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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to it could happen here, a podcast about how

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Speaker 3: freedom is a joke in our lives are the punchline,

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Speaker 3: I am your host, Mio Wong. Long ago, twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 3: in a galaxy basically exactly where this one is now.

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Speaker 3: Jeff Bezos, the founder of Amazon and now a terminal fascist,

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Speaker 3: purchased the Washington Post. This was a sign of things

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Speaker 3: to come. The danger of the American free press is

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Speaker 3: and has always been, that we do not have a

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Speaker 3: free press. We have a capitalist press. Writing and especially reporting,

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Speaker 3: is a material product. Journalists have to eat, they have

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Speaker 3: to travel, they have to go places, they have to

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Speaker 3: meet people. All of this requires capital. And the problem

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Speaker 3: with all of this requiring capital is that capital is

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Speaker 3: not a neutral entity and the people who possess capital

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Speaker 3: have interests. Fast forward to twenty twenty, as protests and

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Speaker 3: uprisings raised across the United States against the police and

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Speaker 3: white supremacy. A battle broke out inside of the New

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Speaker 3: York Times newsrooms and editorial staff about the newspaper publishing

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Speaker 3: an opinion piece called send in the Troops calling for

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Speaker 3: You've Guessed It, Sending in the troops to attack protesters,

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Speaker 3: published by a member of the American governments named Tom Cotton.

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Speaker 3: Editors resigned in outrage. Debates raised a class journalist slacks.

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Speaker 3: It was the culmination of decades of battles about the

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Speaker 3: direction of politics in race in the United States, fought

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Speaker 3: simultaneously in the streets and in the newsroom. Twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: was a significant danger to the ruling class. The actual

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Speaker 3: ideology that was so dangerous it had to be destroyed

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Speaker 3: was this if the premise of twenty twenty is true,

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Speaker 3: which is that the US is a structurally racist country

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Speaker 3: founded on slavery and genocide, and that reproduces those same

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Speaker 3: violences through the prison system, which has legal slavery in it.

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Speaker 3: From the structure of the Thirteenth Amendment and reproduces it

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Speaker 3: again through the police. Then the American project is indefensible,

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Speaker 3: and here there be dragons. The ruling class needed to

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Speaker 3: move to stop it, and so they created what they

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Speaker 3: would call, I guess, a new ideology, but was really

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Speaker 3: a continuation of centuries old strategies. This time we branded

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Speaker 3: as anti woke. One of the avatars of anti woke

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Speaker 3: was Barry Weiss. Barry Weiss was that the New York

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Speaker 3: Times at the time was an ideological diversity hire, which

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Speaker 3: is to say, affirmative action for white conservatives, as affirmative

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Speaker 3: action has only existed in the figments of the minds

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Speaker 3: of conservatives. She was given a cozy make work job

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Speaker 3: at the beginning of the Trump administration as an opinion

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Speaker 3: staff editor and writer for The New York Times. She

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Speaker 3: was hired specifically to bring in more Trumpian figures into

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Speaker 3: the opinion section. This is, and I cannot emphasize this enough,

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Speaker 3: this is the fever dream of affirmative action in the

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Speaker 3: conservative mind right. And these are going to be about

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Speaker 3: to people who really hate affirmative action. But again, what

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Speaker 3: they are being given. They are being handled by the

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Speaker 3: most important newspaper probably in the entire world. You know,

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Speaker 3: she was handed a job because she was a fucking

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Speaker 3: right winger. Now, Weiss was part of the shall we say,

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Speaker 3: conversations at the New York Times about again whether or

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Speaker 3: not a newspaper should print a letter from a sitting

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Speaker 3: US representative calling for the deployment of US soldiers against

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Speaker 3: the American people. And she saw this as an opportunity

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Speaker 3: not to resist a obviously tyrannical program by again, a

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Speaker 3: sitting member of the United States government. She saw this

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Speaker 3: as her moment to do a grift. Now, in this moment,

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Speaker 3: she resigned from The New York Times in a huff

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Speaker 3: raving about the quote lack of ideological diversity. Who had

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Speaker 3: a giant rant about how the Twitter is not the

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Speaker 3: masthead of the New York Times blah blah blah blah

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Speaker 3: blah blah blah, which again I kind of emphasize this enough.

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Speaker 3: Like the she was brought in as a right wing

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Speaker 3: affirmative action higher in order to appease the demand from

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Speaker 3: the ruling class. I guess for like pro Trump people,

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Speaker 3: they already had electra right wingers. This is completely unhinged.

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Speaker 3: But you know, she resigns and she has this big

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Speaker 3: press to her in the right wing press trying to

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Speaker 3: talk about how she was canceled, and of course none

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Speaker 3: of this ever even happened. Right. We can debate the

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Speaker 3: effect to which cancelation ever was even really a thing

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Speaker 3: or did anything at all, But she was not canceled.

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Speaker 3: She literally resigned of her own free will. She was

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Speaker 3: not forced out. She chose to leave in order to

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Speaker 3: pursue a career as a right wing griff for another fields,

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Speaker 3: namely Substack, where she ran a newsletter that was sort

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Speaker 3: of rebranded as like, oh, it's a media outlet called

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Speaker 3: the Free Press. It's like, no, this is Barry Weiss's Substack.

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Speaker 3: Come on, what are we doing here? What are we

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Speaker 3: doing here? Now? Weiss is not a journalist. She is

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Speaker 3: a right wing idea logue. She's also a hardline Zionist.

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Speaker 3: If you want to go into all of the absolutely

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Speaker 3: unhidded shit that Barry Weiss has said and done over

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Speaker 3: the years, all of the just unbelievably somophobic shit, all

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Speaker 3: of the weird racist shit, all of the anti immigrant

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Speaker 3: shit that she said, there's a very good John Oliver

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Speaker 3: thing about her. She is part of this story. But

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Speaker 3: if we spent this entire episode just talking about how

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Speaker 3: much he fucking sucks. We would be here for like

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Speaker 3: two decades now. In a just world, none of this

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Speaker 3: would matter at all. This would just be a conservative

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Speaker 3: walking off from the free job that she was given

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Speaker 3: by The New York Times, stomping off at a huff

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Speaker 3: and going to start a sub stack whatever. Who kicks.

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Speaker 3: This is not a just world. This is the United States.

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Speaker 3: She now controls one of the most powerful and important

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Speaker 3: news organizations in the United States. The story of how

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Speaker 3: she got there is the story of the future of

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Speaker 3: the American media. Unfortunately, for all of us, the story

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Speaker 3: is a stressingly simple Barry Weiss and her outlet. I'm

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Speaker 3: using that in immense quotations. Again, this is just a

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Speaker 3: sub stack was bought out by one Larry Ellison. Larry

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Speaker 3: Ellison that appointed Weiss to be the ideological hatchet woman

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Speaker 3: for his takeover of Paramount, which owns CBS. There was

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Speaker 3: no secret plan, there was no weird strategy, there was

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Speaker 3: no Illuminati cabal behind the scenes. It didn't require any

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Speaker 3: effort at all. All you have to do in order

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Speaker 3: to install a right wing hack as the editor in

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Speaker 3: chief of CBS News is by the company. The results

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Speaker 3: have been devastating. I would call what happened to resegregation.

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Speaker 3: There was a large scale firing of non white employees.

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Speaker 3: NBC eliminated the editorial teams for NBC Asian America, NBC Black,

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Speaker 3: NBC Latino, and NBC Out. NBC Out was the queer one.

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Speaker 3: They fired kal King. They did some stuff that frankly

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Speaker 3: sounds like a joke. I'm just going to read this

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Speaker 3: quote from the Root and the CBS News bureau in Johannesburg,

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Speaker 3: South Africa has been shut down with coverage of Africa

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Speaker 3: shifting to London. That is again, they closed the South

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Speaker 3: Africa Bureau. This is a CBS bureau in South Africa

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Speaker 3: and moved their coverage of Africa from Africa to London.

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Speaker 3: If a hardline Marxist ideologue had written this in nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty seven, no one would have believed them. And in

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Speaker 3: the process, what they've done here is they've destroyed the

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Speaker 3: NBC outlets that were responsible for doing a whole bunch

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Speaker 3: of coverage for different groups of not white people. Right,

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Speaker 3: nbcblkh's MC Black did a whole bunch of very good

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Speaker 3: coverage of the uprising in twenty twenty right, NBC Asian

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Speaker 3: America did a bunch of good work. NBC out was

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Speaker 3: a place where you could occasionally find a transperson who

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Speaker 3: was allowed to write. And all of that is gone

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Speaker 3: because one man, Larry Allison and his son David Allison,

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Speaker 3: bought the fucking media company and installed this unhinged right

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Speaker 3: wing hack as their ideological secret police. I don't even

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Speaker 3: know what you would call this position, the ideological purge executor.

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Speaker 3: I guess you could call it of CBS. Now, obviously

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Speaker 3: there are multiple aspects to this. We'll talk about Larry

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Speaker 3: Ellison himself in a second, because he is a very

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Speaker 3: important figure. But first, before we talk about the consolidation

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Speaker 3: of capital into increasing monopolies. Let's go here from some

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Speaker 3: of those monopolies, product services. Let's go we are so back.

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Speaker 3: Obvious driving factors behind what has become a right wing

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Speaker 3: fascist takeover of the media has been the consolidation of

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Speaker 3: capital into increasing monopolies. Now, it's been a very, very

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Speaker 3: famous thing in the US to say that most of

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Speaker 3: American media is controlled by five companies. But here's the thing.

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Speaker 3: Even those five companies, those can always be consolidated into

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Speaker 3: fewer and fewer companies. Right as the company start to struggle,

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Speaker 3: as any one of them sees weakness in the other ones,

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Speaker 3: you get attempts to buy them out. And this is

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Speaker 3: what happens with Paramount, which is again the parent company

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Speaker 3: that owns NBC. So the way that it's framed, if

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Speaker 3: you read it in the presss oh, it was a

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Speaker 3: merger between Skydance, which was Ellison's sort of outlet, and Paramount.

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Speaker 3: But that's not really what happened. Really, what happened was

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Speaker 3: Paramount was bought by Ellison and sky Dance and they

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Speaker 3: were merged together after that. And this is a problem

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Speaker 3: with the concentration of capital. Right as capital becomes increasingly

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Speaker 3: more and more concentration, as there are individual people and

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Speaker 3: also entities that control more and more capital, their ability

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Speaker 3: to simply swallow the rest of their competition and consume

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Speaker 3: it increases. And this is a significant advantage to the companies.

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Speaker 3: To get the swallow of this capital, they get to

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Speaker 3: absorb all of the intellectual property, and so now they

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Speaker 3: have control over the property regimes that allow them to

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Speaker 3: control cultural production, and as a sort of incidental bonus,

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Speaker 3: they can take control of the media. Now it's worth

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Speaker 3: getting into the Ellisons themselves. Now, Larry Allison, back in

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Speaker 3: the halcyon days of twenty twenty, was merely the eleventh

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Speaker 3: richest man in the world when he quote participated in

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Speaker 3: a call shortly after the twenty twenty election that focus

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Speaker 3: on strategies for contesting the legitimacy of the vote. According

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Speaker 3: to court documents and a participant, the November fourteenth call

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Speaker 3: included Lindsey Graham, Fox News host Sean Hannity, Jay Seklau,

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Speaker 3: an attorney for President Donald Trump, and James Bob Junior,

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Speaker 3: an eternity for True the Vote, a Texas based nonprofit.

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Speaker 3: True the Vote was a completely unhanged organization dedicated to

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Speaker 3: overturning the twenty twenty election by doing all these weird

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Speaker 3: voter fraud things. And they had a strategy call, like

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Speaker 3: the attorney in a strategy call with a bunch of

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Speaker 3: Trump supporters, including one Larry Ellison. Now again that was

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Speaker 3: back in twenty twenty. Here in twenty twenty five and

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Speaker 3: now fighting with Elon Musk for the title of the

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Speaker 3: richest person in the fucking world. Ellison said, and I quote,

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Speaker 3: We're going to have supervision. Every police officer is going

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Speaker 3: to be supervised at all times, and if there's a problem,

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Speaker 3: AI will report that problem and report it to the

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Speaker 3: appropriate person. Citizens will be on their best behavior because

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Speaker 3: we are constantly recording and reporting everything that's going on

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Speaker 3: now in that intervening time. Larry Ellison is one of

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Speaker 3: the people behind Oracle, and Oracle has benefited enormously as

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Speaker 3: a company that got really in on the cloud storage boom.

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Speaker 3: They even benefited enormously from selling a bunch of shit

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Speaker 3: to AI companies. Lara. Ellison is also a huge AI supporter,

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Speaker 3: a huge back of AI, a huge someone who wants

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Speaker 3: to spread AI, and someone who wants to spread AI,

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Speaker 3: you know, very specifically, and this is very important into

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Speaker 3: surveillance technology. He is also one of the people who

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Speaker 3: as twenty twenty went on and as the last half

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Speaker 3: decade has come on and as the giant sort of

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Speaker 3: backlash against against the uprising, and as his attempt to

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Speaker 3: reassert racism as the dominant ideology of the United States

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Speaker 3: and to make sure that capitals hold over this country

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Speaker 3: and that white supremacies hold over this country would be maintained,

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Speaker 3: he has become one of the large drivers of this

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Speaker 3: entire project He's not the only one. Jeff Bezos, as

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Speaker 3: we started this program with, already owned the Washington Post

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five, he went in to very seriously

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Speaker 3: change it. Jeff Bezos on the now fascist Twitter and

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Speaker 3: we will get to that in a second. Two wrote

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Speaker 3: and this was a This was a letter that he

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Speaker 3: sent to his staff, and this is this is the

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Speaker 3: editorial section. I'm writing to let you know about a

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Speaker 3: change coming to our opinion pages. We are going to

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Speaker 3: be writing every day in support and defense of two pillars,

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Speaker 3: personal liberties and free markets. Will cover other topics too,

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Speaker 3: of course, but viewpoints opposing those pillars will be left

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Speaker 3: to be published by others. David Shipley, who had been

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Speaker 3: his handpicked editor, resigned rather than lead the effort. It's

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Speaker 3: not like Shipley had been like a leftist, right but

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm going to read another part of this letter.

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Speaker 3: Quote I offered David Shipley, who I admire greatly because

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Speaker 3: you know he was the Hambick guy, the opportunity to

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Speaker 3: lead this new chapter I suggest. I said to him

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Speaker 3: that the answer wasn't hell yes, that it had to

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Speaker 3: be no. After careful consideration, David decided to step away.

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Speaker 3: So okay, what was actually happening here he came in

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Speaker 3: was like, our board is not fascist enough, and if

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Speaker 3: you're not going to make it more fascist, then get

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Speaker 3: the fuck out of the way. And the guy he

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Speaker 3: had picked to run the editorial board like three years ago,

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Speaker 3: when this is unacceptable. I cannot be involved in this.

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Speaker 3: And left and now Washington Post publishes pieces with titles

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Speaker 3: like quote Pam Bondi's welcome woke rollback. The Justice Department

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Speaker 3: rescinds regulations encouraging racial preferences, you know, and you can

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Speaker 3: in some ways see all of the things that are

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Speaker 3: coming together. Obviously, Bezos was a major supporter of the

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Speaker 3: Trump administration, is a major support of the Trump administration.

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Speaker 3: Put a bunch of money into the unhinged Trump ballroom.

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Speaker 3: And when he says Justice resins regulations encouraging racial preferences,

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Speaker 3: they're talking about anti scrim nation ordinances, right, That's what

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Speaker 3: they're actually talking about. But these people have been so

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Speaker 3: cooked and have stewed so much in the ideology of

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Speaker 3: countering the ideology of twenty twenty that they're they're now

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Speaker 3: doing all of this reversed racism stuff where they think

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Speaker 3: that if you're not allowed to discriminate. That's anti white discrimination.

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Speaker 3: And the Washington Post has been tanking effectively in the

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Speaker 3: wake of a whole bunch of a whole bunch of

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Speaker 3: writ wing editorial changes. Its audience has significantly declined since this.

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Speaker 3: A whole bunch of people who subscribed to the Post

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Speaker 3: called it in their subscriber count is just absolutely pitiful.

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Speaker 3: Now the reach has been contracting. The paper is going

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Speaker 3: to shit. But that doesn't matter because the Washington Post

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Speaker 3: is not a money making outlet. The Washington Post is

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Speaker 3: a chance to shape the way that the country thinks.

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Speaker 3: And it is better that you know seven people in Washington, DC,

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Speaker 3: who are all identically minded conservatives read the Washington Posts

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Speaker 3: and agree with it than it is for there to

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Speaker 3: be any sort of independence whatsoever from anything on the

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Speaker 3: shop floor from any of the people writing for it.

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Speaker 3: We've also seen in recent months the elimination of teen

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Speaker 3: Folgue Conte Nasty. Teenvogue's parent company eliminated Team Vogue as

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Speaker 3: an independent outlet. Teen Vogue had been the furthest left

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Speaker 3: of the even sort of mainstream outlets in the US.

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Speaker 3: It had carried a bunch of extremely good and radical

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Speaker 3: work on race and gender. It was also one of

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Speaker 3: the few outlets with consistent trans writing. And of course,

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Speaker 3: the other aspect of all of these purges has been

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Speaker 3: unbelievable on hinge transphobia. And this was them just destroying

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Speaker 3: what had been a very very important outlet on the

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Speaker 3: left for telling the stories of non white people, telling

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Speaker 3: the stories of workers, and telling the stories of trans people.

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Speaker 3: And they just destroyed it. Even though, and this is

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Speaker 3: actually very interesting, ever since teen Vogue had shifted to

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Speaker 3: doing a bunch of leftist coverage and covering the protests

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Speaker 3: against Donald Trump in his first administration and had gone

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Speaker 3: towards actually, you know, talking about labor and talking about

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Speaker 3: struggle and talking about unions and talking about you know,

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Speaker 3: the like, the experiences of people living under white supremacy.

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Speaker 3: Its readership had exploded. But again that doesn't matter because

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Speaker 3: it's bad for Donald Trump. And so we're seeing the

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Speaker 3: ideological tightening consolidation to the media as what had been

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Speaker 3: an outlet that allowed people to talk about shit was

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Speaker 3: just destroyed. Now, speaking about outlets destroying things ideologically, Hey,

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Speaker 3: product and services, please don't destroy USOO. Now, as we

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Speaker 3: covered on this show a few weeks ago. Conde Nasts

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Speaker 3: also fired several union workers legally for you know, staging

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Speaker 3: a again protected workplace action, demanding to know what the

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Speaker 3: fuck was going on with these teen Vogue firings. And

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Speaker 3: that's another aspect of all of his takeover, which is

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Speaker 3: that these outlets just viciously and radically hates and this

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Speaker 3: is the ruling classes people who run these outlets viciously

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Speaker 3: hate unions. And this is something that's very important to

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Speaker 3: understand in terms of media unions, because media unions were

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Speaker 3: also a very powerful force for encouraging diversity because, as

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Speaker 3: it turns out, workers and this is true, I could

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Speaker 3: say that someone who's part of a media union less

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Speaker 3: racist than the bosses, and in fact would like there

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Speaker 3: to be more non white people and don't like it

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Speaker 3: when non white people are discriminated against. And this is

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Speaker 3: one of the things that these media unions and that

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Speaker 3: unions in general do is try to help you not

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Speaker 3: get fucking discriminated against on racial grounds. So of course

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Speaker 3: a part and partial of this has been the targeting

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Speaker 3: of the union and that's what we've been seeing at

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Speaker 3: conte Nast, where they also fired workers who had nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with teen Vogue and also of whom was

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Speaker 3: on the show and is trans and you should go

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Speaker 3: listen to that episode because it's very good. But that's

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Speaker 3: another aspect of this right wing consolidation is that media

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Speaker 3: unions are able to push back against the untrammeled power

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Speaker 3: of these fascist billionaires to turn news coverage into whatever

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Speaker 3: the fuck they want. And that's what's happened at CBS,

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Speaker 3: where they're now doing giant specials with like Kirk's Widow

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Speaker 3: and all of these just absolutely deranged, unbelievably bizarre right

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Speaker 3: wing pieces that they're just sort of airing now. And

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Speaker 3: in order to you know, stop that shit, you need

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Speaker 3: powerful media unions, and this is one of the things

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Speaker 3: the ruling class is trying to crush. Now. It's also

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Speaker 3: worth mentioning that these right wing billionaires are trying to

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Speaker 3: consolidate their hold on social media as well as the

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Speaker 3: traditional media. And obviously the largest example of this is

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk, who's purchased Twitter and has you know, effectively

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Speaker 3: turned Twitter into another arm of Stormfront. It is a

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Speaker 3: just unhinged stew of racism and conspiracy that is now

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Speaker 3: effectively unusable if you don't want like the most racist

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Speaker 3: shit you've ever seen in your entire life, just in

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Speaker 3: every single one of your replies. And it's also become

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Speaker 3: a major, you know, vector of targeting for the Trump administration,

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Speaker 3: where what Twitter is used for now, instead of being

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Speaker 3: a platform that at one time actually was able to

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Speaker 3: play a role as a thing that does resistance, as

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Speaker 3: a tool of protesters, and as a tool of people

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Speaker 3: who opposed, you know, the untraveled rule of billionaires, it's

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Speaker 3: now been converted into just racist slop and a way

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Speaker 3: to track down anyone who's sort of vaguely centered left

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Speaker 3: and just put them in the eyes of the administration

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Speaker 3: so they can be targeted by the state. And it's

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Speaker 3: also worth noting that one of the people who helped

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Speaker 3: bankroll the purchase of Twitter because Elon Musk couldn't just

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Speaker 3: purchase it directly, was one Larry Ellison. Larry Ellison is

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Speaker 3: also part of a massive attempt to buy TikTok. Listeners

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Speaker 3: of the show are probably familiar with the whole extremely

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Speaker 3: weird story about how TikTok was banned last year under

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Speaker 3: the Biden administration sort of bafflingly and Trump sort of

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Speaker 3: just broke the law and made it still be usable,

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Speaker 3: but has been trying to force TikTok to be sold

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Speaker 3: to American buyers. And the conglomerate that's supposed to buy

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Speaker 3: it is a Larry Ellison thing, so he's also attempting

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Speaker 3: to buy TikTok. And finally, the story we're were to

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Speaker 3: close on is that Larry Ellison has been doing a

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Speaker 3: hostile takeover bid of Warner Brothers. Now Warner Brothers currently

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Speaker 3: is set to be bought by Netflix. Larry Ellison kept

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Speaker 3: on submitting bids to them, and his efforts to actually

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Speaker 3: get the purchase to go through were consistently denied. But

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Speaker 3: in the wake of that, they're attempting to do a

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Speaker 3: hostile takeover bid where they just go to the shareholders

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Speaker 3: directly and try to buy them out at what they

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Speaker 3: claim is a higher share price. I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: go into that whole thing as a fiasco, but what

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Speaker 3: is interesting for our purposes is that David Allison, who's

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Speaker 3: the guy running Paramount, who's the guy who's been directly

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Speaker 3: running the ideological purges, has met several times with Trump,

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Speaker 3: and last time they met, Trump has promised that he

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Speaker 3: would change the coverage of CNN in order to make

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Speaker 3: it better for Trump.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: It's also worth noting that buying CNN is not part

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Speaker 3: of the deal for the Warner takeover bid by Netflix.

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Speaker 3: Right if Netflix takes over Warner Bros. They don't get CNN.

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Speaker 3: Under Paramount and Larry Ellison's deal, they would get CNN now,

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Speaker 3: even though CNN has done a whole bunch of unhandshit

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Speaker 3: like having Ben Shapiro on to do fucking Electron coverage.

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Speaker 3: Jesus fucking Christ. Okay, Trump has still been mad at

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Speaker 3: them for reporting even a tiny bit critically about his administration.

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Speaker 3: And Trump has been kind of refusing to pick a

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Speaker 3: side directly in terms of the takeover bid for Warner

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Speaker 3: Brothers in the fight between Netflix and Paramount, but he's

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Speaker 3: now said that he wants to make sure that CNN

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Speaker 3: is sold and that it should get new leadership, presumably

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Speaker 3: along the style of what happened with CBS. And so

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Speaker 3: this is sort of the final phase of all of this, right,

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Speaker 3: which is trumpministration has the ability to use is quote

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Speaker 3: unquote anti trust power in order to stop one of

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Speaker 3: these two companies from doing this buyout, and Trump administration

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Speaker 3: is using the fact that the media is being bought

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Speaker 3: out by his allies in order to try to get

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Speaker 3: people to buy CNN and simply eliminate negative news coverage

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Speaker 3: of him. And I don't really think I need to

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Speaker 3: explain why it's extremely bad that the president of the

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Speaker 3: United States could simply order a news outlet to be

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Speaker 3: bought out, and then suddenly it's bought out. I think

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Speaker 3: it's kind of self explanatory why that's unbelievably bad. But

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Speaker 3: that is the situation that we may rapidly find ourselves

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Speaker 3: in because we don't live in anything that even sort

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Speaker 3: of looks like a democracy. We live in the dictatorship

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Speaker 3: of capital. And a thing about the press under a dictatorship,

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Speaker 3: even one that's as decentralized as the dictatorship of capital,

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Speaker 3: is that one particularly fascist faction of capital can simply

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Speaker 3: roll in by the media and take control of it.

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Speaker 3: And that's the project that we're seeing now. But these

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Speaker 3: people are not undefeatable. We beat them before, we can't

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Speaker 3: beat them again. And in some ways their project is

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Speaker 3: kind of self defeating in that they have spent a

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Speaker 3: significant amount of time hollowing out people's trust in these institutions,

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Speaker 3: and there is an extent to which as bad as

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Speaker 3: all of this is, they may simply be taking control

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Speaker 3: of a husk that they had already caused a rot

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Speaker 3: from the inside. And meanwhile, all of these, all of

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Speaker 3: his control of the media that they've been taking has

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Speaker 3: not stopped everyone from fucking hating them. And that's the

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Speaker 3: note that I want to leave everyone here on. It

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter how much of the media these people buy,

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Speaker 3: everyone still hates them. We can fight them and we

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Speaker 3: can win. Welcome, take it up at here a podcast

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Speaker 3: boldly asked the question what if a whole bunch of

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Speaker 3: your life wasn't controlled by the bizarre whims of random dictators.

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Speaker 3: This is your host, Mia Wung And the last time

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Speaker 3: we saw the Blue Bottle Union they had stage to

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Speaker 3: walk out treated Eclipse. Now they are back again to

433
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 3: talk about union shit and Yeah with me is Alex Pine,

434
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 3: who's the president of Blue Bottle Union, and Abby Sadow,

435
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 3: the secretary treasurer. Yet both of you two, Welcome to

436
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: the show. Hi, thanks for having us both back on. Guys,

437
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 3: thank you so much. Yeah, I'm really really, I'm really

438
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 3: excited to talk about this because the last one, I

439
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 3: gotta say that was one of the absolute funniest things

440
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 3: I've ever heard.

441
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I still can't get over how DHS got called

442
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 5: on us when we tried to file for our election.

443
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 3: So uninche like, I feel like this is this is

444
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 3: one of the things about doing the show is like

445
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 3: I'm like about to be five years into this, right,

446
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 3: It's like you think you've seen it all and then

447
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 3: just like no, just just the most unhinged bullshit you've

448
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 3: ever heard in your entire life, because like, just like,

449
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 3: the capacity for cruelty and inventiveness of bosses is effectively infinite,

450
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 3: So they can always find some bullshit the pull that

451
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 3: you've never seen before, and they love to do it too. Yeah.

452
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 5: This is one of the reasons why we unionized to

453
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 5: begin with, is just because bosses can be petty tyrants. Yeah,

454
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 5: and sometimes it seems like the only reason that they

455
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 5: got into being a boss is because they want to

456
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 5: be a petty tyrant but don't have the soul for

457
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 5: politics anyways.

458
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, we unionized last May.

459
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 5: For anybody that's unaware, Blue Bottle is a so called

460
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 5: specialty cough that is owned entirely by Nesslie. Yes, that

461
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 5: one that everyone regards as widely being evil.

462
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. See an extremely logged episode that I did, for example,

463
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 3: about Niceleie chocolate and child labor is great. This child

464
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 3: slave labor good stuff. We love capitalism, and.

465
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 4: Their coffee business is truly no better.

466
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

467
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 5: I mean, this is going to get wildly off topic

468
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 5: before we even begin. But if anybody looks up the

469
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 5: NGO Coffee Watch, they do a lot of great reporting

470
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 5: and research on the supply chains of coffee, specifically Nestli's

471
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 5: and Starbucks's, and it's all very ugly stuff. But Blue Bottle,

472
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 5: Blue Bottles, especially the coffee chain owned by Neslei. We

473
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 5: unionized all six of their Greater Boston locations in May

474
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 5: of twenty twenty four, and this year we.

475
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 3: Added four locations in the East Bay area to our

476
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 3: union in July. Hell yeah yeah.

477
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 5: We also just concluded a multi day strike as an

478
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 5: independent union at the end of November, so Black Friday.

479
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 3: Hell yeah yeah, yeah yeah. So let's talk about that strike. Well, actually,

480
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 3: I guess okay, we should. We should probably do the

481
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 3: run up to what has been happening until we go

482
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 3: after that strike. I'm getting I'm getting strike excited. This

483
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 3: is how I've been in my mind since September. It

484
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 3: is just how do we make a strike happen? Yeah, hell, yeah, Yeah,

485
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 3: let's talk about like what the sort of lead up

486
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 3: stuff to the action war and let's talk about like.

487
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, what expanding was, Like, yeah, Abby, do you want

488
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 5: to talk about the lead up?

489
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

490
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 4: So since we unionized last May, we've had multiple stage walkouts.

491
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 4: In September of last year, yeah, one of our union

492
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 4: wraps at the Harvard Square location, well unjustly fires, we

493
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 4: did a walk out over her termination. We did a

494
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 4: walkout in January of this past year after Blue Bottle

495
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 4: completely refused to negotiate with us over the renovation of

496
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 4: the Poudential Center and a lot of employees were going

497
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 4: to be losing out on almost eight dollars in tips

498
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 4: and is just fright hundreds of dollars a month. And

499
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 4: the company was like, oh, well, we bargained to an impasse,

500
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 4: so we're just going to do whatever we want. We

501
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 4: were like, okay, well that's not that's not all this works. No, yeah,

502
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 4: And then in May of this year, we did another

503
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 4: walkout when they made the same argument that we bargained

504
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 4: towards impass when they tried to install security cameras.

505
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 3: For anybody that's wondering.

506
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 5: No, the cafes in Boston did not have cameras in

507
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 5: them for the entire time that we were organizing or unionized,

508
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 5: until we began negotiating the installation of cameras as part

509
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 5: of our contract. When they felt like they were done

510
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 5: talking about cameras with us, they declared impass, which they

511
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 5: can't do because we were negotiating it as part of

512
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 5: the contract, so they would have had to get to

513
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 5: an impass on the entire contract before doing it. Yeah,

514
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 5: and their lawyer basically said, well, we weren't getting anywhere

515
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 5: with that, so we're going to do anyways.

516
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: God, labor law is so fun because it's like like

517
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 3: every boss breaks like one hundred million labor laws a second,

518
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 3: and then kind of nothing happens unless you force it to.

519
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 5: Speaking of breaking weird labor laws, since we unionized, one

520
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 5: nice thing that has happened was until May of this year,

521
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 5: they were negotiating over serious discipline, so final written warnings

522
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 5: or terminations with us. In effect, what this means is

523
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 5: that they would sit down with us and just talk

524
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 5: about why they felt like terminating someone was justified until

525
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 5: they said we're not going to do anything else aside

526
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 5: from fire them. But because of an NLRB ruling with

527
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 5: Starbucks at the end of April, their lawyer said that

528
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 5: they were done with that and they felt that they

529
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 5: had no legal obligation to continue doing it. Oh fun yeah,

530
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,239
Speaker 5: which a break from past practice. And we have been

531
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 5: writing them committing to negotiating over serious discipline with us.

532
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 5: So less than a week after they say we're not

533
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 5: going to bargain over discipline with you anymore, they fire

534
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 5: one coworker of ours, and our store immediately walked out

535
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 5: over it.

536
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 6: Hell yeah.

537
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 3: Which yeah.

538
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 5: I continue to be proud of that walkout, specifically because

539
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 5: it wasn't planned and because it was over something that

540
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 5: is pretty technical labor law wise.

541
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 3: Just the fact that they didn't negotiate over the termination.

542
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 3: That fun. That wrong. Yes, that's like girl who's read

543
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 3: a bunch of weird labor history. This thing feels like

544
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 3: a thing for a fucking weird labor history. The thing

545
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 3: it reminds me of is that there was this thing

546
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 3: in I think it was sibber Gora in Spain. She

547
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 3: like the twenties and thirties where it was like this

548
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 3: hyperbilitant labor like union like labor Town, but they had

549
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 3: a whole thing where they refused to strike over like

550
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 3: improving economic conditions because they were like, this is bourgeois

551
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 3: reformism and they would only strike over political stuff. Oh yeah,

552
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 3: but if you arrested like one person, like the whole

553
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 3: fucking city would go out. It's like this lot like yeah, no,

554
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 3: we could just call. We could just fucking instantly get

555
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 3: get a fucking walk out to happen over just like

556
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 3: over like them fucking with like kind of technical labor

557
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 3: stuff like this rocks. We love to see it. Yeah.

558
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 4: I was on the floor that day that our coworker

559
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 4: was fired, and I remember I went on my ten

560
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,239
Speaker 4: minute break after she was fired, and there's like a

561
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 4: pond behind our store, and I was literally throwing rocks

562
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 4: into the pond and I was like this sucks so

563
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 4: bad and I'm so angry. And then I was like, wait,

564
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 4: we're a unionized. I was like, wait a minute, we

565
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 4: have a union. And I go back into the store

566
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 4: and I was like, hey, guys, if we don't walk

567
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 4: out right now, then what is the point?

568
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 3: Yeah?

569
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 4: And everyone was like yeah, actually, if we don't walk

570
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 4: out right now, what is the point?

571
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah? Hell yeah.

572
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 4: And then we all walked out and it was it

573
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 4: was really beautiful.

574
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 3: Actually, that's so sick. That's so beautiful. I don't know

575
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 3: there's some kind of metaphor for like you walking in

576
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 3: being like the first rip the rock hitting the pond

577
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 3: in the first ripples going out and the whole thing.

578
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, that's I don't know, that's gorgeous. I love it.

579
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 3: That fucking rules. Congratulations. Tell yeah.

580
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 4: One of my favorite things to say is that union

581
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 4: is friendship, and friendship is unions, and when your friend

582
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 4: gets fired, you should be able to walk out.

583
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

584
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, fucked that, like seriously here.

585
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, And on the whole, we've had a I think

586
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 5: pretty successful year, especially because I want to stress this,

587
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 5: we're independent, So for all the walkouts that we've done,

588
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 5: we've been able to replace the wages of baristas.

589
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:18,479
Speaker 3: Oh that's really sick.

590
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 5: If anybody listening to this wants to help us be

591
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 5: able to do more walkouts, you can go yes tinywurl

592
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 5: dot com forward slash bbu dash strike will be in

593
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 5: the description.

594
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 3: Hell yeah.

595
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 5: Because at this point, the companies realize that they can't

596
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 5: break our solidarity in any meaningful way by resorting to

597
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,720
Speaker 5: skear tactics or delaying, and so now they've just resorted

598
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 5: to straight up firing people because yeah, like it's kind

599
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 5: of like a break glass here in case of emergency

600
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 5: thing where.

601
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 3: They're like, we're all out of ideas. What do we do? Yeah,

602
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 3: it's just start trying to fire everyone.

603
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 4: And that's what they've done.

604
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 6: Yeah.

605
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 5: Most recently, all the stores in both Boston and the

606
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 5: East Bay area went on a four day straight it's

607
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 5: November because the company illegally fired Abby executive board member

608
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 5: named Nora and an organizer of ours in the East

609
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 5: Bay named Ashley for all incredibly petty reasons. I don't

610
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 5: know if you want to speak more to why you

611
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 5: were fired Abby.

612
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, so on the record, I was fired because I

613
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 4: wore green pants. What I wore green pants like three

614
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 4: weeks prior to me being fired. And let me tell you,

615
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 4: there's nothing worse than waking up at four point thirty

616
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 4: to go to your opening shift at your stupid cafe job,

617
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 4: to then clock in and be immediately hit with separation

618
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 4: forms because you wore green pants three weeks ago.

619
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 3: What you must.

620
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 5: Understand what a serious infraction it is to wear green pants.

621
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 4: Of course, I mean clearly the green pants that I've

622
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 4: been wearing for the better part of two years.

623
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, firing Abby was generous. Actually she should have been

624
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 5: put to death for the crime of wearing green pants.

625
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 4: Of course, most likely this is.

626
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 3: Some like fucking medieval like, yeah, you pissed off the

627
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 3: monarch by like you wore a color of pants that

628
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 3: was like unfavorable to the eye of the king, and

629
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 3: now he's drawn and quarter Like what is this bullshit?

630
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 4: Like, yep, I wore green pants in front of my manager,

631
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 4: therefore I should not be able to make my rent.

632
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's absolutely gibberish that that might be the all

633
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,479
Speaker 3: time dubbest fiery reason I've ever heard, Like what is.

634
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's just so egregious because the managers know

635
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 4: that I have a great rapport with all my coworkers.

636
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 4: I'm front all of my coworkers, and they were like, hmm,

637
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 4: how can we, you know, make one of our long

638
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 4: standing employees who is good at their job, you know,

639
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 4: get fired? So green pants was the reasoning, which.

