WEBVTT - Hell and Gone Murder Line: KK's Corner Part 4 0:00:46.480 --> 0:00:47.841 School of Humans. 0:00:49.241 --> 0:00:53.000 Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold case murders in 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.200 an effort to raise public awareness invite witnesses to come 0:00:56.241 --> 0:01:00.121 forward and present evidence that could potentially be further investigated 0:01:00.121 --> 0:01:03.761 by law enforcement. While we value insights from family and 0:01:03.801 --> 0:01:07.720 community members, their statements should not be considered evidence and 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:11.520 point to the challenges of verifying facts inherent in cold cases. 0:01:12.321 --> 0:01:15.800 We remind listeners that everyone has presumed innocent until proven 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.080 guilty in a court of law. Nothing in the podcast 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.080 is intended to state or imply that anyone who has 0:01:22.161 --> 0:01:25.601 not been convicted of a crime is guilty of any wrongdoing. 0:01:26.241 --> 0:01:27.121 Thanks for listening. 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.881 After Kevin Abel died and his death was ruled a suicide, 0:01:33.401 --> 0:01:38.201 Stacy Reeves was scared. Kevin's friend Jordan, said that Stacy 0:01:38.401 --> 0:01:42.401 told her that Kevin was in serious trouble, that he 0:01:42.481 --> 0:01:45.681 owed a lot of drug money to people, and that 0:01:45.761 --> 0:01:48.361 she was planning on talking to police officers about what 0:01:48.481 --> 0:01:51.841 she knew. One of the officers she spoke with was 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:56.961 Jerome the Straps. She also told us she wasn't convinced 0:01:57.081 --> 0:01:58.841 that Kevin's death was a suicide. 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:02.481 Think of the funniest person you know and that was Kevin, 0:02:03.041 --> 0:02:06.641 always smile and laugh and taking joking, that kind of person. 0:02:06.721 --> 0:02:10.081 Then all of a sudden they killed himself, which happened. 0:02:10.761 --> 0:02:12.841 The reason I don't think it happened to Kevin wasn't 0:02:12.881 --> 0:02:16.801 just because of personality. I believe because of what Stacey 0:02:16.881 --> 0:02:21.681 told me. She said that Kevin had gotten some trouble 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:23.680 behind drug money, owed someone drug lay. 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.120 This immediately sent alarm bells off for Jordans, since she 0:02:28.201 --> 0:02:32.320 knew about Jerome, and Jordan said that she didn't trust him. 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:37.240 Now there's no evidence that Jerome was straps did anything wrong, 0:02:37.641 --> 0:02:40.441 but police did later call him in for questioning about 0:02:40.481 --> 0:02:42.481 kk's corners, asking. 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:43.881 What he knew and when he knew. 0:02:44.641 --> 0:02:49.281 We're trying to understand these relationships because in Calcushy Perish 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:50.561 they run deep. 0:02:51.561 --> 0:02:54.481 She says, hey, do you know what Jerome was strapped? 0:02:55.201 --> 0:02:57.321 And I looked at her and I said, yes, I do. 0:02:57.561 --> 0:03:00.641 Why And she said because I've been talking to him 0:03:00.641 --> 0:03:04.641 about Kevin's case. And I said, Stacy, you don't need 0:03:04.681 --> 0:03:07.321 to do that. He's dirty. She said, well, I know 0:03:07.361 --> 0:03:09.961 who killed him, and I said who and she said, 0:03:10.041 --> 0:03:13.401 Richard McKelvin had him killed. And I grabbed my head, 0:03:13.481 --> 0:03:16.681 and I said, did you tell Jerome with strapsus? Jerome 0:03:16.761 --> 0:03:20.121 with Straps is a narcotics officer, so anyway, I told 0:03:20.121 --> 0:03:22.400 her my exact words, Tours, you need to go buy 0:03:22.401 --> 0:03:24.041 a gun and you need to keep it on you 0:03:24.081 --> 0:03:27.361 at all times because this isn't going to end good. 0:03:27.721 --> 0:03:30.441 I said, Call Jerome. Tell him that you were just 0:03:30.521 --> 0:03:32.801 listening to what other people were saying and you were 0:03:32.841 --> 0:03:36.321 believing it because you were grieving. And just tell him 0:03:36.321 --> 0:03:38.121 that you know you didn't know any of it to 0:03:38.161 --> 0:03:41.241 be true. I said, Stacey, please promise me. And that 0:03:41.401 --> 0:03:43.681 was it. That was the last words I said. 0:03:45.321 --> 0:03:46.401 I'm Catherine Townsend. 