1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:22,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake here, and the launch of deep 2 00:00:22,836 --> 00:00:26,436 Speaker 1: Cover Season two is just over a month away. We're 3 00:00:26,516 --> 00:00:28,956 Speaker 1: hard at work putting it together for you. It involves 4 00:00:28,956 --> 00:00:33,356 Speaker 1: political corruption, a legendary hitman, an infamous murder trial, and 5 00:00:33,436 --> 00:00:36,276 Speaker 1: an undercover operative who's been on the run from the 6 00:00:36,356 --> 00:00:40,076 Speaker 1: Mob for decades. The moment I put the wire around 7 00:00:40,116 --> 00:00:43,356 Speaker 1: the first time, my life was over. I couldn't never 8 00:00:43,436 --> 00:00:46,996 Speaker 1: practice law anymore. I could never stay in the city anymore. 9 00:00:47,596 --> 00:00:49,716 Speaker 1: If it ever got out, they would kill me in 10 00:00:49,796 --> 00:00:56,116 Speaker 1: a heartbeat. So stay tuned for a season two of 11 00:00:56,156 --> 00:01:00,476 Speaker 1: deep Cover mob Land coming your way January twenty fourth. 12 00:01:01,196 --> 00:01:03,916 Speaker 1: In the meantime, I wanted to share a fun conversation 13 00:01:04,116 --> 00:01:06,716 Speaker 1: that takes us back to season one of deep Cover. 14 00:01:07,116 --> 00:01:09,196 Speaker 1: If you were a fan of the first season, I 15 00:01:09,196 --> 00:01:11,556 Speaker 1: think you're really going to like this behind the scenes story. 16 00:01:11,996 --> 00:01:14,556 Speaker 1: And if you haven't listened to deep Cover season one yet, 17 00:01:14,796 --> 00:01:16,796 Speaker 1: now is a great time to go back and catch 18 00:01:16,876 --> 00:01:21,076 Speaker 1: up on it. You might remember from episode one. Deep 19 00:01:21,076 --> 00:01:23,436 Speaker 1: Cover started when I got a hold of a novel. 20 00:01:23,876 --> 00:01:27,196 Speaker 1: The book had no cover, no copyright page. I mean, 21 00:01:27,556 --> 00:01:30,356 Speaker 1: not even a title or an author listed. It just 22 00:01:30,436 --> 00:01:35,596 Speaker 1: said Spring nineteen eighty two. And then it started. A 23 00:01:35,636 --> 00:01:37,956 Speaker 1: single sodium street light out on the far edge of 24 00:01:37,956 --> 00:01:41,036 Speaker 1: a parking lot, shown down on a pay phone. This, 25 00:01:41,156 --> 00:01:44,236 Speaker 1: of course, is the actor Walton Goggins, who did all 26 00:01:44,236 --> 00:01:47,476 Speaker 1: the voice over readings from Ned's novel. From that lonely 27 00:01:47,516 --> 00:01:50,356 Speaker 1: pool of light, the darkness of the parking lot reached 28 00:01:50,356 --> 00:01:52,956 Speaker 1: out a good twenty five yards before the glow of 29 00:01:53,036 --> 00:01:57,396 Speaker 1: Neon beer signs signaled the borders of another America. This 30 00:01:57,516 --> 00:02:01,876 Speaker 1: was the lawless America. This was the rebel yell. This 31 00:02:01,996 --> 00:02:05,476 Speaker 1: was easy money, fast bikes, and girls that were easier 32 00:02:05,476 --> 00:02:11,436 Speaker 1: and faster than both. Eventually, of course, I met the 33 00:02:11,436 --> 00:02:14,876 Speaker 1: guy who the novel was based on, Ned Timmins, and 34 00:02:14,916 --> 00:02:17,996 Speaker 1: he told me that this book, this novel about him, 35 00:02:18,196 --> 00:02:21,556 Speaker 1: had many different authors. Over the years, Ned worked with 36 00:02:21,556 --> 00:02:25,156 Speaker 1: at least four different writers. These were people he hired 37 00:02:25,196 --> 00:02:28,116 Speaker 1: to tell his story. What I had read apparently was 38 00:02:28,156 --> 00:02:32,116 Speaker 1: a mashup of all their efforts. Plus Ned himself worked 39 00:02:32,156 --> 00:02:34,996 Speaker 1: on it. He's still tinkering with it. In fact, if 40 00:02:34,996 --> 00:02:38,956 Speaker 1: there any book editors listening, give him a call. Anyway, 41 00:02:39,356 --> 00:02:42,796 Speaker 1: I always kind of wondered who these writers were, you know, 42 00:02:42,996 --> 00:02:46,156 Speaker 1: what their take on Ned was, Because in a way, 43 00:02:46,556 --> 00:02:49,676 Speaker 1: I kind of felt like they were my predecessors. And 44 00:02:49,716 --> 00:02:52,916 Speaker 1: then shortly after deep Cover was released, one of them 45 00:02:52,996 --> 00:02:56,636 Speaker 1: reached out to me. His name is James Coyne. He's 46 00:02:56,636 --> 00:03:00,036 Speaker 1: a screenwriter who lives out in southern California. He told 47 00:03:00,076 --> 00:03:02,476 Speaker 1: me he worked with Ned on and off over the years. 48 00:03:02,836 --> 00:03:05,716 Speaker 1: So one afternoon I called up James to hear all 49 00:03:05,756 --> 00:03:08,756 Speaker 1: about it. He started by telling me about the first 50 00:03:08,796 --> 00:03:12,916 Speaker 1: time he met Ned. I think he was much more 51 00:03:13,036 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 1: understated than I expected him to be based on the story. 52 00:03:16,316 --> 00:03:19,836 Speaker 1: You know, he's very kind of you know, he blends 53 00:03:19,956 --> 00:03:22,116 Speaker 1: right in right, it was sort of a standard Midwest 54 00:03:22,156 --> 00:03:26,396 Speaker 1: American and how he dresses and carries himself. And it's 55 00:03:26,436 --> 00:03:29,396 Speaker 1: not until you kind of see, you know, you start 56 00:03:29,396 --> 00:03:31,196 Speaker 1: looking him in the eye, that you start to sense 57 00:03:31,236 --> 00:03:34,436 Speaker 1: the depths there. But he stands out in Los Angeles 58 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:38,476 Speaker 1: for being very normal kind of Midwest American, but in 59 00:03:39,156 --> 00:03:40,956 Speaker 1: any other place in the country, you know, you'd walk 60 00:03:41,036 --> 00:03:42,756 Speaker 1: right by him in the airport and never know who 61 00:03:42,836 --> 00:03:46,756 Speaker 1: he was. It's interesting, I think, you know, so