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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jacob Goldstein sitting in for Michael Lewis. It's Monday,

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Speaker 2: October thirtieth, and this morning the defense finished questioning Sam

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Speaker 2: Bankman Freed and the prosecution started its cross examination. Lydda

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Speaker 2: jen Kott and Michael were both at the courthouse and

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Speaker 2: at the lunch break they talked about what happened this morning.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm Gareth michaelis that side of the courthouse, Yes,

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Speaker 3: Lydia jeans.

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Speaker 4: We just spent the morning listening to first Sam Bank

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Speaker 4: and Freed underdirect which was more of the same and

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Speaker 4: it's boring if you read the book, because it's just

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Speaker 4: like it. It's just telling the story. And then the

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Speaker 4: prosecution has now had a chance to cross examine him

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Speaker 4: for an hour and a half and it's it feels relentless,

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Speaker 4: but there's not a lot of information coming out. My

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Speaker 4: first take is it between uray, the first time Sam

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Speaker 4: had any kind of exposure to being cross examined, and

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Speaker 4: now he's learned not to talk, and so the fun

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Speaker 4: of Sam is just letting him loose and all the

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Speaker 4: fund's gone when all he says is yes and no

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Speaker 4: or I don't remember. I would say the things that

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Speaker 4: jump out of me. It's amazing how little he remembers

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Speaker 4: of things he said. I guess if you asked me strictly,

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Speaker 4: do I remember exactly what I said to some reporter

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Speaker 4: on a book two or two years ago. I probably

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Speaker 4: wouldn't remember, at least exactly, but I'd have a sense

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Speaker 4: of whether it was sort of plausible or not plausible.

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Speaker 4: And the combination of Sam basically being monosyllabic and Daniels

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Speaker 4: assumed coming at him with machine guns machine gun worth

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Speaker 4: of questions. I was trying to think of what it

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Speaker 4: reminded me of. It reminded me when I was pulled

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Speaker 4: into the principal's office, or when my mother asked me

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Speaker 4: what I was doing last night, and it was like

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Speaker 4: giving them as little information as possible, but they're just

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Speaker 4: pounding you boom boom, boom, boom boom. It's not that

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Speaker 4: fun to watch.

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Speaker 3: No, it's a bit painful because someone who didn't get

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Speaker 3: pulled into the principal's office. It reminded me of the

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Speaker 3: feeling of that one kid in class who's in so

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Speaker 3: much trouble and you're watching him being destroyed, and part

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Speaker 3: of you is like almost kind of enjoying it in

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Speaker 3: like the sick a sick way, like the worst part

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Speaker 3: of you, and most of you is just like, thank God,

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Speaker 3: that's not me, and then you feel just bad overall.

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Speaker 4: Yes, one interesting. I'm in the overflow room rather than

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Speaker 4: the actual courtroom to day, and it's actually, in some

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Speaker 4: ways a better view because the camera's trained on Sam

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Speaker 4: and you can actually see him more clearly than you

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Speaker 4: can in the courtroom. So one of the things I'm

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Speaker 4: noticing is how little crowd reaction there is the over

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Speaker 4: flow room up till now. When I've been there's a

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Speaker 4: lot more noise, laughter, sounds of skepticism, whatever it is.

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Speaker 4: And for the last hour and a half it's been

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Speaker 4: very quiet, like people trying to make sense of what

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Speaker 4: this is. I also have I've been being pounded. I mean,

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Speaker 4: people have been asking me lots of questions. I get

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Speaker 4: in the elevator. I feel like I'm being interviewed by

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Speaker 4: ten journalists at once. And the question I keep getting asked,

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Speaker 4: is this person on the stand the same person who

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Speaker 4: you spent the last year and a half with. And

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Speaker 4: I would say on Thursday, I felt, yes, I recognize

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Speaker 4: that person. The legal system has completely expunged him from

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Speaker 4: the courtroom because he's not talking. So Sam answering questions

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Speaker 4: yes or no is a different person. He feels like

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Speaker 4: a different person. So it's the character's less I mean,

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Speaker 4: I hate to put it this way. It's's less fun,

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Speaker 4: it's less interesting. Yeah, that's my two cents right now.

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Speaker 2: So Lydia, Jean and Michael went back into court for

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Speaker 2: the afternoon. It's now five thirty Monday evening, and now

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Speaker 2: I'm here with Lydia Jean. Lydda Jean. You left the courthouse,

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Speaker 2: took the subway to the office, and literally like two

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Speaker 2: minutes ago, walked into the studio.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's true. I grabbed a cup of water, slacker.

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Speaker 2: So I want to talk with you about what happened

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Speaker 2: in the afternoon after you and Michael went back into court.

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Speaker 2: But before we do that, I want to talk a

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Speaker 2: little bit more about the morning. I feel like you

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Speaker 2: and Michael sort of captured the vibes, right, but let's

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Speaker 2: just talk a little bit more about what happened. I mean,

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Speaker 2: first of all, the defense finished. It's what many hours

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Speaker 2: long questioning of Sam this morning, and so just to

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Speaker 2: step back from that, right, you now have the full

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Speaker 2: picture of the defense's direct examination of Sam, like what

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Speaker 2: do you think they were doing? Like what argument do

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Speaker 2: you think they were trying to advance through Sam's testimony.

