our podcast feed. Right, So you're 50 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: sort of you're all co host with us tonight, and 51 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: we're standing a very surreal place that most of you 52 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: just think is normal now but it most certainly is not. 53 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: And there's like a hologram in the hallway. They change 54 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: the lights, there's smoke. That's a smoke machine in the 55 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: conference room that we've been posted up at lasers. It's bonkers, 56 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: and we almost just stayed and played with that. Uh 57 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: this it's true. As you're hearing this out there in 58 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: podcast lands, it is almost Halloween, one of the very 59 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 1: most wonderful times of the year according to us, at least, 60 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: you know, we've got a cavalcade of potential monsters that 61 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: are going to be strolling the streets. We think of vampires, right, 62 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: we think of werewolves and of course we think of, 63 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: which is now modern science has pretty much conclusively proven 64 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: that vampires and werewolves didn't exist, at least in the 65 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: way that we popularly think about them or the way 66 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: we imagine them and portray them. However, which is are 67 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: a little bit different. It's true. So what is this 68 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: stereotip coal kind of type of which that we think of? 69 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: Where does it come from? And most importantly, are any 70 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: of those strange stories actually true? So we have to 71 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: start addressing that question the way we always start addressing 72 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: any question, which is which is sorry, which is with 73 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: the facts. So here are the facts. It's fair to 74 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: say that we're all pretty familiar with at least the 75 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: stereotype of the Western European witch, right, we know the 76 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: traditional witch and filmed fiction folklore. They'll typically be a woman, 77 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: they're often older. They've got for some reason, a wide 78 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: brimmed pointy hat. Yeah, they might have warts, are like 79 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: weird green skin like in the Wizard of Oz or 80 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: or some kind of at least jaun disappearance or whatever. 81 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: And they've got talent like nails. Uh. They dress very 82 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: goth dark clothing. Um, they have wicked cackles and after all, 83 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: that they might fly through the sky, usually with the 84 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: aid of some sort of household um appliance, like a 85 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: like a broom or a mortar and pestel, or to 86 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: modernize it, maybe a vacuum cleaner. So, I don't know, 87 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: says a bust A lot. And they also a lot 88 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: of times we'll have a demonic sidekick called a familiar, 89 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: which is, you know, a rat and an owl or 90 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: something to that effect, maybe a cat. Yeah, we should 91 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: note the stereotype of familiars in Europe, uh came about 92 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: before Europeans knew what chihuahuas are. Those are the most 93 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: demonic of household pets. I'm sorry, I wait, some enemies. Yeah, 94 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: I think they look at like evil little blueberry muffins 95 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: with their weird, dead black eyes. It's it's absolutely shivering. 96 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: It's a different, it's a different. But okay, so we're talking. 97 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: So that's a witch singular individual. But what happens when 98 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: we get to the idea of a group of witches? Yeah? Yeah, 99 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: So according to these stories, very seldom would you see 100 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: a witch who was acting alone. A lot of times 101 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: you would see them colluding and conspiring with like minded 102 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: other practitioners of sorcery and these things that were called 103 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: and are called covens, at least within the popular culture. 104 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: And these were secretive groups that would meet together to 105 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: you know, worship a certain deity or an evil entity 106 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: or um and a lot of times try and make 107 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: the infernal powers that exist within that realm happened on 108 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: the mortal plane. And as a secretive groups tend to do, 109 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: they would meet in secretive places like old standing stones 110 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: in the woods, cemeteries, ancient sites outside of town, abandoned buildings, 111 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: and sellers uh and uh. At coven's, witches were engaged 112 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: in perverse mockery's or parodies of religious rights, Christian rights specifically. 