WEBVTT - Judging Sam: Sam Bankman-Fried Faces Cross-Examination

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Jacob Goldstein sitting in for Michael Lewis. It's Monday,

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<v Speaker 2>October thirtieth, and this morning the defense finished questioning Sam

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<v Speaker 2>Bankman Freed and the prosecution started its cross examination. Lydda

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<v Speaker 2>jen Kott and Michael were both at the courthouse and

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<v Speaker 2>at the lunch break they talked about what happened this morning.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, I'm Gareth michaelis that side of the courthouse, Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>Lydia jeans.

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<v Speaker 4>We just spent the morning listening to first Sam Bank

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<v Speaker 4>and Freed underdirect which was more of the same and

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<v Speaker 4>it's boring if you read the book, because it's just

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<v Speaker 4>like it. It's just telling the story. And then the

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<v Speaker 4>prosecution has now had a chance to cross examine him

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<v Speaker 4>for an hour and a half and it's it feels relentless,

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<v Speaker 4>but there's not a lot of information coming out. My

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<v Speaker 4>first take is it between uray, the first time Sam

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<v Speaker 4>had any kind of exposure to being cross examined, and

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<v Speaker 4>now he's learned not to talk, and so the fun

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<v Speaker 4>of Sam is just letting him loose and all the

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<v Speaker 4>fund's gone when all he says is yes and no

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<v Speaker 4>or I don't remember. I would say the things that

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<v Speaker 4>jump out of me. It's amazing how little he remembers

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<v Speaker 4>of things he said. I guess if you asked me strictly,

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<v Speaker 4>do I remember exactly what I said to some reporter

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<v Speaker 4>on a book two or two years ago. I probably

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<v Speaker 4>wouldn't remember, at least exactly, but I'd have a sense

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<v Speaker 4>of whether it was sort of plausible or not plausible.

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<v Speaker 4>And the combination of Sam basically being monosyllabic and Daniels

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<v Speaker 4>assumed coming at him with machine guns machine gun worth

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<v Speaker 4>of questions. I was trying to think of what it

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<v Speaker 4>reminded me of. It reminded me when I was pulled

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<v Speaker 4>into the principal's office, or when my mother asked me

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<v Speaker 4>what I was doing last night, and it was like

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<v Speaker 4>giving them as little information as possible, but they're just

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<v Speaker 4>pounding you boom boom, boom, boom boom. It's not that

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<v Speaker 4>fun to watch.

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<v Speaker 3>No, it's a bit painful because someone who didn't get

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<v Speaker 3>pulled into the principal's office. It reminded me of the

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<v Speaker 3>feeling of that one kid in class who's in so

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<v Speaker 3>much trouble and you're watching him being destroyed, and part

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<v Speaker 3>of you is like almost kind of enjoying it in

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<v Speaker 3>like the sick a sick way, like the worst part

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<v Speaker 3>of you, and most of you is just like, thank God,

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<v Speaker 3>that's not me, and then you feel just bad overall.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, one interesting. I'm in the overflow room rather than

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<v Speaker 4>the actual courtroom to day, and it's actually, in some

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<v Speaker 4>ways a better view because the camera's trained on Sam

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<v Speaker 4>and you can actually see him more clearly than you

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<v Speaker 4>can in the courtroom. So one of the things I'm

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<v Speaker 4>noticing is how little crowd reaction there is the over

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<v Speaker 4>flow room up till now. When I've been there's a

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<v Speaker 4>lot more noise, laughter, sounds of skepticism, whatever it is.

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<v Speaker 4>And for the last hour and a half it's been

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<v Speaker 4>very quiet, like people trying to make sense of what

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<v Speaker 4>this is. I also have I've been being pounded. I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>people have been asking me lots of questions. I get

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<v Speaker 4>in the elevator. I feel like I'm being interviewed by

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<v Speaker 4>ten journalists at once. And the question I keep getting asked,

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<v Speaker 4>is this person on the stand the same person who

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<v Speaker 4>you spent the last year and a half with. And

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<v Speaker 4>I would say on Thursday, I felt, yes, I recognize

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<v Speaker 4>that person. The legal system has completely expunged him from

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<v Speaker 4>the courtroom because he's not talking. So Sam answering questions

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<v Speaker 4>yes or no is a different person. He feels like

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<v Speaker 4>a different person. So it's the character's less I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>I hate to put it this way. It's's less fun,

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<v Speaker 4>it's less interesting. Yeah, that's my two cents right now.

