1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: It happened somewhere else a while ago, and also somewhere 2 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: else now ish several days ago. What a great title 3 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 1: for a show. I love, I love how snappy and 4 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: remember and memorable. That is that look, we can we 5 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: we can, we can go and we can go into it. 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: A tiny bit of pulling back the curtain, which is 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 1: that you can't do too many good intros because if 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: you do too many good intros, and everyone expects you 9 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: to constantly have a good intro, So every once in 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: a while you have to just make you have You 11 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: have to lower the overall quality of the intro so 12 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: that when you are truly desperate, have just been dragged 13 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: out of bed at like three am and you have 14 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: to record a podcast, just sort of a tonal noises 15 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: will be considered normal. That's why I script all my intros. 16 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: But I'm just I'm just I'm just built. Yea different 17 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: is that could happen here? What are we what are 18 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: we doing here today? Chris um? We are talking about Well, actually, 19 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: admittedly we we had planned this episode before this happens. Yeah, 20 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: we were on this episode before the referendum in Cuba 21 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: about the new family code. But yeah, we're we're gonna 22 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: be talking about the kind of bleak but sort of 23 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: gets better history of homosexuality in Cuba and how things 24 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: went from very bad to getting a lot better, and 25 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: then also how a lot of American leftists like picked 26 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: up a version of the history of this that is 27 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: just sort of nonsense. And here here with us talk 28 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: about this is Andre's Petira, who is well doing doing 29 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: many things, one of which is studying for PhD in 30 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: Latin American history at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. On 31 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: today's Welcome to the show. Oh, thanks so much for 32 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: having me. It's great to be here. Yeah, like I'm 33 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: excarted to talk to you about this. So okay, I 34 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: guess the the place that I want to start is 35 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: I want to go back to the sixties and I 36 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,399 Speaker 1: want to go back to something that I I don't 37 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: think a lot of people understand very well in terms 38 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: of what happened in I just happened in various ways 39 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: over a lot of sort of these new sort of 40 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: revolutionary socialist states, which is that you get this attempt 41 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: to like form of like a sort of like like 42 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: a new revolutionary subject. Sometimes it's it's like, I mean, 43 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,399 Speaker 1: the Soviet one was like the new Man. They're they're 44 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: sort of different versions of this across there's sort of 45 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: various social revolutionary states. I guess I wanted to ask 46 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: you to talk about how this kind of got really 47 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: really homophobic in Cuba, like pretty quickly. Yeah, so, I 48 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: mean and and and one of the interesting parts about 49 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: the story in Cuba is that it actually is look 50 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: in part important from the USSR and ideas in the USSR. 51 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: And that's actually one of the connections which in the 52 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: literature isn't in the academic literature at least isn't always 53 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: that well explored because Cuban is tends to be very insloyed. 54 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: We don't really tend to learn Russian. I'm I'm kind 55 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: of crazy. I actually am learning Russian, but but no, 56 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,119 Speaker 1: so so um. You know, there was obviously lots of homophobia, 57 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: lots of you know, all like lots of bigotry against 58 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: LGBT people before nineteen fifty nine, not unlike the United 59 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: States of the nineteen fifties, like you could live privately 60 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: or maybe in certain safe spaces, you could live a 61 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: kind of okay life, but you know, it was definitely 62 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: very marginalized position lots of biggotry and lots of personal 63 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: danger in addition to a lack of basic rights. Um. 64 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: After nineteen fifty nine, Uh, you know, you have this jettison, 65 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: jettison ing of the Catholic Church and kind of religious 66 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: reasons for being being bigoted, with the coming of the revolution, 67 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: which is a secular communist revolution. Um. But what what 68 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: ends up happening is they And this is something that 69 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: Abel Sierra Mario's recent book on on U on these policies, 70 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: talks about a lot. Is this kind of attempt to 71 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: remake human men into the man that's needed for this 72 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: communist society in the future. And as part of this, 73 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: they engage in a sort of social hygiene. We don't 74 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: want people who are lazy, we don't want people who 75 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: are degenerate, but you know, bourgeois degeneracy by you know, 76 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And within this, you know a 77 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: persecution of people who are seen as either out, either 78 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: as gay or at least as soft and they need 79 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: to be made into real macho men for the revolution. 80 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: And um, this started out in a very series of 81 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: isolated things. Right. You would have like Vihitio Pinieta was 82 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: who was a dramaturge. He was um, he was jailed, uh, 83 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: and he basically he was being targeted because people wanted 84 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: his house, and so if he was jailed and his 85 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: belongings were separated from him, then like someone could get 86 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: to keep his apartment. Like that seems to be why 87 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: he was originally targeted. And he was detained twice for 88 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: basically walking while gay. That's how basically what the incident 89 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: boils down to. He was walking effeminately in people and 90 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: he was detained by police, and he was free because 91 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: he had like he was an important person. He was 92 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: you know, he had some protections. But then as the 93 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: decade rolls on, as the nineteen sixties rolled on, that's like, 94 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: that's nineteen sixty one year after the revolution. Nine sixty five, 95 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: you have the creation of a series of forced labor 96 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: camps and there's not really any way to get around that. Um. 97 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: We don't know exactly how many were sent there, um, 98 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: but it seems to be in the thousands, maybe tens 99 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: of thousands. We again, we don't know because the government 100 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: hasn't the class by that information. So it's still a conjecture. 101 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: But it's not because people don't want to investigate the details. Um. 102 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: And these are thousands and thousands of people who are 103 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: being set for all sorts of reasons. Jehovah's witnesses, um uh, 104 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: people who listened to rock, people who are seeing as 105 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: hippies uh lvi spresleanos so Elvis presleyan's so people who 106 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: listened to Elvis Presley because that was seen as too 107 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: effeminate and too yankee. Um and and so they were 108 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: sent to the camps and to forced labor. But the 109 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: camps weren't just about forced labor. They were about remaking 110 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: through labor, these men into real men, because hard labor, 111 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: proletarian labor, would you know, remake their spirits and their 112 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: ethics and a ha ha. I mean it's kind of 113 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: not unlike what we're seeing in the nineteen sixties in China. 114 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a very explicit like 115 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: one one of the thing well yeah, well one of 116 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: the things that is just going on from the culture revolution. Also, yeah, 117 00:06:58,160 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: it's like that they had that they had this sort 118 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: of re education through labor. The thing that starts and 119 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: it gets it doesn't. Yeah, Like I've seen conflicting accounts 120 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: of the extent to which like people were directly targeted 121 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: for being gay. I it definitely did happen, And there's 122 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: a yeah, and you get a lot of this sort 123 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: of same thing of like these people are like spiritually 124 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: un pere and like they have to be like re 125 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: educated and they have to be sort of like turned 126 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: into like proper like subjection. There's a lot of the 127 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: especially like there's a lot of sort of like there's 128 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people like being forced to hold science 129 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: and say sodomite and ship yeah, which is a funnily enough. 130 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: And the weird part about this is that like in 131 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: the Chinese case, so the cultural revolution is like not 132 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: a great time to be gay, but there's also this thing. 133 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: There's this thing kind of like it's kind of like 134 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: like Nies Berlin, where like there are there is some 135 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: really bad stuff that happens, but there's also this sort 136 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: of like there's a kind of general political chaos so 137 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: you can get away with some stuff too that there's 138 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: actually there's another and pain in China in starts about 139 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three. Yeah, it's called the Strike Hard Campaign. 