113 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:38,559 Speaker 1: The most famous coven um right, was something that's called 114 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: the Black Mass. Yeah, yeah, come on, yeah, it all 115 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: sounds scary. And as we're going through here, we're gonna 116 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: we're kind of weaving this tail right of what of 117 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: what this stuff was like or what the way we 118 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: think about it. So we're getting into a tale now 119 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: that's not for the faint of heart. True. Oh yeah, 120 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: we should have said that at the top. But these 121 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: are adults. I think we're gonna we can handle this together. Okay. 122 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: So the descriptions of black masses. This was a popular 123 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: scary news story of the day, right, And we have 124 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: found genuine descriptions, or what purport to be genuine descriptions 125 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: of a black mass. One in particular that spoke to 126 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: us was from a book written in fifine seven. It 127 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: was called, in a burst of creativity, the Antichrist. It 128 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: was written by a guy named Floramond Day Raymond. And yeah, 129 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: and let's names were just better back then. And let's 130 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: just let's set the stage. Uh there, there's a tale 131 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: of a woman who is going to potentially be a witch, right, 132 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: she's she's in the recruitment process, kind of like that 133 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: guy at the beginning of Lost Boys. And so she 134 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: has taken to a field out in the wild, and 135 00:07:55,400 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: in d Raymond's account, a mysterious specifically a talent man. 136 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,119 Speaker 1: Drew draws this ring with a rada Holly, he reads 137 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: a spell from a black book, and the whole the 138 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: whole description, by the way, just harps on the fact 139 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: that this guy was Italian. Come on, and it's oddly specific. 140 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: And I quote. Thereupon appeared a large, haunted goat, all black, 141 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: accompanied by two women as well as a man dressed 142 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: as a priest. The goat asked who this girl was, 143 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: and when the Italian man Weird replied that he had 144 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: brought her to be his, the goat made him make 145 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: the sign of the cross with his left hand. That's right, um, 146 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: And then he commanded all of them to come and 147 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: greet him, which they immediately did. And another odd detail, 148 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: kissing his his rear, his his haunches, his his backside. Okay, 149 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 1: here's where it gets row. Remember I am reading a quotation. Okay, 150 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: here we go, we can do this quote. The goat 151 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: had a lighted black candle between its two horns, from 152 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: which the others lit their own candles. The goat took 153 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: the woman aside, laid her in the woods, and carnally 154 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: knew her. What is that? I don't understand. We're just 155 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: gonna breeze. We're gonna keep going here, to which she 156 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: took an extreme displeasure. Okay, obviously suffered much pain. God, 157 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: this is horrible, and felt his seed as cold as ice. 158 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: Why is it cold? I don't know. It's infernal powers. 159 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: I don't understand why it's the way it's icy. Well, 160 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: maybe because this is like pre Dante's inferno. Okay, but 161 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: that wasn't the culmination of the party. After that, all 162 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: the witches began to dance in circles, their backs turned 163 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: to one another. The person performing the service was clothed 164 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: in a black robe, but he didn't have a cross. 165 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: He would raise I still don't understand this part. He 166 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: would raise like a round slice of turnip and it 167 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: would be died black. They would use that instead of 168 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: the host. And then when he had it at elevation, 169 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: he would scream out, Master, help us. And they put 170 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: water in the change instead of wine to make holy water. 171 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: They had somehow trained this goat to urinate in a 172 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: hole in the ground. And honestly, out of that whole description, 173 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: the turnip is the most confusing part to me. I 174 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: have a theory a turn up is like a very 175 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: pure kind of white, as the driven snow vegetable, and 176 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,599 Speaker 1: when you diet black, it's sort of like a putrification 177 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: of purity. I wonder if they just didn't have a budget, 178 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, like if they just found a turn up. 179 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: So in this group, these folks would perform these acts 180 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: of witchcraft, and everyone gave a story as to how 181 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: the things they were doing were aiding in the infernal 182 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: causes of hell. Right, this is very important. Yeah, and 183 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: supposedly they were doing this at least twice a week, 184 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: uh and with at least sixty other people gathered together. 185 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: So imagine what we just described. Imagine doing that twice 186 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: a week. It's like Wednesdays and Fridays. A serious commitment 187 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: of a building community is really important though, you know, 188 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: well yeah, but it also it's going to get into 189 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: later like why these why these descriptions are you know 190 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: there there are a lot of issues with them, so 191 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: let's let's just continue going. You can't deny that it's 192 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: spooky stuff though, But but the idea is if you 193 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: were imagine you're in the fift hundreds and you've read 194 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: an account like that, and maybe perhaps you believe that 195 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: some of this could be true. If even a small 196 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: portion of the stuff we just described was true, you know, 197 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: which is conspiring and doing these evil things, then European 198 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: Christianity as it stood as a as an institution was 199 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: basically in deep trouble. And what what could the righteous 200 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: and upstanding citizens, the institutions, the governments that were meant 201 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: to protect those citizens, what could they do to stand 202 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: against some something so insidious and hellish as this. Well, 203 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: nowadays we like to say, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition, right, 204 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: it's not nerds anybody, it's just But back in the day, 205 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 1: the thing is, the Inquisition, especially the Spanish one, was 206 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: very much expected because they were real pills. These were 207 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: dangerous dudes who saw themselves, at least ostensibly as agents 208 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: of the divine and they thought their ultimate goal was 209 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: not just a root out wickedness, but to save souls. 