Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to What Future.
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Josh Wittapolski, and I would love to
Speaker 2: tell you that today on the show, we have a
Speaker 2: great guest.
Speaker 1: I would love to say that.
Speaker 2: I would love nothing more than to tell you that
Speaker 2: we had a great guest that's coming on and we're
Speaker 2: going to have such an interesting conversation about the media
Speaker 2: world because it's in tatters, it's been shattered, it is,
Speaker 2: it is scattered into the wind. Tucker Carlson gone, Don
Speaker 2: Lemon out, BuzzFeed closed, BuzzFeed News rather but unfortunately our
Speaker 2: guests couldn't make it. Who who I was going to
Speaker 2: talk to you about all that. I want to believe
Speaker 2: somebody really tragic came up, though I think it was
Speaker 2: just a just a tight booking situation and we couldn't
Speaker 2: make it work. But I mean, I don't want something
Speaker 2: tragic to have happened to the guests, obviously, just like
Speaker 2: a tragic event that prevented them from arriving at the
Speaker 2: studio in time or whatever. That's anyhow, let's not dwell
Speaker 2: on it. So we're gonna have to wing it. We're
Speaker 2: gonna have to do an episode where I don't know
Speaker 2: if I'm gonna be able to do it. Like, you know,
Speaker 2: the thing is, I don't have much to say, and
Speaker 2: I don't have a lot to talk about. I don't
Speaker 2: have very many opinions or positions on the day's news
Speaker 2: or what's happening in the world. So I think it'll
Speaker 2: be difficult, but I think it's possible. And and my producer, Lyra,
Speaker 2: who's here, I think, has agreed to help to jump
Speaker 2: in if if I'm drowning, has agreed to not jumping
Speaker 2: because that'd be a mistake, then we both be drowning
Speaker 2: in the water. But maybe has agreed to get a stick.
Speaker 3: Like a branch throw a life.
Speaker 2: I'm imagining you get like a dead like a tree
Speaker 2: has lost a large branch, and I'm drowning, and you're like,
Speaker 2: then you get the branch and you stick it out
Speaker 2: into the water, is my In my view, I guess
Speaker 2: that's more of a quicksand thing though really like seems
Speaker 2: like actually jumping in and saving me from drowning would
Speaker 2: be the right thing to do. So thanks for nothing,
Speaker 2: so Lyra Smith is here, and then Jenna. I don't
Speaker 2: know if Jenna's going to make it appearance. Jenna who's
Speaker 2: our supervising producer, Jenna Cagile. Now, Jenna doesn't like to
Speaker 2: I don't think she wants to be on air. I
Speaker 2: think I don't know she's got something to hide. We
Speaker 2: don't know that. We don't know the extent of it.
Speaker 2: But I don't know if she'll make an appearance or not.
Speaker 2: But at any rate, so we're going to try to
Speaker 2: get through. You have a lot to talk about. Why
Speaker 2: are you laughing, Lyra? You don't like am I putting
Speaker 2: on this pause.
Speaker 3: I can't see Jenna's face, so I don't know what
Speaker 3: she's thinking when you say.
Speaker 1: That she's happy. Actually she liked it. That's interesting. She's enjoying.
Speaker 1: And then I have stuff to hide. I have stuff.
Speaker 2: Because you do have stuff to hide. I know you
Speaker 2: had a troubled, very troubled teenage experience. I know you
Speaker 2: were kind of a bad kid.
Speaker 3: Well, Josh, it's funny that you say that, because that
Speaker 3: is what I wanted to ask you about.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, great.
Speaker 3: I said I had a question for Josh, non topical.
Speaker 3: It couldn't be less topical, actually, But then you made
Speaker 3: a reference to teenage years.
Speaker 1: I don't like. I do not like where this is
Speaker 1: going at all.
Speaker 3: You're the youngest person that I know of who dropped
Speaker 3: out of school, and I know a lot of people
Speaker 3: who dropped out of school.
Speaker 1: What does that mean when you mean I'm my current
Speaker 1: age is the young No?
Speaker 3: No, no, I mean you anybody you dropped out freshman
Speaker 3: year of high.
Speaker 2: School something like that. Yeah, that's right. That sounds right
Speaker 2: to my ninth grade? Is that freshman year?
Speaker 3: How? Yeah? I want to know this story. I feel
Speaker 3: like it's it's it's an important piece of the puzzle
Speaker 3: of who who Josh Chapolski is.
Speaker 1: Are you familiar with the government program known as mk Ultra?
Speaker 2: I am, Well, that's nothing to do with that, but
Speaker 2: it's a cool it's a cool thing that the government
Speaker 2: did really interesting experiments. So, uh, well, my brother and
Speaker 2: I had very troubled a school career. To be honest
Speaker 2: with you, My school problems began in I don't know,
Speaker 2: third grade or something, second grade, third grade because my
Speaker 2: brother decided one day that he didn't want to go
Speaker 2: to school. My brother Eric, and I don't know if
Speaker 2: I'm exposing him, you know his narrative, but I'm going
Speaker 2: to talk about it because anyhow, So I was his
Speaker 2: little brother. You know, I was a little kid at
Speaker 2: the time. Maybe he was in I don't know, fifth grade,
Speaker 2: sixth grade, I'm not really sure. Whatever, whatever the distance
Speaker 2: was there, and he was like, I'm not going to
Speaker 2: school and was like very militant about it. And my parents,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't think my parents were well equipped
Speaker 2: for certain aspects of parenting, and I think that they
Speaker 2: didn't quite know how to counter this. Eric and I
Speaker 2: were very strong willed, strong willed children. I think we
Speaker 2: were like, we don't want to go to school, and
Speaker 2: they were like, uh, okay, maybe like for a little bit,
Speaker 2: but then you're gonna have to go back. And then
Speaker 2: over time that just became a bigger and bigger problem.
Speaker 2: And so I was in and out of a bunch
Speaker 2: of different schools. I mean, I had more time in
Speaker 2: than Eric did, I think. To be honest with you,
Speaker 2: but you know, one of the things about when you
Speaker 2: start to miss a lot of school when you're young is, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, the feeling of having missed and not being
Speaker 2: a part of all of it, and and feeling like
Speaker 2: bad about like not knowing people and not knowing what's
Speaker 2: going on, and like you've been out and it's gonna
Speaker 2: be weird and you get back like that kind of
Speaker 2: I think builds up over time. And nobody in my
Speaker 2: family came up with a great solution. This is the
Speaker 2: probably the most I've ever talked about, like the actual
Speaker 2: like familial situation that was going on. By the way,
Speaker 2: nobody really had a solution. We went to therapists, We
Speaker 2: had all kinds of There was like, you know, intervention
Speaker 2: from you know, people associated with like the Department of
Speaker 2: Education or whatever, you know, like people like you can't
Speaker 2: just not let your kids go to school. My mother's
Speaker 2: a school teacher, by the way, which is in another
Speaker 2: fascinating aspect of the story. She's retired now obviously, And
Speaker 2: uh yeah, you know, I don't know. I was also
Speaker 2: like a crazy night owl. Like personally, I think Eric
Speaker 2: slept pretty normally, but I didn't, so I would just
Speaker 2: stay up all night, like fucking around on my computer.
Speaker 2: I started like using the Internet when I was twelve,
Speaker 2: And this is in I don't know a year, was
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine or something like, with the internet barely
Speaker 2: existed nineteen ninety, like there was like a local service
Speaker 2: provider anyhow. The second I started meeting people on the Internet.
Speaker 2: I was like, who needs reality? I have like all
Speaker 2: these friends in Perth, Australia who are up in the
Speaker 2: middle of the night on the Internet.
Speaker 1: So you know, that.
Speaker 2: Became like kind of my whole world. That became my
Speaker 2: whole life is like talking to people on hanging out
Speaker 2: with people on the internet. And then school was like
Speaker 2: this afterthought. Yeah, by the time I hit ninth grade,
Speaker 2: it was kind of like a it was a non starter.
Speaker 1: It wasn't going well and.
Speaker 3: It's ninth grade. Is that the earliest that a person
Speaker 3: can remove from public.