140 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: Interestingly that there's there's actually two Strike Hard campaign So 141 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: there's one of the eighties that's supposed to be this 142 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: campaign against like crime and stuff, and so like they 143 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: target a bunch of people who are like supposed to 144 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: be like social criminals, and then that winds up being 145 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: a lot of like there's just there are just mass 146 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: arrest of gay people. They're in prison for a very 147 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: very long time. Um yeah under Although that one's also 148 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: interesting because it's like you have very similar kind of reasoning, 149 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: but it's like but it's in this sort of like 150 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: dang like kind of revolutionary like phase where it's like 151 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: instead of being instead of being a danger to the revolution, 152 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: they're like sort of a danger to like traditional Chinese values, 153 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: which is interesting and bleak. Yeah, well, because like this 154 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: is one of the one of things happens in China, 155 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: writes it like in in you know there there is 156 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: an attempt to sort of do more egalitarian like gender 157 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: relations during the Drean culture revolution between the sort of 158 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: like revolutionary period and then when Dane takes power, part 159 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: of this thing is like, no, we're going back to 160 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: traditional gender relations. All of this egalitarian stuff was a mistake, 161 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: and like this is part this is part of whether 162 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: when child policy comes from But then also you get 163 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: a really homophobic crackdown in like eighty three, like like 164 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: three or four years after sort of like he's actually 165 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: weirdly almost exactly the same time that like the real 166 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: sort of market reforms hit like like it's it's it's 167 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: like a year later is when the package that's sort 168 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: of like really brings the market back to try to happen. 169 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: Is I don't. It's it's a very weird. Yeah, we 170 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: we have gotten gotten very off topic, but it's it's 171 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: a very weird and interesting sort of like social flip 172 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 1: that happens. Yeah, I'm sure, and that definitely makes me 173 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: want to read more about like China during this period. Yeah, well, 174 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting, like like the over thing that 175 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: you're talking about earlier, that is interested, Like it's so 176 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: much to me as I've talked to like people from 177 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: Vietnam and they have a very similar story about like 178 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: like I mean there was homophobia before, but they have 179 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: a very similar story to the Cuban story about how 180 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: like there is this sort of importation of like Soviet 181 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: homophobia and how that made everything like when then this 182 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: starts out between the eighties and it gets just significantly worse. Yeah, No, 183 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: it's uh and in Cuba, Um, what's it called? Like 184 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: the whole idea that this is a form of bourgeois 185 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: degeneracy and the gayness gayness is specifically bourgeois is like 186 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: was really surprising to me as I dug into this, 187 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: Like there's comics I in this thing I wrote, I 188 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: include a couple of them, but it's basically like it's 189 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: put up there with wanting to be in so leave 190 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: it at like free society in the West, and so 191 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: the West is it's like it's almost like a factionary 192 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it is reaction, but I mean it's like 193 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: it's it's like a very weird, weird mirror of like 194 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: far right discourse because it's like the degeneracy of the West. Meanwhile, 195 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: here we have masculine values. I mean, did you even 196 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: see that type of rhetoric with We were talking about 197 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,719 Speaker 1: Alexander Dugan recently and he he is. I suppose there's 198 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: a lot of that type of stuff as as as 199 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: well as the one who is you know, a fascist 200 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: writer who's pulled on some of the national Bolshevik type 201 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: stuff before. Um, yeah, you can attack attack gayness as 202 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: it's like a sign of liberalism in the West as 203 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: like this like almost like a bourgeois tendency. Yeah, I forget, 204 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: I forget who it was. There was someone on Twitter 205 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: who was talking about there's like it's it's very interesting 206 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: thing like yeah like in in like in the US, 207 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: like I don't know, like being like for a very 208 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: very long time. It's so kind of now you get 209 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: this versus like like being gay, like is is you know, 210 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: like being queer as a sign of like you're a 211 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: communist and you're like like a degenerate communistic et cetera. 212 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: And then you go to like Vietnam and it's like, oh, yeah, 213 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: this person is gay there. They're they're they're degenerate Western 214 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: like kind of revolutionary, and it's it's it's it's like 215 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,479 Speaker 1: it's always the same. The actual sort of like homophobic 216 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: thing is the same. It's just like the signs are 217 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: flipped of like what the other is and who you 218 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: can accuse them most sort of having the values of 219 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: I wonder if the unifying factor here is is and 220 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: this is something I'm thinking of a lot, a lot 221 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: because of Other's book, which is that I mean greatness 222 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: as a disease, Yeah, an illness and so like that, 223 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: so it allows you to glump onto it anything you 224 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: don't like from your own ideological prism. So I also 225 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: wonder a lot about how nationalism plays into it, because 226 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that happens in a lot 227 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: of these sort of revolutionary projects is like, yeah, like 228 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: the sort of ideal of the new man is sort 229 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: of like a communist thing, but it's also like very 230 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: specifically something that you get with like with nationalist revolutions, 231 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: where it's like, well, okay, so we like we we 232 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: we have to like like part of part of it, 233 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: like the basis of our national identity is like we 234 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: are these like incredibly sort of masculine hard man or whatever. 235 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 1: And then this like, I don't know, it strikes me. 236 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: It strikes me as interesting that like the further that 237 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: sort of nationalism becomes entangled in like these revolutionary projects, 238 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: like the more you start to see this kind of stuff. Yeah, 239 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: and and definitely part of this is nationalism because it's 240 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: it's not just homophobia in Cuba in this context in 241 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: the sixties, it's not just homophobia for the sake of homophobia. 242 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: So there is that too, but it's it's also that 243 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: I don't think Fiddel Castro is entirely lying when he 244 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: says that it was part of the need to mobilize 245 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: as much of society as possible for the economy. What's 246 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: happening in Cuba in the nineteen sixties is basically the 247 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: economy is going into a meltdown. Um. The economic policies 248 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: that they're enacting have not been working. They've burned through 249 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: any surplus they had in nine including good will surpluses 250 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: and a couple of respects. Uh. And I think that 251 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: like some people point to like the new Man and 252 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: people will work for moral incentives, not material incentives, as 253 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: just this naive thing. And then I think the most 254 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: convincing counter argument is they didn't have anything else to 255 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: incentivize people. Yeah, people, people mate this this this is 256 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: a this is like basically there's an identical like argument 257 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: that you get about the culture Revolution, where like you 258 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: start to see these like incentives are like maw will 259 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: like give you a mango or something, or like you 260 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: have these like pins that you get and and like 261 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: it it's it could like yeah, it's it's it's very 262 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: it's like the same thing of like you have these 263 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: rewards that are sort of like, yeah, there's sort of 264 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: like spiritual almost or sort of like a spiritual ideological 265 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: rewards and then eventually like kind of just stops working 266 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: because it turns out that's not actually a very good 267 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: basis for economic system. Do you guys know the old 268 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: joke about check Givada when he was given a sign 269 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: to become the Minister of the banks. I don't know 270 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: the joke. I know the thing about like he was 271 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: my my my vague memory is like the story that 272 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: I heard was like he signed his name like really 273 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: sloppy on it because he was piste off that like 274 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: he had to put his face on money or something. 275 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: But I have no idea that's that's that's that part's 276 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: actually true. He did. He hated money so much he 277 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: refused to sign his actual name. He just signed his 278 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: nickname as like just to show his disdain for for 279 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: for economics. But at a meeting that the old jocos 280 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: And this is something that Chad apparently like to tell 281 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: as well, even if it's not necessarily true that at 282 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: the meeting where they were deciding who's going to become 283 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: the minister of what, uh they said, uh, who here 284 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: is an economist and he raises his hand and everyone 285 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: goes to Chay. But you're a doctor, You're not an economist. 286 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: Is this Oh I thought you asked for a communists 287 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: like so yeah, no, I mean chair and and I 288 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: think I've heard arguments. I'm not an expert on chat, 289 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: but I've heard that he was actually pretty heavily influenced 290 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: by China, really compared to the U. S. S. R. 291 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: Helan closes in China. Yeah, that actually that actually gets 292 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: and make I think I think, I guess that kind 293 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: of makes sense given his sort of like like the 294 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: way his military strategy seems to have worked, which is 295 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: very very much like a lot closer to sort of 296 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: like MAOIs strategy than Wow, okay, I mean, I'm gonna 297 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: put Soviet strategy and quotation marks because oh my god, 298 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: is there like the I have. I have a very negative, 299 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: a very dim view of of sort of the military 300 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: strategy of people who are of like guerrilla organizations who 301 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: are taking their military trying directly from the Soviet Union. 