WEBVTT - Incident Report 0:00:08.245 --> 0:00:14.125 School of Humans. Okay, let me show you something. Sure. 0:00:16.125 --> 0:00:20.485 This is Debbie, Ebbie's grandmother on her dad's side. We're 0:00:20.525 --> 0:00:23.205 at her home in Little Rock and she's about to 0:00:23.245 --> 0:00:25.725 show me something she doesn't show a lot of people. 0:00:27.245 --> 0:00:30.885 When Ebbie disappeared, law enforcement asked Debbie not to talk 0:00:30.885 --> 0:00:35.965 to the media. The police said, please be quiet, let 0:00:36.045 --> 0:00:38.765 us be the folks people, I mean, let us handle this. 0:00:39.765 --> 0:00:43.485 I usually was the fixer in our family, and so 0:00:43.565 --> 0:00:45.485 normally I would have been the one down with the police. 0:00:45.605 --> 0:00:47.445 I would have been the one making statements. I would 0:00:47.445 --> 0:00:49.565 have been the one judging what goes out, and I 0:00:49.565 --> 0:00:53.365 couldn't do that, so I sat back. Debbie says that 0:00:53.445 --> 0:00:57.845 for several years she's been silent, but now she's convinced 0:00:57.845 --> 0:01:00.245 that the only way to get justice for Ebbie is 0:01:00.285 --> 0:01:03.765 to make the story as public as possible. I don't 0:01:03.805 --> 0:01:06.205 show this to everybody, but this is what I did. 0:01:07.845 --> 0:01:10.605 That's amazing. Yeah, you're one of the few people that 0:01:10.685 --> 0:01:14.205 have seen it. Debbie has built her own very detailed 0:01:14.285 --> 0:01:17.525 murder board with lots of photos of people who were 0:01:17.525 --> 0:01:21.685 in Ebbie's life. Her murder board, like ours, has a 0:01:21.685 --> 0:01:26.565 big question mark around Saturday night October twenty fourth, when 0:01:26.605 --> 0:01:30.205 Tommy took over the case, she went to talk to him. 0:01:30.285 --> 0:01:32.725 When I sat with Tommy that day, of course, he 0:01:32.845 --> 0:01:35.485 took pictures and things. He went, well, I can't tell 0:01:35.525 --> 0:01:37.725 you much, but you don't know where she was here. 0:01:37.805 --> 0:01:39.645 I know exactly where she was here. You don't know 0:01:39.645 --> 0:01:41.445 where she was there. I know exactly where she was there. 0:01:41.845 --> 0:01:44.565 You can forget him. You can forget him. You can this, 0:01:44.765 --> 0:01:49.045 you can that. Like Laurie and so many other people 0:01:49.085 --> 0:01:53.125 close to Ebbie, Debbie has been investigating Ebbie's death for years, 0:01:53.845 --> 0:01:57.485 collecting information that could potentially get us closer to the truth. 0:01:58.525 --> 0:02:02.645 And Debbie has connections that could get us closer to 0:02:02.765 --> 0:02:08.405 understanding the inconsistencies in the secure guard stories. I'm Catherine Townsend. 0:02:08.925 --> 0:02:43.605 This is hell and Gone. No one I talked to 0:02:43.845 --> 0:02:46.605 seems to know much about the security guard Guy Hooper. 0:02:47.605 --> 0:02:49.485 What we do know is that he used to run 0:02:49.645 --> 0:02:54.125 his own security company called ASSI. He now appears to 0:02:54.165 --> 0:02:57.125 be retired, and during the time that he worked at 0:02:57.205 --> 0:03:01.165 Chelmont Park, he was also working security at other places, 0:03:01.805 --> 0:03:05.405 including a women's health center. We know that the pool 0:03:05.805 --> 0:03:10.405 didn't immediately speak with Guy after Ebbie disappeared. Because Monny 0:03:10.565 --> 0:03:13.605 was shocked when he found guy five months after Ebbie 0:03:13.605 --> 0:03:17.765 went missing, and according to Grandma Debbie, Monny was not 0:03:17.805 --> 0:03:20.925 the first person to find the security guard a few 0:03:20.965 --> 0:03:24.365 months in. It was very it was very frustrating because 0:03:24.965 --> 0:03:27.005 you know, so many mistakes were made in the beginning. 