Speaker 2: I don't know, Actually, I don't think the situation was
Speaker 2: like totally. I don't know what the like legal situation was, like,
Speaker 2: I mean, my parents didn't go to jail or something.
Speaker 2: You know, we weren't taken away from them, and perhaps
Speaker 2: that's white privilege. I don't know, Like, you know, maybe
Speaker 2: I experienced like a you know, they were like, hey,
Speaker 2: we're working on it, and everybody was like okay, fine.
Speaker 2: In other situations that might not have been the case.
Speaker 2: And I think about it from time to time. It
Speaker 2: is like, you know, a strange thing besides not learning
Speaker 2: certain things at a certain period in time, like it's like,
Speaker 2: school's good. Like I have a daughter who's in school,
Speaker 2: and like, I see the result of the school and
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's great. She's really learning important stuff. That's
Speaker 2: super good. But beyond that, I think my ability to
Speaker 2: socialize with other people and my level of I don't
Speaker 2: know about level of maturity, but just my aptitude for
Speaker 2: socializing was adversely affected, I would say, by not being
Speaker 2: in school a lot at a young age. And so
Speaker 2: I think I became a naturally, very somewhat antisocial person.
Speaker 2: Though I think a lot of people would claim I'm
Speaker 2: not antisocial. I seem like I'm not antisocial, but I
Speaker 2: think most of my socializing is a defense mechanism anyhow.
Speaker 1: So that's my story. I don't know if that's helpful
Speaker 1: to you at all, but it is.
Speaker 3: And then by nineteen right, we're like a working producer.
Speaker 1: Correct.
Speaker 2: Oh, around the same time I started fucking with the internet.
Speaker 2: My brother was a guitar player. He was taking like
Speaker 2: guitar lessons. At some point he got a synthesizer and
Speaker 2: a drum machine. I can't remember why, but he was
Speaker 2: not interested in them and he sort of discarded them.
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, what are these what are
Speaker 2: these electronic devices and let me check those out? Because
Speaker 2: I was just a very Like all my life, I
Speaker 2: was just a very I'm trying to think of the
Speaker 2: best way to describe this. Oh, it was always very
Speaker 2: interested in like how things worked, and like electronic things,
Speaker 2: and like like I also a fairly weird kid, I guess,
Speaker 2: like I used to go and radio shacks don't exist anymore,
Speaker 2: but one of my favorite things to do when I
Speaker 2: was like a little kid, like six, my parents would
Speaker 2: take me to radio shack, and radio shacks sold all
Speaker 2: of these like parts, like these little motors and like
Speaker 2: switches and buzzers, and you could like basically connect them
Speaker 2: if you could figure it out, you could make them
Speaker 2: do dumb things like you could make the motor go
Speaker 2: and a light go off and a sound go off.
Speaker 2: They weren't kids, they were literally just like the parts.
Speaker 2: And I used to love to like get the parts
Speaker 2: and like put them together and make weird little like
Speaker 2: gadgets or contraptions or whatever, you know. So whatever that
Speaker 2: thing was was just a continuous part of my personality.
Speaker 2: So when I got ahold of the synthesizer and drum machine,
Speaker 2: I started making like weird computer music, like you know
Speaker 2: what you see these people they're like it's like, there's
Speaker 2: a great documentary about this guy. It's called in the
Speaker 2: Realms of the Unreal, I believe is the name of it.
Speaker 2: It's narrated by Dakota Fanning. It's super weird. Actually, it's
Speaker 2: about this guy whose name is I want to say
Speaker 2: Henry Darger, but he like you know, made paintings for
Speaker 2: fifty years and wrote like a fifteen thousand page like novel,
Speaker 2: like he's out of his mind. But like anyhow, I
Speaker 2: was like that like for music, Like I didn't really
Speaker 2: listen to music, didn't really like wasn't that interested in it,
Speaker 2: Like my touchsdoones for like music. When I was younger,
Speaker 2: I was like, I like the pet Shop Boys and
Speaker 2: the Jesus Christ Superstar soundtrack, so like the real like
Speaker 2: wide range of the spectrum of musical interest there. Anyhow,
Speaker 2: So I took the keyboard and the drum machine. I
Speaker 2: started fucking around with them. Then eventually because of the Internet,
Speaker 2: So when I was on the Internet at like fifteen
Speaker 2: or sixteen or whatever, aim did not exist. The Internet
Speaker 2: that I used was like a command line to like things.
Speaker 2: You could visit on the Internet, and there were things
Speaker 2: you could do like once you were online. One of
Speaker 2: them was a thing called telnet, which was like a
Speaker 2: Unix function which dials into like a server that somebody hosts.
Speaker 2: And there was a thing called v Rave, which was
Speaker 2: a virtual rave, which was like ravers would go into
Speaker 2: this like chat room. Basically they would tell net to
Speaker 2: a chat room and then you would talk to people.
Speaker 2: It's like just pure text and emojis, but not emojis
Speaker 2: like you know, like emoticons, like you know, like shit
Speaker 2: like that. It was like super duper like basic. Anyhow,
Speaker 2: so I met people and I ended up somehow in
Speaker 2: v Rave talking to people, and then I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: there's these things like I'm up all night. There's these
Speaker 2: things where people go out and listen to like insane
Speaker 2: electronic music all night long, and and so I started
Speaker 2: doing that when I was like sixteen or seventeen, and
Speaker 2: a bunch of people in Australia were actually ravers as well.
Speaker 2: And then I started making music like that was you know,
Speaker 2: like techno music and trans.
Speaker 1: And stuff like that.
Speaker 2: And then and then yeah, I think I was nineteen
Speaker 2: when I released my first record. I would go to
Speaker 2: Raves and I was sober. I was like the only
Speaker 2: sober person and for a long time, and people would
Speaker 2: be like what do you want. I'm like, I'm not,
Speaker 2: this is just my personality and.
Speaker 1: Uh and so like I did a lot of.
Speaker 2: Like observing at raves, you know. I was like a
Speaker 2: lot of like just kind of like what's going on here.
Speaker 2: The first thing I did when I started going to
Speaker 2: raves was I thought like, oh, somebody should do like weird,
Speaker 2: Like there could be like cool weird visuals, and so
Speaker 2: of course my gadget brain was like what if I
Speaker 2: bought like twenty old TVs and I like set them
Speaker 2: up in like a grid and then got like live
Speaker 2: video mixing software on my computer and like did weird
Speaker 2: live psychedelic video mixing along to the music? So immediately
Speaker 2: I met some people who were throwing raised and I
Speaker 2: was like, Hey, have you guys ever thought about.
Speaker 1: You know, having a weird visual thing here? And they
Speaker 1: were like, sure, do that.
Speaker 2: And then I did that for a while, which was
Speaker 2: sort of my entry point to like making music and deejaying.
Speaker 3: So were you like working like a part time job
Speaker 3: during this?
Speaker 2: I had some odd jobs. I worked at a bank
Speaker 2: doing data entry for a little while, which I found
Speaker 2: to be extremely, extremely boring. I worked for a very
Speaker 2: short period of time. I worked at a place called
Speaker 2: Mailboxes et cetera, which is a it's like a shipping store,
Speaker 2: and there was a very old woman who ran it,
Speaker 2: who was like the meanest person I've ever met in
Speaker 2: my entire life, and she hated hated my guts and
Speaker 2: thought I was I was terrible at my job, which
Speaker 2: is probably true. I worked one day at a Blockbuster.
Speaker 2: That was maybe my first job was I worked one
Speaker 2: day at a Blockbuster. I thought working at Alockbuster would
Speaker 2: be awesome until I got there and realized what working
Speaker 2: into Blockbuster was like. And I was like, actually, this
Speaker 2: is not good and I don't want to be here.
Speaker 3: What was it like, because it still seems awesome to me.
Speaker 2: No, I was just like depressing, and there was like
Speaker 2: a lot of dumb work, like like rewinding videotapes, like
Speaker 2: like finding tapes that weren't rewound and rewinding them, and
Speaker 2: like getting mismatch tapes and boxes, and you know, like
Speaker 2: checking people out who.
Speaker 1: Were in a bad mood or whatever. It didn't want
Speaker 1: to be nice to you.