302 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: It's a lot of like We're gonna build up one giant, 303 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: I mean in a place and one day they're going 304 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: to roll into the capital and it's like this okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, 305 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: that make that makes sense? Um, okay, yeah, raining, raining 306 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: myself in a little bit. We have these basically labor 307 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: camps that gay people are getting put into. We have 308 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: kind of a material basis for it, which is and 309 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: this is one of the things that like people actually 310 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: use as a defense of sort of like like, well, 311 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: we had to put these people in these camps because 312 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: of our matrial conditions, which I think, like I feel 313 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: like that makes it worse. Like I feel like the 314 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: fact that there's a there's a material basis for your 315 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: homophobia like makes it harder to get rid of and 316 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: makes it like a more entrenched part of the system, 317 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: which I don't know, bizarre defense to me. But yeah, 318 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: can we talk a bit about like because like how 319 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: how did this actually end and to what extent did 320 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: it end? And did it sort of like have this 321 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: like half life afterwards? Sure? So, so these last for 322 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: a couple of years. This is not like a flash 323 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: in the pan like oops are bad kind of like 324 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: you know, six months in This is like a series 325 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: of multiple work camps across the province of Come a Way, 326 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: which is in central Cuba, and they last for three 327 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: years and there's pushback during this period, domestic pushback, international pushback, 328 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: like people have been complaining about it for exactly what 329 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: the definitive thing that got them the few mock closed 330 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: specifically close sort of. The UNIDA is mely that is 331 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: the au Ala rugs showing military units to aid production. 332 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: So the Umak themselves, which are open from nine sixty eight, 333 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: they do eventually get close and sixty eight people are freeding, 334 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: you know, like you know, the camps are closed and 335 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: uh people are sent home and um. There are varying stories. 336 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: I have looked through like trade tried to trace as 337 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: many stories as I can get um uh and even 338 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: even people who like we're participants have different stories. So 339 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: like I remember Carlos Frankie, who was one of a 340 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: position figure. He has one story that centers himself in 341 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 1: the closure. Other stories say that it was the international pressure. 342 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: Other stories say that it was the Right Writers and 343 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: Artists Union, the official one, the state one, the NIAC, 344 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: which filed enough complaints and that convinced Fidel to get 345 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: it closed down. UM. That anecdote is actually from Maddie 346 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: Glass Iglesias Dad Josse Glesias, who wrote about Yeah his grandfather, 347 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: his grand his communist grandfather. Um. But he who actally 348 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: who wrote a book about the six It's he's an 349 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: interesting guy. But anyway, so the camps get closed one 350 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: way or another, and I don't think we're gonna ever 351 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: know the definitive answer until like there's actually classification. But 352 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: they're closed. But the thing is um. While the camps 353 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: get closed, we have reports from different people, including some 354 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: of the sources that are used as apologia for the 355 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: MOP saying wait wait wait. Social disgrace units keep existing 356 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: well into the early nineteen seventies, and so we do 357 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 1: have sporadic reports of things like this happening where seminarists 358 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: are sense to religious people for for being atheists, are 359 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: certain for not being atheists. Uh, you know, gay people 360 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: are being sent other people mighty one ados, So people 361 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: who spoked smoke pot, you know, anyone who's seen as 362 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: like not conforming into this ideal new man you're sent 363 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: there in the labor is supposed to reform you. And 364 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: that's that's a key part of this. It's not just 365 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: as punishment's labor as ideological reform. There's even one of 366 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: the people, some of the people in one camp say 367 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: that there was a sign that says work will make 368 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: you men Jesus. Oh no, yeah, like work will set 369 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 1: you free. Yeah, it's uh so, so the camps do 370 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: contain seem to continue and Um, it's it definitely seems 371 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: to be the case that, uh, you know, gay people 372 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: do continue to be arrested for being gay, even though 373 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: the intensity of this does die down by the nineteen seventies. 374 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: There's something pretty bad that also happens in the nineteen seventies, 375 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: but it's a slightly different project. It's not as centered 376 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: on force labor. So yeah, and I guess so the yeah, 377 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: the thing that you wrote this piece about that I 378 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: actually probably mentioned that is one of the things we're 379 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: talking about is you you wrote a very long piece 380 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: about Um called factually Based, which is about sort of 381 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: the kind of mythology that developed in the US about 382 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: like how these camps were closed and the sort of 383 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: like apology around it, and a lot of this is 384 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:20,239 Speaker 1: based on Leslie Feinberg, which is depressing in a lot. 385 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: Leslie Feinberg, people who don't know, is like one of 386 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: one of the most important like trans authors ever. UM 387 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: wrote Stone, which Blues, which is like if you've ever 388 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: been in like any sort of like queer trend scene 389 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: you probably know about or possibly have read, And she wrote, 390 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: m M, not a great account of this. Yeah, do 391 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: you want to talk a bit about what what this 392 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: was and how people have sort of used it in 393 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: different ways? Sure? So, Like for years I heard like 394 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: arguments from this book and I didn't know they were 395 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: from this I just saw people sharing online online and thinking, 396 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: where the hell are people getting this? This is not 397 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 1: this is not true, And eventually I find out that 398 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: it's It dates back to this book called Rainbow Solidarity 399 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: and Defensive Cuba by Leslie Finberg, was written mid to 400 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: late two thousand's UM. Really it's not a book, it's 401 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 1: a compilation of articles which Fineberg wrote for as part 402 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: of the Lavender and Read series for This World's Workers 403 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: World newspaper, which is like this Marciite sect which Fineberg 404 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: SMUs have been a part of. UM. Real real weirdos, 405 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: like they those people like they have positions that are 406 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: like bizarre even by the standards of like modern tankies, 407 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: like they're they're like these are people who are like 408 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: hardline on defending the DIRG in Ethiopia, which is like 409 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,719 Speaker 1: stuff that's weird enough that like most most modern like 410 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: idea like hardline ideological stalinists don't know what this they 411 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: don't even know what this is or won't defend it 412 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: because it's like because like most Ethiopian Mark Sister like 413 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: this was fucked like it's it's yeah. Also that this 414 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: is every thing about these guys. So if you know 415 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: what the PSL, the Party of Socialist Liberation, they emerged 416 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: from a split with the w w P. Yeah, because 417 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: the it was the w w P was too moderate 418 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah. My my my memory of it was 419 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: it was a split about whether whether or not you 420 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 1: should take money from North Korea. I don't know, I 421 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,719 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know if that's a percent that 422 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: that that's my memory the last time I read about it. 423 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: So these are who these guys are. Yeah, no, no, 424 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: I mean there's a reason that PSL and WWP seem 425 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: to have very similar lines. Um. So so anyway, so 426 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm I finally get this book. I ordered second hand, 427 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: so I'm not giving anyone royalties. Um and I get 428 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: the book and it starts like arguing, you know, trying 429 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: to you know, defend the track record of the revolution, 430 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: and really it's like, basically, it seems that this book 431 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: and an article that came out before any of Fineberg's articles, 432 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: an article by John Hilson in the early two thousand's, 433 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: are kind of a response to how as the kind 434 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: of like how LGBT rights were treated in the mainstream 435 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: in like the United States was shifting. There was a 436 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: like less homophobia movement towards more recognition of rights in 437 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: the two thousands. And in that context, he was Cubist 438 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: track record on LGBT rights, which is pretty pretty bad, 439 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: you know, it was getting hammered, and so they're writing 440 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: this as a response to that. And Findberg Warrens in 441 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: the introduction don't expect a criticism of Cuba in this book. 442 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: It's factually based, but you know, and I put it 443 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: in quotes factually based, but uh, you know, it's it's 444 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: factually based, but it's you know, where this is. It's 445 00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: basically meant as counter propaganda to the criticisms and the 446 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: section that everyone quotes. I mean, the book is the 447 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: book isn't that long. It things like a hundred pages. 448 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: I have it over here. Um, it's like a hundred 449 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: pages long. It's all these different articles. Um, the section 450 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: that most people quote is actually like two or three pages. 