210 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: And if a few bodies had to be broken or 211 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: a few people had to be tortured for the greater good. Yeah, Well, 212 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: like russ Cole says in True Detective, sometimes you need 213 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: bad men to keep the other bad men from the door. 214 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: So how how did these inquisitions work? Right? So, contrary 215 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: to popular belief, the Inquisition wasn't just created to hunt 216 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: down witches. It was much broader than that. Beginning in 217 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: the twelfth century, the Catholic Church set up the Office 218 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: of the Inquisition to punish anyone that was even remotely 219 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: speaking out against Catholicism um and and they saw it 220 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: as heresy, which was literally any religion or belief system 221 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: that was not uh Catholicism. Yeah, so, so they weren't 222 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 1: just hunting witches. That's not what it was about. They 223 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:57,119 Speaker 1: were also persecuting, torturing, and murdering people of other faiths, Muslims, 224 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: people of Jewish faith. They were It was the worst manifestation, 225 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: or let's say, the worst manifestation of the Inquisition occurred 226 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: when the Spanish Inquisition executed over thirty two thousand people 227 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: over the course of two d years. I'm not a 228 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: math scholar or anything, but those are those numbers are troubling, 229 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: I would say, I mean, so, yeah, they were very 230 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: much expected, you know what I mean? And we also 231 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: see all sorts of allegations like what so, no, what 232 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: were they actually looking for. They were looking for things 233 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: like well poisonings, poisonings of of the well, which I 234 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: think is as an emo band, which is a great name. 235 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: Um influencing the weather for nefarious purposes, because that was 236 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: a big deal. I would, you know, wipe out people's crops. 237 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: You blamed the witches, right, and there wasn't any meteorology, 238 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: so why not blame a witch? Also practicing any sort 239 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: of thing that could be remotely considered magic, even innocuous magic, 240 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: even early medical science, like healing people with herbs that 241 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: would get you hanged, or making prophecies, engaging in any 242 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: kind of thing that looked like a ritual that also 243 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: didn't look super catholic. Oh I forgot my favorite. There 244 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: was this big thing about people transforming dudes into horses 245 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: and riding them around at night. It was like as 246 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: like a punishment. Yeah, that sounds so much fun. Okay, alright, anyway, Um, 247 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: they will also be accused of seducing other members of 248 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: their community. They were accused of messing with livestock, making 249 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: cows milk go bad, or or just turn them inside 250 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: out like the aliens. It's just bad milk. Yeah, yeah. 251 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: Or they would just out and out kill them. They 252 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: would curse people. Sometimes they'd be accused of murdering and 253 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: assassinating people. Um they were, they were. They were accused 254 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: of all kinds of things. Okay, okay, So magic aside, 255 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: what whatever you may believe. Um, did anyone actually do 256 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: any of these absolutely bonkers things that we've we've just 257 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: laid out. Here's where it gets crazy. So yes, yes, 258 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: sort of we're not saying magic works, but there were 259 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: real people genuinely doing at least some of the stuff 260 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: that witches were accused of doing. The problem is the 261 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: people accused of witchcraft and on these dastardly things. These 262 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: people generally just fell into like a few very much 263 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: non evil witch necroom answer categories. They were like midwives, 264 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: traditional healers. I mean, if you think, not to get 265 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: to topical, but if you think that healthcare stinks nowadays, 266 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: thank your lucky stars you were not alive during the 267 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: Middle Ages. It was terrible. Infections ran rampant. Things that 268 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: can be cured with a pill nowadays could be a 269 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: death sentence. Back then, infant mortality was cartoonishly high, and 270 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: many women also died in the process of Childbirth was 271 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: a dangerous, dangerous time. So let's just imagine that you're 272 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: a grieving spouse UM or a parent who has recently 273 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: lost a loved one in childbirth. You know that you're 274 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: a good Christian um spiritually speaking, God has no reason 275 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: to to smite you or or your loved ones. Right. Um, 276 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: So someone must have put their proverbial finger on the 277 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: proverbial scale, flipping it in a very tragic direction. Right. 