Speaker 2: I was just you know, like any retail jobs just
Speaker 2: monotonous bullshit where you get treated like crap by the customers.
Speaker 2: So I had some jobs like that. I've worked for
Speaker 2: a brief period of time as eighteen as a graphic
Speaker 2: designer at some graphic design firm in Pittsburgh, and that
Speaker 2: didn't work out because I didn't want to. I didn't
Speaker 2: want to do design for other people, like they're like,
Speaker 2: design this thing, and I was like, this is stupid
Speaker 2: and I hate it. I want to do my own thing.
Speaker 2: Of course, this is like the story of my life.
Speaker 3: Did you find it hard that you to get a
Speaker 3: job because you didn't have like a ged or like.
Speaker 1: No, never, I didn't find it hard to get a job.
Speaker 2: Actually, weirdly enough, I'm not even sure how I got
Speaker 2: a lot of these jobs that the design one.
Speaker 1: I remember.
Speaker 2: I think I a friend of mine worked at this place.
Speaker 2: They did like real stuff like for ads, and like
Speaker 2: they were an actual business, like in an office building,
Speaker 2: and and I think I either I went in there
Speaker 2: like one day they would like needed some help with something,
Speaker 2: or I don't even remember it. Maybe I like I
Speaker 2: got out of remember, but they saw some of my design.
Speaker 2: They were like this is really good, Like, do you
Speaker 2: want to work here? And I was like, because I
Speaker 2: had been doing like rave flyers and stuff like on
Speaker 2: the side, anything related to computers I was doing, except coding,
Speaker 2: which would have been the best thing to learn, which
Speaker 2: I never did.
Speaker 1: If I was smart, I.
Speaker 2: Would have learned to code, like like a lot of
Speaker 2: people of that generation. But I was like, everything you
Speaker 2: could do creative with a computer I was interested in.
Speaker 2: But if it had anything to do with like numbers
Speaker 2: or math or like frankly, just learning something that didn't
Speaker 2: come naturally to me, I was like, no, thank you.
Speaker 3: So then when did you move to New York?
Speaker 2: You know, if we're doing like my life story. So
Speaker 2: I started making music and djaying, but like I thought,
Speaker 2: everything I.
Speaker 1: Made was terrible.
Speaker 2: And and I met this DJ guy named Duran who
Speaker 2: was a pretty popular DJ from the West Coast. Duran
Speaker 2: Chambers is his name. He co ran a record label
Speaker 2: on the West Coast called Rampant Records, and he knew
Speaker 2: this guy at a label called Fragrant Records. These were, like,
Speaker 2: you know, fairly well known, like trance or techno labels.
Speaker 2: Any I gave him one of my tapes and I
Speaker 2: was apparently he told me the story many many years later,
Speaker 2: maybe months later. I can't remember how long the delay was,
Speaker 2: but I gave him a tape and I was like,
Speaker 2: I think we were at a party in Detroit. By
Speaker 2: the way, this is the kind of thing like on
Speaker 2: a regular basis, I would be in like Detroit or
Speaker 2: Baltimore or like Cleveland or wherever, like just traveling to
Speaker 2: go to a rave or DJing or just hanging out.
Speaker 2: And I gave him a tape. We were in like Detroit.
Speaker 2: Detroit raves were interesting too, because it was like when
Speaker 2: Detroit was like really like fairly like it was pretty
Speaker 2: could be pretty scary, like just like it was pretty
Speaker 2: run down, and I mean still is to some extent.
Speaker 2: But I just remember being there. I think one of
Speaker 2: the parties we were at, they were like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: we have snipers on the roof to make sure Nobe
Speaker 2: tries to steal like get out of here with like
Speaker 2: our money. I was like, that seems like a bad scene.
Speaker 2: It's like a bad vibe for the for the rave.
Speaker 3: But anyhow, also, don't really trust the snipers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, It's like maybe it was just
Speaker 2: a story that they were telling everybody, but at any rate.
Speaker 2: I think I gave him a tape in Detroit and
Speaker 2: I was like, this is apparently. I was like, this
Speaker 2: is terrible and not really finished, and like it's not good.
Speaker 2: You shouldn't listen to it. But here's some songs I've
Speaker 2: been working on. And he was like, I put it
Speaker 2: on a shelf. I was like, the guy said this
Speaker 2: was terrible and I'm not listening to it. So for
Speaker 2: many months, I guess didn't listen to it, and then
Speaker 2: turned out he liked it. And that's how I started.
Speaker 2: So it was very random, like I wasn't like trying
Speaker 2: that hard anyhow. So then I put out a record
Speaker 2: on Fragrant or Rampant. Maybe I did a remix for them.
Speaker 2: I think I was like nineteen years old something like that,
Speaker 2: probably eighteen nineteen, somewhere in that range.
Speaker 3: Can I just ask like, if you're nineteen and then
Speaker 3: all this stuff was happening, did you feel lucky? Like,
Speaker 3: what's the feeling?
Speaker 1: I felt nothing?
Speaker 2: I felt what's the feeling? The feeling was like no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I mean people do who when you're doing that? You're
Speaker 2: not like, Wow, I'm so lucky. You're just kind of
Speaker 2: like I want to do this thing and now oh
Speaker 2: I can do it, and you're like, oh, well, no,
Speaker 2: what else I could do like that? At least that's
Speaker 2: for me. I was like, Oh, I'm doing a thing now,
Speaker 2: like that's cool, Like let me do more of that
Speaker 2: or let me try some other thing or whatever, you know.
Speaker 2: For me, it was just like a rolling, like creative rolling,
Speaker 2: like what what am I interested in doing? What's like
Speaker 2: satisfying to me creatively? And then actually the thing about
Speaker 2: the demo tape was I knew people who were like
Speaker 2: really aggressively like mailing tapes out and like promoting themselves,
Speaker 2: and like I do not have like the promotion gene
Speaker 2: like I think you guys even experience this now where
Speaker 2: I'm like even a little cagey about like putting a
Speaker 2: clip from the show on like Instagram or I'm not
Speaker 2: like I'm like, ah, is that great? Like do I
Speaker 2: want to put It's kind of like I don't really
Speaker 2: love like self promotion, so I was like actually not
Speaker 2: working very hard at promoting myself, which is why like
Speaker 2: it seemed like a weird fluke that anybody even ever
Speaker 2: listened to the tape.
Speaker 1: So before I moved to New York.
Speaker 2: I moved to Philadelphia, but this was like many years after,
Speaker 2: And in fact, somebody just said me an interview that
Speaker 2: I did in the year two thousand in a magazine.
Speaker 2: They sent me a picture of the of the interview
Speaker 2: because they had clipped it. And first off, I come
Speaker 2: off like a complete asshole in the interview, like I
Speaker 2: sound like the biggest asshole in the world, like just
Speaker 2: a total jerk, and like with a bad sense of humor.
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe the writer wanted it to be that way,
Speaker 2: but I'm like, oh yeah, this, God, I sound so annoying. Also,
Speaker 2: I shit on Pittsburgh in the interview. I say that
Speaker 2: people can't read there because I had just moved to Philadelphia,
Speaker 2: and I make some I think I was trying to
Speaker 2: be funny, like in a way that does not translate
Speaker 2: in print. And I think, of course, now I have
Speaker 2: to say what it was like twenty yeah, something like that.
Speaker 2: They were like, how's Philadelphia to Pittsburgh, And I was like, well,
Speaker 2: at least people can read here, And I think, like
Speaker 2: the joke was. It wasn't like I didn't think people
Speaker 2: in Pittsburgh couldn't read. It was just like a funny
Speaker 2: thing to say, because like they're pretty much the same.
Speaker 2: They're pretty similar, you know, in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: I remember people being mad about that in Pittsburgh, but
Speaker 2: I didn't care because I was on my way to
Speaker 2: the big time, to the big city. I moved to
Speaker 2: Philadelphia for a couple of years because a bunch of
Speaker 2: my friends had moved there, and I found Philadelphia to
Speaker 2: be Uh.
Speaker 1: Maybe I've talked about this with you before.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I have Lyra or Jenna, but
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not a spiritual person. I'm not a
Speaker 2: big religious person or believer in things like luck or
Speaker 2: Jinx's or you know what, you know, cosmic phenomena that
Speaker 2: can't be explained.