451 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: It's this very short section on the map, and uh, 452 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: Fineberg talks about the MOP and sites basically three people 453 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: to talk about it. Basically. One one of those sources 454 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: is Ignacio ramon It, who is this foreign journalist who 455 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: interviews Fidel and gave Fidel the opportunity to give these 456 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: explanations and defenses of his policies, where basically Fidel uh, basically, 457 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: Fidel defends it as a part of the necessity of 458 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: mobilizing the entire country in the face of the crisis 459 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: that it felt that was facing in the nineteen sixties 460 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: from the United States. So it needed to mobilize everyone. 461 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: And it was part of the economic mobilization. And it 462 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: was almost a favor to gay people because they didn't 463 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: go into the military because there was too much homophobia 464 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: in the military. So they almost did them a favor 465 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: by giving them sending them off to do labor that 466 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: wasn't with the military in these nice little you know, 467 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: economic productive units. And then you know, oh there was 468 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: some use, you know, there's some stuff, so we shot 469 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: them down. Um. And this is before Fidel actually admitted 470 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: that there was persecution of LGBT people in Cuba under 471 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: his watch, which comes in like interview. So this is 472 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: like his version of things right before then, and that's 473 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: what Feinberg sites. Another of the sources is Cardinal and 474 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: Nesto Cardinal, who I'm happy to expand on him. But 475 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: the short version is that in Nesto Cardinal is going 476 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,719 Speaker 1: around Cuba in nineteen seventy and ninety one for two 477 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: short trips and he's just basically writing down everything and 478 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: anything people tell him. Some of it's very critical, some 479 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: of it's very supportive. He's not actually claiming anything is factual. 480 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: He's saying, I am in Cuba. This is what people 481 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: are telling me. Make up your own minds like that 482 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: is his stense. It is presented as this, uh like, 483 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: it's not critically analyzed at all, and it's these two 484 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: separate stories. One of them is that a hundred Communist 485 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: youth members infiltrated the camps on hearing that there were 486 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: abuses there, and they wrote reports saying that there were abuses, 487 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: so the camps were shutdown. And then there's this separate story, 488 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: also source to Cardinal by Feinberg, that Fidel personally infiltrates 489 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: the camps incognito. And then there's this like guard who 490 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: was going to like cut the cord on his hammock 491 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: to wake him up and get him force him to work, 492 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: and Fidel revealed himself and and you know, almost almost 493 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: like why dost thou persecute me? Saul? A kind of deal, 494 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: like very it sounds like a very biblical story, so 495 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: it's it's a good yard, but it's not doesn't sound 496 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: very serious. And also the two stories tying to contradict 497 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: each other, Why does Fidel have to infiltrate if the 498 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: hundred Communist youth members have gone you know, or vice versa, 499 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 1: you know you don't. It's really weird, like like why 500 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: why would there be both like both of them, you 501 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: can't present both of them as true at the same time, 502 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: like they they're they're they're mutually contradictory accounts of how 503 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: this happens, very very weird, exactly, and and and in 504 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: in Cardinal they're not even presented back to back. The 505 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: hundred Communist youth members is literally a dude he saw 506 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: on the street who told him this. It's a paragraph, 507 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: and that's it. Like we don't have any other context. 508 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: The other story that Fiddel Infiltrating is shared is slight 509 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: sounds slightly more credible if you really want to believe it, 510 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: but then if you actually read into it, it's more 511 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: like it doesn't. It also doesn't water. Yeah, it's like 512 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: a guy heard from another guy. Like it's it's yeah, 513 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: he's he he's a guard. It is a guard narrating this. 514 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: But he like he talks about what he saw up 515 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: until like half into the paragraph, and then the rest 516 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: is clearly implied to be stuffed stuff he heard about 517 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: but wasn't actually present for, and find represents him as 518 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: a witness of both. So anyway, so that's that's Fineberg's 519 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: whole defense, Like, basically, Fidel had no idea that we're abuses, 520 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: even though the very existence of the camps themselves were abuses. 521 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: And then but they were shut down and everything's hunky dorry. 522 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: You know. That's that's Fineberg's defense. And then of course 523 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: the third thing is that she refers both citations to Hilson, 524 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: which I can get into a second but just I 525 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: think part of the problem is that Fineberg didn't actually 526 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: read Cardinals. Yeah, so Hilson Wilson is another activist. I'm 527 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: not sure he's LGBT and not like that that part 528 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: of melist clear run. But he was another activist. He 529 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: died very early in the two thousands, I think um 530 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: from from cancer. He uh, but he wrote an article 531 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: that cites Cardinal and cites both sections that Feinberg later 532 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: sites and not more not less. And I think what's 533 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: what happened was that Feinberg basically goes to this article 534 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: which basically makes more or less makes the kind of 535 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,479 Speaker 1: arguments that Finberg is already making in her in her 536 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: own work. But m what what when when she sees 537 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: things that seem to exculpate the Cuban government, she basically 538 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: does copy paste and a little parenthesis to give credit 539 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: to Hilson and then moves on right. She doesn't actually 540 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: read Hilson. Hilsen even like treats it a little more 541 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: cautiously than Finberg, even though not sufficiently cautiously. And I 542 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: think that that explains why and the least this is 543 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: a generous interpretation. Fineberg doesn't actually address the fact that 544 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: in her own exculputatory source there's talk of other camps 545 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: like at the time Cardinal is like I am going 546 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: to the camps. I'm visiting the camps. There are camps here, 547 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: like you know, So it doesn't it doesn't make sense 548 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: unless maybe findber didn't read the book, like just like 549 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: copied and paste and didn't really think about it, yeah, 550 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: or or just like went and found the one session 551 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: that that was useful and then just read that part yeah, 552 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: which yeah, not not a great way to do history, 553 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: as it turns out. Um, yeah, yeah, I will do 554 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: my one return to marks moment in this interview, which 555 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: is to say, ruthless critique of all that exists, things 556 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: that you generally support, because otherwise you wind up with 557 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, Oh my god, it's done the round. 558 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: This thing has been going around around and around on 559 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: the internet for years and years. Yeah. And I guess 560 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: we should also say that, like, yeah, and this is 561 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: this is the thing that happens with like any any 562 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: like every one of these, like every one of the 563 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: social countries you've been talking about, Like you will get 564 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: people who basically are like like, hey, look at this 565 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: bad thing. Uh, we're gonna but people who are like, 566 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, you get yeah, you get like Cuban 567 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: right wingers who are like also unbelievably homophobic who suddenly 568 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: like discover a passion for gay rights because hey, look 569 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: at these abuses and it's like, yeah, it's I don't know, 570 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: it sucks it. Yeah, I mean I think it genuinely 571 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: is a part of the reason why this version becomes 572 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: like a memory that like like this for these sort 573 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: of versions of the story, which like don't have are 574 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: not like really credible, like become sort of entrenched in 575 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: the sort of like socialist memory of of this period 576 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: in the US because it's like, well, okay, so so on. 577 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: On the one hand, you have a bunch of sort 578 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: of like like incredible fanatical right wingers talking about what 579 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: was going on, and then you have like, hey, here's 580 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: another story from a socialist. It's like, well, we're gonna 581 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: believe the socialist version. It's like, well, neither of these 582 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: people like not like but both of these groups like 583 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: have an incredibly clear agenda going into what they're doing, 584 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: and so you have to sort of like actually sift 585 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: through the stuff yourself, otherwise you're weird wind up with 586 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: very very weird and distorted histories. Yeah, and and people 587 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: just really want to believe it. I mean, I think 588 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: that's that's my conclusion. Like I when I was originally 589 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: researching for this, I was I was pissed, Like I 590 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: was like, this is these are just not true. How 591 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: could someone publish this? You know, it's really angry. And 592 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: I kept trying to write that like a piece or 593 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: based on that, and I keep kept stopping and like, 594 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: this is not the right approach, This is not the 595 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: right Like I kept stopping myself, and then I finally 596 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: just like try to, okay, put my shelf slf in 597 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: Fineberg's shoes. If I was you know, really loved you know, 598 