WEBVTT - What to Do About Your Office Crush 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:07.039 From office crushes to dating your boss to secret affairs. 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.440 Is it ever okay to mix love and work? This week, 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:15.400 we're talking about all kinds of office romance. This is 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:32.559 game Plan. Hi. I'm Francesco Leavie. Rebecca Greenfield is on 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.239 vacation this week, but I'm very pleased that we have 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:38.440 with us as a guest host, Jenny Kaplan, who is 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:42.639 also co host of Bloomberg's Material World podcast. Jenny, thank 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.000 you for coming in and helping out. I'm very excited 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:47.879 to be here, especially to talk about this hot topic. 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:52.239 Oh it's so hot office romance. Let's get right into it. 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.600 My first question is why why do they even happen? 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:58.920 Isn't work a place that you go to get work done. 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:01.760 What are people doing getting all sexy with each other? 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.920 It's true, and especially because everyone sort of agrees that 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:08.720 this is a bad idea, but you know, I think 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:11.280 it really starts with the fact that we just spend 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.080 so much of our lives at work. I mean, when 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.240 you're not sleeping most of the time you're at the office. Yeah, 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.880 I'm playing dumb, but I actually think that it's reasonably 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.839 obvious why these things do happen. When they happen. Work 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.440 is kind of a breeding ground, I think for for 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.240 a romance. You're around these people all the time that 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:33.679 you work with. It's a it's sort of a safe 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:38.280 place to experiment with whether you're compatible with somebody. Like 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:40.760 in normal life, if you like somebody, you have to 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:42.880 contrive a bunch of reasons to be around them to 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:45.200 see if you actually really get along and are attracted 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.440 to each other and want a date. The office is 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:49.920 a structure that's all set up for you to do that. 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:51.760 Every day. You can, you can chat, you can have 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.480 your little office inside jokes, and you can kind of 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:58.200 cultivate a crush on somebody over a long period of 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:02.240 time without anything being inappropriate about it. It's also sort 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.200 of a filter. You know that these people likely aren't 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:09.399 serial killers. You see them at the office, you probably 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.280 know something about their background, and you're not just you know, 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.200 flipping through pictures on an app. Yes, they're not just 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.359 some rando that you swept right on or left. And 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:23.000 also they're likely to have something in common with you. 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:24.799 You know, you at least work in the same field. 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:27.799 Um maybe you have similar job functions, and so that 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:32.400 that is kind of like a preset baseline level of 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:35.880 compatibility that you know you have. So that's all the 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.960 reasons why it can happen, um, and why it does 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:41.960 seem to happen so often. In fact, the stats on 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:46.079 this are pretty clear. Um. There was a survey from 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.880 the Society of Human Resource Management that said one in 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.040 four people have had an office romance just about So 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.960 it happens, but there's a lot of ways it can 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.560 go wrong, right, I Mean, the conventional wisdom is, though 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.000 it happens, it shouldn't. Yeah, and then I think we 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:05.440 should just like break down all the reasons, um, even 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:09.160 if it seems kind of obvious. So just to start with, 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:13.480 in the best case scenario, when the relationship is two 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.560 sided and everyone's happy, it can make it hard for 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.640 the people working around you. I mean, you have created 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:23.240 this sort of very different relationship, and maybe you're on 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:25.760 a team with other people who have to work and 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:29.360 sort of understand those boundaries and how they've shifted. It's 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:31.800 it's sort of unfair to them, and people are going 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:35.480 to question whether any of the achievements that you've made 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.240 are things that you've really gotten on your own merit. 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:39.960 If you get a promotion or if you get some 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.840 kind of special treatment or favoritism. And in fact, in 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:47.280 that same s h RM survey, companies who said that 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:51.360 they had a policy that forbids office romance cited that 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.280 as one of the main reasons that it could cause favoritism. 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.320 The other reasons were the potential for sexual harassment claims 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:02.520 UM and then retaliation bowl when relationships don't work out, 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:05.000 using the workplace as a place to take it out 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:08.440 on their ex partner. And even if there isn't, you know, 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:12.720 some sort of formal retaliation because of a power dynamic. 