0:03:46.761 --> 0:03:49.721 Over the past five years of making my true crime podcast, 0:03:49.761 --> 0:03:52.561 Helen Gone, I've learned that there is no such thing 0:03:52.761 --> 0:03:56.041 as a small town where murder never happens. I have 0:03:56.121 --> 0:03:59.481 received hundreds of messages from people all around the country 0:03:59.521 --> 0:04:02.081 asking for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them, 0:04:02.401 --> 0:04:03.761 their families. 0:04:03.321 --> 0:04:04.281 And their communities. 0:04:05.001 --> 0:04:06.841 If you have a case you'd like me and my 0:04:06.881 --> 0:04:09.161 team to look into, you can reach out to us 0:04:09.241 --> 0:04:11.801 at our Helen Gone Murder line at six seven eight 0:04:12.201 --> 0:04:15.521 seven four four, six one four or five. That's six seven, 0:04:15.561 --> 0:04:19.640 eight seven four four, six' one four or, five or 0:04:19.841 --> 0:04:22.721 you can send us a message On instagram At Helen. 0:04:22.721 --> 0:05:07.721 Gonpott this Is Helen Gone Murder. Line we've been covering 0:05:07.761 --> 0:05:11.320 The Kk's corner case for weeks And i've read every 0:05:11.361 --> 0:05:14.601 single article out there about the, case including a lot 0:05:14.641 --> 0:05:18.761 from the local, newspaper The American. Press i've seen THE id, 0:05:18.921 --> 0:05:22.921 special And i've Seen America's Most. Wanted in my, opinion 0:05:23.361 --> 0:05:26.721 there's a lot left out of these reports because after 0:05:26.761 --> 0:05:29.761 the initial rumors About Richard, mcalvin who was cleared by, 0:05:29.841 --> 0:05:33.521 police pretty much the only suspect ever mentioned in news 0:05:33.561 --> 0:05:37.201 reports is twenty nine year Old Tomas. Cisco we're finding 0:05:37.201 --> 0:05:39.601 out that even though it was late at night and 0:05:39.681 --> 0:05:43.481 the store was, closing there were more people coming Through 0:05:43.761 --> 0:05:46.601 Kyk's corner in the early morning hours Of july, sixth 0:05:46.721 --> 0:05:51.001 nineteen ninety seven than originally. Thought both before and after 0:05:51.401 --> 0:05:54.400 twenty one year Old Marty, lebuff twenty six year Old Stacy, 0:05:54.401 --> 0:05:54.961 reeves and. 0:05:55.001 --> 0:05:57.440 Fourteen year Old Nicole guildry were brutally. 0:05:57.521 --> 0:06:03.561 Murdered police had no clear suspects until after the episode 0:06:03.601 --> 0:06:07.320 Of America's Most wanted, aired and they became laser focused 0:06:07.321 --> 0:06:11.520 On Thomas. Cisco from what we, know they never found 0:06:11.601 --> 0:06:15.161 the other, man the one in the composite. Drawings Tomas 0:06:15.161 --> 0:06:18.841 cisco was convicted of all three, murders but following an, 0:06:18.841 --> 0:06:22.601 appeal which he, won he got a new. Trial after a, 0:06:22.681 --> 0:06:26.041 deal he pleaded guilty to three counts of manslaughter and 0:06:26.161 --> 0:06:28.961 was sentenced to ninety years in. Prison he's up for 0:06:29.041 --> 0:06:33.121 parole this. Year because the second killer was never, caught 0:06:33.721 --> 0:06:37.161 most of the case file is still. Unavailable we did 0:06:37.241 --> 0:06:40.441 get some responses to our foyer. Requests we don't have 0:06:40.521 --> 0:06:43.640 the entire court transcripts because we were told that the 0:06:43.841 --> 0:06:47.561 would cost around thirteen hundred, dollars but we do have 0:06:47.601 --> 0:06:51.241 a few, elements including the closing arguments from both sides 0:06:51.921 --> 0:06:55.321 and through civil depositions that were given to us by family. 