he 62 00:03:46,876 --> 00:03:50,716 Speaker 1: had gone through he had worked with other writers, and 63 00:03:50,756 --> 00:03:52,236 Speaker 1: I knew that they had kind of come before me. 64 00:03:52,316 --> 00:03:54,636 Speaker 1: I really didn't know a lot of the details. I 65 00:03:54,676 --> 00:03:57,676 Speaker 1: had seen what it turns out was an early version 66 00:03:57,676 --> 00:04:00,436 Speaker 1: of your novel. It was kind of mysterious. It didn't 67 00:04:00,476 --> 00:04:03,916 Speaker 1: even have all the pages and whatnot. But I got this. 68 00:04:04,076 --> 00:04:06,396 Speaker 1: But I did understand that this is a guy who 69 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:09,996 Speaker 1: had been trying to tell his story in one form 70 00:04:10,116 --> 00:04:13,156 Speaker 1: or another for a long time, like well over a 71 00:04:13,196 --> 00:04:16,356 Speaker 1: decade before I ever met him. I think his efforts 72 00:04:16,356 --> 00:04:18,836 Speaker 1: went back, you know, more than a decade before meeting me. 73 00:04:19,476 --> 00:04:23,276 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, because I saw I saw maybe a 74 00:04:23,436 --> 00:04:26,796 Speaker 1: chapter and a half of somebody else's work, which was 75 00:04:26,836 --> 00:04:30,116 Speaker 1: attempting to be a much more straightforward kind of um 76 00:04:30,556 --> 00:04:32,636 Speaker 1: you know piece. I can't remember the writer's name again. 77 00:04:32,676 --> 00:04:34,596 Speaker 1: It was you know, it came in a box with 78 00:04:34,676 --> 00:04:37,916 Speaker 1: you know, uh, some photographs of you know, shrunken heads, 79 00:04:37,956 --> 00:04:40,396 Speaker 1: and yeah, I think I saw the same box. We 80 00:04:40,476 --> 00:04:45,196 Speaker 1: both got the same box. So I sent the box 81 00:04:45,196 --> 00:04:46,796 Speaker 1: back to him at some point. It was it was 82 00:04:47,116 --> 00:04:50,596 Speaker 1: difficult to parse, um and didn't really have an organizational principle, 83 00:04:50,676 --> 00:04:53,276 Speaker 1: so it was it was hard to to get into. 84 00:04:53,436 --> 00:04:56,276 Speaker 1: But um, yeah, I was. I was certainly not the 85 00:04:56,276 --> 00:04:59,036 Speaker 1: first person to come in, you know. I the novel 86 00:04:59,156 --> 00:05:01,716 Speaker 1: was great, and it was it's interesting I'll share with you. 87 00:05:01,876 --> 00:05:05,276 Speaker 1: I did a first episode of the podcast without the 88 00:05:05,316 --> 00:05:10,276 Speaker 1: novel and it and it didn't quite it didn't work. 89 00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:13,556 Speaker 1: And so someone you know, and also there was like 90 00:05:13,596 --> 00:05:16,676 Speaker 1: not an obvious point of entry for me as the storyteller, 91 00:05:16,996 --> 00:05:19,356 Speaker 1: and I guess I was just telling someone how it 92 00:05:19,356 --> 00:05:22,396 Speaker 1: had come onto my radar, and I started talking about 93 00:05:22,396 --> 00:05:25,596 Speaker 1: the novel, and then someone said, why don't you just 94 00:05:25,796 --> 00:05:27,916 Speaker 1: say that, like you know, it's like, why don't you 95 00:05:27,916 --> 00:05:30,316 Speaker 1: just tell like the like the way it really began 96 00:05:30,476 --> 00:05:33,556 Speaker 1: and the most obvious point of entry. So then I said, okay, 97 00:05:33,596 --> 00:05:34,996 Speaker 1: I start telling the story of the novel. And then 98 00:05:35,036 --> 00:05:38,036 Speaker 1: we started reading it. I realized the novel was so 99 00:05:38,156 --> 00:05:42,996 Speaker 1: great because it was this one version of Ned, like 100 00:05:43,076 --> 00:05:45,956 Speaker 1: in a way, we all have the novel version of ourselves, 101 00:05:46,076 --> 00:05:48,916 Speaker 1: right like I have it, you have it. We all 102 00:05:48,956 --> 00:05:51,196 Speaker 1: have like the kind of you know, the way we 103 00:05:51,196 --> 00:05:54,916 Speaker 1: would like to see ourselves. And so and this was 104 00:05:54,996 --> 00:05:58,196 Speaker 1: just actually written out in novel form, and so it 105 00:05:58,316 --> 00:06:00,516 Speaker 1: ended up being like an important part of like the 106 00:06:00,596 --> 00:06:03,796 Speaker 1: layering of who of who Ned was. And it's clear 107 00:06:04,116 --> 00:06:06,036 Speaker 1: it was clear to me that that you would spend 108 00:06:06,036 --> 00:06:07,636 Speaker 1: a lot of time getting to know this guy and 109 00:06:07,916 --> 00:06:11,756 Speaker 1: also kind of channeling his voice. How how did you 110 00:06:12,356 --> 00:06:16,356 Speaker 1: channel his voice? Because you know, having spent a lot 111 00:06:16,396 --> 00:06:19,036 Speaker 1: of time with Ned, the voice in the novel often 112 00:06:19,076 --> 00:06:21,716 Speaker 1: does sound exactly like him. We're using tape recordings, you're 113 00:06:21,716 --> 00:06:24,076 Speaker 1: taking notes. How were you doing it? For me? The 114 00:06:24,196 --> 00:06:27,636 Speaker 1: joy of listening to Ned and and and hearing these 115 00:06:27,636 --> 00:06:30,756 Speaker 1: stories and and you know, the sort of there's a 116 00:06:30,796 --> 00:06:33,836 Speaker 1: there's a deep aspect of wish fulfillment in what Ned did, 117 00:06:34,076 --> 00:06:36,876 Speaker 1: right that from a certain point of view, right like 118 00:06:36,996 --> 00:06:40,476 Speaker 1: you know that you know he's he's like, he's like 119 00:06:40,476 --> 00:06:43,156 Speaker 1: tell me out of a Walter Hill screenplay, right Like 120 00:06:43,356 --> 00:06:48,036 Speaker 1: there's a you can you can feel the movie. You're right, 121 00:06:48,156 --> 00:06:50,156 Speaker 1: you know, Chimmans, I want your patche and your gun 122 00:06:50,156 --> 00:06:53,076 Speaker 1: on my desk, right like, you know, there's a um 123 00:06:53,116 --> 00:06:55,756 Speaker 1: And so I think for me in getting into writing 124 00:06:55,756 --> 00:06:58,356 Speaker 1: the book, and what was so much fun about writing 125 00:06:58,356 --> 00:07:01,116 Speaker 1: the book was was breathing into that aspect of the 126 00:07:01,156 --> 00:07:05,116 Speaker 1: wish fulfillment that is inherent to Ned's story anyway. And 127 00:07:05,196 --> 00:07:07,836 Speaker 1: so if I adopted some of his language, or if 128 00:07:07,836 --> 00:07:10,156 Speaker 1: I subconsciously picked up up on some of his tone, 129 00:07:10,516 --> 00:07:13,196 Speaker 1: I think that's just kind of naturally part of my process. 