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:17.159 There's definitely emotional risk here. I mean, you're working with 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.159 these people all the time, assuming you want to keep 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.640 your job. If the relationship goes south, you're going to 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:27.240 be stuck working with someone who you probably have pretty 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.440 mixed and potentially sad feelings about. Yeah, I mean, it's 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:33.800 it sounds awful. It's just like high school. You have 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:36.360 to show up every day and see the person that 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.000 you broke up with. Doesn't matter if you unfollow them 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.840 on Facebook and Twitter. There they are every day and 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:44.720 you have to figure out a way to contain your 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.680 feelings and keep working. So from the company perspective, how 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.320 do they handle this. Yeah, So I talked to Edward 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.560 Yost from the Society Human Resource Management, the authority on 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.120 all things HR, and I asked him why so few 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:00.200 companies have a policy on this, because according to that survey, 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:02.440 youer than half actually even have a policy. And here's 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.240 what he said. It's always a safer place to go 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:10.080 to have no policy than to have one in place 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.440 that you don't adhere to. Uh. And that I mean 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.080 that means that if you have the policy in place, 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.840 you must be willing to part with your very best 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:22.039 employee if they violate that policy. If that's what the 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:25.040 policy says, that it's a zero tolerance you will not 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.280 date one of your subordinates and you find out that 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:32.800 they are, you must be willing to do that. The 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.800 other really interesting thing we talked about was in some 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.640 cases where companies do have a policy around office romance, 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:42.440 they require these things called love contracts, which I'll let 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:47.040 him explain. Essentially, it's a it's a contract or or 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:51.440 a document that acknowledges from both parties that there is 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:56.760 a consensual relationship, that there's there are no undo pressures 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.480 being put on one employee or the other to become 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:04.080 involved this relationship, and that if something weren't to go 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.880 wrong with the relationship, that is essentially their personal business, 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:11.760 and that they're going to keep the personal relationship out 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.039 of the office as much as possible, or the fights 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:16.720 aren't going to happen in the office. They're going to 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.400 remain professional. And another thing that he really hit on 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.440 in our conversation was how badly it can go when 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.320 the people in a relationship are in a supervisor supervisor 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:33.880 or a manager employee relationship, when there's that imbalance of power, 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:36.960 there's so much other stuff going on. It's really no 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.320 matter how genuine you're feelings for somebody might be, it's 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.640 really hard to have to do your job appropriately as 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:47.920 a boss if you've brought that element in. And even 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.680 if you start off a relationship where you have sort 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.200 of parallel positions, it can switch and someone can become 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.000 the boss. Someone can become responsible for doing things like 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:00.719 annual reviews and things like that for a partner, which 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.599 just sounds like a whole crazy god yeah or deal, 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:07.280 or you weren't working on the same project and now 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:09.640 you are, and suddenly you have all these new questions 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.360 to answer. But instead of just sitting around and scolding 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.840 people for having office romances. I think we should accept 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:20.320 that they happen, and there's got to be a way 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:22.800 to deal with it when it does, and to get 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:25.360 some help with that. I'm very excited about our guest 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:35.000 today who is an expert on all things relationships. Cheryl 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.120 Strait is a best selling author. Her books include Wild 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:42.000 and Tiny Beautiful Things. For years she wrote an advice 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:45.680 column called Deer Sugar, and now she co hosts the 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:51.080 Deer Sugars podcast with Steve Almond. Cheryl, thanks for joining us. 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.280 It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. So 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.360 you must get a fair number of questions in your 0:07:56.480 --> 0:08:00.320 long career answering relationship questions that have to do with 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.880 love at the office. Absolutely, I mean there's no We 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:05.960 spend so much time at work, whether it be an 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:10.240 office or other kind of job, that it's inevitable that 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.120 people are going to become attracted to each other. And 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.000 the sorts of letters that I get, and now in 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.400 my work with Steve on the podcast that we get, 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:23.360 they sort of fall into three categories. The letters from 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.680 people who are saying, look, I am feeling really attracted 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:29.920 to a coworker. And you know, sometimes that attraction is 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.560 between two single people. UM. Sometimes it's somebody who's married, 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:35.920 And so there's that other layer of saying, you know, 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:39.440 I'm attracted to my coworker and he or she is married, 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:41.040 and so am I? And what should we do? And 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:44.839 really somebody who's trying, I think, to resist that attraction 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.760 for a number of reasons. Um. And then there are 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.120 people who are saying, Okay, we made the leap. I 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.679 fell for somebody I work with and we had an 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.080 affair or we had a fling, or we had a 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:01.000 relationship and now it's ended or and now it's gone 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.600 in this direction that feels kind of ikey and negative 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:06.400 and what how do we How do I work with 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:10.160 somebody who is essentially a former lover? And then that 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.000 third category are the people who just really fell in 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:17.160 love and they happen to work together, sometimes in different, 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.920 very different roles where there's a power difference, which is 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:24.240 always complicated, And the big question there is, you know, 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:26.560 how do we manage this at work? Do we keep 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:29.760 it a secret? Do we do we tell everyone? And 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.040 what do we do? You know, what do we do here? 