WEBVTT - Rice's Actions in Trump Intelligence May Be Improper, Lake Says 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.920 Brought you by Bank of America Mary Lynch. Investing in 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:07.840 local communities, economies and a sustainable future. That's the power 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:12.360 of global connections. Mary Lynch, Pierce Fenner, and Smith Incorporated 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:27.400 member s I p C. Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:31.520 I'm Tom Keene with David Gura. Daily we bring you 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:36.600 insight from the best in economics, finance, investment, and international relations. 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:41.600 Find Bloomberg Surveillance on iTunes, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot Com, and 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:49.400 of course, on the Bloomberg Bomb Formats. Is the vice 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.280 chairman of Kissinger Associate's former Under Secretary of State for 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:54.960 Economic Growth, Energy, and the Environment. He joins us now 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.400 in Bloomberg eleven three studios. But I'm good to see you, 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.200 good to be here as always. Let's start with this 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:01.720 meeting in Florida. Uh, we've seen the president try to 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.200 forge priest relationships with world leaders a few times now 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:08.160 since he took office. What's gonna be particularly different about 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:12.080 this encounter in Florida. Well, he's going to have to 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:17.080 take the measure of President Shijin Ping, who's a very formidable, 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:21.720 very skillful, very authoritative guy. He knows what he's doing. 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.440 He's been in office for quite some time, he has 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:27.040 a lot of power. He knows that he wants to 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:31.280 get out of this meeting, and I think Donald Trump 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:32.800 is going to have to do a lot of listening. 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:35.839 He doesn't know much about China, and I suspect Hijin 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:39.480 Ping will make a number of points about Chinese policy 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:43.440 that may be new to Trump's ears. So I think 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.320 it would be useful. I know Chijin Ping reasonably well. 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:48.080 I've met him a number of times. He's a very 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:52.960 impressive person and a very a very strong figure, and 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:57.400 he will be articulate in explaining China's views. Where China 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.360 can work with the US and where China feel it 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.800 can't work with the US. There are various areas. I 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.160 think they do want to work on North Korea. They 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.520 don't have as much influence as we perhaps think they do, 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:10.880 but they do have some. They certainly want to work 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:13.760 in dealing with terrorism. They want to work on climate 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:17.280 to the extent Trump wants to work on climate, and 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:22.560 they're now developing this very very ambitious, very I think 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:27.560 positive generally notion of increasing infrastructure in the region, and 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.080 a lot of American companies would like to participate in this. 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.640 The question is is Trump going to be willing to 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.560 allow that kind of participation to occur. So President Trump 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.079 doesn't know China well. On whom is he relying to 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.359 to to inform him on how the country works today? 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.240 He has some very capable people on the National Security 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:48.240 Council staff that will do this. Uh he He also 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:52.240 seems to be relying on his son in law, Jared Kushner. 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:56.239 I don't know how it is in a rock he'll 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.120 be dealing with China. But there are good people on 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.280 the National Secure Council staff, but the State Department is 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.919 not at full complement. A lot of the China experts 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.880 are there in the State Department among Foreign service officers, 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.720 but there is not an Assistant Secretary for the Far East, 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:17.520 non assistant secretary for many other functions as well. But 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:19.600 I suspect he'll get some good advice, but he has 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.160 to listen to the advice. He has to understand the 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:26.359 history of U. S. China relations, and he has to 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:30.680 measure his words very carefully because he has to be understood. 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.040 And if he appears not to really understand what's going 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.320 on in China, not to have any sense of Chinese history. 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.840 To make statements like he has in the past, I 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.360 think it will cause a lot of confusion. This is 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:47.560 a very important meeting because almost nothing constructive will be 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.280 dying internationally in the world over the next four to 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:54.360 eight to twelve years without a substantial measure of US 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.840 Chinese cooperation. He has to figure out a framework with 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:01.960 President Shooting Ping four. That kind of cooperation China is 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.560 very important. Americans should understand it. You can't push them 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:09.800 around there there they have strong nationalistic pressures. Internally in China, 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.400 they won't be pushed around. The way you deal with 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.480 them is to work with them in a constructive fashion. 