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Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of iHeartRadio in gren and

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Speaker 1: Mild from Aaron Manky. For the best experience, listen with headphones.

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Speaker 2: This is the second of two interviews I did while

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Speaker 2: researching Heaven's Gate for season three of Strange Arrivals. In

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Speaker 2: the end, I did not include Heaven's Gate in the

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Speaker 2: main episodes of season three for a variety of reasons,

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Speaker 2: but wanted people to be able to hear these interviews.

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Speaker 2: The first one dropped last week. You can listen to

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Speaker 2: them in either order. This is an interview with Ben Zeller,

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Speaker 2: who is a professor of religious studies at Lake Forest

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Speaker 2: College in Illinois.

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Speaker 1: My name is Ben Zeller. I'm a professor of religious

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Speaker 1: studies at lake Forest College outside of Chicago, Illinois.

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Speaker 2: Could you talk about apple White and Nettle's backgrounds, both,

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Speaker 2: you know, religiously and otherwise.

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Speaker 1: Marshall Hurt Applewhite, who is the leader of Heaven's Gate

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Speaker 1: at the end, but only one of the two co

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Speaker 1: founders at the beginning, came from a pretty conventional Christian background.

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Speaker 1: His father was a Presbyterian minister, and apple White was

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Speaker 1: raised basically in the church, so for him, Christianity was

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Speaker 1: just sort of the assumed background. He went to college.

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Speaker 1: He actually considered becoming a minister himself, and he started

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Speaker 1: at seminary, so he actually has some training as a

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Speaker 1: Christian minister. He left seminary because he felt drawn into

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Speaker 1: music as a career. It's sometimes hypothesized he also left

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Speaker 1: because he realized that he was bisexual. We don't have

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Speaker 1: any hard evidence of that, but it's certainly plausible that

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Speaker 1: a closeted bisexual would have not felt comfortable in a

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Speaker 1: Presbyterian seminary at the time. Either way, he leaves seminary,

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Speaker 1: but he sticks with it long enough to really pick

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Speaker 1: up the details of Christian theology. Even at the very

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Speaker 1: very end of Heaven's Gate, he talks about questions about

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Speaker 1: predestination and election, which are Christian theological terms which make

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Speaker 1: sense within the particular denomination he was trained in. So

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Speaker 1: you can see he sort of never left it behind

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Speaker 1: and he brings that Christianity with him.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 1: Bonnie lue Nettle's, by contrast, was raised a Baptist but

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Speaker 1: was not particularly drawn into the tradition. A childhood friend

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Speaker 1: said an interview much later that she only went because

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Speaker 1: the family went, so she was sort of your typical

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Speaker 1: once a week at most, maybe once a month attendant

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Speaker 1: in keeping with sord of broader society. She was in Texas,

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Speaker 1: so she was Southern Baptist and nothing surprising there. As

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Speaker 1: an adult, she became deeply interested in alternative spiritualities. She

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Speaker 1: briefly joined the Theosophical Society. She was interested in spiritualism, interested

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Speaker 1: in channeling, and she was far more religiously eclectic than

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Speaker 1: her than apple White was.

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Speaker 2: How did they run into each other? How did they meet?

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Speaker 1: There are different stories for how he how apple White

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Speaker 1: and Bonnie Lune Nettles met. The only commonality that we

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Speaker 1: know for certain based on what they said, what their

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Speaker 1: friends said, but their family said as they met in

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Speaker 1: the hospital. The reasons that Nettles was in the hospital,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty clear. She was working there. Why Appley was

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Speaker 1: in the hospital, there's a couple of different answers. He

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Speaker 1: says he was visiting a friend. One of his family

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Speaker 1: members said that he was suffering heart palpitations and was

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Speaker 1: in there for treatment, And much later on after the

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Speaker 1: Heaven's Gate suicide, there's the claim that he was a

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Speaker 1: mental patient. We can dismiss that last one because Nettles

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Speaker 1: was not a psychiatric nurse, so there's no chance they

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Speaker 1: would have met in a psyche hospital.

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Speaker 3: She wasn't working in much. She was working i think

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Speaker 3: in obgy in rotation at the time, so not likely

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Speaker 3: that he was in for that. I've always assumed, because

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Speaker 3: we have sort of the two different stories, that yes,

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Speaker 3: he was in for heart palpitations, but then he went

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Speaker 3: to visit a friend afterwards. That's always sort of assumed

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Speaker 3: that they're both corrected. It makes sense either way. He

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Speaker 3: ends up running into Nettle's in the hospital, and at

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Speaker 3: this point in his life, Marshall Hurf apple White feels

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Speaker 3: like he's at a moment of transition. He's been experiencing

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Speaker 3: these sort of spiritual encounters. He has these, he sort

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Speaker 3: of hears these voices and feels this religious, spiritual calling.

