1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:28,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Mary Goshet is a folk singer songwriter whose songs 2 00:00:28,356 --> 00:00:33,236 Speaker 1: have quite literally saved her life. Born a bastard child 3 00:00:34,196 --> 00:00:39,716 Speaker 1: in New Orleans, it's two old woman I have never seen. 4 00:00:42,276 --> 00:00:46,676 Speaker 1: I don't know if she ever held me. All I 5 00:00:46,956 --> 00:00:54,316 Speaker 1: nasees she like go me. Writing music didn't come easily. 6 00:00:54,436 --> 00:00:57,516 Speaker 1: To go shat. She began abusing drugs and alcohol as 7 00:00:57,516 --> 00:01:00,796 Speaker 1: a young girl growing up in Louisiana. After years of 8 00:01:00,836 --> 00:01:04,476 Speaker 1: struggling with addiction, Goshe got clean at age twenty seven 9 00:01:04,756 --> 00:01:08,516 Speaker 1: after getting arrested for a dui. She picked up a 10 00:01:08,596 --> 00:01:11,516 Speaker 1: dusty old guitar not long after and began to frequent 11 00:01:11,596 --> 00:01:15,036 Speaker 1: open mics around Boston, where she eventually found the community 12 00:01:15,076 --> 00:01:19,596 Speaker 1: in Connection she craved. Mary Gosche released her debut album, 13 00:01:19,636 --> 00:01:23,356 Speaker 1: Dixie Kitchen in nineteen ninety seven. She moved to Nashville 14 00:01:23,436 --> 00:01:25,876 Speaker 1: not long after, and a sense become known for her 15 00:01:25,916 --> 00:01:29,956 Speaker 1: ability to write vivid, literary style lyrics that pull from 16 00:01:29,956 --> 00:01:34,676 Speaker 1: her past trauma, loss, and heartbreak. Early this year, Goshe 17 00:01:34,796 --> 00:01:37,636 Speaker 1: published the book Saved by a Song, The Art and 18 00:01:37,756 --> 00:01:42,156 Speaker 1: Healing Power of Songwriting, which documents her process and inspiration. 19 00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:46,316 Speaker 1: On today's episode, Bruce Heath them talks to Mary Gosche 20 00:01:46,756 --> 00:01:49,316 Speaker 1: about how the same determination that once drove her to 21 00:01:49,436 --> 00:01:53,356 Speaker 1: drink now powers her songwriting. She also talks about how 22 00:01:53,396 --> 00:01:57,476 Speaker 1: conversations with young US veterans inspired her Grammy nominated album 23 00:01:57,796 --> 00:02:03,116 Speaker 1: Rifles and Rosary Beads, and Goshe recalls seeing one particularly moving, 24 00:02:03,156 --> 00:02:06,276 Speaker 1: open mic performance that inspired her to become the artist 25 00:02:06,396 --> 00:02:12,836 Speaker 1: she is today. This is broken record liner notes for 26 00:02:12,876 --> 00:02:21,036 Speaker 1: the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce Utlam and 27 00:02:21,156 --> 00:02:25,876 Speaker 1: Mary Gotchet. Your great book Saved by a Song, the 28 00:02:25,956 --> 00:02:29,556 Speaker 1: art and healing power of songwriting. It is a great 29 00:02:29,596 --> 00:02:33,116 Speaker 1: guide to songwriting. However, when you flip it open and 30 00:02:33,156 --> 00:02:35,036 Speaker 1: you go to the epigraph, I'm going to read the epigraph. 31 00:02:35,676 --> 00:02:38,276 Speaker 1: So the epigraph is from the Gospel of Thomas. If 32 00:02:38,316 --> 00:02:41,076 Speaker 1: you bring forth what is within you, what you bring 33 00:02:41,116 --> 00:02:43,956 Speaker 1: forth will save you. If you do not bring forth 34 00:02:44,036 --> 00:02:46,596 Speaker 1: what is within you, what you do not bring forth 35 00:02:46,636 --> 00:02:49,716 Speaker 1: will destroy you. I thought way to take the pressure 36 00:02:49,716 --> 00:02:54,836 Speaker 1: off there. I interpret it as meaning is that music 37 00:02:54,836 --> 00:02:59,796 Speaker 1: and song is this opportunity to bring forth what's very 38 00:02:59,836 --> 00:03:04,076 Speaker 1: hard to articulate any other way. And a lot of 39 00:03:04,076 --> 00:03:09,916 Speaker 1: these things are deeply embedded in trauma. For me, I've 40 00:03:09,996 --> 00:03:12,916 Speaker 1: used music and song to move trauma through my cells 41 00:03:13,036 --> 00:03:17,836 Speaker 1: and out of my body. If we carry our trauma 42 00:03:17,996 --> 00:03:23,116 Speaker 1: without working through our trauma, we find often that it 43 00:03:23,156 --> 00:03:28,116 Speaker 1: gets heavier, not lighter. And so I see that passage 44 00:03:28,196 --> 00:03:31,796 Speaker 1: is hopeful. You didn't come to songwriting the way a 45 00:03:31,796 --> 00:03:33,876 Speaker 1: lot of people I interview. D tell me a little 46 00:03:33,916 --> 00:03:37,196 Speaker 1: bit about when songwriting really started for you. Yeah, I 47 00:03:37,236 --> 00:03:41,036 Speaker 1: didn't start writing songs until my thirties. I went to 48 00:03:41,116 --> 00:03:46,156 Speaker 1: chef's school and trained to be a better cook. While 49 00:03:46,196 --> 00:03:48,396 Speaker 1: I was in the restaurant business, I had found some 50 00:03:48,476 --> 00:03:51,836 Speaker 1: backers to open a place in Boston and then another 51 00:03:51,876 --> 00:03:55,516 Speaker 1: place in Boston. I got sober when I was twenty seven, 52 00:03:56,076 --> 00:03:59,556 Speaker 1: after getting arrested for drunk driving opening night at the 53 00:03:59,596 --> 00:04:03,516 Speaker 1: second restaurant. And after I got sober, I finished chef 54 00:04:03,596 --> 00:04:07,956 Speaker 1: school and I started to go to open mics. And 55 00:04:07,996 --> 00:04:10,596 Speaker 1: it started with one of my waitresses at the restaurant. 56 00:04:10,876 --> 00:04:13,156 Speaker 1: Had all this time on my hands. After I got sober, 57 00:04:13,196 --> 00:04:15,436 Speaker 1: I didn't. It felt like a day was forty years long. 58 00:04:15,676 --> 00:04:18,036 Speaker 1: Wait a second, you were running two restaurants, Yeah, but 59 00:04:18,156 --> 00:04:20,236 Speaker 1: still drinking and drugs took a lot of time. What 60 00:04:20,276 --> 00:04:23,996 Speaker 1: you're doing, it took it was the way I completed 61 00:04:24,076 --> 00:04:29,836 Speaker 1: my day, and without that completion ritual, I needed a 62 00:04:29,836 --> 00:04:33,796 Speaker 1: way to complete my day. And I was brought to 63 00:04:33,836 --> 00:04:36,876 Speaker 1: an open mic and it was a lightbulb moment for me. 64 00:04:36,916 --> 00:04:38,676 Speaker 1: I was like, ah, I want to do this. I 65 00:04:38,756 --> 00:04:40,916 Speaker 1: want to I want to write a song and get 66 00:04:40,956 --> 00:04:43,636 Speaker 1: on that stage and play here. It was at Club 67 00:04:43,636 --> 00:04:46,996 Speaker 1: Pass simon Hervard Square, and so I had an old 68 00:04:46,996 --> 00:04:50,316 Speaker 1: guitar that I'd been traveling around with for years, but 69 00:04:50,396 --> 00:04:52,716 Speaker 1: it was dusty and old and the strings were rusty, 70 00:04:52,796 --> 00:04:56,916 Speaker 1: and I needed to change the strings and rebuild callouses 71 00:04:56,956 --> 00:05:00,556 Speaker 1: and like put put it in my hands and find 72 00:05:00,596 --> 00:05:05,556 Speaker 1: my way to chords again. And it was homecoming of sorts, 73 00:05:05,556 --> 00:05:09,716 Speaker 1: and I took to it really passionately. And what happened was, 74 00:05:10,756 --> 00:05:14,596 Speaker 1: you know, I'm an addict. So I went at open 75 00:05:14,716 --> 00:05:18,956 Speaker 1: mics like an attic wood and what I found there 76 00:05:19,876 --> 00:05:22,396 Speaker 1: was kind of what I was looking for all along 77 00:05:22,396 --> 00:05:26,676 Speaker 1: with drugs and alcohol, which is community and connection, hanging 78 00:05:26,716 --> 00:05:31,396 Speaker 1: out with other songwriters and artists and performance poets and 79 00:05:31,636 --> 00:05:37,476 Speaker 1: just a bunch of wackos and misfits and beautiful crazy people. 80 00:05:38,116 --> 00:05:41,596 Speaker 1: I found my people. I found community, and I wasn't 81 00:05:41,716 --> 00:05:45,836 Speaker 1: drunk so I connected in a way that didn't disappear 82 00:05:45,876 --> 00:05:50,356 Speaker 1: the next morning. I was really rebuilding my life, and 83 00:05:50,756 --> 00:05:53,676 Speaker 1: music and song became the tap root, I think, to 84 00:05:53,796 --> 00:05:57,596 Speaker 1: my sobriety and recovery and to my life. And here 85 00:05:57,636 --> 00:05:59,796 Speaker 1: we are thirty one years later and it still is. 86 00:06:00,276 --> 00:06:02,996 Speaker 1: So tell me there are people, a lot of people 87 00:06:03,076 --> 00:06:06,276 Speaker 1: probably listening that have dusty guitars at home who can 88 00:06:06,316 --> 00:06:10,236 Speaker 1: play a few chords. Where did you start with writing 89 00:06:10,236 --> 00:06:12,476 Speaker 1: a song? That first day? I said, Okay, I'm gonna 90 00:06:12,516 --> 00:06:14,356 Speaker 1: do you remember that first day when I was like 91 00:06:14,956 --> 00:06:17,076 Speaker 1: kind of I didn't have any idea what I was 92 00:06:17,156 --> 00:06:19,996 Speaker 1: doing or how to do it or but I'd seen 93 00:06:20,036 --> 00:06:22,876 Speaker 1: a room full of people do it. And I started 94 00:06:22,876 --> 00:06:26,316 Speaker 1: going to that open mic every week, and I watched, 95 00:06:27,196 --> 00:06:30,276 Speaker 