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:18.960 Trump's negotiating tactics may work in the real estate area, 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.719 they're probably not going to work, almost certainly not going 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.440 to work in dealing with China if he takes that 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.760 sort of pugnacious approach that he sometimes does. Performance. You've 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:29.839 been partied to meetings like this before, you say, met 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.400 that the Chinese president several times as well. How do 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.040 they unfold what's what's going to happen here? How much 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.200 is the formality going to eclipse the opportunity here for 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:38.719 these two leaders to get to know each other on 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:40.720 any sort of personal level. Well, I suspect this will 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.240 be somewhat less formal than the meetings, given the sets 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.880 they were in Washington, given the setting, But they have 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:47.880 to get to know one another, and the best way 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:52.120 of doing that is for President Trump to listen to 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.119 President Hinjin Ping and hear what he has to say 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:59.640 first before weighing in with his thoughts. He can learn 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.640 uh a lot about China from listening to President She 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.479 and then say what he has to say. But the 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.320 United States has a problem. That is, we really don't 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.279 have an Asian strategy yet, we haven't put it together. 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:14.800 Is it that we want to be tough on trade? 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:18.400 What is our position in the on the question of 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.400 the islands and the South China Sea? What is our 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:25.320 position on Korea? The Chinese will have and do have 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.640 a strategy. We may or may not agree with the strategy, 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:30.880 but they have developed a strategy over a number of 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.800 years for the region and for the world. President She 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:37.839 announced a lot of that in Davos. We don't have 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.640 one yet, we haven't taken the time to put one together. 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:43.920 That puts President Trump at a disadvantage. He'll be making 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.679 a number of statements, But the Chinese are gonna wonder 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.279 are they part of a broader strategy or they ad 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.920 hoc and are they going to be follow it up? 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.320 Are they going to be ad hoc and then change 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:57.720 the next day or the next week, which creates a 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:02.320 sense of unreliability and and and misunderstanding. Well, what's the 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:04.839 worst press conference you ever had? Were you on a 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.920 plane traveling somewhere and you said, geez, I wish the 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:12.159 press wasn't here. Did that ever happen to Ambassador Worm answer? 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.280 I always like the press being there because I think 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:20.039 you normally could on planes have good conversations with the 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:23.560 press on an informal, off the record basis and explain 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:28.440 not just what the policy is or was, but give background. 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.719 And I think it's important to have background so the 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.000 press can understand not just what the policy is, but 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.960 how you got there, what the basis of the policy. Critically, 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:41.520 is Secretary Tillison's policy a new policy or do you 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.760 look at it as bombing him back to John Hay 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:49.040 or do you know Secretary Route or whoever. I think 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.640 he would be far better served by bringing the press 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:56.760 along on his trips. Every Secretary of State I've traveled with, 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.680 and I've traveled with seven or eight of them have 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:07.680 always starting with Rogers Vote to Panama. That was a 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.520 lovely trip in those days. But you know, with Secretary 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:16.960 Kissinger and and many other subsequent Secretary Kissinger, they've always 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:20.760 found a way of working with the press. Not the 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:22.880 press always agrees with them or they always agree with 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:26.040 the press, but they were able to use the fact 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.520 that the press was on the plane to give background information, 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.480 not just the policy, but why the policy was put 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:37.600 forward the way it was. What are the underlying reasons 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.600 for the policy, what are the underlying facts? To give 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.320 the press background so they can write their stories. They 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.680 may agree or not agree, but at least you can 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.600 give them background, get to know them, and it works 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:50.640 very well. It always worked for me, it always worked 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.720 for a number of the secretaries I've traveled with, and 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:58.440 I think that the American people deserve to have a 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:02.000 press traveling with the Secretary of State so they can 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:07.080 communicate the policies more clearly and thoughtfully and with sufficient background. 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.080 That's does Rex Taylerson have more of a worldview, world 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:13.200 outlook than this white as you talked about not having 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.360 the strategy here going into this meeting with China at 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.840 least not knowing it. Where's that Where's that strategy being devised? 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.920 I assume it's being devised primarily in the National Security 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.480 Council among National Security Council staff. But if they're wise, 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:31.600 they will call on the experts in the State Department 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.000 who know China very well. Many of them have served 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.559 a long time in China, and I think they can 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.200 add a great deal to the thought process that goes 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:44.040 into putting together what the President says and and putting 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.280 together a strategy. If that's indeed what they intend to do. 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.360 But since you don't have a lot of people at 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.280 higher levels, it's become a very difficult process to put 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:56.040 a strategy together. Let's come back with Ambassador harm Mats 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.640 of Kissinger Associates. Of course, this public service to the 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:04.160 Obama administration some important thoughts. They're linking uh State Department 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.000 matters into Treasury and fiscal policy. Maybe coming back, we'll 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.160 talk about some of the constraints that any administration were 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:15.040 to have with the dynamics of our debt and deficits. 