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Speaker 3: I think the story that he basically told is that

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Speaker 3: he really didn't know about a lot of the things

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Speaker 3: that were happening with Alameda, and he just thought Alameda

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Speaker 3: was a very successful company that was doing really well,

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Speaker 3: and so was FTX, And he had no idea that

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Speaker 3: Alameda was, you know, had even the potential to be

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Speaker 3: insolvent until FTX crashed in November, And he cast all

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Speaker 3: of the conversations that he had with Caroline Allison, Gary Wong,

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Speaker 3: and Nishad saying in a totally different late, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, maybe the subtext of what you're saying, or the

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Speaker 2: implication of what you're saying is their actual defense was

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Speaker 2: not some kind of logical argument, but rather, this is

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Speaker 2: a good person who was sort of out of his depth.

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Speaker 2: Take pity on him one juror, and just refuse to

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Speaker 2: find him guilty.

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Speaker 3: And I think the crux of it is that he

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Speaker 3: didn't know that anything bad was happening. He thought both

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Speaker 3: of these companies were chugging along just the way that

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Speaker 3: they were supposed to. He was making these calculations and

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Speaker 3: they were a little bit off and that was his bad.

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Speaker 3: But it's because they didn't have a risk compliance officer,

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Speaker 3: which they should have had, But it was because the

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Speaker 3: company was growing so quickly, and you know, human errors

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Speaker 3: were made, but no fraud was committed.

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Speaker 2: That is a version of the story the defense told,

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Speaker 2: did you buy it?

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Speaker 3: I felt like there wasn't enough there for me to

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Speaker 3: buy it. I needed to know more. Why would everyone

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Speaker 3: around him have these stories of how they knew this

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Speaker 3: was happening and this was bad? And told him, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's just hard when there's three against one.

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Speaker 2: Three meaning the three other senior people at FTX who

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Speaker 2: testified against him exactly. So that's the defense's direct examination

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Speaker 2: of Sam. And then also today you heard many hours

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Speaker 2: of the prosecution's cross examination of Sam. You and Michael

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Speaker 2: talked about the beginning of the cross at lunch, but

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Speaker 2: a bunch more has happened right since then, So what

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Speaker 2: were the highlights from that? What was the sort of

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Speaker 2: key takeaways from cross examination today?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so cross is really the reason why reporters lined

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Speaker 3: up extra early this morning. Everyone was really excited to

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Speaker 3: see it. And it's in part because Danielle Sasuon, the prosecutor,

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Speaker 3: has kind of become a bit of a cult hero

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Speaker 3: of the trial, I would say. And the thing about

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Speaker 3: her is that she's pretty petite, she's kind of hunched,

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Speaker 3: very smiley, and she kind of comes across as a

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Speaker 3: little bit goofy Early in the trial, she told the

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Speaker 3: judge that she accidentally walked into the jurors room and

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Speaker 3: the lawyers really are not allowed to talk to the jurors,

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Speaker 3: and she said that she apologized and they all laughed

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Speaker 3: at her, and she just wanted that to be on

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Speaker 3: the record. You know, her mom comes to the courtroom sometimes,

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Speaker 3: so that's kind of her vibe.

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Speaker 2: Do you took her accidentally walking into the jury room

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Speaker 2: was not an accident? Do you think that was some

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Speaker 2: kind of ten dimensional chess?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 3: I don't think that.

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Speaker 2: I mean it could be, right, Like I presume she's very,

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Speaker 2: very very smart.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but I also think she's a woman who really

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Speaker 3: really respects rules. Okay, and that's why she's a prosecutor.

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Speaker 2: So okay, so you're setting her up. She's this interesting

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Speaker 2: cult figure. This is her big dramatic moment, right, this

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Speaker 2: is her You can't handle the truth moment.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And it's a huge deal right to be getting

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Speaker 3: to do cross examination to this, you know, in call

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Speaker 3: her case where the defendant who's the CEO, actually took

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Speaker 3: the stand. And the other thing I want to say

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Speaker 3: is that when she does cross examination, it's like she

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Speaker 3: completely transforms as a person right Like she does that,

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Speaker 3: her hunch becomes straight, her voice becomes really commanding. It

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Speaker 3: feels like, you know, like a knife cutting almost like

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Speaker 3: it's really it's scary. You definitely think you don't want

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Speaker 3: to wrong her. And that's why I think people were

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Speaker 3: looking forward to see this battle of her versus.

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Speaker 2: Sam Danielle the knife sassoon versus s.