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: if I was like as enamored as Fineberg was of 599 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: everyone and everything involved in the Cuban Revolution and at 600 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: the same time one a member of a persecuted group, right, 601 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, and I really want to to swear this circle, 602 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: Like and I saw something to let me do that, 603 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: I would probably also just glimb onto it and just 604 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: not really try and not think about it too much 605 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: for the same reason, right, you want you know, our 606 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: defenses are low. One, it's something we want to believe. Yeah, 607 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: this is there is an enormous amount of stuff that 608 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: just sort of people, I mean just yeah, like everyone 609 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: has a bunch of stuff that they believe because they wanted, 610 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: they want it to be true. Like it's it's not 611 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: like like we're we're we're we're we're being hard on 612 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: the socialist here, but like, I don't know, like this 613 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: is why half the people who believe Q shit believe it, right, 614 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: Like it's it's it's, it's, it's it's the thing they 615 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 1: want to believe, and I think they sort of have 616 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: to believe for the ideology to function. So it's like 617 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: it's not like I don't know, like it's it's it's. 618 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: It's not that much different than like and Paul wolfowits 619 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: like still thinking the Iraq war works or something, right, 620 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: Like it's it's it's, it's, it's it's the thing you 621 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: have to believe in order to not like have to 622 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: sort of process the complications of what you're supporting. Yeah, 623 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: so I think, yeah, everything I want to talk about 624 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: sort of moving past this is about the stuff that's 625 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: been happening recently and about how stuff got better in Cuba, 626 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: because this is I like, this is this is one 627 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: of the places where like things actually did genuinely get 628 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: a lot better than like it was, and I want 629 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: to talk a bit about like how that happened before 630 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 1: we get to sort of the stuff that's been happening 631 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: in the last week or so. Yeah, and you know, 632 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: I'm happy to get into happier territories. Yeah, it sucks, like, 633 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: oh god, it's it's it's definitely dumer stuff to always 634 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: think about the sixties of the um. So, after the sixties, 635 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: it did get pretty It was pretty bad in the 636 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: nine seventies too. There was a purge of education and 637 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: culture of anyone LGBT or suspective being LGBT, because the 638 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: ideas that they would recruit and influence and corrupt the miners. 639 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: And yeah, uh so I can probably do an article 640 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: of comparing the Culture and Education Congress in seventy one 641 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: in Cuba with with with policies in the United States 642 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: right now. Um. And but then things start to get 643 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: better in the nineteen eighties, a little bit like the 644 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: the throttles pulled back. It's not great, but it's you know, 645 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: it's not terrible as terrible as it was. And then 646 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: from the late nineteen eighties into the nineteen nineties, we 647 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 1: really see to see start to see a sea change, 648 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: both in terms of popular culture and in terms of 649 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: the of state policy, and of course they're intertwined because 650 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: the who who who allows films to be put on 651 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: in theaters the state, They own all the theaters, so 652 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: um in terms of culture. Actually know one of the 653 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: people who had a play played a key role in this, 654 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: which is sin and Us and sene of Us is 655 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: this writer from a small town in Cuba, small village, 656 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: and he goes to have been and he's a he's 657 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: a writer and artist, and he wrote this short story 658 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: about this platonic relationship between a patriotic gay man and 659 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: a patriotic human heterosexual member of the communist youth who 660 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 1: develop a respect for each other. And it's like, even 661 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: though like the gay man is alienated from state policies 662 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: because of the persecution of LGBT people, he actually knows 663 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: a lot more about history and culturing Cuba than the 664 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: heterosexual guy who's raw ra revolution but doesn't actually know 665 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: like all these important writers and artists and and things 666 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 1: like that are also important for Cuban national identity. That 667 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: when that was first read in the Castable and Samericas, 668 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: which is like this huge building for human culture, people 669 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: wept just openly and then it was made into a 670 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,800 Speaker 1: movie called So Strawberry and Chocolate. I can explain the 671 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: type people, but basically it basically it's the same story. 672 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: It's expanded a bit because the original was a short 673 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: story and you can actually get in I states. I 674 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: think Paramount bought the rights for distribution. Fox maybe bought 675 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: the rights. I don't know, but it was came out 676 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: in and it was a big turning point for public 677 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: public perception, right. Um. Actually have a friend of mine 678 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: was who who knows who knows the offer? He was 679 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: stopped at his building and this the wife of a 680 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: colonel who lives in this building says, my husband wants 681 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: to see my friends, like, what would you? What did 682 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 1: I do? It goes up to the colonel's house. The 683 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: colonel says that you want coffee or anything? I said, 684 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: My friends says no. The colonel says, explained to me 685 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 1: this film that's come out recently, because the colonel wasn't 686 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: gonna see it in theaters. Then my friend explains the 687 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: movie and guy says no, no no, no, explain everything. So 688 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: basically my friend does a scene by scene synopsis for 689 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: memory and after like an hour and change in this 690 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: guy's house. The Colonel's just sitting there not saying anything. 691 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,320 Speaker 1: He said, if I understood this and seeing this earlier, 692 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: things might have been different, like like thank you. It's 693 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: it's a huge turning point culturally, and then politically you 694 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: also have Maria la castro So. Maria la castro is 695 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: daughter of Raoul castro So, niece of Fidel and she 696 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: from within the government, using her position of privilege, really 697 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: starts to push for better LGBT policies for resil GBT 698 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: people and better laws and runs. And she at the 699 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: head of the Senesex which is the National Center for 700 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: Sex Education, she really starts to spearhead and improvement. And 701 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: we start to see the ninety nineties and two thousand's 702 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: not just a pulling back of persecution, at least official persecution. 703 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 1: You know, you can still have informal prosecut level of jobs. 704 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 1: But you also start to see things like trans people 705 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: can have gender affirming surgery backed by the state, you know, 706 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 1: free of cost, Like all these sorts of different protections 707 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: and policies, like the senatex will if there's like a 708 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: homophobic incident to the school, they can send out somebody 709 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: to give a talk and say this is why persecuting 710 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: someone for their gender identity or the sexual orientation is wrong. 711 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 1: But but but you really see a shift in the 712 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: position of the state. And that's not just Mariella. I 713 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 1: don't want to make it about Mariella. But behind her 714 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: is of course all these other these LGBT people who 715 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: would not be in the position to demand this for themselves. 716 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,240 Speaker 1: But she definitely spearheads this, and I think she deserves 717 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: some merit for that. Yeah, it's interesting that they have, 718 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: like that they have a level of sort of buy 719 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: in from the state, because I think like that doesn't 720 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: happen in like China and Vietnam, and like you know, 721 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: I mean like Vietnam, like that there has actually been 722 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,439 Speaker 1: stuff there in the last like a year where there's 723 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: been a lot of real progress, but like they like 724 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: literally one month ago the government was like we're going 725 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: to declare almost axuality no longer like a mental illness, 726 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: and like that's sort of just like a month ago, yeah, yeah, yeah, 727 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 1: And then then there's only people a bit like cool 728 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: people have been fighting for in Vietnam for like a 729 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: long time, but like and even then, like there's this 730 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: whole thing there where like people like you get you 731 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 1: get this because if you talked to medical people in 732 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: like you start to doctors, you get this thing where like, well, okay, 733 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: so there's like real and the other thing, this thing 734 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: that is outlawed conversion therapy. But if you talk to 735 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 1: doctors about the doctors are like, well, there are real 736 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: gay gay people and there are fake gay people, and 737 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 1: the real gay people you can't do conversion therapy on 738 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: but but this rule there. But these guys are like, 739 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: this ruling only covers the real gay people, doesn't cover 740 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: the fake gay people because so do conversion therapy. Like 741 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: it's it's a disaster, and like I I don't know, 742 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,880 Speaker 1: like it's and like China also has been really bleak. 