Speaker 1: But I do think it's.
Speaker 2: Possible that Philadelphia is a locus of evil on the planet.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like the Bermuda Triangle, like just a
Speaker 2: spot on the planet where dark, very dark situations occur.
Speaker 2: I had a very bad time in Philadelphia. I understand now,
Speaker 2: like it's like kind of everybody's like loves Philadelphia and
Speaker 2: apparently it's great. I have no ill will towards the city,
Speaker 2: but there was a period where I was like I
Speaker 2: got to get the fuck out of Philadelphia. Anyhow, my
Speaker 2: brother moved to New York because he had moved to
Speaker 2: Philadelphia too after I had, and then he moved to
Speaker 2: New York. And then I came to visit him and
Speaker 2: we went to a restaurant which is still in business
Speaker 2: called Diner.
Speaker 3: You know, diner, Lyra, Where is it in New York.
Speaker 1: It's in Williamsburg.
Speaker 3: It's on oh, the one, right off the first stop
Speaker 3: on the L.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, diner.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I had my first date across the street from
Speaker 3: it with Nick Turner.
Speaker 1: There you go.
Speaker 2: So I came to visit Eric and he's like, you
Speaker 2: gotta go to diner. They have a great burger and
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, because it's very this is Williamsburg in
Speaker 2: the two thousand.
Speaker 1: I don't what's two thousand and two.
Speaker 2: It's like very recently post nine to eleven, and so
Speaker 2: New York's weird, very interesting vibe in New York, very weird.
Speaker 1: Interesting.
Speaker 2: Like for me, it was like, oh, like I want
Speaker 2: to be here. This is this is where it all happens.
Speaker 2: This is the terrorists are going to strike. They're going
Speaker 2: to strike here, So this is where to be.
Speaker 3: Did you meet Laura in New York.
Speaker 1: No, but hold on a second. I went to diner.
Speaker 2: And the thing with diner is that every waitress who
Speaker 2: worked there, at least from what I could tell, was
Speaker 2: like unbelievably flirty. And of course I had some horrible
Speaker 2: relationship in Philadelphia and had been like broken up with
Speaker 2: and felt really bad.
Speaker 1: And I was like flirted with heavily by the waitress.
Speaker 1: And I think just not for.
Speaker 2: Any other reason other than it, would you know, guarantee
Speaker 2: a good tip from the you know, four dumb dudes
Speaker 2: who were at the table or whatever. And I was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I gotta move to New York. It's
Speaker 2: all happening here, Like beautiful, cosmopolitan ladies are flirting with
Speaker 2: me at the restaurant.
Speaker 1: You know, the burger is great. Like literally it was
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: It was like something as simple as like WHOA, this
Speaker 2: feels better. You asked me a question. What was the question?
Speaker 3: Did you meet Laura in New York? No?
Speaker 1: I met Laura.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a fast forward here to this story.
Speaker 2: But my brother and I ended up having a studio
Speaker 2: music studio in New York, and we had a band,
Speaker 2: but we also were producing different bands like Chick Chick
Speaker 2: Chick we made a record with and some other bands.
Speaker 1: And I saw them, Oh really, yeah, they're great.
Speaker 2: We made a record called Mythtakes with them, which I
Speaker 2: believe todate is their highest reviewed record on Pitchfork. So
Speaker 2: that's all my doing, undoubtedly. But anyhow, but so we
Speaker 2: were doing that for a while and then a friend
Speaker 2: of ours brought He was like, my friend has a
Speaker 2: band and they want to make a record. Can I
Speaker 2: bring them to the studio? And they came up from
Speaker 2: Pittsburgh and it was is this guy, John de Zubin's
Speaker 2: band and John is Laura's brother, And we produced their
Speaker 2: record and then we went back to Pittsburgh. This is
Speaker 2: the summer of two thousand, I want to say four
Speaker 2: or five, for they had a record release party for
Speaker 2: their record that we produced, and that is like technically
Speaker 2: where Laura and I met, though she claims there was
Speaker 2: an earlier encounter at our friend's house where we were
Speaker 2: on his porch and she was having a cigarette and
Speaker 2: I told her that smoking was really bad for you
Speaker 2: and she should quick because she's going to get cancer,
Speaker 2: which like absolutely sounds like my move, so like Byboove
Speaker 2: would have been to just say whatever was on my mind,
Speaker 2: usually something negative to whoever, especially if it was a
Speaker 2: cute girl. Edihow, so, you know, nagging, very good flirt technique.
Speaker 2: I think we all know very.
Speaker 3: Much you were the original.
Speaker 1: But uh yeah, that's that's a long time ago to now.
Speaker 3: So then did she move to New York?
Speaker 1: Yes, well we started dating.
Speaker 2: We started a long distance love affair, and then I
Speaker 2: was like, why don't you come visit me? And oh,
Speaker 2: I should mention like her boyfriend at the time was
Speaker 2: the drummer in John's band, so who was also named
Speaker 2: Josh and was also like a tall guy with a beard.
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to read too much into it.
Speaker 2: But you know, let's just say I've spent some time
Speaker 2: in therapy discuss it. No, I haven't, but tough guys
Speaker 2: don't go to therapy. Tough guys like myself. Laura and
Speaker 2: I actually began a relationship on MySpace. To be honest
Speaker 2: with you, like if I can date the whole thing
Speaker 2: for a second. We sent a lot of messages to
Speaker 2: each other on MySpace and then I was like, you
Speaker 2: should come visit, you know, come to New York for
Speaker 2: a weekend or something. And then she came to New
Speaker 2: York and we had a great time, and she went
Speaker 2: back and I was like, look, there's no way I'm
Speaker 2: going to be successful in a long distance relationship.
Speaker 1: You should just move here and live with me. And
Speaker 1: that's what we did. That's what we did.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: And one year later we were engaged and one year
Speaker 1: later we were married.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: We got married at the Carnegie Museum of History or
Speaker 2: whatever in Pittsburgh.
Speaker 1: Well, actually, I didn't want to.
Speaker 2: Ever have a wedding, and then Laura told me that
Speaker 2: you could rent the museum and that there was a
Speaker 2: possibility of doing getting married in like the dinosaur.
Speaker 1: Whatever, but it was under construction.
Speaker 2: We got married in the whole of North American Wildlife,
Speaker 2: and we had our reception in the Hall of Architecture,
Speaker 2: which was like all of these recreations of giant famous
Speaker 2: pieces of like you know, like Roman columns and things
Speaker 2: like that. Anyhow, it's fun. That was a fun time.
Speaker 2: It was a fun time. It was also a time
Speaker 2: when like we were like, how are we going to
Speaker 2: pay for this? Because we paid for it ourselves and
Speaker 2: it was like, I don't know, it was like several
Speaker 2: thousand dollars, but like it was not like it, Like
Speaker 2: now it seems like wow, like that should not as
Speaker 2: stressed as hot as much.
Speaker 1: As it did.
Speaker 2: But it was like a lot of money at the time.
Speaker 2: Like now that I'm like grown up, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's not that bad. But like at the time, I
Speaker 2: was like, what are we doing?
Speaker 3: Well? You didn't have the comparison to like the thirty thousand,
Speaker 3: forty thousand dollars weddings as like the norm.
Speaker 2: No, I didn't have any comparison because I'd never spent
Speaker 2: a second thinking about weddings at all, except that I
Speaker 2: didn't want one.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to have one.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like how I thought about poodles, Like
Speaker 2: I thought poodles came with that hair dial like I
Speaker 2: thought when I was a kid, did I already talk
Speaker 2: about this? We had We got a poodle when I
Speaker 2: was a kid. His name was Fletch. My mother had
Speaker 2: had poodles when she was growing up. We wanted a
Speaker 2: dog really badly, so we went shopping for dogs, and
Speaker 2: but like before we went, I was like, I don't
Speaker 2: want a poodle because I thought poodles came with those
Speaker 2: I thought they were like genetically had those ball like haircuts,
Speaker 2: you know, like I didn't realize that that was It's
Speaker 2: so funny the way kids minds worked.
Speaker 1: But I didn't realize that that was like a choice.