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Speaker 3: Behalf exactly, and I would say she one hundred percent delivered. Wow,

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Speaker 3: it went really really fast, Like she would ask Sam

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Speaker 3: Bankman free to question, and usually his answer would be

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Speaker 3: something like I don't recall that, and then she would

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Speaker 3: show us a tweet or play a podcast clip or

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Speaker 3: pull up a news clip that shows the opposite of

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Speaker 3: what he said, and they just went back and forth.

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Speaker 3: Someone who was in the courtroom said that it was

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Speaker 3: like they were playing ping pong and the jury was

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Speaker 3: just going from moving their heads, from Sassoon to Sam,

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Speaker 3: from Sassoon to Sam Well and.

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Speaker 2: Who was scoring more points.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if Sam BigMan Freed really scored any points.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh, so Sassoon won. If it was a ping

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Speaker 2: pong match.

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Speaker 3: I would say that so far Sassoon won. I mean,

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Speaker 3: what's funny is that nothing really new came out because

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Speaker 3: she was really just using his own words to bury him.

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Speaker 2: Really nothing new in terms of what has been news,

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Speaker 2: or nothing new in terms of what the jurors have seen.

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Speaker 2: I mean, was there stuff that was new to the jurors.

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Speaker 3: I think definitely nothing new that's news because it was

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Speaker 3: mostly based off of news. It was a great day

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Speaker 3: for the reporters since you know, the New York Times

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Speaker 3: was mentioned.

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Speaker 2: We all got to see their work up on the screen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times, Zeke

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Speaker 3: Fox's book, and it was all things that we had

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Speaker 3: covered earlier. Basically, you know, Sam BigMan Frey talked a

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Speaker 3: lot about how there's this wall between him and all

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Speaker 3: and how he wasn't involved in trading on Alameda, and

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Speaker 3: then she pointed out all these conversations that he had

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Speaker 3: with Caroline Allison and Sam Trabuco, who also used to

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Speaker 3: be the head of Alameda where he was suggesting trades,

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Speaker 3: and then she played a podcast of him saying that

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Speaker 3: he doesn't give a podcast episode of him telling a

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Speaker 3: journalist that he doesn't offer Alameda trading advice because of

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Speaker 3: the wall. So it was things like that. It was

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Speaker 3: all things that we knew, but all coming very rapidly,

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Speaker 3: and all just kind of painting a picture of Sam

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Speaker 3: Makman Freed being a man who you can't trust.

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Speaker 2: And so when you take in your mind now the

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Speaker 2: balance of Sam's testimony on direct questioning by defense and

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Speaker 2: then his testimony on cross by the knife, what you know,

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Speaker 2: what do you make of it all? Where do you land?

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's just much easier to feel like the

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Speaker 3: prosecution did better, if for no other reason then that

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Speaker 3: it feels like Danielle Sassoon is very sure of herself

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Speaker 3: and knows exactly the story that she's telling, and on

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Speaker 3: direct it didn't feel that way. It didn't feel like

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Speaker 3: the defense lawyer brought that same sort of conviction for

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Speaker 3: the story that he was telling.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back in a minute with one last thing,

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Speaker 2: Lady Jane. It's been a minute and now we're back

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Speaker 2: with one last thing. I feel like we're getting to

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Speaker 2: the stage of the trial where where we're almost to

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Speaker 2: one last thing left in the trial. Not quite though, right,

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Speaker 2: So what is left? What still has to happen before

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Speaker 2: this trial is over?

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Speaker 3: Exactly? It's more like a few last things.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: We have two more hours of cross examination with Sam,

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Speaker 3: and then redirect, which is when the defense lawyers can

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Speaker 3: go back and ask Sam a few more questions, and

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Speaker 3: then the prosecution is going to put on a rebuttal case,

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Speaker 3: which will also be short. That's just two witnesses who

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Speaker 3: will each be on the stand for about thirty minutes.

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Speaker 2: Rebuttal meaning rebudding the defense case exactly, okay.

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Speaker 3: And it'll be a data analyst from the FBI. And

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Speaker 3: then someone who works at Apollo, Sam Mcmunfreed was hoping

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Speaker 3: that Apollo would rescue FTX when it, you know, exploded, okay.

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Speaker 2: Apollo is a giant private equity firm.

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Speaker 3: I believe, yes, And the question at issue is what

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Speaker 3: did he tell people at Apollo? Okay? And then we

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Speaker 3: have you know, closing statements and jury instructions.

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Speaker 2: And then the jury goes off and tries to come

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Speaker 2: to a.

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Speaker 3: Verdict and no one knows how long that will take.

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Speaker 2: Good to talk to you as always, Lyddy Jine, Hope

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Speaker 2: you get to.

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Speaker 3: Talk again, Souper Yes, talk to you seeing Jacob Bye.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back in your feed soon with more expert

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Speaker 1: analysis and news from Sam Bankmanfreed's trial. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 1: This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Jacob Goldstein.

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Speaker 1: Lydia jin Catt is our court reporter. Catherine Gerardau and

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Speaker 1: Nisha Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor.

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Speaker 1: Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans

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Speaker 1: of stell Wagon Symphonet. Judging Sam is a production of

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Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Got a question or comment for me, There's

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