743 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:44,839 Speaker 1: Like I'm just gonna you're talking about a lot about 744 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: sort of like the effect the media has on it. 745 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read this thing from the Chinese General Rules 746 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,959 Speaker 1: for Television Drama Content Production from PLS and fifteen, which Okay, 747 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 1: I've seen conflicting things, but I think this is still 748 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,399 Speaker 1: an effect. If it's not still effect, it was only 749 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 1: reversed in one, but I think it's still in effect. 750 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: And also there have been new sort of guidelines have 751 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: been putting out from movies that are about like I 752 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: mean the specifically their stuff, like you you can't have 753 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: gay men in movies. You can't have men they were 754 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: to effeminate in movies, Like you can't have men that 755 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: look like they're cross dressing in movies. I'm gonna read 756 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 1: this thing from the TV code. Um so this is 757 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: this is stuff that he says is explicitly is not 758 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: to be shown. Content which depicts or portrays unnatural sexual 759 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 1: relations and actions such as incests, homosexuality, perversion, sexual harassment, 760 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,359 Speaker 1: sexual assault, sexual violence, etcetera. This is Vision Best version 761 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 1: two RISI and three. Content which portrays and promulgates unhealthy 762 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: perspectives on marriage and married loves such as extra marital love, 763 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: one night stands, free love, etcetera. Sorry, try guys not allowed. 764 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: Yeah no, Like it's like it's oh god, yeah, I'm 765 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna do a try guys joke every episode 766 00:42:55,719 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 1: for Never Never can get off the recording. The French 767 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: are surely complaining that the ban on cheating on your 768 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,879 Speaker 1: wife is an imposition on their culture. Yeah, definitely, that's 769 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: actually extremely racist against the French. The actually he said 770 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 1: it doesn't mention I was gonna make up I was 771 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 1: gonna make a French film pedophilia joke. But it doesn't 772 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: actually ban. It bands incests, but it doesn't actually ban 773 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 1: like that. I mean, I think the hearing on I 774 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 1: think I on pedophile I think I think it's a 775 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,839 Speaker 1: different section of the code that I didn't coffee here. 776 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, and I think part of what was going 777 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: on there was like like there wasn't like I mean, 778 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: I think things have gotten like it the law that 779 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,399 Speaker 1: was being used to arrest like gay people in China, 780 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,879 Speaker 1: like was the abolish in the nineties, but like and 781 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 1: like there was a culture shift, but it didn't like 782 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 1: the state decided it was going to do the same 783 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: thing the US state which is doing, which is like 784 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: do this sort of backlash to it, and it didn't. 785 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: Like that kind of stuff didn't happened, which is I 786 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,719 Speaker 1: think really bleak. But also like is genuinely a thing 787 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,239 Speaker 1: that like like yeah, like the good good good for 788 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,280 Speaker 1: good for the Cuban people, good for Cuba, Like glad, 789 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,759 Speaker 1: glad you all are doing this. This is major because 790 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: like major win. Yeah, because because it because you know, 791 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 1: like you can you can see what happens when like 792 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 1: this doesn't happen, which is all of this bullshit that 793 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: exists in a lot of the other sort of post 794 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:29,759 Speaker 1: Soviet like or post communist countries. Yeah, I think that 795 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: Cuba would have done it eventually, but I think that 796 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 1: Mariela definitely just spread it along. And like there's there's 797 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: definitely a problem of a cult of Mariella, where like 798 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: abroad where it's like all all things be great, be 799 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 1: due to Mariella. It's like completely cuts out all the 800 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,760 Speaker 1: people behind her, you know, who also been like please 801 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 1: ask ask your uncle to do that's for me. I 802 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: gotta get married someday. But you know, but at the 803 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:57,279 Speaker 1: same time, I think we can't cut her out of 804 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,919 Speaker 1: the story either. Yeah, and and that gets us to, well, 805 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: I guess I guess you're starting quinting n tea first. 806 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, the the new family code that's passed, which 807 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 1: also I do want to mention this because I don't 808 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 1: think like people don't even know this when I tell 809 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: them about this, about neither China nor Vietnam is game 810 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: in neither trying to nor Vietnam is game. Marriage legal, 811 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of people who think that the 812 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,399 Speaker 1: repeal that happened to Vietnam legalized gamma marriage, and that's 813 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: not what happens. Like the thing that it did is 814 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: you will no longer be arrested for having your own 815 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: unofficial marriage, which is the thing that could happen. But 816 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: this is this, this is this is not this is 817 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: not the thing that is happening in Cuba. Like I 818 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: see those are people a lot where like something good 819 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,360 Speaker 1: will happen in Cuba and people will prorect it onto 820 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,880 Speaker 1: like China, and it's like that's no, like they're not 821 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 1: the same place, Like don't don't don't do this with 822 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 1: this stuff. Don't project the Cuban medical system onto the 823 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: Chinese medical system. They're not the same. Please stop. Yeah yeah, yeah, okay, 824 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: but yeah, going on to stuff that's good and this stuff, 825 00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,080 Speaker 1: but on also the sort of like yeah, so we 826 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 1: talk a bit about like what talking about like the 827 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: en referendum and the sort of like the stuff about 828 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: sort of how do you find this, like the story 829 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 1: of how the stuff that's happening now didn't happen in yeah. Yeah. 830 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:25,279 Speaker 1: So so when the ins the Raoul Castro, who who 831 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,640 Speaker 1: took over after fidel Um, he began using a bunch 832 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,760 Speaker 1: of referendums decide major things, major policy changes, and using 833 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,240 Speaker 1: referendums kind of just till like because like the because 834 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 1: the nationalists, the police basically a revereren stamp committee. Like 835 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: referendums really took to the four as a way to 836 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: like channelize, channel support and you know, show popular acquiescence 837 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: to major changes among the constitution. So as part of 838 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,919 Speaker 1: the they did a draft constitution. They debated it, their 839 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: debase all around the country at local levels, in in 840 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:04,760 Speaker 1: in in neighborhoods and workplaces, and people gave feedback the 841 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,960 Speaker 1: um marriage equality and and and things connected to it, 842 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 1: which we can get into in a second. These were 843 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 1: part of for the most part, part of the twenty 844 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:20,920 Speaker 1: nineteen constitution, but there was a lot of pushback. Um Like, obviously, 845 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,160 Speaker 1: if if the state has been repressing LGBT people for decades, 846 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: that part of their coalition just doesn't stop overnight, does 847 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,560 Speaker 1: It doesn't just stop being bigoted overnight because of you know, 848 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,719 Speaker 1: a change in policy. So you know, it wasn't just 849 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,399 Speaker 1: that the religious right, like evangelicals, there are a lot 850 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 1: of evangelicals in Cuba right now. There's a growing evangelical 851 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,520 Speaker 1: population I'm sorry to say, yeah, backed by the joical money. 852 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:52,399 Speaker 1: Uh no, please repressing the wrong people. And and then 853 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:57,239 Speaker 1: there's the Catholic right obviously you know, much more you know, 854 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,279 Speaker 1: discreetly but still very you know, against this. Uh And 855 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 1: there was enough pushback that the government was worried that 856 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,240 Speaker 1: I don't know if they were worried that the constitution 857 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,440 Speaker 1: the referendum would fail entirely, but it did seem like 858 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,920 Speaker 1: they were worried that it would lower the voting percentage 859 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,800 Speaker 1: in favor of the new constitution enough that it would 860 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,320 Speaker 1: hurt the new constitution's legitimacy or something. So they decided 861 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:25,360 Speaker 1: to carve off the more controversial parts about the LGBT 862 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 1: rights and basically carve them off, pushed them into a 863 00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,320 Speaker 1: referendum on the family code with all the new laws 864 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 1: based on the new constitution, all the new laws governing 865 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,120 Speaker 1: family law, and pump that down the road indefinitely. And 866 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: so what's happening now that would just happened is the 867 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: culmination of this red ferendom that they punted down the road. 868 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 1: In twenty the original Constitution was passed with something like 869 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,800 Speaker 1: approval uh And and this was just kind of left 870 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 1: on the to do list, and then with the current 871 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 1: crisis in Cuba. I mean, like there's a couple of 872 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 1: there's a couple of ways to read this, but I 873 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 1: think one of the most obvious is that, uh, the 874 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,319 Speaker 1: Cuban government needed to win, and this was an easy 875 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,480 Speaker 1: win they could actually deliver in the age of extreme 876 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,640 Speaker 1: scarcity and rolling blackouts. It's like, we can just at 877 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:20,480 Speaker 1: least deliver on this promise, and they did. So. Yeah, 878 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:22,360 Speaker 1: I guess. So can we talk a bit about like 879 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,480 Speaker 1: what what what what actually is in the new code 880 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:30,120 Speaker 1: and what like what what it does? Yeah? So it does. 881 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,040 Speaker 1: It does a bunch of pretty cool things. It legalizes 882 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: same sex marriage, which is great for a lot of people, 883 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,880 Speaker 1: not just because you know, not not just because of 884 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,560 Speaker 1: the principle of it, but also things like, Okay, you're 885 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,600 Speaker 1: separating from your partner, but everything is under your partner's name, 886 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,080 Speaker 1: you're not never need marry and what are your rights? 