640
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 3: And just like the idea of your employer being able

641
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 3: to control what color of pants you wear is like

642
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 3: is a thing that just on a foot of mental

643
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 3: level would not be accepted with any other kind of

644
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 3: authority that everyone immediately recognizes. Wait, what the fuck that's

645
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 3: completely unhinged. Why should someone have the ability to tell

646
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 3: you like, no, you have to wear this color pants,

647
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,959
Speaker 3: or you can't pay your rents and you can't eat

648
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 3: oh yeah no.

649
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 5: And this is kind of the despotism of management that

650
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 5: we're just talking about.

651
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 7: Isn't it.

652
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 6: Yeah.

653
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 3: And this is the thing that in.

654
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,760
Speaker 5: Bargaining sessions for a contract, their site is very interested

655
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 5: in maintaining. We've said multiple times that we want a

656
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 5: better just code policy, or at the very least, we

657
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 5: don't want to wave our right to be able to

658
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 5: wear a union memorabilia on the floor.

659
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 6: Uh huh.

660
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 5: And because he doesn't have any better ideas, their lawyer

661
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 5: can only think to shoot that down by talking about

662
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 5: how he doesn't, you know, wear his sexuality on his

663
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 5: shirt or what.

664
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

665
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, because he was like, why don't you want

666
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 5: to be able to wave your right to wear a

667
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 5: union memorabilia on the floor, and we said, we want

668
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 5: to be able to show pride that we are unionized,

669
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 5: and we want to be able to have more freedom

670
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 5: for expression.

671
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 3: Uh huh.

672
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 5: Because it's despotic to be able to have that level

673
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 5: of control over what somebody does. Yeah, and then he said,

674
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 5: you know, well, I don't wear my sexuality on my shirt,

675
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 5: and then realize that it was maybe inappropriate to say that,

676
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 5: So then he talked about how he doesn't wear his

677
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 5: daughters on.

678
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 3: His shirt, which it's a more convoluted point.

679
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, because he's proud of his kids.

680
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 3: I guess what are we doing here? Just come on,

681
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 3: we gotta have better arguments than.

682
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 4: This, Like, no, this guy is really full of bad arguments.

683
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, if you want to hear bad arguments, you should

684
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 5: sit down on the bargaining session where their lawyer goes

685
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 5: on kind of incomprehensible tie rades about how the free

686
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 5: market in the aggregate will make sure that the best

687
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 5: person will get promoted over time, or that the company

688
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 5: will become more profitable or run with the most efficiency

689
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 5: as an enterprise, because anything else would be illogical because

690
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 5: they wouldn't produce more profit.

691
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 3: But what does that have to do with labor? Yes,

692
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 3: there's actually this is okay, So when I know who's

693
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 3: a lawyer once told me that, like the this is

694
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 3: this is not like a leftist this is just like

695
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 3: she's just like a corporate lawyer once told me that

696
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 3: this is like the actual secret basis that doesn't exist

697
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 3: of all corporate laws, that there is actually nothing in

698
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 3: the law that says a company has to make more

699
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 3: money or that they even have the right to make money.

700
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 3: Like that's that that doesn't exist, Like that's not it.

701
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 3: That's not a thing, Like there's no, you don't actually

702
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 3: have a legal right to make more money, like you

703
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: simply don't. That's just that's not how this works. The

704
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: thing that reminds me of is the other pollet is

705
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 3: David Graeber wrote about. I think you might have been

706
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 3: quoting someone else, but I can't remember who was quoting.

707
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 3: But he writes about how the relationship between sort of

708
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 3: eloquence and violence where the less you have and this

709
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 3: isn't somewhere in the hope of rules. He writes about

710
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 3: how you know people who have a access to violence

711
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 3: to compel people to do something, you don't even have

712
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 3: to speak the same language as someone. Right, you can

713
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 3: just point a gun at them and you know they

714
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 3: have to obey you because you know they have force, right,

715
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 3: But the less ability you have to actually use force

716
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 3: to get someone to do something right. So if you're

717
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,240
Speaker 3: a village chief in there's actually a lot of conditionous

718
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 3: tribes that were like this, but you know you're you're

719
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 3: in like sort of the Northeast, and you don't actually

720
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 3: have the ability to compel people to do things. So

721
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 3: if you want people to go work in the morning,

722
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 3: you have to like get up and make a giant

723
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 3: show of like, oh, I'm getting up to work in

724
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 3: the morning. Everyone follow me. Wow, look at how hard

725
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 3: I working. And you have to like convince them through oratory.

726
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 3: And you know this, this is like why all these

727
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 3: people when when Europeans run into them, everyone is like,

728
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 3: holy shit, these are like the these are the best

729
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 3: orders of every encountered because they have to be right.

730
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 3: But the more power you have, the less eloquence you

731
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 3: have to have, which I think is like, you know,

732
00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 3: this is like a Donald Trump thing, right, It's like, yeah,

733
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 3: what what you've what you've reached disappoint in the process.

734
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,320
Speaker 3: You know, you can just compel people do things through violence.

735
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 3: You can just like talk like a fourth grader and

736
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 3: it's fine and it doesn't matter because you just have violence.

737
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 3: And that's what this reminds me of it, like, oh,

738
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,439
Speaker 3: we're the company like we have like we're fucking owned

739
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 3: by nasty We have all this money. We don't have

740
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 3: to make compelling arguments. We just have to like have power. Yeah,

741
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 3: I mean pretty much. Personally, it reads to me as.

742
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 5: Like a way to delay actually talking about any of

743
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 5: our demands at the table, because if you just eat

744
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 5: up all the time, then there's.

745
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 3: No time to talk. Yeah.

746
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, but that's also really beautiful to think about from

747
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 5: a more abstract sense.

748
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, also, just companies love fucking with negotiations. It's awful.

749
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 3: I how okay, I should just start asking everyone who

750
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 3: does negotiations about this. But on average, how late should

751
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 3: their manages to show up to meetings?

752
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 5: I would say that actually both sides are equally late

753
00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:00,479
Speaker 5: well to the negotiations, at least just because getting around

754
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 5: the city is so difficult. Oh oh, so that's it's.

755
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 3: Like a transit thing, not like a no, no, we're

756
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 3: not deliberately showing up ly as far as I know. Yeah,

757
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 3: we just can't get in traffic. Yeah, but there should

758
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 3: they already just be there?

759
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, Well, because this is something that's actually been

760
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 5: a delay tactic for them, is they insist that we

761
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 5: need to split the cost equally of a bargaining space.

762
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 3: What what?

763
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 5: And again, we're independent, so they know that we can't

764
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 5: on a regular basis commit to that. So if you

765
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 5: want to donate to our unions that way, we can

766
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 5: hate to sit down in front of these people.

767
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 3: That's completely on it. Yeah, having to have the union

768
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 3: pave I've never heard of that before. That's completely deranged,

769
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 3: that's what.

770
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 5: And we we've even waived our right to meet in

771
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 5: a neutral space.

772
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 3: Uh huh.

773
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 5: So we've asked if they would be willing to meet

774
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 5: in the office of their legal representation or if they'd

775
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 5: be willing to meet in the office of our legal representation,

776
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 5: and they've said no to both because supposedly, despite being

777
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 5: the second largest union avoidance firm in the world, they've

778
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 5: said that their office doesn't have adequate space to hold us.

779
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 5: But then rental space in the city is so fucking

780
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 5: expensive that there's no feasible way to rent a space

781
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 5: for eight hours for two days.

782
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:21,879
Speaker 3: You know, once a month.

783
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, which is meant that we've ended up in some

784
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 5: strange places, so college conference rooms, city hall, we work

785
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 5: what Yeah.

786
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 3: Really know, this is the most deeply unserious company I

787
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,720
Speaker 3: have ever encountered, Like, there's all.

788
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 5: Kinds of things like that that they've employed in the

789
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 5: past year to attempt us making significant progress with negotiating.

790
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 5: And it wasn't until November this year that they finally

791
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 5: gave us a counter on economics after we told them

792
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 5: we would file a bad faith bargaining charge if they didn't. Hell, yeah,

793
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 5: do you want to guess what they're counter So, for reference,

794
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 5: our union's requesting thirty dollars an hour for bristas because

795
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 5: that's a living wage according to the MIT living wage calculator.

796
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 5: Do you want to guess what Bluebottle said they would

797
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 5: give us eighteen?

798
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 4: No?

799
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 5: Well, actually, strangely yes, they said, right now we make

800
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 5: eighteen an hour. But they said they'll keep it the

801
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 5: same and they want to retain the rate to change

802
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 5: it whenever they want. They're they're making a floor. They're

803
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 5: they're committing to a floor that I then tried to

804
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 5: ask if they've ever in their history decreased wages. Uh huh,

805
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:37,879
Speaker 5: and they're like, no, I don't see why we would

806
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 5: ever do that, And like, oh, so then this floor

807
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 5: is bullshit.

808
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 3: Actually, their baseline for negotiations is our starting position is nothing.

809
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and this is a year after negotiating with them

810
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 5: so far.

811
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, a year. It it's like okay, like I mean

812
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 3: at that that point, it's like, yeah, I don't know,

813
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 3: like fucking are our starting position is we should have

814
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 3: your house? Like this is like this is like equally

815
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 3: come on, like you having their house is a more

816
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 3: reasonable demand than our basic negotiating position is nothing, Like

817
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 3: what are we doing here?

818
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 8: Oh?

819
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 6: No idea?

820
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 3: Just god? Yeah, I mean it answered obligatory line here

821
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 3: about how after you win an election. The most common

822
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 3: way for UNI to fail is bargaining the first contract.

823
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 3: And companies know this. They will just do bullshit for

824
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 3: several years to attempt to not have you get a contract.

825
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 3: It sucks. Yeah, yeah, fuck them.

826
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 4: It's their whole strategy. I mean, the whole like union

827
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 4: avoidance of it all is they're just trying to like

828
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 4: wait us out and then fire people who are involved

829
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 4: and just like in their words, like let turnover do

830
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 4: its natural work. It's like, isn't this specialty coffee? Don't

831
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 4: you want people who are good at their jobs. I've

832
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 4: watched some of my new coworkers pull a shot that

833
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 4: I wouldn't feed to a dog like the same.

834
00:45:55,560 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, why Look, you can't expect managers to know

835
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 3: how to do things that's not their job.

836
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 4: My manager, let me tell you. I used to have

837
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 4: to open with her like three times a week. And

838
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 4: she has this very beautiful habit of as she's dialing

839
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 4: espresso and also she does as well, she's counting cash,

840
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 4: she will have her phone open on TikTok and then

841
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 4: scroll through. I have this one horrific memory. It was

842
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 4: six am and she was going through an entire TikTok

843
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 4: storytime series for forty five minutes. And the whole story

844
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 4: time was going on, and every time it was an

845
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 4: introduction of like I don't even remember what it was about.

846
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 4: I think it was like She's like, oh, this is

847
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 4: my story of being like a mob boss's wife. And

848
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 4: I had to listen to that for forty five minutes

849
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 4: while opening.

850
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I think you should you should legally be

851
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 3: allowed to have her car. I think I should have

852
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 3: her house probably yeah too. Yes, it's like our starting

853
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 3: our starting demand is the boy. Every time you pissed

854
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 3: offs off, we get another one of your houses.

855
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 4: Look for every TikTok watched on the clock. That's a

856
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 4: doll towards me per hour.

857
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, what are we doing here?

858
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 5: They're owned by Nestli, But I don't think that there's

859
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 5: enough money in the world that would be able to

860
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 5: give you that, Abbey.

861
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry.

862
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 4: No, I don't think I'll ever receive fair compensation.

863
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 5: You can really piss off the modern monetary theory people

864
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 5: because they'd be like, no, even we can't account for this.

865
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 4: No one can account for the emotional damage.

866
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 3: We ran out of data in our federal reserve god

867
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:31,760
Speaker 3: to recap.

868
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 5: So in the past year, we've done multiple walkouts, unionized

869
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 5: four locations in the East Bay area, and then, after

870
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 5: Abbey was fired for bullshit reasons, along with two other organizers,

871
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 5: we went on a four day strike which included both cities.

872
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 5: And we've done this entirely as an independent union against

873
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 5: a company that is owned by Nesli.

874
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, and interestingly, just.

875
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 5: Because I'd be remiss to not mention this, the day

876
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 5: that we ended our strike, there was an article published

877
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 5: in Writers which was the most vibe based reporting that

878
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 5: I've ever seen, where it said Nesli explores sale of

879
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 5: blue bottle coffee. Sources say where there's three unnamed sources

880
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,359
Speaker 5: incredible that all say that Neslie is considering or looking

881
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 5: into selling Blue Bottle coffee, but interestingly says here quote

882
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 5: once source said Neslie could decide to sell the cafes

883
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 5: but retain the brand's intellectual property to continue selling the products.

884
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 3: End quote, what are we doing here this?

885
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 4: Yeah?

886
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's interesting as a tell because personally,

887
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 5: I think it's just a scare tactic.

888
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:34,479
Speaker 7: Yeah.

889
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like I could consider walking into traffic. I could

890
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 5: be looking into my options for how fast a car

891
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 5: would hit me, But that doesn't mean anything.

892
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 3: You didn't considering appropriating the mansion, like we're an exploratory committee.

893
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 3: Sources say, yeah, I don't think they'd publish that in writers,

894
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 3: but uh, it's.

895
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 5: Interesting that they would even say that, because is like

896
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 5: the entire value that Blue Bottle offers Nestlie is to

897
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 5: be able to put the brand onto you know, nespressopods

898
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 5: or whatever. And also just very weird timing with the

899
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 5: strike ending the same day comes out.

900
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 4: They are so scared, they are scared shitless and they

901
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 4: don't know what to do about it, and they're breaking

902
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 4: last left and right, trying to maintain power. But it's

903
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 4: like Alex said earlier, like the solidarity that we have

904
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 4: between our coworkers, it just cannot be broken by management.

905
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 4: And even after they fired me and two of our

906
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 4: other organizers, people still went out on the picket line.

907
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 3: We kept totally.

908
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 4: Five out of the six cafes closed in Boston and

909
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 4: the only reason one of them could stay open is

910
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 4: because all of the managers banded together to keep the

911
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 4: Credential Center open.

912
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 3: I hate to go.

913
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 4: Say I don't think a single latte went out correctly

914
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 4: that day, but hey, you knowast at least they can

915
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 4: still collect their nine dollars per latte.

916
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 3: So if you got food poisoning and the the strike

917
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 3: for good getting certain manager coffee.

918
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 4: If you had a bad experience during the strike at

919
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,760
Speaker 4: the Podential Center, just know that that was not union

920
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 4: made coffee, and we would never do that to you.

921
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 3: I think it's really beautiful that, yeah, y'all just kept

922
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 3: fucking doing this even though they're just doing this bullshit constantly,

923
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 3: and it's like, no, we're just going to keep fighting them,

924
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 3: and they're going to get so scared that they're leaking

925
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 3: to the press that we're thinking about selling the thing,

926
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 3: like it.

927
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 5: We're a lot further along than I thought we would

928
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 5: ever get. I thought they were going to fire us

929
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,399
Speaker 5: the day after we did the first walkout last year,

930
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 5: which is you know, I thought all the more reason

931
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 5: to try then.

932
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, but really, it's not.

933
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 5: Tough for people that we work with to realize that

934
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 5: they're getting a bad deal and that the reason that

935
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,439
Speaker 5: the job sucks is because they don't get paid enough

936
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 5: to live in the city. Like I think most baristas

937
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 5: at Blue Bottle see something like sixty percent of their

938
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 5: income going towards rent. Because Jesus, Yeah, we did a

939
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 5: survey on this. Let me double check to make sure

940
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 5: that I have the.

941
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 3: Facts right.

942
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 5: But yeah, this this is from you know, March, so

943
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 5: it's a little bit old data. We'll do another survey soon.

944
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 5: But most Blue Bottle barista is a rent burden, spending

945
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 5: more than thirty percent of their income on rent, the

946
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,280
Speaker 5: median rent paid by Blue Bottle employees being one thousand,

947
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 5: forty five dollars, which is the equivalent of one hundred

948
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 5: and fifty Nora Lean style iced coffees. That it's one

949
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 5: of the best selling drinks they have. Yeah, no, I know,

950
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 5: for one hundred and fifty Nola, So you two can

951
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 5: pay the median rent by paid by Barista and then

952
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 5: on average it's sorry forty six percent of their income

953
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 5: going towards rent, with roughly a third of Barristas paying

954
00:51:59,120 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 5: over sixty percent.

955
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

956
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 5: When we told all these facts to their lawyer at

957
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 5: a bargaining session and he just said that maybe the

958
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 5: reason that we were all struggling to make ends meet

959
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 5: was because we were paying for too many streaming services. Yeah,

960
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 5: I know, Like it's an entirely he knows this bullshit?

961
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,280
Speaker 3: Did they just get like a right wing ship post

962
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 3: to their lawyer?

963
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 4: Like?

964
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 3: Is this just like? Is this like fucking like? Is

965
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 3: this like the fail Sun clone of Rudy Giuliani? Like

966
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 3: is this gonna start melting off? What are we doing here?

967
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 3: Come on? I wish I could tell you.

968
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 5: I don't know what their strategy with saying obviously false

969
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 5: things is, but they love to do it.

970
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 3: It's so great, you know. Okay, fuck it, I'm gonna

971
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm gonna read this quote. I was gonna

972
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 3: use this for a different episode and I didn't, so

973
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 3: all right, fuck it, this is I'm gonna read this

974
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 3: line from Dan Olson's documentary In Search of Flat Earth,

975
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 3: which is like probably the best thing that's ever been

976
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 3: done about flat Earth, because they believe that power belongs

977
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 3: to those with the greatest will to take it. And

978
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 3: what greater sign of will than the ability to overwrite

979
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 3: the truth. Their will is a hammer they are using

980
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 3: to beat reality into a shape of their choosing a

981
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 3: simple world where reality is exactly what it looks like

982
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 3: through their eyes, devoid of complexity, devoid of change, where

983
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 3: they are right and their enemies are silent. They are

984
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,280
Speaker 3: trying to build a flat Earth.

985
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:27,399
Speaker 8: That's just the shit.

986
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 3: They're just like, no, fuck you, we can say whatever

987
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 3: the fuck we want because we think the week is

988
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 3: this is an expression of just power, even though we

989
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 3: know that we're lying, and you know that you're lying.

990
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 3: Is I mean, if you.

991
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 5: Want to talk about expression of power, you should read

992
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 5: their management's rights clause. Sorry, they're so called management's rights clause.

993
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 5: Oh god, let me see if I can pull that up.

994
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 5: So just to clarify, So, management's rates is a clause

995
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 5: that can be found in some union contracts because of

996
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:03,240
Speaker 5: collaborationanists within unions in the fifties deciding that they actually

997
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 5: didn't want to go for complete worker control of the

998
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,720
Speaker 5: means of production. They just wanted to collaborate with management

999
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 5: in order to get a better deal for wages.

1000
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 3: I'm not going to comment on the.

1001
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 5: History of that, but that's why they feel like they

1002
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 5: can include this in negotiations. Right now, we haven't agreed

1003
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 5: to any management rates, but quote, it is agreed that

1004
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 5: the management of the company's business and the direction of

1005
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 5: its working forces are vested exclusively in the company, and

1006
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,760
Speaker 5: the company retains all rights that had before the execution

1007
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 5: of this agreement unless a rate is clearly contracted away

1008
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 5: in this agreement by language that is specific and unambiguous.

1009
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 5: These retained company rates include, but are not limited to,

1010
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 5: the following examples. The right to direct and supervise the

1011
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 5: work of its employees. The right to hire, promote, demote, transfer,

1012
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 5: and too discipline or discharge employees. The right to create

1013
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 5: or eliminate jobs, and to determine wage rates for newly

1014
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 5: created or materially modify jobs. The right to determine training

1015
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 5: requirements and provide training to employees. The right to uniform

1016
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 5: and higher standards, the right to plan, direct, and control operations,

1017
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 5: the right to determine products to be sold, services and

1018
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:57,279
Speaker 5: products to be.

1019
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 3: Procured, used, and or distributed.

1020
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 5: The right to determine the type and quantity of machines, equipment,

1021
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 5: location of cafes. The right to determine the amount and

1022
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 5: quality of work needed. The right to determine schedules of

1023
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 5: cafe operations. The right to determine the number of employees needed.

1024
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 5: The right to determine the work schedule of employees. The

1025
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 5: right to lay off employees or relieve employees from work

1026
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 5: because of lack of work. The right to discontinue or

1027
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 5: introduce new or improved methods operating practices and cafes. The

1028
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 5: right to change the content of jobs and the qualification

1029
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 5: for such jobs. And the right to establish, modify, and

1030
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 5: enforce work rules of conduct or policies, and discipline employees

1031
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 5: who violate such rules or policies. The right to establish, modify, Oh,

1032
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 5: Jesus Christ and force.

1033
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 4: And I forgot how bad it is.

1034
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 5: Wow, Because basically what they're saying is we want to

1035
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 5: be able to control everything that you do, and this

1036
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 5: is our They never say where they believe this right

1037
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 5: comes from. They on make like an argument for naturalism,

1038
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 5: where like we are vested by the universal power of

1039
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:57,759
Speaker 5: management to be able to do this. They don't make

1040
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 5: any historical argument for it, where oh, this is you know,

1041
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,800
Speaker 5: because of the contracts that have been negotiated since the fifties,

1042
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 5: something that's fairly standard, and we think that we have

1043
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 5: the right too because of like long standing president. They

1044
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 5: just think that they should be able to control fucking everything. Yeah,

1045
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 5: which is not unsurprising for Nesley.

1046
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Well, and I think there's a lot of

1047
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 3: very very abstract theoretical debate you run into if you're like,

1048
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 3: instead of doing shit, you're like in theory circles about

1049
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 3: like oh is like is capital its own autonomous entity

1050
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 3: or is it like a thing that's like costantly in

1051
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 3: like relation to like the actions and workers. And it's like, okay,

1052
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 3: read something like this and it's like, oh no, they

1053
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 3: are so worried that they're going to have to react

1054
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 3: to what their workers are doing that they and they

1055
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 3: are already doing this right like this is you know,

1056
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 3: this is this goes back to the whole like worre's

1057
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 3: leaking to the media, We're going to sell the company

1058
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 3: thing that they're doing. Where it's like no, actually, like

1059
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 3: these people are so not like easily, but if you

1060
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,399
Speaker 3: were organized at all, it becomes so clear to them

1061
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,320
Speaker 3: that they actually, oh no, wait, hold on, they're responding

1062
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,359
Speaker 3: to us like they're not just purely the only thing

1063
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 3: that gets to like drive history for and decide literally

1064
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 3: everything about your life. The moment you like try to

1065
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 3: claw it away from them, they see how fragile it is,

1066
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 3: and they're like, no, no, no, no, Actually, we got to spell

1067
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 3: out the fact that we got to fucking dress you

1068
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 3: and whatever clothes we want you to wear. And it's like, okay,

1069
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 3: this is like a thing that only exists if you

1070
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 3: do not resist them at all, but like, no, if

1071
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 3: you fucking fight them, they have to fucking write all

1072
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 3: this shit down that they think they've always been able

1073
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 3: to do, and it's ridiculous.

1074
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 4: And to hear it all in a bullet form, like

1075
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 4: in literally just a bullet list, like every single aspect

1076
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 4: of my life and everything that I've ever loved or

1077
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 4: thought was important to me in a list of what

1078
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 4: they think they can control. It's just crazy. And then

1079
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 4: we have to go back and say, okay, well, do

1080
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 4: you see how off base you are? Yeah, And then

1081
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 4: they make us sound like the crazy ones for wanting

1082
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 4: to live a good life and be able to, like,

1083
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 4: you know, make ends.

1084
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 3: Meet, pay less than sixty percent over and come towards rent.

1085
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:07,479
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1086
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's take a vacation maybe.

1087
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1088
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 5: One other thing that I think is a great point

1089
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 5: about how it's actually capital responding to the organization of

1090
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 5: Barista's people workers whatever is. They haven't done it recently,

1091
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 5: but last summer they sent a very long winded and

1092
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 5: angry email about all the bargaining updates and press that

1093
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 5: the union was getting.

1094
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 4: They're so mad at me that I'm good at my job.

1095
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 5: And then this past summer, after we did two walkouts

1096
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 5: in fairly quick succession and response to two different things,

1097
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 5: they attempted to accuse us of an intermittent striking, just

1098
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 5: because they were so scared they didn't know what else.

1099
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 3: To do, to try and be like, you didn't own me,

1100
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 3: I'm not mad please some pot in the news that

1101
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 3: I met.

1102
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 5: Their lawyer even said in a bargaining session later on

1103
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 5: that he had a less than seventy five percent chance

1104
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 5: of ever winning that argument at the board.

1105
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

1106
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 5: But they were just so mad that we walked out

1107
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 5: twice in May that they tried to claim that it

1108
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 5: was unprotected, but that they're being benevolent by not disciplining

1109
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 5: anyone for it.

1110
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 3: God, And they.

1111
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 5: Haven't really given much of a response to our multi

1112
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 5: day strike yet, aside from their lawyer emailing us earlier

1113
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 5: this week to ask us for our entire legal justification

1114
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 5: for why the terminations of Abby, Nora and Ashley were

1115
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 5: illegal and what legal justification we have to say that

1116
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 5: they're negotiating a contract in bad faith, which is like

1117
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 5: the NLRA.

1118
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:49,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Like what are we doing here? God? Yeah?

1119
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 3: So what's coming up next for y'all? What's the next stage?

1120
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 5: If you or anybody that you know either works at

1121
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 5: a Blue Bottle or wants to apply to a Blue

1122
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 5: Bottle to help organize it, please reach out to us

1123
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 5: by email at Blue Bottle Union at gmail dot com.

1124
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 5: If you want to support our independent unionism and help

1125
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 5: us remain independent and be able to go on multiple

1126
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 5: day strikes which clearly piss off our NESTLEI overlords, you

1127
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 5: can donate to us at TinyURL dot com forward slash

1128
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 5: BBIU dash strike unless we're until we have a contract

1129
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 5: or they reinstate, Abby, Nora, Ashley, and fingers crossed, hopefully

1130
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 5: not myself.

1131
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 3: We're calling on a boycott of all Blue Bottle coffee products.

1132
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 5: Helly, I have no idea what the overlap between it

1133
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 5: could happen here listeners and.

1134
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 3: Customers, you'd be surprised. But I'm sure there's a lot

1135
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 3: of about there. I don't know. Look, judging by the

1136
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 3: shit I have heard from our listeners, I love you all.

1137
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 3: Some of you are on some wild shit if some

1138
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:49,439
Speaker 3: of you are not the people you would expect to be,

1139
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 3: so yeah, So don't buy Blue Bottle.

1140
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 5: If some of the things that we've said about the

1141
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 5: bargaining sessions sounds two absurd to be true to you,

1142
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 5: then you can go to Bluebottle Union dot org and

1143
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 5: under the tab for Buristas you can read every bargaining update,

1144
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 5: where we publish all of the proposals that the company

1145
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 5: has given us so far. You can read the shit

1146
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 5: that they make us read in the bargaining sessions. Yeah,

1147
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 5: so that's what's next in like the next month or so.

1148
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 5: There's other things that we're working on that we can't

1149
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 5: talk about yet.

1150
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 6: Hell yeah, hell.

1151
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, love this. I'm trying so hard not to just

1152
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 3: read half the end or speech Authority is the massive

1153
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 3: Tyranny is brittle.

1154
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 4: If there ever were a time to read it, there's

1155
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 4: no time like the present.

1156
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 3: You know what, Fuck it, We're just we're doing it.

1157
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 3: We're doing it. The imperial need for control is so

1158
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 3: desperate because it is so unnatural. Terity requires constant effort.

1159
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 3: It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the

1160
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 3: mask of fear. Remember that, and know this. The day

1161
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 3: will come when all these skirmishes, in battles, these moments

1162
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 3: of defiance, will have flooded the banks of the empire's authority,

1163
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 3: and then there will be one too many, one single

1164
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 3: thing will break the siege. Remember this, try and that's

1165
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 3: my message to you.

1166
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 8: Wall.

1167
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:14,560
Speaker 3: You can fight your own bosses too, and you can

1168
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 3: beat them, and you can watch them running around in

1169
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 3: terror like fucking chickens with their head cut off, and

1170
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,919
Speaker 3: you can get shited from them that they never would

1171
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:24,360
Speaker 3: have wanted to give you in the first place.

1172
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 7: So there's a revolution long forgotten that was tucked in

1173
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 7: a corner of the Caribbean. Those outside of the region,

1174
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 7: it's probably quite far from mind. You know. When most

1175
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 7: people think of Caribbean revolutionaries, they think of Cuba, but

1176
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 7: at the time the rise and fall of the need

1177
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 7: a revolution. What's everything? Hello, and welcome to ikea happen Here.

1178
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 7: I'm Andrew Siege. You're a Trinadian host of ikapen here,

1179
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 7: and I'm joined by.

1180
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 6: James, your American British co host.

1181
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 7: American British.

1182
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 6: But yeah, I don't really know how to say that, Like.

1183
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 7: Which order should that hyphene been?

1184
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, yeah, I don't know which way which way

1185
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 6: I'm supposed to hyphenate, because we don't hyphenate white people, uh,

1186
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 6: which is a very American thing. But yeah, glad to

1187
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 6: be here. I always enjoy learning more about this part

1188
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 6: of the world from you.

1189
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 7: I'm glad. I'm glad. And you know, as we speak,

1190
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 7: I'm hearing helicopters overhead. And no, it's really a reminder

1191
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 7: of the times that we are living in. Last night

1192
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 7: there were quite a few stealth helicopters flying overhead, quite

1193
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 7: close to the ground, about three of them. Wow, all

1194
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 7: the lights are off. So it's it seems to be

1195
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:04,960
Speaker 7: a ramping up and escalation in some ways, or just

1196
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 7: a continuation of the existing military presence.

1197
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 3: Jeez.

1198
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 7: And as we're talking about military presence, in the US,

1199
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 7: which is something that I spoke about on this podcast

1200
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 7: before you go and check it out. We're here to

1201
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 7: discuss the very recent history, positive and negative, of my

1202
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 7: northern neighbor, Grenada. So I don't want to bog anyone

1203
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 7: down with too many facts, but it's important to get

1204
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 7: an idea of the context. So Grenada is the southernmost

1205
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 7: in the grouping of Caribbean islands known as the Windward Islands.

1206
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 7: It's a country composed of Grenada, the island, and a

1207
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 7: few smaller islands, including Kariaku and Petimasnet. It's long been

1208
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 7: considered the Spice Isle, as the hilly mainland was and

1209
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 7: still is home to a lot of nutmeg plantations. They

1210
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 7: currently have a predominantly African population of just over one

1211
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 7: hundred and seventeen thousand, sharing a country merely three hundred

1212
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 7: and forty four kilometers squared or one hundred and thirty

1213
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:11,240
Speaker 7: three square miles. For reference, the five boroughs of New

1214
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:14,439
Speaker 7: York City collectively make up seven hundred and seventy eight

1215
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 7: point eighteen kilometers squared or three hundred point four to

1216
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 7: six square miles. So Grenada is small, you know, New

1217
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:25,000
Speaker 7: York is big. But Grenada is also quite small, you know.

1218
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 7: For reference, It's slightly larger than Queen's but far less

1219
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 7: populated and far less dense. So we's talking small island

1220
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 7: state par excellence. And yet it has sat at the

1221
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 7: center of one of the most critical events in Caribbean history,

1222
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:40,880
Speaker 7: and it might be one of the sites of yet

1223
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:44,360
Speaker 7: another such incident in light of the United States request

1224
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 7: to Grenada on October ninth to establish a temporary military

1225
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:52,280
Speaker 7: radar base at the infamous Maurice Bishop International Airport, a

1226
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 7: request which has not yet received a conclusive response more

1227
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 7: than a month later at the time of me recording this,

1228
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:01,800
Speaker 7: so I thought it apps to finally talk about this

1229
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 7: moment in history. I went to my library and got

1230
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:09,120
Speaker 7: a copy of Grenada Revolution and Invasion, a companium of

1231
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 7: essays from various perspectives on the topic arranged by Patty

1232
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 7: Lewis at al that provided the basis of my research,

1233
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 7: particularly the essay by Miil Collins, a Grenadian poet and novelist.

1234
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:22,720
Speaker 7: I also drew some of the radical background law from

1235
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 7: Fundy aka Joseph Edwards, an underappreciated autonomous radical healing from

1236
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 7: Jamaica who spoke about the situation in non shall escape

1237
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:35,600
Speaker 7: or linked in the show notes. So I don't want

1238
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:37,919
Speaker 7: to get too deep into the history prior to what's

1239
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 7: immediately relevant today's topic. Oh keep thinks brief A couple

1240
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 7: hundred Ammerindians lived in Grenada prior to the European invasion.

1241
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 7: Human settlement may have been as early as thirty five

1242
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:55,200
Speaker 7: hundred BCEE, but most definitely by the second century CE. Spain,

1243
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 7: upon stumbling upon it, claimed it but never settled it.

1244
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 7: England attempted to settle it, but was driven out by

1245
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 7: the indigenous inhabitants, and eventually the island was settled and

1246
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 7: subjugated by the French, who were engaged in a protracted

1247
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 7: war against the indigenous between today's Grenada, Dominica and Saint

1248
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 7: Vincent of the Grandians throughout the seventeenth century. You know,

1249
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:20,680
Speaker 7: there's this narrative that the Europeans came and they just

1250
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 7: easily conquered the entirety of the Americas, and it's important

1251
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 7: to lay that myth to rest. There was, of course,

1252
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 7: a very tragic great dyeing that was responsible for a

1253
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 7: vast majority of the indigenous population losing their lives to

1254
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 7: the disease in some cases intentionally weaponized by the Europeans,

1255
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:45,640
Speaker 7: but despite differences in their weaponry, the Europeans didn't have

1256
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:48,760
Speaker 7: an easy time conquering the islands, or conquering the Americas

1257
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 7: at all. In many cases they did not succeed in

1258
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 7: concrete islands for many decades or centuries or struggle, but

1259
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 7: eventually Crenado was established as a colony of over fifteen

1260
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 7: thousand slaved Africans by seventeen sixty three. A year prior,

1261
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 7: in seventeen sixty two, Britain took over the island from

1262
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 7: the French as part of the Seven Years' War, and

1263
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 7: the island was formally ceded to Britain in seventeen sixty three.

1264
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 7: By eighteen oh seven, Britain had brought one hundred and

1265
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 7: fourteen thousand slaves to Grenada. By eighteen thirty eight, slavery

1266
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:25,919
Speaker 7: was abolished. In eighteen seventy seven, Grenada became a Crown colony,

1267
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 7: and fast forward a little further. Under modified Crown colony status,

1268
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:35,040
Speaker 7: the wealthiest four percent of Canadians were allowed to vote.

1269
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:39,719
Speaker 7: Eric Geary founded the Grenader United Labor Party or GULP

1270
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 7: in nineteen fifty, initially as a trade union, which led

1271
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,120
Speaker 7: to the nineteen fifty one General Strike for better work

1272
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 7: than conditions. Buildings were set on fire in this time,

1273
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 7: and this is in a broader regional context of radicalism

1274
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 7: and agitation for independence in the post World War II reality,

1275
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 7: which would intensify after many of the islands had already

1276
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:08,200
Speaker 7: gained the independence. Eventually, Grenada got elections based on universal

1277
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 7: adult suffrage in nineteen fifty one and Eric Gary's party

1278
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 7: gulp on. This is before they got independence, though, in

1279
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 7: a time when the English speaking Caribbean was trying to

1280
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 7: establish a West Indies Federation between nineteen fifty eight and

1281
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:26,720
Speaker 7: nineteen sixty two. It didn't succeed. Jamaica succeeded, and then

1282
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 7: chernad so it fell apart, and after the fall of

1283
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:33,679
Speaker 7: the federation, Grenada became an associated state in nineteen sixty seven,

1284
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 7: then finally gained full independence from Britain in nineteen seventy four,

1285
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:41,599
Speaker 7: again under the leadership of Eric Gary, who became the

1286
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:45,599
Speaker 7: first Prime Minister of Grenada. The late sixties and early

1287
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 7: seventies were a radical time in general, so that's set

1288
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 7: in the stage for what comes next in Grenada. The

1289
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 7: rise of the New Jewel movement led by Maurice Bishop.