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.760 Let's rip up the script. I mean, come on, David, 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.640 you have no sleep. You know your team, one our 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:26.120 executive producers gonna achieve sainthood. So let's rip up the 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:31.440 script of Robert Pimtz Bob the French election. We are 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:36.719 distant from Shirock Mitterran Valerie just started to staying. I 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.320 just got an email from Anthony from Sparta. He wants 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.640 to hear my French. He loved it on TV this 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:48.959 morning tonight. There's a debate. There's all people debating exact mole. 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:53.280 They're becoming American like, but they're not. You know, the 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.960 French are not becoming American like. They are not. But 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.920 there is a very bright star on the French horizon. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:05.640 Emmanuel mccron. Macron was the economic minister in the alarmed 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.680 government earlier on. I know him very well. He's a 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:12.400 very good friend. He used to work for Rothschild. He's 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:16.160 an internationalist. He's a fresh new face on the horizon. 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:19.080 He's doing very well in the polls and I do 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:22.520 believe that if he were elected president of France, it 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.600 would be a very positive boost for France and a 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:29.800 very positive boost for Europe and for French American relations. 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.200 I think he's a new rising star and a very 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:38.320 positive force on the French political scene. What's the central 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.079 issue here in this election is it? Is it to 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:42.800 membership in the EU? Can you paint with his broader 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.000 brushes that I think it's much more the economy and 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:48.000 how to deal with the economy. How to get the 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:52.160 economy going on a sustained basis, uh that would be 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.040 number one. The second is how to work with the 0:10:55.120 --> 0:11:00.880 other major EU partners. Assuming Merkel is re elected, or 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:03.640 at least as the head of a coalition that's reelected 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.640 may be different from the one she has now, she 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.160 would be an important partner. The Dutch have come through 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:13.720 without moving to this populace right that some people feared. 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:16.880 So it may well be that the rising tide of 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:20.840 the populace right is now receding, and it would received 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.120 a lot further if Matt Crown were elected. So I 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:26.840 think working with the other Europeans is important, and also 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:33.480 strengthening NATO. The French understand. I believe that a strong NATO, 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.840 a coherent EU, strong relationship with the US all are 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:40.680 very important to the future of France. And you need 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:43.440 someone who is pragmatic to do that. So bring about 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.280 Uncle a Merca. We last spoke. I think before she 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.080 went to the White House, and we were talking about 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.440 what you were going to be observing as all of 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.280 that unfolded. Uh, I'm sure you watched it. I'm sure 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.360 you listen to the to the press conference after US 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.120 Ambassador Harmon at the steam was coming out of this 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.120 so much. He was melting ice trying to be diplomatic. 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:03.560 I was trying to be diplomatic. But where where does 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.320 that relationship go from from what we sought the White House? Well, 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:09.480 what I don't understand is that Trump does not seem 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:14.480 to have the background, um, the historical background to really 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.920 understand the origins of Native the origins of the EU, 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.120 and why they're so important to the US. The US 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:25.880 was a great power after World War Two, impart because 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.680 it had a strong economy and a strong military, but 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:33.240 it was also great power because it developed strong alliances. 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.960 It worked to strengthen European unity, which was important for 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:41.120 stability in Europe and also to counter the spread of 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:46.320 Soviet Communism during the Cold War. Now we need Europe 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.679 as a partner, UH, to deal with a number of 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.680 things that Putin is doing in various parts of Europe. 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:58.920 He's trying to undermine European cohesion cause fragmentation within European 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.520 countries and among them, and certainly in NATO. We need 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.760 a strong Europe to resist that kind of thing. And 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.240 and that's really what he has to understand, that that 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.480 a strong Europe can be a big asset. If you 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.120 want to make America great again, you need to have 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:20.640 also great allies, great friendships, great partnerships, and that should 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.959 be part of a make America great strategy if that's 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.640 the strategy he wants to pursue. But you're not going 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.480 to be great if you have only a strong economy 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.080 and a strong military and you have weak allies. That 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.880 will not make America great again. He's got to make 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:38.040 sure our allies are great again. Working with Merkel, working 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.760 with Macrol if he's elected, working with other European leaders 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.360 is very definitely a part of that process, or at 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:48.679 least should be in the need of strategy for doing it. Ambassador, 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:50.520 Thank you so much, kind of you to come into 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.120 just so much to talk about um just an extraordinary 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:58.240 time and the Crystal much more from our Washington News bureau. 