887 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,839 Speaker 1: Pop up up up us so you like, for for separation, 888 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,640 Speaker 1: for immigration, if you're trying to immigrate and you're not 889 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,520 Speaker 1: married to your spouse, you know, you know, if you're 890 00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 1: trying to inheritance, all these kinds of things. Yeah, this 891 00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,200 Speaker 1: is gonna be. This is like important in concrete material ways. 892 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,760 Speaker 1: It legalizes adoption by same sex couples, which is also 893 00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,520 Speaker 1: pretty cool. That was not allowed at all. Good it 894 00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,160 Speaker 1: wasn't before. Glad, Glad, glad, glad. You can now do that. 895 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,640 Speaker 1: That that's good. Hopefully we can still continue to do 896 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:21,600 Speaker 1: that here for like a few more years at least. 897 00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: Like yeah, um, it legalizes surrogacy and same scop sex 898 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,680 Speaker 1: couples can can benefit from can use surgacy now, although 899 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,000 Speaker 1: on a not for profit basis, and that's that's specific. 900 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,480 Speaker 1: I'm not an expert on whether or not it is 901 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,600 Speaker 1: the best policy to have it as only not for profit. Um. 902 00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:44,480 Speaker 1: I know that there's a lot of debate over it, 903 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,200 Speaker 1: but the law says not for profit only for surrogacy. 904 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:52,239 Speaker 1: But that's still another option for people. In addition to adoption. UH. 905 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,600 Speaker 1: It expands civil unions to be much more inclusive. They're 906 00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:00,720 Speaker 1: called uh in Spanish, so now they were much more inclusive. 907 00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,799 Speaker 1: And also you know, you know, you you don't have 908 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:05,799 Speaker 1: to get married. You can get a civil union if 909 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,319 Speaker 1: you can we explain what that is, because that was 910 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,160 Speaker 1: a like there there was a whole thing in the 911 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,000 Speaker 1: US like in the in the two thousand's about like, oh, 912 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:15,840 Speaker 1: like you can do civil Like there was a period 913 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:16,680 Speaker 1: it was like there are a lot of places you 914 00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,520 Speaker 1: can get civil unions, but you couldn't get married. So 915 00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,480 Speaker 1: can you explain what a civil union is? Because I 916 00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: think that's a thing that like a lot of our 917 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 1: audience probably isn't gonna like remember when that was a 918 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,839 Speaker 1: thing anyone talked about. Sure, I mean, like I'm I'm 919 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,759 Speaker 1: not a lawyer. Yeah, my understanding is it is it 920 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:40,480 Speaker 1: is a way to recognize your your basically partners. You 921 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:44,160 Speaker 1: have some rights, and it helps with some issues of 922 00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,759 Speaker 1: like I think it also varies country to country, but 923 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,120 Speaker 1: it's basically like a step down from the full commitment 924 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 1: of marriage, is my understanding. Um, sorry, that's less. No, Yeah, 925 00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,840 Speaker 1: I know like that that was that was by understanding 926 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,400 Speaker 1: of it. It was like like in the US, it 927 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:03,640 Speaker 1: was this whole thing of like, wow, you can have 928 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,240 Speaker 1: still unions so you don't need to be married. And 929 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,680 Speaker 1: then people were like no, because it doesn't give you 930 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:11,000 Speaker 1: It doesn't give you this sort of full suite of 931 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:16,480 Speaker 1: rights and stuff, but it gives you some things, which 932 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:18,520 Speaker 1: I'm glad. I'm glad he was doing like, no, you 933 00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,040 Speaker 1: can do both of these things. And then wasn't there 934 00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,759 Speaker 1: something about like like, yeah, there there were changes to 935 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:28,640 Speaker 1: like what like changes to what can be recognized as 936 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,880 Speaker 1: a family That is the part that I've seen the most, 937 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,000 Speaker 1: Like I have read a bunch about this, and I'm 938 00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,160 Speaker 1: I still feel like this is something that's not it's 939 00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,920 Speaker 1: not entirely clear what this is going to look like 940 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:50,959 Speaker 1: in practice. So basically it expands the what the legal 941 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,919 Speaker 1: definition of what can constitute as a family unit uh 942 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,640 Speaker 1: to be more focused less focused on blood ties, and 943 00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:01,200 Speaker 1: more focused on affective ties, so of affection, you know, 944 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,160 Speaker 1: caring for each other. Uh so that for example, let's say, 945 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,600 Speaker 1: I think like the big hypothetical that was held up 946 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,120 Speaker 1: was like grandparents, so like if the parents aren't around, 947 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:16,879 Speaker 1: but in practice, these people are the ones that raise you, 948 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 1: you know that you know, for for for legal stuff 949 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:21,440 Speaker 1: that has to do with kids in family law, Like 950 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:25,319 Speaker 1: we can consider this a family unit, is my understanding. 951 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,080 Speaker 1: It's still really murky and it's not really helping me 952 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,680 Speaker 1: feel like like that. The things I've read on this 953 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 1: also seemed to be kind of like like here's an explanation. 954 00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,600 Speaker 1: I'm like that that doesn't really help me understand this 955 00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:43,200 Speaker 1: at all. It is a little and and I've seen 956 00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,600 Speaker 1: people running about this is like human government has abolished 957 00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:51,200 Speaker 1: the family ray And I'm like, didn't. Yeah, And for 958 00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,600 Speaker 1: everything everybody it seems like it's something they abolished the family. 959 00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,200 Speaker 1: It's that they've allowed you to change what a family 960 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,200 Speaker 1: is in the like in the eyes of the state eight, 961 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:06,520 Speaker 1: which is not the same thing, right, Like it's like 962 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:11,160 Speaker 1: giving you more wiggle grow. Yeah, um is my understanding. 963 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,520 Speaker 1: But again it's one of those things where I feel 964 00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,600 Speaker 1: like everyone who I've seen running with it has run 965 00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,080 Speaker 1: with a completely different, very triumphilist explanation that are sometimes 966 00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,480 Speaker 1: mutually contradictory. And I'm like, I'd like to see what 967 00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,759 Speaker 1: this actually looks like in practice and like seeing the 968 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,160 Speaker 1: effects better because it's it's an underdiscussed dynamic of it 969 00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,000 Speaker 1: because like what most people abroad we're looking at was 970 00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:36,359 Speaker 1: like same sex marriage, so like this, so that was 971 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:41,280 Speaker 1: less discussed, but I mean it seems to be positive. 972 00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:44,040 Speaker 1: The thing that the thing that caused more controversy on 973 00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,720 Speaker 1: the island was there was a shift to patio stud 974 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:56,319 Speaker 1: which is uh father paternal rights basically parental rights right 975 00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:01,160 Speaker 1: and um, basically, the idea is to swit the child 976 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:05,960 Speaker 1: from nearly being a subject of their parents, will in 977 00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,719 Speaker 1: theory they have more rights in our subject on their own, 978 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:13,000 Speaker 1: even if they're just a kid that's trying, yeah, to 979 00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:16,160 Speaker 1: like prevent things like corporal punishments and things like that 980 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,360 Speaker 1: you can't beat your kids, which also seems like a 981 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:23,160 Speaker 1: positive change. Yeah, I mean would would would love more 982 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,600 Speaker 1: of that in the US too, just like absolutely clawber 983 00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:30,640 Speaker 1: the like parental rights people because oh my fucking they're 984 00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:34,680 Speaker 1: they're going to kill us all yeah. And I mean 985 00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,160 Speaker 1: the funny thing is like every time that there's a 986 00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,719 Speaker 1: leftist movement, the thing is always there, coming for your kids. 987 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:46,279 Speaker 1: And then like oh god, yeah anyway, sorry no, yeah, 988 00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:50,040 Speaker 1: like it's the right has one thing and it's the 989 00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:54,359 Speaker 1: same thing every time. Yeah. Uh. Those are the kind 990 00:55:54,360 --> 00:56:06,879 Speaker 1: of the big things that the friend of m The 991 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,920 Speaker 1: only thing I wanted to talk about was like, okay, 992 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,680 Speaker 1: so there was a thing of Okay, so like obviously 993 00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,000 Speaker 1: it passed with like sixty seven percent of the vote. 994 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:21,440 Speaker 1: I think, um, something like that, like basically the theories 995 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:23,600 Speaker 1: of the vote. Um, and I want to talk a 996 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:28,040 Speaker 1: bit about like Okay, so something I saw okay, So like, okay, 997 00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:30,120 Speaker 1: so you have the people who voted against it because 998 00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:35,160 Speaker 1: they're Christian and they suck um and the young people 999 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:40,040 Speaker 1: who are just homophobic non Christian homophobes, non Christian homophobes. 1000 00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:43,439 Speaker 1: But then there was also like something that I saw 1001 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,960 Speaker 1: that was like like people in opposition groups being like, 1002 00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,799 Speaker 1: we're going to vote against this as like a vote 1003 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,680 Speaker 1: against the government, which yeah, can we explain what that 1004 00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:56,480 Speaker 1: was about, because that's yeah, sure. And I think that 1005 00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:59,319 Speaker 1: you also have a division there between the people who 1006 00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,200 Speaker 1: are like, it's really against the government, but really it's 1007 00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:06,560 Speaker 1: against the chance thought about like I think that even there, 1008 00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:10,799 Speaker 1: it's a mixed bag of both. But um, basically, the 1009 00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:15,759 Speaker 1: idea was that by approving this uh and voting in 1010 00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:17,800 Speaker 1: favor of something cooked up by the government, that they 1011 00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:21,880 Speaker 1: were giving credence to the government, legitimacy to the government. Uh. Ergo, 1012 00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:27,360 Speaker 1: the only moral position was either extension or voting now uh. 1013 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,959 Speaker 1: And so I mean, again a lot of it's mixed 1014 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,200 Speaker 1: up with they also really as a rule, did not 1015 00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,960 Speaker 1: like the content of the law. I mean, part of 1016 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:40,400 Speaker 1: the thing is like it's the the the opposition is 1017 00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:43,760 Speaker 1: in this weird space right now, where they have like 1018 00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:47,120 Speaker 1: the more historical branch, which is you have like a 1019 00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,919 Speaker 1: historical branch that it's like rapidly far right. Uh. And 1020 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,560 Speaker 1: then you have there's a lot of overlap with like 1021 00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:58,080 Speaker 1: default Catholic right in there uh and the Catholic of 1022 00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,520 Speaker 1: far right in there as I'm sure you understand what 1023 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:04,919 Speaker 1: that means. But but but then you also have a 1024 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:11,480 Speaker 1: growing prominent liberal contingent um who speaks better not just 1025 00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:14,480 Speaker 1: that doesn't just put on a better face for international audiences, 1026 00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:18,840 Speaker 1: but also puts on a better face for Cuban audiences. Um. 1027 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:23,600 Speaker 1: And because like Cuba is not a far right wing society, 1028 00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,720 Speaker 1: like for example, abortion, Like I spoke to a right 1029 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,840 Speaker 1: wing Cuban who left who's like, yeah, I like Ben 1030 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:31,600 Speaker 1: Shapira and a lot of what he says, but I 1031 00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:33,960 Speaker 1: don't get his obsession with abortion. That's a woman's right. 