130 00:07:13,436 --> 00:07:16,636 Speaker 1: You know, I think everything I write sort of tends 131 00:07:16,676 --> 00:07:18,836 Speaker 1: to have the tone of what it wants to be. 132 00:07:19,756 --> 00:07:22,636 Speaker 1: You try to find a tone that suits the material. 133 00:07:22,796 --> 00:07:25,036 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, Ned provided all of that 134 00:07:25,156 --> 00:07:28,476 Speaker 1: over he and I spending so many years together talking 135 00:07:28,516 --> 00:07:31,116 Speaker 1: about these things. You know, I love that you were 136 00:07:31,116 --> 00:07:33,636 Speaker 1: fascinated by the pig. You know that one of the 137 00:07:33,636 --> 00:07:36,276 Speaker 1: screenplays opens on the pig with the mush, with it 138 00:07:36,316 --> 00:07:39,996 Speaker 1: being fed the meth up onions, because that was just 139 00:07:40,036 --> 00:07:42,516 Speaker 1: such an amazing image, and you're like, I got see 140 00:07:42,556 --> 00:07:47,036 Speaker 1: that fucking pig on screen. The pig was great. Oh, 141 00:07:47,076 --> 00:07:50,396 Speaker 1: the pig's amazing. There's a big field and there's mountains 142 00:07:50,436 --> 00:07:57,836 Speaker 1: up each side, and there's some hillbility there at the gate, 143 00:07:58,756 --> 00:08:01,596 Speaker 1: and he meets us and gets as soon as gate 144 00:08:01,636 --> 00:08:03,916 Speaker 1: and it's you know, it's just a two track sage 145 00:08:03,916 --> 00:08:10,476 Speaker 1: brush cactus and just high mountain desert and we're getting 146 00:08:10,476 --> 00:08:15,276 Speaker 1: near the barn and outcomes this freaking five hundred pound pig, 147 00:08:16,596 --> 00:08:20,556 Speaker 1: I mean, a big pig. And he said, what the 148 00:08:20,596 --> 00:08:23,436 Speaker 1: fuck is it? You know that's the guard hogs. What mean? 149 00:08:24,116 --> 00:08:26,836 Speaker 1: He said, well, he smells people if they're you know, 150 00:08:26,996 --> 00:08:29,156 Speaker 1: and the mountains are trying to survey us or whatever hills. 151 00:08:29,476 --> 00:08:31,076 Speaker 1: And that's true a pig. He has one of the 152 00:08:31,076 --> 00:08:35,276 Speaker 1: best noses in the world. What really surprised Ned is 153 00:08:35,316 --> 00:08:38,756 Speaker 1: what these hillbillies are feeding their prized guard pig. They'd 154 00:08:38,796 --> 00:08:43,276 Speaker 1: soak a bug onion, sweet onion and math and throw 155 00:08:43,276 --> 00:08:44,716 Speaker 1: it to the pig. The pig lollved it. I mean, 156 00:08:44,996 --> 00:08:47,996 Speaker 1: he's like, you know, he wanted he wanted a fucking onion, 157 00:08:48,476 --> 00:08:51,556 Speaker 1: and you know, I didn't really trust him because he's 158 00:08:51,556 --> 00:08:54,556 Speaker 1: really fucking big and he's got tossling shit. And this 159 00:08:54,956 --> 00:08:58,316 Speaker 1: was Ned's life now, sneaking past a drugged up pig. 160 00:08:59,356 --> 00:09:01,796 Speaker 1: What a detail. What was really interesting is that the 161 00:09:01,836 --> 00:09:04,276 Speaker 1: moments you chose to use some excerpts from the book 162 00:09:04,676 --> 00:09:07,116 Speaker 1: and with the music, is that what what what I 163 00:09:07,236 --> 00:09:10,516 Speaker 1: found is that all of a sudden, like some part 164 00:09:10,556 --> 00:09:14,396 Speaker 1: of the story became very real and alive in a 165 00:09:14,436 --> 00:09:17,476 Speaker 1: way that you know, sort of the more journalistic approach 166 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:21,356 Speaker 1: can get distant, right, like you can feel a step 167 00:09:21,396 --> 00:09:25,756 Speaker 1: removed when somebody is as clinically accurate as you were being. 168 00:09:26,236 --> 00:09:28,596 Speaker 1: And yet somehow when the music and the story and 169 00:09:28,636 --> 00:09:32,116 Speaker 1: all of that comes, it starts to become alive in 170 00:09:32,156 --> 00:09:35,476 Speaker 1: a way that I think nonfiction has a much harder 171 00:09:35,516 --> 00:09:38,716 Speaker 1: time being than fiction. No, And I'm so glad that 172 00:09:38,756 --> 00:09:41,676 Speaker 1: we got Walter Goggins to read it because originally, in 173 00:09:41,716 --> 00:09:44,596 Speaker 1: just early versions, I was reading it and it didn't 174 00:09:44,596 --> 00:09:48,196 Speaker 1: have the same effect because you really wanted it to 175 00:09:48,316 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 1: have kind of a distinct voice, and like, it was 176 00:09:51,356 --> 00:09:53,476 Speaker 1: just much more effective to have it removed from me. 177 00:09:53,996 --> 00:09:57,876 Speaker 1: He's fantastic. They'll kill us, Bruce, we fuck up and 178 00:09:57,956 --> 00:10:01,156 Speaker 1: they'll kill us. You understand, no one will even find 179 00:10:01,156 --> 00:10:03,916 Speaker 1: the bodies to shoot us and stuck us in a 180 00:10:03,956 --> 00:10:06,756 Speaker 1: Vada ascid of some shit. You have any idea how 181 00:10:06,756 --> 00:10:10,836 Speaker 1: fucking dangerous this shit is? I nodded, but Toby grabbed 182 00:10:10,876 --> 00:10:13,676 Speaker 1: him by the arm leaned in close, close enough he 183 00:10:13,676 --> 00:10:17,476 Speaker 1: could smell the ether, the cigarettes and the bo do you, brothers? 