0:06:55.321 --> 0:06:58.921 Members we've been trying to piece together the police. Investigation 0:07:00.121 --> 0:07:03.721 it turns out there were several suspects who were questioned by. 0:07:03.721 --> 0:07:07.001 Police what happened to them and could one of them 0:07:07.041 --> 0:07:09.401 have been the second? Killer and what happened to the 0:07:09.441 --> 0:07:12.801 physical evidence the hares found on the bodies and the 0:07:12.841 --> 0:07:16.361 cigarette that was found in the. Cooler as we said last, 0:07:16.401 --> 0:07:18.721 week one of the things that it seemed like everyone 0:07:18.721 --> 0:07:22.161 agreed on was the fact That kk's corner seemed like 0:07:22.161 --> 0:07:25.840 an inside. Job there were a lot of other people 0:07:25.841 --> 0:07:28.481 who were interviewed by. Police one of the things that 0:07:28.561 --> 0:07:32.281 police did logically was asked the store's, Owner Kenny, klain 0:07:32.441 --> 0:07:36.201 about any disgruntled employees or anyone with a reason to 0:07:36.201 --> 0:07:39.561 be angry at him or the. Store one was a 0:07:39.561 --> 0:07:44.441 former employee Named Nathaniel. Gobert according to court, docu he 0:07:44.521 --> 0:07:46.561 was caught stealing money from the store a few weeks. 0:07:46.561 --> 0:07:50.641 Earlier he told police when they questioned, him he admitted 0:07:50.721 --> 0:07:52.801 to stealing three hundred and fifty eight dollars from the. 0:07:52.801 --> 0:07:55.801 Store buddy said That kenny had given him two weeks 0:07:55.841 --> 0:07:56.481 to pay the money. 0:07:56.481 --> 0:07:58.761 Back he, did And kenny dropped the. 0:07:58.841 --> 0:08:02.081 Charges nathaniel told police that he was banned from the 0:08:02.121 --> 0:08:04.801 store and had not been back in since his. Firing 0:08:05.801 --> 0:08:08.361 police Asked nathaniel where he was on the night of the. 0:08:08.401 --> 0:08:11.641 Killings he said that he was with friends eating pizza 0:08:11.761 --> 0:08:15.041 on the evening Of july. Fifth police apparently verified his 0:08:15.121 --> 0:08:19.841 alibi And nathaniel passed a polygraph. Test Huey, lyttleton the 0:08:19.881 --> 0:08:22.801 insurance investigator who had done his own investigations in The 0:08:22.841 --> 0:08:27.001 ellender murders also called people to interview them About Kk's 0:08:27.041 --> 0:08:32.601 corner And Hughey lyttleton presented evidence to police, later including 0:08:32.761 --> 0:08:35.920 a videotaped interview with a friend Of nathaniel's who claimed 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.121 That nathaniel had talked about committing the murders for money 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:42.361 and said that he didn't Like. Stacy according to court, 0:08:42.401 --> 0:08:47.360 documents the VC f did talk to these. Friends nathaniel 0:08:47.401 --> 0:08:50.481 had an, alibi and apparently police decided that was the 0:08:50.601 --> 0:08:50.801 end of. 0:08:50.841 --> 0:08:53.681 That it seemed to be another strange dead. 0:08:53.761 --> 0:08:58.081 End Evelyn ubray mentioned in her closing arguments that law 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.441 enforcement believed that the killer was someone with intimate knowledge 0:09:01.441 --> 0:09:04.881 of the store for several. Reasons one the fact that 0:09:04.881 --> 0:09:07.761 the killer had cut the phone. Lines, also the killer 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:11.161 appeared to Know stacey And marty and apparently knew what 0:09:11.241 --> 0:09:14.160 time the store. Closed they knew about the video. Surveillance 0:09:14.201 --> 0:09:16.681 they knew that the money would be in the. Safe, 0:09:16.721 --> 0:09:19.401 also they were able to rob the store right before 0:09:19.641 --> 0:09:23.401 the alarm company would be alerted at one. Am the 0:09:23.441 --> 0:09:27.121 window when the murder happened is actually pretty. Small according 0:09:27.201 --> 0:09:30.441 to information that came out in, Court THE fbi stated 0:09:30.441 --> 0:09:33.841 that kk's corner was one of the most heavily trafficked 0:09:33.881 --> 0:09:37.801 convenience stores in that. Region there were people coming and 0:09:37.921 --> 0:09:41.040 going from the store all. Night one of the store, 0:09:41.081 --> 0:09:44.561 Managers Sherwood, carpenter told police he called the store at 0:09:44.601 --> 0:09:47.561 about eleven thirty. Pm he said he was chatting To 0:09:47.601 --> 0:09:51.241 stacy from then until around eleven forty. Three that's When 