Speaker 2: And then we started like looking at dogs, and I like,
Speaker 2: you know, we eventually found like some dogs and we
Speaker 2: were like, we really love them, and we were playing
Speaker 2: with them, and I was like, is this a poodle,
Speaker 2: because like I kind of had like a feelid.
Speaker 1: Then of course I.
Speaker 2: Realized that the poodles don't have tom don't have to
Speaker 2: have that haircut. But also we realized that poodles are
Speaker 2: very ill tempered dogs. And and Fletch was very, very cruel,
Speaker 2: but every member of the family. No, he was fine,
Speaker 2: very smart. He figured how to open his crate from
Speaker 2: the inside. He could open his cage and get out.
Speaker 2: He set off our motion alarm all the time. It's
Speaker 2: fun stuff.
Speaker 1: We've digressed.
Speaker 3: So then when did you get into journalism.
Speaker 1: It's funny you.
Speaker 2: Should ask that my brother and I were running the studio.
Speaker 2: We were producing bands, and then uh, this website and
Speaker 2: gadget had a call for which I read all the time.
Speaker 2: You know, I was like a nerd, so I was
Speaker 2: reading all like the tech blogs and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: and they had an open call for writers, like every
Speaker 2: once in a while they'd be like, you know, hey,
Speaker 2: we're looking for writers. Are you do you want to
Speaker 2: freelance for us? Like do you want to write blog posts?
Speaker 2: And I was like that would be fun, maybe I
Speaker 2: could do that, And you know, I sent like a
Speaker 2: submission like I'm like, hey.
Speaker 1: I'd like to write for you.
Speaker 2: Here's like whatever they asked for example, posts or something,
Speaker 2: and then like pretty quickly like ended up like doing
Speaker 2: that and then so at night.
Speaker 3: Like it in writing things as you were going or.
Speaker 2: You know, I'd written a couple I'd written a couple
Speaker 2: of reviews, like for like magazines, like very basic stuff,
Speaker 2: you know, mixed mag or somebody would be like, hey,
Speaker 2: do you want to do like a guest review of
Speaker 2: like a.
Speaker 1: Record or something.
Speaker 2: I'm like sure, And it would be like, you know,
Speaker 2: a very small but like not like on a regular basis,
Speaker 2: like I did like two of them or three of
Speaker 2: them or something.
Speaker 1: No, I hadn't been writing at all.
Speaker 3: I had, so then I had to write stuff in
Speaker 3: order to do this, like to send in samples, you
Speaker 3: had to like write news. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it was like do a writing sample or
Speaker 2: like do you know it was like pick a story
Speaker 2: and write a blog post about it or something. I
Speaker 2: remember at the time, I was like really into palm devices.
Speaker 2: Do you remember palm pilots.
Speaker 1: Well, they had phones, right, they'd like and there was
Speaker 1: like a leak of like.
Speaker 2: There was some new Palm phone and I remember like
Speaker 2: I found it on some weird forum and I like
Speaker 2: brought it to the people at you know, I brought
Speaker 2: to like the editor, and I think they were like
Speaker 2: impressed that I had gone like and gone with splunking
Speaker 2: for like this you know, leaked photo or something and anyhow, So, yeah,
Speaker 2: so I started working there like part time, just like
Speaker 2: you know, writing blog posts.
Speaker 1: You know. I was edited and worked with like the
Speaker 1: people who would.
Speaker 2: Work there for a while and and then like so
Speaker 2: so by day I was producing music and by night
Speaker 2: I was you know writing, Like there was a pretty
Speaker 2: good period of time.
Speaker 1: This is in like the.
Speaker 2: Heyday of like original blogging, where I would write like
Speaker 2: ten blog posts a day and I was paid eleven
Speaker 2: dollars a post. Like, so I was like, this is
Speaker 2: pretty good money if I can write like ten of these,
Speaker 2: you know, and they're like, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: Three to five hundred word like very bloggy.
Speaker 2: Just it was just fucking very random, like about tech
Speaker 2: stuff by gadgets and whatever. Anyhow, So I did that
Speaker 2: for a while and then and then they were like,
Speaker 2: this is you're doing great. Do you want to work
Speaker 2: here full time? And I thought, like I did? I
Speaker 2: mean I did because I liked it a lot, and
Speaker 2: also like the music business sucks, like it sucks like
Speaker 2: being a producer unless you are this is of course
Speaker 2: a different era, but like I wasn't doing okay, but
Speaker 2: it's just a tough racket. You got to chase people
Speaker 2: down for money, and unless you're having like huge success,
Speaker 2: you know, it's very tough, very tough to make a
Speaker 2: living at it.
Speaker 1: So I was like, yeah, I'll do that full time.
Speaker 1: And then a year later I was the editor in chief. Wow,
Speaker 1: a lot of my stories are like a lot of
Speaker 1: my stories shill learn.
Speaker 3: Why do you think this is? Like I'm hearing this
Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, do you not watch TV?
Speaker 1: What do you mean? Like I mean not really, no,
Speaker 1: I don't. I mean not a lot, but.
Speaker 3: Like it feels like you've spent a lot of time
Speaker 3: filling your days with like actual productive activity without thinking
Speaker 3: of it as being productive.
Speaker 2: No, right, just no, all my activities were purely pleasurable
Speaker 2: for me. You know, I've basically tried to gravitate towards
Speaker 2: things that I found enjoyable to do and interesting, like
Speaker 2: creatively and intellectually.
Speaker 1: So no, I mean I didn't think. I don't I'm
Speaker 1: not a.
Speaker 2: Big planner or like a big like let me step
Speaker 2: back and admire the view of what is going on.
Speaker 2: It's more like, you know, I'm just doing just moving
Speaker 2: forward towards the thing, whatever that thing is.
Speaker 1: And but you've been.
Speaker 3: Able to be successful in all the things, which is
Speaker 3: like impressive, like the stuff that you're interested in, you
Speaker 3: find like very quick success.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I think I just I'm very tall, So
Speaker 2: I think people are just intimidated. I just show up
Speaker 2: and they're like, just don't mess this guy's big, who
Speaker 2: knows what he's gonna do.
Speaker 1: No, I don't know.
Speaker 2: It is interesting like like when I joined when I
Speaker 2: joined NGADGA full time, I got very immersed in doing it,
Speaker 2: and I became very quickly like very good at I
Speaker 2: think what I was doing. And then you know, began
Speaker 2: like leveled up a bit, like became an editor of
Speaker 2: other people like pretty quickly. And then what happened was
Speaker 2: like about a year or a year and a half
Speaker 2: something like something like a year a year and a
Speaker 2: half after I joined full time, the editor who was
Speaker 2: there was leaving to go do something new, and there
Speaker 2: was this like kind of weird like nobody seemed to
Speaker 2: know what was going to happen because he had been
Speaker 2: there for like a really long time, guy named Ryan Block,
Speaker 2: and you know, because it was owned by AOL and
Speaker 2: AOL sucked and they always manage things badly and to
Speaker 2: like extinction, and there was a feeling of like who's
Speaker 2: going to take over now or who's going to run
Speaker 2: this that can like carry the baton or whatever. And
Speaker 2: I was like, hey, like I think I'd be good
Speaker 2: at this. And I talked to like other people there
Speaker 2: and I was like, hey, would you guys be if
Speaker 2: I was like put myself forward to like do this,
Speaker 2: would you be into it? And people are like yes?
Speaker 2: And then it was so it was kind of like
Speaker 2: we sort of came up with a plan like as
Speaker 2: a as a group, and I mean it was my
Speaker 2: somewhat my plan, I guess, but you know, it just
Speaker 2: felt like there was a vacuum there and we should
Speaker 2: be mindful of like filling it the right way or whatever.
Speaker 1: And that was that, Like it is odd. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think it's probably a lot of this has to
Speaker 2: do with I just like probably to in some ways
Speaker 2: negative way. But I'm very blunt. I've been very blunt
Speaker 2: and very straightforward with people about like what I want
Speaker 2: or like what I would like to do, and if
Speaker 2: not straightforward with them like verbally, just like straightforward about
Speaker 2: like what it is I am doing and enjoy doing.