0:03:27.765 --> 0:03:29.885 And my husband even at one point Collins said, have 0:03:29.965 --> 0:03:32.485 you talked to that guard? Because my husband owns a 0:03:32.565 --> 0:03:36.485 landscaping company and one of the neighborhoods he had their 0:03:36.525 --> 0:03:39.165 security guard. They've done that neighborhood for years, a big 0:03:39.325 --> 0:03:42.885 housing condition, and he said something to one of the 0:03:43.205 --> 0:03:44.925 on the board that he says, you know, I was 0:03:44.965 --> 0:03:48.845 over there and I saw her in Chalamote Park and 0:03:48.885 --> 0:03:50.645 he said I ran her off a couple of times, 0:03:50.725 --> 0:03:53.765 and my husband called during that time. I said, I 0:03:53.805 --> 0:03:58.005 think that if you would do nothing. Ebbie's step dad, Michael, 0:03:58.325 --> 0:04:01.365 has also talked a guy a few times. He used 0:04:01.405 --> 0:04:04.965 to patrol up in this neighborhood and I knew who 0:04:05.005 --> 0:04:07.005 he was. I don't know if he knew who I was, 0:04:07.085 --> 0:04:10.405 but I'd seen him drive through and he's an odd individual, 0:04:10.765 --> 0:04:14.405 and so I've talked to him. After a while, I 0:04:14.445 --> 0:04:16.605 think he figured out who I was. And so I've 0:04:16.645 --> 0:04:19.845 talked to him out here when he's patrolling through a 0:04:19.885 --> 0:04:22.125 couple of times. I've seen him up at the park 0:04:22.165 --> 0:04:25.325 a couple of times. Trevor and I ran into him 0:04:25.445 --> 0:04:27.725 up there. But I can tell you that, you know, 0:04:27.765 --> 0:04:29.645 it's I just never have been I don't know if 0:04:29.645 --> 0:04:31.485 he did anything wrong or not. He may be just 0:04:31.565 --> 0:04:36.565 a weird guy. Grandma Debbie puts me in touch with 0:04:36.605 --> 0:04:39.205 an old friend of hers, someone he worked with the 0:04:39.245 --> 0:04:42.925 homeowners association in Saint Charles, the neighborhood that is very 0:04:42.965 --> 0:04:46.925 near Chalmont Park. This source tells me that Guy Hooper 0:04:47.125 --> 0:04:49.645 was the security guard for that area for several years 0:04:50.005 --> 0:04:53.605 until twenty eighteen when the Little Rock Police Department officers 0:04:53.645 --> 0:04:57.525 began patrolling there. He tells me that Chalmont Park was 0:04:57.565 --> 0:05:00.765 a safe neighborhood, so the main things that the residents 0:05:00.765 --> 0:05:03.485 were worried about were things like copper wire theft or 0:05:03.685 --> 0:05:06.685 people swiping stuff from one of the min construction sites around. 0:05:07.525 --> 0:05:10.965 So the security guard was really there to deter thieves 0:05:11.205 --> 0:05:13.845 or to clear kids out of the park who may 0:05:13.845 --> 0:05:17.925 have been drinking or hooking up. Most of the things 0:05:17.925 --> 0:05:21.005 that Guy reported were things that were not high priorities. 0:05:21.045 --> 0:05:24.405 For the police, but things that might concern residents in 0:05:24.445 --> 0:05:29.125 the neighborhood. When we talked to Eric, he said he 0:05:29.165 --> 0:05:33.365 doesn't remember there ever being security at Shalamant Park. All 0:05:33.365 --> 0:05:36.125 the times that we've been today, I've never seen the security, 0:05:36.205 --> 0:05:39.085 not even like in a truck or that's why the 0:05:39.125 --> 0:05:43.685 neighbors haying the security guys out time. Like what I've 0:05:43.765 --> 0:05:47.605 talked to Monty several times about Guy Hooper, But what 0:05:47.685 --> 0:05:50.845 Monty's telling us that guy told him and what Guys 0:05:50.885 --> 0:05:56.885 told other people, these stories just aren't matching up. First, 0:05:57.125 --> 0:06:01.965 there's the incident report. Guy said to Monny that Ebbie's 0:06:02.045 --> 0:06:04.965 car was at the park on Sunday night, Monday night, 0:06:05.005 --> 0:06:08.725 and Tuesday, so he called the police multiple times to 0:06:08.765 --> 0:06:11.845 report that it had been abandoned there. He said that 0:06:11.885 --> 0:06:14.805 he checked the car and found the ignition running in 0:06:14.925 --> 0:06:18.645 Ebbie's purse and personal items inside the car, but he 0:06:18.765 --> 0:06:22.205 said that even though he waited several hours, the police 0:06:22.285 --> 0:06:25.765 never showed up. Guys said that he was there at 0:06:25.805 --> 0:06:28.925 the park on Wednesday night and Thursday night and the 0:06:28.965 --> 0:06:31.525 car was there, But he said that when he came 0:06:31.525 --> 0:06:34.325 back on Friday night, which would have been October thirtieth, 0:06:34.845 --> 0:06:38.205 the car was gone. If he did call the police 0:06:38.285 --> 0:06:41.965 multiple times, why isn't he anywhere on the incident report. 