1290
01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,240
Speaker 7: You see, as FUNDI found. In this time, we also

1291
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:05,480
Speaker 7: had quite a few other confrontations going on across the Spanaphone, Francophone,

1292
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:09,360
Speaker 7: Dutch of Phone and Anglophone Caribbeans. In nineteen sixty five

1293
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:12,839
Speaker 7: you had the popular revolt in the Dominican Republic against

1294
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:16,280
Speaker 7: the military coup that was drowned in blood by the

1295
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:19,600
Speaker 7: US invasion. In nineteen sixty seven, you had a spontaneous

1296
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 7: rebellion of agricultural workers in Guadelup. Nineteen sixty eight, black

1297
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 7: folks in Bermuda rioted against the racist and clueless control

1298
01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:29,640
Speaker 7: it dominated the island. In nineteen sixty nine, there was

1299
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 7: a violent confrontation against US soldiers by students and workers

1300
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 7: protesting the US occupation of the Panama Canal Zone. Kurisau

1301
01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 7: was shaken by wildcatch, strikes of workers, riots by employed

1302
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 7: and unemployed as well. Labor unrest is breaking out in Surinam,

1303
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:49,040
Speaker 7: leading to general strike. Antiga had riots, strikes and demonstrations

1304
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:53,160
Speaker 7: over several years. Jamaica had workers at the Western Meatpackers

1305
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:57,360
Speaker 7: established democratic control of their trade union local, taking full

1306
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:01,080
Speaker 7: control over their union dues and negotiating the employer without

1307
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 7: official mediators to manage the sugar workers and the local

1308
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:10,839
Speaker 7: community directly, and of course infamously. In nineteen seventy Triniad

1309
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 7: was shaken up as workers, academics and small farmers linked

1310
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,280
Speaker 7: up against the system led by the government of Prime

1311
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 7: Minister Eric Williams, and after years of his rule under

1312
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:26,040
Speaker 7: the Sloga and Master Day Done, the people erupted against

1313
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:29,439
Speaker 7: the new or colonial system. Despite being ruled by this

1314
01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:32,680
Speaker 7: black leader, the hundreds of people in the streets championed

1315
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:37,000
Speaker 7: black power, understanding what was needed was a people's politics

1316
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 7: in which new institutions could emerge. This black power revolution

1317
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 7: in Trindad was inspired in part by the black civil

1318
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:46,760
Speaker 7: rights struggle in the United States, while also seeking into

1319
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:50,599
Speaker 7: unite the African and Indian populations in Trinad. After an

1320
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:54,360
Speaker 7: attempted mutiny by the army and Venezuela and American gun

1321
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:57,960
Speaker 7: boats standing by ready to intervene, the military surrendered. The

1322
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 7: revolutionary initiative shifted away from the man and doctor Derk

1323
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:05,680
Speaker 7: Williams was saved. By nineteen seventy three, a few armed

1324
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:09,519
Speaker 7: gorillas remained in the hills of Trinidad, but Eventually, their

1325
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 7: struggle was snuffed out. By nineteen seventy five, in Guadeloupe

1326
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 7: had wildcat strikes taking place. Guyana had wildcat strikes against

1327
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:22,400
Speaker 7: the American and Canadian owned Boux Side companies. Surinam had

1328
01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:26,720
Speaker 7: another general strike. Saint Lucia experience with wildcat strike. Dominica

1329
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:31,919
Speaker 7: attempted to seize the British owned Castle Bruce Estates. In Jamaica,

1330
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 7: there was a wave of appropriations from banks, warehouses, stores,

1331
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:40,720
Speaker 7: batting shops and more cross Kingston and demonstrations initiated by

1332
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 7: students and workers against police brutality and for the release

1333
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 7: of prisoners. And in nineteen seventy nine Nicaragua had their

1334
01:12:47,880 --> 01:13:01,760
Speaker 7: revolution against the US Allied government. While all of this

1335
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:04,920
Speaker 7: is going on, Grenada had a population of less than

1336
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:09,439
Speaker 7: one hundred thousand people. It had just become independent under

1337
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 7: Eric Geary and are Gary's an interesting fella because you'll

1338
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:19,519
Speaker 7: see some aspects of him mirrored later on. He came

1339
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 7: to power in nineteen fifty one with the wave of

1340
01:13:24,120 --> 01:13:27,240
Speaker 7: universal suffrage. He was twenty nine years all at the time.

1341
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:30,360
Speaker 7: He had previously been a worker organizer in Aruba and

1342
01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:33,360
Speaker 7: was expelled from the island for that very reason. He

1343
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:37,240
Speaker 7: spent decades in politics as a champion of agricultural workers.

1344
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:41,639
Speaker 7: But younger generations were not as excited about him. They

1345
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:47,040
Speaker 7: recognized his financial corruption, his pensiont for rigged elections, and

1346
01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:50,800
Speaker 7: of course his use of secret police that were repressive

1347
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 7: to the people. So as greators making steps towards becoming independent,

1348
01:13:57,000 --> 01:14:00,120
Speaker 7: the people did not want him to be the leader

1349
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:04,759
Speaker 7: of independence. There were strikes against him even before the ravation.

1350
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 7: But see Gary was karen on this tradition that was

1351
01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:10,559
Speaker 7: set up by the British. Whether he knew it or not,

1352
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 7: he and may have had this radical start as a

1353
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 7: worker organizer, but he came to carry on colonial interests.

1354
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:20,479
Speaker 7: You know. He started off as a union man, but

1355
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:24,920
Speaker 7: he turned against the workers, and even the British at

1356
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 7: one point had been scared of him as an organizer

1357
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:31,880
Speaker 7: and had trepidations about him as an independent leader. But

1358
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:35,639
Speaker 7: they still chose him and preferred him at the risk

1359
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:38,400
Speaker 7: of maybe a more radical version of him leading an

1360
01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:45,240
Speaker 7: independent grenader. And then came the New Dual Movement. Now

1361
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:48,520
Speaker 7: the New Jewel movement is actually a combination of two groups.

1362
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 7: You had the movement for assemblies of the People, which

1363
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:54,799
Speaker 7: was founded by Maurice Bishop, a lawyer who had studied

1364
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:58,760
Speaker 7: in Britain. And you had the joint endeavor for welfare

1365
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:02,640
Speaker 7: education and the or a Jewel which is founded by

1366
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:07,599
Speaker 7: Howard University economic student Unison Whitman. They were also joined

1367
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:11,360
Speaker 7: by Bernard Cord, an economics lecturer at UIs in Augustin

1368
01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:15,280
Speaker 7: in Trinando, Tobago. So at first, in terms of their politics,

1369
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:18,679
Speaker 7: they really wanted popular assemblies and that sort of thing.

1370
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 7: But actually, let me get into the background of the

1371
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 7: Caribbean left. I see in the nineteen fifties there was

1372
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:28,479
Speaker 7: an upheaval. You know, radicals had been shifting from the

1373
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:31,519
Speaker 7: sort of Stalinism that had become popular in the post

1374
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:37,360
Speaker 7: War two era towards a more critical sort of Trotskyism

1375
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 7: or Maoism see lar James and George Patmore, both based

1376
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:46,759
Speaker 7: in London, were already advocating independence for Africa and the Caribbean,

1377
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 7: rejecting the Stalinist idea that liberation should wait until after

1378
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:55,240
Speaker 7: World War Two see. R. James is an interesting figure

1379
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 7: politically to me because while he was ostensibly a Trotskyist,

1380
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:02,880
Speaker 7: he was in many ways unorthodox in his approach to

1381
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:04,200
Speaker 7: those politics.

1382
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:08,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, Cela James's book Trying to Remember. It's called Beyond

1383
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:10,800
Speaker 6: a Boundary or Beyond the Boundary.

1384
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:11,520
Speaker 7: Beyond the Boundary.

1385
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:14,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a great books. The only book about cricket

1386
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:16,320
Speaker 6: that I've ever read, and that's the only one that

1387
01:16:16,360 --> 01:16:19,400
Speaker 6: I've ever enjoyed. Not a big cricket appreciate it, but

1388
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:23,000
Speaker 6: as a sports historian that that book was foundational to

1389
01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:27,519
Speaker 6: like how I how I approached my dissertation, and like

1390
01:16:28,400 --> 01:16:31,080
Speaker 6: as such, I've always had a really like a soft

1391
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 6: spot for him as someone who you know, did sports

1392
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 6: for a living in academia for a living. I saw

1393
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 6: like a really positive example of the role that both

1394
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:42,599
Speaker 6: of those can play in like liberation struggles in his writing. Yeah, Yeah,

1395
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:44,800
Speaker 6: it's when I'd encourage everyone to read if you're looking

1396
01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:47,320
Speaker 6: for a book. It's like his writing is very readable,

1397
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:51,080
Speaker 6: in his historical writing, like which I at the time

1398
01:16:51,120 --> 01:16:52,479
Speaker 6: of my life, when I was in grad school, I

1399
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:55,200
Speaker 6: very much appreciated someone who wrote something that wasn't like

1400
01:16:56,160 --> 01:16:59,080
Speaker 6: self consciously trying to be dense and impenetrable to make

1401
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:03,759
Speaker 6: them seem intelligent faced. His intelligence comes through just fine.

1402
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:07,400
Speaker 7: Indeed, Indeed, I've had a soft spot for him as

1403
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:11,400
Speaker 7: well for some time, particularly after reading The Black Yakabins.

1404
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:13,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, he used to assign that one a lot.

1405
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:17,640
Speaker 7: And I would say that the Caribbean left at the

1406
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:19,679
Speaker 7: time also had a bit of a soft spot for him,

1407
01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:23,519
Speaker 7: because they were heavily influenced by his writings, you know,

1408
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:28,000
Speaker 7: in his nineteen fifty six pamphlet Face and Reality, which

1409
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:31,880
Speaker 7: was about the Hungarian Revolution, ended up becoming a profound

1410
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:37,000
Speaker 7: influence on Westerndian radicals as it had revealed the potential

1411
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:41,240
Speaker 7: of workers' counsils and done a lot to expose the

1412
01:17:41,280 --> 01:17:46,240
Speaker 7: authoritarianism of the Soviet model. This is something that Bundy

1413
01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 7: wrote about and highlighted as he's given his sort of

1414
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 7: discussion of the origins and trajectory of the Caribbean Left.

1415
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 7: So in the nineteen sixties and seventies, radical thought across

1416
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:02,280
Speaker 7: the Caribbean was shaped by the more democratic socialist ideals.

1417
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:06,640
Speaker 7: They had movements like Jamaica's Young Socialist League, Trindad's New

1418
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:10,599
Speaker 7: Beginning Movement, and Creator's New Duel Movements. They were all

1419
01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:14,559
Speaker 7: inspired by James and by grassroots workers' councils rather than

1420
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:20,519
Speaker 7: the typical Soviet orthodoxy. Of course, the Caribbean left was

1421
01:18:20,600 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 7: not immune to conflict or division. There were conflicts between

1422
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:29,760
Speaker 7: those who were more loyal to stylists or pro Soviet positions,

1423
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:35,120
Speaker 7: and that led to some splits within unions and political movements. Now,

1424
01:18:35,160 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 7: initially the New Dual Movement was leaning in that participatory

1425
01:18:39,280 --> 01:18:42,720
Speaker 7: democratic direction, but eventually they ended up going in to

1426
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:46,639
Speaker 7: studying Marxism Leninism more not really at first they mainly

1427
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:51,000
Speaker 7: wanted Gary out, but later they went into Marxism Leninism

1428
01:18:51,160 --> 01:18:54,840
Speaker 7: and transformed the movement into a proper political party of

1429
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:59,360
Speaker 7: the vanguard variety. In an effort to unseat Gary. They

1430
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:05,320
Speaker 7: started building some momentum and immediately based consequences. In nineteen

1431
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:09,080
Speaker 7: seventy three, Bishop Whiteman and others got beaten up and

1432
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:13,960
Speaker 7: arrested by Gary's secret police multiple times. Bishop's own father

1433
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:18,519
Speaker 7: was shot and killed by Gary's forces. Wow and the

1434
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:21,320
Speaker 7: high schoolers were also taking a stand against Gary at

1435
01:19:21,320 --> 01:19:25,719
Speaker 7: the time, were facing repression and violence. Now, in nineteen

1436
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:30,400
Speaker 7: seventy four, independence was one, but sadly under Gary and

1437
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:34,000
Speaker 7: his notorious secret police, which were by the way, called

1438
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:39,400
Speaker 7: the Mongoose Gang. Now, there was already suspicions of potential

1439
01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 7: election fraud, and it wasn't helped by the fact that

1440
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:47,600
Speaker 7: his mongoose gang was known to intimidate people. But in

1441
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:52,160
Speaker 7: nineteen seventy six, despite this for a political landscape, Bishop

1442
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:56,400
Speaker 7: won a leadership role as opposition and became known across

1443
01:19:56,400 --> 01:19:59,360
Speaker 7: the country in our country as small as as grenader,

1444
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:04,760
Speaker 7: as someone charismatic, personable, relatable. The New Jeal movement started

1445
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:07,479
Speaker 7: to build a reputation for being connected to the people,

1446
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:11,639
Speaker 7: engage with students, engage with pro bono work. In some cases,

1447
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:14,880
Speaker 7: as I mentioned, some of them are lawyers, and they

1448
01:20:14,920 --> 01:20:17,639
Speaker 7: were youthful. They're bringing a youthful energy to the sort

1449
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:22,800
Speaker 7: of old god colonial era politics of Eric Gary and

1450
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:35,680
Speaker 7: his ILK. So the story of how the New jew

1451
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:40,360
Speaker 7: Movement came into power is actually a bit humorous to me.

1452
01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:45,120
Speaker 7: On the thirteenth of March nineteen seventy nine, Gary went

1453
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:48,240
Speaker 7: to the UN meeting in New York that was happening

1454
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:50,800
Speaker 7: at the time, and as the saying goes, when the

1455
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:54,840
Speaker 7: cat's away, the mice will play. In this case, while

1456
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:57,400
Speaker 7: the cat was away, the New Dual Movement pulled off

1457
01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:01,479
Speaker 7: a coup, a completely bloodless coup. They to control of

1458
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:04,240
Speaker 7: the army, barracks and the radio. When they went on

1459
01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 7: the radio, and this is the funny part to me,

1460
01:21:06,680 --> 01:21:09,519
Speaker 7: they told people to go to police stations and demand

1461
01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:13,600
Speaker 7: that they put up white flags of surrender. And the

1462
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:16,040
Speaker 7: population was so anti geary that they did it. Wow,

1463
01:21:16,040 --> 01:21:18,559
Speaker 7: they just walked up in civilize stations and they're like, yeah,

1464
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,200
Speaker 7: put up these white flags, and the police shid. Yeah,

1465
01:21:21,280 --> 01:21:25,000
Speaker 7: sure that was that. That's how the neudeal movement came

1466
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:25,599
Speaker 7: into power.

1467
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:28,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, a, this is such a fascinating time in history, right,

1468
01:21:29,040 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 6: Like I used to teach a class about culturing colonialism

1469
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:34,920
Speaker 6: back in the day, and we would talk a lot

1470
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:38,400
Speaker 6: about like this time period, like the post wind Rush

1471
01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:44,679
Speaker 6: period where like Caribbean political culture was very influential even

1472
01:21:44,720 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 6: in the metropoli, right in Britain specifically, Like this is

1473
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:54,120
Speaker 6: when we have like scar music and then punk music

1474
01:21:54,439 --> 01:21:57,400
Speaker 6: arriving from that, which is a serious political force in

1475
01:21:57,479 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 6: the twentieth century. Like it's easy for people to let

1476
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:02,400
Speaker 6: sniff at that whatever. But and that's the reason I

1477
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:04,920
Speaker 6: am the way I am so like, I guess I

1478
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:08,720
Speaker 6: have a fondness for it. But also like the state's

1479
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:16,200
Speaker 6: capacity for violence and surveillance hasn't caught up to the

1480
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:20,280
Speaker 6: capacity for mass communication yet. And so you have these

1481
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:23,880
Speaker 6: movements which can mobilize a ton of people and the

1482
01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:28,639
Speaker 6: state isn't like all up in them with informers and like.

1483
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 6: It can either respond as a Soviet Union did in

1484
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:35,479
Speaker 6: Hungry right, with tanks that's where we get the word

1485
01:22:35,479 --> 01:22:39,320
Speaker 6: tanky from, or it can crumble like by people turning

1486
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:40,639
Speaker 6: up of the cops to surrender.

1487
01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:40,840
Speaker 7: Like.

1488
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:45,360
Speaker 6: It's just a fascinating, like little to three decade period

1489
01:22:45,439 --> 01:22:49,840
Speaker 6: in history before the state I guess recovers its advantage

1490
01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:51,680
Speaker 6: in terms of violence and surveillance.

1491
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:56,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm of that this time because I mean they

1492
01:22:56,080 --> 01:22:59,880
Speaker 7: didn't have the social media and stuff to connect people

1493
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:05,160
Speaker 7: and you know, advertise they were having this this proof

1494
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:08,680
Speaker 7: test or this action or this whatever. Yeah, but the

1495
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:11,479
Speaker 7: networks were still there. You know, they were organic and

1496
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:18,960
Speaker 7: they were motivated by a genuine sense that seriative was actionable.

1497
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:19,439
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1498
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:21,479
Speaker 7: You know, I think we have this sort of twenty

1499
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 7: first century malays of cynicism. It's like that was tried before,

1500
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:29,760
Speaker 7: you know. Yeah, every time we look at something, we

1501
01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:32,040
Speaker 7: could just say, oh, that was tried before, and they failed.

1502
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:35,320
Speaker 7: When we look back at history, people who tried those things.

1503
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:36,720
Speaker 7: They didn't know if it was going to work out

1504
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:39,719
Speaker 7: or not. They just tried it. I wouldn't be surprised

1505
01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:41,800
Speaker 7: if I was a fly on the wall on the

1506
01:23:41,920 --> 01:23:45,240
Speaker 7: day of the school if the neudual movement guys were

1507
01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:50,479
Speaker 7: just like, wait, what that actually worked? Yeah, exactly, Like

1508
01:23:50,640 --> 01:23:53,120
Speaker 7: not to take away from their plan and an organization

1509
01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:57,760
Speaker 7: and you know, the genuine grassroots support that they had.

1510
01:23:58,479 --> 01:23:59,679
Speaker 7: It's still a swing.

1511
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:02,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, totally. At some point you have to roll the

1512
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:06,800
Speaker 6: dice right and see how it goes, Like in this case.

1513
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:10,040
Speaker 7: The role of critical success, I'd see, yeah, yeah, it's.

1514
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:14,800
Speaker 6: A natural twenty the dragon's term. So I'd really like

1515
01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:16,280
Speaker 6: to ned out in this period. This is like the

1516
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:19,760
Speaker 6: heyday of pirate radio, right where you have people broadcasting

1517
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:23,360
Speaker 6: but like outside of state control. And it's a really

1518
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:28,000
Speaker 6: interesting time for culture and music. Like scar music explicitly

1519
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:32,240
Speaker 6: explicitly begins in an anti racist way, right, Like it

1520
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:36,360
Speaker 6: calls itself two tone of music because bands were often

1521
01:24:36,439 --> 01:24:39,760
Speaker 6: look multi racial, and like, it's really interesting that we

1522
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:43,800
Speaker 6: have this whole cultural movement which owes a lot to

1523
01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:47,320
Speaker 6: the wind Rush generation. But like you said, it's questioning

1524
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:53,360
Speaker 6: the both capitalist and also Marxist orthodoxies in a way

1525
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:56,200
Speaker 6: that I know I really wish. I mean a lot

1526
01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:59,080
Speaker 6: of people do today, don't get me wrong, but I

1527
01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:01,160
Speaker 6: wonder if we could all those people now, that you'd

1528
01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:04,759
Speaker 6: have people who were like dedicated vanguard mark shifts again,

1529
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:09,719
Speaker 6: like you know, it just seems say sad noise.

1530
01:25:11,160 --> 01:25:13,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I think we could say the same

1531
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:16,760
Speaker 7: thing about a lot of people's current politics. I'm sure

1532
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:19,080
Speaker 7: if you went back in the past and were like,

1533
01:25:19,160 --> 01:25:21,960
Speaker 7: you know, people are actually trying to be trod wives

1534
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:25,080
Speaker 7: right now in twenty five you want to talk to

1535
01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:27,320
Speaker 7: the woman who had like no ability to open a

1536
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:30,880
Speaker 7: bank account, and we're trying to escape financial abuse, to

1537
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:33,200
Speaker 7: rest abuse, all these different things, and they're like, oh,

1538
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:38,880
Speaker 7: you know, there's actually a whole internet a trend of like, yeah,

1539
01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:42,720
Speaker 7: your husband should control all your finances. Actually yeah, I mean,

1540
01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:45,519
Speaker 7: of course that kind of sentiment never went away, but

1541
01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:48,880
Speaker 7: it's popularization definitely debunks. I think this sort of notion

1542
01:25:49,120 --> 01:25:54,400
Speaker 7: that that progress quote unquote is something that is inevitable

1543
01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 7: or irreversible.

1544
01:25:56,120 --> 01:25:58,519
Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely, Yeah, that's right. I mean you can even

1545
01:25:58,520 --> 01:26:01,760
Speaker 6: travel across the world and I can only imagine how

1546
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:04,000
Speaker 6: that would be received in Russia ava right to tell

1547
01:26:04,040 --> 01:26:07,040
Speaker 6: their friends in the women's movement that there are Western

1548
01:26:07,040 --> 01:26:09,000
Speaker 6: women who aspire to be tradwife. I mean, I'm sure

1549
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:13,680
Speaker 6: they're aware they have the Internet, but yeah, it's certainly yeah,

1550
01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:15,760
Speaker 6: this idea that we can only progress or move in

1551
01:26:15,800 --> 01:26:16,320
Speaker 6: one duration.

1552
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:19,799
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's how the New Droal movement came into power,

1553
01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:25,200
Speaker 7: and upon getting to that position, they established the People's

1554
01:26:25,360 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 7: Revolutionary Government or PRG, which is led now by the

1555
01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:35,800
Speaker 7: Prime Minister of Grenader Maurice Bishop. They were considered legitimate,

1556
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:40,720
Speaker 7: of course, because they did have the people's mandate, but

1557
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:45,360
Speaker 7: they opted not to solidify that legitimacy with an election,

1558
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:50,880
Speaker 7: and they also went on to ban other parties. So

1559
01:26:51,720 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 7: in the next episode, I want to get into what

1560
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:58,519
Speaker 7: exactly they did when they were in power in broad strokes,

1561
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:01,760
Speaker 7: all they hit and miss with the economy and politics

1562
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 7: over the course of their four years, and how it

1563
01:27:04,040 --> 01:27:08,880
Speaker 7: culminated in an internal split, multiple killings, and a US

1564
01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:11,599
Speaker 7: in vision. But if you want the details and how

1565
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:14,599
Speaker 7: all that played out, you'll have to tune in next time.

1566
01:27:15,200 --> 01:27:18,040
Speaker 7: We'll get into the outcome of the PRG, the flaws,

1567
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:22,519
Speaker 7: the revolution, it's downfall, and where Grenia stands today. But

1568
01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:26,920
Speaker 7: before we wrap up, any final thoughts, James.

1569
01:27:27,439 --> 01:27:29,000
Speaker 6: I feel okay, Yeah, I just had lots of them.

1570
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:32,400
Speaker 6: I don't know. Yeah, this is a fascinating period and

1571
01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:37,080
Speaker 6: like now, as much as there ever has been, it's

1572
01:27:37,120 --> 01:27:40,200
Speaker 6: a vital time for us to study this rightly. As

1573
01:27:40,240 --> 01:27:42,920
Speaker 6: the person who's taught in American schools and universities, this

1574
01:27:42,960 --> 01:27:46,080
Speaker 6: one doesn't come up very much. It's certainly not like

1575
01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 6: in the required teaching syllabi in anywhere that I've taught.

1576
01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:53,799
Speaker 6: And I think as we return to like Monroe Doctrine

1577
01:27:53,880 --> 01:27:57,640
Speaker 6: two point zero or whatever, whatever we're doing the United States,

1578
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:01,400
Speaker 6: it's doing in the Western hemisphe right now, it's vital

1579
01:28:01,439 --> 01:28:07,320
Speaker 6: to understand the role it has played in suppressing progressive

1580
01:28:07,320 --> 01:28:09,479
Speaker 6: political movements in the last century.

1581
01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:12,799
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think, you know, as you mentioned, it's already

1582
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:17,599
Speaker 7: in the typical history and historical accounts that it's taught

1583
01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:22,040
Speaker 7: to students. It's just I think I'm marveled sometimes at

1584
01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:26,760
Speaker 7: you know, that's that's exactly how empire functions. Yeah, you know,

1585
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:29,639
Speaker 7: the acts forgets what the tree remembers is the famous

1586
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:33,439
Speaker 7: say it so something like the US's operations and Grenada

1587
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:36,040
Speaker 7: or anywhere else in the world, in all the many

1588
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:40,240
Speaker 7: places they've intervened, I may not even muster a passing

1589
01:28:40,320 --> 01:28:43,960
Speaker 7: mention and a sentenence even in a historical class, in

1590
01:28:43,960 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 7: a history class the United States, And yet it is

1591
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:50,800
Speaker 7: pivotal to the histories and self identities up to the

1592
01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:54,960
Speaker 7: present day of entire regions and people's You know, it

1593
01:28:55,000 --> 01:29:00,720
Speaker 7: may be a footnote, if so much, in these curriculums

1594
01:29:00,760 --> 01:29:03,280
Speaker 7: in the United States, but it's one of the most

1595
01:29:04,160 --> 01:29:09,200
Speaker 7: recent and raw incidents of violence and trauma thats take

1596
01:29:09,240 --> 01:29:10,400
Speaker 7: place in the Caribbean.

1597
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:11,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1598
01:29:11,200 --> 01:29:13,759
Speaker 7: Absolutely, and they're not independent history.

1599
01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:18,479
Speaker 6: Yeah. When Trump was first assuming office this time, there

1600
01:29:18,520 --> 01:29:21,000
Speaker 6: was a brief moment when they were talking about returning

1601
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:24,200
Speaker 6: to colonizing Panama. If you can cast your mind that

1602
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 6: far back, he has flood.

1603
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 7: The zone quite successfully. But I do recall that.

1604
01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 6: But yeah, I had been in Panama two months before that.

1605
01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:34,960
Speaker 6: And I think the United States, a large portion of

1606
01:29:34,960 --> 01:29:37,639
Speaker 6: the population either doesn't know or is forgotten that, like

1607
01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:43,320
Speaker 6: independence from American sort of neo colonialism, is integral to

1608
01:29:43,400 --> 01:29:46,120
Speaker 6: Panamanian identity. Like I don't think they'd realized quite how

1609
01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:49,960
Speaker 6: unwilling to accept going back to that Panamanian people.

1610
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:55,680
Speaker 7: Were, Yeah, there's a long struggle, yes, to eke out independence.

1611
01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:58,960
Speaker 7: I mean even now there's you know, US New Kleans,

1612
01:29:58,960 --> 01:30:02,080
Speaker 7: Somemos alive and well in Panama in many ways. Yeah,

1613
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:05,599
Speaker 7: but what gains they have yain is you know, something

1614
01:30:05,960 --> 01:30:07,280
Speaker 7: they're not well then to lose.

1615
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:11,519
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, And yeah, I mean the United States supports

1616
01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:14,400
Speaker 6: people through Panama. The Biden administration sent its Secretary of

1617
01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:19,800
Speaker 6: Homeland Security to the inauguration of the Panamanian president. The

1618
01:30:20,439 --> 01:30:27,920
Speaker 6: US funds Panamanian deportations did under the Biden administration, including

1619
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:31,000
Speaker 6: of people who have no criminal record, Like, we have

1620
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:35,760
Speaker 6: effectively externalized our border regime to Panama in the way

1621
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:39,120
Speaker 6: that we've also done to the Dominican Republic and Haiti. Right, Like,

1622
01:30:39,960 --> 01:30:41,880
Speaker 6: I guess what I'm saying is I don't want people

1623
01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:43,880
Speaker 6: to think that this is a one off that like

1624
01:30:44,520 --> 01:30:49,599
Speaker 6: either the Trump stuff is a massive leap from previous policy.

1625
01:30:50,040 --> 01:30:52,400
Speaker 6: It's a change in scale, not in kind, or that

1626
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:55,799
Speaker 6: that you know, the United States hasn't done this before,

1627
01:30:55,880 --> 01:30:58,040
Speaker 6: and it has some history of doing this in the

1628
01:30:58,080 --> 01:30:58,839
Speaker 6: Western hemisphere.

1629
01:30:59,600 --> 01:31:05,519
Speaker 7: Indeed, so on that rather depressing note, Yeah, well we'll

1630
01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:09,400
Speaker 7: leave it here for it could happen here, but you

1631
01:31:09,439 --> 01:31:11,680
Speaker 7: can join us for the next episode, when we will

1632
01:31:11,720 --> 01:31:15,320
Speaker 7: get into exactly what took place in Grenada and where

1633
01:31:15,479 --> 01:31:19,600
Speaker 7: Grenada stands today. Till then we'll power to all the

1634
01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:40,640
Speaker 7: people peace. Hello, and welcome to it could happen here.

1635
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:45,920
Speaker 7: I'm Andrew Sage, your host, and I'm joined by James again.

1636
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:48,799
Speaker 6: Excited to be here again. I enjoyed the last episode.

1637
01:31:49,040 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 7: Yes, another host of it could happen here. There are

1638
01:31:51,400 --> 01:31:58,880
Speaker 7: two of us, so James's American and British or British

1639
01:31:58,920 --> 01:32:04,960
Speaker 7: America and how we want to order that? And I'm Trinidadian,

1640
01:32:05,680 --> 01:32:07,120
Speaker 7: as you may or may not be able to tell,

1641
01:32:07,800 --> 01:32:11,280
Speaker 7: but in Trinidad there are actually a lot of Grenadians

1642
01:32:11,360 --> 01:32:15,040
Speaker 7: and descendants of Grenadians. Between our islands. It has been

1643
01:32:15,040 --> 01:32:19,880
Speaker 7: a lot of population exchange, mostly in one direction. But

1644
01:32:20,280 --> 01:32:23,080
Speaker 7: we're here to talk about a notable point in the

1645
01:32:23,240 --> 01:32:26,679
Speaker 7: history for my neighbor in Ireland, Grenada. If you missed

1646
01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:28,439
Speaker 7: part one, you should go and give it a listen.

1647
01:32:29,040 --> 01:32:32,840
Speaker 7: The gist is that, after drawn out efforts to gain independence,

1648
01:32:32,960 --> 01:32:36,960
Speaker 7: Grenada finally did so in nineteen seventy four, but unfortunately,

1649
01:32:37,160 --> 01:32:40,640
Speaker 7: under the rule of Eric Geary, an oppressive fixture of

1650
01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:44,880
Speaker 7: politics that the people want it out. The underdog, the

1651
01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:48,160
Speaker 7: New Jewel Movement, led by Maurice Bishop, pulled off a

1652
01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:51,599
Speaker 7: blood less coup while Gary was at a UN meeting

1653
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:55,840
Speaker 7: in New York, and thus the People's Revolutionary Government was formed,

1654
01:32:56,280 --> 01:32:59,880
Speaker 7: led by Prime Minister Marie Bishop. The managed to stay

1655
01:33:00,080 --> 01:33:03,320
Speaker 7: in power from nineteen seventy nine to nineteen eighty three.

1656
01:33:04,000 --> 01:33:05,840
Speaker 7: So today we're talking about what they did in that

1657
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:10,040
Speaker 7: time and what happened next, including the infamous US invasion

1658
01:33:10,160 --> 01:33:13,639
Speaker 7: that is so often a footnote of history and its

1659
01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:17,800
Speaker 7: aftermath on the people of Grenada that lasts up to

1660
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:21,040
Speaker 7: this day. Once again, the research for this episode leans

1661
01:33:21,120 --> 01:33:24,599
Speaker 7: on Grenada Revolution and invasion by Pati Lewis at Al

1662
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:31,840
Speaker 7: along with None Should Escape by Joseph Edwards aka fundly So.

1663
01:33:32,080 --> 01:33:34,800
Speaker 7: Fresh off the victory of the New Jewel Movement, the

1664
01:33:34,920 --> 01:33:38,880
Speaker 7: temperature of the populace was varied but excited. You had

1665
01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:44,000
Speaker 7: people who had genuine revolutionary aspirations, people who were passionately

1666
01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:47,200
Speaker 7: anti imperialists, and then the people who just wanted better

1667
01:33:47,280 --> 01:33:50,439
Speaker 7: health care and education and didn't really care where who

1668
01:33:50,520 --> 01:33:51,080
Speaker 7: it came from.

1669
01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:53,120
Speaker 3: And on that note, I.

1670
01:33:53,120 --> 01:33:55,600
Speaker 7: Would say that It's something that often flies under the

1671
01:33:55,720 --> 01:34:02,000
Speaker 7: radar or escapes awareness in the discourse because the most passionate,

1672
01:34:02,160 --> 01:34:05,679
Speaker 7: the most invested, the most prominent voices, allthough we tend

1673
01:34:05,720 --> 01:34:09,880
Speaker 7: to hear, the vast majority of people pretty much go

1674
01:34:10,040 --> 01:34:14,240
Speaker 7: with the flow. You know, they keep their heads down,

1675
01:34:14,360 --> 01:34:18,080
Speaker 7: their focus tends to be on their immediate needs, their

1676
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:22,960
Speaker 7: immediate interests. And you have the idea logues in every camp,

1677
01:34:23,000 --> 01:34:26,560
Speaker 7: but of every persuasion who are aiming to push the

1678
01:34:26,640 --> 01:34:30,439
Speaker 7: country in a particular direction. But at least at this

1679
01:34:30,560 --> 01:34:33,920
Speaker 7: point in time, there was an ambivalence towards the how,

1680
01:34:34,400 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 7: the political how much of the population they just needed

1681
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:41,920
Speaker 7: to see the results. And for a lot of people

1682
01:34:42,520 --> 01:34:46,040
Speaker 7: in the present day, the change, the revolution, or whatever

1683
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:48,040
Speaker 7: you want to call it, isn't going to come from

1684
01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:58,240
Speaker 7: an ideological transformation, well worded argument or arrangement of you know, prose.

1685
01:34:59,200 --> 01:35:02,920
Speaker 7: It's going to come from a lived experience where their

1686
01:35:03,200 --> 01:35:06,599
Speaker 7: life has improved in some way, in some form or fashion,

1687
01:35:07,240 --> 01:35:10,759
Speaker 7: by action by a project that actually puts the change

1688
01:35:10,800 --> 01:35:14,599
Speaker 7: into practice. And so that's really what the New Dual

1689
01:35:14,640 --> 01:35:17,519
Speaker 7: Movement had been about from the beginning. Being part of

1690
01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:20,800
Speaker 7: the community, being part of the people, taking part in,

1691
01:35:21,280 --> 01:35:23,640
Speaker 7: you know, supporting them, which is why they had the

1692
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:27,120
Speaker 7: popular mandate. And then once they got into power, a

1693
01:35:27,200 --> 01:35:30,560
Speaker 7: lot of their efforts were focused on, indeed, trying to

1694
01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:36,439
Speaker 7: actually put into place and alternatives for all the flaws

1695
01:35:36,479 --> 01:35:38,880
Speaker 7: that it may have had and not get to that shortly,

1696
01:35:39,640 --> 01:35:42,320
Speaker 7: and that they did, you know, they organized the Center

1697
01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:46,400
Speaker 7: for Popular Education, they organized teacher training, and sought to

1698
01:35:46,439 --> 01:35:50,120
Speaker 7: make secondary schools and colleges more accessible to people. They

1699
01:35:50,200 --> 01:35:55,639
Speaker 7: introduced maternity leave for women, yes, although notably party members

1700
01:35:55,760 --> 01:35:59,840
Speaker 7: who were women were pressured to come back to work

1701
01:36:00,560 --> 01:36:04,679
Speaker 7: maybe after having children. So again we'll get to those flaws.

1702
01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:09,439
Speaker 7: There was still an equality in pay between men and women,

1703
01:36:09,640 --> 01:36:12,320
Speaker 7: but the New Dual Movement did make efforts to mandate

1704
01:36:12,400 --> 01:36:19,600
Speaker 7: equal pay and to engage in some changes toward addressing

1705
01:36:19,640 --> 01:36:23,599
Speaker 7: the inequality between men and women in the country. However,

1706
01:36:24,160 --> 01:36:27,320
Speaker 7: a revolution was still needed within the revolution, as it

1707
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:31,120
Speaker 7: has tended to be across these revolutions, you know, across

1708
01:36:31,160 --> 01:36:35,080
Speaker 7: these years usual stuff. Women were still doing the most

1709
01:36:35,120 --> 01:36:38,479
Speaker 7: of the housework and both sexes were expected to take

1710
01:36:38,520 --> 01:36:41,560
Speaker 7: part in political engagement. So you had women in the

1711
01:36:41,680 --> 01:36:44,800
Speaker 7: party in the New Dual Movement, but it was a

1712
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:49,960
Speaker 7: sort of an expectation of equality in some respects, like yeah,

1713
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:52,599
Speaker 7: come out to work even though you just had STrenD

1714
01:36:52,960 --> 01:36:55,679
Speaker 7: because everybody else is coming on to work. And yet

1715
01:36:56,080 --> 01:36:58,280
Speaker 7: it was like, oh, yeah, you can keep on doing

1716
01:36:58,320 --> 01:37:01,720
Speaker 7: the housework. We're not gonna take on our load there.

1717
01:37:02,160 --> 01:37:06,280
Speaker 6: Yep, it's funny. I finished my book recently, but they

1718
01:37:06,320 --> 01:37:09,480
Speaker 6: have a chapter on gender, and there's this a communist

1719
01:37:09,800 --> 01:37:13,360
Speaker 6: militant in Spain who was fighting at the front line.

1720
01:37:13,880 --> 01:37:16,320
Speaker 6: But also they would saddled with that double burden, right

1721
01:37:16,360 --> 01:37:19,960
Speaker 6: because women were expected to be the ones amongst, especially

1722
01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:24,400
Speaker 6: amongst the communists, who cooked and cleaned in addition to fighting.

1723
01:37:25,320 --> 01:37:26,960
Speaker 6: But she has this famous line where she says, so

1724
01:37:26,960 --> 01:37:28,599
Speaker 6: I didn't join the military to die with a dish

1725
01:37:28,640 --> 01:37:34,720
Speaker 6: cloth in my hand, which that's great. Yeah, it's a

1726
01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:35,080
Speaker 6: good one.

1727
01:37:35,120 --> 01:37:35,720
Speaker 3: I like it a lot.