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.361 stacy told him she needed to hang at the phone 0:09:53.361 --> 0:09:57.040 and finish mopping the. Floors, now during this, time witnesses 0:09:57.081 --> 0:09:58.081 did see people in the. 0:09:58.081 --> 0:09:59.841 Store marty was working at the. 0:09:59.841 --> 0:10:03.841 Counter then just a few minutes after, That Virginia johnson 0:10:03.881 --> 0:10:06.681 stopped by at around eleven forty FIVE pm to get. 0:10:06.681 --> 0:10:10.521 Gas Sherwood carpenter called again at twelve oh six, am 0:10:10.801 --> 0:10:13.601 but no one. Answered, now that was inside the, store 0:10:14.081 --> 0:10:16.881 but the parking lot outside the store also had its 0:10:16.881 --> 0:10:19.961 own group of, regulars even after the store closed at. 0:10:20.001 --> 0:10:29.160 Midnight remember That Virginia johnson and her boyfriend drove By 0:10:29.321 --> 0:10:33.441 kk's again at around twelve thirty. Am they saw the 0:10:33.521 --> 0:10:36.401 red truck with the passenger door open and the black 0:10:36.441 --> 0:10:39.201 car with the trunk open still parked at the same 0:10:39.241 --> 0:10:41.961 spot Where virginia had noticed them. Earlier by the side 0:10:42.081 --> 0:10:45.881 entrance of the. Store minutes after, that there was another 0:10:45.921 --> 0:10:48.161 guy who was a friend Of. Marty's he worked At 0:10:48.161 --> 0:10:51.680 Little Caesar's. Pizza he drove by at around twelve thirty five. 0:10:51.721 --> 0:10:55.361 Am he Noticed marty And stacy's cars there and thought 0:10:55.401 --> 0:10:57.961 that was a little bit, odd but figured maybe they 0:10:57.961 --> 0:11:01.521 were just closing up later. Something but this person told 0:11:01.561 --> 0:11:04.641 police he did not notice a red truck or a black. 0:11:04.681 --> 0:11:08.160 Car there were also some men who showed up every 0:11:08.241 --> 0:11:11.401 night for their paper. Route the local, newspaper The Late 0:11:11.481 --> 0:11:14.361 Charles American, press had a van that would arrive in 0:11:14.361 --> 0:11:17.281 the early morning hours to drop papers with the delivery. 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.881 Men those men would wait in the kk's parking lot 0:11:21.041 --> 0:11:23.881 for that van and then hang out and usually fold 0:11:23.921 --> 0:11:26.961 their papers there before starting out on their. Route, now 0:11:27.041 --> 0:11:30.521 one of those paper delivery, Guys Jerry, peters told police 0:11:30.561 --> 0:11:32.521 that he was waiting to pick up his papers At 0:11:32.641 --> 0:11:36.081 kk's between one p fifteen and one thirty. Am he 0:11:36.201 --> 0:11:38.921 was parked across the street at The Fairview estates trailer, 0:11:38.961 --> 0:11:42.241 park and while he was, there he said that he 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:46.121 saw an Unmarked Share department vehicle also pull into The 0:11:46.121 --> 0:11:50.441 Fairview estate's trailer. Park Then jerry said he saw a 0:11:50.481 --> 0:11:53.401 white male get out of a Green Eagle, talon A 0:11:53.481 --> 0:11:55.561 s forty car with a hatchback that was made By 0:11:55.641 --> 0:11:59.281 chrysler And. Mitsubishi jerry said that he saw the man 0:11:59.361 --> 0:12:02.121 go over to The Sheriff's department vehicle and then go 0:12:02.241 --> 0:12:04.521 back to his own car as the police car pulled 0:12:04.561 --> 0:12:07.160 in behind. Him the guy in the police car got 0:12:07.201 --> 0:12:10.161 out opened his. Trunk jerry said that he thought the 0:12:10.201 --> 0:12:13.241 other guy in The talon also opened his. Trunk he 0:12:13.321 --> 0:12:16.121 said they talked, briefly and Then jerry saw that the 0:12:16.121 --> 0:12:19.321 guy with The talon slammed his. Trunk In jerry's, words 0:12:19.801 --> 0:12:23.121 that man looked visibly. Upset then he got back in 0:12:23.161 --> 0:12:26.281 his car and drove, off almost backing into the police 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.561 car in the. Process then both cars turned north On 0:12:29.641 --> 0:12:34.881 highway fourteen and. Disappeared the man in the Unmarked Sheriff's 0:12:34.921 --> 0:12:38.961 department vehicle has never been. Identified what was he doing? 