0:06:45.005 --> 0:06:47.725 Guy appeared on an episode about Ebbie on a show 0:06:47.765 --> 0:06:50.605 called Crime Watch Daily. The name has now been changed 0:06:50.645 --> 0:06:54.845 to True Crime Daily. That True Crime Daily story came 0:06:54.885 --> 0:06:59.125 out before Ebbie's body was found in that drain. That's 0:06:59.165 --> 0:07:03.205 back when they were investigating every possibility, including the possibility 0:07:03.245 --> 0:07:07.645 that Ebbie could have been kidnapped and sex trafficked. In 0:07:07.685 --> 0:07:11.765 the interview, Guy clearly said he had seen Ebbie in 0:07:11.805 --> 0:07:15.165 the park on at least three different occasions, and he 0:07:15.205 --> 0:07:18.685 said she was not alone. In the interview, he said, 0:07:19.725 --> 0:07:23.045 it was late evening. I advised them all everybody to 0:07:23.125 --> 0:07:25.725 leave the park, which they did. Then a few days 0:07:25.805 --> 0:07:28.525 later I run into her again with another young black gentleman. 0:07:29.125 --> 0:07:30.925 This time they were in the backseat of the car, 0:07:31.365 --> 0:07:33.845 and the third time she was back with another couple 0:07:33.885 --> 0:07:38.645 of gentlemen. He said that all three times he saw 0:07:38.685 --> 0:07:41.685 her there she was with a black mail medium hike 0:07:41.965 --> 0:07:45.605 about five foot six to five foot seven, with long dreadlocks. 0:07:46.645 --> 0:07:49.725 The anchor of the show then showed Guy mugshots of 0:07:49.805 --> 0:07:51.725 two men who were arrested as part of a sex 0:07:51.765 --> 0:07:54.565 trafficking ring, and Guy said that two of the people 0:07:54.605 --> 0:07:57.085 in the pictures looked like the young men he had 0:07:57.085 --> 0:08:01.485 seen with Ebbie. Now, those same men were arrested and 0:08:01.525 --> 0:08:05.005 they were charged with sex trafficking, but police were able 0:08:05.045 --> 0:08:06.965 to determine that they were out of state at the time, 0:08:07.325 --> 0:08:11.045 and I had nothing to do with Ebbie's case. And 0:08:11.085 --> 0:08:16.085 then there's Guy's dash cam footage. Remember Monty told us this. 0:08:16.605 --> 0:08:20.725 He had seen her there before in this vehicle with 0:08:20.885 --> 0:08:25.485 a black male. And he told us that he had 0:08:25.485 --> 0:08:28.365 he had a dash cam in his car and he 0:08:28.445 --> 0:08:32.605 had recorded this, and I said, oh great. He said, well, no, 0:08:33.005 --> 0:08:36.805 it's not great. He said, one day, I come in 0:08:36.925 --> 0:08:43.565 to download video from that night's work and the computer 0:08:43.765 --> 0:08:48.765 said it would not read this device. Sometime in the 0:08:48.765 --> 0:08:52.365 months after Ebbie disappeared and before Monty got on the case, 0:08:53.245 --> 0:08:57.725 guy's computer broke. Well aster was a computer away in 0:08:57.805 --> 0:09:02.365 the trash. They took his computer into Warrior's wife works 0:09:02.445 --> 0:09:05.245 to their it. Guy and a guy told him Bash, 0:09:06.765 --> 0:09:09.605 the computer was tried. It was no good. The best 0:09:09.605 --> 0:09:13.445 saying you could do is get another computer. Inst When 0:09:13.645 --> 0:09:17.725 we talked about this incident earlier, we kind of skated 0:09:17.765 --> 0:09:20.685 by it, But the fact that he threw his computer 0:09:20.765 --> 0:09:24.405 away really bothered Mike and me. If you knew that 0:09:24.445 --> 0:09:27.165 crucial footage was on there, surely like what else was 0:09:27.205 --> 0:09:31.245 on the dash cam footage? Did he like, at what 0:09:31.285 --> 