1728
01:37:36,360 --> 01:37:41,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, But flaws with engaging with gender aside. There

1729
01:37:41,320 --> 01:37:43,920
Speaker 7: will of course, other things the usual movement was doing

1730
01:37:44,040 --> 01:37:48,120
Speaker 7: that was positive. You know, they encouraged agricultural diversification and

1731
01:37:48,240 --> 01:37:52,840
Speaker 7: local food production, moving away from that sort of exclusive

1732
01:37:53,080 --> 01:37:56,479
Speaker 7: or ne exclusive dependence on nutneg production. Then I defined

1733
01:37:56,520 --> 01:37:59,080
Speaker 7: the colonial period. You know, they got rid of the

1734
01:37:59,160 --> 01:38:02,960
Speaker 7: old Westminster style parliamentary system in favor of a one

1735
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:07,240
Speaker 7: party system with some elements of mass democracy. Now, the

1736
01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:12,880
Speaker 7: degree to which that democracy actually empowered people is debatable,

1737
01:38:13,720 --> 01:38:19,080
Speaker 7: but there were, you know, efforts on the record. You know,

1738
01:38:19,160 --> 01:38:22,559
Speaker 7: they organized public meetings to discuss the national budget. They

1739
01:38:22,640 --> 01:38:26,200
Speaker 7: set up workers and youth and women's and farmers organizations,

1740
01:38:27,479 --> 01:38:32,200
Speaker 7: and unfortunately, even though Bishop was influenced by Celar James,

1741
01:38:32,920 --> 01:38:36,880
Speaker 7: he continued to pursue the sort of hierarchical leadership common

1742
01:38:37,160 --> 01:38:42,320
Speaker 7: in Caribbean politics. And so even with these alternative organizations,

1743
01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:45,519
Speaker 7: you had that kind of hierarchy. But I think that

1744
01:38:45,680 --> 01:38:50,760
Speaker 7: is to be expected from any movement besides anarchism. Yeah,

1745
01:38:51,520 --> 01:38:55,479
Speaker 7: so I can't say I'm surprised. They closed the independent

1746
01:38:55,560 --> 01:39:00,519
Speaker 7: newspaper Torchlights after an article highlighting Erastoferian protest and lack

1747
01:39:00,560 --> 01:39:05,439
Speaker 7: of representation in government. So there were efforts to ensure

1748
01:39:05,560 --> 01:39:11,040
Speaker 7: that Brener moved towards secularism, but freedom of the press

1749
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:16,400
Speaker 7: was not something that was particularly high in the priorities,

1750
01:39:17,120 --> 01:39:22,120
Speaker 7: and there were still prejudices against religious groups and movements

1751
01:39:22,200 --> 01:39:27,479
Speaker 7: like the Rastiferians that had yet to be addressed. You know,

1752
01:39:27,600 --> 01:39:32,479
Speaker 7: these things aren't dealt with overnight. But right, I think

1753
01:39:32,920 --> 01:39:36,240
Speaker 7: when all you have is a hammer, everything can sort

1754
01:39:36,240 --> 01:39:40,080
Speaker 7: of look like a nail. Yeah, they didn't do anything

1755
01:39:40,240 --> 01:39:43,960
Speaker 7: too drastic in the economic scale. For the most part.

1756
01:39:44,040 --> 01:39:50,000
Speaker 7: They left people's private businesses alone. They implemented some state enterprises,

1757
01:39:50,080 --> 01:39:53,879
Speaker 7: and they implemented some cooperative enterprises, So a fairly standard

1758
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:58,080
Speaker 7: mixed economy, a mixed economy that Canterverian extents be found

1759
01:39:58,160 --> 01:40:01,560
Speaker 7: throughout the Caribbean weather they had a revolution or not.

1760
01:40:02,400 --> 01:40:05,840
Speaker 7: But they did establish cooperative and friendly relations with Cuba,

1761
01:40:06,360 --> 01:40:08,880
Speaker 7: which was a real thorn on the side of the

1762
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:09,639
Speaker 7: United States.

1763
01:40:11,120 --> 01:40:12,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, he didn't like them.

1764
01:40:12,960 --> 01:40:16,280
Speaker 7: And now this is I would say from nineteen seventy

1765
01:40:16,360 --> 01:40:19,639
Speaker 7: nine to nineteen eighty so their first two years in power,

1766
01:40:20,200 --> 01:40:24,160
Speaker 7: people were nerva sited, you know, they were hopeful of

1767
01:40:24,240 --> 01:40:30,280
Speaker 7: the genuine decolonization and positive change taking place. But the excitement,

1768
01:40:30,479 --> 01:40:34,880
Speaker 7: part of the NEUVA sitement started to die down by

1769
01:40:34,960 --> 01:40:39,280
Speaker 7: nineteen eighty one. The People's Revolutionary Government PRG became increasingly

1770
01:40:39,479 --> 01:40:43,880
Speaker 7: militaristic as time went on. They organized militias and armed people.

1771
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:47,600
Speaker 7: They were essentially preparing for a Geary counter coup, but

1772
01:40:47,800 --> 01:40:52,959
Speaker 7: also potential CIA involvement. The police were replaced with military personnel.

1773
01:40:53,640 --> 01:40:56,760
Speaker 7: And I think this is the trap that a lot

1774
01:40:56,840 --> 01:41:01,080
Speaker 7: of these projects end up falling into. This concer about

1775
01:41:01,160 --> 01:41:07,800
Speaker 7: the enemy within the enemy without leads these revolutionaries to

1776
01:41:08,479 --> 01:41:14,360
Speaker 7: cannibalize themselves, you know, the revolutionary potential and excite ones

1777
01:41:15,040 --> 01:41:20,040
Speaker 7: that's curtailed because there's so much fear dominating that some

1778
01:41:20,320 --> 01:41:23,640
Speaker 7: enemy is going to attack, some violence is going to

1779
01:41:23,720 --> 01:41:25,519
Speaker 7: take place that they need to prepare for. And so

1780
01:41:25,640 --> 01:41:29,080
Speaker 7: you over your miilitarize, ru militarize, and you stare the

1781
01:41:29,280 --> 01:41:31,880
Speaker 7: course of the project away from its original intentions to

1782
01:41:31,960 --> 01:41:34,400
Speaker 7: a point where it's not even recognizable to the people

1783
01:41:34,479 --> 01:41:38,680
Speaker 7: who initiated it. Yeah, you know, I'm not saying that

1784
01:41:39,120 --> 01:41:45,639
Speaker 7: they weren't right to be wary of US intervention. History

1785
01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:50,280
Speaker 7: has demonstrated as much. But it was something that the

1786
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:54,120
Speaker 7: people of the country were becoming increasingly concerned about because

1787
01:41:54,200 --> 01:42:00,719
Speaker 7: it's a small country and it's uncommon, you know, just unusual.

1788
01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:07,360
Speaker 7: It's unnerving to see militia's marching on your street. Now,

1789
01:42:07,400 --> 01:42:10,519
Speaker 7: the Mutual movement was starting to become more focused on

1790
01:42:10,720 --> 01:42:15,080
Speaker 7: establishing a vanguard core, the more they oriented themselves toward

1791
01:42:15,240 --> 01:42:19,479
Speaker 7: Marxism lenders, so like I mentioned before, they were making

1792
01:42:19,520 --> 01:42:22,480
Speaker 7: this shift away from the sort of popular mass democracy

1793
01:42:22,720 --> 01:42:25,240
Speaker 7: that people like see Lar James was talking about. The

1794
01:42:25,360 --> 01:42:28,639
Speaker 7: more they read and they studied the works of Marxism lenders,

1795
01:42:29,439 --> 01:42:32,479
Speaker 7: and there were people within the party who became more

1796
01:42:32,520 --> 01:42:35,840
Speaker 7: and more convinced. Again, remember the end positions of power

1797
01:42:36,080 --> 01:42:38,840
Speaker 7: this point in time, so in positions of power, and

1798
01:42:39,000 --> 01:42:43,240
Speaker 7: you're reading theoretical justifications for why you need to be

1799
01:42:43,360 --> 01:42:46,240
Speaker 7: in power. You know you will stand by those theoretical

1800
01:42:46,360 --> 01:42:51,200
Speaker 7: justifications because it lines up with your interests, your self

1801
01:42:51,280 --> 01:42:55,360
Speaker 7: interests to you know, further your position of power, and

1802
01:42:55,439 --> 01:42:59,240
Speaker 7: the continuation of your role as an authority, as a leader.

1803
01:43:00,080 --> 01:43:04,600
Speaker 7: And so this vanguard call that they were pursuing, it

1804
01:43:04,720 --> 01:43:09,879
Speaker 7: ended up creating a hierarchy of in group and outgroup.

1805
01:43:10,160 --> 01:43:12,360
Speaker 7: You had the people who were in the vanguard the

1806
01:43:12,400 --> 01:43:14,679
Speaker 7: people who were out of the vanguard who didn't get picked,

1807
01:43:14,720 --> 01:43:17,320
Speaker 7: We didn't make the cut. You know, it felt snubbed.

1808
01:43:18,120 --> 01:43:21,040
Speaker 7: And this was facilities and it was fostering this an

1809
01:43:21,120 --> 01:43:24,679
Speaker 7: air of secrecy that people in the country were beginning

1810
01:43:24,720 --> 01:43:27,840
Speaker 7: to resent and lose trust in. Because imagine you going

1811
01:43:27,920 --> 01:43:31,360
Speaker 7: from this sort of popular engagement with the people as

1812
01:43:31,479 --> 01:43:34,400
Speaker 7: you you know, take part in these efforts to push

1813
01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:38,080
Speaker 7: Gary out of power. Then you have this sort of secrecy,

1814
01:43:38,160 --> 01:43:40,799
Speaker 7: you have this sort of militarism. They're started to remind

1815
01:43:40,960 --> 01:43:43,920
Speaker 7: people a bit of the exact Geary government that they

1816
01:43:44,000 --> 01:43:47,759
Speaker 7: wanted out. Then two major events took place in nineteen

1817
01:43:47,760 --> 01:43:50,080
Speaker 7: eighty one. There was a bombing under the stage of

1818
01:43:50,120 --> 01:43:53,160
Speaker 7: a rally that killed some mutes, and there was a

1819
01:43:53,280 --> 01:43:56,880
Speaker 7: car ambustion as well. Both of these incidents were blamed

1820
01:43:57,040 --> 01:44:01,880
Speaker 7: on counter revolutionaries in the country. That famous buzzworth, that

1821
01:44:01,960 --> 01:44:07,920
Speaker 7: famous catchphrase, that famous justification for any and every response. Yeah.

1822
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:10,840
Speaker 7: So it further pushed the country and really the whole

1823
01:44:10,960 --> 01:44:16,200
Speaker 7: society into this culture of suspicion and repression and also

1824
01:44:16,280 --> 01:44:19,760
Speaker 7: resentment for the New Dual movement. The New Jeal movement

1825
01:44:19,800 --> 01:44:23,000
Speaker 7: wasn't responsible for the bombans, but you can imagine people

1826
01:44:23,040 --> 01:44:25,720
Speaker 7: were probably saying when they were at the parlor by

1827
01:44:25,760 --> 01:44:29,679
Speaker 7: the grocery, you know, out by the bar down the street,

1828
01:44:29,680 --> 01:44:32,760
Speaker 7: they're saying, you know, at least they didn't have any

1829
01:44:32,800 --> 01:44:35,680
Speaker 7: bombits under Gary. You know, at least didn't have these

1830
01:44:35,720 --> 01:44:39,800
Speaker 7: combitions under Gary. Gary wasn't nice, but we didn't have

1831
01:44:39,960 --> 01:44:46,080
Speaker 7: terrorist attacks. And the sort of transparency and engagement people

1832
01:44:46,120 --> 01:44:51,040
Speaker 7: were accustomed to were starting to evaporate. The New Dual

1833
01:44:51,120 --> 01:44:53,720
Speaker 7: movement was starting to be seen by some as a

1834
01:44:53,800 --> 01:44:57,880
Speaker 7: secret society. And if your society is already small, right,

1835
01:44:58,000 --> 01:45:01,799
Speaker 7: just about one hundred thousand people, Yeah, having a secret

1836
01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:06,280
Speaker 7: society within that small society where everybody knows everybody, that's

1837
01:45:06,360 --> 01:45:11,839
Speaker 7: not good, especially when the revolution is so new, so nationed.

1838
01:45:12,600 --> 01:45:15,800
Speaker 7: You need people's trust, and especially as well because people

1839
01:45:15,880 --> 01:45:20,920
Speaker 7: were not ideologically for Marxism Leninism, most of them, that is,

1840
01:45:21,320 --> 01:45:24,600
Speaker 7: they were't ideologically for Marxism Leniness and they were ideologically

1841
01:45:25,360 --> 01:45:29,880
Speaker 7: neutral movement advocates. They just wanted Eric Garry out and

1842
01:45:29,960 --> 01:45:33,479
Speaker 7: they wanted improve once their living conditions. They didn't have

1843
01:45:33,560 --> 01:45:37,160
Speaker 7: a particular political ideology. They were committed too. And in

1844
01:45:37,280 --> 01:45:40,240
Speaker 7: this time, you know, the Caribbean is part of the

1845
01:45:40,280 --> 01:45:42,439
Speaker 7: rest of the world. The Cribbean is paying attention, has

1846
01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:44,280
Speaker 7: to pay attention to what's happening in the rest of

1847
01:45:44,280 --> 01:45:48,240
Speaker 7: the world, and especially within northern neighbor the United States

1848
01:45:48,240 --> 01:45:51,720
Speaker 7: of America, and it's very influenced at that point in time.

1849
01:45:51,760 --> 01:45:55,839
Speaker 7: We're talking the late seventies early eighties Cold War rhetoric

1850
01:45:56,479 --> 01:45:59,320
Speaker 7: that people are getting in the media. The American media

1851
01:45:59,439 --> 01:46:02,080
Speaker 7: was still very and continue to be very prominent in

1852
01:46:02,240 --> 01:46:07,120
Speaker 7: terms of what Cribbean people consume because we are English speaking.

1853
01:46:07,160 --> 01:46:10,160
Speaker 7: The Americans and English speaking, and they have far more resources,

1854
01:46:10,200 --> 01:46:12,519
Speaker 7: so their media comes to us, and a lot of

1855
01:46:12,560 --> 01:46:15,479
Speaker 7: the narratives that Caribbean people get come in a recent

1856
01:46:15,560 --> 01:46:20,320
Speaker 7: part from American narratives. So these Cold War era narratives

1857
01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:24,640
Speaker 7: about communism as a scare word was something that had

1858
01:46:24,720 --> 01:46:29,919
Speaker 7: yet to be addressed through actual demonstration of what communism

1859
01:46:30,000 --> 01:46:33,360
Speaker 7: could actually be for people. You know, people weren't worn

1860
01:46:33,479 --> 01:46:37,840
Speaker 7: over on communism yet, it was still unfamiliar, and in

1861
01:46:37,960 --> 01:46:41,400
Speaker 7: this time you really needed people who were open, who

1862
01:46:41,400 --> 01:46:45,360
Speaker 7: were accommodating, who were showing people what it meant in practice,

1863
01:46:46,080 --> 01:46:49,960
Speaker 7: who were, you know, sort of disarming these notions that

1864
01:46:50,360 --> 01:46:54,360
Speaker 7: could serve as obstacles towards people's buying into the struggle.

1865
01:46:54,800 --> 01:46:58,400
Speaker 7: I'm saying this as a non Marxist Lendness. I'm putting

1866
01:46:58,400 --> 01:47:00,400
Speaker 7: myself in those shoes. If I'm trying to get people

1867
01:47:01,000 --> 01:47:04,320
Speaker 7: invested in as convinced of this, that sort of secrecy

1868
01:47:05,040 --> 01:47:06,839
Speaker 7: it doesn't push things in a post the trajectory.

1869
01:47:07,160 --> 01:47:10,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's easy for the population to perceive that you've

1870
01:47:10,439 --> 01:47:14,280
Speaker 6: replaced one elite with another elite, right, especially in post

1871
01:47:14,320 --> 01:47:18,439
Speaker 6: colonial movements, when when we do this exactly so it's

1872
01:47:18,439 --> 01:47:20,240
Speaker 6: a transparent word for one, you know.

1873
01:47:20,720 --> 01:47:22,639
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean not to say that people didn't see

1874
01:47:22,680 --> 01:47:26,720
Speaker 7: the differences. Yes, correct, they went away the nuances. They

1875
01:47:26,760 --> 01:47:28,840
Speaker 7: could tell the difference between an Eric Gary and a

1876
01:47:28,920 --> 01:47:32,640
Speaker 7: more respecial They can tell the difference between you know,

1877
01:47:33,200 --> 01:47:35,880
Speaker 7: one form of politics and another. It's not that they

1878
01:47:35,920 --> 01:47:38,960
Speaker 7: were just ready to court immediately. I mean some of

1879
01:47:39,000 --> 01:47:42,280
Speaker 7: them still had the fresh wounds of the trauma being

1880
01:47:42,320 --> 01:47:44,720
Speaker 7: inflicted by Eric Garry. Yeah, but it's because of that

1881
01:47:44,840 --> 01:47:49,320
Speaker 7: trauma they were also sensitive to the potential of new traumas.

1882
01:47:49,479 --> 01:47:54,680
Speaker 7: Ye call it paranoia, call it unesst and and right

1883
01:47:54,800 --> 01:47:58,680
Speaker 7: thinking suspicion. But they were they were wary of what

1884
01:47:58,880 --> 01:48:01,360
Speaker 7: was taking place. Yeah, and you know it didn't help.

1885
01:48:02,240 --> 01:48:04,200
Speaker 7: It didn't help that. Okay. So you know some people

1886
01:48:05,200 --> 01:48:08,800
Speaker 7: they read like one or two theory books and they

1887
01:48:08,880 --> 01:48:12,519
Speaker 7: start walking around like their head is three times bigger

1888
01:48:12,600 --> 01:48:15,240
Speaker 7: than it is. They start walking around this kind of

1889
01:48:15,280 --> 01:48:17,160
Speaker 7: inflated sense of self importance.

1890
01:48:17,520 --> 01:48:19,759
Speaker 6: Yes, I'm very familiar with that kind of person.

1891
01:48:20,439 --> 01:48:24,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, Unfortunately, that's exactly what started taking place among some

1892
01:48:25,040 --> 01:48:28,120
Speaker 7: members of the party. They're reading all these books, all

1893
01:48:28,160 --> 01:48:31,680
Speaker 7: these thick books from Russia and June and Marx and

1894
01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:35,519
Speaker 7: Lenin and all these people's and they're starting to carry

1895
01:48:35,560 --> 01:48:39,640
Speaker 7: themselves in a particular way. Yeah, with a level of

1896
01:48:39,840 --> 01:48:43,560
Speaker 7: arrogance and nowhere to illness. And you know, and this

1897
01:48:43,680 --> 01:48:47,759
Speaker 7: is we're in a society. We remember, we are fresh

1898
01:48:47,880 --> 01:48:52,639
Speaker 7: out of colonialism. You know, none of our independent nations

1899
01:48:52,880 --> 01:48:55,600
Speaker 7: or even one hundred years old. Yet much of the

1900
01:48:55,680 --> 01:48:59,560
Speaker 7: population still remember that colonial period. Yeah, and much of

1901
01:48:59,600 --> 01:49:03,400
Speaker 7: the popular, like I mentioned before, needed changes the education

1902
01:49:03,560 --> 01:49:07,760
Speaker 7: system because they didn't have educational opportunities. So you had

1903
01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:13,519
Speaker 7: this vast educational inequality, right, and then you have this

1904
01:49:13,680 --> 01:49:15,840
Speaker 7: new jeal movement and some of its members are talking

1905
01:49:15,880 --> 01:49:18,439
Speaker 7: to you like you're stupid. Yeah, because you didn't get

1906
01:49:18,479 --> 01:49:20,640
Speaker 7: to go to primary school, you didn't read all the

1907
01:49:20,720 --> 01:49:22,040
Speaker 7: thick books that they were, or you didn't get to

1908
01:49:22,040 --> 01:49:23,800
Speaker 7: go to secondary school, or you didn't get to go

1909
01:49:23,880 --> 01:49:26,439
Speaker 7: to university, and so you don't know all the big

1910
01:49:26,560 --> 01:49:28,840
Speaker 7: words and you haven't read all the thick texts that

1911
01:49:28,920 --> 01:49:31,960
Speaker 7: they have read. And it could rub people the wrong way.

1912
01:49:32,439 --> 01:49:38,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, yes, right, Yeah, there can be too much theory.

1913
01:49:38,760 --> 01:49:42,680
Speaker 6: I think that often is too much theory, especially when

1914
01:49:42,720 --> 01:49:45,720
Speaker 6: it creates this idea right that reading is what distinguishes

1915
01:49:45,760 --> 01:49:50,240
Speaker 6: one as a revolutionary right as opposed to doing or

1916
01:49:50,479 --> 01:49:54,560
Speaker 6: just knowing and caring, and it did a downfall of

1917
01:49:54,720 --> 01:49:55,439
Speaker 6: many movements.

1918
01:49:56,320 --> 01:49:59,479
Speaker 7: Indeed, I think if you're coming from the background that

1919
01:49:59,600 --> 01:50:02,880
Speaker 7: some of the this neutual movement members were coming from,

1920
01:50:03,439 --> 01:50:05,400
Speaker 7: you need to put in that extra effort not to

1921
01:50:05,880 --> 01:50:08,759
Speaker 7: dumb things down per se. You still want to respect

1922
01:50:08,760 --> 01:50:11,799
Speaker 7: people's intelligence, but you have to be away of the dynamic.

1923
01:50:12,320 --> 01:50:15,040
Speaker 7: It's something that I myself have to work on, you know,

1924
01:50:15,680 --> 01:50:18,639
Speaker 7: because I think it's a sort of curse of knowledge

1925
01:50:18,680 --> 01:50:20,639
Speaker 7: where you read so much that you take for granted

1926
01:50:21,120 --> 01:50:23,320
Speaker 7: what you know. You know, you read to a point

1927
01:50:23,360 --> 01:50:28,559
Speaker 7: where you almost forget that this is not common knowledge

1928
01:50:28,760 --> 01:50:31,800
Speaker 7: or this word may be unfamiliar to a lot of people,

1929
01:50:32,479 --> 01:50:35,240
Speaker 7: and you really have to be cognizant of it, especially

1930
01:50:35,240 --> 01:50:37,560
Speaker 7: as you approaching people and make sure you're talking to

1931
01:50:37,600 --> 01:50:40,200
Speaker 7: them in their language. They don't feel as though they're

1932
01:50:40,200 --> 01:50:41,840
Speaker 7: carrying yourself too big fabriages.

1933
01:50:42,560 --> 01:50:45,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely, like the people who write the thick books

1934
01:50:45,920 --> 01:50:48,960
Speaker 6: can't be your like milieu. You know, they can't be there.

1935
01:50:49,000 --> 01:50:51,800
Speaker 6: I've used a stupid word. But like, if those are

1936
01:50:51,840 --> 01:50:54,639
Speaker 6: the people with whom you're sort of conversing in your head,

1937
01:50:54,640 --> 01:50:58,120
Speaker 6: and then you begin to speak in that language to

1938
01:50:58,240 --> 01:51:01,599
Speaker 6: people who aren't familiar with it, just sounds weird. Yeah,

1939
01:51:02,280 --> 01:51:05,680
Speaker 6: like it's yeah, as you said, you get too big

1940
01:51:05,760 --> 01:51:08,800
Speaker 6: for your bridges, and you some pompous if you're not.

1941
01:51:08,840 --> 01:51:23,920
Speaker 7: Careful exactly exactly, and so for the you know, big

1942
01:51:24,040 --> 01:51:26,400
Speaker 7: shot lawyer again all the time, and she kind of

1943
01:51:26,400 --> 01:51:28,840
Speaker 7: as I say this, for big shot lawyers like Marie

1944
01:51:28,880 --> 01:51:34,000
Speaker 7: Bishop and a big shot economics lecturers like Bernard Cord

1945
01:51:34,320 --> 01:51:36,599
Speaker 7: and some of the other folks that had been part

1946
01:51:36,680 --> 01:51:38,960
Speaker 7: of the core of the party, they had to approach

1947
01:51:38,960 --> 01:51:40,960
Speaker 7: to people in a particular way, and they were successful

1948
01:51:40,960 --> 01:51:43,680
Speaker 7: in doing so under Eric Garry and as they were

1949
01:51:43,720 --> 01:51:47,240
Speaker 7: part of you opposition. But things were shifted also the

1950
01:51:47,280 --> 01:51:49,720
Speaker 7: two in the of the eighties, we had a lot

1951
01:51:49,760 --> 01:51:55,560
Speaker 7: of moves again suspected counter revolutionaries, imprisonment without trial. To

1952
01:51:55,640 --> 01:51:58,280
Speaker 7: imagine again, people are thinking, this is what the monk

1953
01:51:58,280 --> 01:52:01,800
Speaker 7: who's gang two point zero? Yeah, the fair was starting

1954
01:52:01,880 --> 01:52:05,320
Speaker 7: to overtake, the society was starting to become cannibalizing. As

1955
01:52:05,320 --> 01:52:07,400
Speaker 7: I said, so by the time we get to nineteen

1956
01:52:07,400 --> 01:52:10,320
Speaker 7: eighty three, we find ourselves with the people bereft of

1957
01:52:10,360 --> 01:52:13,960
Speaker 7: the early days of hope, in a house divided, which

1958
01:52:14,400 --> 01:52:19,479
Speaker 7: famously cannot stand unbeknowns to the public, there were tensions

1959
01:52:19,479 --> 01:52:22,559
Speaker 7: between Maurice Bishop and Bernard Cord since at least nineteen

1960
01:52:22,600 --> 01:52:26,000
Speaker 7: eighty two, and Chord wasn't even part of the central

1961
01:52:26,040 --> 01:52:29,080
Speaker 7: Committee of the Neutral Movement anymore for a while, but

1962
01:52:29,200 --> 01:52:33,479
Speaker 7: within the vanguard the party members still preferred Cord to Bishop.

1963
01:52:34,280 --> 01:52:37,280
Speaker 7: Cord was seen as more intellectually equipped to lead with

1964
01:52:37,400 --> 01:52:41,640
Speaker 7: his knowledge of theory. They started calling Bishop egotistics and

1965
01:52:41,800 --> 01:52:44,880
Speaker 7: counter revolutionary. And I have to say, I love the

1966
01:52:45,520 --> 01:52:49,320
Speaker 7: double edged sword of these kind of willingly thought to

1967
01:52:49,479 --> 01:52:52,960
Speaker 7: meet and cliches, because they can be used by you

1968
01:52:53,080 --> 01:52:55,320
Speaker 7: and then they could be used against you. In a

1969
01:52:56,080 --> 01:52:57,400
Speaker 7: staple of his fingers.

1970
01:52:57,800 --> 01:53:00,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, I did. It goes back to your finger, hammers

1971
01:53:00,680 --> 01:53:02,080
Speaker 6: and nails that you mentioned before.

1972
01:53:03,000 --> 01:53:06,360
Speaker 7: Indeed, so eventually the party decided to bring Court on

1973
01:53:06,560 --> 01:53:10,680
Speaker 7: as co leader with Bishop. Originally Bishop agreed, but this

1974
01:53:10,760 --> 01:53:15,200
Speaker 7: started great tensions. Things managed recently, but after a while

1975
01:53:15,280 --> 01:53:18,280
Speaker 7: Bishop was turned to push back against the co leadership arrangement,

1976
01:53:18,720 --> 01:53:21,479
Speaker 7: and the party started seeing it as him favoring his

1977
01:53:21,600 --> 01:53:25,320
Speaker 7: own ascendancy over the collective of unity and son. He

1978
01:53:25,360 --> 01:53:28,400
Speaker 7: went to Germany. He left the country on a trip.

1979
01:53:29,280 --> 01:53:30,840
Speaker 7: Don't worry. There was none of the coole this time,

1980
01:53:30,880 --> 01:53:34,000
Speaker 7: at least not yet. When he went to Germany on

1981
01:53:34,120 --> 01:53:37,519
Speaker 7: a trip, came back, there was not a welcome party

1982
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:43,000
Speaker 7: for him. Things were coming to her head. The party

1983
01:53:43,320 --> 01:53:45,560
Speaker 7: did not have his back anymore. He could feel it.

1984
01:53:46,160 --> 01:53:49,479
Speaker 7: But he did know that the people still had his back.

1985
01:53:49,960 --> 01:53:53,439
Speaker 7: But he knows he's charismatic, he knows people love him,

1986
01:53:54,160 --> 01:53:56,400
Speaker 7: and so all of a sudden, this is in nineteen

1987
01:53:56,439 --> 01:53:59,680
Speaker 7: eighty three, by the way, a rumor was swollen that

1988
01:54:00,080 --> 01:54:04,719
Speaker 7: Cord wanted to kill Bishop. Yeah. It's a dangerous rumor,

1989
01:54:04,800 --> 01:54:07,639
Speaker 7: you know. It shatters this facade of a united front

1990
01:54:07,680 --> 01:54:09,960
Speaker 7: that had carried the revolution. They had carried the government

1991
01:54:10,000 --> 01:54:12,880
Speaker 7: for so long. But since most people loved Bishop, as

1992
01:54:13,000 --> 01:54:15,080
Speaker 7: he rightfully assumed, in fact, they were not for this

1993
01:54:15,200 --> 01:54:15,960
Speaker 7: name basis with him.

1994
01:54:16,280 --> 01:54:16,720
Speaker 6: That's cool.

1995
01:54:17,080 --> 01:54:20,679
Speaker 7: They weren't seeing Prime Minister Bishop, your honorable Prime Minister Bishop.

1996
01:54:21,200 --> 01:54:24,000
Speaker 7: It was hey, Maurice, like that boy, Maurice.

1997
01:54:24,760 --> 01:54:28,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's always a good sign. Like, it's one of

1998
01:54:28,400 --> 01:54:32,720
Speaker 6: the positive marks of the of the Revolutionarjava, right, is

1999
01:54:32,760 --> 01:54:35,320
Speaker 6: that everyone is a friend and everyone's preferred to germanly

2000
01:54:35,360 --> 01:54:38,400
Speaker 6: by their first name, and it's always kind of yeah,

2001
01:54:39,240 --> 01:54:43,440
Speaker 6: I've seen enough read enough about you know, revolutions supposing

2002
01:54:43,480 --> 01:54:45,800
Speaker 6: a revolutionary hierarchy. So that's always a good sign, I

2003
01:54:45,840 --> 01:54:46,200
Speaker 6: feel like.

2004
01:54:46,880 --> 01:54:47,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2005
01:54:48,400 --> 01:54:53,520
Speaker 7: So, meanwhile, you had Cord who people didn't have the

2006
01:54:53,600 --> 01:54:56,920
Speaker 7: same kind of relationship with. Yeah, you know, as far

2007
01:54:56,960 --> 01:55:01,760
Speaker 7: as they're concerned, he's an anemino because of that rumor. Yeah,

2008
01:55:02,800 --> 01:55:05,520
Speaker 7: and the party actually suspected that it was Bishop that

2009
01:55:05,640 --> 01:55:10,120
Speaker 7: started the rumor. In fact, his own personal bodyguards suspected it,

2010
01:55:10,920 --> 01:55:14,240
Speaker 7: but Bishop himself denied it. Whether he did or did

2011
01:55:14,280 --> 01:55:17,760
Speaker 7: not start the rumor, we don't know. But the party

2012
01:55:17,880 --> 01:55:21,960
Speaker 7: was insulted by his movements and put him under house arrest.

2013
01:55:22,840 --> 01:55:23,600
Speaker 6: What what.

2014
01:55:25,760 --> 01:55:28,880
Speaker 7: Right now? But he did this shocked.

2015
01:55:30,440 --> 01:55:32,120
Speaker 6: Like a shot, And that's that's that's.

2016
01:55:32,040 --> 01:55:35,800
Speaker 7: How the people were feeling it, Like what prime minister arrested?

2017
01:55:35,880 --> 01:55:40,640
Speaker 7: You could do that, That's the thing. So you see,

2018
01:55:40,680 --> 01:55:43,520
Speaker 7: the Vanguard, with all that secrecy at this point in time,

2019
01:55:43,680 --> 01:55:47,120
Speaker 7: was operating on information that was not made available to

2020
01:55:47,200 --> 01:55:50,400
Speaker 7: the people. And the people who were pissed at the party.

2021
01:55:50,440 --> 01:55:54,880
Speaker 7: You know, the cracks in this political arrangement with essentially

2022
01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:59,040
Speaker 7: a secret society on top, were starting to show. The people,

2023
01:56:00,080 --> 01:56:05,280
Speaker 7: generally speaking, regardless of what the party wanted, wanted Maurice Bishop.

2024
01:56:05,480 --> 01:56:08,880
Speaker 7: They wanted the boy Maurice, but the party was not

2025
01:56:09,120 --> 01:56:13,720
Speaker 7: interested in what people wanted. The day is nineteenth of

2026
01:56:13,760 --> 01:56:20,160
Speaker 7: October nineteen eighty three. The pro Maurice Bishop usual movement, leaders,

2027
01:56:21,160 --> 01:56:25,600
Speaker 7: government ministers, and a mass demonstration of people rolled up

2028
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:29,080
Speaker 7: to Bishop's house to set him free. There were gods,

2029
01:56:29,160 --> 01:56:31,920
Speaker 7: of course, assigned to keep him in house arrest, but

2030
01:56:32,080 --> 01:56:35,800
Speaker 7: those gods stood down. They refused to shoot at the people.

2031
01:56:36,760 --> 01:56:40,960
Speaker 7: To the crowd of people walked to Fort Rupert. Now

2032
01:56:41,040 --> 01:56:45,640
Speaker 7: Fort Rupert wasn't always Fort Rupert used to be Fort George. Fact,

2033
01:56:45,680 --> 01:56:49,320
Speaker 7: after the revolution ended it again became known as Fort George.

2034
01:56:50,160 --> 01:56:54,800
Speaker 7: But Fort Rupert was named Fort Rupert after Maurice Bishop's father,

2035
01:56:55,400 --> 01:56:58,160
Speaker 7: who was killed by Eric Garry, as you may recall.

2036
01:56:58,840 --> 01:57:02,400
Speaker 7: So they get there, but the majority of the Neudual movement,

2037
01:57:02,760 --> 01:57:06,720
Speaker 7: who were, like I said, backers of Thenard Cord, were

2038
01:57:06,760 --> 01:57:11,640
Speaker 7: at another fort nearby, then Boom three, armored trucks pull

2039
01:57:11,720 --> 01:57:17,080
Speaker 7: up from the Fort of Cord to Rupert's Fort Rupert Rat.

2040
01:57:17,880 --> 01:57:20,640
Speaker 7: They start firing into the crowd, people running all over

2041
01:57:20,720 --> 01:57:21,120
Speaker 7: the place.

2042
01:57:22,000 --> 01:57:22,160
Speaker 3: Hoo.

2043
01:57:22,240 --> 01:57:26,200
Speaker 7: One people died, who one people scattered. This event as

2044
01:57:26,200 --> 01:57:29,240
Speaker 7: a trauma for Grenadians even to this day. By the way,

2045
01:57:30,120 --> 01:57:33,600
Speaker 7: So the Cord loyalists pull up and line up Bishop

2046
01:57:34,280 --> 01:57:37,840
Speaker 7: Unison Whiteman, who was the Minister of Foreign Affairs, nor Spain,

2047
01:57:37,880 --> 01:57:39,920
Speaker 7: who is the Minister of Health and was actually not

2048
01:57:40,040 --> 01:57:43,720
Speaker 7: part of the NEU dual movement, and Jacqueline Kreft, who

2049
01:57:43,800 --> 01:57:46,480
Speaker 7: is the Minister of Education, then line them up against

2050
01:57:46,480 --> 01:57:53,800
Speaker 7: the wall and shot them summary execution. Others including trade unionists, businessmen,

2051
01:57:53,960 --> 01:57:58,920
Speaker 7: and high schoolers were also killed at Fort Rupert. Right

2052
01:57:59,040 --> 01:58:03,200
Speaker 7: after this, the militaryvery curfew was announced on radio. Grenadians

2053
01:58:03,240 --> 01:58:07,120
Speaker 7: were told to lock their doors. Violators of curfew were

2054
01:58:07,160 --> 01:58:10,240
Speaker 7: to be shot on site. A couple of days later,

2055
01:58:11,000 --> 01:58:14,680
Speaker 7: as people more wanted their dead, the news came that

2056
01:58:14,800 --> 01:58:19,920
Speaker 7: the United States will invade Grenada. If this was a

2057
01:58:20,880 --> 01:58:22,360
Speaker 7: HBO series, I feel like that would be the end

2058
01:58:22,400 --> 01:58:26,160
Speaker 7: of the pronouncement episode. So just to give you a

2059
01:58:26,200 --> 01:58:30,640
Speaker 7: bit of context on the US's position, the United States

2060
01:58:30,680 --> 01:58:33,560
Speaker 7: did not like the way that Cuba and the Soviets

2061
01:58:33,720 --> 01:58:37,360
Speaker 7: and Grenada were becoming close, even though Grenada was technically

2062
01:58:37,600 --> 01:58:41,320
Speaker 7: non aligned. Like much of the world, was trying to

2063
01:58:41,440 --> 01:58:45,440
Speaker 7: stay out of the hairs of the US and the

2064
01:58:45,560 --> 01:58:51,000
Speaker 7: USSR in their cold wor Yeah, but Grenada and Grenadians

2065
01:58:51,120 --> 01:58:56,760
Speaker 7: represented a serious risk. They were black, That's a big risk.

2066
01:58:57,920 --> 01:59:02,680
Speaker 7: They were English speaking. There were English speaking black people

2067
01:59:03,560 --> 01:59:06,000
Speaker 7: close to the border of the United States of America

2068
01:59:06,640 --> 01:59:10,120
Speaker 7: as African Americans were engaged in their own struggle for

2069
01:59:10,240 --> 01:59:14,120
Speaker 7: liberation in the US. As rich Bishop noted, I mean

2070
01:59:14,920 --> 01:59:21,320
Speaker 7: that's the threat that there could be communication, collaboration between

2071
01:59:21,360 --> 01:59:25,520
Speaker 7: these groups, a demonstration of an alternative close to the

2072
01:59:25,600 --> 01:59:29,160
Speaker 7: United States with ease of communication with the United States.