0:12:39.001 --> 0:12:41.281 There could he have had something to do with the 0:12:41.321 --> 0:12:44.321 killings At kk's corner or could he have known what 0:12:44.441 --> 0:12:49.641 was going down that. Night in closing, Arguments Thomas cisco's, 0:12:49.681 --> 0:12:54.361 Lawyer evelyn New bray mentioned another potential Suspect Miles. Addison 0:12:55.121 --> 0:12:57.761 she pointed out That Miles addison knew the workings of the, 0:12:57.801 --> 0:13:01.801 store the surveillance, videos the, videotape That Miles addison Knew 0:13:01.841 --> 0:13:04.680 marty And, stacey and that he knew the store. Procedures 0:13:04.721 --> 0:13:08.961 at closing, Time evelyn U bray also Mentioned richard mcelvin 0:13:09.401 --> 0:13:12.801 and another suspect that the police had. Suggested at one 0:13:12.881 --> 0:13:16.961 point she noticed those men's similarities to the composite. 0:13:17.001 --> 0:13:19.241 Photo evelyn New bray. 0:13:19.001 --> 0:13:22.241 Said that none of these potential suspects had any connection 0:13:22.321 --> 0:13:26.161 To Thomas, cisco THOUGH i will point out one possible 0:13:26.161 --> 0:13:28.681 connection is the fact that they all did Know Stacy. 0:13:28.721 --> 0:13:35.361 Reeves evelyn also highlighted problems With Thomas cisco's. Confessions she 0:13:35.601 --> 0:13:39.481 questioned Whether Thomas cisco was really giving information to the 0:13:39.521 --> 0:13:42.841 police that only the killer would have, known or just 0:13:42.881 --> 0:13:46.161 repeating information that he could have gotten from Watching America's Most. 0:13:46.161 --> 0:13:50.241 Wanted we know That Virginia johnson was driving her boyfriend's 0:13:50.241 --> 0:13:54.121 black pickup truck that. Night Thomas cisco told police he 0:13:54.241 --> 0:13:57.560 saw the witness pull up in a turquoise. Car now 0:13:57.601 --> 0:14:00.801 in her closing, Statement evelyn New bray pointed out that 0:14:00.841 --> 0:14:04.721 The America's Most wanted re enactment showed the perpetrator pulling 0:14:04.801 --> 0:14:08.801 up in a blue, car And Thomas cisco said in 0:14:08.921 --> 0:14:12.161 every version of his story that the witness was, white 0:14:12.681 --> 0:14:16.721 While Virginia johnson is black And Tomas cisco wasn't the 0:14:16.761 --> 0:14:21.521 only person whose memory and Testimony evelyn called. Out under, 0:14:21.601 --> 0:14:25.201 Hypnosis Virginia johnson talked about the second man she. Saw 0:14:25.801 --> 0:14:28.841 she said that that second man had a rabbit head. 0:14:28.921 --> 0:14:32.881 Keychain the rabbit head did not become a rabbit foot until. 0:14:32.921 --> 0:14:36.001 Later we've talked about this. Before evelya and New bray 0:14:36.041 --> 0:14:39.161 wondered in court whether it could have been a playboy 0:14:39.161 --> 0:14:42.921 bunny symbol those were everywhere in the, nineties or something. 0:14:42.961 --> 0:14:47.401 Else how did investigators get the change from rabbit's head 0:14:47.441 --> 0:14:52.401 to rabbit's. Foot, Also Virginia johnson mentioned seeing the. 0:14:52.481 --> 0:14:53.761 Hair on the arms of the. 0:14:53.801 --> 0:14:57.961 Witness Tomas cisco has several tattoos on his, arm including a, 0:14:58.041 --> 0:15:02.561 dragon Yet Virginia johnson never mentioned a tattoo until the, 0:15:02.641 --> 0:15:05.681 lineup when she said that she remembered the second, man 0:15:05.721 --> 0:15:09.041 the one she hadn't seen that clearly had tattoos on his. 0:15:09.121 --> 0:15:13.641 Hands Virginia johnson said the, Victim Nicole, guidry had hair 0:15:13.681 --> 0:15:17.201 that was long in a, ponytail when in, Reality nicole's 0:15:17.241 --> 0:15:18.321 hair was four inches. 