0:09:33.805 point did he throw the computer away? I guess Monty 0:09:33.885 --> 0:09:36.965 was saying that at the time that he he the 0:09:37.005 --> 0:09:39.445 computer was already thrown away. But it's like, yeah, because 0:09:39.445 --> 0:09:41.445 otherwise the police could have even if they didn't think 0:09:41.445 --> 0:09:43.325 there was anything on it, they still could have taken 0:09:43.365 --> 0:09:46.525 it and forensically processed it. As our week and Little 0:09:46.605 --> 0:09:50.405 Rock progressed, I got more and more frustrated. You don't 0:09:50.405 --> 0:09:52.365 throw data away like that. You don't throw a computer 0:09:52.405 --> 0:09:55.365 away with stuff that can be used in a murder investigation, 0:09:55.565 --> 0:09:58.765 Like even if even if you don't think it's it's usable, 0:09:58.845 --> 0:10:00.845 surely you give it to law enforcement and go, hey, 0:10:00.885 --> 0:10:03.045 I've got a computer here that has dash camera footage 0:10:03.045 --> 0:10:08.165 on it. Can somebody pull it? Yeah? Absolutely, If you 0:10:08.205 --> 0:10:10.205 were as trying to be as helpful as you say 0:10:10.245 --> 0:10:13.365 you are, you would have turned over that information right 0:10:13.405 --> 0:10:16.405 away or at least kept it, you know, like not, 0:10:16.685 --> 0:10:19.405 you don't throw especially I mean, I just don't believe 0:10:19.405 --> 0:10:22.205 that at all, and even as we were driving over 0:10:22.245 --> 0:10:25.165 to See's house, right before we talked to his mom, 0:10:25.205 --> 0:10:28.045 the security guard was still the main thing on my mind. 0:10:29.485 --> 0:10:32.805 The questions about the security guard that I have right 0:10:32.805 --> 0:10:36.085 now that just need to be clarified are what was 0:10:36.125 --> 0:10:41.205 the exact order of events regarding who reported that car missing? 0:10:41.645 --> 0:10:44.765 What does the security guard tell people about Ebby and 0:10:44.805 --> 0:10:46.965 the guys he said he saw with. What were the 0:10:46.965 --> 0:10:51.045 exact details of that interaction. I'd like to know that also. 0:10:51.405 --> 0:10:53.125 I would like him to tell us the story about 0:10:53.245 --> 0:11:05.765 what happened to that data. We'll be right back while 0:11:05.765 --> 0:11:09.885 we're unraveling all this. I talked to ebbie stepdad, Michael again, 0:11:11.085 --> 0:11:12.885 Remember when I was down in the manhole and you 0:11:13.005 --> 0:11:17.085 said something about ask her if the security guard, Ask 0:11:17.085 --> 0:11:20.205 the security guard if he like ran kids off from 0:11:20.205 --> 0:11:24.605 down there? Do you remember where you heard that I'd 0:11:24.645 --> 0:11:27.605 had a conversation. I'm trying to remember if that came 0:11:27.645 --> 0:11:34.125 Torectley from Guy or if it came through Monty Monty Vickers. 0:11:34.205 --> 0:11:38.085 It'd either be from Guy or Money Vickers. And I 0:11:38.205 --> 0:11:40.325 hadn't had to be honest, I didn't raise a bunch 0:11:40.325 --> 0:11:42.645 of red flags about that early on in the deal 0:11:43.085 --> 0:11:47.885 of the investigation. This seems very strange to me. There 0:11:47.885 --> 0:11:51.525 are woods everywhere. If kids want to go somewhere for privacy, 0:11:52.005 --> 0:11:54.965 or they could just hang out in their cars, why 0:11:55.005 --> 0:12:00.205 would they crawl down into a dirty, slimy manhole. And also, 0:12:00.365 --> 0:12:03.725 when we talked to Eric, we specifically asked about this, 0:12:04.165 --> 0:12:06.685 and he said that no one goes down into that manhole. 0:12:07.405 --> 0:12:09.245 You said that when y'all were hanging out, I mean, 0:12:09.245 --> 0:12:11.805 people would like hang out and drink and things like that, 0:12:11.845 --> 0:12:14.325 but you never saw anyone like in the manhole doing 0:12:14.365 --> 0:12:19.885 stuff like who was disgusting. Is not something that you 0:12:19.885 --> 0:12:25.925 know people want to do. It strikes me as odd 0:12:25.965 --> 0:12:29.645 that this entire time we've been warned about bad people 0:12:29.685 --> 0:12:33.205 from across town, when more and more the evidence is 0:12:33.245 --> 0:12:36.125 pointing to someone who was very familiar with Shalmant Park, 0:12:36.645 --> 0:12:39.685 who was either from there or who went there regularly. 