1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg ihod podcast, And 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing Editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News. 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: It's Tuesday for one. I'm Weldonna Hyrick in today for 4 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: Stacy Marie Ishmael. Bitcoin evangelist Roger Ver has said in 5 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: at least one interview that when he was a little boy, 6 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: he wanted to be a garbage truck driver. That way 7 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: he could drive a heavy machinery around his neighborhood and 8 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 1: get to talk to everyone. Fast forward to the recent past, 9 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: and Roger Ver actually does talk to a lot of folks, 10 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: just though while collecting their trash. He's instead been promoting 11 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: bitcoin as the future of money and finance, so much 12 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: so that people started calling him Bitcoin Jesus. According to 13 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: his website, he's one of the early investors in several 14 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: bitcoin projects, including Cracking, Blockchain, dot Com, and Ripple, but 15 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: in verse, which his enthusiasm away from Bitcoin and more 16 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: towards something called bitcoin cash, which is an offshoot of 17 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: the original cryptocurrency. Recently, Vera became entangled with crypto company Genesis. 18 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: So what happens when Bitcoin Jesus speaks. Do people say 19 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: hallelujah or do they say deliver us from evil? Here 20 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: to help me explore the life and work of Bitcoin 21 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: Jesus is Bloomberg reporter Olga Karif. Olga, You've actually had 22 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: a lot of access to Roger. You've interviewed him many times, 23 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: You've known him over the years, You've talked to quite 24 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: a bit. So just lay out the scene for us. 25 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: What is he like? What should we know about his personality? 26 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: And about this person he's known as bitcoin Jesus because 27 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: he actually found out about bitcoin way before most people 28 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: even heard the word. He started buying bitcoin in Tleven 29 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: when it traded for less than one dollar, and of 30 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: course now it's trading over for over twenty one dollars um. 31 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: And when he found out about bitcoin, he started telling 32 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,119 Speaker 1: everybody about it. So there are stories so Fragier were 33 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: essentially carry know about bitcoin at barbecues and house parties 34 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: and pretty much he was talking about it everywhere he 35 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: could get a chance to, and so he became known 36 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: worldwide as Bitcoin Jesus. Maybe tell us a bit about 37 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: his escapades within the space, because I'm curious about how 38 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: he's been able to sustain this very interesting persona for 39 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: the last decade or more. He is sort of very intense. 40 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: He has very strong opinions about things. And one of 41 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: the things he's best known for is the creation of 42 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 1: bitcoin cash. So back in the word, debates and oin 43 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: developers about how to scale bitcoin, and there were different 44 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: ideas about how to scale the network, and Roger was 45 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: a big believer that the main stream view of how 46 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: to scale the network was wrong and didn't adhere to 47 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: the vision that's the Toshiakamoto, the anonamous creator of bitcoin, 48 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: had in mind, because the Toshi wanted bitcoin to be 49 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: a transactional currency, and Roger felt like if this mainstream 50 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: idea of what bitcoin should become was implemented, and it 51 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: would become more of a store of value, which is 52 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: what bitcoin is today. And so he was part of 53 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: a contingent that supported split off a version of bitcoin 54 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: network called bitcoin cash, and of course bitcoin cash is 55 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: still around, although it's a much smaller network than Bitcoin. 56 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: I mean, Bitcoin has a market cap currently of I 57 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: think something like four hundred fifty billion and bitcoin cash 58 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: is two and a half billion. But you know, it's 59 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: a sizeable and an important cryptocurrency out there that he supports. 60 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: So basically he has in the past laid out some 61 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: views that maybe we're counter to what people at the 62 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: time we're thinking, or maybe he was sort of being 63 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: provocative in in some sense. But I'm wondering what what 64 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: the sense is from you of how the crypto community 65 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: views him, largely speaking, because obviously the name Bitcoin Jesus 66 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: or the nickname Bitcoin Jesus sort of has this connotation, 67 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: this larger than life kind of tation to it. Absolutely, 68 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: it certainly does. So years ago, he was probably an 69 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: example of sort of the mainstream bitcoin adopter who was 70 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: somebody who was libertarian, opposed to government interference, somebody who 71 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: essentially viewed cryptocurrency as a way to avoid government interference 72 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: and regulation, you know, cryptocurrency as a lot of the 73 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: early adopters, so it was a way to essentially move 74 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: value around without government knowledge or regulation, which as we 75 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: more recently, I think our scene is not quite how 76 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: it's it's working out. But um more recently I think 77 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: his views have been viewed as more fringe as more 78 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: institutions and retail investors had waited into the space. But 79 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: he's obviously still a very well known figure in the 80 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: crypto space. I like your use of the word fringe 81 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 1: and just to explain how maybe the space has evolved 82 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: since those early early years. But tell us maybe a 83 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: bit more of how characteristic or how exemplary his libertarian 84 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: or anti government views are maybe of of other participants 85 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: who had gotten in a really really long time ago, 86 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: or even how prevalent views like that might still be 87 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: in the space today. Or is is it really the 88 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: case that this type of thinking has just sort of 89 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: been sidelined within the crypto space over the years. Roger's views, 90 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: I think partially stemmed from the fact that when he 91 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: was in his early turnies, he was convicted of illegally 92 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: selling fireworks on eBay and he was actually put in 93 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: jail and has a very dark view of US government. 94 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 1: He actually after that he moved to Japan and and 95 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: then to send this send kids. But a lot of 96 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: early bitcoin adopters were people who essentially felt that crypto 97 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: was a way to financial freedom and allowed people to 98 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: not depend on governments that might devalue your feat or 99 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: do something something that could have ramifications for your savings 100 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: or for your way of life. And how this industry 101 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: evolved was, you know, in the last three years maybe 102 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: or so, more institutions actually from Wall Street started paying 103 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: attention to crypto and stepping in and offering services or investing. 