184 00:10:18,156 --> 00:10:21,116 Speaker 1: You fucking better because it's me and you out there, danglin, 185 00:10:21,676 --> 00:10:25,636 Speaker 1: right over the goddamn edge. Let me go back to 186 00:10:25,636 --> 00:10:27,636 Speaker 1: a question that I was getting at earlier, which is 187 00:10:27,676 --> 00:10:30,556 Speaker 1: that so you start working with them, and you're saying 188 00:10:30,556 --> 00:10:32,996 Speaker 1: that maybe as much as a decade before that, he 189 00:10:33,076 --> 00:10:36,596 Speaker 1: was working on telling the story, which seems possible to me, 190 00:10:38,076 --> 00:10:42,956 Speaker 1: which begs this bigger question of why was it so 191 00:10:42,996 --> 00:10:46,076 Speaker 1: important to Ned to tell the story? He went to 192 00:10:46,276 --> 00:10:50,756 Speaker 1: enormous trouble and enormous expense over decades to do it, 193 00:10:50,836 --> 00:10:54,636 Speaker 1: which is just really unusual. What was driving that? Why 194 00:10:54,716 --> 00:10:57,996 Speaker 1: was it so important to him? Do you not sense 195 00:10:58,116 --> 00:11:03,476 Speaker 1: from him that he wants a certain validation for his 196 00:11:03,556 --> 00:11:07,876 Speaker 1: role in this and that he did feel somewhat sidelined 197 00:11:07,916 --> 00:11:11,956 Speaker 1: and forgotten in an investigation that took so much from 198 00:11:12,036 --> 00:11:15,796 Speaker 1: him and cost him so much personally and professionally, that 199 00:11:15,996 --> 00:11:19,516 Speaker 1: somehow it would all be okay if if the story 200 00:11:19,596 --> 00:11:21,516 Speaker 1: was out there in the world and that he got 201 00:11:21,556 --> 00:11:27,076 Speaker 1: the credit and recognition that he felt he was due. Yes, yeah, no, 202 00:11:27,236 --> 00:11:29,236 Speaker 1: I think that's right. I think there's some of that. 203 00:11:29,356 --> 00:11:31,796 Speaker 1: And then I think, too he gets like, you know, 204 00:11:31,916 --> 00:11:35,276 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people around him say, holy shit, 205 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:37,316 Speaker 1: this should be a movie, Holy shit, this should be 206 00:11:37,356 --> 00:11:39,756 Speaker 1: a book. You know, like, this is incredible, what a story? 207 00:11:39,876 --> 00:11:42,556 Speaker 1: You know, why doesn't anyone know this? And you know, 208 00:11:42,596 --> 00:11:44,556 Speaker 1: how many times do you hear that before you start 209 00:11:44,556 --> 00:11:47,716 Speaker 1: to think to yourself, you know, they're probably right. So 210 00:11:47,716 --> 00:11:50,636 Speaker 1: so what is he hired you to write the like? 211 00:11:50,716 --> 00:11:53,076 Speaker 1: How did that work? He had he had hired me 212 00:11:53,116 --> 00:11:58,196 Speaker 1: to work on the scripts, and then when we had 213 00:11:58,276 --> 00:12:00,596 Speaker 1: kind of hit the wall, he approached me about doing 214 00:12:00,596 --> 00:12:02,956 Speaker 1: a book. So just to be clear here, it starts off. 215 00:12:03,436 --> 00:12:06,476 Speaker 1: It starts off as you writing this script. So he 216 00:12:06,556 --> 00:12:08,996 Speaker 1: hired you initially to write a script for a future 217 00:12:09,116 --> 00:12:14,476 Speaker 1: and correct correct, which I did, you know again many 218 00:12:14,476 --> 00:12:16,996 Speaker 1: many versions of and worked with some pretty high level 219 00:12:16,996 --> 00:12:20,196 Speaker 1: people to get into a good position. And uh, you know, 220 00:12:20,276 --> 00:12:25,316 Speaker 1: I think the issue where our story kind of hit 221 00:12:25,356 --> 00:12:28,436 Speaker 1: a brick wall in Hollywood especially was, you know, it's 222 00:12:28,596 --> 00:12:32,236 Speaker 1: it's difficult with marijuana, right like, you know, these guys 223 00:12:32,236 --> 00:12:34,876 Speaker 1: are bringing in hundreds of thousands of pounds of marijuana, 224 00:12:34,916 --> 00:12:37,636 Speaker 1: They're doing billions of dollars worth of business. But it's 225 00:12:37,436 --> 00:12:41,756 Speaker 1: it's just it's an inherently less threatening drug than you know, 226 00:12:41,796 --> 00:12:44,716 Speaker 1: if if these guys have been importing, you know, bargeloads 227 00:12:44,756 --> 00:12:47,716 Speaker 1: of cocaine, you know, this story would I think have 228 00:12:47,756 --> 00:12:50,716 Speaker 1: been a movie ten years ago, because cocaine is somehow 229 00:12:50,756 --> 00:12:53,996 Speaker 1: so much more. You know, it's it's bigger, it's sexier, 230 00:12:54,036 --> 00:12:56,196 Speaker 1: it's more dangerous. You can turn it into crack and 231 00:12:56,276 --> 00:12:59,716 Speaker 1: ruin an entire community, right you know, you can, you know, 232 00:12:59,796 --> 00:13:02,236 Speaker 1: you can let loose the shitload of marijuana on an 233 00:13:02,316 --> 00:13:04,756 Speaker 1: entire community, and you know, fast food sales go up, right, 234 00:13:04,796 --> 00:13:07,116 Speaker 1: It's just not It just doesn't have the same impact 235 00:13:08,316 --> 00:13:11,116 Speaker 1: as as some of the dirty or nasty or drugs 236 00:13:11,116 --> 00:13:13,596 Speaker 1: that are out there. And I think that that really 237 00:13:13,756 --> 00:13:16,956 Speaker 1: harmed our ability to market the story. That's fascinating. Did 238 00:13:17,116 --> 00:13:20,276 Speaker 1: did did they? Were you told that explicitly we're people 239 00:13:20,316 --> 00:13:24,476 Speaker 1: going back to producers? Or I yeah, I heard that 240 00:13:24,516 --> 00:13:28,076 Speaker 1: explicitly in meetings. You know, could we could we up 241 00:13:28,076 --> 00:13:31,756 Speaker 1: the cocaine factor? You know, it's like, wow, not really right, like, 242 00:13:31,796 --> 00:13:35,756 Speaker 1: you know, if we're being honest to the story. After 243 00:13:35,796 --> 00:13:50,876 Speaker 1: the break, more on my conversation with James. Do you 244 00:13:50,876 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 1: guys then