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<v Speaker 2>So Lydia, Jean and Michael went back into court for

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<v Speaker 2>the afternoon. It's now five thirty Monday evening, and now

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<v Speaker 2>I'm here with Lydia Jean. Lydda Jean. You left the courthouse,

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<v Speaker 2>took the subway to the office, and literally like two

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<v Speaker 2>minutes ago, walked into the studio.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, that's true. I grabbed a cup of water, slacker.

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<v Speaker 2>So I want to talk with you about what happened

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<v Speaker 2>in the afternoon after you and Michael went back into court.

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<v Speaker 2>But before we do that, I want to talk a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit more about the morning. I feel like you

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<v Speaker 2>and Michael sort of captured the vibes, right, but let's

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<v Speaker 2>just talk a little bit more about what happened. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>first of all, the defense finished. It's what many hours

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<v Speaker 2>long questioning of Sam this morning, and so just to

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<v Speaker 2>step back from that, right, you now have the full

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<v Speaker 2>picture of the defense's direct examination of Sam, like what

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<v Speaker 2>do you think they were doing? Like what argument do

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<v Speaker 2>you think they were trying to advance through Sam's testimony.

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<v Speaker 3>I think the story that he basically told is that

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<v Speaker 3>he really didn't know about a lot of the things

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<v Speaker 3>that were happening with Alameda, and he just thought Alameda

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<v Speaker 3>was a very successful company that was doing really well,

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<v Speaker 3>and so was FTX, And he had no idea that

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<v Speaker 3>Alameda was, you know, had even the potential to be

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<v Speaker 3>insolvent until FTX crashed in November, And he cast all

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<v Speaker 3>of the conversations that he had with Caroline Allison, Gary Wong,

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<v Speaker 3>and Nishad saying in a totally different late, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Mean, maybe the subtext of what you're saying, or the

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<v Speaker 2>implication of what you're saying is their actual defense was

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<v Speaker 2>not some kind of logical argument, but rather, this is

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<v Speaker 2>a good person who was sort of out of his depth.

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<v Speaker 2>Take pity on him one juror, and just refuse to

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<v Speaker 2>find him guilty.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think the crux of it is that he

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<v Speaker 3>didn't know that anything bad was happening. He thought both

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<v Speaker 3>of these companies were chugging along just the way that

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<v Speaker 3>they were supposed to. He was making these calculations and

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<v Speaker 3>they were a little bit off and that was his bad.

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<v Speaker 3>But it's because they didn't have a risk compliance officer,

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<v Speaker 3>which they should have had, But it was because the

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<v Speaker 3>company was growing so quickly, and you know, human errors

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<v Speaker 3>were made, but no fraud was committed.

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<v Speaker 2>That is a version of the story the defense told,

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<v Speaker 2>did you buy it?

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<v Speaker 3>I felt like there wasn't enough there for me to

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<v Speaker 3>buy it. I needed to know more. Why would everyone

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<v Speaker 3>around him have these stories of how they knew this

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<v Speaker 3>was happening and this was bad? And told him, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>it's just hard when there's three against one.

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<v Speaker 2>Three meaning the three other senior people at FTX who

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<v Speaker 2>testified against him exactly. So that's the defense's direct examination

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<v Speaker 2>of Sam. And then also today you heard many hours

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<v Speaker 2>of the prosecution's cross examination of Sam. You and Michael

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<v Speaker 2>talked about the beginning of the cross at lunch, but

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch more has happened right since then, So what

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<v Speaker 2>were the highlights from that? What was the sort of

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<v Speaker 2>key takeaways from cross examination today?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so cross is really the reason why reporters lined

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<v Speaker 3>up extra early this morning. Everyone was really excited to

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<v Speaker 3>see it. And it's in part because Danielle Sasuon, the prosecutor,

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<v Speaker 3>has kind of become a bit of a cult hero

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<v Speaker 3>of the trial, I would say. And the thing about

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<v Speaker 3>her is that she's pretty petite, she's kind of hunched,

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<v Speaker 3>very smiley, and she kind of comes across as a

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<v Speaker 3>little bit goofy Early in the trial, she told the

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<v Speaker 3>judge that she accidentally walked into the jurors room and

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<v Speaker 3>the lawyers really are not allowed to talk to the jurors,

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<v Speaker 3>and she said that she apologized and they all laughed

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<v Speaker 3>at her, and she just wanted that to be on

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<v Speaker 3>the record. You know, her mom comes to the courtroom sometimes,

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<v Speaker 3>so that's kind of her vibe.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you took her accidentally walking into the jury room

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<v Speaker 2>was not an accident? Do you think that was some

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<v Speaker 2>kind of ten dimensional chess?

