WEBVTT - Mary Gauthier: Saved By A Song 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:28.156 Pushkin. Mary Goshet is a folk singer songwriter whose songs 0:00:28.356 --> 0:00:33.236 have quite literally saved her life. Born a bastard child 0:00:34.196 --> 0:00:39.716 in New Orleans, it's two old woman I have never seen. 0:00:42.276 --> 0:00:46.676 I don't know if she ever held me. All I 0:00:46.956 --> 0:00:54.316 nasees she like go me. Writing music didn't come easily. 0:00:54.436 --> 0:00:57.516 To go shat. She began abusing drugs and alcohol as 0:00:57.516 --> 0:01:00.796 a young girl growing up in Louisiana. After years of 0:01:00.836 --> 0:01:04.476 struggling with addiction, Goshe got clean at age twenty seven 0:01:04.756 --> 0:01:08.516 after getting arrested for a dui. She picked up a 0:01:08.596 --> 0:01:11.516 dusty old guitar not long after and began to frequent 0:01:11.596 --> 0:01:15.036 open mics around Boston, where she eventually found the community 0:01:15.076 --> 0:01:19.596 in Connection she craved. Mary Gosche released her debut album, 0:01:19.636 --> 0:01:23.356 Dixie Kitchen in nineteen ninety seven. She moved to Nashville 0:01:23.436 --> 0:01:25.876 not long after, and a sense become known for her 0:01:25.916 --> 0:01:29.956 ability to write vivid, literary style lyrics that pull from 0:01:29.956 --> 0:01:34.676 her past trauma, loss, and heartbreak. Early this year, Goshe 0:01:34.796 --> 0:01:37.636 published the book Saved by a Song, The Art and 0:01:37.756 --> 0:01:42.156 Healing Power of Songwriting, which documents her process and inspiration. 0:01:43.236 --> 0:01:46.316 On today's episode, Bruce Heath them talks to Mary Gosche 0:01:46.756 --> 0:01:49.316 about how the same determination that once drove her to 0:01:49.436 --> 0:01:53.356 drink now powers her songwriting. She also talks about how 0:01:53.396 --> 0:01:57.476 conversations with young US veterans inspired her Grammy nominated album 0:01:57.796 --> 0:02:03.116 Rifles and Rosary Beads, and Goshe recalls seeing one particularly moving, 0:02:03.156 --> 0:02:06.276 open mic performance that inspired her to become the artist 0:02:06.396 --> 0:02:12.836 she is today. This is broken record liner notes for 0:02:12.876 --> 0:02:21.036 the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce Utlam and 0:02:21.156 --> 0:02:25.876 Mary Gotchet. Your great book Saved by a Song, the 0:02:25.956 --> 0:02:29.556 art and healing power of songwriting. It is a great 0:02:29.596 --> 0:02:33.116 guide to songwriting. However, when you flip it open and 0:02:33.156 --> 0:02:35.036 you go to the epigraph, I'm going to read the epigraph. 0:02:35.676 --> 0:02:38.276 So the epigraph is from the Gospel of Thomas. If 0:02:38.316 --> 0:02:41.076 you bring forth what is within you, what you bring 0:02:41.116 --> 0:02:43.956 forth will save you. If you do not bring forth 0:02:44.036 --> 0:02:46.596 what is within you, what you do not bring forth 0:02:46.636 --> 0:02:49.716 will destroy you. I thought way to take the pressure 0:02:49.716 --> 0:02:54.836 off there. I interpret it as meaning is that music 0:02:54.836 --> 0:02:59.796 and song is this opportunity to bring forth what's very 0:02:59.836 --> 0:03:04.076 hard to articulate any other way. And a lot of 0:03:04.076 --> 0:03:09.916 these things are deeply embedded in trauma. For me, I've 0:03:09.996 --> 0:03:12.916 used music and song to move trauma through my cells 0:03:13.036 --> 0:03:17.836 and out of my body. If we carry our trauma 0:03:17.996 --> 0:03:23.116 without working through our trauma, we find often that it 0:03:23.156 --> 0:03:28.116 gets heavier, not lighter. And so I see that passage 0:03:28.196 --> 0:03:31.796 is hopeful. You didn't come to songwriting the way a 0:03:31.796 --> 0:03:33.876 lot of people I interview. D tell me a little 0:03:33.916 --> 0:03:37.196 bit about when songwriting really started for you. Yeah, I 0:03:37.236 --> 0:03:41.036 didn't start writing songs until my thirties. I went to 0:03:41.116 --> 