1: you know, nervous people, people who really weren't very good 96 00:06:30,316 --> 00:06:32,796 Speaker 1: at it, people who were just getting started, people who 97 00:06:32,836 --> 00:06:36,836 Speaker 1: were older than me, which was great relief to me 98 00:06:36,876 --> 00:06:39,996 Speaker 1: because I felt old at thirty one thirty two, however 99 00:06:40,076 --> 00:06:42,756 Speaker 1: old I was there for me. It was a matter 100 00:06:42,996 --> 00:06:47,996 Speaker 1: of finding a melody and some words and a handful 101 00:06:47,996 --> 00:06:51,996 Speaker 1: of chords that my handkerd shape and saying something. And 102 00:06:52,076 --> 00:06:54,996 Speaker 1: it took me quite a while to figure out what 103 00:06:55,036 --> 00:06:58,676 Speaker 1: it is I wanted to be saying. I finally made 104 00:06:58,756 --> 00:07:00,756 Speaker 1: up nine or ten songs and I made a little 105 00:07:00,756 --> 00:07:04,556 Speaker 1: demo record. When I look back on that, I think, well, 106 00:07:04,556 --> 00:07:08,356 Speaker 1: you know, I'm imitating my heroes like most people in 107 00:07:08,396 --> 00:07:12,156 Speaker 1: the beginning. In retrospect, if you listen to that first 108 00:07:12,196 --> 00:07:16,396 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan record, he's definitely imitating his heroes, from Dave 109 00:07:16,476 --> 00:07:18,716 Speaker 1: von Ronck to Raandland Jack Elliott to What He Got. 110 00:07:18,716 --> 00:07:21,116 Speaker 1: Three has one original Dylan song on that first record, 111 00:07:21,196 --> 00:07:24,876 Speaker 1: and you can see the promise that he has fulfilled. 112 00:07:24,916 --> 00:07:31,076 Speaker 1: And then some The beginning is I think naturally about 113 00:07:31,756 --> 00:07:34,276 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what you're supposed to be talking 114 00:07:34,316 --> 00:07:37,036 Speaker 1: about and what you're supposed to sound like. It's interesting 115 00:07:37,036 --> 00:07:38,996 Speaker 1: because you know, we're in Nashville. In fact, we're a 116 00:07:38,996 --> 00:07:41,796 Speaker 1: long music row where a lot of people, you know, 117 00:07:41,876 --> 00:07:44,876 Speaker 1: they really learned not by figuring out what they had 118 00:07:44,916 --> 00:07:47,156 Speaker 1: to say, but by just the craft of it. Like 119 00:07:47,276 --> 00:07:48,636 Speaker 1: I got to write a song because this is how 120 00:07:48,676 --> 00:07:50,596 Speaker 1: I make a living, and I'm going to try and 121 00:07:50,596 --> 00:07:53,476 Speaker 1: sell it to somebody. Right, that really didn't go through 122 00:07:53,516 --> 00:07:55,756 Speaker 1: that for you. It was it was the subject had 123 00:07:55,796 --> 00:07:58,876 Speaker 1: to come. Yeah, Well, two things One I didn't have 124 00:07:58,956 --> 00:08:01,076 Speaker 1: to make a living at it. I owned two restaurants 125 00:08:01,836 --> 00:08:03,956 Speaker 1: and I made a good living, so it wasn't about 126 00:08:03,996 --> 00:08:06,316 Speaker 1: money for me. And the other thing is I never 127 00:08:06,356 --> 00:08:11,676 Speaker 1: played in covers bands. I didn't have a large vocabulary 128 00:08:12,076 --> 00:08:17,276 Speaker 1: musically really G C, D, E, E A B. I mean, 129 00:08:17,316 --> 00:08:20,356 Speaker 1: there's just that one four or five chord progression over 130 00:08:20,396 --> 00:08:22,716 Speaker 1: and over again and get fancy to throw a minor in. 131 00:08:23,476 --> 00:08:28,236 Speaker 1: Have you pushed yourself since then? Because artists like Paul Simon, 132 00:08:28,276 --> 00:08:31,236 Speaker 1: particularly in the seventies when he was suddenly by himself, 133 00:08:31,956 --> 00:08:34,756 Speaker 1: he learned music theory because he thought, I just don't 134 00:08:34,756 --> 00:08:37,196 Speaker 1: have enough chords for what I want to do. Has 135 00:08:37,236 --> 00:08:39,996 Speaker 1: that been a kind of lifetime thing for you too? No? 136 00:08:40,396 --> 00:08:45,876 Speaker 1: I can work within my limitations and musically still continue 137 00:08:46,236 --> 00:08:50,316 Speaker 1: to find new melodies to wrap around where I really 138 00:08:50,476 --> 00:08:55,436 Speaker 1: want to go. That challenges me the most is lyrically, 139 00:08:55,476 --> 00:08:59,756 Speaker 1: the places I haven't been before. I want to articulate 140 00:09:00,516 --> 00:09:03,796 Speaker 1: what I'm going through. The challenge for me is to 141 00:09:03,916 --> 00:09:08,996 Speaker 1: not repeat myself. And some people will find that deepening 142 00:09:09,276 --> 00:09:12,196 Speaker 1: knowledge of music helps them to do that. For me, 143 00:09:12,316 --> 00:09:16,636 Speaker 1: deepening my knowledge of myself and the world and spirituality 144 00:09:16,676 --> 00:09:21,276 Speaker 1: and faith and in particularly love. That is a full 145 00:09:21,316 --> 00:09:25,796 Speaker 1: time job for me, as someone who has dealt with 146 00:09:26,796 --> 00:09:31,076 Speaker 1: a deep seated sense of unworthiness for most of my life, 147 00:09:31,676 --> 00:09:35,316 Speaker 1: learning how to love and be loved. Man, you know 148 00:09:35,356 --> 00:09:39,036 Speaker 1: I'll be doing that for whatever time I have left. 149 00:09:39,196 --> 00:09:42,476 Speaker 1: Is probably not enough to get real good at it. 150 00:09:42,476 --> 00:09:45,156 Speaker 1: It's going to take another lifetime. Probably. Let me ask 151 00:09:45,196 --> 00:09:47,916 Speaker 1: you when you say lyrics finding the right words, like, 152 00:09:47,956 --> 00:09:50,236 Speaker 1: how do you find these works? Are you either kind 153 00:09:50,276 --> 00:09:52,556 Speaker 1: of I've always got a notebook with me or are 154 00:09:52,596 --> 00:09:55,516 Speaker 1: you the kind of sit down every day type. I'm 155 00:09:55,516 --> 00:09:59,476 Speaker 1: on the computers now. Really? Yeah, I wrote on legal 156 00:09:59,516 --> 00:10:03,116 Speaker 1: pads for years and I still have just huge for 157 00:10:03,396 --> 00:10:06,396 Speaker 1: legal pads worth of edits that I bring sometimes to 158 00:10:06,436 --> 00:10:08,756 Speaker 1: my workshops when I'm working with songwriters to go, look, 159 00:10:09,276 --> 00:10:11,796 Speaker 1: this is how much I edited this song. You think 160 00:10:11,956 --> 00:10:15,636 Speaker 1: you think your first past is the one like this 161 00:10:15,716 --> 00:10:18,116 Speaker 1: is how much I had to get rid of to 162 00:10:18,156 --> 00:10:21,076 Speaker 1: get to that. When the computers came along and I 163 00:10:21,076 --> 00:10:24,836 Speaker 1: started writing on computers. Maybe some things get lost. I 164 00:10:24,836 --> 00:10:28,476 Speaker 1: don't just delete it. It's a long running document, but 165 00:10:28,556 --> 00:10:31,956 Speaker 1: I do cut and paste and use the laptop as 166 00:10:31,956 --> 00:10:35,876 Speaker 1: I write these days. Definitely, you're a healthy consumer of 167 00:10:35,876 --> 00:10:38,996 Speaker 1: Amazon Cloud Services. Is what you're telling a lot of stuff. 168 00:10:39,036 --> 00:10:42,596 Speaker 1: There got a lot of words. What allows you to 169 00:10:42,596 --> 00:10:45,756 Speaker 1: find those words? I have a thing in my gut 170 00:10:45,796 --> 00:10:49,596 Speaker 1: that my very first producer, Chrit Harman, identified as the 171 00:10:49,596 --> 00:10:53,196 Speaker 1: truth thometer. And I think if there's anything that that 172 00:10:53,356 --> 00:10:55,956 Speaker 1: I could point to that says this is where your 173 00:10:55,996 --> 00:11:01,036 Speaker 1: talent lies, that would be what I would claim is 174 00:11:01,076 --> 00:11:06,756 Speaker 1: I have a truth thometer, and that truth thometer tells 175 00:11:06,836 --> 00:11:10,396 Speaker 1: me when I'm not there yet. And so finding words 176 00:11:11,596 --> 00:11:16,836 Speaker 1: is not hard. Finding truth is always hard, and that's 177 00:11:16,876 --> 00:11:20,196 Speaker 1: what I challenge myself to do. And the truth I'm 178 00:11:20,196 --> 00:11:25,236 Speaker 1: referencing is not the facts, it's emotional truth. Like really 179 00:11:25,276 --> 00:11:29,796 Speaker 1: what we're talking about here, I'm always in this state 180 00:11:29,836 --> 00:11:32,436 Speaker 1: of unknowing when I write, I don't I don't know, 181 00:11:32,516 --> 00:11:35,756 Speaker 1: and I'm in a discovery process. What's that process? Like 182 00:11:36,236 --> 00:11:40,116 Speaker 1: it's getting rid of bullshit, like that's just not quite true, 183 00:11:40,356 --> 00:11:43,196 Speaker 1: or that sounds nice and you really want to sing 184 00:11:43,236 --> 00:11:46,516 Speaker 1: it because it has a razzle dazzle, but it's a 185 00:11:47,236 --> 00:11:52,076 Speaker 1: half truth. Sounds good, looks good, presents well out of party, 186 00:11:52,156 --> 00:11:54,556 Speaker 1: but then you leave and realize nothing was said and 187 00:11:54,716 --> 00:11:59,076 Speaker 1: nothing moved, and nothing really connected to all songs begin 188 00:11:59,476 --> 00:12:01,596 Speaker 1: with a little bit of that for you. Oh yeah, 189 00:12:01,636 --> 00:12:04,236 Speaker 1: I have to start with what I call the cocktail 190 00:12:04,276 --> 