2073
01:59:30,000 --> 01:59:33,240
Speaker 7: So the United States invasion was always a potential outcome,

2074
01:59:34,120 --> 01:59:37,680
Speaker 7: but here it was flexing power in its fair in

2075
01:59:37,760 --> 01:59:40,480
Speaker 7: its backyard. The Party rounded up a bunch of people

2076
01:59:40,560 --> 01:59:44,920
Speaker 7: to join them in defending the revolution. Most people were traumatized.

2077
01:59:45,640 --> 01:59:49,600
Speaker 7: They ran and they hid wherever they could. Some, regardless

2078
01:59:49,600 --> 01:59:51,760
Speaker 7: of whether they liked the Nu jeal movement at that

2079
01:59:51,880 --> 01:59:54,680
Speaker 7: point in time or not, stood ready to defend their

2080
01:59:54,720 --> 01:59:59,000
Speaker 7: island from invasion, but any more were hidden and scared.

2081
01:59:59,600 --> 02:00:02,360
Speaker 7: And they were also others who, out of revenge for

2082
02:00:02,440 --> 02:00:07,800
Speaker 7: the revolution that betrayed them, betrayed the revolution by expressing

2083
02:00:07,840 --> 02:00:11,760
Speaker 7: their support for the invasion. Now, me personally, not something

2084
02:00:11,800 --> 02:00:14,560
Speaker 7: I would never do. I don't care how much I

2085
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:18,560
Speaker 7: disagree with any any government that I'm under, I wouldn't

2086
02:00:19,720 --> 02:00:25,600
Speaker 7: co sign the invasion of my country by an empire.

2087
02:00:26,400 --> 02:00:32,720
Speaker 7: But I can understand the reasoning or the emotional position

2088
02:00:33,200 --> 02:00:36,240
Speaker 7: that some people were in at that point. So the

2089
02:00:36,400 --> 02:00:40,200
Speaker 7: US's claim, by the way, for the invasion was that

2090
02:00:40,240 --> 02:00:44,600
Speaker 7: they were there to rescue American students who were in Grenada,

2091
02:00:46,120 --> 02:00:49,200
Speaker 7: so that they are to rescue these students from these

2092
02:00:49,360 --> 02:00:54,960
Speaker 7: these communes. Perfect American students wouldn't ender any actual threat. Obviously,

2093
02:00:55,800 --> 02:00:59,400
Speaker 7: nobody was mining them or threatening them or anything. But

2094
02:01:00,480 --> 02:01:03,600
Speaker 7: they always have to have some kind of story, right, Yeah,

2095
02:01:04,360 --> 02:01:08,360
Speaker 7: So twenty fifth of October nineteen eighty three, America's boots

2096
02:01:08,560 --> 02:01:12,800
Speaker 7: land on the ground, joined later by the military personnel

2097
02:01:12,880 --> 02:01:18,640
Speaker 7: of Barbados and Jamaica. There were more deaths, mostly in Grenadians,

2098
02:01:18,960 --> 02:01:21,600
Speaker 7: but also some Cubans who were there working on the

2099
02:01:21,720 --> 02:01:28,160
Speaker 7: new International Airport, an airport that later became known as

2100
02:01:28,280 --> 02:01:33,960
Speaker 7: Maurice Bishop International Airport, an airport that just over a

2101
02:01:34,040 --> 02:01:38,080
Speaker 7: month ago the United States requested to use for its

2102
02:01:38,160 --> 02:01:43,080
Speaker 7: military operations in the region. The United States kept the

2103
02:01:43,200 --> 02:01:48,600
Speaker 7: media out of the island for two days after the invasion.

2104
02:01:49,360 --> 02:01:52,640
Speaker 7: They were sure to curate an image of the communist threat.

2105
02:01:54,040 --> 02:01:56,600
Speaker 7: They wanted to pay into picture for the media to

2106
02:01:56,720 --> 02:01:59,480
Speaker 7: tell us story back at home about how yeah, they

2107
02:01:59,520 --> 02:02:03,560
Speaker 7: were actually repairing to work with the Soviets as a

2108
02:02:03,560 --> 02:02:06,720
Speaker 7: stage in ground to attack the United States. So this

2109
02:02:06,800 --> 02:02:11,400
Speaker 7: invasion was the first overt as opposed to covert use

2110
02:02:11,520 --> 02:02:16,120
Speaker 7: of force since Vietnam. The party in power at the

2111
02:02:16,200 --> 02:02:20,800
Speaker 7: time needed an easy win, so party members this says

2112
02:02:20,880 --> 02:02:24,920
Speaker 7: Neudual Movement party members were imprisoned. An interim government was

2113
02:02:25,040 --> 02:02:29,680
Speaker 7: established by Grenadians living abroad, and the revolution was over

2114
02:02:41,080 --> 02:02:46,120
Speaker 7: a stock aftermath, the fall of the Usual Movement and

2115
02:02:46,360 --> 02:02:50,120
Speaker 7: the People's Revolutionary Government of Grenada led to the disintegration

2116
02:02:50,680 --> 02:02:54,600
Speaker 7: of the Workers Party of Jamaica. It now destroyed Cara

2117
02:02:54,720 --> 02:02:58,560
Speaker 7: com the Caribbean community as a united block as Jamaica

2118
02:02:58,600 --> 02:03:00,959
Speaker 7: I'm sure and Dad decided with the US in the invasion,

2119
02:03:01,080 --> 02:03:05,440
Speaker 7: while countries I trainedad stood against the invasion. That was

2120
02:03:05,520 --> 02:03:09,240
Speaker 7: a split in Cara com that took years to recover from,

2121
02:03:10,360 --> 02:03:14,320
Speaker 7: and I think most crucially, the fall of the utual

2122
02:03:14,360 --> 02:03:18,040
Speaker 7: movement led to the death in all but name of

2123
02:03:18,160 --> 02:03:23,320
Speaker 7: the Caribbean Left, from distrust, from infighting, and from this

2124
02:03:23,560 --> 02:03:28,640
Speaker 7: resolute enforcement of the new colonial model. For all the

2125
02:03:28,720 --> 02:03:32,800
Speaker 7: flaws of the revolution had it was a representation of

2126
02:03:32,880 --> 02:03:37,800
Speaker 7: an alternative that something else could be done besides business

2127
02:03:37,840 --> 02:03:44,680
Speaker 7: as usual. And that alternative first felt in fighting, and

2128
02:03:44,840 --> 02:03:50,200
Speaker 7: then its fate was sealed by a belligerent invasion. Yeah,

2129
02:03:51,160 --> 02:03:55,080
Speaker 7: and so the Caribbean Left not say it's actually entirely dead.

2130
02:03:55,160 --> 02:03:58,400
Speaker 7: There are still figures from that era. There are still

2131
02:03:58,480 --> 02:04:05,120
Speaker 7: people who carry progressive or revolutionary politics, but it's Haiti

2132
02:04:05,320 --> 02:04:09,040
Speaker 7: it's goal and age is no more. And that is

2133
02:04:09,080 --> 02:04:13,200
Speaker 7: in part as a result of that US invasion. And

2134
02:04:13,320 --> 02:04:18,120
Speaker 7: within Grenader the bodies of those killed were never found.

2135
02:04:19,040 --> 02:04:22,800
Speaker 7: In some cases, the families of those killed or of

2136
02:04:23,560 --> 02:04:27,040
Speaker 7: department members may even still be divided to this day.

2137
02:04:27,760 --> 02:04:29,960
Speaker 7: You know, you can imagine how they must feel, these

2138
02:04:30,040 --> 02:04:34,160
Speaker 7: sort of social and political divisions that came out of

2139
02:04:34,240 --> 02:04:37,200
Speaker 7: that kind of action. Who sided with Cord, who sided

2140
02:04:37,280 --> 02:04:39,720
Speaker 7: with Bishop, who sided with the US? Who stood against

2141
02:04:40,040 --> 02:04:43,360
Speaker 7: who brought whose actions were responsible for the US come in.

2142
02:04:44,000 --> 02:04:47,200
Speaker 7: If the revolution never happened, then US wouldn't have come

2143
02:04:47,200 --> 02:04:53,200
Speaker 7: they seople wouldn't be dead. Blame game, accusations, political conflicts,

2144
02:04:54,360 --> 02:04:56,400
Speaker 7: all of that. You know, it's very easy to breeze

2145
02:04:56,440 --> 02:04:59,640
Speaker 7: over the deaths of people in historical events as just numbers.

2146
02:05:00,040 --> 02:05:04,720
Speaker 7: That's just statistics. You know, it doesn't even click, you know,

2147
02:05:04,760 --> 02:05:06,840
Speaker 7: because I think, I don't think our brains can fully

2148
02:05:07,560 --> 02:05:10,800
Speaker 7: handle that much trauma at once. So we we could

2149
02:05:10,880 --> 02:05:14,560
Speaker 7: partmentalize it in a way, we package it in something

2150
02:05:14,600 --> 02:05:19,160
Speaker 7: that's a bit more digestible. When you hear figures of

2151
02:05:19,680 --> 02:05:23,640
Speaker 7: you know, even just two people, that that's two people,

2152
02:05:24,400 --> 02:05:30,960
Speaker 7: two entire human beings with lives, interests, passions, relationships, connections,

2153
02:05:31,280 --> 02:05:36,080
Speaker 7: future snuffed out. And in a country like Grenada, from

2154
02:05:36,120 --> 02:05:40,320
Speaker 7: a small country, one hundred thousand people, and I mean

2155
02:05:40,360 --> 02:05:42,960
Speaker 7: I'm from Trinad, right, which has a population of about

2156
02:05:42,960 --> 02:05:45,920
Speaker 7: one point four million people, and it still feels like

2157
02:05:46,040 --> 02:05:49,400
Speaker 7: you know somebody who knows somebody. The networks are so tight.

2158
02:05:50,400 --> 02:05:53,760
Speaker 7: It's even tighter net network wise in a Grenader or

2159
02:05:53,760 --> 02:05:59,800
Speaker 7: a Tobago. You know, we're talking neighbors, relatives split into sides, cousin,

2160
02:06:00,240 --> 02:06:06,720
Speaker 7: blaming cousin, friend killing friend, a decolonization never fully began

2161
02:06:06,800 --> 02:06:10,840
Speaker 7: and never fully completed. Their social splits on the perspective

2162
02:06:10,960 --> 02:06:15,400
Speaker 7: on what took place, you had the Bishop was good crowd,

2163
02:06:16,280 --> 02:06:19,560
Speaker 7: the Bishop was bad crowd. The Bishop was bad, but

2164
02:06:19,680 --> 02:06:23,080
Speaker 7: the revolution was good crowd. The revolution was bad, but

2165
02:06:23,160 --> 02:06:27,640
Speaker 7: Bishop was good crowd. You get all sorts of interpretations

2166
02:06:27,680 --> 02:06:31,760
Speaker 7: of these kinds of traumatic historical events. Yeah, and the

2167
02:06:31,840 --> 02:06:37,280
Speaker 7: outcome to this day is, you know, fair, unhealed, open wounds,

2168
02:06:38,160 --> 02:06:41,840
Speaker 7: the youth, the passionate radical youth of yesteryear, keeping their

2169
02:06:41,880 --> 02:06:45,640
Speaker 7: heads down on auto politics. Today. Unfortunately, very little has

2170
02:06:45,680 --> 02:06:47,960
Speaker 7: been done in Grenada to deal with the traumas of

2171
02:06:48,000 --> 02:06:53,320
Speaker 7: the invasion, besides an attempted truth and Reconciliation commission, which

2172
02:06:53,920 --> 02:06:58,280
Speaker 7: failed miserably due to a couple of different obstacles, an

2173
02:06:58,360 --> 02:07:03,240
Speaker 7: unwillingness to reconcile, amongst they continued incarceration of certain individuals,

2174
02:07:03,840 --> 02:07:09,280
Speaker 7: unrecovered remains, anger towards entire sectors the population at the

2175
02:07:09,360 --> 02:07:13,600
Speaker 7: execution of Bishop and others, and so in the years

2176
02:07:13,640 --> 02:07:19,560
Speaker 7: that have followed, there's been a subdued political consciousness among

2177
02:07:19,640 --> 02:07:24,640
Speaker 7: much of the population. They have risen to the challenge

2178
02:07:24,800 --> 02:07:28,120
Speaker 7: of the US inviting themselves to set up shop in

2179
02:07:28,640 --> 02:07:32,680
Speaker 7: marich Bishop International Airport. There were many actions taking place

2180
02:07:32,720 --> 02:07:37,200
Speaker 7: in Grenada to speak up understand against that intervention. But

2181
02:07:37,320 --> 02:07:40,440
Speaker 7: for the most part, the property of this has been

2182
02:07:40,520 --> 02:07:45,680
Speaker 7: disengaged from the sort of radical passion that you saw

2183
02:07:46,040 --> 02:07:49,360
Speaker 7: in that time period. And it didn't help, of course

2184
02:07:49,480 --> 02:07:54,040
Speaker 7: that pretty much right after the revolution you had a

2185
02:07:54,160 --> 02:07:59,240
Speaker 7: series of natural disasters. In September two thousand and four,

2186
02:08:00,000 --> 02:08:02,440
Speaker 7: after being hurricane three for forty nine years, the island

2187
02:08:02,520 --> 02:08:06,200
Speaker 7: was hit by Hurricane Ivan, a Category three hurricane that

2188
02:08:06,320 --> 02:08:09,280
Speaker 7: resulted in three nine deaths and the damage or destruction

2189
02:08:09,480 --> 02:08:13,520
Speaker 7: to ninety percent of the island's homes. In two thousand

2190
02:08:13,560 --> 02:08:15,800
Speaker 7: and five, which is the following year, Hurricane Emily, a

2191
02:08:15,920 --> 02:08:19,320
Speaker 7: Category one hurricane, struck the island and killed a person.

2192
02:08:20,080 --> 02:08:23,880
Speaker 7: In twenty twenty four, Hurricane Beryl struck the island of Kararaku.

2193
02:08:24,880 --> 02:08:28,440
Speaker 7: And so we're already to know the environmental instability of

2194
02:08:28,880 --> 02:08:31,440
Speaker 7: being a Caribbean island, but now I also have to

2195
02:08:31,520 --> 02:08:34,000
Speaker 7: be with the political and social instability of such a

2196
02:08:34,080 --> 02:08:38,400
Speaker 7: traumatic incident. Before we close, I do want to get

2197
02:08:38,480 --> 02:08:42,760
Speaker 7: into some of the critiques that I had of this project.

2198
02:08:43,840 --> 02:08:45,320
Speaker 7: You know, I'm not the type of weekson to look

2199
02:08:45,320 --> 02:08:49,120
Speaker 7: at these historical moments, no matter by allegiance to the

2200
02:08:49,280 --> 02:08:52,680
Speaker 7: esposed politics of the people in them, and we want

2201
02:08:52,680 --> 02:08:56,960
Speaker 7: to paint them in a narrow, simplistic brush. You know,

2202
02:08:57,040 --> 02:08:59,800
Speaker 7: I think I see that tendency across all groups. Yeah,

2203
02:09:00,240 --> 02:09:02,280
Speaker 7: you know, so the Marx Slenness. We'll talk about these

2204
02:09:02,360 --> 02:09:07,120
Speaker 7: revolutions in a very fawning and agulating way. Then you

2205
02:09:07,280 --> 02:09:11,360
Speaker 7: sell the anarchists who talk about, you know, the Spanish

2206
02:09:11,400 --> 02:09:14,400
Speaker 7: Civil War, they talk about the Paris community. They talk

2207
02:09:14,400 --> 02:09:17,120
Speaker 7: about these different projects as if they were and as

2208
02:09:17,160 --> 02:09:21,600
Speaker 7: if they weren't serious flaws in their structure and the

2209
02:09:21,680 --> 02:09:24,640
Speaker 7: analysis and their methodology. It's worth addressing.

2210
02:09:24,960 --> 02:09:25,080
Speaker 4: You know.

2211
02:09:25,120 --> 02:09:26,960
Speaker 7: It's very easy for nostalgia to take over.

2212
02:09:27,640 --> 02:09:29,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely, like something I think about a lot. Like

2213
02:09:29,840 --> 02:09:33,200
Speaker 6: I translated a piece for the Strangers in the Tangled

2214
02:09:33,240 --> 02:09:36,360
Speaker 6: Wilderness zine a few months ago, maybe even a year

2215
02:09:36,400 --> 02:09:41,200
Speaker 6: ago now by an anarchist fighterhood fought in the International

2216
02:09:41,240 --> 02:09:44,400
Speaker 6: Group of the Darruti column who went by several names,

2217
02:09:44,560 --> 02:09:48,400
Speaker 6: Charles Riddle with his birth name, but he has this

2218
02:09:48,480 --> 02:09:51,480
Speaker 6: whole thing about how anarchists tend to write hagiographies like

2219
02:09:51,760 --> 02:09:55,240
Speaker 6: which is the life of a saint? Right, Like they've

2220
02:09:55,280 --> 02:09:56,960
Speaker 6: tried to make the Spanish Civil War into these like

2221
02:09:57,080 --> 02:10:01,320
Speaker 6: exemplaries saintly people as a opposed to actually looking at

2222
02:10:01,360 --> 02:10:05,360
Speaker 6: the mistakes people made and his stances are like his

2223
02:10:05,520 --> 02:10:09,040
Speaker 6: friends died for nothing if we don't learn anything, and

2224
02:10:09,200 --> 02:10:13,000
Speaker 6: so if we don't acknowledge the very real compromises and

2225
02:10:13,280 --> 02:10:17,760
Speaker 6: mistakes and failures, then they have been defeated, right, and

2226
02:10:17,840 --> 02:10:19,520
Speaker 6: they all died for nothing. But at at least we

2227
02:10:19,560 --> 02:10:21,480
Speaker 6: can learn from it, then at least is something we

2228
02:10:21,560 --> 02:10:24,040
Speaker 6: can take going forward, which is something I always thought

2229
02:10:24,160 --> 02:10:27,920
Speaker 6: was a great way of phrasing something and quite an

2230
02:10:27,920 --> 02:10:31,800
Speaker 6: admirable way of looking at something that he himself participated

2231
02:10:31,840 --> 02:10:33,760
Speaker 6: in and that was obviously a defining and a very

2232
02:10:33,840 --> 02:10:35,480
Speaker 6: traumatic experience of his life.

2233
02:10:36,280 --> 02:10:40,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's something that I rallied again, that sort of

2234
02:10:40,800 --> 02:10:45,800
Speaker 7: great man of Bruce's history. Yeah, right, I suppose that

2235
02:10:45,880 --> 02:10:48,440
Speaker 7: brings mean some of my first critique, which is something

2236
02:10:48,480 --> 02:10:53,120
Speaker 7: that plays greater both before, during and after this revolution

2237
02:10:54,240 --> 02:10:58,360
Speaker 7: when you have a political culture dependent on a maximum

2238
02:10:58,520 --> 02:11:02,880
Speaker 7: leader that puts now cult or just a grouping around

2239
02:11:02,960 --> 02:11:08,160
Speaker 7: her personality, whether that's bishop or Gaary or Cord. For one,

2240
02:11:08,200 --> 02:11:11,760
Speaker 7: it's a continuation of the colonial politics of the British

2241
02:11:12,360 --> 02:11:16,160
Speaker 7: in that sort of governor position. And it also, I

2242
02:11:16,200 --> 02:11:20,960
Speaker 7: think leads to a contempt towards common people. Whether it

2243
02:11:21,040 --> 02:11:23,960
Speaker 7: starts out that way or not, it eventually makes its

2244
02:11:23,960 --> 02:11:27,760
Speaker 7: way into that direction. I still see personality politics rear

2245
02:11:27,800 --> 02:11:30,560
Speaker 7: and it's ugly headed in Trinidad, even though we've been

2246
02:11:30,640 --> 02:11:33,760
Speaker 7: independent for even longer. You know, nineteen sixty two are

2247
02:11:33,760 --> 02:11:38,400
Speaker 7: opposed to create as nineteen seventy four. But the result

2248
02:11:38,440 --> 02:11:42,640
Speaker 7: of that kind of politics is, you know, it's ideological

2249
02:11:42,680 --> 02:11:48,360
Speaker 7: and policy splits either nonexistent or secondary to personality loyalties,

2250
02:11:48,800 --> 02:11:53,280
Speaker 7: familiar ties, and in some cases ethnic loyalty. The United

2251
02:11:53,400 --> 02:11:56,720
Speaker 7: National Congress UN see the Party in Power Internet right now,

2252
02:11:57,360 --> 02:12:01,280
Speaker 7: party responsible for our current position, is a personality cult

2253
02:12:01,840 --> 02:12:06,120
Speaker 7: led by a current prime minister talent subrossessor. And she's

2254
02:12:06,200 --> 02:12:13,480
Speaker 7: only one of many examples of this sort of party first,

2255
02:12:14,280 --> 02:12:18,160
Speaker 7: leader first approach to politics that we see in the region,

2256
02:12:19,000 --> 02:12:21,280
Speaker 7: a baggage that we see in the region. I know,

2257
02:12:21,360 --> 02:12:24,000
Speaker 7: with radical politics, it's sad because you expect to do

2258
02:12:24,080 --> 02:12:29,080
Speaker 7: away with that kind of stuff. But the Revolution, in

2259
02:12:29,200 --> 02:12:33,360
Speaker 7: my view, had a lack of decolonization away from the

2260
02:12:33,440 --> 02:12:37,480
Speaker 7: authority and tendencies of colonial rule. That I think is

2261
02:12:37,560 --> 02:12:40,280
Speaker 7: why there was such an appeal in Leninists thought and

2262
02:12:40,480 --> 02:12:44,200
Speaker 7: rule to begin with, because it's a lot easier to approach,

2263
02:12:44,320 --> 02:12:47,960
Speaker 7: you know, it doesn't unpack the psychology of clonialism or

2264
02:12:48,080 --> 02:12:51,839
Speaker 7: unpack how Gary's rule may have shaped their own approach

2265
02:12:51,880 --> 02:12:57,280
Speaker 7: to politics, that another politics might, that another anti politics might,

2266
02:12:58,120 --> 02:13:02,040
Speaker 7: And so they carried on this elita, authoritaria, and personality

2267
02:13:02,120 --> 02:13:08,480
Speaker 7: based politics despite having a youthful beginning. Bishop was twenty

2268
02:13:08,640 --> 02:13:11,120
Speaker 7: nine when he started a neutral movement, which is the

2269
02:13:11,160 --> 02:13:13,800
Speaker 7: same age that Gary was when he got into politics.

2270
02:13:14,560 --> 02:13:16,480
Speaker 7: I know one could make a movie of the mirrors

2271
02:13:16,520 --> 02:13:19,960
Speaker 7: in their histories. But despite his youthful beginning, the youth

2272
02:13:20,240 --> 02:13:23,920
Speaker 7: carried on the mistakes of their forebears. They betrayed the

2273
02:13:23,960 --> 02:13:26,600
Speaker 7: excitement of people power that people had for the revolution,

2274
02:13:27,360 --> 02:13:29,840
Speaker 7: just as they betrayed the excitement of people power that

2275
02:13:29,880 --> 02:13:34,160
Speaker 7: people had for independence, and they continue the consciousness of

2276
02:13:34,440 --> 02:13:38,520
Speaker 7: deference to hierarchy. Again, I don't want to draw one

2277
02:13:38,600 --> 02:13:43,160
Speaker 7: to one comparisons between Gary and Bishop. I recognize their

2278
02:13:43,360 --> 02:13:47,720
Speaker 7: stark differences and their politics and in their engagement with

2279
02:13:47,800 --> 02:13:51,320
Speaker 7: the people of Grenado. They were not the same, but

2280
02:13:51,440 --> 02:13:54,880
Speaker 7: in some ways they did rhyme. I would wrap up,

2281
02:13:54,920 --> 02:13:58,800
Speaker 7: I suppose with Bundy's sort of critique of Grenado's revolution,

2282
02:13:59,200 --> 02:14:02,640
Speaker 7: which I just echo this continued consciousness of a deference

2283
02:14:02,680 --> 02:14:08,400
Speaker 7: to hierarchy. A genuine revolution depends on people taking direct responsibility,

2284
02:14:09,240 --> 02:14:12,720
Speaker 7: not waiting for leaders or stages of development, not waiting

2285
02:14:12,840 --> 02:14:19,040
Speaker 7: on guidance, being empowered themselves. That sort of tired Leninist

2286
02:14:19,240 --> 02:14:25,160
Speaker 7: gradualism and bureaucratic control gets regular people no closer to

2287
02:14:25,320 --> 02:14:29,720
Speaker 7: actually having a sense of autonomy and control over their lives.

2288
02:14:30,800 --> 02:14:38,600
Speaker 7: And as Fundy emphasizers, especially in small Caribbean societies, participatory

2289
02:14:39,280 --> 02:14:45,720
Speaker 7: local self managed systems are entirely feasible. Inclosing, Fundy suggested

2290
02:14:45,800 --> 02:14:49,040
Speaker 7: that Gredino's revolution failed because it moved away from this

2291
02:14:49,200 --> 02:14:55,160
Speaker 7: principle of immediate collective self management and deliberately chose hierarchy.

2292
02:14:55,680 --> 02:14:59,400
Speaker 7: And from that hierarchy came a sense of erodent trust, came,

2293
02:14:59,440 --> 02:15:02,760
Speaker 7: a sense of secrecy, became a sense of secret societies,

2294
02:15:03,640 --> 02:15:07,680
Speaker 7: and I created a culture of secrecy, a post transparency

2295
02:15:08,440 --> 02:15:12,400
Speaker 7: that led to its downfall. As I mentioned, it was

2296
02:15:12,560 --> 02:15:17,080
Speaker 7: gossip a rumor of somebody trying to kill Bishop but

2297
02:15:17,240 --> 02:15:21,080
Speaker 7: got this ball roller. So today I want to appeal

2298
02:15:21,160 --> 02:15:25,560
Speaker 7: directly to Cribean radicals of all stripes to learn, to learnlessly,

2299
02:15:25,800 --> 02:15:30,320
Speaker 7: learn from the Grenadian Revolution. I on't appeal not just

2300
02:15:30,360 --> 02:15:33,400
Speaker 7: to Cribian radicals, but to radicals all across. They will

2301
02:15:33,480 --> 02:15:38,560
Speaker 7: all across our listenership. It is critical in times when

2302
02:15:39,320 --> 02:15:46,520
Speaker 7: the means of intervention and the means of disruption and

2303
02:15:46,640 --> 02:15:51,680
Speaker 7: division and co optation are more powerful than ever, that

2304
02:15:51,800 --> 02:15:55,320
Speaker 7: you engage in the sort of dissipation of leadership, that

2305
02:15:55,440 --> 02:16:01,800
Speaker 7: you engage in grassroots and disposed in powerment, That you

2306
02:16:01,920 --> 02:16:07,839
Speaker 7: maintain an anti authoritarian ethos that cannot be co opted

2307
02:16:08,400 --> 02:16:11,560
Speaker 7: by a charismatic power. But you've take an approach to

2308
02:16:11,720 --> 02:16:16,080
Speaker 7: organization does not lend itself to the vulnerabilities of hierarchy

2309
02:16:17,120 --> 02:16:21,160
Speaker 7: that you consider moving like my coruser, that you take

2310
02:16:21,200 --> 02:16:25,280
Speaker 7: on networks and free associations rather than the sort of

2311
02:16:26,480 --> 02:16:32,560
Speaker 7: X Marxist spot Bullsey centralized parties and the power struggles

2312
02:16:32,640 --> 02:16:37,440
Speaker 7: that ensue from them from that thirst for power that

2313
02:16:37,640 --> 02:16:45,040
Speaker 7: led so many downfalls for the revolutionary imagination. Before I

2314
02:16:45,080 --> 02:16:46,520
Speaker 7: wrap up, I just want to ask James, we have

2315
02:16:46,560 --> 02:16:47,039
Speaker 7: any thoughts.

2316
02:16:48,040 --> 02:16:50,520
Speaker 6: No, I think that's very eloquent the way you said it,

2317
02:16:50,680 --> 02:16:55,080
Speaker 6: Like we have to build systems and ways of organizing

2318
02:16:55,240 --> 02:16:57,840
Speaker 6: relating to one another that don't allow this to happen. Right,

2319
02:16:58,720 --> 02:17:00,960
Speaker 6: we have to be very conscious, like you say, of

2320
02:17:01,480 --> 02:17:03,560
Speaker 6: where it has happened. And I think the only way

2321
02:17:04,520 --> 02:17:07,959
Speaker 6: there'll we understand the value of that is through studying history,

2322
02:17:08,560 --> 02:17:12,360
Speaker 6: but like studying it from a place like you were saying, right,

2323
02:17:12,440 --> 02:17:14,640
Speaker 6: like I get death is a statistic or a number

2324
02:17:14,760 --> 02:17:17,520
Speaker 6: until it's a person. And I think if we can

2325
02:17:17,560 --> 02:17:21,200
Speaker 6: study history from a place of like empathy, I guess,

2326
02:17:21,280 --> 02:17:24,480
Speaker 6: and solidarity rather than this would never happen to me,

2327
02:17:24,920 --> 02:17:27,760
Speaker 6: or like you said, like oversimplifying in a way that

2328
02:17:27,840 --> 02:17:31,160
Speaker 6: I think doesn't help. And sometimes I think we do

2329
02:17:31,320 --> 02:17:35,760
Speaker 6: it to kind of absolve ourselves from similarity, to think like, oh,

2330
02:17:36,120 --> 02:17:39,520
Speaker 6: how close could I be to this? It's one of

2331
02:17:39,680 --> 02:17:43,760
Speaker 6: the things I don't like about academic history. But if

2332
02:17:43,840 --> 02:17:46,480
Speaker 6: we are people who are interested in making the world better,

2333
02:17:46,520 --> 02:17:48,879
Speaker 6: than we have to learn from all the other people

2334
02:17:49,000 --> 02:17:51,000
Speaker 6: all over the world who tried to make the world better,

2335
02:17:51,240 --> 02:17:56,640
Speaker 6: and especially from the ones who didn't succeed. Yeah, because

2336
02:17:56,680 --> 02:17:58,000
Speaker 6: we don't want to do that again.

2337
02:17:59,600 --> 02:18:04,520
Speaker 7: Exactly, and the times they are a change in Yes, indeed,

2338
02:18:05,520 --> 02:18:09,280
Speaker 7: we have to approach that with our due diligence. You know,

2339
02:18:09,360 --> 02:18:13,640
Speaker 7: the strategies that were more relevant or more more practical

2340
02:18:13,720 --> 02:18:16,920
Speaker 7: in particular context may be relevant or practical in your context.

2341
02:18:17,600 --> 02:18:22,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, very much too. All right, Yeah, that was great,

2342
02:18:22,280 --> 02:18:22,760
Speaker 6: Thank you Andrew.

2343
02:18:23,640 --> 02:18:26,200
Speaker 7: To all our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in.

2344
02:18:26,800 --> 02:18:29,840
Speaker 7: I hope that you can look at our region with

2345
02:18:30,040 --> 02:18:36,240
Speaker 7: clearer eyes and vigilance in the ways that history repeats

2346
02:18:36,360 --> 02:18:41,080
Speaker 7: and rhymes. Until next time or power to all the

2347
02:18:41,160 --> 02:18:42,600
Speaker 7: people peace?

2348
02:18:59,000 --> 02:18:59,320
Speaker 3: All right?

2349
02:19:00,560 --> 02:19:04,320
Speaker 6: What are crackers and crack ats? Is that good? Perfect?

2350
02:19:04,560 --> 02:19:05,120
Speaker 6: Do we say that?

2351
02:19:05,800 --> 02:19:06,200
Speaker 3: I think? So?

2352
02:19:06,640 --> 02:19:09,320
Speaker 6: Okay, do you have a non binary cracks crack thems?

2353
02:19:10,040 --> 02:19:11,800
Speaker 3: I think I'm definitionly not a cracker.

2354
02:19:18,040 --> 02:19:20,160
Speaker 2: I just wanted to use the word crack ats. Yeah,

2355
02:19:20,320 --> 02:19:21,920
Speaker 2: I understand it's not appropriate.

2356
02:19:22,120 --> 02:19:22,920
Speaker 3: That's reasonable.

2357
02:19:23,280 --> 02:19:29,720
Speaker 6: Welcome to ed. Yeah, weich is just we should that, sorry, James,

2358
02:19:29,760 --> 02:19:32,400
Speaker 6: So let's just keep doing it. Do the intro. This

2359
02:19:32,680 --> 02:19:35,920
Speaker 6: is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast

2360
02:19:36,000 --> 02:19:38,279
Speaker 6: covering what is happening in the White House, the crumbling

2361
02:19:38,360 --> 02:19:40,480
Speaker 6: of our world, and what this means to you. I

2362
02:19:40,640 --> 02:19:44,360
Speaker 6: am James Stout and I'm joined today by Robert Evans

2363
02:19:44,600 --> 02:19:49,240
Speaker 6: and Mia Wong and Sophie. Sophie is also here, and

2364
02:19:49,480 --> 02:19:52,800
Speaker 6: this episode we are covering the week of December eleventh

2365
02:19:52,920 --> 02:19:57,600
Speaker 6: to December seventeenth, the week before the week that is Christmas.

2366
02:19:58,080 --> 02:20:00,720
Speaker 2: That's right, baby, So I hope you've done your shopping.

2367
02:20:00,879 --> 02:20:03,480
Speaker 2: I hope you've got me a gift because I pay

2368
02:20:03,520 --> 02:20:05,960
Speaker 2: attention to which of our listeners do and do not

2369
02:20:06,160 --> 02:20:06,959
Speaker 2: buy me presents.

2370
02:20:08,160 --> 02:20:11,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, so do I you will never find me and

2371
02:20:11,600 --> 02:20:13,200
Speaker 6: you shouldn't try. That's right.

2372
02:20:13,560 --> 02:20:15,959
Speaker 1: And it's currently Honkah, Happy honkah.

2373
02:20:15,840 --> 02:20:21,039
Speaker 8: Happy hone right, yes, yeah, happy honekah. All the holidays

2374
02:20:21,400 --> 02:20:25,960
Speaker 8: have a yeah, quasi Kwanza, have a solemn, dignified tet.

2375
02:20:26,440 --> 02:20:28,240
Speaker 6: All the holidays have a good one of them.

2376
02:20:28,320 --> 02:20:29,840
Speaker 1: Happy Winter Solstice, which.

2377
02:20:29,720 --> 02:20:32,920
Speaker 2: Is happy Solstice more unhappy Solstice. It's kind of a

2378
02:20:33,200 --> 02:20:36,759
Speaker 2: bittersweet holiday. Yeah, Super Saturnalia.

2379
02:20:37,640 --> 02:20:40,080
Speaker 6: You know, it's a good one.

2380
02:20:42,360 --> 02:20:45,000
Speaker 8: So holidays are nice, but we're going to talk about

2381
02:20:45,080 --> 02:20:47,560
Speaker 8: some things that are less nice today.

2382
02:20:47,920 --> 02:20:51,840
Speaker 6: The government, Yes, the government and specific parts of the government.

2383
02:20:52,160 --> 02:20:56,560
Speaker 6: Let's start with some headlines. Gothamist has obtained information about

2384
02:20:56,640 --> 02:20:59,080
Speaker 6: ice being able to enter private parts of New York

2385
02:20:59,160 --> 02:21:02,640
Speaker 6: City shelter without a judicial warrant, or being able to

2386
02:21:02,680 --> 02:21:06,320
Speaker 6: obtain private information about residents, despite both of these in

2387
02:21:06,520 --> 02:21:09,920
Speaker 6: theory being prohibited by sanctuary city laws in New York. Right,

2388
02:21:10,520 --> 02:21:13,560
Speaker 6: it's happened at least five times. The way Gotham has

2389
02:21:13,640 --> 02:21:17,160
Speaker 6: found this is by making a public records request for

2390
02:21:17,240 --> 02:21:20,360
Speaker 6: incident reports, which is a clever use of public record

2391
02:21:20,480 --> 02:21:24,199
Speaker 6: law nice one. The city has already aware of both

2392
02:21:24,360 --> 02:21:27,039
Speaker 6: jail and police officers violating these laws, and I think

2393
02:21:27,120 --> 02:21:30,160
Speaker 6: this is a good example of how people think of

2394
02:21:30,280 --> 02:21:35,480
Speaker 6: sanctuary city laws as inassailable, but in fact sanctuary laws

2395
02:21:35,920 --> 02:21:39,400
Speaker 6: be the city's state whatever jurisdiction, are very often violated,

2396
02:21:40,000 --> 02:21:41,880
Speaker 6: and it's good to see that being reported on more.

2397
02:21:42,480 --> 02:21:44,840
Speaker 6: Last week, we talked about Faustino Pablo Pablo, right, the

2398
02:21:44,879 --> 02:21:47,720
Speaker 6: guy who had been sent to Guatemala despite the fact

2399
02:21:47,720 --> 02:21:50,560
Speaker 6: that he had protections under the Convention against Torture for

2400
02:21:50,680 --> 02:21:53,879
Speaker 6: being returned there. The government has returned him to the US,

2401
02:21:54,320 --> 02:21:57,200
Speaker 6: which is good. That is a rare, good immigration story.