0:03:46.156 chef's school and trained to be a better cook. While 0:03:46.196 --> 0:03:48.396 I was in the restaurant business, I had found some 0:03:48.476 --> 0:03:51.836 backers to open a place in Boston and then another 0:03:51.876 --> 0:03:55.516 place in Boston. I got sober when I was twenty seven, 0:03:56.076 --> 0:03:59.556 after getting arrested for drunk driving opening night at the 0:03:59.596 --> 0:04:03.516 second restaurant. And after I got sober, I finished chef 0:04:03.596 --> 0:04:07.956 school and I started to go to open mics. And 0:04:07.996 --> 0:04:10.596 it started with one of my waitresses at the restaurant. 0:04:10.876 --> 0:04:13.156 Had all this time on my hands. After I got sober, 0:04:13.196 --> 0:04:15.436 I didn't. It felt like a day was forty years long. 0:04:15.676 --> 0:04:18.036 Wait a second, you were running two restaurants, Yeah, but 0:04:18.156 --> 0:04:20.236 still drinking and drugs took a lot of time. What 0:04:20.276 --> 0:04:23.996 you're doing, it took it was the way I completed 0:04:24.076 --> 0:04:29.836 my day, and without that completion ritual, I needed a 0:04:29.836 --> 0:04:33.796 way to complete my day. And I was brought to 0:04:33.836 --> 0:04:36.876 an open mic and it was a lightbulb moment for me. 0:04:36.916 --> 0:04:38.676 I was like, ah, I want to do this. I 0:04:38.756 --> 0:04:40.916 want to I want to write a song and get 0:04:40.956 --> 0:04:43.636 on that stage and play here. It was at Club 0:04:43.636 --> 0:04:46.996 Pass simon Hervard Square, and so I had an old 0:04:46.996 --> 0:04:50.316 guitar that I'd been traveling around with for years, but 0:04:50.396 --> 0:04:52.716 it was dusty and old and the strings were rusty, 0:04:52.796 --> 0:04:56.916 and I needed to change the strings and rebuild callouses 0:04:56.956 --> 0:05:00.556 and like put put it in my hands and find 0:05:00.596 --> 0:05:05.556 my way to chords again. And it was homecoming of sorts, 0:05:05.556 --> 0:05:09.716 and I took to it really passionately. And what happened was, 0:05:10.756 --> 0:05:14.596 you know, I'm an addict. So I went at open 0:05:14.716 --> 0:05:18.956 mics like an attic wood and what I found there 0:05:19.876 --> 0:05:22.396 was kind of what I was looking for all along 0:05:22.396 --> 0:05:26.676 with drugs and alcohol, which is community and connection, hanging 0:05:26.716 --> 0:05:31.396 out with other songwriters and artists and performance poets and 0:05:31.636 --> 0:05:37.476 just a bunch of wackos and misfits and beautiful crazy people. 0:05:38.116 --> 0:05:41.596 I found my people. I found community, and I wasn't 0:05:41.716 --> 0:05:45.836 drunk so I connected in a way that didn't disappear 0:05:45.876 --> 0:05:50.356 the next morning. I was really rebuilding my life, and 0:05:50.756 --> 0:05:53.676 music and song became the tap root, I think, to 0:05:53.796 --> 0:05:57.596 my sobriety and recovery and to my life. And here 0:05:57.636 --> 0:05:59.796 we are thirty one years later and it still is. 0:06:00.276 --> 0:06:02.996 So tell me there are people, a lot of people 0:06:03.076 --> 0:06:06.276 probably listening that have dusty guitars at home who can 0:06:06.316 --> 0:06:10.236 play a few chords. Where did you start with writing 0:06:10.236 --> 0:06:12.476 a song? That first day? I said, Okay, I'm gonna 0:06:12.516 --> 0:06:14.356 do you remember that first day when I was like 0:06:14.956 --> 0:06:17.076 kind of I didn't have any idea what I was 0:06:17.156 --> 0:06:19.996 doing or how to do it or but I'd seen 0:06:20.036 --> 0:06:22.876 a room full of people do it. And I started 0:06:22.876 --> 0:06:26.316 going to that open mic every week, and I watched, 0:06:27.196 --> 0:06:30.276 you know, nervous people, people who really weren't very good 0:06:30.316 --> 0:06:32.796 at it, people who were just getting started, people who 0:06:32.836 --> 0:06:36.836 were older than me, which was great relief to me 0:06:36.876 --> 0:06:39.996 because I felt old at thirty one thirty two, however 0:06:40.076 --> 0:06:42.756 old I was there for me. It was a matter 0:06:42.996 --> 0:06:47.996 of finding a melody and some words and a handful 0:06:47.996 --> 0:06:51.996 of chords that my handkerd shape and saying something. And 0:06:52.076 --> 0:06:54.996 it took me quite a while to figure out what 0:06:55.036 --> 0:06:58.676 it is I wanted to be saying. I finally made 0:06:58.756 --> 0:07:00.756 up nine or ten songs and I made a little 0:07:00.756 --> 0:07:04.556 demo record. When I look back on that, I think, well, 0:07:04.556 --> 0:07:08.356 you know, I'm imitating my heroes like most people in 0:07:08.396 --> 0:07:12.156 the beginning. In retrospect, if you listen to that first 0:07:12.196 --> 0:07:16.396 Bob Dylan record, he's definitely imitating his heroes, from Dave 0:07:16.476 --> 0:07:18.716 von Ronck to Raandland Jack Elliott to What He Got. 0:07:18.716 --> 0:07:21.116 Three has one original Dylan song on that first record, 0:07:21.196 --> 0:07:24.876 and you can see the promise that he has fulfilled. 0:07:24.916 --> 0:07:31.076 And then some The beginning is I think naturally about 0:07:31.756 --> 0:07:34.276 trying to figure out what you're supposed to be talking 0:07:34.316 --> 0:07:37.036 about and what you're supposed to sound like. It's interesting 0:07:37.036 --> 0:07:38.996 because you know, we're in Nashville. In fact, we're a 0:07:38.996 --> 0:07:41.796 long music row where a lot of people, you know, 0:07:41.876 --> 0:07:44.876 they really learned not by figuring out what they had 0:07:44.916 --> 0:07:47.156 to say, but by just the craft of it. Like 0:07:47.276 --> 0:07:48.636 I got to write a song because this is how 0:07:48.676 --> 0:07:50.596 I make a living, and I'm going to try and 0:07:50.596 --> 0:07:53.476 sell it to somebody. Right, that really didn't go through 0:07:53.516 --> 0:07:55.756 that for you. It was it was the subject had 0:07:55.796 --> 0:07:58.876 to come. Yeah, Well, two things One I didn't have 0:07:58.956 --> 0:08:01.076 to make a living at it. I owned two restaurants 0:08:01.836 --> 0:08:03.956 and I made a good living, so it wasn't about 0:08:03.996 --> 0:08:06.316 money for me. And the other thing is I never 0:08:06.356 --> 0:08:11.676 played in covers bands. I didn't have a large vocabulary 0:08:12.076 --> 0:08:17.276 musically really G C, D, E, E A B. I mean, 0:08:17.316 --> 0:08:20.356 there's just that one four or five chord progression over 0:08:20.396 --> 0:08:22.716 and over again and get fancy to throw a minor in. 0:08:23.476 --> 0:08:28.236 Have you pushed yourself since then? Because artists like Paul Simon, 0:08:28.276 --> 0:08:31.236 particularly in the seventies when he was suddenly by himself, 0:08:31.956 --> 0:08:34.756 he learned music theory because he thought, I just don't 0:08:34.756 --> 0:08:37.196 have enough chords for what I want to do. Has 0:08:37.236 --> 0:08:39.996 that been a kind of lifetime thing for you too? No? 0:08:40.396 --> 0:08:45.876 I can work within my limitations and musically still continue 0:08:46.236 --> 0:08:50.316 to find new melodies to wrap around where I really 0:08:50.476 --> 0:08:55.436 want to go. That challenges me the most is lyrically, 0:08:55.476 --> 0:08:59.756 the places I haven't been before. I want to articulate 0:09:00.516 --> 0:09:03.796 what I'm going through. The challenge for me is to 0:09:03.916 --> 0:09:08.996 not repeat myself. And some people will find that deepening 0:09:09.276 --> 0:09:12.196 knowledge of music helps them to do that. For me, 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:16.636 deepening my knowledge of myself and the world and spirituality 0:09:16.676 --> 0:09:21.276 and faith and in particularly love. That is a full 0:09:21.316 --> 0:09:25.796 time job for me, as someone who has dealt with 0:09:26.796 --> 0:09:31.076 a deep seated sense of unworthiness for most of my life, 0:09:31.676 --> 0:09:35.316 learning how to love and be loved. Man, you know 0:09:35.356 --> 0:09:39.036 I'll be doing that for whatever time I have