00:12:09,596 Speaker 1: party conversation and then work my way into something deeper 191 00:12:09,716 --> 00:12:11,916 Speaker 1: for me to finish the song. And I have a 192 00:12:11,956 --> 00:12:14,156 Speaker 1: lot of songs I've started that I didn't finish. I 193 00:12:14,236 --> 00:12:16,916 Speaker 1: have not finished. Do you think it's because those songs 194 00:12:16,956 --> 00:12:19,676 Speaker 1: didn't have a truth or because you just couldn't find 195 00:12:19,716 --> 00:12:23,076 Speaker 1: it didn't find it? I probably belonged to somebody else 196 00:12:23,116 --> 00:12:26,436 Speaker 1: somewhere else. It wouldn't mind to write. I'm interested. You know. 197 00:12:26,516 --> 00:12:28,836 Speaker 1: You say you've got a what did you say, a 198 00:12:28,876 --> 00:12:32,556 Speaker 1: truth truthometer? You know, the flip side of that, and 199 00:12:32,636 --> 00:12:35,956 Speaker 1: you said this would be the bullshit detector. Yep, uh. 200 00:12:36,276 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 1: Do you have that for other singers? Do you hear 201 00:12:38,076 --> 00:12:41,996 Speaker 1: songs and go, nice song, ain't true all the time? 202 00:12:42,316 --> 00:12:46,996 Speaker 1: Oh wow? It really? Yeah, I don't believe even with 203 00:12:47,076 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 1: famous songs, and yeah, I don't believe you. I guess 204 00:12:49,916 --> 00:12:53,676 Speaker 1: I'm less interested in what the truth is in how 205 00:12:53,716 --> 00:12:56,596 Speaker 1: they say it. You know, I like a lot of 206 00:12:56,676 --> 00:12:58,996 Speaker 1: rock music where frankly I don't I don't have a 207 00:12:59,076 --> 00:13:02,716 Speaker 1: clue what what the lyrics are even are about. I 208 00:13:02,756 --> 00:13:05,916 Speaker 1: don't kind of care. That's not where I tend to 209 00:13:05,956 --> 00:13:08,676 Speaker 1: put my ears. I want to hear some truth and 210 00:13:08,876 --> 00:13:12,036 Speaker 1: that I'm not asking for facts. Fiction is awesome, that's 211 00:13:12,116 --> 00:13:15,916 Speaker 1: actually a great way to get to the truth. What 212 00:13:15,956 --> 00:13:19,356 Speaker 1: I mean is I want to believe the singer, and 213 00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:24,836 Speaker 1: that is wrapped to me, wrapped around emotional truth. And 214 00:13:24,916 --> 00:13:30,436 Speaker 1: so I think that there's a certain amount of vulnerability involved, 215 00:13:31,236 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 1: a certain amount of taking a risk that's involved, and 216 00:13:34,316 --> 00:13:37,916 Speaker 1: those twos tend to be universal and they tend to 217 00:13:38,076 --> 00:13:41,636 Speaker 1: follow us through time. The song you guys warmed up on, 218 00:13:41,716 --> 00:13:43,916 Speaker 1: which was the War after the War, Now, I know 219 00:13:43,996 --> 00:13:48,116 Speaker 1: you co wrote that with people I believe whose spouses were, yeah, 220 00:13:48,156 --> 00:13:52,396 Speaker 1: military spouses and best Nilson Chapman, and you know that 221 00:13:52,476 --> 00:13:56,756 Speaker 1: line their landmines in the living room, eggshells on the floor. Well, 222 00:13:56,796 --> 00:13:59,716 Speaker 1: that's I mean, those are just great lines, That's what 223 00:13:59,796 --> 00:14:02,476 Speaker 1: those are. And you've got those throughout your songs. Is 224 00:14:02,516 --> 00:14:04,796 Speaker 1: that something you do? You hear little phrases and go, 225 00:14:04,876 --> 00:14:09,636 Speaker 1: oh that that works. Yeah, yeah, And That's what I'm 226 00:14:09,716 --> 00:14:16,836 Speaker 1: looking for when I write, is visual that makes you 227 00:14:16,956 --> 00:14:19,876 Speaker 1: see it and then feel it. Tell me the story 228 00:14:19,916 --> 00:14:22,396 Speaker 1: about the guy you signed an open mic night. It's 229 00:14:22,396 --> 00:14:23,796 Speaker 1: a story in your book, and I thought it was 230 00:14:23,836 --> 00:14:26,236 Speaker 1: so instructive. Yeah, I call it the Farmer in the 231 00:14:26,236 --> 00:14:30,276 Speaker 1: Hat story. When I was about a year or two 232 00:14:30,316 --> 00:14:33,436 Speaker 1: into open mics, just very much at the beginning of 233 00:14:33,516 --> 00:14:37,916 Speaker 1: learning how to write songs and play them on stage, 234 00:14:38,476 --> 00:14:42,636 Speaker 1: which was for me terrifying. For quite a while. I 235 00:14:42,756 --> 00:14:47,196 Speaker 1: just had serious stage fright and a sense of what 236 00:14:47,276 --> 00:14:48,996 Speaker 1: am I doing up here? Every time I got up there, 237 00:14:48,996 --> 00:14:51,156 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, well, the first time 238 00:14:51,196 --> 00:14:52,796 Speaker 1: you didn't play at all? Right, the first time I 239 00:14:52,796 --> 00:14:55,636 Speaker 1: couldn't even get a word out. I just completely failed. 240 00:14:55,996 --> 00:14:59,596 Speaker 1: But I was brought to an open mic where it 241 00:14:59,636 --> 00:15:01,636 Speaker 1: went for hours and hours and hours because it was 242 00:15:01,676 --> 00:15:05,036 Speaker 1: a very popular open mic in western Massachusetts at the 243 00:15:05,036 --> 00:15:08,796 Speaker 1: old Vienna Coffeehouse. One hundred and something people signed up. 244 00:15:09,276 --> 00:15:11,236 Speaker 1: If you do the math at five minutes, that's a 245 00:15:11,236 --> 00:15:13,916 Speaker 1: lot a lot of a lot of people and a 246 00:15:13,916 --> 00:15:16,476 Speaker 1: lot of hours. And so three or four hours into 247 00:15:16,516 --> 00:15:18,476 Speaker 1: this thing, waiting for our turn to play, a lot 248 00:15:18,516 --> 00:15:21,596 Speaker 1: of people left, but the people that remained were steadfast 249 00:15:21,676 --> 00:15:24,676 Speaker 1: and waiting for their turn on stage. And this guy 250 00:15:24,756 --> 00:15:29,036 Speaker 1: gets up and he's obese, he's an overalls, he's got 251 00:15:29,076 --> 00:15:33,436 Speaker 1: dirty work boots, he's wearing a straw hat, and he 252 00:15:33,596 --> 00:15:39,076 Speaker 1: looks as nervous as I've felt on stage, and when 253 00:15:39,116 --> 00:15:41,356 Speaker 1: they plug him in to get going, he just immediately 254 00:15:41,436 --> 00:15:45,436 Speaker 1: starts strumming without finesse, and and those of us left 255 00:15:45,436 --> 00:15:47,636 Speaker 1: in the audience we're like, oh, man, we're gonna have 256 00:15:47,716 --> 00:15:52,436 Speaker 1: to sit through another horrible song from playing plagued by 257 00:15:52,436 --> 00:15:56,676 Speaker 1: somebody who has no stage presence. And he was shaking 258 00:15:57,396 --> 00:16:01,076 Speaker 1: his face, went Crimson. He was hiding under his hat, 259 00:16:01,316 --> 00:16:05,956 Speaker 1: and it was not a great start. But when he 260 00:16:05,996 --> 00:16:08,556 Speaker 1: got to the chorus, he's saying, I got holes I 261 00:16:09,156 --> 00:16:12,676 Speaker 1: cain't fill and bills I can't pay. I'm gonna walk 262 00:16:12,916 --> 00:16:18,236 Speaker 1: in the water till my hat floats away, And something 263 00:16:18,836 --> 00:16:23,196 Speaker 1: went across the room. I think of it as an 264 00:16:23,236 --> 00:16:29,796 Speaker 1: emotional electricity, and we all immediately let go of our 265 00:16:29,876 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 1: judgment of this guy. And what I think occurred was empathy, 266 00:16:34,916 --> 00:16:40,396 Speaker 1: which is the most powerful experience I think that art 267 00:16:40,436 --> 00:16:43,596 Speaker 1: can give us, especially the art of song, is empathy. 268 00:16:43,636 --> 00:16:49,516 Speaker 1: We're suddenly not only being brought to the feeling of 269 00:16:49,596 --> 00:16:53,316 Speaker 1: what he's saying that we have had, but we're feeling 270 00:16:53,556 --> 00:16:56,956 Speaker 1: as if we are him. We become him in that moment. 