278 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: So what does that all mean? Well, it means that 279 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: your immediate suspect is the midwife, right, because she's already 280 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: sort of on the fringes of society. As you mentioned earlier, 281 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: she is a practitioner of these cures that involve herbs 282 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: and some of these more esoteric remedies. Right. So if 283 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: she has the ability to use things to heal, surely 284 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: she must also have the ability to use these things 285 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: to kill. Yeah. So we found something written by Lee Whaley. 286 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: She wrote Women and the Practice of Medical Care in 287 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: Early Modern Europe, And I'm just gonna read a quote 288 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: from that to you, guys. Um It says, during the Renaissance, 289 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: a number of strategies were taken to eliminate women and 290 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: other popular healers from the medical profession. Uh. And this 291 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: was the period when medicine and science lost their spiritual dimensions. Uh, 292 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: So healers as healers magicians and wishes wishes lost their 293 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: claim to manipulate the spiritual forces of the world. So 294 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: now this is important, right, that that idea that the 295 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: spiritual and medicine just were completely divorced from one another, 296 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: and no longer can the herbs or anything make me 297 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: feel better. It has to be something that a doctor 298 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: tells me and here's why that's important. The exclusion took 299 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: two paths. One the new requirement for people practicing medicine 300 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: to have a license. And here's the catch. If you 301 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: were a woman, you couldn't get the license. It was 302 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: almost like they were purposefully or they was as though 303 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: they were purposefully creating turning it into a male dominated 304 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: so much misogyny wrapped up in all of this stuff 305 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: and in the middle Age. Yeah, because because women couldn't 306 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 1: go to university to get the training necessary to get 307 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: that license, so then therefore they cannot work in that field. 308 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: And the other thing here is that if there is 309 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: a traditional healer, you could literally just say, oh, well, 310 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: well that's a witch. Yeah it was. It sounds silly nowadays, 311 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: but if you had a problem with someone, you could 312 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: just accuse them of being a witch. That that flew 313 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: like people believed it. Calum a witch. Then you just 314 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: have things, and you have like folks like sears or 315 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: other practitioners of fortune telling or the like that had 316 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: a strong connection to the other side, right, people like 317 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: um you You researched this matt Ursula south Hile, also 318 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: known as mother shipped in and she was believed by 319 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: many of her contemporaries in the seventeenth century in England 320 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: to be a witch because of her belief that she 321 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: could foresee the future things like executions, fires, and plagues. 322 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: She actually uh predicted or foretold rather that the end 323 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 1: of the world would come in eighteen eighty one, and 324 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: she also supposedly predicted that the internet would be a thing. 325 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: Ever predicts the internet except al Gore kind of did 326 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: that well in the seventeenth century. She was talking about 327 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: how one day soon information will just be in the ether, 328 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: will be everywhere, which is it's WiFi absolutely whatever cloud. 329 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: So luckily she was not persecuted in the same way 330 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: that many women of her ilk were. Um, she was 331 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: never tortured, she was not killed, and thankfully the end 332 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: also did not comment eight one, so she may have 333 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: been off the mark on that particularly. Also like side 334 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: note though, uh, how many people predict the end of 335 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: the world every year? Like does anybody else have an 336 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: end of the world fatigue? You know, Like I'm a 337 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: nineties baby and I can't recall a year that wasn't 338 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: supposed to be the last. I'm ready for it to 339 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: happen at this point. Sorry, we'll finish the show, we'll 340 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: finish this. She genuinely thought it was gonna be December twelve, 341 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: I think, or what was it, two thousand twelve. Joe 342 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: Rogan had a show that night. I thought it was 343 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: gonna be over. He's a witch bro. So other people 344 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: would be as we mentioned before, uh, doctors, medical practitioners 345 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: of some sort, but also people who were practicing not 346 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: just the non Christian religion, but a non Catholic religion. 