0:12:40.725 --> 0:12:43.405 I've been doing a deep dive into crime scene staging 0:12:43.965 --> 0:12:47.325 into investigating the crime scene and seeing what it can 0:12:47.365 --> 0:12:50.405 tell us about the perpetrator of the crime and their motives, 0:12:50.925 --> 0:12:52.885 since I believe that it played a crucial role in 0:12:52.885 --> 0:12:56.685 this case. Whoever hid Ebbie's body in that pipe had 0:12:56.685 --> 0:12:58.965 a reason for doing it. If it had been a 0:12:58.965 --> 0:13:03.125 friend who was there when she accidentally overdosed, I believe 0:13:03.285 --> 0:13:06.325 that they would have run away at to Mike about this. 0:13:07.485 --> 0:13:11.085 Usually if somebody overdoses and somebody else overdoses, people just leave, 0:13:11.725 --> 0:13:14.085 you know, at least they run away, you know, unless 0:13:14.245 --> 0:13:17.325 unless you've done something to someone where you don't want 0:13:17.325 --> 0:13:21.525 to get caught. Yeah. And I mean, well, if it 0:13:21.565 --> 0:13:23.405 was a person she'd been doing drugs with two things, 0:13:23.485 --> 0:13:25.805 One they wouldn't have known where that pipe was in 0:13:25.845 --> 0:13:27.765 that park and being able to like drag her down 0:13:27.805 --> 0:13:30.525 there like that, and it was someone on drugs, I 0:13:30.525 --> 0:13:32.205 feel like they would have stolen her money and the 0:13:32.285 --> 0:13:37.045 rest of her drugs. Yeah, I agree. There is a 0:13:37.085 --> 0:13:39.325 massive amount of risk involved in getting rid of a 0:13:39.325 --> 0:13:43.325 body to take the time to remove her body from 0:13:43.365 --> 0:13:47.245 her car and then either open the manhole cover or 0:13:47.565 --> 0:13:51.045 push her body down into the storm drain, because either way, 0:13:51.325 --> 0:13:53.805 the perpetrator would then have to crawl down into the 0:13:53.885 --> 0:13:56.925 dark and shove her body into the thirteen inch wide 0:13:57.045 --> 0:14:00.965 concrete drain pipe. There are two factors to consider when 0:14:01.005 --> 0:14:03.285 an offender decides to hide a body or stage a 0:14:03.285 --> 0:14:08.205 crime scene. Familiarity and risk level. Moving the body to 0:14:08.245 --> 0:14:11.005 the pipe would have to benefit the person who did it, 0:14:11.765 --> 0:14:16.965 And we need to understand why I keep thinking about 0:14:16.965 --> 0:14:21.005 Ebbie's car again. We don't know what work was done 0:14:21.005 --> 0:14:23.605 on the car with the police. We've heard that the 0:14:23.605 --> 0:14:26.685 trunk was left open, that it rained, and that evidence 0:14:26.765 --> 0:14:30.965 was lost, but that's not confirmed. That was ninety percent 0:14:31.085 --> 0:14:38.405 of their connection to the perpetrator was was the car? Yeah, 0:14:38.685 --> 0:14:41.325 it was the car. We could have pulled hair from 0:14:41.365 --> 0:14:43.965 the car. You could have pulled Prince from the car. 0:14:45.005 --> 0:14:47.765 You could have at least been able to identify what 0:14:47.885 --> 0:14:51.845 people based on Prince had been in the car exactly, 0:14:53.005 --> 0:14:56.485 and especially if she had been, you know, in that 0:14:56.565 --> 0:15:00.165 car with guys meeting here, that would be crucial. Yeah, 0:15:00.205 --> 0:15:02.885 even if more than one person you know you, then 0:15:02.965 --> 0:15:05.045 that's when you start finding out when was the last 0:15:05.045 --> 0:15:07.005 time you s her and blah blah blah blah blah, 0:15:07.005 --> 0:15:10.285 and the questioning happens, and then you know, methodically build 0:15:10.325 --> 0:15:14.885 your list of suspects based off of time. But also 0:15:15.045 --> 0:15:18.325 we need a better understanding of why the car was 0:15:18.405 --> 0:15:21.405 parked in the place