Speaker 2: I don't have a lot of friends, but like I
Speaker 2: became very close with the people that I work with,
Speaker 2: Like I've always been very close to the people that
Speaker 2: I work with, and and I like value those relationships
Speaker 2: and like this is a weird especially as a boss
Speaker 2: to be like, because I am a boss of people
Speaker 2: and have been for a while, but like to be like, well,
Speaker 2: I think of those people as my friends because at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, like I'm like a manager
Speaker 2: and they are people who work at a company. But
Speaker 2: I also feel like just surrounding yourself with good people
Speaker 2: and getting to work with them is is really important.
Speaker 2: So I haven't I didn't invest a lot of time
Speaker 2: in like I don't know what other other people do.
Speaker 1: I don't know, socializing or.
Speaker 2: Going out and enjoying life, watching movies, Like I've done
Speaker 2: some of that obviously, but I've spent a lot of
Speaker 2: time like doing the work the thing that I'm working at,
Speaker 2: because the thing that I'm working at is usually like
Speaker 2: the fun thing and the good thing, and I get
Speaker 2: to hang out with cool people and do it with
Speaker 2: people that are interesting and you know, fun to talk
Speaker 2: to and work with and create with.
Speaker 3: So and then what year is that that you're editor
Speaker 3: in chief of in Gadget.
Speaker 1: Two thousand and eight nine? Maybe?
Speaker 3: So, then when does box happen?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 2: Okay, So there was a guy named Marty Mo who
Speaker 2: worked at AOL who was like in charge of the
Speaker 2: media brands there. And Marty is this guy he had
Speaker 2: like a really big vision for a really bold media brand,
Speaker 2: like if we like expand these franchises that we have,
Speaker 2: like end Gadget was one of our brands, and there
Speaker 2: were some other things, you know, when AOL News was
Speaker 2: sort of like a still a thing and kind of
Speaker 2: taking more of a shape. This is before hoftingon post
Speaker 2: or any of that. Because I remember AOL bought Hofftington Post,
Speaker 2: so Marty and I became buddies like after I you know,
Speaker 2: started running end Gadget, and we sort of like were like, Hey,
Speaker 2: wouldn't it be cool if we could expand this, Like
Speaker 2: wouldn't be cool if we could like make this bigger
Speaker 2: and more bold and try some new things and like
Speaker 2: do more video and do this, you know, like basically
Speaker 2: the verge. Like we were like, it'd be cool if that,
Speaker 2: but that didn't exist right, Like we didn't have budget,
Speaker 2: we couldn't hire people, we didn't have like any ability
Speaker 2: to like make really interesting choices about like the product
Speaker 2: and things like that. So we took it to the
Speaker 2: to the people who ran AOL, where like would you
Speaker 2: be open to investing money? Like this thing's all was
Speaker 2: really successful, and we were like, would you be a
Speaker 2: into investing like a little bit more money in it
Speaker 2: so we could.
Speaker 1: Make it like a huge like a huge business.
Speaker 2: And they were like no, like we're not going to
Speaker 2: invest in fact, we're probly going to do some layoff
Speaker 2: soon or whatever, you know, And so we were like
Speaker 2: fuck this, like fuck that, like we should go just
Speaker 2: do it. Like we were talking on the phone one night.
Speaker 2: I think I said something like, God, I wish we
Speaker 2: could just like take n gadget like out of the
Speaker 2: company and just run it on its own. And then
Speaker 2: we were like, oh, wait, like maybe we can like
Speaker 2: or maybe we can just like see if other people
Speaker 2: would want to do that, and maybe there's somewhere to
Speaker 2: like build something new, or maybe we could build something
Speaker 2: from scratch or whatever, and that like kind of snowballed
Speaker 2: into we met Marty knew this guy named Jim Bankoff.
Speaker 2: Jim Bankoff was running a website called ESB Nation, which
Speaker 2: was a network of fan run sports blogs and it
Speaker 2: had grown to like a pretty big size, but it
Speaker 2: was like all sports focus. And we met with him
Speaker 2: and they had a really cool CMS, which is the
Speaker 2: content management system. They had a really cool like technology
Speaker 2: that they were building to like publish like on the Internet.
Speaker 2: And I thought that was really interesting, and we had
Speaker 2: a lot of very similar ideas about like the future
Speaker 2: of media on the Internet, and you know, if we
Speaker 2: could bring the right people over and build something, like
Speaker 2: could we build something together? And that's that's how Vox started, really,
Speaker 2: and they had this like sports focused thing and we
Speaker 2: brought in not everybody but a lot of people from Engadget,
Speaker 2: but then from other places as well, and we started
Speaker 2: building you know, the verge, which would become like the
Speaker 2: first that was like the first, like vox brand. So
Speaker 2: that's how that started. I mean it's obviously there's a
Speaker 2: lot of complicated pieces of that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, this is not topical.
Speaker 3: But this is I said it wasn't topical.
Speaker 2: This is interesting interesting. I don't usually talk just about myself.
Speaker 2: Of course, I love doing it. It's great, very enjoyable
Speaker 2: to me to just talk about how cool I am
Speaker 2: and all the great stuff I've done.
Speaker 3: Well, I've been wanting to piece these bits together.
Speaker 1: Does it make Is it making any sense?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's making a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: I've had people come up to me and be like,
Speaker 2: you know when we've done events and stuff and say
Speaker 2: like how do I how would I do what you've done?
Speaker 2: Or like what like do you have any advice? And
Speaker 2: I'm kind of like, actually, like I would only have
Speaker 2: the shittiest advice that I would never give anybody, Like
Speaker 2: definitely wouldn't tell anybody to do what I did, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: drop out, don't go to any school. Just drop out
Speaker 2: of school as soon as you can and fuck around
Speaker 2: with whatever you enjoy and he'll probably get successful doing
Speaker 2: it or whatever, you know. But like it is like
Speaker 2: a very strange thing. By the way, I think I
Speaker 2: should clarify here because I said it before. My mother
Speaker 2: is a school teacher. My father sold snack foods. That
Speaker 2: was his main job. He literally had a van that
Speaker 2: he would drive around. He like distributed snack foods to
Speaker 2: like local delis and like corner stores. Like I would
Speaker 2: not say it was a large business. Think he made
Speaker 2: less money than my mother, who was a school teacher.
Speaker 2: So like very aggressively middle class parents, like aggressively middle
Speaker 2: class existence.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like Tucker Carlton, for instance, heir to the I believe,
Speaker 2: like the Swanson Chicken fortune or something right, Like Tucker
Speaker 2: Carlson could do whatever he wanted and never worry.
Speaker 1: About the consequence.
Speaker 2: It's like like Spike Jones, very talented guy, but also
Speaker 2: like I'm pretty sureless like the heir to like the
Speaker 2: Spiegel fortune, and like remember the Spiegel catalog. I don't
Speaker 2: know if you do, but anyhow, I'm pretty sure that's
Speaker 2: his family. By the way, I'm not saying I'm Tucker
Speaker 2: Carlson or Spike Jones level. They are just the first
Speaker 2: two that popped into my mind. Nobody in my family
Speaker 2: was a journalist. Nobody in my family made music except
Speaker 2: for my brother, but he made like indie rock and
Speaker 2: he still makes music. But it wasn't like there was
Speaker 2: some thing like this is the family business or like
Speaker 2: you're rich, so don't worry.
Speaker 3: And it doesn't even have to be that. It's just
Speaker 3: having this the money right, right, you don't have to
Speaker 3: want to do the exact same thing that your parents
Speaker 3: did to get a leg up if you have.
Speaker 2: Right, No, no, no, I mean yeah, we didn't have.
Speaker 2: In fact, like my parents talk to me all the time.