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Speaker 3: He thinks like he has some sort of fate is

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Speaker 3: calling him to do something. He doesn't know what though,

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Speaker 3: but he feels like he's at this sudden moment of transition.

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Speaker 3: We should note where he's been recently divorced, he's been

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Speaker 3: fired from his job. He's sort of at this sudden

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Speaker 3: moment of transition in his life. Nettles is also in

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Speaker 3: a transition. She is also separated or in the process

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Speaker 3: of separating, and when they meet, the story goes and

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Speaker 3: we have only their story to go with that. She

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Speaker 3: said to him, well, let me do your chart. She's

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Speaker 3: an astrologer, so she does his chart and she says, actually, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you do have a fate. You actually do have a destiny,

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Speaker 3: but it's tied up with mine. The two of us

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Speaker 3: together are bound for a journey, and off they go,

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Speaker 3: and that's the story of the origin of Heaven's Gate.

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Speaker 2: Interesting what is sort of the origin of the interest

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Speaker 2: in UFOs.

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Speaker 1: Both Nettles and apple White were interested in UFOs even

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Speaker 1: before they met. Nettles Is interest in UFOs was bound

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Speaker 1: up with her sort of neo theosophical interest in channeling.

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Speaker 1: Traditional theosophy involves sort of receiving information from the beyond,

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Speaker 1: usually from humans or from spiritually advanced beings a generally

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Speaker 1: human that sort of send messages. Neo theosophy sort of

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Speaker 1: twentieth century theosophy. These ascended masters they come to be called,

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Speaker 1: are often considered space aliens or angelic beings or supernatural beings.

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Speaker 1: Today we would call it new Age. At the time,

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Speaker 1: it was sort of predates New Age, but within her

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Speaker 1: alternative spiritual miliu, it made sense as a channeler that

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Speaker 1: she would receive wisdom from extraterrestrials as well. We know

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Speaker 1: that she received contact or claim to receive contact from

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Speaker 1: deceased humans, so from the spiritual realm, so it would

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Speaker 1: have made sense she had looked at extraterrestrials as well.

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Speaker 1: But she was also interested in just sort of UFOs

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Speaker 1: as a phenomenon, so not just sort of the beings

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Speaker 1: to communicate with her spiritually, but also the claims about

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Speaker 1: sightings and crashes and things like that. Apple White was

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Speaker 1: a little more conventionally Christian in that way. He was

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Speaker 1: open to Nettles's interpretation, but he came into it really

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Speaker 1: trying to make sense of the Bible, and he used

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Speaker 1: UFOs and space aliens to make sense of the Bible.

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Speaker 1: But it was really Nettles Bndingland Nettles who brought UFOs

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Speaker 1: and ufology to him.

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Speaker 2: This is something I was looking at with other people,

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Speaker 2: is that there are people who kind of look at

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Speaker 2: UFOs as being the sort of the spiritual almost like

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Speaker 2: you know, paranormal type thing, and then there's others who are,

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Speaker 2: you know, look at that thing in the sky, they

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Speaker 2: landed at left marks, and then you know the people

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Speaker 2: who try and sort of synthesize it or at least

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Speaker 2: are willing to accept like both aspects of it as

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Speaker 2: being real. I think it's kind of an interesting step

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Speaker 2: that they have to take.

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Speaker 1: Both Nettles and apple White really did try to harmonize

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Speaker 1: that spiritual approach to UFO's neuthology and also then the

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Speaker 1: more sort of scientific approach. They certainly didn't come out

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Speaker 1: of that. So basically the same time they were starting

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Speaker 1: their work as when like Moufon, like the mutual ufhone

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Speaker 1: network was starting, although it was the Midwestern ufhone network

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Speaker 1: at first, So there were sort of secular scientific UFO

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Speaker 1: watchers and those who saw themselves as studying the evidence

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Speaker 1: on the ground, literally on the ground, right the imprints

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Speaker 1: and such. They did not come from that world, but

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Speaker 1: they were interested in engaging that, and they were interested

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Speaker 1: in speaking to those who had a secular approach to

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Speaker 1: UFOs because they really did believe that ultimately the UFOs

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Speaker 1: were real and that the beings who the Bible referred

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Speaker 1: to as angels and gods and things like that are

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Speaker 1: just biological extraterrestrial entities and that all the miracles of

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Speaker 1: the Bibles are simply UFO technology misunderstood. So they did

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Speaker 1: ultimately agree that science and technology and sort of a

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Speaker 1: secular approach was the way to understand UFOs and upology

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Speaker 1: and sightings and such. It's just that they were coming

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Speaker 1: out out of a religious miliu, and that's what they

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Speaker 1: really created as a religion. They really try to have

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Speaker 1: it both ways, if that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: What sort of novel ways did they use to integrate

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Speaker 2: sort of the reality of UFOs and their view into

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Speaker 2: sort of the theological and you know, spiritual concerns they

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Speaker 2: had coming into their partnership.