come up with a whose idea is it 245 00:13:52,836 --> 00:13:54,876 Speaker 1: to write a novel? You know, I think it was 246 00:13:54,956 --> 00:13:58,396 Speaker 1: Ned who came to me with that idea, and it 247 00:13:58,476 --> 00:14:01,356 Speaker 1: says like, let's just turn this into a book, or yeah, 248 00:14:01,436 --> 00:14:02,996 Speaker 1: let's turn this into a book. You know the story 249 00:14:03,036 --> 00:14:05,836 Speaker 1: better than anyone else at this point, you know, I 250 00:14:05,916 --> 00:14:09,276 Speaker 1: like you, you know, um, you know, what could you 251 00:14:09,356 --> 00:14:12,156 Speaker 1: what could we possibly do this for financially? And I 252 00:14:12,196 --> 00:14:13,956 Speaker 1: sort of looked at, you know, where I was and 253 00:14:14,316 --> 00:14:16,076 Speaker 1: what I was doing, and I said, you know, look, 254 00:14:16,076 --> 00:14:18,276 Speaker 1: I can give you about twelve weeks, right, and so 255 00:14:18,516 --> 00:14:19,996 Speaker 1: this is what I need to live for the next 256 00:14:19,996 --> 00:14:22,356 Speaker 1: twelve weeks, and if you can afford that, then I'll 257 00:14:22,356 --> 00:14:26,516 Speaker 1: write you the book. You wrote that book in twelve weeks. Yes, 258 00:14:27,796 --> 00:14:32,636 Speaker 1: that's crazy. That's like a full length novel and pretty 259 00:14:32,636 --> 00:14:35,836 Speaker 1: good shape. Well yeah, and that's well you have you 260 00:14:35,876 --> 00:14:39,556 Speaker 1: have the much bridge version. My first draft was I 261 00:14:39,596 --> 00:14:41,756 Speaker 1: think somewhere in the neighborhood of eighty five to ninety 262 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:44,156 Speaker 1: thousand words. So you're working on the book when he's 263 00:14:44,236 --> 00:14:47,756 Speaker 1: when you're going over these like what do you like? 264 00:14:47,916 --> 00:14:50,036 Speaker 1: What do you make of the stories? For example that 265 00:14:50,196 --> 00:14:53,436 Speaker 1: he tells you about Toby, For example, I was Toby 266 00:14:53,556 --> 00:14:57,276 Speaker 1: was a character that fascinated me. I couldn't actually talk 267 00:14:57,316 --> 00:14:59,676 Speaker 1: to him because he had passed away, as you know, 268 00:14:59,676 --> 00:15:03,996 Speaker 1: I talked to his son. I remember writing the motorcycles 269 00:15:03,996 --> 00:15:05,676 Speaker 1: with them with me on the back. He was just 270 00:15:05,796 --> 00:15:08,236 Speaker 1: kind of reckless and dangeroed. I was screaming holding on 271 00:15:08,316 --> 00:15:11,876 Speaker 1: for dear life, right, and he just thought it was funny. Um, 272 00:15:11,996 --> 00:15:16,396 Speaker 1: But that was him. It's he wasn't There wasn't anything 273 00:15:16,436 --> 00:15:22,716 Speaker 1: that that that he was afraid of nothing, nothing. What 274 00:15:22,796 --> 00:15:26,236 Speaker 1: was your take on I'm Toby. Well, you know, unlike you, 275 00:15:26,356 --> 00:15:28,796 Speaker 1: it was entirely through Ned's eyes, right, you know, for me, 276 00:15:28,836 --> 00:15:31,196 Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff was about like, you know, okay, 277 00:15:31,196 --> 00:15:34,556 Speaker 1: so Ned's given me some really. Ned has these great details, 278 00:15:34,636 --> 00:15:39,436 Speaker 1: amazing and the way he has tagged these details to people, 279 00:15:40,156 --> 00:15:43,716 Speaker 1: uh is a very natural storyteller's kind of instinct. Right. 280 00:15:43,916 --> 00:15:46,036 Speaker 1: You know, in a different world, Ned would be a 281 00:15:46,076 --> 00:15:49,716 Speaker 1: great screenwriter because of how he sort of sees detail 282 00:15:49,756 --> 00:15:52,756 Speaker 1: in people and what he chooses to associate with them. 283 00:15:53,236 --> 00:15:55,836 Speaker 1: I would ask him, especially early in the process, right, 284 00:15:55,876 --> 00:15:57,916 Speaker 1: you know, he's taking all these amazing risks and he's 285 00:15:57,956 --> 00:16:01,676 Speaker 1: you know, he's spending months and months, you know, stinking 286 00:16:01,716 --> 00:16:03,916 Speaker 1: like a biker and hanging out with these assholes who 287 00:16:03,956 --> 00:16:07,076 Speaker 1: clearly he doesn't like, you know, and uh and and 288 00:16:07,076 --> 00:16:10,516 Speaker 1: and putting himself in danger and wrecking his family for 289 00:16:10,556 --> 00:16:14,356 Speaker 1: this case. Right and why? Right? Like why what was 290 00:16:14,436 --> 00:16:17,796 Speaker 1: the what was the driving motivation? Again? If you think 291 00:16:17,836 --> 00:16:21,156 Speaker 1: about if you if you said to if you said 292 00:16:21,156 --> 00:16:22,676 Speaker 1: to me, you know, James, you know, I want you 293 00:16:22,676 --> 00:16:24,076 Speaker 1: to be a hero, and I want you to take 294 00:16:24,116 --> 00:16:26,596 Speaker 1: these drugs off the streets, right, you know, you go, Okay, 295 00:16:26,956 --> 00:16:29,036 Speaker 1: I can. I can buy into that on some level, 296 00:16:29,476 --> 00:16:31,596 Speaker 1: But what was the what was the reason that you 297 00:16:31,636 --> 00:16:35,396 Speaker 1: were so devoted to doing this and so willing to 298 00:16:35,476 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, dig as deep as you did. 299 00:16:38,196 --> 00:16:40,876 Speaker 1: And I could never get a straight answer right like 300 00:16:40,916 --> 00:16:44,196 Speaker 1: it was, there was never a satisfactory kind of response 301 00:16:44,236 --> 00:16:48,556 Speaker 1: from Ned in any of that. Years go by and 302 00:16:48,756 --> 00:16:51,036 Speaker 1: I had flown out to Michigan to do sort of 303 00:16:51,036 --> 00:16:53,716 Speaker 1: my last round of interviews with him before getting started 304 00:16:53,756 --> 00:16:56,116 Speaker 1: on the book. And at that time he had a 305 00:16:56,156 --> 00:16:59,636 Speaker 1: home in the northern part of the Lower