0:15:18.361 --> 0:15:20.801 Long but in The America's Most. 0:15:20.681 --> 0:15:24.241 Wanted, episode the re enactment actor Playing nicole had, long 0:15:24.361 --> 0:15:27.961 dark hair in a. Ponytail same story With Stacy reeve's. 0:15:28.001 --> 0:15:31.601 Outfit stacy was wearing an orange shirt and orange. Shorts 0:15:32.001 --> 0:15:34.761 virginia said the shirt was lime green and That stacy 0:15:34.841 --> 0:15:37.121 was wearing blue jean shorts that went down to her. Knees, 0:15:37.721 --> 0:15:42.161 again that's what the actress Playing stacy wore on THE tv. Show, 0:15:42.801 --> 0:15:46.721 basically the defense called into question Whether Virginia johnson actually 0:15:46.761 --> 0:15:49.881 remembered what she thought she, remembered or whether it could 0:15:49.881 --> 0:15:52.721 have been something she saw ON tv or something that 0:15:52.761 --> 0:15:56.561 was suggested to, her even totally unintentionally by police or 0:15:56.601 --> 0:15:59.721 by other. People we found out that there were a 0:15:59.841 --> 0:16:04.401 lot of inconsistencies In Virginia johnson's. Story in her closing, 0:16:04.481 --> 0:16:07.801 Arguments evelyne New bray talked about what she claimed were 0:16:07.841 --> 0:16:12.001 flaws in the witness. Identification we mentioned in earlier episodes 0:16:12.201 --> 0:16:14.481 that a lot of people in town talked about how 0:16:14.521 --> 0:16:18.121 the composite photo looked similar To Richard. Mcalvin but it 0:16:18.161 --> 0:16:21.641 turns Out Richard mcalvin was not the only person with 0:16:21.721 --> 0:16:24.881 a resemblance to that. Photo evelyn New bray said the 0:16:24.881 --> 0:16:29.481 photo resembled other, people including former Kk's corner Employee Miles 0:16:29.521 --> 0:16:33.001 adison and another. Man she showed those photos and the 0:16:33.041 --> 0:16:37.521 composite drawings side by side in that. Courtroom, meanwhile she 0:16:37.601 --> 0:16:41.441 said there were no composite drawings that Resembled Tomas. Cisco 0:16:41.801 --> 0:16:45.001 in closing, arguments she taught talked about the difference between 0:16:45.041 --> 0:16:49.441 direct evidence like a, witness an indirect or circumstantial. Evidence 0:16:49.921 --> 0:16:52.761 to illustrate, that she gave the example of someone seeing 0:16:52.761 --> 0:16:55.321 a person come in with a, gun then hearing a, 0:16:55.361 --> 0:16:56.561 shot and seeing that. 0:16:56.561 --> 0:16:59.161 Person flee the. Scene that would be indirect. 0:16:59.201 --> 0:17:02.881 Evidence she said that the case Against Thomas cisco was 0:17:03.121 --> 0:17:06.760 entirely circumstantial and the jury was instructed they could not 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.640 convict a defendant based on circumstantial evidence unless quote the 0:17:10.721 --> 0:17:15.160 facts proved by the evidence exclude every reasonable hypothesis of 0:17:15.201 --> 0:17:20.440 innocence end. Quote there was no physical, evidence no scientific, 0:17:20.481 --> 0:17:25.160 evidence and no direct evidence Against Tomas. Cisco evely And 0:17:25.281 --> 0:17:28.761 wbray also talked about common. Sense she said that this 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.161 crime did not make sense from a common sense point 0:17:31.161 --> 0:17:33.400 of view. Either she asked a question that a lot 0:17:33.441 --> 0:17:36.360 of people have, asked why would someone drive all the 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:39.480 way From New orleans to Rob Kk's, corner one of 0:17:39.521 --> 0:17:41.801 the most highly trafficked convenience stores in that. 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.361 Area she asked the jury to. 0:17:44.281 --> 0:17:48.201 Consider how someone Of Thomas, cisco's as she called, it limited, 0:17:48.281 --> 0:17:51.600 intelligence who according to his medical, records had, blackouts and 0:17:51.641 --> 0:17:54.241 who did, drugs and who, was according to his own 0:17:54.281 --> 0:17:56.761 testimony a lot of the time blacked out on drugs 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:00.241 during this time. Period how someone like that could have 0:18:00.321 --> 0:18:03.120 planned a crime that involved intimate knowledge of the store 0:18:03.361 --> 0:18:07.521 and left no evidence. Behind Evelyn ubray told the jury 0:18:07.721 --> 0:18:09.920 That Thomas cisco would not have had the knowledge of 0:18:09.921 --> 0:18:12.561 the store's security systems or the knowledge of how to 0:18:12.601 --> 0:18:15.880 cut those phone. Lines and she said none of the 0:18:15.921 --> 0:18:18.721 suspects or potential people of interest that the police had 0:18:18.801 --> 0:18:22.561 questioned or even, considered had any connection To Thomas. Cisco 0:18:23.401 --> 0:18:27.481 the prosecuting, Attorney Rick bryant. Countered he, Said Thomas cisco 0:18:27.601 --> 0:18:31.721 was not, naive he was