Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg ihod podcast, And
Speaker 1: I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing Editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News.
Speaker 1: It's Tuesday for one. I'm Weldonna Hyrick in today for
Speaker 1: Stacy Marie Ishmael. Bitcoin evangelist Roger Ver has said in
Speaker 1: at least one interview that when he was a little boy,
Speaker 1: he wanted to be a garbage truck driver. That way
Speaker 1: he could drive a heavy machinery around his neighborhood and
Speaker 1: get to talk to everyone. Fast forward to the recent past,
Speaker 1: and Roger Ver actually does talk to a lot of folks,
Speaker 1: just though while collecting their trash. He's instead been promoting
Speaker 1: bitcoin as the future of money and finance, so much
Speaker 1: so that people started calling him Bitcoin Jesus. According to
Speaker 1: his website, he's one of the early investors in several
Speaker 1: bitcoin projects, including Cracking, Blockchain, dot Com, and Ripple, but
Speaker 1: in verse, which his enthusiasm away from Bitcoin and more
Speaker 1: towards something called bitcoin cash, which is an offshoot of
Speaker 1: the original cryptocurrency. Recently, Vera became entangled with crypto company Genesis.
Speaker 1: So what happens when Bitcoin Jesus speaks. Do people say
Speaker 1: hallelujah or do they say deliver us from evil? Here
Speaker 1: to help me explore the life and work of Bitcoin
Speaker 1: Jesus is Bloomberg reporter Olga Karif. Olga, You've actually had
Speaker 1: a lot of access to Roger. You've interviewed him many times,
Speaker 1: You've known him over the years, You've talked to quite
Speaker 1: a bit. So just lay out the scene for us.
Speaker 1: What is he like? What should we know about his personality?
Speaker 1: And about this person he's known as bitcoin Jesus because
Speaker 1: he actually found out about bitcoin way before most people
Speaker 1: even heard the word. He started buying bitcoin in Tleven
Speaker 1: when it traded for less than one dollar, and of
Speaker 1: course now it's trading over for over twenty one dollars um.
Speaker 1: And when he found out about bitcoin, he started telling
Speaker 1: everybody about it. So there are stories so Fragier were
Speaker 1: essentially carry know about bitcoin at barbecues and house parties
Speaker 1: and pretty much he was talking about it everywhere he
Speaker 1: could get a chance to, and so he became known
Speaker 1: worldwide as Bitcoin Jesus. Maybe tell us a bit about
Speaker 1: his escapades within the space, because I'm curious about how
Speaker 1: he's been able to sustain this very interesting persona for
Speaker 1: the last decade or more. He is sort of very intense.
Speaker 1: He has very strong opinions about things. And one of
Speaker 1: the things he's best known for is the creation of
Speaker 1: bitcoin cash. So back in the word, debates and oin
Speaker 1: developers about how to scale bitcoin, and there were different
Speaker 1: ideas about how to scale the network, and Roger was
Speaker 1: a big believer that the main stream view of how
Speaker 1: to scale the network was wrong and didn't adhere to
Speaker 1: the vision that's the Toshiakamoto, the anonamous creator of bitcoin,
Speaker 1: had in mind, because the Toshi wanted bitcoin to be
Speaker 1: a transactional currency, and Roger felt like if this mainstream
Speaker 1: idea of what bitcoin should become was implemented, and it
Speaker 1: would become more of a store of value, which is
Speaker 1: what bitcoin is today. And so he was part of
Speaker 1: a contingent that supported split off a version of bitcoin
Speaker 1: network called bitcoin cash, and of course bitcoin cash is
Speaker 1: still around, although it's a much smaller network than Bitcoin.
Speaker 1: I mean, Bitcoin has a market cap currently of I
Speaker 1: think something like four hundred fifty billion and bitcoin cash
Speaker 1: is two and a half billion. But you know, it's
Speaker 1: a sizeable and an important cryptocurrency out there that he supports.