2402
02:22:01,280 --> 02:22:03,720
Speaker 6: It did really bum me out to see that, Like

2403
02:22:04,040 --> 02:22:06,840
Speaker 6: there were dozens of articles on him being sent there, right,

2404
02:22:06,879 --> 02:22:10,640
Speaker 6: and I couldn't find anything any reporting on him being returned,

2405
02:22:10,840 --> 02:22:12,320
Speaker 6: which is kind of like, we should be happy for

2406
02:22:12,400 --> 02:22:15,760
Speaker 6: these people. We should. Yeah, we don't get many wins

2407
02:22:15,840 --> 02:22:18,119
Speaker 6: and we should take them. Yeah, we should be happy

2408
02:22:18,160 --> 02:22:21,119
Speaker 6: that this guy is not being likely to be tortured.

2409
02:22:21,280 --> 02:22:23,520
Speaker 6: At least it is still possible for them to remove

2410
02:22:23,600 --> 02:22:26,800
Speaker 6: him to a third country, right, that is not outside

2411
02:22:26,840 --> 02:22:28,920
Speaker 6: the realm of possibility. But right now he's not in

2412
02:22:29,000 --> 02:22:31,480
Speaker 6: a place where a gig judicated he was likely to

2413
02:22:31,560 --> 02:22:34,520
Speaker 6: be tortured, and that is good good. And Trump has

2414
02:22:34,600 --> 02:22:39,200
Speaker 6: designated fentanel as a weapon of mass destruction, which is great.

2415
02:22:40,920 --> 02:22:42,080
Speaker 3: What are we doing here?

2416
02:22:42,800 --> 02:22:48,800
Speaker 6: Like, I am trained as a historian, and I probably

2417
02:22:48,800 --> 02:22:51,320
Speaker 6: should remind you that we have been down this road

2418
02:22:51,840 --> 02:22:56,320
Speaker 6: before with the weapons of mass destruction, and I hope

2419
02:22:56,440 --> 02:23:01,040
Speaker 6: this is not leading where it did lost time, but

2420
02:23:01,200 --> 02:23:05,160
Speaker 6: I am very worried that it might. Yeah, yeah, it's

2421
02:23:05,280 --> 02:23:06,240
Speaker 6: it's one of those things.

2422
02:23:06,400 --> 02:23:10,320
Speaker 2: I'm both we'll see, we'll know before this episode ends

2423
02:23:10,360 --> 02:23:13,280
Speaker 2: whether or not I'm wrong. Tucker Carlson stated recently that

2424
02:23:13,320 --> 02:23:16,320
Speaker 2: a source has told him the presidential announcement coming up

2425
02:23:16,440 --> 02:23:19,480
Speaker 2: is Trump declaring war, right that, like, we're doing a

2426
02:23:19,560 --> 02:23:22,280
Speaker 2: war with Venezuela full on, not just some like air

2427
02:23:22,360 --> 02:23:26,119
Speaker 2: strikes and stuff, just not to minimize a legal air

2428
02:23:26,200 --> 02:23:29,480
Speaker 2: strike in the sea or on Venezuela or soil.

2429
02:23:30,160 --> 02:23:30,959
Speaker 6: I don't know if I.

2430
02:23:31,400 --> 02:23:34,640
Speaker 2: Think that that's the likeliest thing. It just seems like

2431
02:23:35,120 --> 02:23:39,920
Speaker 2: such a huge jump. But also, at this point there's

2432
02:23:39,959 --> 02:23:42,920
Speaker 2: a whole armada blocking off Venezuela from the rest of

2433
02:23:43,000 --> 02:23:45,360
Speaker 2: the world, and Trump put out a statement saying that

2434
02:23:45,560 --> 02:23:49,119
Speaker 2: their oil is our oil and belongs rightly to American companies.

2435
02:23:49,240 --> 02:23:53,680
Speaker 8: So very very possible, very possible when we're about to

2436
02:23:53,760 --> 02:23:56,520
Speaker 8: go to war with them. I'm certainly not a I

2437
02:23:56,560 --> 02:23:59,000
Speaker 8: don't know what's going to happen, y'all. I'm white knuckling

2438
02:23:59,080 --> 02:23:59,920
Speaker 8: it like everybody else.

2439
02:24:00,160 --> 02:24:02,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, that fucking sucks. I didn't know the thing about

2440
02:24:02,040 --> 02:24:02,440
Speaker 6: that oil.

2441
02:24:03,360 --> 02:24:03,840
Speaker 3: It's amazing.

2442
02:24:03,959 --> 02:24:06,600
Speaker 2: I'll read the exact quote to you, James. This is

2443
02:24:06,680 --> 02:24:10,120
Speaker 2: from Trump a truth social post which has twelve point

2444
02:24:10,160 --> 02:24:14,120
Speaker 2: four thousand retruths and forty seven thousand likes. Venezuela is

2445
02:24:14,200 --> 02:24:16,880
Speaker 2: completely surrounded by the largest armada ever assembled in the

2446
02:24:16,959 --> 02:24:19,080
Speaker 2: history of South America. It will only get bigger, and

2447
02:24:19,120 --> 02:24:20,600
Speaker 2: the shock to them will be like nothing they have

2448
02:24:20,640 --> 02:24:22,840
Speaker 2: ever seen before until such time as they returned to

2449
02:24:22,879 --> 02:24:25,240
Speaker 2: the United States of America all of the oil, land

2450
02:24:25,320 --> 02:24:28,480
Speaker 2: and other assets that they previously stole from US. The

2451
02:24:28,520 --> 02:24:31,680
Speaker 2: illegitimate Maduro regime is using oil from these stolen oil

2452
02:24:31,720 --> 02:24:35,840
Speaker 2: fields to finance themselves, drug terrorism, human trafficking, murder and kidnapping.

2453
02:24:35,879 --> 02:24:37,680
Speaker 2: For the theft of our assets, and many other reasons

2454
02:24:37,720 --> 02:24:41,040
Speaker 2: including terrorism, drug smuggling, and human trafficking, the Venezuelan regime

2455
02:24:41,080 --> 02:24:44,440
Speaker 2: has been designated a foreign terrorist organization. Therefore, today I'm

2456
02:24:44,560 --> 02:24:46,880
Speaker 2: ordering a total and complete blockade of all sanctioned oil

2457
02:24:46,920 --> 02:24:49,680
Speaker 2: tankers going into and out of Venezuela. The illegal aliens

2458
02:24:49,720 --> 02:24:51,480
Speaker 2: and criminals that the Madeira regime has sent to the

2459
02:24:51,560 --> 02:24:54,360
Speaker 2: United States during the weekend and Biden administration are being

2460
02:24:54,400 --> 02:24:57,560
Speaker 2: returned to Venezuela at a rapid pace. YadA, YadA, YadA. Yeah,

2461
02:24:57,879 --> 02:25:00,040
Speaker 2: all of our oil, land and other assets have to

2462
02:25:00,120 --> 02:25:01,400
Speaker 2: be returned to the United States.

2463
02:25:01,520 --> 02:25:03,439
Speaker 6: Which, like he's talking.

2464
02:25:03,200 --> 02:25:06,720
Speaker 2: About oil that American companies have had at points like

2465
02:25:06,840 --> 02:25:10,520
Speaker 2: contracts to exploit. But he's phrasing it is like their

2466
02:25:10,600 --> 02:25:13,120
Speaker 2: land and oil is our land and oil, which yeah,

2467
02:25:13,160 --> 02:25:15,240
Speaker 2: I think that's a very colonial way of phrasing like

2468
02:25:15,800 --> 02:25:16,439
Speaker 2: a contract.

2469
02:25:17,720 --> 02:25:18,039
Speaker 3: Again.

2470
02:25:18,240 --> 02:25:21,080
Speaker 2: A lot of times, you know, I would be like, Okay, well,

2471
02:25:21,120 --> 02:25:23,160
Speaker 2: I don't know if war is the most reasonable thing

2472
02:25:23,240 --> 02:25:26,160
Speaker 2: to expect. When the president's posting shit like that, it's

2473
02:25:26,360 --> 02:25:28,440
Speaker 2: very reasonable to be like, I think we might.

2474
02:25:28,400 --> 02:25:28,840
Speaker 4: Go to war.

2475
02:25:29,120 --> 02:25:31,840
Speaker 8: I think he might be about to invade Venezuela. I

2476
02:25:31,959 --> 02:25:34,520
Speaker 8: don't know what's going to happen, but it's you're no

2477
02:25:34,680 --> 02:25:39,160
Speaker 8: longer being like a kooky conspiracy theorist to be like, well,

2478
02:25:39,200 --> 02:25:42,600
Speaker 8: maybe he's about to try to take over Venezuela, and maybe.

2479
02:25:42,400 --> 02:25:45,520
Speaker 6: That is what's coming. Yeah, I don't understand how in

2480
02:25:45,600 --> 02:25:49,240
Speaker 6: that instance they would continue to get Venezuela to accept people.

2481
02:25:49,360 --> 02:25:53,680
Speaker 6: It's the US is removing. That's what the sticking points

2482
02:25:53,720 --> 02:25:56,080
Speaker 6: that I see. Maybe he's found at that country right

2483
02:25:56,160 --> 02:25:59,720
Speaker 6: that they've they've been very fond of finding the countries.

2484
02:26:00,640 --> 02:26:04,320
Speaker 6: I guess I should explain a little bit about oil

2485
02:26:04,560 --> 02:26:07,840
Speaker 6: leaving Venezuela, just so like people are aware of that.

2486
02:26:08,480 --> 02:26:12,720
Speaker 6: So like Robert read the truth, someone says in church,

2487
02:26:12,840 --> 02:26:16,720
Speaker 6: doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, here we are. So they're talking

2488
02:26:16,720 --> 02:26:21,320
Speaker 6: about like blockading sanctioned oil tankers, not necessarily every tanker

2489
02:26:21,400 --> 02:26:24,080
Speaker 6: that enters Venezuela. Is sanctioned, like I believe Chevron has

2490
02:26:24,120 --> 02:26:28,080
Speaker 6: some contracts with Chevron. Tankers should be cruising, Yeah, there's

2491
02:26:28,080 --> 02:26:30,360
Speaker 6: a lot of Chevron. Yeah, that shouldn't be an issue, right,

2492
02:26:30,400 --> 02:26:31,800
Speaker 6: they should be able to go back and forth. They're

2493
02:26:31,840 --> 02:26:32,400
Speaker 6: not sanctioned.

2494
02:26:33,160 --> 02:26:36,360
Speaker 8: It's the Venezuelan State Oil Company, which in English, I

2495
02:26:36,400 --> 02:26:43,080
Speaker 8: guess you would say Pdvsavasa Divasa's yeah, yeah, yeah, what

2496
02:26:43,280 --> 02:26:45,959
Speaker 8: Venezuela has done previously, and this is not by any

2497
02:26:46,000 --> 02:26:50,200
Speaker 8: means unique to Venezuela, but this is generally how many

2498
02:26:50,280 --> 02:26:52,440
Speaker 8: of these regimes that are kind of in the ambit

2499
02:26:52,520 --> 02:26:55,400
Speaker 8: of Venezuela I'm talking about Iran and Russia here have

2500
02:26:55,560 --> 02:26:59,760
Speaker 8: avoided sanctions and sanctioned entities so far as by using

2501
02:26:59,800 --> 02:27:01,360
Speaker 8: what A called ghost ships.

2502
02:27:01,800 --> 02:27:05,480
Speaker 6: I will link to an explainer on this. What they

2503
02:27:05,520 --> 02:27:08,360
Speaker 6: will do is use the names and identify as the

2504
02:27:08,480 --> 02:27:11,800
Speaker 6: vessels that have been scrapped. They will change the flags

2505
02:27:12,000 --> 02:27:15,320
Speaker 6: of vessels, often to these small island nations for whom

2506
02:27:15,560 --> 02:27:18,240
Speaker 6: allowing ships to use their flag as kind of a

2507
02:27:18,320 --> 02:27:22,800
Speaker 6: source of income, right, And they will often use these

2508
02:27:23,280 --> 02:27:27,560
Speaker 6: to go out into international waters and then offload cargo,

2509
02:27:27,680 --> 02:27:28,400
Speaker 6: in this case oil.

2510
02:27:28,480 --> 02:27:28,600
Speaker 3: Right.

2511
02:27:28,600 --> 02:27:31,720
Speaker 6: So it just happens pretty frequently with Venezuelan vessels. That

2512
02:27:31,920 --> 02:27:34,640
Speaker 6: was one It was one such vessel called the Skipper

2513
02:27:34,760 --> 02:27:38,000
Speaker 6: that the US Coast Guard boarded I think last week

2514
02:27:38,080 --> 02:27:41,359
Speaker 6: as we're recording this. Yeah, sure, that is how Venezuela

2515
02:27:41,440 --> 02:27:44,880
Speaker 6: has previously been evading these sanctions, right, And Iran does

2516
02:27:44,920 --> 02:27:48,280
Speaker 6: this too, Russia does this too. They also do things

2517
02:27:48,320 --> 02:27:51,640
Speaker 6: like spoof their location or turn off their They have

2518
02:27:51,760 --> 02:27:53,920
Speaker 6: like a locator beacon that ships are supposed to use

2519
02:27:54,080 --> 02:27:58,359
Speaker 6: a transpond area. Yeah, so this is fairly common practice.

2520
02:27:58,480 --> 02:28:01,240
Speaker 6: But obviously the way to stop that a physical blockade, right, Like,

2521
02:28:01,560 --> 02:28:04,440
Speaker 6: that's not going to be possible if these if the

2522
02:28:04,560 --> 02:28:09,000
Speaker 6: US is effectively like inspecting ships leaving Venezuela, right or

2523
02:28:09,280 --> 02:28:11,600
Speaker 6: sort of keeping a very close eye on them, so

2524
02:28:12,200 --> 02:28:14,360
Speaker 6: that will end and with that will end a very

2525
02:28:15,080 --> 02:28:17,800
Speaker 6: important source of income for the Maduta regime if they

2526
02:28:17,879 --> 02:28:18,400
Speaker 6: keep doing this.

2527
02:28:19,440 --> 02:28:19,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2528
02:28:20,200 --> 02:28:22,640
Speaker 3: Now, obviously one of the sort of issues we're trying

2529
02:28:22,680 --> 02:28:24,440
Speaker 3: to work out what is going to happen here, especially

2530
02:28:24,520 --> 02:28:27,480
Speaker 3: before whatever speech Trump is about to give, is that

2531
02:28:27,760 --> 02:28:31,680
Speaker 3: we're trying to figure out state policy from Trump posting, right, Yeah,

2532
02:28:31,879 --> 02:28:34,119
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of this that is enormously incoherent.

2533
02:28:34,240 --> 02:28:37,920
Speaker 3: So okay, the thing about designating the government of Venezuela

2534
02:28:38,000 --> 02:28:41,879
Speaker 3: as a foreign terrorist organization is one of the weirdest

2535
02:28:42,040 --> 02:28:45,880
Speaker 3: things I've ever seen. And this was also unhinged. The

2536
02:28:46,000 --> 02:28:48,920
Speaker 3: closest thing we've ever really gotten to that I guess

2537
02:28:49,120 --> 02:28:52,840
Speaker 3: was the IERGC. Yeah, and maybe you could go back

2538
02:28:52,920 --> 02:28:56,640
Speaker 3: and say the Khmer Rouge, but like, they weren't really

2539
02:28:56,760 --> 02:29:00,760
Speaker 3: a government by that point. So this is this is

2540
02:29:00,840 --> 02:29:02,840
Speaker 3: not a designation that has ever been given to a

2541
02:29:03,000 --> 02:29:05,800
Speaker 3: government before. Right, it doesn't make any sense to give

2542
02:29:05,840 --> 02:29:07,840
Speaker 3: it to a government. It doesn't make sense to give

2543
02:29:07,879 --> 02:29:09,640
Speaker 3: to this government. I mean, you know, even if you're

2544
02:29:09,680 --> 02:29:11,880
Speaker 3: working with in the logic of counter terrorism, which is

2545
02:29:12,040 --> 02:29:16,440
Speaker 3: just you know, unhinged murderous imperialism to begin with. But

2546
02:29:16,959 --> 02:29:19,440
Speaker 3: all of the reporting on this has been assuming that

2547
02:29:19,560 --> 02:29:22,920
Speaker 3: the blockade will be of you know, like of these

2548
02:29:22,920 --> 02:29:27,920
Speaker 3: specifically sanctioned oil tankers. However, come the thing about the

2549
02:29:27,920 --> 02:29:31,680
Speaker 3: foreign terrorist organization designation is that it does things. And

2550
02:29:31,760 --> 02:29:36,039
Speaker 3: one of the things that that foreign terrorist organization designation

2551
02:29:36,240 --> 02:29:38,120
Speaker 3: does is that if you do business with a with

2552
02:29:38,160 --> 02:29:41,640
Speaker 3: a foreign terrorist organization, you are now immediately on the

2553
02:29:41,760 --> 02:29:46,360
Speaker 3: line from material support of terrorism charges like Chevron. So yes,

2554
02:29:46,760 --> 02:29:50,039
Speaker 3: there are lots of countries like Facebook, does.

2555
02:29:49,959 --> 02:29:53,240
Speaker 2: This fine with the US military carrying out air strikes

2556
02:29:53,280 --> 02:29:56,560
Speaker 2: on Chevron executives and there and their property.

2557
02:29:56,720 --> 02:29:57,800
Speaker 6: Let's be clear about that.

2558
02:29:58,400 --> 02:30:00,840
Speaker 8: I would I would salute the had, white and blue

2559
02:30:00,879 --> 02:30:03,160
Speaker 8: if we dropped some hell fires on that C suite.

2560
02:30:05,400 --> 02:30:08,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. This is all very weird. My

2561
02:30:08,120 --> 02:30:11,680
Speaker 3: understanding of the FTO designation process is that, well, how

2562
02:30:11,680 --> 02:30:14,600
Speaker 3: it's supposed to work is that the President proposes it,

2563
02:30:14,760 --> 02:30:17,600
Speaker 3: and then the Secretary of State and Secretary of the

2564
02:30:17,680 --> 02:30:20,680
Speaker 3: Treasurer I think, have to improve it, and then there's

2565
02:30:20,720 --> 02:30:23,840
Speaker 3: a seven day period where Congress has it an opportunity

2566
02:30:23,959 --> 02:30:27,360
Speaker 3: to say no, and then it goes up. So right

2567
02:30:27,440 --> 02:30:30,360
Speaker 3: now we should be theoretically in the seven day window,

2568
02:30:30,440 --> 02:30:32,720
Speaker 3: but it's also really unclear what the administration has actually

2569
02:30:32,800 --> 02:30:38,720
Speaker 3: been doing because again we're being governed by post. Yeah.

2570
02:30:38,840 --> 02:30:41,920
Speaker 8: Like it's so it's not announced as an executive action

2571
02:30:42,040 --> 02:30:45,120
Speaker 8: on White House dot gov, and I think normally it

2572
02:30:45,280 --> 02:30:50,279
Speaker 8: goes there and then the seven day congressional period commences.

2573
02:30:50,360 --> 02:30:53,120
Speaker 6: Then it's not an a federal rights to either. Right now,

2574
02:30:53,280 --> 02:30:55,720
Speaker 6: all we have is a truth, so.

2575
02:30:56,080 --> 02:30:58,360
Speaker 3: Like yeah, like and this is this is the problem

2576
02:30:58,400 --> 02:30:59,920
Speaker 3: is that this is this is sort of the Calvin

2577
02:31:00,280 --> 02:31:04,080
Speaker 3: War in that they're using they're using the names of

2578
02:31:04,240 --> 02:31:07,800
Speaker 3: actual legal categories and things that have material effects in

2579
02:31:07,800 --> 02:31:10,160
Speaker 3: the world, but they're just posts. And I want to

2580
02:31:10,400 --> 02:31:13,879
Speaker 3: be very clear about this. Even just doing a blockade

2581
02:31:14,400 --> 02:31:17,560
Speaker 3: on these sanctioned vessels is an active war. Yeah, like

2582
02:31:17,680 --> 02:31:20,960
Speaker 3: that's an act that's very deliberately an active war. It

2583
02:31:21,120 --> 02:31:24,160
Speaker 3: is an active imperial aggression. It is morally wrong. It

2584
02:31:24,320 --> 02:31:28,680
Speaker 3: is also unbelievably illegal under the War Powers Act. And this,

2585
02:31:28,879 --> 02:31:31,400
Speaker 3: this is, this has actually gotten a response from Democrats

2586
02:31:31,440 --> 02:31:35,600
Speaker 3: in Congress. There's been a few measures. CBS is reporting

2587
02:31:35,640 --> 02:31:37,920
Speaker 3: this has been if there's been a few measures to

2588
02:31:38,360 --> 02:31:41,360
Speaker 3: stop the president from starting a war. Here, I'm going

2589
02:31:41,440 --> 02:31:44,880
Speaker 3: to quote CBS. A second measure from Democratic Rep. Jim

2590
02:31:44,959 --> 02:31:49,039
Speaker 3: mcgovernor in Massachusetts would remove the armed forces quote from

2591
02:31:49,120 --> 02:31:52,160
Speaker 3: hostilities with or against Venezuela that have not been authorized

2592
02:31:52,160 --> 02:31:56,440
Speaker 3: by Congress. McGovern's resolution could face the best chance of

2593
02:31:56,560 --> 02:32:00,720
Speaker 3: potential adoption since it has three gop CO sponsors. Rep's

2594
02:32:00,760 --> 02:32:03,800
Speaker 3: Marjory Taylor Green of Georgia, Thomas Massey of Kentucky, and

2595
02:32:03,920 --> 02:32:06,880
Speaker 3: Don Bacon of Nebraska. Bacon says, you would also vote

2596
02:32:06,879 --> 02:32:09,720
Speaker 3: and vi here Meeks's measure. Bacon's taking a very weird

2597
02:32:09,800 --> 02:32:12,880
Speaker 3: line here of Keene's in congressional approval. And also I

2598
02:32:12,959 --> 02:32:13,879
Speaker 3: support him doing this.

2599
02:32:14,920 --> 02:32:17,280
Speaker 6: So surely a procedural objection.

2600
02:32:17,800 --> 02:32:20,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a I want my boar, but I want

2601
02:32:20,240 --> 02:32:24,120
Speaker 3: Congress to have a little shred of power. Yeah, so

2602
02:32:24,400 --> 02:32:27,080
Speaker 3: I think it's alcial work noting what exactly is going

2603
02:32:27,120 --> 02:32:30,640
Speaker 3: on here. I'm someone who's on the record as talking

2604
02:32:30,680 --> 02:32:34,680
Speaker 3: about how political economy in Latin America and American imperialism

2605
02:32:34,800 --> 02:32:37,440
Speaker 3: is usually slightly more complicated than they just want to resource,

2606
02:32:37,520 --> 02:32:40,840
Speaker 3: but they just want to resource here. Yeah, this one,

2607
02:32:41,000 --> 02:32:43,920
Speaker 3: this one really is Yeah, no, like so it's only

2608
02:32:44,000 --> 02:32:46,440
Speaker 3: like like like Bolivia, for example, every everyone thinks that

2609
02:32:46,480 --> 02:32:50,320
Speaker 3: that the whole coup Oblivia was about lithium and it yest. Yeah,

2610
02:32:50,440 --> 02:32:51,400
Speaker 3: I'm very mad about this.

2611
02:32:51,720 --> 02:32:52,080
Speaker 7: It was not.

2612
02:32:52,240 --> 02:32:53,920
Speaker 3: If you look at the people of you look at Camato,

2613
02:32:53,920 --> 02:32:55,600
Speaker 3: if you look at people who were actually running that coup,

2614
02:32:55,800 --> 02:32:58,800
Speaker 3: they were all Bolivia agrobarons. Because a huge part of

2615
02:32:58,840 --> 02:33:01,240
Speaker 3: what was going on there was a rebellion by the

2616
02:33:01,320 --> 02:33:05,080
Speaker 3: sort of agrobusiness like agricultural elite who like joined with

2617
02:33:05,240 --> 02:33:07,480
Speaker 3: parts of like a reactionary every middle class. Okay, but

2618
02:33:07,800 --> 02:33:12,199
Speaker 3: this is not that Venezuela has the world's largest oil preserves,

2619
02:33:12,600 --> 02:33:15,560
Speaker 3: but there were significant problems extracting the oil right. Many

2620
02:33:15,600 --> 02:33:17,760
Speaker 3: of these problems stem from the two thousand and two

2621
02:33:17,760 --> 02:33:19,960
Speaker 3: to two thousand and three opposition general strike. This is

2622
02:33:20,040 --> 02:33:24,279
Speaker 3: back after Hugo Chaves was elected. So in two thousand

2623
02:33:24,280 --> 02:33:27,600
Speaker 3: and two there was a coup against Chaves that failed

2624
02:33:28,040 --> 02:33:31,720
Speaker 3: and was sort of overturned famously. But later that year

2625
02:33:32,040 --> 02:33:34,880
Speaker 3: there was also a sort of opposition general strike that

2626
02:33:34,959 --> 02:33:37,880
Speaker 3: lasted from late two thousand and two to early two

2627
02:33:37,879 --> 02:33:40,200
Speaker 3: thousand and three, and a huge part of that general

2628
02:33:40,240 --> 02:33:43,200
Speaker 3: strike was oil workers specifically, and it was very specifically.

2629
02:33:44,120 --> 02:33:45,800
Speaker 3: One of the things about the structure of oil production

2630
02:33:45,920 --> 02:33:48,120
Speaker 3: is that there were a bunch of very very highly

2631
02:33:48,280 --> 02:33:52,160
Speaker 3: paid and highly skilled technical workers who are very very

2632
02:33:52,200 --> 02:33:54,400
Speaker 3: loyal to the oil companies themselves and who are very

2633
02:33:54,480 --> 02:33:56,720
Speaker 3: loyal to who are sort of tend to be very

2634
02:33:56,840 --> 02:34:00,120
Speaker 3: right wing. These people went on strike and sort have

2635
02:34:00,200 --> 02:34:03,600
Speaker 3: got fired on mass. Oil production requires both a huge

2636
02:34:03,640 --> 02:34:06,000
Speaker 3: amount of heavy capital and a bunch of highly skilled workers,

2637
02:34:06,040 --> 02:34:08,640
Speaker 3: and if you don't have both of those things, then

2638
02:34:08,920 --> 02:34:11,120
Speaker 3: you can't do oil extraction. And this has sort of

2639
02:34:12,040 --> 02:34:14,879
Speaker 3: been a recurring problem for the entire time most sort

2640
02:34:14,879 --> 02:34:17,600
Speaker 3: of fugual Trofas and Majuro has been in office is

2641
02:34:17,640 --> 02:34:20,600
Speaker 3: that they haven't had the capacity to actually extract a

2642
02:34:20,640 --> 02:34:23,039
Speaker 3: bunch of the oil. And also they've refused to turn

2643
02:34:23,280 --> 02:34:25,600
Speaker 3: the oil over to more American companies that have already

2644
02:34:25,720 --> 02:34:26,440
Speaker 3: been contracted.

2645
02:34:26,840 --> 02:34:29,160
Speaker 2: And it's also worth noting there's a lot of talk

2646
02:34:29,200 --> 02:34:32,960
Speaker 2: about like Venezuela having the world's largest reserves, and a

2647
02:34:33,160 --> 02:34:37,240
Speaker 2: lot of that is like them jinking the numbers by

2648
02:34:37,360 --> 02:34:39,920
Speaker 2: including a lot of like tire sands, that would be

2649
02:34:40,200 --> 02:34:44,240
Speaker 2: that no one's going to try to get extract like

2650
02:34:44,520 --> 02:34:46,760
Speaker 2: fuel from because it's too expensive and too much of

2651
02:34:46,760 --> 02:34:47,520
Speaker 2: a pain in the ass.

2652
02:34:47,600 --> 02:34:50,879
Speaker 6: It's just not worth it anyway. And also that claims

2653
02:34:50,879 --> 02:34:53,240
Speaker 6: to reserves that are not actually part of Venezuela at

2654
02:34:53,280 --> 02:34:53,840
Speaker 6: this time.

2655
02:34:53,959 --> 02:34:58,720
Speaker 2: Right right, Like we're not working with exact with accurate information.

2656
02:34:59,280 --> 02:35:02,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's messy. And it's also worth noting that like

2657
02:35:02,720 --> 02:35:05,720
Speaker 3: the oil numbers, I mean, obviously all oil numbers are political,

2658
02:35:05,840 --> 02:35:08,360
Speaker 3: but the oil numbers here are extraordinarily political because these

2659
02:35:08,360 --> 02:35:11,080
Speaker 3: are numbers that are basically used as a pitch by

2660
02:35:11,280 --> 02:35:14,440
Speaker 3: sort of like the opposition to try to get a

2661
02:35:14,640 --> 02:35:17,640
Speaker 3: US backed too. And it's also sort of word noting

2662
02:35:17,680 --> 02:35:19,480
Speaker 3: that the other thing that's happening here, and the reason

2663
02:35:19,560 --> 02:35:23,280
Speaker 3: this is all going to probably cause really significant economic

2664
02:35:23,320 --> 02:35:26,360
Speaker 3: problems and probably humanitarian disaster, both in Venezuela and probably

2665
02:35:26,400 --> 02:35:30,800
Speaker 3: also in Cuba, which extensively relies on Venezuelan oil to

2666
02:35:31,160 --> 02:35:34,560
Speaker 3: have their economy function, is that the Venezuelan economy has

2667
02:35:34,640 --> 02:35:39,160
Speaker 3: been really structured around oil in a way that they

2668
02:35:39,280 --> 02:35:42,640
Speaker 3: fail to transition out of multiple times. The first big

2669
02:35:42,720 --> 02:35:45,200
Speaker 3: one I've done in a different episode about this in

2670
02:35:45,240 --> 02:35:47,160
Speaker 3: the neolipicalis my series a bunch of years ago. But

2671
02:35:47,400 --> 02:35:49,440
Speaker 3: you know, there was a whole bunch of delivery sabotage

2672
02:35:49,480 --> 02:35:51,560
Speaker 3: by American car companies over then attempt to build a

2673
02:35:51,560 --> 02:35:54,640
Speaker 3: car industry. There's a long sort of history of this,

2674
02:35:54,800 --> 02:35:56,800
Speaker 3: but it means that both of these countries economies are

2675
02:35:56,879 --> 02:36:00,640
Speaker 3: desperately reliant on oil, and the more of this is

2676
02:36:00,760 --> 02:36:02,720
Speaker 3: just that is cut off, the more fuck it's going

2677
02:36:02,760 --> 02:36:04,520
Speaker 3: to get for just everyone in Venezuela.

2678
02:36:04,800 --> 02:36:07,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, and you can already see how much worse

2679
02:36:07,680 --> 02:36:11,880
Speaker 6: it's got from the time I went to Venezuela to

2680
02:36:12,040 --> 02:36:14,600
Speaker 6: to now, like, they're very vulnerable to changes in crude

2681
02:36:14,640 --> 02:36:19,200
Speaker 6: oil prices, right, and that has, along with corruption in

2682
02:36:19,640 --> 02:36:21,520
Speaker 6: a government which doesn't really give a shit about the

2683
02:36:21,640 --> 02:36:25,960
Speaker 6: material welfare of its people, has already made things unsustainably

2684
02:36:26,040 --> 02:36:28,240
Speaker 6: hard for people in Venezuela. And that will only get worse.

2685
02:36:28,720 --> 02:36:32,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I want to conclude, basically on a couple

2686
02:36:32,959 --> 02:36:35,240
Speaker 3: of things. Wonders that too, this is going to cause

2687
02:36:35,560 --> 02:36:40,600
Speaker 3: more waves of migration and refugees fleeing the country, both

2688
02:36:40,640 --> 02:36:43,400
Speaker 3: from potential realist military strikes and form the economic damage.

2689
02:36:44,200 --> 02:36:47,000
Speaker 3: There's been some moves in the international stage, with China

2690
02:36:47,040 --> 02:36:50,920
Speaker 3: and Mexico expressing support for the Venezuelan government. Shine Bomber

2691
02:36:50,920 --> 02:36:55,080
Speaker 3: in Mexico has offered to facilitate negotiations and media negotiations

2692
02:36:55,120 --> 02:36:57,960
Speaker 3: from the US and Venezuela. It's also kind of worth

2693
02:36:58,000 --> 02:37:00,800
Speaker 3: noting that right before the whole thing, there is a

2694
02:37:00,840 --> 02:37:05,640
Speaker 3: giant Vanity Fair interview with Susie Wiles, who's Trump's chief

2695
02:37:05,720 --> 02:37:10,080
Speaker 3: of staff. Who oh boy, this is for Roiderry Dubbs.

2696
02:37:10,120 --> 02:37:13,400
Speaker 3: This week Coller here God said, Trump quote wants to

2697
02:37:13,520 --> 02:37:16,880
Speaker 3: keep blowing up boats until Maduro christ Uncle, which is

2698
02:37:17,640 --> 02:37:20,320
Speaker 3: one of the most hideous things I've ever heard. Yeah,

2699
02:37:20,959 --> 02:37:25,400
Speaker 3: it's gangsters, it's literally terrorism. It's it's a highway.

2700
02:37:25,560 --> 02:37:25,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2701
02:37:26,280 --> 02:37:29,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is in Australia structurally, unless you resign, we

2702
02:37:29,600 --> 02:37:33,360
Speaker 3: are going to keep killing civilians. But it's hartshest taker ship. Yeah.

2703
02:37:33,560 --> 02:37:37,400
Speaker 8: It's also a fundamental misunderstanding of how the regime operates

2704
02:37:37,400 --> 02:37:38,080
Speaker 8: if that is the case.

2705
02:37:38,120 --> 02:37:40,640
Speaker 6: So because they don't care if their people kept dying.

2706
02:37:40,959 --> 02:37:45,240
Speaker 8: I have seen Venezuela and people die in the Darian Gap, right,

2707
02:37:45,640 --> 02:37:49,360
Speaker 8: because in part the government is incapable of providing for

2708
02:37:49,440 --> 02:37:50,200
Speaker 8: their material needs.

2709
02:37:50,280 --> 02:37:53,880
Speaker 6: They don't care. Killing some other people with boats is

2710
02:37:53,959 --> 02:37:56,520
Speaker 6: not going to fundamentally change the way that government works,

2711
02:37:56,520 --> 02:37:58,320
Speaker 6: because there's only one way it can work.

2712
02:37:59,120 --> 02:38:00,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think I think there's the one lat

2713
02:38:00,840 --> 02:38:02,840
Speaker 3: thing I want to say about this before we head

2714
02:38:02,879 --> 02:38:05,959
Speaker 3: out slash, before whatever giant update comes after the speech.

2715
02:38:06,520 --> 02:38:08,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've got one after you finish here.

2716
02:38:08,600 --> 02:38:10,160
Speaker 3: One of the big problems here is if people in

2717
02:38:10,200 --> 02:38:13,360
Speaker 3: the administration really do believe this, they actually do think

2718
02:38:13,400 --> 02:38:15,400
Speaker 3: that you can knock off the governments with air strikes,

2719
02:38:15,440 --> 02:38:17,560
Speaker 3: and no you can't, No you can't. I thought this

2720
02:38:17,640 --> 02:38:21,360
Speaker 3: about the Huthies too. It's wrong, it's never been right.

2721
02:38:21,640 --> 02:38:22,440
Speaker 7: It's hideous.

2722
02:38:23,160 --> 02:38:26,240
Speaker 2: We just finished doing like a five parter on bastards

2723
02:38:26,400 --> 02:38:29,360
Speaker 2: about like the nuclear doom state device that also dealt

2724
02:38:29,400 --> 02:38:33,360
Speaker 2: heavily with the work of that Italian Air Force General Duhey,

2725
02:38:33,520 --> 02:38:35,760
Speaker 2: who was the first guy in nineteen twenty one to

2726
02:38:35,840 --> 02:38:38,640
Speaker 2: be like, all you need are bombers, nothing else is

2727
02:38:38,760 --> 02:38:41,880
Speaker 2: necessary in militaries now it's nothing but bombers from here,

2728
02:38:41,920 --> 02:38:43,440
Speaker 2: and if you have enough bombers, no one will ever

2729
02:38:43,480 --> 02:38:46,640
Speaker 2: attack you. And this logic has always been wrong. And

2730
02:38:46,760 --> 02:38:51,520
Speaker 2: it's also every new generation of like military leaders, especially

2731
02:38:51,680 --> 02:38:54,959
Speaker 2: in the air power field, are like, all we need

2732
02:38:55,120 --> 02:38:57,480
Speaker 2: is air strikes. You don't need to send in ground.

2733
02:38:57,560 --> 02:38:59,800
Speaker 2: You could accomplish all of your goals, all of your

2734
02:39:00,040 --> 02:39:03,880
Speaker 2: our projection, just by bombing people or shooting missiles at them.

2735
02:39:04,160 --> 02:39:08,200
Speaker 2: And they're always wrong. It doesn't work. It's just not effective.

2736
02:39:08,680 --> 02:39:11,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, Like I think the Trump administration is somewhat I

2737
02:39:11,520 --> 02:39:13,160
Speaker 6: don't want to say high on its own supply. They

2738
02:39:13,240 --> 02:39:18,680
Speaker 6: had success in Syria with removing the territorial Caliphate, mostly

2739
02:39:18,959 --> 02:39:20,400
Speaker 6: using US air power.

2740
02:39:20,480 --> 02:39:23,600
Speaker 8: Right, it wasn't a big US that was the US part.

2741
02:39:23,720 --> 02:39:27,320
Speaker 8: There was still a this shitload of Kurdish.

2742
02:39:27,520 --> 02:39:28,080
Speaker 3: But it's the thing.

2743
02:39:28,840 --> 02:39:33,760
Speaker 6: And yeah, eleven twelve thousand Kurdish people died to remove

2744
02:39:33,800 --> 02:39:36,080
Speaker 6: the Islamic more have died since, right, Yeah.