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:33.920 It is we are in love? And the fact as 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.439 we work together, so when you're facing I mean, these 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:40.400 are very different kinds of questions and dilemmas. Do you 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.960 have particular rules or guidelines that you sort of think 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:48.120 apply to office romances? I mean, how do you look 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:50.880 at those three different categories and try to advise people 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.800 on what they should do? I think it's always complicated 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.959 when we are talking about love and lust. I mean, 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:00.320 most of us realized that that area of sort of 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:04.760 human sexuality and desire and emotion, those emotional connections we 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.200 have um sometimes with people we spend a lot of 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.520 time with. We most of us know what we should do. 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.360 We most of us know that the general rule is 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:19.000 don't bring romance or sex into the office or into 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:21.800 your job, your work life. Keep those things separate. And 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.120 the reason for that very clear line is that it 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.040 gets really complicated when you don't. Most of us would 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.280 say our most important areas of our lives are our careers, 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:35.000 in our in our family or home, or romantic relationships. 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.360 And when you put the two together, it could be 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.240 really great or it could be really terrible. And in 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.199 some ways it has the potential if that relationship should 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:47.679 go bad to you ruin your your work life, at 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:51.480 least temporarily. And so the first advice I have with 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.560 anyone who's asking questions about this is, you know, really 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.520 try to avoid it. Try to keep those realms separate, 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.520 to avoid those complications. But the fact, as we are 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:04.280 human and you know, we don't live by guidelines, most 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.640 of us will cross many clear lines in the course 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.679 of our lives, especially our love lives. And so the 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:14.079 biggest piece of advice I give to people is really, um, 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.360 be very mindful with each step and and to think, 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.440 try to think as clearly as possible about how to 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.480 keep those realms separate even when you have mixed them up. 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.600 As you said, most people know better what what do you? 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.800 And yet it happens like office romance has happened. So 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:37.200 what do you think is so enticing about getting into 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.120 relationships with the people that we work with. I think 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:42.800 I think it's just a great venue frankly to meet people, 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.320 which is really unfortunate. Some of it is really just 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.560 sheer numbers. I mean, you're spending several hours a day 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:52.640 with these other people. I think that most of us, 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:55.200 you know, I work alone. I'm a writer and in 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:58.200 a little podcasters. So you know, I don't really go 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:00.400 to the office and work with other people that when 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.840 I used to have jobs, I you know, fell in 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:05.000 love with those people. I mean, you grow to know 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.320 and care for people you spend time with as a 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.800 general rule, unless of course you loathe them and despise them. 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.000 But you know, if they're generally good people and you're 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:18.319 generally compatible, it's no surprise that what you know, when 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.640 you share that time together and you start to share 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.840 those friendships and intimacies, that sex and love and romance 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:26.760 are going to come into play. I mean, one of 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.240 the first pieces of advice I would give to people 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.200 really who who aren't yet in any kind of tangle 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.240 when it comes to love or romance or lust at 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.720 the office, is you know, to try to keep it 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:44.520 from happening from the outset to really embrace a very 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:48.920 firm boundary when it comes to the kinds of feelings 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:50.920 you're gonna allow yourself to have. I mean, to the 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:54.000 extent that we can allow ourselves selves to have feelings, 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.400 to really set that boundary and say I am only 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.439 going to be friends with with people with coworkers. I'm 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.000 not going to um allow myself to have those feelings, 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:06.760 and if I do start to have them, I'm going 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:09.480 to do everything in my power to to shut them 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:12.920 down turn away from them. That's almost always easier said 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.000 than done. But I do think that there is something 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.520 to be said for intention. I know a lot of 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:21.920 the advice I give people about other situations, when you 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:25.280 go in with the intention, with the consciousness, if you will, 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.480 of not doing something or making sure that you don't 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:31.400 go down a certain path, I think you're a lot 