it was. We've heard that it 0:15:21.445 --> 0:15:24.245 was backed into a space in the back of Shawmont Park, 0:15:26.765 --> 0:15:29.925 we're there with Laurie and Mike's going to use Gabby's 0:15:29.965 --> 0:15:34.245 car to recreate the car's position. Ebby step dad. Michael 0:15:34.285 --> 0:15:37.045 is on the phone, and he explains where the car 0:15:37.205 --> 0:15:40.125 was based on what he knows from the neighbor who 0:15:40.165 --> 0:15:43.805 called the abandoned car into the police. Think or the 0:15:43.885 --> 0:15:48.885 edge of the opening edge. Lee told me it was 0:15:48.965 --> 0:15:52.525 backed in that the back right tier was there. He 0:15:52.565 --> 0:15:55.045 needs to come over a spot. The car was not 0:15:55.165 --> 0:15:58.085 parked in front of the drainage thing. If you're looking 0:15:58.205 --> 0:16:01.085 at the drainage opening, it was to the right of it, 0:16:01.725 --> 0:16:05.205 so he needs to move it over a full parking space. Mike, 0:16:05.725 --> 0:16:09.405 the car in a little bit closer to it, and 0:16:09.445 --> 0:16:11.605 it was backed all the way up against the curb. 0:16:12.485 --> 0:16:15.605 So the car is backed in all the way with 0:16:15.645 --> 0:16:18.925 the tire close to the curb. There's a spot right 0:16:18.965 --> 0:16:21.725 in front of the drain We're in the spot just 0:16:21.765 --> 0:16:25.605 to the right of that. While we're at the park, 0:16:26.085 --> 0:16:28.085 we get a few more details about the state of 0:16:28.085 --> 0:16:31.165 the car. We've heard that the car was kind of 0:16:31.165 --> 0:16:34.885 a wreck inside with all of Ebie's belongings strown out everywhere. 0:16:35.685 --> 0:16:39.045 Michael tells us something else. When Lee saw the car, 0:16:39.845 --> 0:16:43.525 there was a towel and the towel was behind the car. 0:16:44.125 --> 0:16:45.685 I don't know. I don't know if the cow was 0:16:45.765 --> 0:16:47.645 on the ground. I think the cow was on the 0:16:47.645 --> 0:16:52.605 ground right by the wheels and I understanding behind the car. No, 0:16:52.845 --> 0:16:55.965 behind the side of the wheel, on the concrete, on 0:16:56.605 --> 0:17:01.405 the asphalt. Okay, why was this towel outside the car? 0:17:02.365 --> 0:17:05.085 We need to get more information about how it was positioned. 0:17:06.925 --> 0:17:10.285 Laurie says that the driver's seat was pushed back. We 0:17:10.325 --> 0:17:13.525 can't confirm this with the police, and again, we don't 0:17:13.605 --> 0:17:16.565 know how the car was processed. But if that is true, 0:17:17.125 --> 0:17:19.685 it points to someone moving the car to that spot. 0:17:20.725 --> 0:17:24.925 Because Ebby was tiny, Eric told us that she never 0:17:25.045 --> 0:17:32.165 drove with a seat pushback. She used to say, also, 0:17:32.445 --> 0:17:35.165 what were the odds of someone in Ebby's impaired condition 0:17:35.925 --> 0:17:38.965 being able to back perfectly into a parking spot like that? 0:17:41.045 --> 0:17:43.965 After we backed the car in, Mike and I walked 0:17:44.005 --> 0:17:47.205 to the entrance to the park. Shalmant Park is small, 0:17:47.965 --> 0:17:51.405 but once we reached the street, you can barely see 0:17:51.525 --> 0:17:54.765 the top of Gabby's car, especially as it's getting dark. 0:17:55.165 --> 0:18:00.525 It's getting dark. If all you can see is barely 0:18:02.085 --> 0:18:06.085 the top of this from over there. You know, if 0:18:06.125 --> 0:18:11.485 I'm if I'm down here doing stuff, you're not going 0:18:11.525 --> 0:18:13.885 to see anything to me. Also, as you just did that, 0:18:13.925 --> 0:18:16.285 I'm thinking, like, okay, the car being backed right there, 0:18:16.765 --> 0:18:20.285 you're very close to the entrance. You're also concealed by 0:18:20.325 --> 0:18:22.925 the car because this is about the same side, like 0:18:23.005 --> 0:18:24.605 close to the sides of her car. Even though you're 0:18:24.605 --> 0:18:27.405 a big guy, like you're still totally concealed. Yeah, So 0:18:27.445 --> 0:18:29.725 it's like it's just you know, it makes a lot 0:18:29.765 --> 0:18:33.045 of sense. Yeah. I almost bet you if you rode 0:18:33.085 --> 0:18:35.605 with Laurie and just you know, if you did a 0:18:35.605 --> 0:18:37.525 circle around a loop and you just kind of drove 0:18:37.885 --> 0:18:40.805 drove by, you probably either would just see the top 0:18:40.845 --> 0:18:42.885 or you wouldn't even see the top of this car. Yeah. 0:18:45.285 --> 0:18:49.365 Whoever parked this car was familiar with the area and 0:18:49.405 --> 0:18:52.445 they knew this parking spot gave them cover from the street. 