2745
02:39:36,160 --> 02:39:40,720
Speaker 2: And also a shitload of Iraqi soldiers, a mix of

2746
02:39:40,800 --> 02:39:44,680
Speaker 2: Kurds and largely guys from in and around Baghdad, but like, yeah,

2747
02:39:44,800 --> 02:39:45,240
Speaker 2: like a lot.

2748
02:39:45,160 --> 02:39:48,040
Speaker 6: Of and a bunch of Arab Syrians. And I don't

2749
02:39:48,080 --> 02:39:52,240
Speaker 6: miss it like ethnically geeky this at all Assyrian people Armenian.

2750
02:39:51,920 --> 02:39:55,280
Speaker 8: No, But like a huge amount of the effort was guys.

2751
02:39:55,360 --> 02:39:56,920
Speaker 8: I mean literally I was in bed with some of

2752
02:39:57,000 --> 02:39:59,440
Speaker 8: these guys a lot of Like the fighting tip was

2753
02:39:59,520 --> 02:40:02,840
Speaker 8: like literally really dudes with fucking knives and hand grenade.

2754
02:40:02,879 --> 02:40:06,440
Speaker 6: It's clearing buildings in hand to hand com Yeah, those

2755
02:40:06,520 --> 02:40:09,280
Speaker 6: were the people who faced danger, right, like, and that's

2756
02:40:09,320 --> 02:40:12,360
Speaker 6: what you need to Unfortunately you can't do war with

2757
02:40:12,440 --> 02:40:15,440
Speaker 6: computers yet. Yeah, but yeah, I think that that might

2758
02:40:15,520 --> 02:40:18,680
Speaker 6: be where this this belief that and like the Marca

2759
02:40:18,760 --> 02:40:23,080
Speaker 6: Rubio lobby, right, the Florida Cubans who are invested in

2760
02:40:23,200 --> 02:40:26,280
Speaker 6: this kind of Trump corrollary to the Monroe doctrine, right,

2761
02:40:26,320 --> 02:40:28,760
Speaker 6: and the idea that they can roll back leftist regimes

2762
02:40:28,920 --> 02:40:33,119
Speaker 6: in uh like South and Central America. Yep. I think

2763
02:40:33,160 --> 02:40:35,200
Speaker 6: that's where a lot of the pressure is coming from.

2764
02:40:35,560 --> 02:40:38,440
Speaker 8: Yeah, speaking of pressure, we are being pressured to go

2765
02:40:38,640 --> 02:40:53,720
Speaker 8: to ads. That's right, beautiful, and we're back. There's an

2766
02:40:53,800 --> 02:40:56,240
Speaker 8: update I just came across as we're doing this. We

2767
02:40:56,360 --> 02:40:59,040
Speaker 8: talked about how Tucker is an inside source saying that

2768
02:40:59,080 --> 02:41:02,360
Speaker 8: Trump's basically gonna clare war. There's another article that just

2769
02:41:02,440 --> 02:41:07,080
Speaker 8: came out on Stitch Snitches by Gloria Shaw, citing a

2770
02:41:07,600 --> 02:41:11,240
Speaker 8: pro Trump host on Real America's Voice who characterized the

2771
02:41:11,360 --> 02:41:15,360
Speaker 8: upcoming Oval Office address as a pr thing meant basically

2772
02:41:16,000 --> 02:41:18,360
Speaker 8: as an acknowledgment that a lot of Trump's voters are

2773
02:41:18,400 --> 02:41:22,920
Speaker 8: frustrated that he keeps talking about like international issues like Venezuela,

2774
02:41:23,320 --> 02:41:25,959
Speaker 8: while everything is more expensive for them and they continue

2775
02:41:26,000 --> 02:41:28,640
Speaker 8: to lose their jobs and the economy is shit. To

2776
02:41:28,800 --> 02:41:32,040
Speaker 8: quote from that article, and this is them quoting a

2777
02:41:32,200 --> 02:41:35,880
Speaker 8: segment from that Real America's Voice podcast. The remarks came

2778
02:41:35,959 --> 02:41:37,680
Speaker 8: during a segment on The water Cooler with co host

2779
02:41:37,760 --> 02:41:39,879
Speaker 8: David Brody, who teas the nine pm Eastern address as

2780
02:41:39,879 --> 02:41:42,720
Speaker 8: an elevated effort to regain the narrative on affordability. The

2781
02:41:42,800 --> 02:41:44,640
Speaker 8: President is going to be in the Oval Office tonight

2782
02:41:44,720 --> 02:41:46,959
Speaker 8: nine pm Eastern, Brody said, big address to the nation.

2783
02:41:47,080 --> 02:41:49,640
Speaker 8: He's elevating this clearly, this is to regain the narrative

2784
02:41:49,640 --> 02:41:51,920
Speaker 8: and explain more about the affordability issue in America and

2785
02:41:51,959 --> 02:41:54,240
Speaker 8: what this administration is doing. I think they're trying to

2786
02:41:54,280 --> 02:41:55,680
Speaker 8: seize this right off the top and make sure it

2787
02:41:55,680 --> 02:41:57,680
Speaker 8: doesn't get away from them and the Claims Series.

2788
02:41:57,680 --> 02:42:00,160
Speaker 2: Basically, like this is Trump trying to steal an night

2789
02:42:00,240 --> 02:42:03,519
Speaker 2: March on the twenty twenty six election cycle and reset

2790
02:42:04,160 --> 02:42:07,200
Speaker 2: a lot of what people are talking about around affordability.

2791
02:42:07,760 --> 02:42:11,160
Speaker 2: Like this argument is that now he's basically acknowledging that

2792
02:42:11,240 --> 02:42:13,280
Speaker 2: it's been kind of a mistake to focus so much

2793
02:42:13,560 --> 02:42:18,039
Speaker 2: on his overseas policies, and he really needs to start

2794
02:42:18,160 --> 02:42:20,800
Speaker 2: promising that that Golden Age is actually going to come

2795
02:42:20,879 --> 02:42:24,959
Speaker 2: for his voters, which the numbers don't bear out right,

2796
02:42:25,200 --> 02:42:28,040
Speaker 2: Like almost no jobs have been added in the US

2797
02:42:28,120 --> 02:42:32,000
Speaker 2: since April. There's about seven hundred thousand more people unemployed

2798
02:42:32,040 --> 02:42:34,280
Speaker 2: now than there were in November of twenty twenty four.

2799
02:42:34,400 --> 02:42:37,520
Speaker 2: Like things aren't yeah good, Inflation is still wild, Inflation

2800
02:42:37,760 --> 02:42:42,480
Speaker 2: is real bad. Look food and like the material things

2801
02:42:42,520 --> 02:42:46,560
Speaker 2: that we need are going up in price faster than inflation,

2802
02:42:46,720 --> 02:42:49,280
Speaker 2: Like it's no good, and people like on his own

2803
02:42:49,360 --> 02:42:52,360
Speaker 2: side the thought. Jessica Tarlov, who's a Fox News host

2804
02:42:52,440 --> 02:42:56,240
Speaker 2: of The Five Quote, tweeted a post about how like

2805
02:42:56,360 --> 02:42:59,840
Speaker 2: the hiring recession just with the golden age attached with

2806
02:43:00,000 --> 02:43:01,840
Speaker 2: which is like what Trump has been saying. You know,

2807
02:43:01,879 --> 02:43:03,400
Speaker 2: we're going to have a new Golden age if you

2808
02:43:03,480 --> 02:43:07,080
Speaker 2: make me president. So like the fact that he hasn't

2809
02:43:07,160 --> 02:43:09,600
Speaker 2: done he hasn't followed through in any of his promises

2810
02:43:09,640 --> 02:43:13,840
Speaker 2: to actually improve life for his voters, or the economy

2811
02:43:14,520 --> 02:43:17,720
Speaker 2: is starting to hurt. And I guess I'm hopeful that

2812
02:43:17,959 --> 02:43:20,160
Speaker 2: that's what it is, rather than the Marines are about

2813
02:43:20,160 --> 02:43:22,560
Speaker 2: to be in Caracas, right, but I guess we'll see

2814
02:43:22,760 --> 02:43:23,200
Speaker 2: very soon.

2815
02:43:23,879 --> 02:43:29,039
Speaker 6: Yeah, great stuff. Yeah, talking of international stuff Trump is doing,

2816
02:43:29,360 --> 02:43:32,520
Speaker 6: let's talk about the new travel ban. So this this

2817
02:43:32,680 --> 02:43:36,120
Speaker 6: travel band dropped yesterday, that was Tuesday. So it previously

2818
02:43:36,160 --> 02:43:38,960
Speaker 6: had this nineteen country travel ban, right. Some of that

2819
02:43:39,240 --> 02:43:41,880
Speaker 6: was a complete bar to entry if for citizens of

2820
02:43:41,920 --> 02:43:45,320
Speaker 6: those countries or to new these entries. Some of it

2821
02:43:45,480 --> 02:43:49,240
Speaker 6: was a partial bar to immigrant visas, not to not

2822
02:43:49,360 --> 02:43:50,480
Speaker 6: to non immigrant visas.

2823
02:43:50,560 --> 02:43:50,680
Speaker 7: Right.

2824
02:43:51,040 --> 02:43:55,040
Speaker 6: They have now expanded this to twenty more countries, so

2825
02:43:55,440 --> 02:43:58,039
Speaker 6: totally banned now from getting new visas to enter the USA.

2826
02:43:58,080 --> 02:44:02,000
Speaker 6: A citizens of Bokina, Fosso, Maalini share South Studan, and

2827
02:44:02,360 --> 02:44:05,640
Speaker 6: Syria as well as a Palestinian authority. The Syrian one

2828
02:44:05,680 --> 02:44:08,360
Speaker 6: is particularly wild because I'll share it justice to the

2829
02:44:08,400 --> 02:44:12,960
Speaker 6: White House. There are like individual case by case exceptions, right. Like,

2830
02:44:13,080 --> 02:44:16,600
Speaker 6: It's not that they wouldn't block al Shara, I'm sure,

2831
02:44:16,640 --> 02:44:20,760
Speaker 6: but like it's interesting to look at the justifications that

2832
02:44:20,879 --> 02:44:23,800
Speaker 6: they use here. What they are basically saying, I'll just

2833
02:44:23,879 --> 02:44:26,880
Speaker 6: read a couple of them here to give you an example, right. Quote,

2834
02:44:26,879 --> 02:44:29,480
Speaker 6: at least one country lacks mechanisms in hospitals to ensure

2835
02:44:29,520 --> 02:44:32,640
Speaker 6: bursts are reported, and widespread corruption, combined with a general

2836
02:44:32,760 --> 02:44:35,800
Speaker 6: lack of vecking and poor record keeping, result in any

2837
02:44:35,879 --> 02:44:38,920
Speaker 6: non citizen being able to obtain any civil document from

2838
02:44:39,000 --> 02:44:41,600
Speaker 6: that country, particularly if that person is willing to pay

2839
02:44:41,640 --> 02:44:45,720
Speaker 6: a fee or engage an individual that specializes in assisting

2840
02:44:45,800 --> 02:44:49,959
Speaker 6: in such fraud. They go on to basically document failures

2841
02:44:50,040 --> 02:44:54,200
Speaker 6: in government bureaucracy that they talk about corruption. Right, They

2842
02:44:54,280 --> 02:44:57,199
Speaker 6: talk about places where birth CTIF forgets are just written

2843
02:44:57,360 --> 02:45:00,520
Speaker 6: by hand. They talk about places where they government does

2844
02:45:00,560 --> 02:45:05,240
Speaker 6: not control all the territory, prevalence of crime, places which

2845
02:45:05,280 --> 02:45:10,040
Speaker 6: offer citizenship by investment without physical residents. They also talk

2846
02:45:10,120 --> 02:45:13,400
Speaker 6: about some of these countries not being willing to accept

2847
02:45:13,480 --> 02:45:18,320
Speaker 6: their nationals to the US deports and again visa overstair rates, right,

2848
02:45:18,320 --> 02:45:20,840
Speaker 6: which is what they spoke about last time. What is

2849
02:45:20,879 --> 02:45:23,560
Speaker 6: getting less reporting, or at least was this morning when

2850
02:45:23,560 --> 02:45:28,000
Speaker 6: I looked, was that they have removed exemptions which existed

2851
02:45:28,080 --> 02:45:33,360
Speaker 6: for the previous nineteen. These include family member visas right.

2852
02:45:33,840 --> 02:45:36,840
Speaker 6: So that means that, for instance, someone who could themselves

2853
02:45:36,879 --> 02:45:39,240
Speaker 6: become a permanent resident or even a citizen, now cannot

2854
02:45:39,440 --> 02:45:42,879
Speaker 6: bring a family member, say a spouse, a sibling, etc.

2855
02:45:43,360 --> 02:45:47,160
Speaker 6: Across even though those people were people see vetied. And

2856
02:45:47,560 --> 02:45:52,440
Speaker 6: it appears some there is certain categories of SIVs are exempt,

2857
02:45:52,560 --> 02:45:55,279
Speaker 6: but I believe not all SIVs, so that's especially immigrant

2858
02:45:55,360 --> 02:45:58,520
Speaker 6: visa right. The vast bulk of SIVs will be Afghan

2859
02:45:58,600 --> 02:46:03,240
Speaker 6: people who worked with the US military in Afghanistan. The

2860
02:46:04,320 --> 02:46:08,080
Speaker 6: nineteen countries who are now partially restricted are I'm just

2861
02:46:08,120 --> 02:46:14,039
Speaker 6: going to read them of Angola, Antigram, Barbuda, Benin Kuttivois, Dominica, Gabon,

2862
02:46:14,520 --> 02:46:20,920
Speaker 6: the Gambia, Malawi, Mauritanian, Nigeria, senegauld Tanzania, Tonga, Zambia and Zimbabwe.

2863
02:46:21,680 --> 02:46:24,119
Speaker 6: For some reason, the first five of these are underlined

2864
02:46:24,640 --> 02:46:26,920
Speaker 6: on the White House website. I don't know if some

2865
02:46:27,000 --> 02:46:29,720
Speaker 6: well copied and pisted them across with hyperlinks.

2866
02:46:29,160 --> 02:46:29,960
Speaker 3: Like I don't know.

2867
02:46:30,600 --> 02:46:33,680
Speaker 6: I'm unable to work out why that they're not hyperlinked

2868
02:46:34,080 --> 02:46:36,480
Speaker 6: in the document, but there doesn't seem to be any

2869
02:46:36,959 --> 02:46:39,520
Speaker 6: any explanation like this. There's no special set of sanctions

2870
02:46:39,560 --> 02:46:42,880
Speaker 6: for those and they're just in alphabetical order. They actually

2871
02:46:43,000 --> 02:46:48,039
Speaker 6: reduced restrictions on Turkmenistan because quote suspension of entry into

2872
02:46:48,080 --> 02:46:51,400
Speaker 6: the United States of Nationals of Turkmenistan as non immigrants

2873
02:46:51,480 --> 02:46:55,120
Speaker 6: on B one, B two FM and jvs as is

2874
02:46:55,200 --> 02:46:58,400
Speaker 6: lifted because some concerns remain. The entry into the United

2875
02:46:58,440 --> 02:47:02,360
Speaker 6: States of Nationals of Turkmenistan is immigrants remain suspended. The

2876
02:47:02,640 --> 02:47:05,080
Speaker 6: last element of this that I want to cover is

2877
02:47:05,120 --> 02:47:08,400
Speaker 6: that it would appear to stop international adoptions from the

2878
02:47:08,480 --> 02:47:11,959
Speaker 6: listed countries, like all of those thirty nine listed countries,

2879
02:47:12,840 --> 02:47:17,120
Speaker 6: which is wild and like particularly unfortunate because I know,

2880
02:47:17,360 --> 02:47:21,880
Speaker 6: like people who who adopt children from outside the United

2881
02:47:21,879 --> 02:47:24,000
Speaker 6: States like that is a process that takes years and

2882
02:47:24,400 --> 02:47:26,800
Speaker 6: I can imagine it being horrifically traumatic to have it

2883
02:47:27,440 --> 02:47:31,960
Speaker 6: suddenly cut off like this. But consciously, unconsciously, that is

2884
02:47:32,040 --> 02:47:36,320
Speaker 6: what this UH executive action appears to do. So that

2885
02:47:36,480 --> 02:47:39,280
Speaker 6: is not great. It seems that the United States is

2886
02:47:39,600 --> 02:47:43,920
Speaker 6: using this as a kind of cudgel, right to encourage

2887
02:47:43,920 --> 02:47:46,160
Speaker 6: those countries to It's kind of a quid pro quote.

2888
02:47:46,480 --> 02:47:49,000
Speaker 6: They get what they want they got from Turkmenistan apparently

2889
02:47:49,080 --> 02:47:52,199
Speaker 6: then that they will remove some of those restrictions otherwise

2890
02:47:52,400 --> 02:47:56,560
Speaker 6: they will continue them. So yeah, that's not great. So

2891
02:47:57,120 --> 02:48:00,280
Speaker 6: Judge Hannah Dugan's trial began this week. Do you know,

2892
02:48:00,360 --> 02:48:02,160
Speaker 6: if you're not familiar, she's not the judge in New

2893
02:48:02,200 --> 02:48:05,440
Speaker 6: Mexico who was accused of providing firearms to somebody who

2894
02:48:05,520 --> 02:48:08,080
Speaker 6: was not a permanent resident or citizen. She is a

2895
02:48:08,160 --> 02:48:11,680
Speaker 6: judge who is accused of allowing a migrant man named

2896
02:48:11,680 --> 02:48:15,720
Speaker 6: mister Flores Luise to leave her court room from a

2897
02:48:15,920 --> 02:48:20,560
Speaker 6: door that is not the usual door. That door led

2898
02:48:20,600 --> 02:48:24,400
Speaker 6: to a private corridor. In that private corridor, there was

2899
02:48:24,560 --> 02:48:27,320
Speaker 6: one exit to a public area and also a door

2900
02:48:27,440 --> 02:48:31,080
Speaker 6: to a fire escape mister Flora's ruiz took the exit

2901
02:48:31,160 --> 02:48:34,520
Speaker 6: to the public area. He then took a lift down

2902
02:48:34,800 --> 02:48:37,640
Speaker 6: I think to the ground floor with an ICE officer.

2903
02:48:38,840 --> 02:48:41,800
Speaker 6: He then attempted to run away when ICE officers attempted

2904
02:48:41,840 --> 02:48:44,560
Speaker 6: to detain him. When he left the lift, he was

2905
02:48:44,680 --> 02:48:49,480
Speaker 6: caught and detained. So we learned quite a lot in

2906
02:48:49,640 --> 02:48:52,320
Speaker 6: this and it's just been interesting to follow. First of all,

2907
02:48:52,400 --> 02:48:55,480
Speaker 6: we see that several of the people who were taking

2908
02:48:55,600 --> 02:48:59,200
Speaker 6: part in the apprehension were reassigned FBI agents. This is

2909
02:48:59,320 --> 02:49:05,280
Speaker 6: increasingly right, like all branches of the federal law enforcement

2910
02:49:05,600 --> 02:49:10,240
Speaker 6: have had some of their capacity redirected to doing this, right,

2911
02:49:10,320 --> 02:49:14,359
Speaker 6: to doing like this. This guy, I believe had misdemeanors

2912
02:49:15,480 --> 02:49:19,400
Speaker 6: the agents for using signal to communicate. They had a

2913
02:49:19,440 --> 02:49:25,360
Speaker 6: group chat called frozen water obviously Jesus Christ. Yeah, really funny.

2914
02:49:25,879 --> 02:49:29,240
Speaker 6: The FBI agent conceded in crust examination that's not a

2915
02:49:29,320 --> 02:49:33,600
Speaker 6: NAP approved by the FBI, but according to one the

2916
02:49:33,720 --> 02:49:36,880
Speaker 6: DHS apparently does approve it, according to a CBP agent

2917
02:49:36,879 --> 02:49:40,800
Speaker 6: who is crossic damon there, which obviously creates an issue

2918
02:49:40,840 --> 02:49:44,040
Speaker 6: for the retention of records. Right biggut signal. If you're

2919
02:49:44,040 --> 02:49:46,400
Speaker 6: not familiar auto deletes things after a period of time

2920
02:49:46,480 --> 02:49:50,200
Speaker 6: that users can configure. It also appears that when one

2921
02:49:50,240 --> 02:49:53,600
Speaker 6: of these DHS agents entered the courthouse, court security officers

2922
02:49:53,640 --> 02:49:57,200
Speaker 6: told him that he needed an escort, but then he

2923
02:49:57,280 --> 02:50:01,040
Speaker 6: appears to have proceeded without one. Text to colleagues, as

2924
02:50:01,120 --> 02:50:04,720
Speaker 6: DHS employees said, quote, this is gonna be a pain

2925
02:50:04,840 --> 02:50:11,560
Speaker 6: in the dick. H So that's that. Yeah, what happens,

2926
02:50:11,640 --> 02:50:14,120
Speaker 6: it seems like is Judge Dougan sent them to the

2927
02:50:14,280 --> 02:50:17,039
Speaker 6: chief judge because they didn't have a judicial warrant. It's

2928
02:50:17,040 --> 02:50:18,240
Speaker 6: had an administrative warrant.

2929
02:50:18,400 --> 02:50:18,520
Speaker 3: Right.

2930
02:50:19,360 --> 02:50:24,560
Speaker 6: Another judge testified against Judge Dugan, a judge called Judge Severa.

2931
02:50:25,280 --> 02:50:28,800
Speaker 6: So Judge Severa was with Judge Dugan when they confronted

2932
02:50:28,840 --> 02:50:33,040
Speaker 6: the agents. Judge Jugan wore her judicial robes when confronting them,

2933
02:50:33,080 --> 02:50:35,240
Speaker 6: which apparently is not usual. It's not usual to wear

2934
02:50:35,320 --> 02:50:38,560
Speaker 6: them out of the courtroom, and Judge Severa seemed to

2935
02:50:38,600 --> 02:50:42,560
Speaker 6: disapprove of that, and then she said, quote, Judge Dugan

2936
02:50:43,080 --> 02:50:46,640
Speaker 6: could quote have been more diplomatic, And then she said,

2937
02:50:46,840 --> 02:50:51,280
Speaker 6: quote judges shouldn't be helping defendants evade arrest. At the

2938
02:50:51,440 --> 02:50:55,920
Speaker 6: same time, Judge Dugan's defense lawyer asked her if she

2939
02:50:56,080 --> 02:50:59,800
Speaker 6: had warned her sister of the ice presence, which she had,

2940
02:51:00,360 --> 02:51:02,400
Speaker 6: and it appears to her sister had a hearing at

2941
02:51:02,440 --> 02:51:05,120
Speaker 6: the courthouse the next day, which Judge Severa said she

2942
02:51:05,320 --> 02:51:09,560
Speaker 6: was not aware of. So there's like a lot still

2943
02:51:09,600 --> 02:51:11,600
Speaker 6: to be unpacked here, right, This is just the first day.

2944
02:51:12,000 --> 02:51:14,119
Speaker 6: This could go on path Christmas and into the new year,

2945
02:51:14,320 --> 02:51:17,240
Speaker 6: and it probably will. But there's been some pretty good

2946
02:51:17,720 --> 02:51:20,760
Speaker 6: reporting on this from a substack called all Rise Media,

2947
02:51:21,320 --> 02:51:23,600
Speaker 6: and I will keep checking it on this and we'll

2948
02:51:23,840 --> 02:51:25,920
Speaker 6: report it on it again after the new year.

2949
02:51:29,720 --> 02:51:34,440
Speaker 9: Hello, this is Garrison Davis reporting from Tokyo. Unfortunately, I

2950
02:51:34,520 --> 02:51:39,039
Speaker 9: was unable to attend the regular Executive Disorder Group recording

2951
02:51:39,360 --> 02:51:42,560
Speaker 9: due to being halfway around the globe, so I'm recording

2952
02:51:42,879 --> 02:51:47,600
Speaker 9: my section solo. This past week saw two devastating mass

2953
02:51:47,640 --> 02:51:51,720
Speaker 9: shootings back to back. On Saturday afternoon, a mask shooter

2954
02:51:52,120 --> 02:51:56,080
Speaker 9: entered an economics class at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island,

2955
02:51:56,360 --> 02:51:59,720
Speaker 9: and opened fire with a concealed handgun, killing two people

2956
02:52:00,120 --> 02:52:04,480
Speaker 9: injuring nine others, all students. About thirty minutes after the

2957
02:52:04,560 --> 02:52:09,080
Speaker 9: shooting started, the university police announced a suspect was in custody.

2958
02:52:09,800 --> 02:52:14,560
Speaker 9: Twenty minutes later, they retracted that statement. Then university police

2959
02:52:14,600 --> 02:52:17,840
Speaker 9: reported shots fired in another section of campus, which they

2960
02:52:18,040 --> 02:52:22,760
Speaker 9: also later retracted. President Trump posted on truth social quote,

2961
02:52:23,120 --> 02:52:25,400
Speaker 9: I've been briefed on the shooting that took place at

2962
02:52:25,480 --> 02:52:28,960
Speaker 9: Brown University in Rhode Island. The FBI is on the scene.

2963
02:52:29,320 --> 02:52:33,120
Speaker 9: The suspect is in custody. God bless the victims and

2964
02:52:33,200 --> 02:52:38,360
Speaker 9: the families of the victims. This too was untrue, as

2965
02:52:38,440 --> 02:52:41,800
Speaker 9: the university released a statement about an hour later clarifying

2966
02:52:41,840 --> 02:52:44,600
Speaker 9: that the shooter was not in custody and that over

2967
02:52:44,760 --> 02:52:47,840
Speaker 9: four hundred officers were on the scene to assist in

2968
02:52:47,920 --> 02:52:53,520
Speaker 9: the investigation. The next morning, Providence Mayor Brett Smiley announced

2969
02:52:53,560 --> 02:52:56,959
Speaker 9: that a new person of interest was detained. The Providence

2970
02:52:57,040 --> 02:52:59,480
Speaker 9: police chief told NBC that they were confident that the

2971
02:52:59,520 --> 02:53:04,240
Speaker 9: suspect was the shooter. Major news outlets later named this individual,

2972
02:53:04,840 --> 02:53:08,520
Speaker 9: though later that evening this quote unquote person of interest

2973
02:53:08,879 --> 02:53:12,040
Speaker 9: was released, with the Rhode Island Attorney General saying that

2974
02:53:12,200 --> 02:53:17,320
Speaker 9: the evidence quote now points in a different direction. The

2975
02:53:17,400 --> 02:53:23,240
Speaker 9: shooter currently remains unidentified and at large. On Sunday night,

2976
02:53:23,480 --> 02:53:27,880
Speaker 9: in Sydney, Australia, a father and son Sajid and Navid

2977
02:53:28,040 --> 02:53:32,440
Speaker 9: Akram coordinated a targeted attack against Jewish people attending a

2978
02:53:32,560 --> 02:53:37,480
Speaker 9: Hanukkah event on Bondi Beach. Fifteen people were killed in

2979
02:53:37,600 --> 02:53:40,520
Speaker 9: the shooting. Victims include a ten year old girl and

2980
02:53:40,720 --> 02:53:46,240
Speaker 9: a Holocaust survivor. Twenty four victims remain hospitalized. A bystander

2981
02:53:46,400 --> 02:53:50,760
Speaker 9: named Ahmed al Ahmed, a son of Syrian refugees, charged

2982
02:53:50,920 --> 02:53:54,800
Speaker 9: one of the gunmen and wrestled his gun away. Ahmed

2983
02:53:54,879 --> 02:53:57,920
Speaker 9: was later shot multiple times, but survived and has been

2984
02:53:58,040 --> 02:54:02,280
Speaker 9: labeled a hero by the Austria Prime Minister. Police say

2985
02:54:02,360 --> 02:54:06,119
Speaker 9: that a vehicle used by the gunman contained homemade Islamic

2986
02:54:06,200 --> 02:54:09,760
Speaker 9: state flags and improvised explosive devices. The men were not

2987
02:54:10,080 --> 02:54:12,560
Speaker 9: part of an official terror cell, though the Prime Minister

2988
02:54:12,640 --> 02:54:16,640
Speaker 9: says that they were motivated by Islamic state extremist ideology.

2989
02:54:17,360 --> 02:54:21,000
Speaker 9: Counter Terrorism officials believed the shooters received quote unquote military

2990
02:54:21,120 --> 02:54:24,520
Speaker 9: style training in the Philippines a month before the attack.

2991
02:54:25,720 --> 02:54:30,680
Speaker 9: On Tuesday, self styled online investigators in right wing social

2992
02:54:30,800 --> 02:54:35,680
Speaker 9: media content Mills falsely identified the Brown University shooter as

2993
02:54:35,720 --> 02:54:40,720
Speaker 9: an LGBTQ Palestinian studying at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies,

2994
02:54:41,240 --> 02:54:45,920
Speaker 9: citing gate analysis based on surveillance footage of the unidentified

2995
02:54:46,000 --> 02:54:50,520
Speaker 9: suspect released by police. The university removed this Queer Palestinian

2996
02:54:50,520 --> 02:54:54,120
Speaker 9: student's online profile in an effort to prevent doxing, though

2997
02:54:54,240 --> 02:54:57,119
Speaker 9: this itself was used by the online smear campaign as

2998
02:54:57,240 --> 02:55:01,840
Speaker 9: evidence of guilt. Brown University later published this statement quote

2999
02:55:02,320 --> 02:55:04,879
Speaker 9: in the aftermath of the shooting, We've seen a harmful

3000
02:55:04,959 --> 02:55:07,960
Speaker 9: doxing activity directed towards at least one member of the

3001
02:55:08,040 --> 02:55:11,520
Speaker 9: Brown University community. It's important to make clear that targeting

3002
02:55:11,560 --> 02:55:16,080
Speaker 9: individuals could do a revocable harm. Accusations, speculation, and conspiracies

3003
02:55:16,120 --> 02:55:18,520
Speaker 9: were seeing on social media and in some news reports

3004
02:55:18,520 --> 02:55:21,920
Speaker 9: are irresponsible, harmful, and in some cases dangerous for the

3005
02:55:21,959 --> 02:55:23,760
Speaker 9: safety of individuals.

3006
02:55:23,280 --> 02:55:24,240
Speaker 3: In our community.

3007
02:55:24,760 --> 02:55:27,200
Speaker 9: It is not unusual as a safety measure to take

3008
02:55:27,240 --> 02:55:30,080
Speaker 9: steps to protect an individual's safety when this kind of

3009
02:55:30,120 --> 02:55:35,039
Speaker 9: activity happens, including in regard to their online presence. As

3010
02:55:35,200 --> 02:55:38,600
Speaker 9: law enforcement officials stated clearly on Tuesday afternoon, if this

3011
02:55:38,760 --> 02:55:41,880
Speaker 9: individual's name had any relevance to the current investigation, they

3012
02:55:41,879 --> 02:55:46,320
Speaker 9: would be actively looking for this individual and providing information publicly.

3013
02:55:46,600 --> 02:55:52,080
Speaker 9: On a final note, after the holiday break, we will

3014
02:55:52,160 --> 02:55:56,640
Speaker 9: be reporting on the indictment against four alleged members of

3015
02:55:57,080 --> 02:56:02,560
Speaker 9: the Turtle Island Liberation Front in California regarding a New

3016
02:56:02,680 --> 02:56:04,240
Speaker 9: Year's Eve bombing plot.

3017
02:56:15,440 --> 02:56:17,520
Speaker 2: We're back and we have some news that's going to

3018
02:56:17,560 --> 02:56:21,160
Speaker 2: be really sad for everybody here, and it could happen

3019
02:56:21,240 --> 02:56:23,600
Speaker 2: here and just all of you listening, which is friend

3020
02:56:23,680 --> 02:56:26,800
Speaker 2: of the pod. Dan Bongino is stepping down from his

3021
02:56:27,040 --> 02:56:29,119
Speaker 2: work as Deputy.

3022
02:56:28,760 --> 02:56:30,040
Speaker 6: Director of the FBI.

3023
02:56:31,280 --> 02:56:33,440
Speaker 2: I think it's been a nice vacation for him, but

3024
02:56:33,640 --> 02:56:38,040
Speaker 2: you know, American needs him in his much more important role.

3025
02:56:38,560 --> 02:56:41,240
Speaker 8: Whatever podcast he was doing before he got brought in

3026
02:56:41,320 --> 02:56:43,080
Speaker 8: to the deputy director of the FBI.

3027
02:56:45,040 --> 02:56:47,520
Speaker 2: You know, look, if he was podcasting right now, they

3028
02:56:47,560 --> 02:56:50,000
Speaker 2: would have caught the mass shooter at Brown. I think

3029
02:56:50,040 --> 02:56:51,000
Speaker 2: we can all agree on that.

3030
02:56:51,280 --> 02:56:52,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, he did a put costing his way through it.

3031
02:56:53,280 --> 02:56:54,960
Speaker 6: Either that or just him not being at the FBI

3032
02:56:55,080 --> 02:56:57,240
Speaker 6: would have made the do their job.

3033
02:57:00,879 --> 02:57:02,680
Speaker 3: Look, what we're learning from this is that you can

3034
02:57:02,760 --> 02:57:05,480
Speaker 3: never escape the podcasting minds. No matter where else you

3035
02:57:05,600 --> 02:57:07,680
Speaker 3: try to go, they will drag you back down.

3036
02:57:08,560 --> 02:57:10,840
Speaker 2: Oh look, if you make me director of the FBI,

3037
02:57:11,080 --> 02:57:14,360
Speaker 2: I promise to stop podcasting and start being the most

3038
02:57:14,480 --> 02:57:16,039
Speaker 2: corrupt director of the FBI.

3039
02:57:16,200 --> 02:57:16,840
Speaker 6: We've ever had.

3040
02:57:17,360 --> 02:57:18,800
Speaker 3: That's a tough challenge.

3041
02:57:19,040 --> 02:57:22,600
Speaker 8: I think, you know, I think I'm I'm in the task,

3042
02:57:24,879 --> 02:57:25,840
Speaker 8: prepared to work at it.

3043
02:57:26,360 --> 02:57:28,720
Speaker 6: Yeah. So, yeah, that's cool.

3044
02:57:29,080 --> 02:57:31,720
Speaker 2: I wanted to talk a little bit about an executive

3045
02:57:31,840 --> 02:57:36,160
Speaker 2: order that our beloved President put out very recently. Some

3046
02:57:36,320 --> 02:57:39,879
Speaker 2: of you may be aware of this, but on December eleventh,

3047
02:57:40,040 --> 02:57:43,000
Speaker 2: twenty I mean this year, twenty twenty five, Trump released

3048
02:57:43,040 --> 02:57:45,520
Speaker 2: he had another executive order, this one titled Ensuring a

3049
02:57:45,600 --> 02:57:51,680
Speaker 2: National Policy Framework for Artificial Intelligence. And basically in this

3050
02:57:51,840 --> 02:57:54,120
Speaker 2: and Trump stated that like, the reason he's doing this

3051
02:57:54,280 --> 02:57:57,440
Speaker 2: is because it's absolutely critical to the US's future that

3052
02:57:57,640 --> 02:57:59,880
Speaker 2: we be at the top of the game when it

3053
02:58:00,000 --> 02:58:02,680
Speaker 2: comes to AI, that we be global leaders in this

3054
02:58:03,120 --> 02:58:06,400
Speaker 2: burgeoning new field. He states in the EO, these efforts

3055
02:58:06,440 --> 02:58:09,040
Speaker 2: have already delivered tremendous benefits to the American people and

3056
02:58:09,160 --> 02:58:11,720
Speaker 2: led to trillions of dollars of investments across the country.

3057
02:58:12,160 --> 02:58:14,480
Speaker 2: Certainly haven't, but we were made in the earliest days

3058
02:58:14,480 --> 02:58:17,160
Speaker 2: of the technological revolution and in a race with adversaries

3059
02:58:17,200 --> 02:58:19,840
Speaker 2: for supremacy within it. Trump stated in an interview that

3060
02:58:19,879 --> 02:58:22,920
Speaker 2: he expects AI to be fifty to sixty percent of

3061
02:58:22,959 --> 02:58:25,880
Speaker 2: the US economy in the near future, which is nuts.

3062
02:58:26,080 --> 02:58:27,920
Speaker 2: Maybe that's just because everything else will just go to

3063
02:58:28,000 --> 02:58:28,640
Speaker 2: complete shit.

3064
02:58:28,840 --> 02:58:29,000
Speaker 3: You know.

3065
02:58:30,640 --> 02:58:33,440
Speaker 2: The reality is that like AI is not even close

3066
02:58:33,520 --> 02:58:36,160
Speaker 2: to being that value in terms of like what the

3067
02:58:36,280 --> 02:58:39,840
Speaker 2: economy produces, but nearly all of our growth is related

3068
02:58:39,879 --> 02:58:42,720
Speaker 2: and like it is tied right now to data center investments.

3069
02:58:42,760 --> 02:58:46,119
Speaker 2: So Trump absolutely needs AI because without it the country

3070
02:58:46,240 --> 02:58:49,000
Speaker 2: is very obviously in a recession. Like this is the

3071
02:58:49,080 --> 02:58:52,039
Speaker 2: only thing propping up the image of the economy as

3072
02:58:52,120 --> 02:58:54,560
Speaker 2: not being in the shitter. Now, what does this EO

3073
02:58:54,959 --> 02:58:58,600
Speaker 2: actually do well? The goal of this the statement is

3074
02:58:58,680 --> 02:59:00,160
Speaker 2: that it is the policy of the United State is

3075
02:59:00,200 --> 02:59:02,560
Speaker 2: to sustain and enhance the United States is global AI

3076
02:59:02,720 --> 02:59:06,400
Speaker 2: dominance through a minimally burdened some national policy framework for AI.