Peninsula, Uh, 306 00:16:59,756 --> 00:17:02,956 Speaker 1: this beautiful hunting cabin that he has um and he 307 00:17:03,036 --> 00:17:05,596 Speaker 1: took me around the whole property, and he had done 308 00:17:05,636 --> 00:17:08,676 Speaker 1: things like um, you know, like the woods had been 309 00:17:08,756 --> 00:17:11,836 Speaker 1: clear in these fairways almost like a golf course, and 310 00:17:11,876 --> 00:17:15,116 Speaker 1: then he would plant all of these different herbs and 311 00:17:15,236 --> 00:17:20,036 Speaker 1: flowers and seeds that would be perfect for deer. So 312 00:17:20,076 --> 00:17:21,796 Speaker 1: the deer would come out of the cover of the 313 00:17:22,516 --> 00:17:25,196 Speaker 1: woods and into these places that are basically like a 314 00:17:25,196 --> 00:17:28,596 Speaker 1: Schmoger's board for them, a buffet all you can eat 315 00:17:28,596 --> 00:17:31,676 Speaker 1: of their most favorite plants, and they'd be completely exposed 316 00:17:31,716 --> 00:17:33,396 Speaker 1: while they were eating them, and there'd be a little 317 00:17:33,476 --> 00:17:35,596 Speaker 1: hide built down at the other end of the fairway 318 00:17:36,036 --> 00:17:37,996 Speaker 1: so a hunter could kill the deer if they wanted to. 319 00:17:38,436 --> 00:17:41,956 Speaker 1: It was a hunter's paradise. And inside the lodge, which was, 320 00:17:42,076 --> 00:17:44,556 Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to be conservative and say it 321 00:17:44,596 --> 00:17:47,676 Speaker 1: was a five thousand square foot home, he had a 322 00:17:47,796 --> 00:17:50,916 Speaker 1: taxidermy of almost anything that has ever taken a breath 323 00:17:50,956 --> 00:17:55,196 Speaker 1: that you could shoot at. The bears, dozens of them, 324 00:17:55,236 --> 00:17:57,956 Speaker 1: these creatures with you know, beautiful horns that had killed 325 00:17:57,956 --> 00:18:02,356 Speaker 1: in Africa, lions, you know, just if he could kill it, 326 00:18:02,396 --> 00:18:04,836 Speaker 1: he had shot it. And I got up to Pea 327 00:18:04,876 --> 00:18:06,916 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night and it was like, 328 00:18:07,036 --> 00:18:08,676 Speaker 1: you know, it's like a horror film, like a Frank 329 00:18:08,716 --> 00:18:10,796 Speaker 1: Osman movie, right, like where these things are kind of 330 00:18:10,796 --> 00:18:13,716 Speaker 1: going to come alive in the darkness because every squares 331 00:18:13,716 --> 00:18:16,436 Speaker 1: surf at some point, like a bat had fucking died 332 00:18:16,436 --> 00:18:18,196 Speaker 1: in the gutter. And he had a taxi journey as 333 00:18:18,196 --> 00:18:21,036 Speaker 1: a joke, right. It was, it was, it was, it was, 334 00:18:21,116 --> 00:18:23,956 Speaker 1: you know, it was beyond creepy, it really was. And 335 00:18:24,356 --> 00:18:28,396 Speaker 1: what I suddenly realized is that this was why Ned 336 00:18:28,436 --> 00:18:31,156 Speaker 1: was an FBI agent, right That badge was his hunting 337 00:18:31,196 --> 00:18:35,116 Speaker 1: license for his favorite thing. To hunt, which is human beings. 338 00:18:35,196 --> 00:18:37,956 Speaker 1: And starting from the youngest age, some of his earliest memories, 339 00:18:38,036 --> 00:18:41,036 Speaker 1: Ned will tell you that his granddad would let him 340 00:18:41,116 --> 00:18:43,356 Speaker 1: stand up in a backpack while they would go out 341 00:18:43,396 --> 00:18:47,516 Speaker 1: bird hunting, right, Like, you know, Ned's very earliest memories 342 00:18:47,636 --> 00:18:51,516 Speaker 1: are you know, hunting. Wow. And the thing that you 343 00:18:51,556 --> 00:18:55,116 Speaker 1: know that being an FBI agent really meant to Ned 344 00:18:55,156 --> 00:18:57,836 Speaker 1: was this opportunity to go out and hunt the most 345 00:18:57,876 --> 00:19:02,076 Speaker 1: intelligent and the most dangerous animal on earth. And when 346 00:19:02,076 --> 00:19:04,996 Speaker 1: you listen to how he talks about the people that 347 00:19:05,076 --> 00:19:07,516 Speaker 1: he would, you know, go out and get right. What 348 00:19:07,596 --> 00:19:09,556 Speaker 1: are the words that you've heard one hundred times out 349 00:19:09,596 --> 00:19:11,876 Speaker 1: and as all, this guy's a killer. How many times 350 00:19:11,916 --> 00:19:14,436 Speaker 1: have you heard that? Yeah? That's he loves that. Yeah, yeah, 351 00:19:14,516 --> 00:19:18,036 Speaker 1: But I agree with you, you know, it's interesting. I 352 00:19:18,076 --> 00:19:21,396 Speaker 1: think it's insightful, and I agree that there's the challenge 353 00:19:21,396 --> 00:19:25,196 Speaker 1: of it as the hunter. But he also has this 354 00:19:25,676 --> 00:19:29,076 Speaker 1: side of him that he befriends these guys um you know, 355 00:19:29,396 --> 00:19:32,556 Speaker 1: Lee Rich being one of them. But also there was 356 00:19:32,596 --> 00:19:35,956 Speaker 1: a biker that I met that you describe in the 357 00:19:35,996 --> 00:19:38,916 Speaker 1: novel Who Who knew Toby who remains close to to 358 00:19:38,996 --> 00:19:41,516 Speaker 1: this day. I think he is he does have that 359 00:19:41,596 --> 00:19:45,396 Speaker 1: hunting instinct, but simultaneously he also some of these guys 360 00:19:45,556 --> 00:19:49,956 Speaker 1: he seems to form like a really intense and lasting 361 00:19:50,556 --> 00:19:54,436 Speaker 1: bond with um that's somewhat but only after he's only 362 00:19:54,476 --> 00:19:56,636 Speaker 1: after he's bagged him. You know, it's like now their 363 00:19:56,756 --> 00:19:59,036 Speaker 1: you know, their teeth have been pulled, their their declaude. 