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Speaker 1: There's a couple of angles to what they tried to do.

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Speaker 1: One is the sort of the Vondonic and Chariots of

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Speaker 1: the Gods style approach, where they simply looked at ancient material.

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Speaker 1: In this case, the Bible is evidence of ancient aliens

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Speaker 1: and astronauts who had visited the Earth, and this was

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Speaker 1: recorded by primitive humans or comparatively primitive humans and as

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Speaker 1: religious as opposed to it actually being you know, space aliens,

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Speaker 1: so that they were part of the vanguard of them.

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Speaker 1: And this is the nineteen seventies, so they were ahead

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Speaker 1: of the curve in terms of that approach. I mean, now,

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Speaker 1: of course that's pretty you know, pretty standard, sort of

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Speaker 1: within one aspect of peupology. What they also did, though,

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Speaker 1: which was really different from that, is they tried to

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Speaker 1: interpret the Bible and particularly the prophetic passages of Revelation

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Speaker 1: with reference to this. So not just was it aliens

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Speaker 1: visited the Earth in the past, but they're going to

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Speaker 1: come back, and the Book of Revelation describes how they're

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Speaker 1: going to come back, and how the end of our

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Speaker 1: societies we know it is going to occur, and how

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Speaker 1: those who have hopes of leaving our planet are going

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Speaker 1: to be able to do that. And in particular, they

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Speaker 1: took the idea of the rapture, which is a Christian

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Speaker 1: and Evangelical Christian idea about how the save the elect

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Speaker 1: will be lifted up off the planet and what will

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Speaker 1: go into heaven. Within the traditional Christian idea, it's Jesus

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Speaker 1: meets them sort of halfway up and sort of lifts

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Speaker 1: them up into heaven, and everyone else is sort of

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Speaker 1: left behind and in fact left behind. It there's a

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Speaker 1: series of books called Left Behind, which were a fictional

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Speaker 1: version of this right for them though, it's a UFO

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Speaker 1: and Jesus is a space alien and it's a tractor being,

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Speaker 1: and it's not heaven, it's the literal heavens, it's outer space,

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Speaker 1: so that that's their interpretation. And they fused this with

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Speaker 1: what today we would call a New Age focus on

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Speaker 1: self transformation and healing and self development. So the initial

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Speaker 1: idea was that you would go on bodily form onto

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Speaker 1: the UFO, and you would perfect your bodily being in

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Speaker 1: your consciousness and you'd sort of elevate yourself to a

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Speaker 1: new level of being and sort of raise your vibratory frequency.

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Speaker 1: It was very sort of new Age language. They're really

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Speaker 1: pulling from Christian biblical prophecy, new Age healing and self transformation,

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Speaker 1: and the very sort of early upology and sort of

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Speaker 1: combining it all in a really fascinating way. I get.

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Speaker 2: There's two questions. One is like, who were the people

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Speaker 2: who responded to this message and what about the message

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Speaker 2: was compelling to them?

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Speaker 1: Most of the converts, most of the people who either

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Speaker 1: attended the meeting. So they had these massive public meetings

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Speaker 1: all up and down the West coast from Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: up through the Bay Area up through Oregon and Washington.

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Speaker 1: Most of the people who attended the meetings and most

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Speaker 1: of those who actually joined, were what I would call

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Speaker 1: spiritual seekers. Those who who stayed and those who left

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Speaker 1: generally had tried other spiritual pursuits, and that ranged from

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Speaker 1: actual other new religious movements like scientology or transcendental meditation,

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Speaker 1: two sort of quasi religious forms of living, like commune.

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Speaker 1: There was one number who had gone to Israel, Joenika Buotz.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of interest in psychedelia, in drug

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Speaker 1: use and drug trips, so they'd all tried different things

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Speaker 1: to sort of, you know, break out of the norm.