271 00:16:57,516 --> 00:17:02,396 Speaker 1: And what happened was we understood instinctively he wasn't joking 272 00:17:03,836 --> 00:17:08,596 Speaker 1: like he was serious, and I don't know if he 273 00:17:08,676 --> 00:17:12,956 Speaker 1: was and playing suicide, but his narrator was, and we 274 00:17:13,036 --> 00:17:18,236 Speaker 1: believed him, and that believing him really really moved us. 275 00:17:18,956 --> 00:17:23,436 Speaker 1: When that happened, the room was his. He had us. 276 00:17:23,516 --> 00:17:26,036 Speaker 1: It didn't matter that he was obese, it didn't matter 277 00:17:26,156 --> 00:17:29,196 Speaker 1: that he was unwashed, it didn't matter he couldn't sing, 278 00:17:29,276 --> 00:17:32,196 Speaker 1: it didn't matter he couldn't play. And he got a 279 00:17:32,236 --> 00:17:35,436 Speaker 1: standing ovation from the people that were in the audience, 280 00:17:35,796 --> 00:17:39,036 Speaker 1: and that burned itself into my consciousness of what I'm 281 00:17:39,036 --> 00:17:41,156 Speaker 1: trying to do as a songwriter. I wanted to do 282 00:17:41,196 --> 00:17:43,556 Speaker 1: what that guy did. I wanted to make people feel 283 00:17:43,556 --> 00:17:48,236 Speaker 1: it and be unable to not feel it. And that's 284 00:17:48,316 --> 00:17:51,676 Speaker 1: still my goal. And he gave me a way of 285 00:17:51,996 --> 00:17:57,436 Speaker 1: seeing my job that wasn't contingent on music business values, 286 00:17:57,756 --> 00:17:59,676 Speaker 1: which you gotta be young, you gotta be sexy, you 287 00:17:59,676 --> 00:18:01,836 Speaker 1: gotta sing great, you gotta play great, you gotta be 288 00:18:02,076 --> 00:18:05,596 Speaker 1: uh no, that thing there. If I can do what 289 00:18:05,636 --> 00:18:09,436 Speaker 1: he did, I know I'll have a career. I know 290 00:18:09,516 --> 00:18:13,636 Speaker 1: I'll have people who will want to hear what I do. 291 00:18:14,316 --> 00:18:17,476 Speaker 1: But it was a great song quality, which is it 292 00:18:17,556 --> 00:18:20,876 Speaker 1: was so visual. Yep. And that is what I talk 293 00:18:20,956 --> 00:18:26,356 Speaker 1: about a lot, is that songs often in my way 294 00:18:26,356 --> 00:18:29,876 Speaker 1: of looking at it, or like cinematic moments. There's like 295 00:18:29,956 --> 00:18:32,876 Speaker 1: little films. You want to bring people into the movie 296 00:18:32,956 --> 00:18:36,756 Speaker 1: so they can see themselves in your story. That's always 297 00:18:36,796 --> 00:18:40,516 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to do, and then that creates emotion. 298 00:18:40,876 --> 00:18:43,316 Speaker 1: Can you think of songwriters who for you always create 299 00:18:43,356 --> 00:18:47,956 Speaker 1: those visual pictures? Oh god, there's so many. You talk 300 00:18:48,036 --> 00:18:52,276 Speaker 1: about Sam Stone being one of your friend John always always, Now, 301 00:18:52,276 --> 00:18:54,916 Speaker 1: that would be a good song, but everybody knows there's 302 00:18:54,916 --> 00:18:58,116 Speaker 1: a hole in Daddy's arm where I don't think that 303 00:18:58,196 --> 00:19:00,836 Speaker 1: song would be nearly as well known with that. That's 304 00:19:00,836 --> 00:19:02,956 Speaker 1: the line that there's a hole in Daddy's arm where 305 00:19:02,996 --> 00:19:06,396 Speaker 1: all the money goes. Yeah, oh my god, what a visual. 306 00:19:06,636 --> 00:19:09,036 Speaker 1: My friend Gretchen Peters has a song called on the 307 00:19:09,236 --> 00:19:12,956 Speaker 1: Us to Sink Cloud and it's about a divorce or 308 00:19:12,996 --> 00:19:20,156 Speaker 1: a breakup and she she's finds herself in the church 309 00:19:20,356 --> 00:19:23,996 Speaker 1: and Saint Cloud and she weeps in the arms of 310 00:19:24,076 --> 00:19:27,956 Speaker 1: Jesus for the choice you made that is so much 311 00:19:27,996 --> 00:19:30,436 Speaker 1: better than you broke my heart. And now I'm sad. 312 00:19:31,036 --> 00:19:36,036 Speaker 1: The recitation of I'm sad in blue does nothing. It 313 00:19:36,436 --> 00:19:39,756 Speaker 1: doesn't have the power. And that's just understanding how human 314 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:42,556 Speaker 1: empathy gets triggered. Give me a couple of examples from 315 00:19:42,556 --> 00:19:46,476 Speaker 1: your own songwriting, where you are consciously or unconsciously thinking 316 00:19:46,516 --> 00:19:50,156 Speaker 1: of that moment, the until my hat floats away, your 317 00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:54,196 Speaker 1: your hat floating away moments. M Well, you know, I 318 00:19:54,516 --> 00:19:56,476 Speaker 1: try to get an imagery in every song. I got 319 00:19:56,516 --> 00:20:00,116 Speaker 1: one moving on through the pain. I'm waiting on another train, 320 00:20:01,396 --> 00:20:04,876 Speaker 1: like we we all know, I'm not really at the 321 00:20:04,916 --> 00:20:07,836 Speaker 1: train station waiting for on another train. It's a metaphor, 322 00:20:08,596 --> 00:20:12,516 Speaker 1: but the tra brains always lend themselves to these, to 323 00:20:12,636 --> 00:20:15,196 Speaker 1: these songs. That the train is a metaphor for so 324 00:20:15,236 --> 00:20:18,756 Speaker 1: many things, the comings and goings of everything in human life. 325 00:20:18,756 --> 00:20:23,916 Speaker 1: That's why there's I think, never enough trained songs. You know, 326 00:20:24,236 --> 00:20:27,796 Speaker 1: working with the veterans rifles and rosary beads, you hold 327 00:20:27,836 --> 00:20:30,636 Speaker 1: on to what you need, you know, I asked the 328 00:20:30,676 --> 00:20:32,356 Speaker 1: young man, I wrote that with what did you see 329 00:20:32,396 --> 00:20:34,876 Speaker 1: when you got off that plane? Nineteen years old kid 330 00:20:34,956 --> 00:20:37,996 Speaker 1: from Austin, Texas, gone through basic and find yourself in 331 00:20:38,076 --> 00:20:41,436 Speaker 1: Fallujah during the search He said, Well, there was guys 332 00:20:42,156 --> 00:20:47,316 Speaker 1: holding rifles with white knuckles, and there was guys holding 333 00:20:47,436 --> 00:20:50,996 Speaker 1: rosary beads and rolling them. He wasn't a Catholic, so 334 00:20:51,036 --> 00:20:53,836 Speaker 1: he didn't know that that's how I was raised Catholic. 335 00:20:53,876 --> 00:20:56,916 Speaker 1: You pray each bead. Each bead has a prayer attached. 336 00:20:57,116 --> 00:20:59,036 Speaker 1: He said, they were rolling the beats, and so I 337 00:20:59,156 --> 00:21:01,956 Speaker 1: just immediately wrote down rifles and rosary beads because that 338 00:21:02,036 --> 00:21:04,636 Speaker 1: imagery is so strong, and followed it up with you 339 00:21:04,676 --> 00:21:07,356 Speaker 1: hold on to what you need. And then I asked 340 00:21:07,436 --> 00:21:09,876 Speaker 1: him what was it that you held on too? And 341 00:21:10,276 --> 00:21:12,716 Speaker 1: there was a long pause, and I knew I had 342 00:21:12,716 --> 00:21:17,316 Speaker 1: asked a hard question. Then he slowly and somewhat hesitantly 343 00:21:17,356 --> 00:21:21,396 Speaker 1: said Vicadin, and I came right down into the song Vicadin, 344 00:21:21,716 --> 00:21:26,116 Speaker 1: Morphine dreams, rifles and rosary beats. We'll be right back 345 00:21:26,156 --> 00:21:32,956 Speaker 1: with more from Mary Goche. After a quick break, we're 346 00:21:32,996 --> 00:21:36,796 Speaker 1: back with Mary Goche and Bruce had them. So how 347 00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:40,356 Speaker 1: do you put it all together? Then? Like, when do 348 00:21:40,436 --> 00:21:43,396 Speaker 1: you know that I've got this, I've got the order 349 00:21:43,476 --> 00:21:47,196 Speaker 1: right or is it just work? It's work, yeah, and 350 00:21:47,276 --> 00:21:51,716 Speaker 1: hours and hours and hours. There's a sense of rightness 351 00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:55,956 Speaker 1: when it's really starting to feel done. You know. Usually 352 00:21:55,996 --> 00:21:59,036 Speaker 1: I'll sleep on it and check it the next day 353 00:21:59,036 --> 00:22:00,876 Speaker 1: and see if I still feel that way, and at 354 00:22:00,956 --> 00:22:03,836 Speaker 1: least ninety nine percent of the time I don't. Ultimately, 355 00:22:03,876 --> 00:22:06,796 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it's a gut feeling 356 00:22:06,796 --> 00:22:10,156 Speaker 1: and very hard to articulate. I was in that it 357 00:22:10,156 --> 00:22:15,316 Speaker 1: took you two years to write I drink right about 358 00:22:15,396 --> 00:22:17,596 Speaker 1: two years. Yeah, I had to get I had to 359 00:22:17,596 --> 00:22:21,036 Speaker 1: get that bridge, and boy, that bridge took forever. The 360 00:22:21,356 --> 00:22:24,356 Speaker 1: character had to say something in that bridge so that 361 00:22:24,436 --> 00:22:27,596 Speaker 1: we knew the song wasn't comical, and that we knew 362 00:22:27,796 --> 00:22:30,516 Speaker 1: that that character was in trouble. And it took me 363 00:22:30,596 --> 00:22:33,596 Speaker 1: a while writing that song that before I realized the 364 00:22:33,676 --> 00:22:36,716 Speaker 1: character wasn't me. Even though it is me, it's not me. 365 00:22:36,996 --> 00:22:38,636 Speaker 1: And what I had to do is get everything out 366 00:22:39,476 --> 00:22:43,276 Speaker 1: that didn't belong. Example, the first verse was about my father, 367 00:22:43,796 --> 00:22:46,116 Speaker 1: but then it was just he in the end. Yeah, 368 00:22:46,276 --> 00:22:48,836 Speaker 1: like you too, and you understand it as as as 369 00:22:48,876 --> 00:22:51,916 Speaker 1: the narrator's father. Yeah, but you you cleared out a 370 00:22:51,916 --> 00:22:53,636 Speaker 1: lot of stuff from that song. Yeah, I had to. 371 00:22:53,836 --> 00:22:58,036 Speaker 1: I had to keep asking is this true? Is this true? 372 00:22:58,196 --> 00:23:01,196 Speaker 1: Is this true? Is this true? And if it's not true, 373 00:23:01,196 --> 00:23:03,276 Speaker 1: then get it out, make space, and try to put 374 00:23:03,316 --> 00:23:08,996 Speaker 1: something more true in there. Until everything in it I 375 00:23:09,316 --> 00:23:12,236 Speaker 1: could check the Yeah this is true, which again is 376 00:23:12,396 --> 00:23:16,756 Speaker 1: not a reference to factual, because the song is fiction. 