364 00:19:59,076 --> 00:20:01,996 Speaker 1: You know, I I you know, it's not a perfect metaphor, 365 00:20:01,996 --> 00:20:04,396 Speaker 1: and it never could be, but you know, I don't 366 00:20:04,796 --> 00:20:07,316 Speaker 1: I think there's a deep humanity to Ned. I don't 367 00:20:07,316 --> 00:20:09,236 Speaker 1: say that to say that he's some sort of sociopath 368 00:20:09,236 --> 00:20:10,796 Speaker 1: who just likes to go out and kill people or 369 00:20:10,956 --> 00:20:13,636 Speaker 1: hunt them down, but that the thrill of the chase 370 00:20:13,716 --> 00:20:16,996 Speaker 1: is the is everything to him. You know, even after 371 00:20:17,036 --> 00:20:19,516 Speaker 1: he leaves the FBI, he you know, there's that whole 372 00:20:19,916 --> 00:20:22,996 Speaker 1: second chapter of his you know, work in Columbia that 373 00:20:23,196 --> 00:20:27,596 Speaker 1: was you know, fascinating and done almost without any kind 374 00:20:27,596 --> 00:20:30,276 Speaker 1: of supervision or the ages and protection of any kind 375 00:20:30,276 --> 00:20:33,156 Speaker 1: of an agency. That he was working freelance because he 376 00:20:33,196 --> 00:20:35,916 Speaker 1: was so hooked on that adrenaline rush that he had 377 00:20:35,916 --> 00:20:38,516 Speaker 1: been you know, living for all of those years. Yeah, 378 00:20:38,596 --> 00:20:40,476 Speaker 1: if there's a part two of this, like you know, 379 00:20:40,516 --> 00:20:42,436 Speaker 1: we said that the novel ended it in kind of 380 00:20:42,196 --> 00:20:46,076 Speaker 1: a cliffhanger, with the woman showing up and saying, you know, 381 00:20:46,396 --> 00:20:48,676 Speaker 1: I need your help. I have someone down in Columbia 382 00:20:48,676 --> 00:20:52,436 Speaker 1: who's in trouble. What is that kind of the elevator 383 00:20:52,436 --> 00:20:55,636 Speaker 1: pitch for that sequel. Ned did go to Columbia to 384 00:20:55,676 --> 00:20:58,516 Speaker 1: start a fishing business after he left the FBI, and 385 00:20:58,556 --> 00:21:00,596 Speaker 1: once he gets down there, he ends up doing a 386 00:21:00,636 --> 00:21:04,756 Speaker 1: lot of sort of contract work for customs and sort 387 00:21:04,796 --> 00:21:08,796 Speaker 1: of falls very naturally back into being an FBI agent again, 388 00:21:09,476 --> 00:21:14,316 Speaker 1: or rather an undercover operative again, and is bombed at 389 00:21:14,316 --> 00:21:17,916 Speaker 1: the Hilton. He tells this amazing story of being out 390 00:21:17,916 --> 00:21:21,076 Speaker 1: on this little island off the coast of Columbia where 391 00:21:21,076 --> 00:21:22,796 Speaker 1: the bugs were so intense at night that you had 392 00:21:22,836 --> 00:21:24,516 Speaker 1: to like go to sleep in a hammock wearing a 393 00:21:24,516 --> 00:21:27,356 Speaker 1: wetsuit and uh and cover your face with a towel 394 00:21:27,436 --> 00:21:30,516 Speaker 1: so that bugs couldn't eat you. There was there was 395 00:21:30,556 --> 00:21:33,356 Speaker 1: a lot of detail in that post FBI part of 396 00:21:33,476 --> 00:21:37,396 Speaker 1: Ned's life which was really really interesting, and because it was, 397 00:21:37,636 --> 00:21:42,116 Speaker 1: you know, being done under his own auspices was infinitely 398 00:21:42,156 --> 00:21:44,756 Speaker 1: more dangerous and I think he must have reached a 399 00:21:44,796 --> 00:21:48,076 Speaker 1: point where, you know, what you and I would consider danger, 400 00:21:48,556 --> 00:21:51,076 Speaker 1: wouldn't even you know, wouldn't even get his heart rate up, 401 00:21:51,196 --> 00:21:54,916 Speaker 1: and he you know, I think that the adrenaline hit 402 00:21:55,116 --> 00:21:57,836 Speaker 1: that he was looking for was was probably going to 403 00:21:57,916 --> 00:22:00,156 Speaker 1: take him to get and killed down there until you know, 404 00:22:00,196 --> 00:22:02,796 Speaker 1: he kind of gets his ship together. And I thought 405 00:22:02,796 --> 00:22:04,716 Speaker 1: that would have made a very interesting follow up to 406 00:22:04,756 --> 00:22:07,076 Speaker 1: the first book. Is there anything else that I that 407 00:22:07,156 --> 00:22:10,676 Speaker 1: I didn't ask that you thinks worth mentioning, or that 408 00:22:10,716 --> 00:22:13,276 Speaker 1: occurred to you, you know, in the last little bit 409 00:22:13,316 --> 00:22:15,836 Speaker 1: while you heard the podcast or afterwards. I think the 410 00:22:16,516 --> 00:22:18,996 Speaker 1: thing that I found just so wonderful about the podcast 411 00:22:19,196 --> 00:22:23,476 Speaker 1: was the way you really dug in and went past 412 00:22:23,516 --> 00:22:27,476 Speaker 1: those those blocks that I never did. I'm so gratified 413 00:22:27,516 --> 00:22:29,716 Speaker 1: that I kind of get some of the answers on 414 00:22:29,756 --> 00:22:32,076 Speaker 1: a story that you know, I lived with so intimately 415 00:22:32,156 --> 00:22:34,836 Speaker 1: for so very long, three drafts of a script and 416 00:22:34,956 --> 00:22:38,676 Speaker 1: a novel. Is you know that's that's six eight months 417 00:22:38,676 --> 00:22:40,796 Speaker 1: out of my life spent, you know, in Ned's head. 418 00:22:40,956 --> 00:22:44,316 Speaker 1: To finally kind of see the larger perspective that you 419 00:22:44,436 --> 00:22:48,276 Speaker 1: delivered was intensely gratifying to me. I was able to to, 420 00:22:48,596 --> 00:22:52,116 Speaker 1: you know, kind of turn off any personal ego issues 421 00:22:52,236 --> 00:22:55,236 Speaker 1: and uh and and really just enjoy what you did. 422 00:22:55,396 --> 00:22:58,156 Speaker 1: So I thank you for that. Well, I mean, likewise, 423 00:22:58,236 --> 00:23:01,036 Speaker 1: I feel I feel grateful to you. I mean, I 424 00:23:01,556 --> 00:23:04,316 Speaker 1: it was the novel that that that drew me into 425 00:23:04,316 --> 00:23:06,356 Speaker 1: this story, and and as again as I said to 426 00:23:06,356 --> 00:23:12,276 Speaker 1: you earlier, I felt like it was just a faithful 427 00:23:12,476 --> 00:23:16,396 Speaker 1: and kind of almost uncanny channeling of Ned's psyche. There 428 00:23:16,396 --> 00:23:18,116 Speaker 1: were times I was working on the story and I 429 