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Speaker 1: Not all, I should say that there were a few

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Speaker 1: who bucked the trend, but by and large, vast majority

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Speaker 1: were spiritual seekers. Of those who attended their meetings, and

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Speaker 1: they had these large meetings with fifty sixty, one hundred people,

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Speaker 1: two hundred people at some of them, they usually wouldn't

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Speaker 1: get any more a few, you know, a dozen at

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Speaker 1: most to join. So this didn't appeal to everyone, but

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Speaker 1: for those who did feel attracted to it. What was

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Speaker 1: generally new was the UFO angle, from the way in

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Speaker 1: which it connected to the Biblical prophecy because most of

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Speaker 1: the folks who joined were probably already aware of sort

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Speaker 1: of the New Age self transformation elements of it. There

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Speaker 1: were somedividuals who joined for one reason or another who

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Speaker 1: don't fit that pattern. So there were some people who

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Speaker 1: were very, very Christian in orientation, and what really grabbed

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Speaker 1: them was that this was a new way to interpret

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Speaker 1: the Christian Bible and it made sense to them. There

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Speaker 1: were also at least a few examples of people who

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Speaker 1: came in really through the UFO angle. What they were

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Speaker 1: interested in was making sense of UFO sightings and landings,

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Speaker 1: and the religious spiritual stuff was sort of secondary. But

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Speaker 1: most of the members were grabbed by sort of initially

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Speaker 1: that spiritual seeking. But what kept them in, because most

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Speaker 1: people who joined left, their nutrition rate was it was huge.

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Speaker 1: The people who stuck around found that combination somehow appealing,

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Speaker 1: and it was never a large number of people. There

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Speaker 1: were never more than fifty sixty seventy people at most,

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Speaker 1: even early on, and of course it ends with with

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Speaker 1: approximately forty, but even at its peak it was no

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Speaker 1: more than twice that size, So this was never a

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Speaker 1: mass appeal. But for some people that combination New Age

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Speaker 1: self transformation, biblical prophecy and making ends out of UFO

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Speaker 1: settings and sort of broader uphology for some people that

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Speaker 1: was very appealing.

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Speaker 2: Was this sort of set up beliefs. Was it fairly

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Speaker 2: static over time or were there changes as they members

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Speaker 2: came and when and they sort of you know, apple

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Speaker 2: white nettles sort of thought things over or had revelations

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Speaker 2: or whatever.

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Speaker 1: The central beliefs both were consistent and radically changing the

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Speaker 1: entire time. So this is really what's quite fascinating about them.

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Speaker 1: On the one hand, it's totally consistent from beginning to end.

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Speaker 1: The point of the group that we come to call

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Speaker 1: Heaven's Gate, and it hit other names too, was human

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Speaker 1: individual metamorphosis things. From beginning to end, their goal was

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Speaker 1: to get off the planet. It was to leave Earth

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Speaker 1: and ascend to a higher level of being, a higher

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Speaker 1: level of existence what they come to call the next

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Speaker 1: level or the evolutionary level above human on a UFO.

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Speaker 1: So from beginning to end, that's consistent. The details changed

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Speaker 1: over time, and the huge massive change was whether they

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Speaker 1: would go on bodily form. Initially they told their followers

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Speaker 1: at these sort of not even their fowers at these

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Speaker 1: mass meetings they said publicly, you don't have to die.

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Speaker 1: What we're offering is a trip to get onto the

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Speaker 1: UFO and to go to heaven in your bodily form.

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Speaker 1: There is no death required. You're gonna transform your body

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Speaker 1: like a caterpillar into a butterfly. Cataflars don't die to

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Speaker 1: become butterflies, they transform, And that was the metaphor they use.

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Speaker 1: The other metaphor they use was graduation. Students don't die

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Speaker 1: to graduate. They graduate and it's in their bodies. So

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Speaker 1: these were their metaphors. So you will graduate like a student,

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Speaker 1: or you will transform like a caterpillar and go into

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Speaker 1: the next level, and you will then be a perfected

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Speaker 1: extraterrestrial being. You're gonna live forever and never get sick,

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Speaker 1: never need to eat. You're not going to be suffer

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Speaker 1: sort of the frailties at the flesh, and you get

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Speaker 1: to take care of the universe. You're gonna sail around

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Speaker 1: in UFOs and manage the universe and manage planets. By

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Speaker 1: the end, that transition was no longer bodily, it was

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Speaker 1: your soul. Will go on and do that. You're gonna

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Speaker 1: get a new body and going to leave the frail,

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Speaker 1: broken human body behind, and that that is a radical transition.

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Speaker 1: There are other changes over time too, their particular biblical

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Speaker 1: interpretations change things like that, but that's the big one.

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Speaker 1: Everything else follows from there.