not, dumb he was extremely street, 0:18:31.761 --> 0:18:34.001 smart and he absolutely could have had a role in 0:18:34.041 --> 0:18:38.241 the murders And Rick bryant asked Why Virginia, johnson the, 0:18:38.241 --> 0:18:42.281 witness would have any reason to. Lie Evelyn ubray said 0:18:42.481 --> 0:18:45.840 she might not have intentionedly, lied but that memory is 0:18:45.921 --> 0:18:46.361 like a tape. 0:18:46.401 --> 0:18:47.920 Recorder things can be. 0:18:47.961 --> 0:18:52.001 Distorted even if people think their recall is, perfect they 0:18:52.041 --> 0:18:55.401 could be dead. Wrong she also talked about the fact 0:18:55.441 --> 0:18:58.041 that many of the details of the WITNESS id did 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:00.881 not come out until months after the, murder When Virginia 0:19:00.961 --> 0:19:05.281 johnson was. Hypnotized so let's talk about this hypnosis for a. 0:19:05.281 --> 0:19:08.801 Minute we did some. Digging we found out the hypnosis 0:19:08.881 --> 0:19:12.321 was done by a forensic psychologist named Doctor Michael. Gallis 0:19:12.761 --> 0:19:15.600 now Doctor gallis is very well. Known he was the 0:19:15.681 --> 0:19:19.441 chief forensic psychologist for The Naval Criminal Investigative services in 0:19:19.441 --> 0:19:21.761 two thousand and two when he and some of his 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:26.001 colleagues found out The navy was using unauthorized interrogation techniques 0:19:26.041 --> 0:19:28.880 on one of the suspected hijackers from nine to. Eleven 0:19:29.281 --> 0:19:33.441 they claimed that Hijacker mohammad Al catani had been deprived 0:19:33.481 --> 0:19:37.281 of sleep for twenty eight. Days Doctor gallis was praised 0:19:37.281 --> 0:19:40.120 for blowing the whistle about these illegal interrogations that were 0:19:40.121 --> 0:19:43.441 happening In Guantanamo, bay but his career has also had 0:19:43.521 --> 0:19:47.281 its share of. Controversy in nineteen ninety, nine Doctor gellis 0:19:47.281 --> 0:19:51.801 interviewed A naval Officer Petty, Officer Daniel. Kane daniel had 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.721 been stationed In. Guam he was supposed to start a 0:19:54.761 --> 0:19:58.121 new assignment with THE. Nsa before he accepted that, position 0:19:58.281 --> 0:20:00.641 he apparently had to take a routine polygraph. 0:20:00.721 --> 0:20:02.241 Test the test was. 0:20:02.241 --> 0:20:06.641 Inconclusive daniel ended up being charged with providing classified information 0:20:06.801 --> 0:20:11.761 ABOUT us submarine intelligence programs To. Russia SO ncis agents 0:20:11.801 --> 0:20:15.481 started Interrogating. Daniel they detained, him which they were allowed to, 0:20:15.481 --> 0:20:17.961 do and the questioning sessions lasted. 0:20:17.601 --> 0:20:19.161 Between twelve and nineteen. 0:20:19.241 --> 0:20:24.001 Hours they did this for twenty nine, days and When 0:20:24.121 --> 0:20:28.321 daniel asked for a, lawyer they ignored. Him daniel started 0:20:28.321 --> 0:20:31.721 to lose touch with. Reality he told his interrogators that 0:20:31.801 --> 0:20:35.441 he was depressed in. Suicidal after about three weeks of, 0:20:35.481 --> 0:20:38.120 this he told the agents holding him he wanted to 0:20:38.161 --> 0:20:41.161 see a, psychiatrist so that's when they brought in Doctor. 0:20:41.201 --> 0:20:45.721 Gellis daniel told Doctor galllis that he couldn't remember committing, 0:20:45.881 --> 0:20:49.801 espionage but said Doctor gallis told him the polygraph examination 0:20:50.001 --> 0:20:53.721 proved he must have done. Something this obviously wasn't. True 0:20:54.241 --> 0:20:56.721 daniel was also told that he had failed the polygraph 0:20:56.801 --> 0:21:01.121 test that also wasn't. True the results were. Inconclusive according 0:21:01.121 --> 0:21:05.400 to a later, Complaint daniel became extremely distraught during this. 0:21:05.561 --> 0:21:08.961 Questioning he grabbed a knife and tried to stab himself 0:21:09.001 --> 0:21:13.721 in the. Stomach After Daniel king was eventually, released his 0:21:13.801 --> 0:21:16.640 attorney filed an ethics complaint against Doctor gallis with THE, 0:21:16.641 --> 0:21:21.361 apa but it was not, accepted and the controversy over 0:21:21.441 --> 0:21:25.001 Doctor gallis and over Those guantanamo interrogations continues to this. 0:21:25.161 --> 0:21:28.161 Day all of this went down just two years after 0:21:28.201 --> 0:21:31.400 the murders at Kk's. Corner i'm telling this story to 0:21:31.521 --> 0:21:34.840 illustrate that hypnosis is not some kind of magic. 