Speaker 1: So basically he has in the past laid out some
Speaker 1: views that maybe we're counter to what people at the
Speaker 1: time we're thinking, or maybe he was sort of being
Speaker 1: provocative in in some sense. But I'm wondering what what
Speaker 1: the sense is from you of how the crypto community
Speaker 1: views him, largely speaking, because obviously the name Bitcoin Jesus
Speaker 1: or the nickname Bitcoin Jesus sort of has this connotation,
Speaker 1: this larger than life kind of tation to it. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: it certainly does. So years ago, he was probably an
Speaker 1: example of sort of the mainstream bitcoin adopter who was
Speaker 1: somebody who was libertarian, opposed to government interference, somebody who
Speaker 1: essentially viewed cryptocurrency as a way to avoid government interference
Speaker 1: and regulation, you know, cryptocurrency as a lot of the
Speaker 1: early adopters, so it was a way to essentially move
Speaker 1: value around without government knowledge or regulation, which as we
Speaker 1: more recently, I think our scene is not quite how
Speaker 1: it's it's working out. But um more recently I think
Speaker 1: his views have been viewed as more fringe as more
Speaker 1: institutions and retail investors had waited into the space. But
Speaker 1: he's obviously still a very well known figure in the
Speaker 1: crypto space. I like your use of the word fringe
Speaker 1: and just to explain how maybe the space has evolved
Speaker 1: since those early early years. But tell us maybe a
Speaker 1: bit more of how characteristic or how exemplary his libertarian
Speaker 1: or anti government views are maybe of of other participants
Speaker 1: who had gotten in a really really long time ago,
Speaker 1: or even how prevalent views like that might still be
Speaker 1: in the space today. Or is is it really the
Speaker 1: case that this type of thinking has just sort of
Speaker 1: been sidelined within the crypto space over the years. Roger's views,
Speaker 1: I think partially stemmed from the fact that when he
Speaker 1: was in his early turnies, he was convicted of illegally
Speaker 1: selling fireworks on eBay and he was actually put in
Speaker 1: jail and has a very dark view of US government.
Speaker 1: He actually after that he moved to Japan and and
Speaker 1: then to send this send kids. But a lot of
Speaker 1: early bitcoin adopters were people who essentially felt that crypto
Speaker 1: was a way to financial freedom and allowed people to
Speaker 1: not depend on governments that might devalue your feat or
Speaker 1: do something something that could have ramifications for your savings
Speaker 1: or for your way of life. And how this industry
Speaker 1: evolved was, you know, in the last three years maybe
Speaker 1: or so, more institutions actually from Wall Street started paying
Speaker 1: attention to crypto and stepping in and offering services or investing.
Speaker 1: We've seen a few sort of public companies invest in bitcoin,
Speaker 1: and we've seen millions of retail investors step into crypto,
Speaker 1: and the space, like you said, has changed quite a
Speaker 1: bit from being sort of this very niche space with
Speaker 1: mostly you know, very geeky computer programmersh loving coins too.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say completely mainstream, but close to mainstream market.
Speaker 1: Of course, this whole space had been in a bear
Speaker 1: market for the last year or so, and that definitely
Speaker 1: has pushed back adoption and raised questions about what it's
Speaker 1: going to look like once regulators are done shaping it.
Speaker 1: But I think we are very very far removed from
Speaker 1: this niche libertarian space that it used to be. Okay,
Speaker 1: and then just one more thing about the way he
Speaker 1: is thinking about the world. Can you tell us about
Speaker 1: his views on the blockchain. He strongly believes that essentially
Speaker 1: crypto should be used uh in transactions to buy a sandwich,
Speaker 1: or to even to buy a car, and so he's
Speaker 1: been promoting bitcoin cash for use in transactions, and he
Speaker 1: is very much unhappy with the way bitcoin has developed.