1032 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:37,480 Speaker 1: Like that's just so weird to me. It's because like 1033 00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,600 Speaker 1: Cubans aren't aren't necessarily super religious as well, which is 1034 00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:42,440 Speaker 1: a big part of it. Uh and solimant to the 1035 00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:47,040 Speaker 1: petis and all that, so the the so so that's 1036 00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:49,919 Speaker 1: so they're they're kind of like a but like it's 1037 00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,439 Speaker 1: like cats and dogs tied into a sack. So there's 1038 00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,320 Speaker 1: like you have these different opposition figures, and I think 1039 00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,760 Speaker 1: that the really right wing ones know that they can't 1040 00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:04,480 Speaker 1: be as openly homophobic as they used to be, and 1041 00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,000 Speaker 1: so they need to couch it in a different way. 1042 00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,000 Speaker 1: I think it's not just that I don't want to 1043 00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:10,960 Speaker 1: reduce everyone to that, but I do think that's a 1044 00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:15,200 Speaker 1: huge part of that project. And then in addition to that, 1045 00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,600 Speaker 1: just people who are like anything that the government does 1046 00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,200 Speaker 1: is bad because they're accelerationists, which is another big part 1047 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,240 Speaker 1: of the opposite. Know why is every Why is everybody 1048 00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,320 Speaker 1: an acceleration is? Now this is the worst I I 1049 00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,000 Speaker 1: why an acceleration? I think I wonder if his material 1050 00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:35,360 Speaker 1: reality is a trick to that to the I am 1051 00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:37,520 Speaker 1: going to take a time machine. I am going to 1052 00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:40,480 Speaker 1: hunt down nick Land, and I am going to stop 1053 00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:43,120 Speaker 1: the g RU from forming, and no one will ever 1054 00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:46,720 Speaker 1: know what acceleration is. You know, that's not true. Without 1055 00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,640 Speaker 1: nick Land, someone else would come up with with accelerationism. 1056 00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:54,800 Speaker 1: It's a very easy thing to think of to to 1057 00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,320 Speaker 1: to be fair to nick Land, at least at least 1058 00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,680 Speaker 1: his version of acceleration ism had to do with like 1059 01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:04,600 Speaker 1: at least there was everyone. Yeah, like the first accelerationism, 1060 01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:07,439 Speaker 1: We're like, like capitalism is the human machine that's also 1061 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:09,200 Speaker 1: a god that only exists in but that it exists 1062 01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:13,200 Speaker 1: continuously in potential and all all of you like the 1063 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:17,400 Speaker 1: market being irresistible because because because because because it's like 1064 01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:21,000 Speaker 1: the market itself is the thinking machine that this is 1065 01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:25,080 Speaker 1: at least funny. Yeah, the moder stuff is, Oh god, 1066 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,640 Speaker 1: this is like they I longed for the days where 1067 01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:30,760 Speaker 1: there was an argument where people where people would do 1068 01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:34,120 Speaker 1: the modern accelerationist thing and like the land Ens were go, no, no, no, 1069 01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:38,520 Speaker 1: that's not what accelerationism is. It's just that I hate 1070 01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:42,560 Speaker 1: this reality. It's the worst. Yeah. So I mean, like 1071 01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:45,840 Speaker 1: I think I think a good chunk of the opposition 1072 01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:48,959 Speaker 1: movement can be described as alex accelerationist. It's not just 1073 01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:52,040 Speaker 1: it's not just accelerationists, but I do think a lot 1074 01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:55,800 Speaker 1: of them are in there. Any improvements to anything is 1075 01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,400 Speaker 1: helping the government. That's why they support the embargo. That's 1076 01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:00,240 Speaker 1: why they don't want an improvement on any law us. 1077 01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,280 Speaker 1: They want things to be as dysfunctional as possible because 1078 01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,080 Speaker 1: they think that like the government is incapable of actually 1079 01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:09,800 Speaker 1: getting doing better, and to the extent that it becomes 1080 01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:12,680 Speaker 1: better and stronger, it's just going to be more repressive ergo. 1081 01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:16,280 Speaker 1: The solution is bring the country to a standstill so 1082 01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:19,080 Speaker 1: there will be a general strike and overthrow the government. 1083 01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,320 Speaker 1: That's their plan. I think that seems like a terrible plan. 1084 01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,160 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna gonna throw that out there. That's that, 1085 01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:28,680 Speaker 1: Like I get at that at that point, Like why 1086 01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:30,880 Speaker 1: do why not just become a terrorist? Like I don't know, 1087 01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:35,640 Speaker 1: Like because that's because that's more scary. Yeah, that's the 1088 01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:39,840 Speaker 1: actual reason. Yeah, it's like people, it's people, people who 1089 01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:43,320 Speaker 1: were too cowardly to like kill someone with their own bombs, 1090 01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:46,640 Speaker 1: so they kill people by trying to get sanctions due instead, 1091 01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:51,640 Speaker 1: which is like no, although there have there happened, there 1092 01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:55,480 Speaker 1: happened terns. There was the realist. He blew up a 1093 01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:58,080 Speaker 1: put a frag bomb in a Cuban hotel and killed 1094 01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:03,320 Speaker 1: the Cuban An Italian tourist. Um. Yeah, actually, actually, my 1095 01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:05,800 Speaker 1: my dad was working on the extradition case to get 1096 01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:10,880 Speaker 1: an extradited even over that. He was Yeah, he's he 1097 01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:13,840 Speaker 1: also committed the first act. So a Cuban, a CIA 1098 01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:18,040 Speaker 1: trained Cuban exile committed the first act of terrorism involving 1099 01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:25,360 Speaker 1: civil aviation in the Western hemisphere. That's pretty late. Yeah, 1100 01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:26,880 Speaker 1: I mean maybe maybe it was just people were just 1101 01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,440 Speaker 1: doing it in and maybe it was just a European thing, 1102 01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:31,080 Speaker 1: and then the CIA was like, what if we bring 1103 01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:35,600 Speaker 1: this here? It's like, no, sure, surely this will work 1104 01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:37,760 Speaker 1: better for us that it worked for every other group 1105 01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:42,920 Speaker 1: who's hijacked a plane in the nineteen seventies. Oh God, 1106 01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:47,000 Speaker 1: this sucks. I hope, I hope those guys have a 1107 01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:52,479 Speaker 1: bad time and that. Yeah. Yeah, well at least kicked 1108 01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,760 Speaker 1: it a couple of years ago. Oh, thank god. Okay, 1109 01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:59,360 Speaker 1: rest rest in piss official official pot opinion doing we're 1110 01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:08,560 Speaker 1: doing the crab Like god, these people suck. Um Yeah yeah, 1111 01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:12,640 Speaker 1: so yeah, I guess do you have anything else you 1112 01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,960 Speaker 1: want to talk about? Or I think that's it. Just 1113 01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:18,840 Speaker 1: thanks a lot for having me on. It was it 1114 01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,320 Speaker 1: was great to be on. Thank thanks for coming on. Yeah. 1115 01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:26,680 Speaker 1: Queer rights good, not doing them bad. Don't kill people 1116 01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:32,680 Speaker 1: with sanctions, Yeah, definitely. The embargo has been an utter failure, everything, 1117 01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:41,720 Speaker 1: increasing human misery. Yeah, like all right, yeah, and I guess, um, yeah, 1118 01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:43,720 Speaker 1: but listening, do you do you have do you have 1119 01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:47,560 Speaker 1: stuff you want to plug? Oh? Sure, that's that's that's 1120 01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,120 Speaker 1: a very good and generous point. Um. So you can 1121 01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:54,640 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at at a s R tier 1122 01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:57,400 Speaker 1: up Peas and Peter E r Teas and tom I 1123 01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:00,480 Speaker 1: e r r A. I also have a po podcast 1124 01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,040 Speaker 1: which is linked in my bio. I'm doing a history 1125 01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:06,000 Speaker 1: of Cuba um as an academic, but spreading for a 1126 01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,320 Speaker 1: poor popular audience. And we're going way when we start 1127 01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:10,560 Speaker 1: with the indigenous people. We don't just jump over them, 1128 01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:14,800 Speaker 1: and we're I'm currently working on Columbus and then uh, 1129 01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:18,320 Speaker 1: let's see. And I also have a sub stack called 1130 01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:21,920 Speaker 1: scene embargo s I N and then the word embargo 1131 01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:28,360 Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah that that's without embargo. If I'm Spanish, 1132 01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:32,320 Speaker 1: is okay, Yes, it means without embargo, but it also 1133 01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:36,160 Speaker 1: sounds like sid embargo, which is I feel like it 1134 01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:42,320 Speaker 1: would be a cool band name. So yeah, yeah, well 1135 01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:43,680 Speaker 1: we will, we will, we will link to stuff and 1136 01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,680 Speaker 1: we will link to that in the description, and yeah, 1137 01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:48,240 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us. This this has been na 1138 01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:53,240 Speaker 1: could happen here? Um yeah, make bad things happen to 1139 01:04:53,280 --> 01:05:00,680 Speaker 1: homophobes and get good things to happen. It Could Happen 1140 01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,000 Speaker 1: Here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more 1141 01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:05,560 Speaker 1: podcasts from the cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 1142 01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:07,600 Speaker 1: zone media dot com or check us out on the 1143 01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:10,360 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 1144 01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,280 Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It could Happen Here, 1145 01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:16,840 Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. 1146 01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:17,880 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.