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:35.880 more successful in preventing it. Are there certain hard and 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.000 fast rules that you think about when it comes to 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.000 you know, like this is a firm boundary you absolutely 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.439 should not get in any sort of relationship with a 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.679 boss or you know, if you're doing if you're working 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.240 on a project together or something like that. Do you 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.600 think that there are harder rules that are like really 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.480 really knows. I think honesty really is the best policy 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.680 and in almost to every regard. And I know that 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:04.280 a lot of people out there, maybe people listening, and 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:06.880 certainly people have written to me. You know, We'll get 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.200 into a relationship and with somebody at the office and think, okay, 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.680 as long as we keep it a secret, we're doing 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:14.920 due diligence in terms of keeping that out of the 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.920 workplace and not letting that relationship interfere with work. But 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:22.000 I think that that's actually wrong because of course the 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.080 relationship exists, and so what you're doing is not only 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:28.280 bringing that relationship into the office, you're also bringing a 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.280 lie into the office, a secret. And you know, I 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.480 think that it's much more fair, um, not only to 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:36.960 one's co workers, but really to the two people in 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:40.760 the relationship themselves to be honest about it, to be 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:44.400 out with the relationship so that so that you know, 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.440 everything is on the table, everything's seen, that everything, every 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:51.800 possibility where a power dynamic might go the wrong way 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.480 or might be um you know, called into question when 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.320 it comes to two ethics or so forth, that that 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.000 everything that all of the people who are involved UM 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.680 with that situation are aware of the different dynamics that 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.760 go on. You know, my husband and I don't work 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.160 at an office, but we sometimes work together. And I 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:12.120 can't imagine UH doing a project with him and also 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.120 trying to pretend that there isn't this other layer of 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.680 our relationship that's really about something that's not about work 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.200 at all. And you know, I think that. Of course, 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:24.080 sometimes that kind of truth telling can cause a lot 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.600 of strife at the at the outset, a lot of 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:29.280 people will be upset or have a lot of questions 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.240 about what dynamics might be going on with these you know, 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:37.320 we've got especially a supervisor um and in in somebody 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:41.560 who's really uh a boss a boss employee sort of relationship. 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.600 But I do think that that that kind of transparency 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.560 is almost always the best way. Secrecy never leads to 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:52.520 good things. And when something is right out there, you 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.080 can discuss it, you can make decisions, you can put 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:59.320 people in different departments, give them different responsibilities if that 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.680 is of any concern. And you also just don't have 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.400 to have the burden of a secret to keep. And also, 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:07.920 even if you think you're keeping something a secret, there's 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.320 a pretty good chance that at least some of your 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.680 coworkers know about it. Right, Well, that's it. And I 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.040 think that when we do withhold information from other people, 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:18.840 even if we have good intentions, people who get involved 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.480 relationships who say let's keep this separate, you know, let's 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:24.400 just keep us out of the office, and and you know, 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:26.200 one of the arguments I think a lot of those 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.440 people make you know, it's like, you know this saying 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.840 that we're in a relationship would only cause trouble essentially 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:36.200 for for our our employment, our employers and our coworkers. 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:38.640 But you know the fact is that the secrets, as 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.880 you say, are almost always revealed. The and withholding information 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.240 is a kind of lie of omission, and people feel 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.840 betrayed by that. So in your work, what are some 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:54.640 of examples of letters along these lines that have really 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.480 made you think or that you think are really tough 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.120 issues when it comes to love in the work? Is 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:02.440 there anywhere you've really struggled to sort of figure out 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.800 what exactly is the right thing to do? Yeah, I 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:10.720 think really the most complicated scenario is a situation where 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:15.600 you know, a boss has you know, fallen in love 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:19.320 with and started a relationship with somebody who reports to 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:23.280 him or her. That's a really complicated dynamic. And and 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:26.080 and then on top of that, they they work in 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.119 in a situation where they can't be transferred to a 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:31.640 different department or that you know that that dynamic can't 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.520 be obliterated except if one or the other of them 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:38.920 quits the job. And that that's also the scenario where 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.879 people are most likely to keep secrets because the boss, 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:44.640 if you will, doesn't want the other employees to think 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:46.960 that here she is favoring his or her lover. But 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:51.000 of course, you know, there there's that undeniable loyalty that 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.719 comes from, you know, the people we are sleeping with. 