347 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: Because we have to face it. Despite the best efforts 348 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 1: of the Church at the time, everybody knew Christianity was 349 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: far from the first religion on the block, and Catholic 350 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: churches had sought to subvert, supplant, and suppress pre existing 351 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: belief systems. But when you have a tradition and it's 352 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: deeply rooted, people are going to continue to practice it 353 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: to the best of their abilities. So they'll just go underground. 354 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: And these weren't evil beliefs by any means. These are 355 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: things like ancestor worship, animus beliefs, polytheism, and so on. 356 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: And because the Church, because that clashed with social control, 357 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: they conflated all of these practices with things like sorcery, necromancy, etcetera. 358 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: And then you have the category of folks with legitimate 359 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: mental illness. Mental illness or what is today referred to 360 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 1: as a neuro atypical behavior um existed during that time 361 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: as well, of course, and in some cases folks with 362 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: mental illness or cognitive conditions might have actually been considered 363 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: blessed by God are capable of receiving visions from on high. 364 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone's seen Midsummer, but one of 365 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: the characters that sort of is the village He here 366 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: is someone that clearly has a condition of this sort um. 367 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: But then it would there would be the flip side 368 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: of it, right where that was much more absolutely yeah no, 369 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: And then there'd be the flip side of it where 370 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: they were absolutely victimized and used as scapegoats because it 371 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: was an easy way to say which devil? Yeah, speaking 372 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: of scapegoats. Uh, this has been a running theme of 373 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: this entire episode. Another group of people who were victimized 374 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: were vulnerable members of society, like widows, the disabled. And again, 375 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: what's the main thing you've been hearing probably that's just 376 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: been kind of hitting the back of your head is 377 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: the misogyny that was involved in all of this stuff. 378 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: In fact, the largest demographic of people persecuted for witchcraft 379 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: were actually elderly women, and a lot of that had 380 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: to do with well, there's a lot of it that 381 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: had to do with misogyny just at large. But hold 382 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: on a second. We were talking about the individuals, right, 383 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: We're talking about each individual person, what their role was, 384 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: why they were persecuted. But what about the whole idea 385 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: of them getting together and working together? Right? Yes, so 386 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: we did stereotypes of witches and we just we just 387 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: busted that, hopefully, right, Hopefully we did. And we did 388 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: stereotypes of covens. But what we're real covens. See, that's 389 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: the thing. History is. History is funny, and history is 390 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: a lot more dynamic than people would sometimes have us believe. 391 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: History is a conversation, right, William Faulkner said, the past 392 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,959 Speaker 1: isn't over, it's not even past. And what we look 393 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: at when we dig into covens and the concept of 394 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: coven's is that the idea that a coven was a 395 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: name for a group of witches came way, way, way 396 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: afterward after any of these events. The word coven first 397 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: came around sometime in twenty so there had already been 398 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: witch hunts, uh, And it wasn't used to describe meetings 399 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: of witches until a trial in sixteen sixty two for 400 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: a woman named Isabel Goudi. Before then, it was just 401 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: like meet up. Yeah, it was just a hangout. And 402 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: and it wasn't until ninety one that that term became 403 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,239 Speaker 1: popular really associated with the gatherings specifically of witches. And 404 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: this association was made within an author, Margaret Murray's work, 405 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: The Witch Cult in Western Europe and yes, oh me too, 406 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: And this work also helped solidify there's a common idea 407 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: that within a coven there would be thirteen members, exactly 408 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: thirteen members, and there are some accounts that say that's 409 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: twelve actual what you would call witches, as well as 410 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: either a leader or the devil or deity themselves. So 411 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: you'd have actually like twelve apostles and then one leader 412 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: or one deity, right, And Murray actually believed that having twelve, 413 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: which is was a mockery of Jesus's twelve disciples. And 414 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: while it's true that the number thirteen does hold significance 415 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: within certain Wicken belief systems, the number of members of 416 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: a coven was generally not a requirement. There was no 417 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: like hard and fast rule. But we have also found 418 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: several modern covens that that do only allow thirteen members. 419 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: So why did people bother hunting witches in the first place. 