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.240 Eli Lake, Who's Bloomberg View column last night came out 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:16.560 in the afternoon percolated in the afternoon. It really blew 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.240 up about four pm UH last night over Susan Rice 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:25.760 of the Obama administration requesting the names and documents that 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:28.960 have been blacked out had been redacted. Mr Lake joins 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.360 us right now, I know David's got some important questions. Eli. 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:36.000 I look at the Google feed and it's just as 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:40.560 polarized as you would imagine. Susan Rice unmasked Trump team. 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.960 The latest wire tap bombshell turns out to be another 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.680 dud unmasking reporter. This is bigger than Trump that of 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:51.120 course some Fox News insider, which is it, Eli Lake? 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:57.560 Who should take comfort from your Bloomberg view piece? At 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:01.640 this point, I'm really reluctant to right to say, you 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:03.480 know where the story is going to end, because I'm 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:08.400 still reporting it. UM. I think it's important for the 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:13.560 Trump supporters to recognize that this was a unique situation. 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:19.240 After the election, there were credible allegations that UM that 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.760 there was credible information I should say, an intelligence community 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.600 had concluded the Russians tried to influence the election. There 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.720 was an active FBI investigation that was confirmed last months 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.520 UH into the Trump campaign to see if they UH 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.040 collaborated in some way with the Russians in this influenced operation. 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:39.400 Susan Rice would have had to have known about that. 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.520 And even though we my my reporting says that she 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.240 was asking for information to be on mass on us, 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:49.600 the US person, to be on maths that were affiliated 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:51.160 with the Trump transition that did not have to do 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.280 with Russia. At the same time, this is the environment, 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.800 the backdrop, and it was relevant in that sense of 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:01.000 a national in the in the national security sense, particularly 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:02.640 if we were to believe other reports in the New 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.280 York Times and other places that there was a lot 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.960 of intelligence coming in after the election that did show 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.520 that there were more contacts and meetings and so forth 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.440 between Trump World and Russia. On the other hand, none 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:20.160 of that has amounted to the impeachable offense of collusion. Uh. 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:22.840 This has been stated by people like James Clapper, who 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:27.560 was Barack Obama's Director of National Intelligence. And it appears 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.040 that what we're learning now is that the standard for 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:35.160 a national security advisor to ask who a U S 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:37.920 person is who is incidentally collected there's no warrant on 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.800 this person, UH in in a in a routine kind 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.280 of wire tap of a foreign target or criminal target 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:50.160 is so loose that it pretty much you could you 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.440 could you can pretty much look to see anything and 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.920 you would get your request. It appears fulfilled, which is 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.800 what happened in this National Security Council review that started 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.359 under the Trump administration of this policy known as unmaking. 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:07.040 And that right there is something that ought to wary 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:11.000 Democrats as well as Republicans, because right now the president 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.840 of Democrat as a president is Sonald Trump. He's a Republican. 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:18.440 And if indeed, you know, the rules are so laxed 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:22.480 that you can uh have a back door loophole to 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.520 go around the very strict procedures for surveilling US persons 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.200 by going to a stupid sport known as the FISA court, well, 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:31.000 then this is something that Trump could then do to 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.680 his domestic opposition. And Democrats should be interested in geting 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.199 the bombo. And I'm actually happy to say that at 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.160 least the ranking Democrats in the Senate and House Intelligence 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.240 committees are now saying that this is something worth looking 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.840 at you. This is great, Uh, the surveillance and friends, 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.040 I guess that's what we'll call it, David, Right, we 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.879 need a new couch Eli Here's what I'm struggling with. 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.080 You've got the credible information, you've got the FBI investigation, 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.560 you've got the independent reporting by a number of journalism organizations. 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:01.720 Would there be those who say, look, this is a 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.040 national security advisor looking into something that would have been 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:05.719 of great concern. You could have outlined this in your 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:09.560 piece as well. There's nothing here to indicate you're kind 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:11.240 of alluding to this moment to go that that Susan 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.280 Rice did anything wrong. We're illegal? Am I right in 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:18.320 reading that correctly? Well? Illegal? I think it's I think 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:20.639 when I've talked to experts about this, you know the 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:24.480 law and the procedures, I think it's it's it's legal 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.440 for a natural security advisor to make these unmapped requests, 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:31.120 and the bar is very low. Improper is a different questions. 