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<v Speaker 1>No?

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think that.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it could be, right, Like I presume she's very,

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<v Speaker 2>very very smart.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, but I also think she's a woman who really

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<v Speaker 3>really respects rules. Okay, and that's why she's a prosecutor.

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<v Speaker 2>So okay, so you're setting her up. She's this interesting

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<v Speaker 2>cult figure. This is her big dramatic moment, right, this

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<v Speaker 2>is her You can't handle the truth moment.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, And it's a huge deal right to be getting

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<v Speaker 3>to do cross examination to this, you know, in call

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<v Speaker 3>her case where the defendant who's the CEO, actually took

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<v Speaker 3>the stand. And the other thing I want to say

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<v Speaker 3>is that when she does cross examination, it's like she

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<v Speaker 3>completely transforms as a person right Like she does that,

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<v Speaker 3>her hunch becomes straight, her voice becomes really commanding. It

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<v Speaker 3>feels like, you know, like a knife cutting almost like

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<v Speaker 3>it's really it's scary. You definitely think you don't want

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<v Speaker 3>to wrong her. And that's why I think people were

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<v Speaker 3>looking forward to see this battle of her versus.

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<v Speaker 2>Sam Danielle the knife sassoon versus s.

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<v Speaker 3>Behalf exactly, and I would say she one hundred percent delivered. Wow,

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<v Speaker 3>it went really really fast, Like she would ask Sam

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<v Speaker 3>Bankman free to question, and usually his answer would be

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<v Speaker 3>something like I don't recall that, and then she would

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<v Speaker 3>show us a tweet or play a podcast clip or

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<v Speaker 3>pull up a news clip that shows the opposite of

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<v Speaker 3>what he said, and they just went back and forth.

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<v Speaker 3>Someone who was in the courtroom said that it was

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<v Speaker 3>like they were playing ping pong and the jury was

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<v Speaker 3>just going from moving their heads, from Sassoon to Sam,

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<v Speaker 3>from Sassoon to Sam Well and.

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<v Speaker 2>Who was scoring more points.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know if Sam BigMan Freed really scored any points.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh huh, so Sassoon won. If it was a ping

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<v Speaker 2>pong match.

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<v Speaker 3>I would say that so far Sassoon won. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>what's funny is that nothing really new came out because

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<v Speaker 3>she was really just using his own words to bury him.

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<v Speaker 2>Really nothing new in terms of what has been news,

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<v Speaker 2>or nothing new in terms of what the jurors have seen.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, was there stuff that was new to the jurors.

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<v Speaker 3>I think definitely nothing new that's news because it was

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<v Speaker 3>mostly based off of news. It was a great day

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<v Speaker 3>for the reporters since you know, the New York Times

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<v Speaker 3>was mentioned.

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<v Speaker 2>We all got to see their work up on the screen.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, the Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times, Zeke

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<v Speaker 3>Fox's book, and it was all things that we had

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<v Speaker 3>covered earlier. Basically, you know, Sam BigMan Frey talked a

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<v Speaker 3>lot about how there's this wall between him and all

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<v Speaker 3>and how he wasn't involved in trading on Alameda, and

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<v Speaker 3>then she pointed out all these conversations that he had

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<v Speaker 3>with Caroline Allison and Sam Trabuco, who also used to

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<v Speaker 3>be the head of Alameda where he was suggesting trades,

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<v Speaker 3>and then she played a podcast of him saying that

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<v Speaker 3>he doesn't give a podcast episode of him telling a

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<v Speaker 3>journalist that he doesn't offer Alameda trading advice because of

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<v Speaker 3>the wall. So it was things like that. It was

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<v Speaker 3>all things that we knew, but all coming very rapidly,

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<v Speaker 3>and all just kind of painting a picture of Sam

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<v Speaker 3>Makman Freed being a man who you can't trust.