00:23:19,316 --> 00:23:21,676 Speaker 1: had thousands of pain I mean, the amount of transcripts 430 00:23:21,676 --> 00:23:23,756 Speaker 1: I have is crazy. But often when I want to 431 00:23:23,836 --> 00:23:25,916 Speaker 1: try to really get a sense of how Ned thought 432 00:23:25,916 --> 00:23:29,076 Speaker 1: about something, I would go to the novel. And I 433 00:23:29,076 --> 00:23:30,716 Speaker 1: think that's just a reflection of the fact that you 434 00:23:30,836 --> 00:23:33,196 Speaker 1: spent so much time talking to him and thinking about 435 00:23:33,316 --> 00:23:36,396 Speaker 1: him and kind of channeling his character. I was very 436 00:23:36,436 --> 00:23:40,236 Speaker 1: much appreciative to have it and to get a chance 437 00:23:40,276 --> 00:23:42,076 Speaker 1: to talk with you. Well, this has been a real 438 00:23:42,116 --> 00:23:46,236 Speaker 1: pleasure for me as well. After my talk with James, 439 00:23:46,436 --> 00:23:48,836 Speaker 1: I kept thinking back to what he said about Ned's 440 00:23:48,916 --> 00:23:52,756 Speaker 1: hunting lodge and the rows and rows of taxidermied animals. 441 00:23:53,316 --> 00:23:55,956 Speaker 1: That's all true. By the way, Ned told me. There 442 00:23:55,996 --> 00:24:00,676 Speaker 1: were eleven bears, two moose, two mountain lions, three caribou, 443 00:24:00,996 --> 00:24:05,476 Speaker 1: two Arctic wolves, five to six deer, and seventeen assorted 444 00:24:05,516 --> 00:24:08,676 Speaker 1: animals from a hunting trip in Africa. And that's just 445 00:24:08,716 --> 00:24:12,516 Speaker 1: to name a few he sent pictures. Actually, imagine the 446 00:24:12,596 --> 00:24:15,876 Speaker 1: Museum of Natural History in New York City, only a 447 00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:19,436 Speaker 1: lot more crowded. So look, I get why James picked 448 00:24:19,516 --> 00:24:22,396 Speaker 1: up on this, why he saw Ned as the hunter. 449 00:24:23,076 --> 00:24:26,156 Speaker 1: And I even pose this question straight to Ned, is 450 00:24:26,196 --> 00:24:28,756 Speaker 1: this why you did it? The thrill of the hunt? 451 00:24:29,916 --> 00:24:32,516 Speaker 1: And Ned, well, he kind of answered me in that 452 00:24:32,636 --> 00:24:36,436 Speaker 1: classic roundabout Ned way where he started telling one story 453 00:24:36,476 --> 00:24:39,636 Speaker 1: and then another about the bikers, how he spent years 454 00:24:39,636 --> 00:24:44,396 Speaker 1: with guys like this. I think Ned was reminding me that, Yeah, sure, 455 00:24:44,756 --> 00:24:47,516 Speaker 1: in the Hollywood version of this story, he might be 456 00:24:47,556 --> 00:24:51,116 Speaker 1: cast as the Count Zarov character you know from the 457 00:24:51,156 --> 00:24:54,156 Speaker 1: movie The Most Dangerous Game, the guy who hunts humans 458 00:24:54,156 --> 00:24:59,156 Speaker 1: for fun. In reality, Ned was more like, well, a babysitter, 459 00:24:59,556 --> 00:25:02,316 Speaker 1: That's how he put it, anyhow, because there was never 460 00:25:02,356 --> 00:25:06,036 Speaker 1: a moment where he could just breathe easy, fix a drink, 461 00:25:06,556 --> 00:25:09,396 Speaker 1: and stare into the glassy eyes of a head that 462 00:25:09,516 --> 00:25:22,876 Speaker 1: was mounted on his wall. This bonus episode of Deep 463 00:25:22,876 --> 00:25:26,316 Speaker 1: Cover was produced by Jacob Smith, Amy Gaines, and Jennifer 464 00:25:26,356 --> 00:25:30,636 Speaker 1: Sanchez and was edited by Karen Shakerji. Original music and 465 00:25:30,716 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 1: our theme was composed by Louise Gera. Mia Loebell is 466 00:25:34,556 --> 00:25:39,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin's executive producer. Special thanks to Heather Faine, John Schnarz, 467 00:25:39,396 --> 00:25:45,836 Speaker 1: Carli Mgliori, Christina Sullivan, Eric Sandler, Maggie Taylor, Nicolemarano, Jason Gambrel, 468 00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:51,276 Speaker 1: Martin Gonzalez, and Jacob Weisberg at Pushkin Industries. Additional thanks 469 00:25:51,316 --> 00:25:56,036 Speaker 1: to Jeff Singer at Stoway Entertainment. Deep Cover is a 470 00:25:56,076 --> 00:26:00,436 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you 471 00:26:00,476 --> 00:26:03,716 Speaker 1: can hear deep Cover ads free. You'll also be able 472 00:26:03,716 --> 00:26:07,396 Speaker 1: to binge all of season two at once find Pushkin 473 00:26:07,476 --> 00:26:10,636 Speaker 1: Plus on the deep Cover Show, payee in Apple Podcasts 474 00:26:10,836 --> 00:26:14,596 Speaker 1: or at pushkin dot fm, slash plus. To find more 475 00:26:14,596 --> 00:26:19,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 476 00:26:19,436 --> 00:26:35,956 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Jake Halpern And if 477 00:26:35,956 --> 00:26:39,236 Speaker 1: you've listened this far, here's one more clip from deep 478 00:26:39,236 --> 00:26:45,756 Speaker 1: Cover Season two. Mob Land launching January twenty fourth, So Nick, 479 00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:47,436 Speaker 1: can you just tell me like if I'm a guy 480 00:26:48,036 --> 00:26:50,796 Speaker 1: who owes you money for a juice loan and I 481 00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:52,756 Speaker 1: have not paid you. Can you just give me an 482 00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:55,276 Speaker 1: example of what you would say to me, Like I 483 00:26:55,396 --> 00:26:57,876 Speaker 1: tell you, Jake, you know you got twenty four hours 484 00:26:57,876 --> 00:26:59,316 Speaker 1: to come up with that money. If you don't come 485 00:26:59,396 --> 00:27:01,156 Speaker 1: up the money, I'm gonna come bust your fucking head 486 00:27:01,436 --> 00:27:03,156 Speaker 1: or pop your eyes out and eat him like grapes 487 00:27:09,756 --> 00:27:12,596 Speaker 1: Day