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.080 You know that that we feel towards people we are 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:58.639 sleeping with and in love with. And so you know, 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:01.679 even if you go out your way for that for 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:05.679 that relationship to not to interfere with that boss employee relationship, 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.680 it almost always does. And so you know, that is 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:12.119 a really I think difficult situation to navigate and and 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:16.480 sometimes really the only ethical answer, the only practical answers 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.199 to say, yeah, that that somebody needs to find a 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.399 new job, and usually it's the person with the least 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:26.320 amount of power network situation, um, and those are those 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:28.600 are hard things to do, now, you know, I do 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.680 want to say that I'm sure there are people listening 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:33.880 out there who are are sort of shaking their heads 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:37.640 at us because they work with their partners very happily 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:41.439 and very peaceably and without conflict, and they work with 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:43.919 many co workers and there are no problems. And you know, 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.000 I think that's true too, I think as much as 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:49.120 we're saying, like try to avoid a real romantic relationship 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.159 in the workplace, the fact of the matter is as 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.959 they exist, they always have existed, and they probably always 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.320 will and they don't always go badly. I think if 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:01.439 you have a really functional work environment that is all 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:07.680 about communication and transparency and mutual respect um, and that 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.679 that that the two people in the relationship are not 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.359 who they really do, go out of their ways to 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.280 not you know, make work decisions based on that romantic alliance. 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:21.640 I think it can be done with some grace and 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.119 and to me, the solution to this, you know, this 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:26.680 problem that we're going to have throughout time is not 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.080 to say never ever ever do it, and if you 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.200 do do it, you're going to be punished, but rather 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:35.080 to say it's not a good idea because it's complicated, 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.320 but we're capable of dealing with complexity, that we that 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:42.400 we do have the capacity um when we rely on 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:46.720 that open communication and that ethic those ethical um sort 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:51.120 of decision making processes, that romance and the workplace can 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.320 coexist on occasion. I think that kind of sums up 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:57.120 the whole issue. So it's a good place to end 0:19:57.200 --> 0:19:59.639 thank you, Cheryl Straits so much for for taking the 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:01.520 time if to us. Oh, thank you. It was great 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:11.200 to talk to you. So, as Cheryl said, I think 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:14.199 the easiest way to get around all this is just 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.960 by not getting into office relationships to begin with. But 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:21.320 since it's going to happen, sometimes the second best way 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.520 to deal with it is just by being honest, even 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:27.440 if that's awkward for you and potentially your coworkers. Yeah, 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.720 and just be aware that if you're not honest, people 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.359 are going to figure it out eventually. I once worked 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.159 somewhere not here, and I'm not just saying that. It 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.639 definitely wasn't here, but a coworker was like trying to 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:41.439 tip me off to some office gossip, and so she 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:45.119 asked me to look at um, somebody who is pretty senior, 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.399 to look at their public outlook calendar. And I like 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:52.800 looked at it, and there was some vacation days blocked off, 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.359 you know, some needings, nothing out of the ordinary. And 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:56.879 I was like, Okay, what am I looking at here? 0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:59.880 And then she's like, now, look at so and so's calendar, 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:03.080 his female colleague, And I looked at her calendar and 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.800 she had exactly the same vacation days blocked off, and 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.119 I was like, Okay, oh my god, wait, I know 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:14.520 them people just dine out on this kind of gossip. 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:19.960 Like you, you cannot be too You can't be careful 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.080 enough to keep this from your coworkers, so you may 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:24.200 as well be open and honest about it. And I think, 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:26.040 by the way, those two people, they dated for a 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:28.159 long time and they ended up getting married, and I 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:30.040 don't think they still work together, although I'm not sure, 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:31.520 which is another thing that I think that you have 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:35.200 to consider, like both in the case of office romances 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.280 that go well and everybody everything works out happily and 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.120 people get married, which Cheryl did say, like these things 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:43.600 can work out both in those cases and in the 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:47.119 cases where they go really badly, your best bet is 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:51.240 to not work with that person anymore. So you might 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:55.000 have to find a way. No matter which way the 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.240 relationship goes, you are probably going to have to find 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:01.280 a new job or a new position in within your company. 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.120 And that really means waging whether the relationship is important 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:07.760