420 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: I think partially it was because they genuinely believe they 421 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: were doing God's work, fighting the infernal and insidious forces 422 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: of of hell, of darkness. Yes, yeah, that's what it's 423 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: said on the label. But there's a dirty truth to this. 424 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: You see, the way the laws usually worked said that 425 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: if someone was convicted of witchcraft, whoever they were, the 426 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: person who convicted them got their possessions, all of their 427 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: worldly possessions, like, good job you uh. And this means 428 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: that in many cases witch hunters were working on commission basically. Yeah, 429 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: so like you have some bills to pay, you're a 430 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: witch hunter, you probably have three or four victims picked out. 431 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: And now you know, Fortunately for history, br anthropology, for science, 432 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: for humanity at large, these inquisitions and these other persecution 433 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 1: programs did not white about every non Catholic religion, and 434 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: you can still find modern groups identify as UH covens 435 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: or witches or or pagans of some sort today. So 436 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: let's get a little bit closer to modern day and 437 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: talk about witchcraft occurring right now. We've got some further 438 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: examples a little bit further down here, but we do 439 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: know that a lot of groups within the United States 440 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: and across the whole world practice a range of religions. 441 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: If if you're imagining witchcraft is one thing, you are 442 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: just dead wrong, because it's there's so many different belief 443 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: systems that can be or that are commonly described in 444 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: that way. UM. And it's all stuff that might even 445 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: fit the old Catholic definition of witchcraft, even though it 446 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: is not that UM. We also know that some of 447 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: the most historically prominent versions of a coven or a 448 00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: witchcraft witchcraft group, such as this guy, Gerald Gardner's New 449 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: Forest Covin, they have been soundly debunked by research that's 450 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: occurred in the modern day and later research that does 451 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 1: continue into the modern day. So let's think about the 452 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: adventures of an American anthropologist by the name of T. M. 453 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: Lerman uh In nineteen eighty five, T. M. Luhrmann moved 454 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: to London and kind of embedded herself in what you 455 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: could consider a contemporary British form of witchcraft and magic 456 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: which is very much still around today. And she asked herself, why, 457 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: um would anyone take up the practice of magic something 458 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: as weird is magic, especially since, according to observers that 459 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: she interviewed, it doesn't necessarily work. So she she she 460 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: to find out. She attended hundreds of secret meetings. And 461 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: this is a quote from an article from The New 462 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: York Times reviewing a work that she did called Covens 463 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: and Chaos Groups. She enacted dozens of rituals, and she 464 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: actually wrote some herself, which kind of shows you how 465 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: open ended. Yeah, it's absolutely improv um as she read 466 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: tarot card, she sewed her own magic robes. She even 467 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: would ingest psychotropic substances to get into some sort of 468 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: fugue like reverie state, the type that the Druids would 469 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 1: have put themselves into in order to conduct their magic 470 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: right allegedly. And one of the main things she discovered 471 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: that was occurring within a lot of these groups was 472 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance. This this idea that the people who were, 473 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,360 Speaker 1: you know, magicians, and which is the people that um 474 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: that she was associating with, often remember their magical successes. 475 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: So if they're going to do a ritual or something 476 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: they remember that time. Then something kind of worked out 477 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: a little bit better, uh than than the failures. The 478 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: ones were absolutely nothing occurred, and the definition of success 479 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: ended up becoming so broad and subjective. And um, it's 480 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: just that you you realized or she realized that there 481 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 1: was a lot of generous interpretation that was occurring within 482 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: the group and within the with individuals. Yeah, so like 483 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: for very compared since um, some of us probably work 484 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: with metrics and things in our day jobs. Right, we 485 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 1: have a way to measure success. This this way of 486 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: measuring success was a lot less like let's look at 487 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: the facts and a lot more like, well and did 488 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: a ritual with water yesterday, and uh I saw some 489 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: water the next day, so boom, you know. But it's 490 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,719 Speaker 1: also not to completely discount it, right, that's not what 491 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: we're saying. We're just we're just saying it was easier 492 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: to believe it if you were within the group and 493 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: you had those beliefs already. That's the same way when you, 494 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: you know, design an algorithm and you say this is 495 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: the end all be all of something, there's somebody else 496 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: that says, no, mine, mine is the end all be all. 497 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,719 Speaker 1: It's the same with anything when you interpret data and information, 498 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 1: it's a lot of it is kind of happenstance, and 499 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: it's hard to know exactly which one is the right answer. Right, Yeah, Yeah, 500 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: here's the thing. Okay, so we're talking about um, a 501 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: specific version of of witchcraft. But it is very very 502 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: important to note here that there are still human beings 503 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: across the planet right now in some very particular areas 504 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: that are being accused of witchcraft still and uh, they 505 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: are being hunted for that reason. Uh, and there are 506 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: these are isolated cases, but it's true. Again we're not 507 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: saying magic works, but there are more people, uh than 508 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: you might believe who are practicing what they would call 509 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: this left hand magic stuff. Let's let's talk about something 510 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but 511 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: narco cults. Right, we know what cartels are, we know 512 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: what the narcos are, Right, there are actual narco cults. 513 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: There was this sort of black magic that was happening 514 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: in Mexico, and we wanted to give you a specific 515 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: case of this. In nine Mexican authorities stumbled across a 516 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: genuine human sacrifice cult that was related to the drug cartels. 517 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: They were led by a guy named Adolfo Costanzo, who 518 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,959 Speaker 1: was only twenty six. By the way, he's a cult lead. 519 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: Twenty six. That's pretty good. Yeah, I mean kind of yeah. 520 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean. It wasn't a good cult though, 521 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: is the thing. It wasn't like a friendly Mr. Rogers type. 522 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, I'm I'm thirty six and I feel 523 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: I fell asleep trying to put on my pants once, 524 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: so like this this thing is, uh, this is weird. 525 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: He and his followers were called the Narco Satanists. They 526 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: committed multiple acts of human sacrifice, adopted from non Satanic 527 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: Caribbean religions up to and including cannibalism, because they thought 528 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: it would render them invisible, invincible, immune to bullets, and 529 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: they you know, we have to ask did they really 530 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: believe this? The answer I would argue is yes, because 531 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: they were killing people. They were literally weary necklaces of 532 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,719 Speaker 1: human vertebrae. When when authorities caught them, you go through 533 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: they have to have believed it. I think at this 534 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: all goes down to the power of belief for sure. 535 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 1: And they were eventually caught, thank god, during an investigation 536 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: into the death of an America can by the name 537 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: of Mark Kilroy, who is one of their final victims. 538 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: So at least at the end their covens, magic didn't 539 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: didn't just save them from from being found out. And 540 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: it turns out that magic motivated murders are popular across 541 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: the entire globe. You've got areas of South Asia, some 542 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: parts of Europe, the Middle East, and several African countries 543 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: where people are genuinely absolutely being murdered for perceived reasons 544 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: that are magical related. Yeah. I think we're all familiar 545 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: with albinism or you know, um being an albino. UM. 546 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: A lot of people with who suffer from albinism are 547 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: hunted in places like Tanzania and Malawi or um, sorry, 548 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: how do you say it? Malawi? Uh? They are They're 549 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: murdered because their organs are being harvested for magical purposes. 550 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: I know that sounds crazy, but it's true. Their hair 551 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,239 Speaker 1: and their body parts were a lot of times or 552 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: throughout history the subject of folklore of madical interest UM 553 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: specifically in those regions, but recently they've been touted as 554 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: a crucial component of any shorefire potion making. So if 555 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: if there's some witch doctor in a in a tribe 556 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: somewhere and they want to make a potion. They will 557 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: seek out this stuff money, wealth, power, true love, you know, 558 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: all the all the basic ones. And in in Saudi 559 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: Arabia and in the Islamic State, multiple people have been executed, 560 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: like very recently for the crime the perceived crime of witchcraft. Now, now, okay, 561 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: we've been yeah, we've been going over all the historical stuff, 562 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: the scary stuff. Let's let's talk about if you're going 563 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: to go out right now and try and find a 564 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: coven here in Manhattan. Uh, here's the cool thing. You 565 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: can do it and and they exist, and you can 566 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: actually probably go to a greeting or to a gathering. 