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.840 And because this is a key point here, I think 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:39.000 people are missing. This is stuff that is so shrouded 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:42.680 in state secrecy. We rarely really get much of an 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:47.000 insight into how this process works. Every few years, when 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.639 the FIE the law is reauthorized in Congress, there are 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.760 hearings and the leaders of the intelligence community make a 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.920 show of saying that there are great that the intelligence 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:00.200 community takes great pains to redact the names of s 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:04.840 persons who were incidentally collected in eavesdropping and monitoring in 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:08.080 that kind of thing. But if it turns out that 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:12.240 a political appointee can pretty much request to unmask that 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:16.439 information at any time, well then it's worth finding you know, 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.920 the origins of this policy, how long this has been 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.959 going on, and hopefully a sense to reform it, So 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.679 I would separate the questions of illegal and improper. And 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.240 if it did turn out that in fact, Susan Rice 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.640 was doing more than just asking for the end the information, 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.320 but was spreading that around to Democrats for any kind 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.000 of political advantage, or that she had something to do, 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:40.399 and I'm not reporting this, I want to make this 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.200 very clear. She had something to do with leaking um, 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:45.359 the identity of Mike Flynn, who did end up in 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:48.320 the newspaper in his phone calls with the Russian ambassador, 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:50.399 and that forced him to resign. That did have a 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:54.040 huge political effect. Um, then that reason, she really isn't 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.520 a bit of trouble here. So I want to make 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.359 it very clear that the thing that I'm reporting on 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:01.840 right now is in and of itself it doesn't appear 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.320 to be illegal, but it may very well be improper. 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.520 And I'm starting to think that the real scandal here 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:08.840 is the fact that it's not illegal, that it may 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.760 be standard operating procedure. And how long has this been 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.000 going on? Is the question? Can you introduce us here 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.080 to a principle you mentioned in the piece. That's Ezra 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:17.879 co and Wattnick the name that I don't think we'll 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.359 be familiar to many of our of our listeners, but 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.000 is is or was wielding a pretty heavy hand on 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:25.800 the National Security Council as an advisor to to the president. 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:28.080 Who is he? What do we know about his background 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.439 and why was he the one conducting this investigation? Well, 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:33.600 he's a Defense intelligence I mean he's a he's a 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:38.040 former Defense Intelligence Agency officer. UM. He was brought in 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.960 originally by Mike flann and I have to say that, 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.159 you know, what he was doing was well within his 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:47.320 remit as the UM National Security Council's Director for Intelligence, 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.440 which is to review policies like this, which is when 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.760 the White House, you know, what is the procedure for 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:56.720 unmasking US persons in these reports? And that's when he 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:01.840 discovered the what the kinds of phenomenal anomalies and then 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:04.920 and made this available to the General Council. Um, he's 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:07.480 somebody who has gotten recently, you know, there's been some 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:10.320 interest to him among you know, sort of the progressive 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:14.800 and liberal media. Um. Although I have to say at 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:17.639 this point, Um, the argument that you know, what he 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:19.560 was doing is improper, I have not seen it. I'm 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:22.320 you know, we're all reporting his story out. But you know, 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:25.760 eventually he hands the information over, the General Council says, 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.080 all right, we want you to stop the investigation. At 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:31.080 this point he complied with that as I've I can, 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:34.280 I can report and you know, and kind of continued on. 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.680 But the idea that it was improper to review this 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:41.560 stuff for a policy like this, I mean, that's exactly 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.520 what the Director for Intelligence or what I think it's called, 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:48.199 the classified Executive Secretariat, it is supposed to do. As 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:50.720 an asshole security Council. It's not it's not really out 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:52.840 of the ordinary. And you know, and for that job 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:55.600 he was qualified. What happens here next day lie with 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.080 with the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committe, Devin Nonez. 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:01.879 We've seen what you sort of characterizes as bizarre behavior 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:03.760 him going back and forth to the White House. Obviously 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:06.280 this could be all tied up into that, but he's 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:09.240 lost the confidence of some of his colleagues on the hill. 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:11.359 What are the next steps do you think for the 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:13.720 for the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. Well, I 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.640 wrote a very tough column last week because I thought that, 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:18.960 you know, the story that he had told the press, 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:21.960 and specifically in an interview with me, it was very 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:23.800 misleading because he made it appear that he was in 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:27.439 forming President Trump of new information when you know, his 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.520 own White House had been uh you know, knew about 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:32.600 it and discovered it and so forth. That said, I 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.840 also understand that the Chairman had his own independent sources 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.360 before all of this, that we're telling him that there 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.840 was you know, improper in mass unmasking going on, and 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:45.040