377 00:23:16,916 --> 00:23:19,796 Speaker 1: But I believe it to be true in that I 378 00:23:19,876 --> 00:23:25,076 Speaker 1: believe the narrator it rings true. Well the other thing 379 00:23:25,596 --> 00:23:27,516 Speaker 1: and we haven't even talked about your music yet. We're 380 00:23:27,516 --> 00:23:33,476 Speaker 1: talking so much about lyrics. Is the pause for would 381 00:23:33,516 --> 00:23:36,196 Speaker 1: you mind even playing just the chorus just so people 382 00:23:36,196 --> 00:23:48,596 Speaker 1: will hear what I'm talking about? Yeah, Fish swam birds fly, 383 00:23:51,676 --> 00:24:16,116 Speaker 1: Daddy's you mom cry, old man something drink? Wow? Was 384 00:24:16,156 --> 00:24:19,556 Speaker 1: that pause always in that song? Yeah? Yeah, that is 385 00:24:19,556 --> 00:24:24,356 Speaker 1: so good. Yeah, yeah, it just makes it That delay is. Man, 386 00:24:24,476 --> 00:24:28,556 Speaker 1: it's weird because in some situations it comes off as comical. 387 00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:30,676 Speaker 1: Had you heard that in another song, that kind of 388 00:24:30,676 --> 00:24:33,636 Speaker 1: delay or it just that just seemed to be how 389 00:24:33,676 --> 00:24:40,276 Speaker 1: it fell in, Like I figured the the guy would 390 00:24:40,356 --> 00:24:44,556 Speaker 1: say it in a way that was again a matter 391 00:24:44,596 --> 00:24:49,436 Speaker 1: of fact. Look, here's what I am, and this is 392 00:24:49,476 --> 00:24:52,196 Speaker 1: just how it is. He would probably say it a 393 00:24:52,236 --> 00:24:55,196 Speaker 1: little softer. It wouldn't. He wouldn't go up on I drink. 394 00:24:55,236 --> 00:24:57,716 Speaker 1: He would say it a little softer. Fish swam birds fly, 395 00:24:57,996 --> 00:25:00,796 Speaker 1: daddy's yell, mom's cry, old man. They sit and think 396 00:25:00,876 --> 00:25:05,436 Speaker 1: and yeah, I drink. But you could have filled it 397 00:25:05,476 --> 00:25:07,956 Speaker 1: in with you know, I'm the kind of kind of drinks, 398 00:25:08,076 --> 00:25:09,916 Speaker 1: or you know, you could have felled been all those 399 00:25:10,316 --> 00:25:14,036 Speaker 1: missing syllables had you wanted right. But then it would 400 00:25:14,076 --> 00:25:16,476 Speaker 1: have felt as though it would be less a matter 401 00:25:16,556 --> 00:25:18,116 Speaker 1: of fact, if you filled it in with a bunch 402 00:25:18,116 --> 00:25:22,436 Speaker 1: of mumbo jumbo's. He just has acceptance of what's happening, 403 00:25:23,796 --> 00:25:27,036 Speaker 1: and then you realize in the bridge, wait a minute, 404 00:25:27,156 --> 00:25:32,236 Speaker 1: he's lying to himself. The song is emotionally complicated because 405 00:25:32,556 --> 00:25:36,436 Speaker 1: it is an actually it's an exploration of alcoholic denial, 406 00:25:37,076 --> 00:25:41,356 Speaker 1: which is a much deeper form of denial than just 407 00:25:41,796 --> 00:25:45,796 Speaker 1: knowing something to not be true, but but insisting that 408 00:25:45,836 --> 00:25:49,276 Speaker 1: it is. The alcoholic denial is you have no idea 409 00:25:49,276 --> 00:25:54,756 Speaker 1: of the severity of your situation. You really don't know. 410 00:25:55,476 --> 00:25:57,156 Speaker 1: When he says I know what I am and I 411 00:25:57,196 --> 00:26:00,356 Speaker 1: don't give a damn, the audience goes, Oh, he's in 412 00:26:00,436 --> 00:26:02,556 Speaker 1: trouble and he doesn't really know how bad it is. 413 00:26:02,756 --> 00:26:04,396 Speaker 1: You said that phrase, I don't give a damn it 414 00:26:04,476 --> 00:26:06,556 Speaker 1: is what That was the key to the song for you. Yep. 415 00:26:06,596 --> 00:26:09,316 Speaker 1: That was a key of the song. It was a 416 00:26:09,356 --> 00:26:12,356 Speaker 1: two year song. Win in that two years, did you 417 00:26:12,396 --> 00:26:15,996 Speaker 1: go wait a second, Well, I think I remember something happened. 418 00:26:15,996 --> 00:26:20,676 Speaker 1: A parallel thing happened where I had a manager. I 419 00:26:20,876 --> 00:26:23,956 Speaker 1: was over time, trusting them less and less. I had 420 00:26:23,996 --> 00:26:28,396 Speaker 1: evidence that my trust might have been misplaced in this guy. 421 00:26:28,596 --> 00:26:30,996 Speaker 1: And he kept saying, Hey, Mary, look trust me. I'm 422 00:26:30,996 --> 00:26:34,116 Speaker 1: a good guy. And somewhere along the way, I went, 423 00:26:34,276 --> 00:26:37,956 Speaker 1: wait a minute, I know zero good guys who say that. Shit, 424 00:26:41,516 --> 00:26:44,436 Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop saying that. Bruce, don't tell people you're 425 00:26:44,436 --> 00:26:49,636 Speaker 1: a good guy. And I realized it's the unreliable narrator thing. 426 00:26:49,756 --> 00:26:51,956 Speaker 1: It's like, I know what I am. I don't give 427 00:26:51,996 --> 00:26:55,956 Speaker 1: a damn. And everybody who hears an alcoholic say that 428 00:26:56,516 --> 00:27:00,596 Speaker 1: says to himself, I don't believe you. Yeah, because when 429 00:27:00,636 --> 00:27:02,956 Speaker 1: you shout I don't give a damn, it means you do. 430 00:27:03,716 --> 00:27:05,956 Speaker 1: What interested me is is the first song you felt 431 00:27:06,036 --> 00:27:08,196 Speaker 1: was your own. It was a song that was not 432 00:27:08,276 --> 00:27:11,876 Speaker 1: in your voice, and it was a goddamn HIV. Can 433 00:27:11,916 --> 00:27:14,876 Speaker 1: you tell me a bit about that? Yeah, thanks for asking. Yeah, 434 00:27:14,916 --> 00:27:17,436 Speaker 1: that was the song that was written from the perspective 435 00:27:17,516 --> 00:27:20,716 Speaker 1: of a young man with the virus in the early 436 00:27:20,836 --> 00:27:24,076 Speaker 1: nineties who knew that he was probably going to die. 437 00:27:25,076 --> 00:27:27,996 Speaker 1: And while it was his voice, it was actually the 438 00:27:28,036 --> 00:27:33,276 Speaker 1: first experience I had of my writer's voice. That was 439 00:27:33,436 --> 00:27:38,356 Speaker 1: my voice. I was speaking in first person from behind 440 00:27:38,476 --> 00:27:41,796 Speaker 1: his eyes, but everything about it was me. I think 441 00:27:41,836 --> 00:27:45,836 Speaker 1: that that is really an interesting thing to talk about 442 00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:52,076 Speaker 1: his writer's voice. I think writer's voice can come through characters. 443 00:27:52,276 --> 00:27:55,116 Speaker 1: Tooling apart. Who's the writer and who's the character is 444 00:27:55,156 --> 00:27:58,996 Speaker 1: always interesting, you know the old saying that all biographist 445 00:27:58,996 --> 00:28:03,556 Speaker 1: fiction and all fictionist biography, there's a lot of me 446 00:28:03,956 --> 00:28:08,836 Speaker 1: in that guy. I talk about how that song was 447 00:28:08,876 --> 00:28:12,236 Speaker 1: influenced by all my heroes, but they wouldn't have written it. 448 00:28:12,476 --> 00:28:15,356 Speaker 1: That one was for me to write. Interesting like so 449 00:28:15,436 --> 00:28:17,156 Speaker 1: you're thinking of Dylan or other people or what he 450 00:28:17,236 --> 00:28:19,956 Speaker 1: got three, but they would have written it, No, not 451 00:28:20,076 --> 00:28:22,756 Speaker 1: first person. I couldn't imagine Steve roll saying I've been 452 00:28:22,756 --> 00:28:25,836 Speaker 1: a queer since the day I was born. But I 453 00:28:25,876 --> 00:28:28,796 Speaker 1: was gonna say that because Michael needed to say that 454 00:28:28,876 --> 00:28:32,516 Speaker 1: the character, right. You know, my name is Michael Joe Alexandra. 455 00:28:32,716 --> 00:28:34,556 Speaker 1: I've been a queer since the day I was born, 456 00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:38,076 Speaker 1: and it's just unapologetics, a matter of fact, like, let's 457 00:28:38,076 --> 00:28:40,236 Speaker 1: just get this on the table so that you can 458 00:28:40,276 --> 00:28:42,596 Speaker 1: self select the hell out of here. If that's what 459 00:28:42,716 --> 00:28:44,716 Speaker 1: you feel as though you need to do, and if 460 00:28:44,756 --> 00:28:46,916 Speaker 1: you want to stay around for the rest of the story, 461 00:28:46,996 --> 00:28:49,116 Speaker 1: I'm here to tell it to you. This is interesting 462 00:28:49,156 --> 00:28:51,996 Speaker 1: because you know the two things that work for me. 463 00:28:52,596 --> 00:28:55,116 Speaker 1: And one is the political part of the song. I 464 00:28:55,156 --> 00:28:57,076 Speaker 1: guess it's the middle eight. It's a it's just a 465 00:28:57,116 --> 00:29:01,516 Speaker 1: little couplet. I'm gonna get it wrong, but it's I 466 00:29:01,556 --> 00:29:04,516 Speaker 1: don't know what it all means. I don't think it 467 00:29:04,556 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 1: means what it seems yep. And the other part is 468 00:29:07,436 --> 00:29:11,076 Speaker 1: the last first where he goes back and remember him 469 00:29:11,076 --> 00:29:13,036 Speaker 1: being scared as a kid and his mother would turn 470 00:29:13,076 --> 00:29:15,316 Speaker 1: on the light. When did that come to you? When 471 00:29:15,316 --> 00:29:20,996 Speaker 1: you're right, that's intentional. I wanted people to envision themselves 472 00:29:22,356 --> 00:29:25,436 Speaker 1: in the story. When I had Michael Joe reflect back 473 00:29:25,556 --> 00:29:28,276 Speaker 1: on him being a boy being scared at night and 474 00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:30,516 Speaker 1: his mama would come and turn on the light. I 475 00:29:30,636 --> 00:29:33,916 Speaker 1: want every mama and daddy who heard that song to 476 00:29:33,996 --> 00:29:38,396 Speaker 1: imagine their child crying and going to the room and 477 00:29:38,556 --> 00:29:40,276 Speaker 1: picking him up and say it's Okay, it's okay, it's 478 00:29:40,316 --> 00:29:44,956 Speaker 1: just a dream. Because back then came in with AIDS, 479 00:29:44,956 --> 00:29:49,836 Speaker 1: We're we're being dehumanized. They were being treated as disposable 480 00:29:50,476 --> 00:29:54,556 Speaker 1: as Pariah's. I had a friend with the virus who 481 00:29:54,716 --> 00:29:57,836 Speaker 1: ended up in the Baton Rouge General Hospital with crime 482 00:29:57,876 --> 00:30:00,196 Speaker 1: scene tape on his door. They wouldn't even put the 483 00:30:00,236 --> 00:30:04,196 Speaker 1: meals in the room. His parents didn't even go visit him. 484 00:30:04,396 --> 00:30:08,356 Speaker 1: The hope with that, with that couplet was that people 485 00:30:08,396 --> 00:30:11,476 Speaker 1: could envision, Wow, this could happen to my kid. Yeah. 486 00:30:11,476 --> 00:30:12,916 Speaker 1: I didn't want to go for the anger. I wanted 487 00:30:12,996 --> 00:30:17,116 Speaker 1: to go for the empathy. Paul Simon said to us 488 00:30:17,196 --> 00:30:20,716 Speaker 1: that a lot of his songs start out angry and 489 00:30:20,796 --> 00:30:25,076 Speaker 1: he writes them until the anger is gone. I really 490 00:30:25,076 --> 00:30:27,996 Speaker 1: relate to that. Really, you start with anger, I don't 491 00:30:28,036 --> 00:30:31,396 Speaker 1: think anger's the I think there's a deeper emotional under anger, 492 00:30:31,396 --> 00:30:35,756 Speaker 1: and it's almost always hurt or fear. Which isn't to 493 00:30:35,796 --> 00:30:38,036 Speaker 1: say I don't like angry songs, but I'm trying to 494 00:30:38,076 --> 00:30:43,476 Speaker 1: go underneath a lot of what might make me angry 495 00:30:43,516 --> 00:30:46,996 Speaker 1: at first and see what's underneath that, And almost always 496 00:30:47,036 --> 00:30:51,956 Speaker 1: it's fear or or hurt. You know it hurt me 497 00:30:52,036 --> 00:30:54,916 Speaker 1: that that my friend Joey was treated like that at 498 00:30:54,916 --> 00:31:00,276 Speaker 1: the hospital, and that was painful. Like I was angry, 499 00:31:00,316 --> 00:31:04,116 Speaker 1: but underneath it was more like, gosh, you know, I 500 00:31:04,156 --> 00:31:07,036 Speaker 1: want people not to do this, and being angry about 501 00:31:07,036 --> 00:31:10,516 Speaker 1: it's not gonna change that maybe make it make them 502 00:31:10,516 --> 00:31:12,716 Speaker 1: feel it like it could happen to them, to their 503 00:31:12,716 --> 00:31:16,116 Speaker 1: own kids, because of course it could. Do You ever 504 00:31:16,156 --> 00:31:18,716 Speaker 1: have writer's block? Oh yeah, what's that? How do you 505 00:31:18,716 --> 00:31:20,956 Speaker 1: work through that? I just wait it out? Oh? Really? 506 00:31:21,116 --> 00:31:23,756 Speaker 1: Does it always come back? Life will deliver something that 507 00:31:23,876 --> 00:31:27,396 Speaker 1: and that brings me back. I don't force myself to 508 00:31:27,436 --> 00:31:29,836 Speaker 1: the page or to the guitar. I feel it and 509 00:31:29,916 --> 00:31:34,436 Speaker 1: it comes back. I don't panic. I definitely am writing 510 00:31:34,556 --> 00:31:36,396 Speaker 1: less than I used to. I don't feel as though 511 00:31:36,396 --> 00:31:39,196 Speaker 1: I have a lot to prove anymore. The songs still come, 512 00:31:39,356 --> 00:31:42,756 Speaker 1: and every couple of years I'll keep making records. That's interesting, 513 00:31:42,756 --> 00:31:44,396 Speaker 1: But you don't say you don't worry so much if 514 00:31:44,396 --> 00:31:46,756 Speaker 1: you're if you're if you're away from the guitar for 515 00:31:46,876 --> 00:31:50,556 Speaker 1: three weeks, ay, oh that's common. Yeah, yeah, so you're 516 00:31:50,556 --> 00:31:52,556 Speaker 1: not the I gotta sit down every day with I 517 00:31:52,676 --> 00:31:54,716 Speaker 1: used to be I had a lot of catching up 518 00:31:54,716 --> 00:31:57,036 Speaker 1: to do because I started late. Yeah, but you know, 519 00:31:57,156 --> 00:32:00,476 Speaker 1: ten records in I'm kind of like, hmm, yeah, I don't. 520 00:32:00,516 --> 00:32:03,156 Speaker 1: I don't write for a publisher with with you know, 521 00:32:03,196 --> 00:32:05,396 Speaker 1: you have to write twenty one songs a year to 522 00:32:05,476 --> 00:32:07,356 Speaker 1: keep your publishing deal. I don't have any of that 523 00:32:07,436 --> 00:32:10,356 Speaker 1: hanging over me, So all right when I have something 524 00:32:10,396 --> 00:32:14,236 Speaker 1: to say. When you wrote I Think Sweet Words, for 525 00:32:14,276 --> 00:32:16,276 Speaker 1: a long time, you thought you were describing the other 526 00:32:16,316 --> 00:32:18,876 Speaker 1: personal relationship, and you seem to have a lot of 527 00:32:18,876 --> 00:32:22,676 Speaker 1: those kind of clarifying moments you realize you were describing yourself. Yeah, 528 00:32:23,076 --> 00:32:26,356 Speaker 1: and the song flipped for you. Yaha moment, that's what 529 00:32:26,436 --> 00:32:29,156 Speaker 1: you want. That's why it's so connected to purpose for me, 530 00:32:29,196 --> 00:32:34,156 Speaker 1: because the song always teaches me. The song is the teacher. 531 00:32:34,596 --> 00:32:39,036 Speaker 1: I'm the student. Always. It doesn't make sense. It seems paradoxical. 532 00:32:39,196 --> 00:32:41,716 Speaker 1: Yes I'm writing it, but it's also writing me. There's 533 00:32:41,716 --> 00:32:45,516 Speaker 1: that famous Flannery O'Connor quote. It goes something like, I 534 00:32:45,636 --> 00:32:48,596 Speaker 1: write so I can read it so I can make 535 00:32:48,636 --> 00:32:52,436 Speaker 1: sense of what I think. Well, songs, I write so 536 00:32:52,476 --> 00:32:53,996 Speaker 1: I can sing it so I can make sense of 537 00:32:53,996 --> 00:32:56,556 Speaker 1: what I feel. We've talked about a lot of songs. 538 00:32:56,596 --> 00:32:58,756 Speaker 1: Is that one you like to play to maybe demonstrate 539 00:32:58,796 --> 00:33:02,996 Speaker 1: some of the things we've talked about. Well, I'd love 540 00:33:03,036 --> 00:33:22,076 Speaker 1: to hear a new song. May Turnity hold you in 541 00:33:22,236 --> 00:33:33,036 Speaker 1: the hollow of her hand. May a soft wind infold 542 00:33:33,276 --> 00:33:45,956 Speaker 1: you as you travel distant lands. May the moon stars 543 00:33:45,996 --> 00:34:00,716 Speaker 1: delight you as the daylight dims, to the morning sun 544 00:34:00,996 --> 00:34:19,116 Speaker 1: warms your face. Till I see you again. May you 545 00:34:19,236 --> 00:34:32,756 Speaker 1: lay down your struggle beneath a silver sky. May a 546 00:34:32,916 --> 00:34:46,916 Speaker 1: summarine inside your jeans sang a lullabye. May that be 547 00:34:47,516 --> 00:35:01,636 Speaker 1: no more sorrow, no more pain. May you sleep inside 548 00:35:02,076 --> 00:35:35,036 Speaker 1: the stillness of the night, tilice you again. May you 549 00:35:35,196 --> 00:35:48,796 Speaker 1: never be a stranger. May you never feel alone. May 550 00:35:48,836 --> 00:35:55,476 Speaker 1: you read unit with family and friends. May they walk 551 00:35:55,516 --> 00:36:08,596 Speaker 1: you home. May love embrace you in a dance that 552 00:36:08,836 --> 00:36:23,716 Speaker 1: never May you rest engine long to Lassie You again. 553 00:36:29,956 --> 00:36:48,916 Speaker 1: May you rest ed? To Lassie You again. That's Mary 554 00:36:48,916 --> 00:36:52,076 Speaker 1: Gochet singing till I See You Again from her upcoming 555 00:36:52,116 --> 00:36:54,676 Speaker 1: album We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll 556 00:36:54,716 --> 00:37:00,876 Speaker 1: be back with more. We're back with the rest of 557 00:37:00,916 --> 00:37:05,476 Speaker 1: Bruce Hedlum's conversation with Mary Gochet. You are a storyteller. 558 00:37:05,516 --> 00:37:08,676 Speaker 1: You're like John Prine that that you know, the sentences 559 00:37:08,676 --> 00:37:12,276 Speaker 1: tend to can act. But in a couple of songs 560 00:37:12,276 --> 00:37:15,436 Speaker 1: you've done this where you just use phrases. And one 561 00:37:15,476 --> 00:37:20,156 Speaker 1: of my favorites is is Mommy Here, Mama Gone. It's 562 00:37:20,196 --> 00:37:22,996 Speaker 1: just it's almost like like David Byrne Wright songs that way. 563 00:37:23,036 --> 00:37:25,556 Speaker 1: He just they're just phrases he writes and he strings together. 