567 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: You could probably if it's a full moon or a 568 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: new moon, you can go right now. There's a website 569 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: if you aim your browser at which vox w I 570 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: T C h v o X dot com, you can 571 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: find all of the locally or a lot of at 572 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: least the locally run covens, clans and coves. You got 573 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: an example for us, I do do you wanna? Can 574 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: you go over it a little where I can tell 575 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: you it's it's called um Hecate. That's one way to 576 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: say it's other. Heck, it is another way to pronounce it. 577 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: But Hecate is Sacred Temple, torchbearer of the Crossroads. This 578 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: is self described as a group of those who are 579 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: devotees or followers of the goddess Hecate that wish to 580 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: belong to a temple that honors and worships her. And uh, 581 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: who was Hecate? It's the it's the Greek goddess, right, Yeah, 582 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: it's the ancient Greek Hecate, as described on Wicca spirituality 583 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: dot com as the goddess of all doors and gates, 584 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: all transitions from one place to another or a state 585 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: of being um and the original hedge sitter, the hag, 586 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: the hex mistress. I'm a fan of people with multiple 587 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: superlatives like that, and she's described as like the queen 588 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: of witches in a lot of places. In this this 589 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: particular group, Hecate Sacred Temple offers classes and other opportunities 590 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: for the curious to learn about their organization and believe, 591 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: I don't want to downplay anything, but it almost feels 592 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: more like a community group or like a like a 593 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: nice kind of like knitting circle or something more than 594 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 1: it is some sort of like devil worship, he sacrificing 595 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: rotarian vibe or something you toastmasters. That's the whole point. 596 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: It's it's a place for people to hang out and 597 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: worship the way they want to worship. Yeah, that's that's 598 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: what I don't want to skip. There are modern witches, 599 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: there are modern covens. None of them are out to 600 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: get you know, you probably just want to hang out 601 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: with really quickly. I just met somebody a little while. 602 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna out anybody, but it was like, yeah, 603 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: I had a coworker who was who was a witch. Um. 604 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: She was super cool. I loved hearing the stories about 605 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: her beliefs. Didn't like her as a person. Kind of 606 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 1: creeped me out, because people are people. We met them, 607 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: we all we absolutely all. Yeah, but Um had nothing 608 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: to do with the belief system more just kind of 609 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: a creepy person. Absolutely. But my hairdresser who just moved 610 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: away sadly of a hairdresser or salon person, a person 611 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: who does my hair, she's amazing. She's she's wicked and 612 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: she just moves away and I'm and I'm just so sad. 613 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: But she, uh, she was incredible because she could touch 614 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: my head and then tell me things about my son's life. Dude, 615 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: do you think she just looked on your Facebook? So, 616 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: but but it is true. People tend to just be people, 617 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: and that's like, maybe maybe that's a disappointed spoiler for 618 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: some folks. But the vast majority of ancient witches and covens, 619 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 1: just like the vast majority of the ones around today, 620 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: they were not after you either. You know, the more 621 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 1: we dig into this question, the more apparent it becomes 622 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: that the allegations of some vast, shadowy conspiracy of individuals 623 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,240 Speaker 1: in league with infernal powers, we're just not true. They 624 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: there may have been, and they're likely were isolated groups 625 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: of people in communities practicing pre Chris spiritual traditions, but 626 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: they weren't out to like take over the world for Satan. 627 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: And I know that's gonna be kind of rough news 628 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: for some heavy metal fans out there personally sat about. Yeah, 629 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a bummer, but it's true port Tenacious Dye, 630 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: So you know, there you have it. There. There really 631 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: are real, real life witches and real life groups identifying 632 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: themselves as covens, But as Ben said, the vast majority 633 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: are harmless practitioners of spiritual beliefs that they hold deep 634 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: and dear um. And they're certainly not not out to 635 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: get you. Yeah, or are they? I think they're I 636 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: think they're probably not. They're probably done. But that is 637 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: our show. Thank you so much for coming, everybody. We 638 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: we hope that you enjoyed it. Yeah, we hope, so. 639 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you O'Connell, thanks to Paul, Thanks to 640 00:36:53,680 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 1: you you m h. Stuff They Don't Want You to 641 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: Know is a production of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. 642 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I 643 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 644 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.