104 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: We've seen a few sort of public companies invest in bitcoin, 105 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: and we've seen millions of retail investors step into crypto, 106 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: and the space, like you said, has changed quite a 107 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: bit from being sort of this very niche space with 108 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: mostly you know, very geeky computer programmersh loving coins too. 109 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say completely mainstream, but close to mainstream market. 110 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: Of course, this whole space had been in a bear 111 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: market for the last year or so, and that definitely 112 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: has pushed back adoption and raised questions about what it's 113 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: going to look like once regulators are done shaping it. 114 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: But I think we are very very far removed from 115 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: this niche libertarian space that it used to be. Okay, 116 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: and then just one more thing about the way he 117 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: is thinking about the world. Can you tell us about 118 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: his views on the blockchain. He strongly believes that essentially 119 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: crypto should be used uh in transactions to buy a sandwich, 120 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: or to even to buy a car, and so he's 121 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: been promoting bitcoin cash for use in transactions, and he 122 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: is very much unhappy with the way bitcoin has developed. 123 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: He is no longer promoting bitcoin itself. Interesting enough, um, 124 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, because bitcoin has emerged as more of a 125 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: store of value and he believes this is not what 126 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: crypt or should be about. He of course has a 127 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: lot of opponents in the in that view, but that's 128 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: what he believes. Up next, more with Boomberg reporter all 129 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: the caif on Roger Verse dealings with coin Flex and Genesis. 130 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: We'll be right back, all got We know that ver 131 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: has been entangled with Genesis, which also has been in 132 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: the news quite a bit recently as we know now 133 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: remember the Winkle Boss brothers have been waging a public 134 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: fight against Genesis, even calling for Barry Silber, the founder 135 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: of the digital currency group I hired, to step down 136 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: as as CEO. But they claim that he owes them 137 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: millions of dollars for some trades that he had with them. 138 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: So can you tell us about what's going on between 139 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: the two of them in this feud that they're having publicly? Sure? So, 140 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 1: Genesis has a landing arm and a trading arm, and 141 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: the landing arm recently went bankrupt, but the trading arm 142 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: of the company is still around and functioning, and Genesis 143 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: Trading recently filed a lawsuit against Roger for saying that 144 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: he hasn't settled about twenty million dollars worth of options 145 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: on the platform. When I talked to Roger about this, 146 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: he said, you know, my contract with Genesis Trading basically 147 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: stipulates that they have to be solvent for me to 148 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:54,599 Speaker 1: settle any transactions. And when I asked them for financial statements, 149 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: they declined to provide them. So that's what he says. Uh, 150 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: And I guess we'll see how it all plays out. 151 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: But it's interesting that this lawsuit comes on the heels 152 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: of another sort of payment issue that Roger has had 153 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: in the last year. Coin Flex, which is an exchange, 154 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: alleged that Roger failed to pay a margin call, and 155 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: this litigation with him is still ongoing. Now. Coming back 156 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: to Genesis, Roger said on on social media that he 157 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: has enough money to pay back. He just believes that 158 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: Genesis Trading is in violation of their contract with him. 159 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: I'm wondering how Roger actually responded to coin Flex's accusations. 160 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: He says he actually doesn't owe them any money, So 161 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: I guess we'll see how it all plays out. At 162 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: this point, it's sort of not clear what the actual 163 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: situation is and who's telling the truth. Oh God, tell 164 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: us what you think verse influence is in the crypto 165 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: space going forward? And what is it about these big 166 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 1: names that tend to dominate the crypt industry in the 167 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: crypto space in general, and why we all follow them 168 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: so closely. The big names, the early investors in this industry, 169 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: they're they're still very influential because they have their fingers 170 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: and a lot of different pies. Like Roger for instance, 171 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: he was an early investor in Ripple and bid pain 172 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: and blockchain, dot com and cracking, so he runs his 173 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: own crypto exchange. So he is very influential and listened 174 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: being listened to by a lot of people because he 175 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: is very involved in this industry still, as are a 176 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: lot of the early adopters, early investors. And I think 177 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: he also has the perspective on this industry that some 178 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: of the more recent investors perhaps don't have. He has 179 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: seen a lot of this market up and and downs, 180 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: and he sort of knows how genially, uh, the scrypto 181 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: cycles play out, and at least I, you know, I 182 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: find it very interesting and helpful to follow what he's doing. Alga, 183 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: I love I'm missing with you about the old crypto days, 184 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: if we can call them that. So maybe five or 185 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: six years ago, I remember, at least at Bloomberg it 186 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: was mainly me and you covering cryptocurrencies and covering some 187 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: of these big names in the space that remain big 188 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: names in the space to this day. So thank you 189 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: so much for joining us on the podcast today. Oh 190 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: it was so much fun. Thank you so much for 191 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: all Donna. That was Bloomberg reporter Olga Karif you can 192 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: find more of a reporting on the Bloomberg terminal and 193 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg dot com. For more, be sure to check 194 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: out our twice weekly newsletter, Bloomberg Crypto. This is Bloomberg Crypto, 195 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heeart Radio. For 196 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: more shows from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 197 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 198 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: Send us your comments, questions, or suggestions for the show 199 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of 200 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Vergelina. Our senior producer is Janet Babin. 201 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: Our producers are Mohammed Farup and Sharon Barriro. Our associate 202 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: producers are Ty Butler and Moses on Them. Desta wonder 203 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: At is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidron. I'm 204 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: Stacy Marie Schml. We'll be back tomorrow.