564 00:37:25,796 --> 00:37:27,996 Speaker 1: Do you remember writing that? How did you choose that 565 00:37:28,076 --> 00:37:32,396 Speaker 1: for that song? That was a tough one that record cycle, 566 00:37:33,156 --> 00:37:36,516 Speaker 1: the songs of the Foundling, that took quite a while 567 00:37:36,676 --> 00:37:40,116 Speaker 1: to execute. I don't have a great memory of writing 568 00:37:40,116 --> 00:37:46,036 Speaker 1: that one. I know that the song was definitely inspired 569 00:37:46,076 --> 00:37:49,476 Speaker 1: by the John Lennon song Mother. What was inspirational about 570 00:37:49,476 --> 00:37:54,556 Speaker 1: that song for you? His absolute vulnerability that that song, 571 00:37:54,596 --> 00:37:56,876 Speaker 1: if you really listen to it, that's a frightening song. 572 00:37:57,956 --> 00:38:02,756 Speaker 1: It's an extremely unlikely single for a post Beatles record 573 00:38:02,876 --> 00:38:07,636 Speaker 1: from John Lennon. He was extremely vulnerable in that song. 574 00:38:08,716 --> 00:38:10,716 Speaker 1: And if you read the lyric, it's hard not to 575 00:38:10,756 --> 00:38:13,956 Speaker 1: cry mother, you had me, but I never had you. 576 00:38:14,796 --> 00:38:19,676 Speaker 1: I mean, that's sprutal, that's painful, and I just gotta 577 00:38:19,716 --> 00:38:22,996 Speaker 1: tell you goodbye. And then in the end he's screaming, Mama, 578 00:38:23,076 --> 00:38:27,236 Speaker 1: don't go, Daddy, come home. That little person inside him 579 00:38:28,676 --> 00:38:31,996 Speaker 1: is traumatizing what happened to him as a boy, and 580 00:38:32,716 --> 00:38:35,676 Speaker 1: he ended up in that therapy with Janov trying to 581 00:38:35,716 --> 00:38:40,156 Speaker 1: scream it out. And that showed me the way and 582 00:38:40,156 --> 00:38:43,716 Speaker 1: in my own work around my adoption trauma. I spent 583 00:38:43,756 --> 00:38:47,596 Speaker 1: my first year in an orphanage and didn't understand I 584 00:38:47,636 --> 00:38:51,356 Speaker 1: was traumatized at all until I understood in my mid 585 00:38:51,396 --> 00:38:55,596 Speaker 1: forties that, oh wow, this is what drove the addiction 586 00:38:57,276 --> 00:39:00,596 Speaker 1: that relinquishment. I think I'll be dealing with relinquishment my 587 00:39:00,636 --> 00:39:05,596 Speaker 1: whole life and the experience of being terrified of being abandoned. 588 00:39:06,076 --> 00:39:09,396 Speaker 1: And it's a gold mine for songs I've written that 589 00:39:09,436 --> 00:39:12,716 Speaker 1: plays a lot. So MoMA here, Mama gone kind of 590 00:39:12,836 --> 00:39:18,636 Speaker 1: encapsulates it, like, wait a minute, where are you? What 591 00:39:18,716 --> 00:39:22,676 Speaker 1: do you mean? It doesn't make sense that you're never 592 00:39:22,716 --> 00:39:26,676 Speaker 1: coming back. It's from the voice of an infant who 593 00:39:26,676 --> 00:39:30,596 Speaker 1: can't say such things. Oh so that's like the lack 594 00:39:30,636 --> 00:39:34,236 Speaker 1: of connection between it's just their little impressions. Almost. Yeah, 595 00:39:34,236 --> 00:39:36,716 Speaker 1: it need to be real simple in a way. A 596 00:39:36,796 --> 00:39:41,316 Speaker 1: baby is crying this. Yeah, Now, is there something wrong 597 00:39:41,316 --> 00:39:45,516 Speaker 1: with me that I actually prefer John Lennon's song Julia 598 00:39:45,636 --> 00:39:48,236 Speaker 1: to Mother because that's also about his mother. Well, mother's 599 00:39:48,596 --> 00:39:51,596 Speaker 1: painful song to listen to. It's a painful song to listen. 600 00:39:51,676 --> 00:39:54,276 Speaker 1: Maybe it's not. Maybe I find it almost a little embarrassing. 601 00:39:54,356 --> 00:39:56,516 Speaker 1: It's a little too painful for me. It's a lot. 602 00:39:56,916 --> 00:40:00,116 Speaker 1: I understand what he was doing. He wasn't doing the 603 00:40:00,236 --> 00:40:03,956 Speaker 1: music business in that song. He was trying not to drown, 604 00:40:04,436 --> 00:40:08,676 Speaker 1: and I get that. And it's a serious song. It's 605 00:40:08,756 --> 00:40:12,556 Speaker 1: not oh blade, oh blah da. It is help and 606 00:40:12,796 --> 00:40:14,956 Speaker 1: I love that he had the courage to do it, 607 00:40:15,236 --> 00:40:17,316 Speaker 1: and it's a roadmap for people who want to use 608 00:40:17,316 --> 00:40:21,316 Speaker 1: songs and music for more than entertainment. There's not a 609 00:40:21,316 --> 00:40:24,596 Speaker 1: lot of entertainment in that song, but I think that 610 00:40:24,636 --> 00:40:30,516 Speaker 1: the song is a manual to articulating things through song 611 00:40:31,156 --> 00:40:33,756 Speaker 1: that need to be said or they could kill you. 612 00:40:33,876 --> 00:40:36,676 Speaker 1: Back to the beginning of my book, which you do 613 00:40:36,756 --> 00:40:41,356 Speaker 1: not bring forth will kill you. He had to write it, 614 00:40:41,916 --> 00:40:44,636 Speaker 1: and I deeply respect it, and it gave me permission 615 00:40:44,716 --> 00:40:47,756 Speaker 1: to do the work I needed to do. You've mentioned 616 00:40:47,796 --> 00:40:50,556 Speaker 1: permission a couple of times even during your career. Have 617 00:40:50,636 --> 00:40:52,356 Speaker 1: you felt I don't have permission to do that. Do 618 00:40:52,356 --> 00:40:56,516 Speaker 1: you still feel that with songs? I think permission is nice. 619 00:40:56,596 --> 00:41:01,716 Speaker 1: I think having people come before me and point to 620 00:41:01,876 --> 00:41:06,436 Speaker 1: what's possible and show me the way is I think 621 00:41:06,436 --> 00:41:10,396 Speaker 1: that I'm I'm in a tradition. I follow in the 622 00:41:10,716 --> 00:41:15,476 Speaker 1: inside a tradition. One of the greats I think Nancy Griffith, 623 00:41:15,836 --> 00:41:20,636 Speaker 1: you know she, she I think was a trailblazer in 624 00:41:20,676 --> 00:41:24,996 Speaker 1: many ways. She followed behind a lot of men, Texas men. 625 00:41:26,156 --> 00:41:30,316 Speaker 1: The permission was granted sometimes in permission denied other times, 626 00:41:30,996 --> 00:41:35,436 Speaker 1: but her work gives young women permission to go places 627 00:41:35,476 --> 00:41:38,596 Speaker 1: where where they might not have gone before her. And 628 00:41:38,676 --> 00:41:42,996 Speaker 1: Loretta Lens music gave Nancy permission, I mean, think of 629 00:41:42,996 --> 00:41:46,516 Speaker 1: it in country music. There the women often were singers 630 00:41:46,756 --> 00:41:49,516 Speaker 1: and the songwriters wrote the songs. But Loretta wrote her 631 00:41:49,556 --> 00:41:52,876 Speaker 1: own songs. And I would venture to say Nancy would 632 00:41:52,916 --> 00:41:58,316 Speaker 1: say that gave me permission, like in a metaphorical way, 633 00:41:58,436 --> 00:42:03,156 Speaker 1: like like oh, we can do this. Are there other 634 00:42:03,436 --> 00:42:06,796 Speaker 1: songwriters that you feel gave you permission? You mentioned John Pryn, 635 00:42:06,916 --> 00:42:10,636 Speaker 1: John Lennon, Oh yeah, John Pryn, John Lennon, Bruce Springsteen, 636 00:42:10,916 --> 00:42:17,796 Speaker 1: Woody Gosh Yeah, Woody and Bruce and Leonard and Patti 637 00:42:17,876 --> 00:42:22,556 Speaker 1: Smith and Lucien to Steve Earle, still is is writing 638 00:42:22,556 --> 00:42:24,756 Speaker 1: at the top of his game. Um, you know, I 639 00:42:24,796 --> 00:42:29,516 Speaker 1: think something really happened when the Nobel Committee gave Dylan 640 00:42:30,036 --> 00:42:34,356 Speaker 1: the Nobel Prize for Literature. I know one thing that 641 00:42:34,396 --> 00:42:39,076 Speaker 1: happened is it made a lot of writers authors very angry. 642 00:42:39,316 --> 00:42:44,156 Speaker 1: But it also, I think acknowledged that songwriting can be literature. 643 00:42:44,396 --> 00:42:46,396 Speaker 1: I would argue maybe there needs to be a category 644 00:42:46,476 --> 00:42:49,676 Speaker 1: for songwriting because songwriters can be can be the author's 645 00:42:49,676 --> 00:42:52,356 Speaker 1: hands down over and over, because we have melody, and 646 00:42:52,556 --> 00:42:55,716 Speaker 1: melody is a highway to the heart. But I think 647 00:42:55,756 --> 00:43:02,036 Speaker 1: that there's a permission in that that yeah, yeah, right, 648 00:43:02,316 --> 00:43:07,636 Speaker 1: at a very high level, it is. It is, um 649 00:43:08,036 --> 00:43:11,636 Speaker 1: a form of literature. You actually had a great quote 650 00:43:11,676 --> 00:43:13,556 Speaker 1: in your book about songs, which I wrote down. The 651 00:43:13,636 --> 00:43:17,436 Speaker 1: songs were the most distilled of the arts, the most clarified. 