0:18:54.165 --> 0:18:57.125 Mike and I decide to talk to Monty again. This 0:18:57.205 --> 0:19:01.045 time we asked him specifically about any information he got 0:19:01.085 --> 0:19:03.965 from guy about the position of the car, and what 0:19:04.005 --> 0:19:08.085 he says next shocks us. What about do you remember 0:19:08.125 --> 0:19:11.525 what he told you about the car, like where it 0:19:11.725 --> 0:19:15.405 was it was backed? In. As you pull in there, 0:19:15.525 --> 0:19:18.605 there's a kind of a ferry there, and the car 0:19:18.805 --> 0:19:21.085 was sitting right here. If you go in there, it 0:19:21.085 --> 0:19:23.805 would have been on your right. That's the way gud 0:19:23.965 --> 0:19:28.085 described it to us. As Monty is showing us where 0:19:28.085 --> 0:19:31.045 the car was parked, I look at Mike, and even 0:19:31.085 --> 0:19:34.645 though we both keep our expressions neutral, I'm positive that 0:19:34.725 --> 0:19:38.365 he's thinking the same thing that I am. What because 0:19:38.405 --> 0:19:41.245 Monty is showing us that the car was parked at 0:19:41.245 --> 0:19:44.285 the front of the parking lot. Now, we've always heard 0:19:44.325 --> 0:19:45.925 that the car was found in the back of the 0:19:45.965 --> 0:19:49.805 parking lot, So why would guy tell Monny that it 0:19:49.845 --> 0:19:54.205 was parked in the front. Maybe Monty isn't remembering correctly. 0:19:55.205 --> 0:20:00.085 Mike asked him to draw him out. He's very clearing. 0:20:01.165 --> 0:20:04.925 Where's the parking area. That's the parking area, okay, yeah, 0:20:04.965 --> 0:20:09.325 and then there's the manhole cover. Okay, right there, right 0:20:09.445 --> 0:20:13.565 right there where that car he is there I drain pipes. 0:20:14.325 --> 0:20:17.485 It's right on the yes tree, right down there. Again, 0:20:18.045 --> 0:20:20.565 he's saying that Ebby's car was in the front part 0:20:20.605 --> 0:20:22.845 of the lot, in an area where it would have 0:20:22.885 --> 0:20:26.125 been visible from the street. Okay, thank you, Yeah, of 0:20:26.165 --> 0:20:30.045 course we were parked right here because I was waiting 0:20:30.085 --> 0:20:33.765 on him when he came in and I did interview 0:20:33.805 --> 0:20:38.885 on the hood of my vehicle right here. So what 0:20:39.085 --> 0:20:42.165 happened to the car? Did guys see it before Ebbie 0:20:42.205 --> 0:20:44.565 moved it while she was still there and still alive? 0:20:45.245 --> 0:20:50.485 And if not, why was this discrepancy never mentioned before? Again, 0:20:51.085 --> 0:20:54.805 this is money talking about this from memory. We need 0:20:54.845 --> 0:20:58.845 the original diagram he had from twenty sixteen. Fine, do 0:20:58.885 --> 0:21:00.485 you have do you remember? I mean, I know in 0:21:00.565 --> 0:21:02.685 your boxes of stuff. Do you know if you still 0:21:02.725 --> 0:21:06.325 have that diagram? It's all my file. I've kind of 0:21:06.325 --> 0:21:10.365 cleaned my office out and my files upstairs and show 0:21:10.485 --> 0:21:14.405 I thought her file were Sarah. Could we need to 0:21:14.405 --> 0:21:17.125 get our hands on Monty's files to confirm all this? 0:21:17.965 --> 0:21:20.405 But at this point, I feel like I have enough 0:21:20.445 --> 0:21:24.725 information and a lot of questions that need answering. It's 0:21:24.765 --> 0:21:27.565 time to talk to Guy Hooper. I give him a 0:21:27.605 --> 0:21:36.485 call and he picks up. We'll be right back. Hi. 0:21:36.685 --> 0:21:40.405 Is this guy Guy Hooper just picked up my phone call? Hi? 0:21:40.565 --> 0:21:44.765 This is Catherine Townsend. I am actually reaching out to 0:21:44.805 --> 0:21:47.285 you because I've been talking to Laurie Journe again and 0:21:47.325 --> 0:21:49.805 I've been working. After I explained to him what we're doing. 