Speaker 2: They tell us all the time about how we were
Speaker 2: we like put them in debt and you know, like
Speaker 2: they had to support us for longer because we didn't
Speaker 2: have like you know, we didn't go to college and
Speaker 2: we didn't have I was like, well, we didn't go
Speaker 2: to college, Like so that saved you some money, right,
Speaker 2: like for sure, like you know, but like they are like, oh,
Speaker 2: we have so much debt because of you too, which
Speaker 2: is like actually very rude because like I didn't tell
Speaker 2: them to be parents, Like that's not my fault, Like
Speaker 2: I wasn't in sharp. They're like all the time, they're like,
Speaker 2: oh you were, say you were impossible, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: I was nine, Like I wasn't in charge. I don't
Speaker 2: know why you let me make decisions. Like Laura and
Speaker 2: I have talked about this. She was the first person
Speaker 2: who was like, you know, it's pretty weird actually how
Speaker 2: your parents like blame you for like not going to
Speaker 2: school when like, for sure, like that was their job
Speaker 2: to deal with, like they needed to deal with that,
Speaker 2: you know, And I see it now like Zeldason days
Speaker 2: is like I don't want to go, and I'm like I.
Speaker 1: Get it, I get it, but you're fucking going.
Speaker 2: You're going to school, Like it sucks sometimes to get
Speaker 2: up and go, but you just got to do it.
Speaker 2: Like I definitely see very clearly, like the things that
Speaker 2: you're supposed to do that are hard as a parent
Speaker 2: or whatever.
Speaker 1: Not to say I'm a good parent or perfect parent rather,
Speaker 1: but anyhow, fucking so. Yeah, So I didn't come from
Speaker 1: money and I have a silver spoon in my mouth.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I was like we were broke or anything.
Speaker 1: We weren't.
Speaker 2: People are way worse off than my parents were. You know,
Speaker 2: and I can't look at it and not go I'm
Speaker 2: like a tall white guy, a natural fit in a
Speaker 2: lot of environments for like who's the boss supposed to be? Right,
Speaker 2: like just in the modern era where we are all
Speaker 2: hopefully I was trying to think more about shit like that.
Speaker 2: It of course is like a factor, but it never
Speaker 2: occurred to me at the time. I wasn't like, wow,
Speaker 2: I should because because the thing is like I usually
Speaker 2: end up in rooms with people who are way better
Speaker 2: on paper than I am, like most of the rooms
Speaker 2: I end up in to this day. And this is
Speaker 2: interesting but also like very weird for me, as like
Speaker 2: people who are really well educated and do come from
Speaker 2: money and have had like all of the advantages and
Speaker 2: and I don't begrudge that or anything. It's just it's
Speaker 2: very weird to me because I don't feel like those.
Speaker 2: I'm not part of that club.
Speaker 1: Like I'm not.
Speaker 2: I didn't go to a good school, I don't have
Speaker 2: a great network, you know, my family doesn't have money.
Speaker 2: And there was definitely no guarantee or not even close
Speaker 2: to it.
Speaker 1: There was.
Speaker 2: Actually all of the guarantees based on my schooling and
Speaker 2: stuff were sort of like you're going to fail in
Speaker 2: like a hundred different ways in life and be like
Speaker 2: really fucked up because of it. And so I think
Speaker 2: about that, you know, quite a bit, especially when I'm
Speaker 2: like talking to people about things that I feel like I.
Speaker 1: Shouldn't know about, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not like gonna say I have imposter
Speaker 2: syndrome or whatever, like, because I know I'm an impostor.
Speaker 1: I don't. It's not a syndrome. It's real.
Speaker 2: But you know, but rooms like now, sometimes I'm like
Speaker 2: looking at spreadsheets of insane like I'm looking like a
Speaker 2: P and L and I'm like, why do I even
Speaker 2: know what a P and L is? Like I'm a
Speaker 2: fucking high school dropout.
Speaker 1: Anyhow.
Speaker 2: Just goes to show, you know, if you follow your
Speaker 2: passions and you work hard enough, amazing things can occur.
Speaker 1: I disagree with that just because you and I have
Speaker 1: like such It's so interesting to hear you say this because
Speaker 1: you and I have very similar My mom.
Speaker 3: Was a teacher, my dad was a chid Gee. Guy,
Speaker 3: I'm sharing about myself.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, right, that's right.
Speaker 3: I love the mystery of Jenna and here we go.
Speaker 1: We were like very middle class and I also went
Speaker 1: into juggle.
Speaker 3: But I was not tall and I'm not a man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I am nowhere. You're as successful as.
Speaker 2: You are, Jenna. That is the only quality that I have.
Speaker 2: That was it just my tallness and being a man.
Speaker 2: And no, I mean, look, that's what I'm saying, is
Speaker 2: it's a I don't want to say its a fluke.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a fluke. I don't think it's luck.
Speaker 2: Although if I believed in luck, I might say, Wow,
Speaker 2: I've been really lucky.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's luck either. But it almost sounds
Speaker 3: to me And I'm only just hearing all this stuff
Speaker 3: for the first time. You're just telling me this for
Speaker 3: the first time.
Speaker 1: What's your review? We've never talked about this at all before.
Speaker 3: And I'm like absolutely looking at it through the lens
Speaker 3: of me and having like, I mean, my major disability
Speaker 3: in life, or my major adversity in life is insane
Speaker 3: neuroticism and anxiety. And it almost sounds like the lack
Speaker 3: of concern for what could go wrong, Yes, five years
Speaker 3: down the line, ten years, what am I going to
Speaker 3: be doing in twenty years? The lack of like fear
Speaker 3: of that and like concern it sounds like helped you
Speaker 3: focus on what you really wanted to get good at
Speaker 3: and that and you got good at it.
Speaker 1: You know, no, but you're right.
Speaker 2: But here's the interesting thing, the flip side of that,
Speaker 2: and this is like to my detriment, the thing with
Speaker 2: me is I have two qualities that that I believe,
Speaker 2: like to your point that the thing you're talking about
Speaker 2: can be amazing and helpful, but are also like wildly destructive.
Speaker 2: One is like any problem at all, think of anything,
Speaker 2: doesn't matter if it's small, like this door knob is broken,
Speaker 2: or let's start a media business and raise ten million dollars,
Speaker 2: like I'll go, why, well, like why couldn't I? Like
Speaker 2: why couldn't I? I have a tendency to go. I
Speaker 2: would describe it as like I would say optimism, but
Speaker 2: it's probably not that it's something else where. I'll just
Speaker 2: my thinking is in any situation like, well, why couldn't
Speaker 2: it work? I think a lot of people, or it
Speaker 2: is a very natural thing to go like here are
Speaker 2: all the ways it And by the way, I actually
Speaker 2: can be very negative about stuff. I can actually be
Speaker 2: very critical of things. But like when it comes to
Speaker 2: like a thing I want to do, or think I
Speaker 2: can do. My immediate thought is like, well why can
Speaker 2: I or why shouldn't I be able to, which is
Speaker 2: like obviously built up over years of like not just
Speaker 2: because I've done it, but it is just my mode.
Speaker 2: It is like if it's broken, why can't it be fixed?
Speaker 2: Like if it isn't done, why couldn't I do it?
Speaker 2: If it's like, why couldn't it be me? And this
Speaker 2: is I'm not saying it's to sound like a jerk
Speaker 2: or egotistical or whatever. And I'm not saying it's even
Speaker 2: a great quality because it means that sometimes I do
Speaker 2: things that are like really don't end up that great
Speaker 2: and little things in big things, you know, like the
Speaker 2: other day I installed a microwave, but I had never
Speaker 2: done that before, and like, you know, there was a
Speaker 2: period during it and I'm still like every day I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: it's still hanging there, like it's still on the wall, like,
Speaker 2: but there was a period in the middle of it
Speaker 2: where I was like I'm in over my head, like
Speaker 2: I don't actually know how to finish this thing, And
Speaker 2: then even bigger things like where I'm like fuck this,
Speaker 2: I'm quitting this job and I'll go start my own thing,
Speaker 2: and like, who cares?
Speaker 1: Who cares how well I'm being paid? Who cares that?
Speaker 2: Like I would be on Easy Street for the rest
Speaker 2: of my life if I just stayed here and said, Okay,
Speaker 2: whatever you guys want to do what, I'm fine with.
Speaker 2: But instead I'm like, fuck this, I'm gonna build my
Speaker 2: own thing, or I'm gonna make my own way, or
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do it the way I want to do it,
Speaker 2: and that can be you know, that can have like
Speaker 2: real world consequences. And then I'm like, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: just very impulsive, Like I'm just very prone to just
Speaker 2: do a thing, not just even the processing of like
Speaker 2: why not.