0:21:34.881 --> 0:21:35.841 Bullet it's. 0:21:35.881 --> 0:21:40.160 Controversial the success of any interrogation relies heavily on the, 0:21:40.201 --> 0:21:43.761 interrogators and we know that there were many different versions 0:21:43.761 --> 0:21:48.081 Of Thomas cisco's story, told and many different versions Of Virginia. 0:21:48.121 --> 0:21:53.681 Johnson's during the Kk's corner, trial Doctor gellis testified about the. 0:21:53.721 --> 0:21:58.241 Hypnosis he said hypnosis was quote nothing more than a 0:21:58.281 --> 0:22:01.681 form of relaxation end. Quote he said there is no 0:22:01.881 --> 0:22:06.201 research to show that information obtained under hypnosis is. Accurate he, 0:22:06.321 --> 0:22:08.680 explained the only way to know for sure was to 0:22:08.721 --> 0:22:13.120 independently corroborate that. Information but in the Kk's corner, case 0:22:13.481 --> 0:22:17.081 corroborating the evidence was difficult, because as we have been 0:22:17.121 --> 0:22:21.120 told over and, over there was no physical. Evidence but 0:22:21.201 --> 0:22:24.721 it turned out that wasn't quite. True according to THE fbi, 0:22:24.801 --> 0:22:28.681 report Numerous caucasian hairs were found on the, bodies but 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.160 none of those hairs were a match For Thomas. Cisco 0:22:31.921 --> 0:22:34.761 blood samples were taken from the crime. Scene none of 0:22:34.801 --> 0:22:38.801 the blood samples Matched Thomas, cisco and there were only 0:22:38.881 --> 0:22:42.241 four latent prints taken from the entire crime, scene but 0:22:42.361 --> 0:22:45.281 none of those prints were A machi. Either THE fbi 0:22:45.361 --> 0:22:47.881 report also mentioned there were other fibers at the crime, 0:22:47.921 --> 0:22:53.401 scene blue green and red carpet type. Fibers those fibers 0:22:53.401 --> 0:22:57.201 were taken off all of the. Victims investigators never found 0:22:57.201 --> 0:23:01.201 a match to those. Fibers Evelyn ubray stated in court 0:23:01.441 --> 0:23:04.201 That Tomas cisco was a chainsmoker and that there was 0:23:04.241 --> 0:23:06.481 a cigarette butt found on the floor of the, cooler 0:23:06.921 --> 0:23:09.681 but there was no record of that cigarette ever being 0:23:09.681 --> 0:23:13.840 processed FOR. Dna she asked why law enforcement did not 0:23:14.121 --> 0:23:16.321 test a cigarette that could have been linked to the. 0:23:16.401 --> 0:23:18.321 Killer we asked about the. 0:23:18.401 --> 0:23:21.281 Evidence we wanted to know whether it could be retested, 0:23:21.321 --> 0:23:24.761 today but we're still not sure of the. Status we 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:27.601 don't know if the evidence still exists or what condition it's. 0:23:27.641 --> 0:23:30.641 In Lame lebuff believes that it burned in a, fire 0:23:31.041 --> 0:23:34.201 but we don't have confirmation of. That if it does 0:23:34.281 --> 0:23:37.160 exist and if they still have, it could it be 0:23:37.241 --> 0:23:45.761 retested and could that testing lead to another. Suspect At 0:23:45.801 --> 0:23:49.080 Thomas sisko's, trial his defense Attorney evelyn U bray was 0:23:49.121 --> 0:23:52.880 trying to focus the jury on alternative, suspects and a 0:23:52.961 --> 0:23:56.001 lot of people wondered if this case could be connected 0:23:56.001 --> 0:23:58.281 to drug deals that had been going down At Kk's. 0:23:58.281 --> 0:24:01.080 Corner you may remember from last week that the owner 0:24:01.121 --> 0:24:03.441 of the store at the, Time Kenny, klein said that 0:24:03.481 --> 0:24:06.201 about a year before the, murders an employee came to 0:24:06.281 --> 0:24:10.161 him and told him that several, employees Including Marty lebuff 0:24:10.361 --> 0:24:15.121 And Nathaniel, gobert were dealing drugs At Kk's. Corner police 0:24:15.201 --> 0:24:19.241 talked to the, Employee Stephen. Viator he said that when 0:24:19.241 --> 0:24:22.321