0:21:50.405 --> 0:21:52.645 The first thing that guy says to me is that 0:21:52.685 --> 0:21:55.725 he's retired. Now, I said, I know, but we really 0:21:55.805 --> 0:21:58.565 want to talk to you. He then tells me he 0:21:58.685 --> 0:22:02.085 just got out of surgery, but he asked when would 0:22:02.085 --> 0:22:04.845 be a good time to talk. Well, I mean we could. 0:22:04.925 --> 0:22:06.885 We could come to you if that would work for you, 0:22:06.925 --> 0:22:09.205 and I mean you tell us. Guy says he can 0:22:09.285 --> 0:22:12.085 meet on Saturday. We're supposed to head out of Little 0:22:12.125 --> 0:22:15.205 Rock by then, but I know how important this interview is. 0:22:16.005 --> 0:22:19.685 This might be our only chance to talk face to face. Yeah, 0:22:19.925 --> 0:22:22.325 that could work for me. I could do it on Saturday. 0:22:22.725 --> 0:22:25.325 We could meet really pretty much anywhere in Little Rock, 0:22:25.605 --> 0:22:29.565 West Little Rock. Where are you? He's located in North 0:22:29.605 --> 0:22:32.245 Little Rock, but he doesn't want to meet at his home. 0:22:32.925 --> 0:22:36.565 He suggests the Eyehop near McCain Mall. We confirm to 0:22:36.645 --> 0:22:39.485 meet at two pm on Saturday. All right, thank you. 0:22:40.445 --> 0:22:44.685 The call with guy was short, only three minutes long. Yeah, 0:22:44.765 --> 0:22:47.805 I'm probably just going to come back and do that myself. 0:22:48.925 --> 0:22:52.405 I gotta talk to that guy. Yeah, it could be 0:22:52.485 --> 0:22:56.965 totally I mean, look, I can't like, no, we should 0:22:57.085 --> 0:23:02.045 we should talk to him. The next day, I reach 0:23:02.165 --> 0:23:04.885 back out to Guy to confirm our meeting. I'll leave 0:23:04.925 --> 0:23:07.565 a message and then another one, and he doesn't get 0:23:07.565 --> 0:23:10.605 back to me. I then reach out to Monty to 0:23:10.605 --> 0:23:14.365 see if he can get in contact with Guy. No luck. 0:23:15.285 --> 0:23:20.445 The next day, I call Guy again. Nothing. It's Wednesday, 0:23:20.925 --> 0:23:23.605 the day before our flights go out. We have a 0:23:23.605 --> 0:23:26.805 meeting with Monty and at the end he shows us 0:23:26.845 --> 0:23:30.765 a text that he just got from Guy. In that text, 0:23:31.245 --> 0:23:34.405 Guy says he's planning to cancel the meeting with us. 0:23:36.525 --> 0:23:40.245 I immediately call him, but he doesn't respond, and ever 0:23:40.405 --> 0:23:43.205 since then, he has never picked up any of my 0:23:43.325 --> 0:23:50.885 calls or responded to any of my texts. All this 0:23:51.005 --> 0:23:54.845 happened in December, and since then he seems to have 0:23:54.925 --> 0:24:00.085 completely ghosted this investigation. But then in March, Laurie called me. 0:24:00.725 --> 0:24:03.165 She told me she had spoken to produce her she 0:24:03.245 --> 0:24:07.245 knows on the Doctor Phil show. Laurie and Michael had 0:24:07.325 --> 0:24:11.525 been on Doctor Phil twice, once in twenty seventeen when 0:24:11.525 --> 0:24:14.965 Ebbie was still missing, and once in twenty eighteen after 0:24:15.005 --> 0:24:18.325 her body was found. Laurie can't make another trip to 0:24:18.445 --> 0:24:21.045 la right now, so she asked me if I would 0:24:21.045 --> 0:24:23.925 go to Los Angeles and do the show. I immediately 0:24:23.965 --> 0:24:27.085 said yes, and I started working with the Doctor Phil producers. 0:24:27.525 --> 0:24:29.925 I told the producers everything I knew and said that 0:24:29.965 --> 0:24:33.885 I would do anything to help this investigation, so included 0:24:33.925 --> 0:24:36.725 in that, of course, with my questions about Guy Hooper. 0:24:37.325 --> 0:24:41.565