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<v Speaker 2>And so when you take in your mind now the

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<v Speaker 2>balance of Sam's testimony on direct questioning by defense and

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<v Speaker 2>then his testimony on cross by the knife, what you know,

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<v Speaker 2>what do you make of it all? Where do you land?

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's just much easier to feel like the

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<v Speaker 3>prosecution did better, if for no other reason then that

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<v Speaker 3>it feels like Danielle Sassoon is very sure of herself

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<v Speaker 3>and knows exactly the story that she's telling, and on

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<v Speaker 3>direct it didn't feel that way. It didn't feel like

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<v Speaker 3>the defense lawyer brought that same sort of conviction for

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<v Speaker 3>the story that he was telling.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll be back in a minute with one last thing,

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<v Speaker 2>Lady Jane. It's been a minute and now we're back

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<v Speaker 2>with one last thing. I feel like we're getting to

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<v Speaker 2>the stage of the trial where where we're almost to

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<v Speaker 2>one last thing left in the trial. Not quite though, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So what is left? What still has to happen before

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<v Speaker 2>this trial is over?

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<v Speaker 3>Exactly? It's more like a few last things.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay.

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<v Speaker 3>We have two more hours of cross examination with Sam,

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<v Speaker 3>and then redirect, which is when the defense lawyers can

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<v Speaker 3>go back and ask Sam a few more questions, and

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<v Speaker 3>then the prosecution is going to put on a rebuttal case,

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<v Speaker 3>which will also be short. That's just two witnesses who

0:12:06.236 --> 0:12:08.116
<v Speaker 3>will each be on the stand for about thirty minutes.

0:12:08.276 --> 0:12:12.076
<v Speaker 2>Rebuttal meaning rebudding the defense case exactly, okay.

0:12:12.156 --> 0:12:15.076
<v Speaker 3>And it'll be a data analyst from the FBI. And

0:12:15.116 --> 0:12:18.396
<v Speaker 3>then someone who works at Apollo, Sam Mcmunfreed was hoping

0:12:18.436 --> 0:12:23.396
<v Speaker 3>that Apollo would rescue FTX when it, you know, exploded, okay.

0:12:23.516 --> 0:12:25.996
<v Speaker 2>Apollo is a giant private equity firm.

0:12:26.236 --> 0:12:28.756
<v Speaker 3>I believe, yes, And the question at issue is what

0:12:28.796 --> 0:12:32.076
<v Speaker 3>did he tell people at Apollo? Okay? And then we

0:12:32.196 --> 0:12:36.876
<v Speaker 3>have you know, closing statements and jury instructions.

0:12:36.436 --> 0:12:39.356
<v Speaker 2>And then the jury goes off and tries to come

0:12:39.396 --> 0:12:39.556
<v Speaker 2>to a.

0:12:39.596 --> 0:12:41.676
<v Speaker 3>Verdict and no one knows how long that will take.

0:12:42.956 --> 0:12:44.556
<v Speaker 2>Good to talk to you as always, Lyddy Jine, Hope

0:12:44.556 --> 0:12:44.916
<v Speaker 2>you get to.

0:12:44.876 --> 0:12:47.956
<v Speaker 3>Talk again, Souper Yes, talk to you seeing Jacob Bye.

0:12:50.716 --> 0:12:52.916
<v Speaker 1>We'll be back in your feed soon with more expert

0:12:52.956 --> 0:12:56.876
<v Speaker 1>analysis and news from Sam Bankmanfreed's trial. Thanks for listening.

0:12:58.116 --> 0:13:01.076
<v Speaker 1>This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Jacob Goldstein.

0:13:01.836 --> 0:13:04.836
<v Speaker 1>Lydia jin Catt is our court reporter. Catherine Gerardau and

0:13:04.916 --> 0:13:08.676
<v Speaker 1>Nisha Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor.

0:13:09.116 --> 0:13:12.396
<v Speaker 1>Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans

0:13:12.516 --> 0:13:15.956
<v Speaker 1>of stell Wagon Symphonet. Judging Sam is a production of

0:13:15.996 --> 0:13:19.396
<v Speaker 1>Pushkin Industries. Got a question or comment for me, There's

0:13:19.436 --> 0:13:24.076
<v Speaker 1>a website for that atr podcast dot com. That's atr

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