Speaker 1: He is no longer promoting bitcoin itself. Interesting enough, um,
Speaker 1: you know, because bitcoin has emerged as more of a
Speaker 1: store of value and he believes this is not what
Speaker 1: crypt or should be about. He of course has a
Speaker 1: lot of opponents in the in that view, but that's
Speaker 1: what he believes. Up next, more with Boomberg reporter all
Speaker 1: the caif on Roger Verse dealings with coin Flex and Genesis.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back, all got We know that ver
Speaker 1: has been entangled with Genesis, which also has been in
Speaker 1: the news quite a bit recently as we know now
Speaker 1: remember the Winkle Boss brothers have been waging a public
Speaker 1: fight against Genesis, even calling for Barry Silber, the founder
Speaker 1: of the digital currency group I hired, to step down
Speaker 1: as as CEO. But they claim that he owes them
Speaker 1: millions of dollars for some trades that he had with them.
Speaker 1: So can you tell us about what's going on between
Speaker 1: the two of them in this feud that they're having publicly? Sure? So,
Speaker 1: Genesis has a landing arm and a trading arm, and
Speaker 1: the landing arm recently went bankrupt, but the trading arm
Speaker 1: of the company is still around and functioning, and Genesis
Speaker 1: Trading recently filed a lawsuit against Roger for saying that
Speaker 1: he hasn't settled about twenty million dollars worth of options
Speaker 1: on the platform. When I talked to Roger about this,
Speaker 1: he said, you know, my contract with Genesis Trading basically
Speaker 1: stipulates that they have to be solvent for me to
Speaker 1: settle any transactions. And when I asked them for financial statements,
Speaker 1: they declined to provide them. So that's what he says. Uh,
Speaker 1: And I guess we'll see how it all plays out.
Speaker 1: But it's interesting that this lawsuit comes on the heels
Speaker 1: of another sort of payment issue that Roger has had
Speaker 1: in the last year. Coin Flex, which is an exchange,
Speaker 1: alleged that Roger failed to pay a margin call, and
Speaker 1: this litigation with him is still ongoing. Now. Coming back
Speaker 1: to Genesis, Roger said on on social media that he
Speaker 1: has enough money to pay back. He just believes that
Speaker 1: Genesis Trading is in violation of their contract with him.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering how Roger actually responded to coin Flex's accusations.
Speaker 1: He says he actually doesn't owe them any money, So
Speaker 1: I guess we'll see how it all plays out. At
Speaker 1: this point, it's sort of not clear what the actual
Speaker 1: situation is and who's telling the truth. Oh God, tell
Speaker 1: us what you think verse influence is in the crypto
Speaker 1: space going forward? And what is it about these big
Speaker 1: names that tend to dominate the crypt industry in the
Speaker 1: crypto space in general, and why we all follow them
Speaker 1: so closely. The big names, the early investors in this industry,
Speaker 1: they're they're still very influential because they have their fingers
Speaker 1: and a lot of different pies. Like Roger for instance,
Speaker 1: he was an early investor in Ripple and bid pain
Speaker 1: and blockchain, dot com and cracking, so he runs his
Speaker 1: own crypto exchange. So he is very influential and listened
Speaker 1: being listened to by a lot of people because he
Speaker 1: is very involved in this industry still, as are a
Speaker 1: lot of the early adopters, early investors. And I think
Speaker 1: he also has the perspective on this industry that some
Speaker 1: of the more recent investors perhaps don't have. He has
Speaker 1: seen a lot of this market up and and downs,
Speaker 1: and he sort of knows how genially, uh, the scrypto
Speaker 1: cycles play out, and at least I, you know, I
Speaker 1: find it very interesting and helpful to follow what he's doing. Alga,
Speaker 1: I love I'm missing with you about the old crypto days,
Speaker 1: if we can call them that. So maybe five or
Speaker 1: six years ago, I remember, at least at Bloomberg it
Speaker 1: was mainly me and you covering cryptocurrencies and covering some
Speaker 1: of these big names in the space that remain big
Speaker 1: names in the space to this day. So thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining us on the podcast today. Oh
Speaker 1: it was so much fun. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: all Donna. That was Bloomberg reporter Olga Karif you can
Speaker 1: find more of a reporting on the Bloomberg terminal and
Speaker 1: on Bloomberg dot com. For more, be sure to check
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Speaker 1: At is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidron. I'm
Speaker 1: Stacy Marie Schml. We'll be back tomorrow.