left. 0:09:39.196 --> 0:09:42.476 Is probably not enough to get real good at it. 0:09:42.476 --> 0:09:45.156 It's going to take another lifetime. Probably. Let me ask 0:09:45.196 --> 0:09:47.916 you when you say lyrics finding the right words, like, 0:09:47.956 --> 0:09:50.236 how do you find these works? Are you either kind 0:09:50.276 --> 0:09:52.556 of I've always got a notebook with me or are 0:09:52.596 --> 0:09:55.516 you the kind of sit down every day type. I'm 0:09:55.516 --> 0:09:59.476 on the computers now. Really? Yeah, I wrote on legal 0:09:59.516 --> 0:10:03.116 pads for years and I still have just huge for 0:10:03.396 --> 0:10:06.396 legal pads worth of edits that I bring sometimes to 0:10:06.436 --> 0:10:08.756 my workshops when I'm working with songwriters to go, look, 0:10:09.276 --> 0:10:11.796 this is how much I edited this song. You think 0:10:11.956 --> 0:10:15.636 you think your first past is the one like this 0:10:15.716 --> 0:10:18.116 is how much I had to get rid of to 0:10:18.156 --> 0:10:21.076 get to that. When the computers came along and I 0:10:21.076 --> 0:10:24.836 started writing on computers. Maybe some things get lost. I 0:10:24.836 --> 0:10:28.476 don't just delete it. It's a long running document, but 0:10:28.556 --> 0:10:31.956 I do cut and paste and use the laptop as 0:10:31.956 --> 0:10:35.876 I write these days. Definitely, you're a healthy consumer of 0:10:35.876 --> 0:10:38.996 Amazon Cloud Services. Is what you're telling a lot of stuff. 0:10:39.036 --> 0:10:42.596 There got a lot of words. What allows you to 0:10:42.596 --> 0:10:45.756 find those words? I have a thing in my gut 0:10:45.796 --> 0:10:49.596 that my very first producer, Chrit Harman, identified as the 0:10:49.596 --> 0:10:53.196 truth thometer. And I think if there's anything that that 0:10:53.356 --> 0:10:55.956 I could point to that says this is where your 0:10:55.996 --> 0:11:01.036 talent lies, that would be what I would claim is 0:11:01.076 --> 0:11:06.756 I have a truth thometer, and that truth thometer tells 0:11:06.836 --> 0:11:10.396 me when I'm not there yet. And so finding words 0:11:11.596 --> 0:11:16.836 is not hard. Finding truth is always hard, and that's 0:11:16.876 --> 0:11:20.196 what I challenge myself to do. And the truth I'm 0:11:20.196 --> 0:11:25.236 referencing is not the facts, it's emotional truth. Like really 0:11:25.276 --> 0:11:29.796 what we're talking about here, I'm always in this state 0:11:29.836 --> 0:11:32.436 of unknowing when I write, I don't I don't know, 0:11:32.516 --> 0:11:35.756 and I'm in a discovery process. What's that process? Like 0:11:36.236 --> 0:11:40.116 it's getting rid of bullshit, like that's just not quite true, 0:11:40.356 --> 0:11:43.196 or that sounds nice and you really want to sing 0:11:43.236 --> 0:11:46.516 it because it has a razzle dazzle, but it's a 0:11:47.236 --> 0:11:52.076 half truth. Sounds good, looks good, presents well out of party, 0:11:52.156 --> 0:11:54.556 but then you leave and realize nothing was said and 0:11:54.716 --> 0:11:59.076 nothing moved, and nothing really connected to all songs begin 0:11:59.476 --> 0:12:01.596 with a little bit of that for you. Oh yeah, 0:12:01.636 --> 0:12:04.236 I have to start with what I call the cocktail 0:12:04.276 --> 0:12:09.596 party conversation and then work my way into something deeper 0:12:09.716 --> 0:12:11.916 for me to finish the song. And I have a 0:12:11.956 --> 0:12:14.156 lot of songs I've started that I didn't finish. I 0:12:14.236 --> 0:12:16.916 have not finished. Do you think it's because those songs 0:12:16.956 --> 0:12:19.676 didn't have a truth or because you just couldn't find 0:12:19.716 --> 0:12:23.076 it didn't find it? I probably belonged to somebody else 0:12:23.116 --> 0:12:26.436 somewhere else. It wouldn't mind to write. I'm interested. You know. 0:12:26.516 --> 0:12:28.836 You say you've got a what did you say, a 0:12:28.876 --> 0:12:32.556 truth truthometer? You know, the flip side of that, and 0:12:32.636 --> 0:12:35.956 you said this would be the bullshit detector. Yep, uh. 0:12:36.276 --> 0:12:38.036 Do you have that for other singers? Do you hear 0:12:38.076 --> 0:12:41.996 songs and go, nice song, ain't true all the time? 0:12:42.316 --> 0:12:46.996 Oh wow? It really? Yeah, I don't believe even with 0:12:47.076 --> 0:12:49.916 famous songs, and yeah, I don't believe you. I guess 0:12:49.916 --> 0:12:53.676 I'm less interested in what the truth is in how 0:12:53.716 --> 0:12:56.596 they say it. You know, I like a lot of 0:12:56.676 --> 0:12:58.996 rock music where frankly I don't I don't have a 0:12:59.076 --> 0:13:02.716 clue what what the lyrics are even are about. I 0:13:02.756 --> 0:13:05.916 don't kind of care. That's not where I tend to 0:13:05.956 --> 0:13:08.676 put my ears. I want to hear some truth and 0:13:08.876 --> 0:13:12.036 that I'm not asking for facts. Fiction is awesome, that's 0:13:12.116 --> 0:13:15.916 actually a great way to get to the truth. What 0:13:15.956 --> 0:13:19.356 I mean is I want to believe the singer, and 0:13:20.396 --> 0:13:24.836 that is wrapped to me, wrapped around emotional truth. And 0:13:24.916 --> 0:13:30.436 so I think that there's a certain amount of vulnerability involved, 0:13:31.236 --> 0:13:34.276 a certain amount of taking a risk that's involved, and 0:13:34.316 --> 0:13:37.916 those twos tend to be universal and they tend to 0:13:38.076 --> 0:13:41.636 follow us through time. The song you guys warmed up on, 0:13:41.716 --> 0:13:43.916 which was the War after the War, Now, I know 0:13:43.996 --> 0:13:48.116 you co wrote that with people I believe whose spouses were, yeah, 0:13:48.156 --> 0:13:52.396 military spouses and best Nilson Chapman, and you know that 0:13:52.476 --> 0:13:56.756 line their landmines in the living room, eggshells on the floor. Well, 0:13:56.796 --> 0:13:59.716 that's I mean, those are just great lines, That's what 0:13:59.796 --> 0:14:02.476 those are. And you've got those throughout your songs. Is 0:14:02.516 --> 0:14:04.796 that something you do? You hear little phrases and go, 0:14:04.876 --> 0:14:09.636 oh that that works. Yeah, yeah, And That's what I'm 0:14:09.716 --> 0:14:16.836 looking for when I write, is visual that makes you 0:14:16.956 --> 0:14:19.876 see it and then feel it. Tell me the story 0:14:19.916 --> 0:14:22.396 about the guy you signed an open mic night. It's 0:14:22.396 --> 0:14:23.796 a story in your book, and I thought it was 0:14:23.836 --> 0:14:26.236 so instructive. Yeah, I call it the Farmer in the 0:14:26.236 --> 0:14:30.276 Hat story. When I was about a year or two 0:14:30.316 --> 0:14:33.436 into open mics, just very much at the beginning of 0:14:33.516 --> 0:14:37.916 learning how to write songs and play them on stage, 0:14:38.476 --> 0:14:42.636 which was for me terrifying. For quite a while. I 0:14:42.756 --> 0:14:47.196 just had serious stage fright and a sense of what 0:14:47.276 --> 0:14:48.996 am I doing up here? Every time I got up there, 0:14:48.996 --> 0:14:51.156 I was like, oh my god, well, the first time 0:14:51.196 --> 0:14:52.796 you didn't play at all? Right, the first time I 0:14:52.796 --> 0:14:55.636 couldn't even get a word out. I just completely failed. 0:14:55.996 --> 0:14:59.596 But I was brought to an open mic where it 0:14:59.636 --> 0:15:01.636 went for hours and hours and hours because it was 0:15:01.676 --> 0:15:05.036 a very popular open mic in western Massachusetts at the 0:15:05.036 --> 0:15:08.796 old Vienna Coffeehouse. One hundred and something people signed up. 0:15:09.276 --> 0:15:11.236 If you do the math at five minutes, that's a 0:15:11.236 --> 0:15:13.916 lot a lot of a lot of people and a 0:15:13.916 --> 0:15:16.476 lot of hours. And so three or four hours into 0:15:16.516 --> 0:15:18.476 this thing, waiting for our turn to play, a lot 0:15:18.516 --> 0:15:21.596 of people left, but the people that remained were steadfast 0:15:21.676 --> 0:15:24.676 and waiting for their turn on stage. And this guy 0:15:24.756 --> 0:15:29.036 gets up and he's obese, he's an overalls, he's got 0:15:29.076 --> 0:15:33.436 dirty work boots, he's wearing a straw hat, and he 0:15:33.596 --> 0:15:39.076 looks as nervous as I've felt on stage, and when 0:15:39.116 --> 0:15:41.356 they plug him in to get going, he just immediately 0:15:41.436 --> 0:15:45.436 starts strumming without finesse, and and those of us left 0:15:45.436 --> 0:15:47.636 in the audience we're like, oh, man, we're gonna have 0:15:47.716 --> 0:15:52.436 to sit through another horrible song from playing plagued by 0:15:52.436 --> 0:15:56.676 somebody who has no stage presence. And he was shaking 0:15:57.396 --> 0:16:01.076 his face, went Crimson. He was hiding under his hat, 0:16:01.316 --> 0:16:05.956 and it was not a great start. But when he 0:16:05.996 --> 0:16:08.556 got to the chorus, he's saying, I got holes I 0:16:09.156 --> 0:16:12.676 cain't fill and bills I can't pay. I'm gonna walk 0:16:12.916 --> 0:16:18.236 in the water till my hat floats away, And something 0:16:18.836 --> 0:16:23.196 went across the room. I think of it as an 0:16:23.236 --> 0:16:29.796 emotional electricity, and we all immediately let go of our 0:16:29.876 --> 0:16:34.876 judgment of this guy. And what I think occurred was empathy, 0:16:34.916 --> 0:16:40.396 which is the most powerful experience I think that art 0:16:40.436 --> 0:16:43.596 can give us, especially the art of song, is empathy. 0:16:43.636 --> 0:16:49.516 We're suddenly not only being brought to the feeling of 0:16:49.596 --> 0:16:53.316 what he's saying that we have had, but we're feeling 0:16:53.556 --> 0:16:56.956 as if we are him. We become him in that moment. 0:16:57.516 --> 0:17:02.396 And what happened was we understood instinctively he wasn't joking 0:17:03.836 --> 0:17:08.596 like he was serious, and I don't know if he 0:17:08.676 --> 0:17:12.956 was and playing suicide, but his narrator was, and we 0:17:13.036 --> 0:17:18.236 believed him, and that believing him really really moved us. 0:17:18.956 --> 0:17:23.436 When that happened, the room was his. He had us. 0:17:23.516 --> 0:17:26.036 It didn't matter that he was obese, it didn't matter 0:17:26.156 --> 0:17:29.196 that he was unwashed, it didn't matter he couldn't sing, 0:17:29.276 --> 0:17:32.196 it didn't matter he couldn't play. And he got a 0:17:32.236 --> 0:17:35.436 standing ovation from the people that were in the audience, 0:17:35.796 --> 0:17:39.036 and that burned itself into my consciousness of what I'm 0:17:39.036 --> 0:17:41.156 trying to do as a songwriter. I wanted to do 0:17:41.196 --> 0:17:43.556 what that guy did. I wanted to make people feel 0:17:43.556 --> 0:17:48.236 it and be unable to not feel it. And that's 0:17:48.316 --> 0:17:51.676 still my goal. And he gave me a way of 0:17:51.996 --> 0:17:57.436 seeing my job that wasn't contingent on music business values, 0:17:57.756 --> 0:17:59.676 which you gotta be young, you gotta be sexy, you 0:17:59.676 --> 0:18:01.836 gotta sing great, you gotta play great, you gotta be 0:18:02.076 --> 0:18:05.596 uh no, that thing there. If I can do what 0:18:05.636 --> 0:18:09.436 he did, I know I'll have a career. I know 0:18:09.516 --> 0:18:13.636 I'll have people who will want to hear what I do. 0:18:14.316 --> 0:18:17.476 But it was a great song quality, which is it 0:18:17.556 --> 0:18:20.876 was so visual. Yep. And that is what I talk 0:18:20.956 --> 0:18:26.356 about a lot, is that songs often in my way 0:18:26.356 --> 0:18:29.876 of looking at it, or like cinematic moments. There's like 0:18:29.956 --> 0:18:32.876 little films. You want to bring people into the movie 0:18:32.956 --> 0:18:36.756 so they can see themselves in your story. That's always 0:18:36.796 --> 0:18:40.516 what I'm trying to do, and then that creates emotion. 