Speaker 3: I think these things are positives. They could go bad,
Speaker 3: and I'm sure they have at different points, but overall,
Speaker 3: it sounds like it sounds like a good way to
Speaker 3: think about things that you want to do.
Speaker 2: I did an interview with Kasey Nystad, who we should
Speaker 2: have on the show. I had him on my own podcast,
Speaker 2: and he's also a high school dropout. We're I think
Speaker 2: we're about the same age or very close in age.
Speaker 2: He's one of the few people I've met who's had
Speaker 2: a very similar life experience to my and where I mean.
Speaker 2: I think he's way way more successful than I am.
Speaker 2: But I haven't met that many people who are like
Speaker 2: nothing should have worked out, really, but like somehow I
Speaker 2: just like forced it to work.
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's why, Like I have no good.
Speaker 2: Advice to give anybody, because none haven't made any sense,
Speaker 2: and yet here we.
Speaker 3: Are it made perfect sense. And I do think there
Speaker 3: is good advice. You don't have to like form the words.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that's interesting. I'll be able to listen back to.
Speaker 3: This and be like, wait, by example, Yeah, I'm.
Speaker 1: Leading by example. What is the example? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Just fucking do it. Just go for it. Just do
Speaker 1: it is my thing.
Speaker 2: Okay, my motto which I invented, you came up with that,
Speaker 2: I came up with, just do it. If you've heard
Speaker 2: it anywhere else, that's mine and they owe me money.
Speaker 2: We didn't even talk about my man Tucker Carlson, you know,
Speaker 2: and my boy.
Speaker 3: Don, Like I was going to tell you. In a
Speaker 3: meeting yesterday, I asked if anybody had any leads on
Speaker 3: people who would be good to talk about Tucker Carlson,
Speaker 3: And I said Tucker Max Carlson. Because my something some
Speaker 3: wires wrong.
Speaker 1: That's a brain.
Speaker 3: And I had been talking about Tucker Max earlier that day.
Speaker 2: The best thing I saw about the whole thing. Now,
Speaker 2: I mean, we're not we can't get into it. But
Speaker 2: Tucker Carlson and Don Lemon were both fired on the
Speaker 2: same day, and somebody tweeted like they're doing a podcast
Speaker 2: and it like, honestly would be an amazing, amazing podcast
Speaker 2: that I would love to listen to.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe not love to listen to.
Speaker 2: I mean, fuck Tucker Carlson to hell, is my stat
Speaker 2: my stance on Tucker Carlson. So yeah, anyhow, maybe he'll
Speaker 2: go back to the chicken ranch or farm or whatever
Speaker 2: whatever they have the chickens.
Speaker 1: Like the factory.
Speaker 2: I guess maybe he'll go back to wherever they make
Speaker 2: Animal X for swans and animal X.
Speaker 1: We talked about animal AX, right. No, oh, it's my
Speaker 1: favorite urban legend, Jenna. Have we talked about animal X?
Speaker 2: No? This way I heard the story is you remember
Speaker 2: when Kentucky Fried Chicken changed their name officially to KFC.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The the urban legend was they had to change their
Speaker 2: name so it didn't the word chicken because they use
Speaker 2: animal which is known as animal X. That is like
Speaker 2: a headless chicken with six wings. That that's how they
Speaker 2: produce all of their chicken in like some labs somewhere
Speaker 2: where they've got there's like that grown non chicken things
Speaker 2: and they're not legally allowed to call them chicken anyhow,
Speaker 2: great fucking story. No, it's a great it's a great story.
Speaker 2: Whatever brain came up with that particular urban legend is
Speaker 2: just an absolute fucking narrative.
Speaker 1: Genius.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like a great movie. And fried chicken
Speaker 3: is my favorite food in the world, number one with
Speaker 3: a bullet. And I would eat animal X.
Speaker 2: You know, I try not to eat animals, but chicken
Speaker 2: is really good. I mean, I hate to hate to
Speaker 2: say it, I just do. I do think chicken tastes
Speaker 2: really good. I'm sorry, what, Jenna, why are you? What
Speaker 2: is going on?
Speaker 3: Like chicken?
Speaker 1: You don't like chicken? Are you vegetarian?
Speaker 3: I beef outing anything else? And I only do it
Speaker 3: because I need protein.
Speaker 2: You're like sick, you're sick from that you have chicken.
Speaker 2: You should not look into how they produce like it's
Speaker 2: not great, man, it's not a lot better.
Speaker 3: It's all bad. It's all about.
Speaker 2: Well that is the show for this week. I guess,
Speaker 2: like what happened is is Lyrah quizmy on my career.
Speaker 2: Now everybody knows everything. Now I can't write my book.
Speaker 3: I think this was a great pitch for your book.
Speaker 2: I actually had an agent at one point. He was like,
Speaker 2: you should write a This sounds really egotistical. She was like,
Speaker 2: you should write like an autobiography, like your life's interesting.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know, like is it like I
Speaker 2: was like, I'm not sure there's that much there. But
Speaker 2: then I have thought about it. Maybe someday I'll write
Speaker 2: a book.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: You know who ghost writes memoirs?
Speaker 1: Who?
Speaker 3: Tucker Max?
Speaker 1: Tucker Maxwell, I will not be.
Speaker 3: Working very successful. He did, Tiffany hattishes, he does all
Speaker 3: the celebrity members.
Speaker 1: Maybe I should talk to Tucker Max.
Speaker 3: Should talk to Tucker Max.
Speaker 1: I forget his claim to fame. He's like a misogynist
Speaker 1: or I hope they serve beer in hell. Oh right, right.
Speaker 2: He was like I'm a bad guy. Me and my
Speaker 2: bros Are bad or something. It was like that kind
Speaker 2: of book, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I ate that ship really love. I thought
Speaker 3: he was the funniest guy on the planet.
Speaker 1: Is he like a pooah guy?
Speaker 3: Is he like a no, No, he's like I mean,
Speaker 3: he's just a nact. I mean, he's just you know whatever.
Speaker 3: He's a conventionally handsome, rat bro looking guy, Like he
Speaker 3: didn't have any pua element to him. He just was like,
Speaker 3: they come to me thing.
Speaker 1: I've always wondered what it'd be like to be very handsome.
Speaker 1: That would be very cool. I think I.
Speaker 3: Disagree with the handsome assessment of this guy.
Speaker 2: Really, I think conventionally no, No, We've had this conversation before.
Speaker 2: There are like people who think Adam Driver is handsome,
Speaker 2: But in the real world, if you met Adam Driver,
Speaker 2: most people, if Adam Driver was an Adam Driver, most
Speaker 2: people would be like, that guy is a weird creep.
Speaker 2: I do not think he's handsome, Whereas like most people
Speaker 2: would look like Chris Hemsworth and be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: that dude's a hunk.
Speaker 3: So anyhow, you know, your talent and personality or that's right,
Speaker 3: that's right, incredibly huge factors attractiveness.
Speaker 2: My factor has been just being able to talk people
Speaker 2: to death, just so just wear them down, tell them that.
Speaker 3: They're gonna die for the answers, and they're like, well,
Speaker 3: I only have six months to live. I should see
Speaker 3: what happened.
Speaker 2: Might as well just hang out with this guy right
Speaker 2: here anyhow. Okay, So we'll be back next week with
Speaker 2: more what future, and maybe maybe our guests won't cancel
Speaker 2: on us and we won't have to do yet another
Speaker 2: episode where I tell my life story, though there's a
Speaker 2: lot I think there are a lot of tales.
Speaker 3: I like the idea of doing it, doing your same
Speaker 3: life story every week, but you just are forced to
Speaker 3: get more and more in depth, more just.
Speaker 2: More detail on specific moments, just like meetings that I
Speaker 2: had with people, or phone calls that I our long
Speaker 2: phone calls. Well, anyhow, So that's that's it, and we'll
Speaker 2: be back next weekend as always. I guess I suppose
Speaker 2: I wish you and your family the very best, but
Speaker 2: I don't know you or your family. So is it
Speaker 2: worth it? Are you worth it? Think about that? Stew
Speaker 2: on that until the next episode, Even under the w