652 00:43:18,036 --> 00:43:22,156 Speaker 1: That's your cooking background right there. Accessible and democratic. I 653 00:43:22,196 --> 00:43:24,596 Speaker 1: think you don't need a college education to go to 654 00:43:24,636 --> 00:43:27,796 Speaker 1: a show and listen to music, whereas walking into art 655 00:43:27,876 --> 00:43:31,236 Speaker 1: museum is a little intimidating. But with music, man, you 656 00:43:31,276 --> 00:43:32,916 Speaker 1: just put your money down and go to the show 657 00:43:33,716 --> 00:43:37,036 Speaker 1: and you get it because you feel it It's always 658 00:43:37,116 --> 00:43:39,396 Speaker 1: a little alarming when you go to a show and 659 00:43:39,476 --> 00:43:41,636 Speaker 1: you realize how many other people are reacting to the 660 00:43:41,636 --> 00:43:45,276 Speaker 1: song because you thought it was yours and it's everybody's thing. Yeah, 661 00:43:45,316 --> 00:43:47,996 Speaker 1: you mentioned listen to Williams and you talk about taking 662 00:43:47,996 --> 00:43:51,516 Speaker 1: a trick from her from her song change the Lots. Yeah, 663 00:43:51,876 --> 00:43:55,156 Speaker 1: in I think it's me now. Yeah, tell me about 664 00:43:55,316 --> 00:43:57,476 Speaker 1: tell me about that. Yeah. It was stuck with Mercy 665 00:43:57,476 --> 00:43:59,036 Speaker 1: now and I didn't know where to go from my 666 00:43:59,076 --> 00:44:04,676 Speaker 1: own sort of life. How did I how do I 667 00:44:04,796 --> 00:44:07,156 Speaker 1: move this song forward? I'm talking about my father, I'm 668 00:44:07,196 --> 00:44:09,596 Speaker 1: talking about my brother, I'm trying to work in my 669 00:44:09,636 --> 00:44:12,036 Speaker 1: mother and my sister, and they just kept bucking out. 670 00:44:12,076 --> 00:44:14,596 Speaker 1: It's like they don't really belong here. And I didn't 671 00:44:14,636 --> 00:44:16,876 Speaker 1: quite know where to go. So I went to lunch 672 00:44:17,396 --> 00:44:21,596 Speaker 1: and I thought, wait a minute, Lou has this song 673 00:44:21,756 --> 00:44:24,876 Speaker 1: Change the Locks, and I have my laptop with me, 674 00:44:24,916 --> 00:44:27,356 Speaker 1: so I look at it. I'm like, oh man, her 675 00:44:27,436 --> 00:44:30,996 Speaker 1: camera lens is on a dolly and it gets surreal. 676 00:44:31,116 --> 00:44:33,036 Speaker 1: Towards the end, she's going to change the name of 677 00:44:33,036 --> 00:44:36,756 Speaker 1: the town. She starts, I'm gonna change the locks on 678 00:44:36,796 --> 00:44:38,556 Speaker 1: the door so you can't come here. Anymore. And the 679 00:44:38,596 --> 00:44:40,316 Speaker 1: next thing you know, she's changing the tracks on the 680 00:44:40,316 --> 00:44:42,876 Speaker 1: train and the name of the town. And I realized 681 00:44:42,916 --> 00:44:46,196 Speaker 1: that camera lens backs up further and further, and the 682 00:44:47,076 --> 00:44:50,836 Speaker 1: perspective becomes wider and wider. It's like, that's what I 683 00:44:50,916 --> 00:44:53,236 Speaker 1: need to do. And so I went from my father 684 00:44:53,516 --> 00:44:57,516 Speaker 1: and brother, to my church, my country, to all of life, 685 00:44:57,556 --> 00:45:00,636 Speaker 1: every living thing, and then everyone the camera's on a dolly. 686 00:45:00,676 --> 00:45:02,756 Speaker 1: It backs up and it worked, And I want to 687 00:45:02,756 --> 00:45:05,516 Speaker 1: thank Lucy to Williams for that, who probably got that 688 00:45:05,636 --> 00:45:08,556 Speaker 1: technique from Robert Johnson or some bluesman because she's an 689 00:45:08,556 --> 00:45:11,996 Speaker 1: expert on the blues. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. So it's 690 00:45:11,996 --> 00:45:15,316 Speaker 1: the same shot, if you're talking about just broadening it out, Yeah, 691 00:45:15,356 --> 00:45:18,956 Speaker 1: the same, the same shot, getting wider and wider. You 692 00:45:19,076 --> 00:45:21,276 Speaker 1: use another technique, and it does come out of folk music, 693 00:45:21,356 --> 00:45:24,116 Speaker 1: which is you'll repeat a single line. You don't do 694 00:45:24,156 --> 00:45:27,036 Speaker 1: it a lot, you do it beautifully in The Orphan King, 695 00:45:28,276 --> 00:45:32,956 Speaker 1: which is just a series of misfortunes that the orphan 696 00:45:32,996 --> 00:45:35,276 Speaker 1: goes through. And then I think every does every line 697 00:45:35,276 --> 00:45:38,836 Speaker 1: finish with Hail, Hail the Orphan King. Yeah, yeah, it 698 00:45:38,876 --> 00:45:41,796 Speaker 1: still ends, but it ends with but I still believe 699 00:45:41,796 --> 00:45:44,156 Speaker 1: in love. I still believe in love. Yeah, And I 700 00:45:44,196 --> 00:45:46,876 Speaker 1: think in that song, I was trying to convince myself. 701 00:45:47,196 --> 00:45:51,556 Speaker 1: Oh that's the need for repetition was because I was 702 00:45:51,596 --> 00:45:54,756 Speaker 1: trying to really convince myself. Yeah. I think that was 703 00:45:54,756 --> 00:45:56,836 Speaker 1: a motive for June, and I knew that it was. 704 00:45:58,316 --> 00:46:01,316 Speaker 1: It was needed. The records so intense and the songs 705 00:46:01,356 --> 00:46:05,316 Speaker 1: are so laced with trauma, like mother like, it's like 706 00:46:05,356 --> 00:46:09,196 Speaker 1: this is almost unlistenable. We need something that ends this 707 00:46:09,316 --> 00:46:12,556 Speaker 1: thing with faith. And so what am I going to 708 00:46:12,636 --> 00:46:17,996 Speaker 1: believe in? Well, I'm going to believe in love, I think. Okay. 709 00:46:18,036 --> 00:46:20,596 Speaker 1: So we talked a lot about your techniques, which I'm 710 00:46:20,596 --> 00:46:23,716 Speaker 1: fascinated by because I love that stuff, the healing power. 711 00:46:23,756 --> 00:46:26,636 Speaker 1: I mean you when you say saved by a song 712 00:46:28,076 --> 00:46:32,636 Speaker 1: that's the title of your book, you mean that, yes? Literally? Yeah. 713 00:46:32,636 --> 00:46:34,556 Speaker 1: Where would you have been if you didn't go to 714 00:46:34,636 --> 00:46:37,796 Speaker 1: that open mic night? I don't know, I don't know. 715 00:46:38,756 --> 00:46:43,596 Speaker 1: I know this that when you get sober, it becomes 716 00:46:43,596 --> 00:46:47,396 Speaker 1: harder and harder to stay sober. If you don't have purpose, 717 00:46:48,276 --> 00:46:52,236 Speaker 1: you gotta get sober and then fine purpose. You had 718 00:46:52,236 --> 00:46:55,436 Speaker 1: two restaurants, you were successful. Money didn't do it and 719 00:46:55,556 --> 00:47:00,356 Speaker 1: Jambalaia didn't do it. My purpose wasn't ever going to 720 00:47:00,436 --> 00:47:04,596 Speaker 1: be restaurant tour. I wasn't emotionally, it didn't go deep 721 00:47:04,716 --> 00:47:07,396 Speaker 1: enough for me. For a lot of people, it's it's 722 00:47:07,396 --> 00:47:10,196 Speaker 1: their purpose, and they have a great life owning running 723 00:47:10,236 --> 00:47:11,956 Speaker 1: restaurants and that's what they were put here to do. 724 00:47:12,076 --> 00:47:14,636 Speaker 1: And for me, it just wasn't going to be. It 725 00:47:14,756 --> 00:47:18,436 Speaker 1: didn't It didn't feel deep enough for me. Also, I 726 00:47:18,436 --> 00:47:21,156 Speaker 1: didn't like having a big, large staff that I had 727 00:47:21,196 --> 00:47:25,516 Speaker 1: to take care of. I wasn't a great boss, and 728 00:47:24,596 --> 00:47:29,276 Speaker 1: I'm still not a great boss. And I really am 729 00:47:29,356 --> 00:47:35,196 Speaker 1: better with fewer people. And so I like the independence 730 00:47:35,716 --> 00:47:40,596 Speaker 1: and the constant challenge of being a troubadour and always, always, 731 00:47:40,636 --> 00:47:43,516 Speaker 1: always the blank page. It's not like this job ever 732 00:47:43,556 --> 00:47:49,476 Speaker 1: gets done. My recovery is deeply attached to writing songs 733 00:47:49,516 --> 00:47:53,636 Speaker 1: and to writing and that is my purpose. My purposes 734 00:47:53,716 --> 00:47:58,236 Speaker 1: to tell stories and sing to people and make these 735 00:47:58,236 --> 00:48:01,636 Speaker 1: connections and so save by a song. I think also 736 00:48:01,716 --> 00:48:05,436 Speaker 1: the music has been therapeutic for me quite frankly. It's 737 00:48:05,476 --> 00:48:09,036 Speaker 1: given me ways to work through really hard and complex 738 00:48:09,196 --> 00:48:12,636 Speaker 1: trauma and emotion. It's a great book. Everybody read from 739 00:48:12,636 --> 00:48:18,756 Speaker 1: the start Yeah's just been wonderful. Thanks to Mary Gasche 740 00:48:19,076 --> 00:48:23,036 Speaker 1: for graciously talking us through her songwriting technique and inspiration. 741 00:48:23,556 --> 00:48:25,356 Speaker 1: You can check out a playlist of all the songs 742 00:48:25,436 --> 00:48:29,076 Speaker 1: mentioned in this episode at broken Record podcast dot com. 743 00:48:29,116 --> 00:48:32,596 Speaker 1: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record broken Record. 744 00:48:32,596 --> 00:48:35,276 Speaker 1: It is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, 745 00:48:35,596 --> 00:48:40,636 Speaker 1: Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help 746 00:48:40,676 --> 00:48:44,676 Speaker 1: from Nick Chafey. Our executive producer is Maio LaBelle Broken 747 00:48:44,716 --> 00:48:48,116 Speaker 1: Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love 748 00:48:48,156 --> 00:48:52,236 Speaker 1: this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. 749 00:48:52,636 --> 00:48:56,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content 750 00:48:56,476 --> 00:48:59,716 Speaker 1: and uninterrupted ad free listening for fourning on a month. 751 00:49:00,036 --> 00:49:04,076 Speaker 1: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and please 752 00:49:04,116 --> 00:49:06,556 Speaker 1: remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast. 753 00:49:06,636 --> 00:49:08,916 Speaker 1: To aff our theme musics by Kenny Beats, I'm Just 754 00:49:09,156 --> 00:49:09,516 Speaker 1: Image