0:18:40.876 --> 0:18:43.316 Can you think of songwriters who for you always create 0:18:43.356 --> 0:18:47.956 those visual pictures? Oh god, there's so many. You talk 0:18:48.036 --> 0:18:52.276 about Sam Stone being one of your friend John always always, Now, 0:18:52.276 --> 0:18:54.916 that would be a good song, but everybody knows there's 0:18:54.916 --> 0:18:58.116 a hole in Daddy's arm where I don't think that 0:18:58.196 --> 0:19:00.836 song would be nearly as well known with that. That's 0:19:00.836 --> 0:19:02.956 the line that there's a hole in Daddy's arm where 0:19:02.996 --> 0:19:06.396 all the money goes. Yeah, oh my god, what a visual. 0:19:06.636 --> 0:19:09.036 My friend Gretchen Peters has a song called on the 0:19:09.236 --> 0:19:12.956 Us to Sink Cloud and it's about a divorce or 0:19:12.996 --> 0:19:20.156 a breakup and she she's finds herself in the church 0:19:20.356 --> 0:19:23.996 and Saint Cloud and she weeps in the arms of 0:19:24.076 --> 0:19:27.956 Jesus for the choice you made that is so much 0:19:27.996 --> 0:19:30.436 better than you broke my heart. And now I'm sad. 0:19:31.036 --> 0:19:36.036 The recitation of I'm sad in blue does nothing. It 0:19:36.436 --> 0:19:39.756 doesn't have the power. And that's just understanding how human 0:19:39.916 --> 0:19:42.556 empathy gets triggered. Give me a couple of examples from 0:19:42.556 --> 0:19:46.476 your own songwriting, where you are consciously or unconsciously thinking 0:19:46.516 --> 0:19:50.156 of that moment, the until my hat floats away, your 0:19:50.276 --> 0:19:54.196 your hat floating away moments. M Well, you know, I 0:19:54.516 --> 0:19:56.476 try to get an imagery in every song. I got 0:19:56.516 --> 0:20:00.116 one moving on through the pain. I'm waiting on another train, 0:20:01.396 --> 0:20:04.876 like we we all know, I'm not really at the 0:20:04.916 --> 0:20:07.836 train station waiting for on another train. It's a metaphor, 0:20:08.596 --> 0:20:12.516 but the tra brains always lend themselves to these, to 0:20:12.636 --> 0:20:15.196 these songs. That the train is a metaphor for so 0:20:15.236 --> 0:20:18.756 many things, the comings and goings of everything in human life. 0:20:18.756 --> 0:20:23.916 That's why there's I think, never enough trained songs. You know, 0:20:24.236 --> 0:20:27.796 working with the veterans rifles and rosary beads, you hold 0:20:27.836 --> 0:20:30.636 on to what you need, you know, I asked the 0:20:30.676 --> 0:20:32.356 young man, I wrote that with what did you see 0:20:32.396 --> 0:20:34.876 when you got off that plane? Nineteen years old kid 0:20:34.956 --> 0:20:37.996 from Austin, Texas, gone through basic and find yourself in 0:20:38.076 --> 0:20:41.436 Fallujah during the search He said, Well, there was guys 0:20:42.156 --> 0:20:47.316 holding rifles with white knuckles, and there was guys holding 0:20:47.436 --> 0:20:50.996 rosary beads and rolling them. He wasn't a Catholic, so 0:20:51.036 --> 0:20:53.836 he didn't know that that's how I was raised Catholic. 0:20:53.876 --> 0:20:56.916 You pray each bead. Each bead has a prayer attached. 0:20:57.116 --> 0:20:59.036 He said, they were rolling the beats, and so I 0:20:59.156 --> 0:21:01.956 just immediately wrote down rifles and rosary beads because that 0:21:02.036 --> 0:21:04.636 imagery is so strong, and followed it up with you 0:21:04.676 --> 0:21:07.356 hold on to what you need. And then I asked 0:21:07.436 --> 0:21:09.876 him what was it that you held on too? And 0:21:10.276 --> 0:21:12.716 there was a long pause, and I knew I had 0:21:12.716 --> 0:21:17.316 asked a hard question. Then he slowly and somewhat hesitantly 0:21:17.356 --> 0:21:21.396 said Vicadin, and I came right down into the song Vicadin, 0:21:21.716 --> 0:21:26.116 Morphine dreams, rifles and rosary beats. We'll be right back 0:21:26.156 --> 0:21:32.956 with more from Mary Goche. After a quick break, we're 0:21:32.996 --> 0:21:36.796 back with Mary Goche and Bruce had them. So how 0:21:36.796 --> 0:21:40.356 do you put it all together? Then? Like, when do 0:21:40.436 --> 0:21:43.396 you know that I've got this, I've got the order 0:21:43.476 --> 0:21:47.196 right or is it just work? It's work, yeah, and 0:21:47.276 --> 0:21:51.716 hours and hours and hours. There's a sense of rightness 0:21:52.036 --> 0:21:55.956 when it's really starting to feel done. You know. Usually 0:21:55.996 --> 0:21:59.036 I'll sleep on it and check it the next day 0:21:59.036 --> 0:22:00.876 and see if I still feel that way, and at 0:22:00.956 --> 0:22:03.836 least ninety nine percent of the time I don't. Ultimately, 0:22:03.876 --> 0:22:06.796 at the end of the day, it's a gut feeling 0:22:06.796 --> 0:22:10.156 and very hard to articulate. I was in that it 0:22:10.156 --> 0:22:15.316 took you two years to write I drink right about 0:22:15.396 --> 0:22:17.596 two years. Yeah, I had to get I had to 0:22:17.596 --> 0:22:21.036 get that bridge, and boy, that bridge took forever. The 0:22:21.356 --> 0:22:24.356 character had to say something in that bridge so that 0:22:24.436 --> 0:22:27.596 we knew the song wasn't comical, and that we knew 0:22:27.796 --> 0:22:30.516 that that character was in trouble. And it took me 0:22:30.596 --> 0:22:33.596 a while writing that song that before I realized the 0:22:33.676 --> 0:22:36.716 character wasn't me. Even though it is me, it's not me. 0:22:36.996 --> 0:22:38.636 And what I had to do is get everything out 0:22:39.476 --> 0:22:43.276 that didn't belong. Example, the first verse was about my father, 0:22:43.796 --> 0:22:46.116 but then it was just he in the end. Yeah, 0:22:46.276 --> 0:22:48.836 like you too, and you understand it as as as 0:22:48.876 --> 0:22:51.916 the narrator's father. Yeah, but you you cleared out a 0:22:51.916 --> 0:22:53.636 lot of stuff from that song. Yeah, I had to. 0:22:53.836 --> 0:22:58.036 I had to keep asking is this true? Is this true? 0:22:58.196 --> 0:23:01.196 Is this true? Is this true? And if it's not true, 0:23:01.196 --> 0:23:03.276 then get it out, make space, and try to put 0:23:03.316 --> 0:23:08.996 something more true in there. Until everything in it I 0:23:09.316 --> 0:23:12.236 could check the Yeah this is true, which again is 0:23:12.396 --> 0:23:16.756 not a reference to factual, because the song is fiction. 0:23:16.916 --> 0:23:19.796 But I believe it to be true in that I 0:23:19.876 --> 0:23:25.076 believe the narrator it rings true. Well the other thing 0:23:25.596 --> 0:23:27.516 and we haven't even talked about your music yet. We're 0:23:27.516 --> 0:23:33.476 talking so much about lyrics. Is the pause for would 0:23:33.516 --> 0:23:36.196 you mind even playing just the chorus just so people 0:23:36.196 --> 0:23:48.596 will hear what I'm talking about? Yeah, Fish swam birds fly, 0:23:51.676 --> 0:24:16.116 Daddy's you mom cry, old man something drink? Wow? Was 0:24:16.156 --> 0:24:19.556 that pause always in that song? Yeah? Yeah, that is 0:24:19.556 --> 0:24:24.356 so good. Yeah, yeah, it just makes it That delay is. Man, 0:24:24.476 --> 0:24:28.556 it's weird because in some situations it comes off as comical. 0:24:28.876 --> 0:24:30.676 Had you heard that in another song, that kind of 0:24:30.676 --> 0:24:33.636 delay or it just that just seemed to be how 0:24:33.676 --> 0:24:40.276 it fell in, Like I figured the the guy would 0:24:40.356 --> 0:24:44.556 say it in a way that was again a matter 0:24:44.596 --> 0:24:49.436 of fact. Look, here's what I am, and this is 0:24:49.476 --> 0:24:52.196 just how it is. He would probably say it a 0:24:52.236 --> 0:24:55.196 little softer. It wouldn't. He wouldn't go up on I drink. 0:24:55.236 --> 0:24:57.716 He would say it a little softer. Fish swam birds fly, 0:24:57.996 --> 0:25:00.796 daddy's yell, mom's cry, old man. They sit and think 0:25:00.876 --> 0:25:05.436 and yeah, I drink. But you could have filled it 0:25:05.476 --> 0:25:07.956 in with you know, I'm the kind of kind of drinks, 0:25:08.076 --> 0:25:09.916 or you know, you could have felled been all those 0:25:10.316 --> 0:25:14.036 missing syllables had you wanted right. But then it would 0:25:14.076 --> 0:25:16.476 have felt as though it would be less a matter 0:25:16.556 --> 0:25:18.116