3077
02:59:07,000 --> 02:59:10,160
Speaker 2: This EO will establish an AI Litigation Task Force within

3078
02:59:10,320 --> 02:59:12,720
Speaker 2: thirty days of this order going out. The Attorney General

3079
02:59:12,800 --> 02:59:16,120
Speaker 2: is supposed to establish this task force, whose responsibility is

3080
02:59:16,200 --> 02:59:19,920
Speaker 2: to challenge state AI laws that are inconsistent with the

3081
02:59:20,080 --> 02:59:22,920
Speaker 2: policy set forward above. Right, that we need to be

3082
02:59:23,200 --> 02:59:26,760
Speaker 2: globally dominant in AI. Right, So this task force is

3083
02:59:26,760 --> 02:59:28,800
Speaker 2: supposed to go out and find state laws that it

3084
02:59:28,879 --> 02:59:31,320
Speaker 2: believes are like an onerous burden on the development of

3085
02:59:31,400 --> 02:59:34,480
Speaker 2: this technology. Going along with this, within ninety days of

3086
02:59:34,520 --> 02:59:37,280
Speaker 2: the order, the Secretary of Commerce is supposed to do

3087
02:59:37,360 --> 02:59:40,880
Speaker 2: an evaluation of all state AI laws in order to

3088
02:59:41,400 --> 02:59:44,120
Speaker 2: point out which ones this task force should go after.

3089
02:59:44,840 --> 02:59:47,760
Speaker 2: And then the stick that this EO establishes is that

3090
02:59:48,400 --> 02:59:51,640
Speaker 2: if this task force decides that like a state AI

3091
02:59:51,840 --> 02:59:54,879
Speaker 2: law is in violation of our need to be dominant

3092
02:59:54,920 --> 02:59:58,160
Speaker 2: in AI, we can restrict state funding to things like

3093
02:59:58,240 --> 03:00:02,080
Speaker 2: the broadband Equity Access and Ployment program. Right Basically, they'll

3094
03:00:02,120 --> 03:00:05,720
Speaker 2: cut off federal funding for like broadband access in order

3095
03:00:05,840 --> 03:00:10,000
Speaker 2: to punish states that try to restrict or in any

3096
03:00:10,080 --> 03:00:13,000
Speaker 2: way shape or form govern what people can use what

3097
03:00:13,200 --> 03:00:16,400
Speaker 2: companies can use AI for. And the primary thing this

3098
03:00:16,600 --> 03:00:18,360
Speaker 2: is all about, I know, we all think about the

3099
03:00:18,400 --> 03:00:20,680
Speaker 2: stuff that like most people have more direct experience with,

3100
03:00:20,760 --> 03:00:22,760
Speaker 2: which is like all the slop flooding the Internet, the

3101
03:00:22,800 --> 03:00:26,600
Speaker 2: disinformation that's continuing to cook the brains of a lot

3102
03:00:26,680 --> 03:00:29,560
Speaker 2: of our peers and elders, and just the fact that

3103
03:00:29,720 --> 03:00:32,800
Speaker 2: like it's making certain industries full of hardworking people a

3104
03:00:32,879 --> 03:00:35,960
Speaker 2: lot harder to exist because companies are just trying to

3105
03:00:36,600 --> 03:00:41,600
Speaker 2: replace quality work with absolute like slop trash yeah, But really,

3106
03:00:41,720 --> 03:00:44,520
Speaker 2: what this is about, and the primary focus of most

3107
03:00:44,560 --> 03:00:49,120
Speaker 2: of these state level laws regulating AI is the housing market.

3108
03:00:49,520 --> 03:00:49,640
Speaker 4: Right.

3109
03:00:50,040 --> 03:00:53,000
Speaker 2: There's a good article in Politico about this, written by

3110
03:00:53,080 --> 03:00:56,720
Speaker 2: Cassandra Dumay, but she notes that per a National Conference

3111
03:00:56,760 --> 03:00:59,160
Speaker 2: of State Legislatures analysis in July, there were more than

3112
03:00:59,240 --> 03:01:02,600
Speaker 2: forty pennings across the United States related to just AI

3113
03:01:02,800 --> 03:01:06,320
Speaker 2: in the housing sector. And most of these bills are

3114
03:01:06,520 --> 03:01:10,960
Speaker 2: attempting to stop landlords from using different AI programs to

3115
03:01:11,040 --> 03:01:14,880
Speaker 2: coordinate pricing. Basically, there are a couple of different programs,

3116
03:01:14,920 --> 03:01:17,480
Speaker 2: the most prominent which is called Real Page, and what

3117
03:01:17,600 --> 03:01:20,960
Speaker 2: they do is landlords join these programs and they share

3118
03:01:21,000 --> 03:01:27,000
Speaker 2: information on like what their different properties cost, and then

3119
03:01:27,040 --> 03:01:31,439
Speaker 2: the AI knows what everybody is charging and can suggest

3120
03:01:32,320 --> 03:01:34,080
Speaker 2: that they charge higher prices.

3121
03:01:34,520 --> 03:01:35,360
Speaker 6: Right now.

3122
03:01:36,120 --> 03:01:38,040
Speaker 8: The way that this is supposed to work is that you,

3123
03:01:38,200 --> 03:01:41,720
Speaker 8: as a landlord, look out at what's publicly available about

3124
03:01:41,720 --> 03:01:43,800
Speaker 8: the prices of your competitors and look at like what

3125
03:01:44,000 --> 03:01:46,400
Speaker 8: your customers are currently willing to bear, and then try

3126
03:01:46,440 --> 03:01:49,480
Speaker 8: to set your prices and you know future price increases

3127
03:01:49,520 --> 03:01:52,560
Speaker 8: based on that. What Real Page is doing is a

3128
03:01:52,680 --> 03:01:56,240
Speaker 8: legal collusion, right, This is price fixing it's just the

3129
03:01:56,480 --> 03:02:00,840
Speaker 8: AI is doing the actual active price fixing. The landlords

3130
03:02:00,879 --> 03:02:03,640
Speaker 8: are just sharing their data and paying a fee to

3131
03:02:03,760 --> 03:02:06,480
Speaker 8: the service. And so a bunch of states have tried

3132
03:02:06,520 --> 03:02:09,680
Speaker 8: to stop this because this objectively makes the housing crisis worse.

3133
03:02:09,720 --> 03:02:11,320
Speaker 8: I know there's some annoying assholes who come out and

3134
03:02:11,320 --> 03:02:13,320
Speaker 8: be like, you shouldn't talk about anything but in increasing

3135
03:02:13,360 --> 03:02:16,840
Speaker 8: the supply of housing, and like that that's idiot shit, Yes,

3136
03:02:16,879 --> 03:02:18,280
Speaker 8: we need to increase the supply of housing.

3137
03:02:18,720 --> 03:02:20,440
Speaker 6: This objectively hurts people.

3138
03:02:20,920 --> 03:02:24,920
Speaker 2: These programs subjectively increase the price of print. They do damage.

3139
03:02:25,360 --> 03:02:28,720
Speaker 2: We should be mitigating or making it impossible for businesses

3140
03:02:28,840 --> 03:02:31,320
Speaker 2: like this to exist. Anyone who disagrees is just being

3141
03:02:31,360 --> 03:02:33,680
Speaker 2: a dummy. New York passed a law in October that

3142
03:02:33,760 --> 03:02:36,720
Speaker 2: banned the use of AI algorithms to allow landlords to

3143
03:02:36,920 --> 03:02:39,960
Speaker 2: do price fixing. There's a similar bill of the Massachusetts

3144
03:02:40,040 --> 03:02:43,240
Speaker 2: legislation that's making its way forward right now. And this

3145
03:02:43,520 --> 03:02:46,880
Speaker 2: is fundamentally what a lot of the opposition to like

3146
03:02:47,080 --> 03:02:51,800
Speaker 2: state level AI regulation is about. Is that the landlords

3147
03:02:52,160 --> 03:02:54,840
Speaker 2: basically think that this is a great way to make

3148
03:02:54,840 --> 03:02:57,040
Speaker 2: a shitload of money, and tech companies like and we

3149
03:02:57,120 --> 03:02:58,840
Speaker 2: can continue. We got to make a shitload of money

3150
03:02:59,080 --> 03:03:02,480
Speaker 2: selling them the tool to do this, and states are

3151
03:03:02,920 --> 03:03:06,120
Speaker 2: trying to push back on this, and like that's fundamentally

3152
03:03:06,200 --> 03:03:09,039
Speaker 2: what a lot of the impetus buying this executive order

3153
03:03:09,240 --> 03:03:12,680
Speaker 2: is is an attempt to stop people from making this

3154
03:03:12,840 --> 03:03:16,120
Speaker 2: even more harmful. There is some like in this that

3155
03:03:16,200 --> 03:03:19,760
Speaker 2: political article they quote from Kevin Donnelly, who's the executive

3156
03:03:19,800 --> 03:03:23,040
Speaker 2: director of the Real Estate Technology and Transformation Center, and

3157
03:03:23,160 --> 03:03:26,480
Speaker 2: he talks about like, well, actually, we're currently using AI

3158
03:03:26,680 --> 03:03:30,120
Speaker 2: to identify buildable lots and promote sustainable constructions so that

3159
03:03:30,280 --> 03:03:32,560
Speaker 2: we can actually like reduce some of the cost of housing.

3160
03:03:32,879 --> 03:03:35,440
Speaker 2: And all of these bills, could you know, undermine our

3161
03:03:35,520 --> 03:03:39,360
Speaker 2: ability to impress people's Like yeah, it's just fucking go

3162
03:03:39,640 --> 03:03:43,000
Speaker 2: like literally jump off a bridge, man, Fuck you. Yeah, no,

3163
03:03:43,480 --> 03:03:45,280
Speaker 2: we know that's not how it works. We have data

3164
03:03:45,400 --> 03:03:47,840
Speaker 2: on this, yo, This isn't theoretical.

3165
03:03:48,200 --> 03:03:48,400
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3166
03:03:48,720 --> 03:03:52,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. Anytime a landlord, anytime a landlord says anything or

3167
03:03:52,879 --> 03:03:56,640
Speaker 3: to real estate developer that says anything that suggests the

3168
03:03:56,720 --> 03:03:58,760
Speaker 3: thing they want to do is lower rent, they are

3169
03:03:58,920 --> 03:04:02,560
Speaker 3: lying and tell because they don't fucking lower rents unless

3170
03:04:02,800 --> 03:04:04,960
Speaker 3: like a global pandemic happens.

3171
03:04:05,240 --> 03:04:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that's a how any of this works, and

3172
03:04:09,080 --> 03:04:12,600
Speaker 2: this has been controversial. Trump, before putting out the EO,

3173
03:04:12,959 --> 03:04:16,280
Speaker 2: tried to encourage the passage of a bill through Congress

3174
03:04:16,320 --> 03:04:18,199
Speaker 2: that would have done the same thing as the EO

3175
03:04:18,800 --> 03:04:20,600
Speaker 2: right and would have actually had like more force of

3176
03:04:20,680 --> 03:04:22,960
Speaker 2: law behind it, basically making it illegal for states to

3177
03:04:23,040 --> 03:04:27,120
Speaker 2: have their own laws regulating AI. That didn't pass because

3178
03:04:27,240 --> 03:04:30,560
Speaker 2: even Republicans don't really like that idea. For one thing,

3179
03:04:31,000 --> 03:04:33,920
Speaker 2: states rights is still supposed to be a pretty big.

3180
03:04:33,840 --> 03:04:34,720
Speaker 3: Part of the party.

3181
03:04:35,720 --> 03:04:37,600
Speaker 2: But for another thing, there's like a lot of things

3182
03:04:37,680 --> 03:04:40,800
Speaker 2: that conservatives are really unhappy with in terms of AI.

3183
03:04:40,959 --> 03:04:44,840
Speaker 2: For example, it keeps exposing children to pornography and other

3184
03:04:45,040 --> 03:04:46,800
Speaker 2: things that kids shouldn't be exposed to.

3185
03:04:47,560 --> 03:04:48,560
Speaker 6: For another thing, there's a lot of.

3186
03:04:48,560 --> 03:04:51,200
Speaker 2: American jobs that are going to be lost as a

3187
03:04:51,240 --> 03:04:54,560
Speaker 2: result of or potentially could be lost as a result

3188
03:04:54,680 --> 03:04:58,120
Speaker 2: of the AI slop automation of a bunch of industries.

3189
03:04:58,200 --> 03:05:01,640
Speaker 2: And so there's there's even significant amount of resistance among

3190
03:05:01,720 --> 03:05:04,320
Speaker 2: Republicans this, which is why the bill didn't pass right,

3191
03:05:04,800 --> 03:05:08,240
Speaker 2: and Trump, when he announced this EO basically sat down

3192
03:05:08,360 --> 03:05:10,720
Speaker 2: with like a chunk of the conservatives who are more

3193
03:05:10,760 --> 03:05:14,360
Speaker 2: critical of this and I think basically bullied them into

3194
03:05:14,480 --> 03:05:17,520
Speaker 2: getting on board and saying no, he promised us this

3195
03:05:17,680 --> 03:05:22,320
Speaker 2: won't restrict state levels to like improve safety for children. Right,

3196
03:05:23,120 --> 03:05:26,840
Speaker 2: there's absolutely like no guarantee of that, Like you just

3197
03:05:26,959 --> 03:05:30,160
Speaker 2: have David Sacks. It was Trump's top AI advisor saying no, no,

3198
03:05:30,680 --> 03:05:32,400
Speaker 2: none of this is about trying to stop state laws

3199
03:05:32,440 --> 03:05:34,920
Speaker 2: to make kids savor. It's just trying to stop state

3200
03:05:35,000 --> 03:05:38,320
Speaker 2: laws that will make rent less expensive. Yeah, there's Marjorie

3201
03:05:38,320 --> 03:05:41,000
Speaker 2: Taylor Green's come out against this. She's basically said that,

3202
03:05:41,240 --> 03:05:43,960
Speaker 2: you know, this is a violation of states. Right, it's bullshit.

3203
03:05:44,000 --> 03:05:46,760
Speaker 2: Steve Bannon is in the same place. He had a

3204
03:05:46,800 --> 03:05:48,520
Speaker 2: good quote I found in an article by The Hill.

3205
03:05:48,879 --> 03:05:51,800
Speaker 2: After two humiliating face plants on a must pass legislation,

3206
03:05:52,000 --> 03:05:55,039
Speaker 2: Now we attempt an entirely unenforceable EO tech bros doing

3207
03:05:55,120 --> 03:05:57,520
Speaker 2: utmost to turn Potus magabase away from him while they

3208
03:05:57,560 --> 03:06:02,040
Speaker 2: line their pockets, which is essentially accurate. Yeah, he's wrong,

3209
03:06:04,160 --> 03:06:07,640
Speaker 2: ain't wrong about that. So all this is like pretty

3210
03:06:07,680 --> 03:06:11,480
Speaker 2: annoying and fucked up. We'll see what actually becomes of this.

3211
03:06:11,760 --> 03:06:14,560
Speaker 2: I tend to agree with Bannon that it's pretty much unenforceable,

3212
03:06:15,040 --> 03:06:17,720
Speaker 2: like the lawsuit, the court battles that will come from

3213
03:06:17,760 --> 03:06:21,280
Speaker 2: this is just going to be expensive and time consuming.

3214
03:06:21,360 --> 03:06:24,080
Speaker 2: But I actually don't think this is going to work

3215
03:06:24,120 --> 03:06:26,600
Speaker 2: the way they want. This is this is Trump making

3216
03:06:26,640 --> 03:06:28,400
Speaker 2: it very clear that he has bought and paid for

3217
03:06:28,560 --> 03:06:31,040
Speaker 2: by the tax end, that he understands that he is

3218
03:06:31,160 --> 03:06:33,680
Speaker 2: hanging on by a thread in terms of popularity. One

3219
03:06:33,720 --> 03:06:36,200
Speaker 2: of the only things stopping it from getting stopping the

3220
03:06:36,240 --> 03:06:39,880
Speaker 2: situation from getting worse is that AI spending on data

3221
03:06:39,959 --> 03:06:42,760
Speaker 2: centers and ship is propping up the image of the economy. Right,

3222
03:06:42,840 --> 03:06:44,039
Speaker 2: that's what this is all about.

3223
03:06:44,440 --> 03:06:46,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this and this is something where he can

3224
03:06:46,280 --> 03:06:49,120
Speaker 3: simultaneously shore up is tech based and shore up his

3225
03:06:49,240 --> 03:06:49,840
Speaker 3: landlord base.

3226
03:06:50,080 --> 03:06:53,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, which are like, yeah, it's great, two kinds of

3227
03:06:53,800 --> 03:06:55,160
Speaker 8: guys to like Donald Trump.

3228
03:06:55,680 --> 03:06:59,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess there's an end here where I could.

3229
03:06:59,440 --> 03:07:01,600
Speaker 2: I wanted to make a note about something also related

3230
03:07:01,640 --> 03:07:04,400
Speaker 2: to AI, which is that there's an incredibly stupid article

3231
03:07:04,600 --> 03:07:08,440
Speaker 2: in Vox that came out this week. Case like literally

3232
03:07:08,480 --> 03:07:11,040
Speaker 2: the title is like, America, you've made it very clear

3233
03:07:11,120 --> 03:07:13,440
Speaker 2: that you hate AI, But what if it's the only

3234
03:07:13,520 --> 03:07:15,680
Speaker 2: way to restart the idea machine?

3235
03:07:16,360 --> 03:07:16,520
Speaker 4: Right?

3236
03:07:17,120 --> 03:07:20,520
Speaker 2: And this dipshit. Columnist's argument is that.

3237
03:07:20,720 --> 03:07:25,000
Speaker 8: Like, well, we're we're not running out of ideas and AI,

3238
03:07:25,280 --> 03:07:27,600
Speaker 8: like human beings can't come up with ideas enough to

3239
03:07:27,640 --> 03:07:30,120
Speaker 8: create growth at the level that the economy needs to

3240
03:07:30,200 --> 03:07:34,640
Speaker 8: be growing, and in order to take humanity into the future, really,

3241
03:07:34,760 --> 03:07:37,199
Speaker 8: AI is the only way to generate.

3242
03:07:36,920 --> 03:07:37,960
Speaker 6: More new ideas.

3243
03:07:38,520 --> 03:07:39,840
Speaker 2: And I wanted to look at, like, what is this

3244
03:07:40,000 --> 03:07:43,440
Speaker 2: based off of? And I think I figured out what,

3245
03:07:43,840 --> 03:07:46,960
Speaker 2: like the fundamental source of all of this shit is,

3246
03:07:47,560 --> 03:07:51,600
Speaker 2: which is Back in twenty seventeen, there was a research

3247
03:07:51,720 --> 03:07:55,120
Speaker 2: paper put out by the National Bureau of Economic Research

3248
03:07:55,160 --> 03:07:59,000
Speaker 2: by Nicholas Bloom, Charles Jones, John Van Reenan, and Michael Webb.

3249
03:07:59,600 --> 03:08:03,040
Speaker 2: The kind summary of that article reads as follows. In

3250
03:08:03,120 --> 03:08:05,960
Speaker 2: many growth models, economic growth arises from people creating ideas,

3251
03:08:06,040 --> 03:08:07,720
Speaker 2: and then the long run growth rate is the product

3252
03:08:07,720 --> 03:08:09,800
Speaker 2: of two terms, the effective number of researchers and their

3253
03:08:09,840 --> 03:08:12,560
Speaker 2: research productivity. We present a wide range of evidence for

3254
03:08:12,640 --> 03:08:15,160
Speaker 2: various industries, products, and firms showing that research effort is

3255
03:08:15,240 --> 03:08:19,760
Speaker 2: rising substantially while research productivity is declining sharply. Right, So basically,

3256
03:08:20,040 --> 03:08:22,240
Speaker 2: we're we have more people doing research and we're spending

3257
03:08:22,240 --> 03:08:25,680
Speaker 2: more money on research, but that research is translating into

3258
03:08:26,000 --> 03:08:29,600
Speaker 2: economic gains at a lower level than ever before, right

3259
03:08:30,280 --> 03:08:31,680
Speaker 2: to the point where we're not going to be able

3260
03:08:31,680 --> 03:08:33,840
Speaker 2: to continue to make economic gains like we used to

3261
03:08:33,920 --> 03:08:37,840
Speaker 2: be unless something changes. And if you're kind of paying

3262
03:08:37,879 --> 03:08:40,320
Speaker 2: attention to this, you might notice that that study, which

3263
03:08:40,360 --> 03:08:42,400
Speaker 2: is the underpinning of that Vox article and all of

3264
03:08:42,400 --> 03:08:44,920
Speaker 2: these claims that we need AI for ideas, really it

3265
03:08:44,959 --> 03:08:47,240
Speaker 2: is not actually making an argument that people aren't having

3266
03:08:47,320 --> 03:08:50,680
Speaker 2: more ideas. It's making an argument that it is harder

3267
03:08:50,760 --> 03:08:55,360
Speaker 2: to profit from ideas than it used to be right now.

3268
03:08:55,720 --> 03:08:58,720
Speaker 2: That is fundamentally different from people not having ideas. For

3269
03:08:58,800 --> 03:09:02,000
Speaker 2: one thing, it's reduce using an idea to something that

3270
03:09:02,200 --> 03:09:05,720
Speaker 2: delivers a return for venture capitalists. Yeah right, that's all

3271
03:09:05,800 --> 03:09:08,400
Speaker 2: an idea is in. This is something that makes money,

3272
03:09:08,720 --> 03:09:11,440
Speaker 2: and a lot of great ideas like the post office,

3273
03:09:11,800 --> 03:09:14,880
Speaker 2: don't generate a direct profit. And obviously it's a net

3274
03:09:14,920 --> 03:09:16,920
Speaker 2: benefit to the economy that we have a post office,

3275
03:09:16,920 --> 03:09:19,520
Speaker 2: but the post office runs at a loss, right, which

3276
03:09:19,560 --> 03:09:22,600
Speaker 2: is why you have state funding for certain things, because

3277
03:09:22,600 --> 03:09:24,879
Speaker 2: they're just not going to be the kind of ideas

3278
03:09:24,959 --> 03:09:27,760
Speaker 2: that like a bunch of Silicon Valley investors want to

3279
03:09:27,800 --> 03:09:31,120
Speaker 2: throw money into right now. The other part of the

3280
03:09:31,240 --> 03:09:33,880
Speaker 2: issue here is just a very practical one, which is

3281
03:09:33,920 --> 03:09:36,560
Speaker 2: that a lot of the ideas, the great ideas last

3282
03:09:36,600 --> 03:09:40,520
Speaker 2: century that were like most correlated with massive gains and productivity,

3283
03:09:40,600 --> 03:09:43,600
Speaker 2: stuff like the introduction of vaccines on a wide scale,

3284
03:09:43,840 --> 03:09:44,959
Speaker 2: indoor plumbing.

3285
03:09:44,720 --> 03:09:47,520
Speaker 6: And electricity on a wide scale phones.

3286
03:09:48,320 --> 03:09:51,800
Speaker 8: There's not ideas like that that are like that big

3287
03:09:51,920 --> 03:09:55,800
Speaker 8: and that much of a game changer left, right, the

3288
03:09:55,879 --> 03:09:57,840
Speaker 8: low hanging fruit has been It's the.

3289
03:09:57,879 --> 03:10:01,160
Speaker 2: Low hanging fruit has been picked. There's not another the

3290
03:10:01,320 --> 03:10:04,160
Speaker 2: telephone waiting out there. We already did that. It was

3291
03:10:04,200 --> 03:10:07,360
Speaker 2: the smartphone. There's not another indoor plumbing, right. There's not

3292
03:10:07,440 --> 03:10:09,480
Speaker 2: something that's going to be as much of a sea

3293
03:10:09,600 --> 03:10:11,840
Speaker 2: change for the economy and for the quality of human

3294
03:10:11,879 --> 03:10:14,440
Speaker 2: life as those ideas, because those were really big things.

3295
03:10:15,600 --> 03:10:17,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like like maybe maybe you could put us something

3296
03:10:17,560 --> 03:10:20,240
Speaker 3: like actually cleaning the air that we breathe.

3297
03:10:20,240 --> 03:10:23,760
Speaker 8: Yes, but again that's not profitable in a direct way, no, right,

3298
03:10:23,840 --> 03:10:26,280
Speaker 8: like you, Yeah, that's an idea that would have a

3299
03:10:26,879 --> 03:10:29,920
Speaker 8: change that big, but there's not a profit incentive for it.

3300
03:10:30,080 --> 03:10:30,160
Speaker 3: Right.

3301
03:10:30,280 --> 03:10:31,520
Speaker 6: We privatize the air of.

3302
03:10:31,640 --> 03:10:38,039
Speaker 2: It, right, fucking air? Yeah, and there's a lot I again,

3303
03:10:38,080 --> 03:10:41,240
Speaker 2: I find this, this whole discussion pattern, like it's an

3304
03:10:41,280 --> 03:10:43,440
Speaker 2: example of the fact that like people like this fucking

3305
03:10:43,520 --> 03:10:45,640
Speaker 2: vox article who I don't feel like deserves to be

3306
03:10:45,760 --> 03:10:48,600
Speaker 2: named to this, have been using chat GPT so much

3307
03:10:48,640 --> 03:10:51,120
Speaker 2: that they're no longer thinking. They're not really sentient in

3308
03:10:51,200 --> 03:10:54,039
Speaker 2: a meaningful way. Right, Like when you when you write

3309
03:10:54,120 --> 03:10:57,000
Speaker 2: something like that, it's because your brain has been completely

3310
03:10:57,120 --> 03:11:00,640
Speaker 2: fucking cooked. I did find a good article, ironically, from

3311
03:11:00,680 --> 03:11:05,320
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen from Vox EU that is titled Ideas aren't

3312
03:11:05,360 --> 03:11:07,680
Speaker 2: running out, but they are getting more expensive to find,

3313
03:11:07,760 --> 03:11:09,240
Speaker 2: which is making a lot of the claims that like

3314
03:11:09,360 --> 03:11:11,600
Speaker 2: I've made, which is that or that I've been bringing

3315
03:11:11,680 --> 03:11:13,600
Speaker 2: up so far in this which is that it's not

3316
03:11:13,720 --> 03:11:15,959
Speaker 2: that there's a lack of ideas, that it costs more

3317
03:11:16,040 --> 03:11:19,359
Speaker 2: money to do stuff like that now, like the costs

3318
03:11:20,000 --> 03:11:23,400
Speaker 2: because everything's so much more complex. The big ideas we're

3319
03:11:23,440 --> 03:11:25,960
Speaker 2: looking at, artist simple is indoor plumbing. They require a

3320
03:11:26,000 --> 03:11:28,320
Speaker 2: lot more computing power, they require a lot more people

3321
03:11:28,440 --> 03:11:31,840
Speaker 2: working on them, right, Like we've plucked the low hanging fruit,

3322
03:11:32,320 --> 03:11:34,880
Speaker 2: and it ends with a paragraph I find kind of

3323
03:11:34,920 --> 03:11:37,560
Speaker 2: valuable here, returning to the oil metaphor, we are digging

3324
03:11:37,600 --> 03:11:39,600
Speaker 2: deeper into a trickier part of the rock. Of course,

3325
03:11:39,640 --> 03:11:41,560
Speaker 2: we could be wrong, and humanity may have just been

3326
03:11:41,600 --> 03:11:44,280
Speaker 2: shipping away to particularly hard point that will soon give way,

3327
03:11:44,560 --> 03:11:46,880
Speaker 2: creating decades of cheap ideas. This is the hope of

3328
03:11:46,879 --> 03:11:50,000
Speaker 2: those who emphasize the revolutionary power of artificial intelligence and

3329
03:11:50,080 --> 03:11:53,360
Speaker 2: the singularity and accumulation of technology that triggers runaway growth

3330
03:11:53,360 --> 03:11:55,480
Speaker 2: at some point in the future. Although we all enjoy

3331
03:11:55,560 --> 03:11:58,080
Speaker 2: science fiction, history books are usually a safer guide to

3332
03:11:58,120 --> 03:12:00,840
Speaker 2: the future. In this case, history suggests that large increases

3333
03:12:00,879 --> 03:12:03,800
Speaker 2: in research effort are need to offset its declining productivity.

3334
03:12:04,200 --> 03:12:05,760
Speaker 6: And again, if you want to have.

3335
03:12:05,920 --> 03:12:08,200
Speaker 2: The big ideas and the star Trek feature that all

3336
03:12:08,200 --> 03:12:10,920
Speaker 2: of these billionaires like Elon Musk pretend they want, what

3337
03:12:11,080 --> 03:12:12,760
Speaker 2: you actually have to do is be willing to put

3338
03:12:12,840 --> 03:12:16,920
Speaker 2: a lot of money into research and development without any

3339
03:12:17,080 --> 03:12:20,400
Speaker 2: promise of a profit. Your motivation can't be well, now,

3340
03:12:20,440 --> 03:12:22,000
Speaker 2: we have to get a two hundred percent rate of

3341
03:12:22,080 --> 03:12:24,760
Speaker 2: return in our investments. Right, it has to be well.

3342
03:12:24,800 --> 03:12:28,920
Speaker 2: This would improve people's lives and make life more sustainable. Right,

3343
03:12:29,360 --> 03:12:31,760
Speaker 2: like finding solutions to a lot of problems with climate

3344
03:12:31,800 --> 03:12:34,480
Speaker 2: and cleaning the air, like dealing with like lack of

3345
03:12:34,560 --> 03:12:37,400
Speaker 2: access to clean water, lack of access to basic basic

3346
03:12:37,520 --> 03:12:40,560
Speaker 2: medical care. These are not things where doing them means

3347
03:12:40,600 --> 03:12:43,600
Speaker 2: that your company gets an immediate profit and evaluation in

3348
03:12:43,640 --> 03:12:45,920
Speaker 2: the tens of billions of dollars. Right, That's just not

3349
03:12:46,080 --> 03:12:50,320
Speaker 2: the way providing life saving aid to people works. But

3350
03:12:50,760 --> 03:12:54,880
Speaker 2: the net value to the global economy would be massive if,

3351
03:12:54,959 --> 03:12:58,120
Speaker 2: for example, kids weren't going without food and access to

3352
03:12:58,200 --> 03:13:01,640
Speaker 2: clean water, and had better access to education, and thus

3353
03:13:01,680 --> 03:13:05,120
Speaker 2: we're able to go into fields where they become researchers

3354
03:13:05,200 --> 03:13:08,960
Speaker 2: and generate ideas that eventually turn into profit. Right, Like,

3355
03:13:09,520 --> 03:13:12,760
Speaker 2: these AI fucks aren't talking about ideas, They're talking about

3356
03:13:12,840 --> 03:13:15,480
Speaker 2: cracking the human mind, Right, that's what they want to do.

3357
03:13:15,920 --> 03:13:18,360
Speaker 3: It's a good way to Yeah, yeah, I think that

3358
03:13:18,600 --> 03:13:20,960
Speaker 3: there's another thing we're saying here too. On there's a different,

3359
03:13:21,040 --> 03:13:25,840
Speaker 3: greater argument about this where he makes an argument that

3360
03:13:25,879 --> 03:13:28,840
Speaker 3: I think is also very compelling that part of the

3361
03:13:29,440 --> 03:13:33,080
Speaker 3: decline in the rate of technological change has been the

3362
03:13:33,240 --> 03:13:35,320
Speaker 3: extent to which everyone who was trying to do this

3363
03:13:35,400 --> 03:13:38,000
Speaker 3: stuff is just increasingly dealing with more and more layers

3364
03:13:38,040 --> 03:13:40,400
Speaker 3: of bureaucracy instead of actually doing the thing they're trying

3365
03:13:40,440 --> 03:13:42,560
Speaker 3: to do. And then you know, this is a huge

3366
03:13:42,560 --> 03:13:44,560
Speaker 3: problem in academia where it's like, okay, so you have

3367
03:13:44,760 --> 03:13:47,440
Speaker 3: you know, you're teaching in academia, but you're also spending

3368
03:13:47,600 --> 03:13:51,280
Speaker 3: like a quarter of your time trying to get another job.

3369
03:13:51,680 --> 03:13:54,680
Speaker 3: You're spending another quarter of your time dealing with all

3370
03:13:54,760 --> 03:13:58,760
Speaker 3: of the unhinged whatever, like accounting bullshit that your fucking

3371
03:13:58,800 --> 03:14:01,960
Speaker 3: supervisors have, like like like university management has like put

3372
03:14:02,080 --> 03:14:03,520
Speaker 3: upon you. And this is and this is something that's

3373
03:14:03,520 --> 03:14:06,200
Speaker 3: also true for government researchers, where there's just like this,

3374
03:14:06,440 --> 03:14:08,360
Speaker 3: you know, there's been this incredible increase in sort of

3375
03:14:08,360 --> 03:14:10,440
Speaker 3: the amount of bureaucracy they have to jump through it

3376
03:14:11,040 --> 03:14:13,680
Speaker 3: like largely because of the right and because of all

3377
03:14:13,720 --> 03:14:16,039
Speaker 3: of the like weird shit they do, where like they

3378
03:14:16,080 --> 03:14:18,040
Speaker 3: hate government fundings, so like ah, everyone has to like

3379
03:14:18,640 --> 03:14:21,840
Speaker 3: justify their funding literally every ten seconds. And I think,

3380
03:14:21,840 --> 03:14:23,720
Speaker 3: I think, like that's that's one of the other angles

3381
03:14:23,760 --> 03:14:25,240
Speaker 3: of this, and it's something that's only gonna get worse

3382
03:14:25,280 --> 03:14:28,120
Speaker 3: because this administration is just fucking annihilating the entire basis

3383
03:14:28,160 --> 03:14:31,320
Speaker 3: of American science. Yeah, they're killing it. The damage that

3384
03:14:31,360 --> 03:14:33,320
Speaker 3: they've done to the pipeline of people that will produce

3385
03:14:33,360 --> 03:14:36,320
Speaker 3: these researchers, right with with ways that all suddenly like

3386
03:14:36,360 --> 03:14:39,200
Speaker 3: American science post docs. Just there's no money for it.

3387
03:14:39,280 --> 03:14:42,000
Speaker 3: There's no money for grad students. They're killing all of

3388
03:14:42,080 --> 03:14:45,160
Speaker 3: the pathways that would do this, and then they're going, oh,

3389
03:14:45,240 --> 03:14:49,520
Speaker 3: the only solution is the fucking tech boondoggle we've created

3390
03:14:49,600 --> 03:14:53,040
Speaker 3: to the problems that we created by just annihilating the

3391
03:14:53,120 --> 03:14:54,119
Speaker 3: capacity to do science.

3392
03:14:54,879 --> 03:14:55,160
Speaker 1: M h.

3393
03:14:55,560 --> 03:14:55,959
Speaker 6: It sucks.

3394
03:14:56,000 --> 03:14:56,440
Speaker 3: I hate them.

3395
03:14:57,760 --> 03:14:59,240
Speaker 6: If you want to email list you can do so.

3396
03:14:59,520 --> 03:15:02,760
Speaker 6: It is cool zwn tips at proton dot me. If

3397
03:15:02,800 --> 03:15:04,240
Speaker 6: you want it to be encrypted, you should use a

3398
03:15:04,280 --> 03:15:06,360
Speaker 6: proton matadress as well. They're free.

3399
03:15:07,920 --> 03:15:14,840
Speaker 8: All right, guys, I think that's that's the podcast listeners, haters, lovers.

3400
03:15:15,080 --> 03:15:16,760
Speaker 3: It's our last e D of the year.

3401
03:15:17,879 --> 03:15:18,920
Speaker 6: It's our last D.

3402
03:15:19,080 --> 03:15:19,480
Speaker 3: Of the year.

3403
03:15:19,720 --> 03:15:21,440
Speaker 6: Well, I don't know. We'll see if those pills come in,

3404
03:15:21,600 --> 03:15:25,640
Speaker 6: but yeah, but I hate you.

3405
03:15:26,240 --> 03:15:30,280
Speaker 8: Happy holidays, Holidays, everybody, put a trans girl on your couch.

3406
03:15:30,600 --> 03:15:33,320
Speaker 1: Put a trans girl on your couch, love it?

3407
03:15:33,680 --> 03:15:35,480
Speaker 6: Or a bed I mean yeah, if you.

3408
03:15:38,520 --> 03:15:42,720
Speaker 8: Yeahble mattress one of those like chairs that leans back

3409
03:15:42,800 --> 03:15:45,880
Speaker 8: to where it's like basically flat. Yeah, not a lazy

3410
03:15:46,480 --> 03:15:49,280
Speaker 8: in sure, a lot of options in neutral lazy each year.

3411
03:15:49,520 --> 03:15:51,840
Speaker 6: Yeah. An inflatable mattress why not? Yeah?

3412
03:15:51,840 --> 03:15:52,120
Speaker 3: Why not?

3413
03:15:52,920 --> 03:15:57,039
Speaker 6: Water bed? A water bed is strong enough. Because they

3414
03:15:57,080 --> 03:16:01,240
Speaker 6: are heavy, you're not allowed.

3415
03:16:01,000 --> 03:16:01,440
Speaker 4: To have them.

3416
03:16:01,480 --> 03:16:05,240
Speaker 1: But yes, Anyways, we reported the news.

3417
03:16:05,560 --> 03:16:07,360
Speaker 6: Arguably, we reported the news.

3418
03:16:12,320 --> 03:16:15,440
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3419
03:16:15,560 --> 03:16:17,440
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3420
03:16:18,200 --> 03:16:20,680
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3421
03:16:20,879 --> 03:16:23,920
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3422
03:16:24,040 --> 03:16:27,520
Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3423
03:16:27,680 --> 03:16:29,599
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

3424
03:16:29,360 --> 03:16:30,480
Speaker 3: You listen to podcasts.

3425
03:16:31,000 --> 03:16:32,880
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It Could Happen here,

3426
03:16:32,959 --> 03:16:35,879
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.