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Speaker 2: My conversation with ben Zellar will continue after the break.

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Speaker 2: My sense is that Nettle's death is like a major

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Speaker 2: kind of turning point in the trajectory of the group.

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Speaker 1: My interpretation is that when Nettles died, that's when that

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Speaker 1: transition occurs. That's when they go from understanding and believing

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Speaker 1: and assuming they're all going to go in bodily form

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Speaker 1: unto the UFO two. And then she dies and her

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Speaker 1: body doesn't go anywhere. UFO comes to pick it up,

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Speaker 1: and she know, nothing hatches out of her. You know,

300
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Speaker 1: there's not you know, it's not like alien right, So

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Speaker 1: there's no evidence that she, in any meaningful way, in

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Speaker 1: any bodily way, is going into the next level. So

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Speaker 1: they come to adapt and to adopt this idea of

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Speaker 1: the soul. And they don't call it the soul, they

305
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Speaker 1: call it the other things. But it's basically the consciousness.

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Speaker 1: It's an upload process. They use computer terminology. It's an

307
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Speaker 1: upload the consciousness. But whatever it is that that is

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Speaker 1: body Lunettle's leaves her human body and returns to utter space.

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Speaker 1: And in her case it's a return because they understand

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Speaker 1: her as having come from the next level, from outer

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Speaker 1: space to begin with, and from there then that expands

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Speaker 1: and that becomes the way eventually for all of them.

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Speaker 1: There are ex members I should note who can test

314
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Speaker 1: me on this who disagree with this argument, who say, no,

315
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Speaker 1: this was not the moment of transition. It was much later,

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Speaker 1: and there was not sort of a theological problem at

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Speaker 1: the moment of her death. But I would never dispute

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Speaker 1: those who were there. I understand, you know, their particular experiences.

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Speaker 1: But for my interpretation, this was the pivotal moment. And

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Speaker 1: it may have taken a decade until this was publicly

321
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Speaker 1: discussed and until they decided to embrace suicide, which as

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Speaker 1: we know, that's how it ends in nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 1: But the seeds of that were planted the moment that

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Speaker 1: Bonnie ln Nettles died.

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Speaker 2: What year was that.

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Speaker 1: Bonnielin Nettles passed away in June nineteen eighty five. The

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Speaker 1: rough chnology of the group is that T and do

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Speaker 1: of bodylue Nettle's Marshal Herfapawhites meet in nineteen seventy two.

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Speaker 1: The group itself begins in seventy four and seventy five

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Speaker 1: and seventy six as they're expanding out. That huge moment

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Speaker 1: of transition is when Nettles passes away, and then in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven is when the group ends. So that

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Speaker 1: that's your rough chronology. You have it sort of a

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Speaker 1: ten year period with her and then sort of a

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Speaker 1: ten year period afterwards, roughly plus or minus a couple

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Speaker 1: of years.

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Speaker 2: There was sort of an acceleration of you know, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if saying that it was sort of of

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Speaker 2: performative devotion, but like sort of an intensity of showing

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Speaker 2: how and I'm particularly talking about castration and you know, abstinence,

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Speaker 2: like extreme abstinence, I guess. And was that something that

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Speaker 2: in your view is a result of Nettles passing away

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Speaker 2: and Apple Whites trying to kind of deal with it

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Speaker 2: and keep the group together. I was trying to get

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Speaker 2: a handle on that.

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Speaker 1: In that case, I would disagree. All of those practices

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Speaker 1: have their roots very early on the group founded was founded.

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Speaker 1: The basic teaching was you had to move beyond your

349
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Speaker 1: human existence. And you had to abandon your human practices

350
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Speaker 1: that included sexuality, included drugs, and included attachments to the

351
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Speaker 1: people around you. So you had to sort of give

352
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Speaker 1: up all of those those human level addictions and attractions

353
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Speaker 1: and ways of being because you were trying to give

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Speaker 1: up your human way of being. And again they use

355
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Speaker 1: the metaphor they set up, a caterpillar can't be a

356
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Speaker 1: butterfly if it wants to cling to its caterpillar ways,

357
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Speaker 1: it has to embrace its new life as a butterfly.

358
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Speaker 1: So they taught very early on you had to be abstinent,

359
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Speaker 1: you had to give up drugs and alcohol. You had

360
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Speaker 1: to give up attachments to loved ones, to your birth family.

361
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Speaker 1: You couldn't get too attached to your job. All these

362
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,159
Speaker 1: things go all the way back. They didn't enforce it

363
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Speaker 1: for the first year because they were very poorly run

364
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Speaker 1: for the first couple of years. Metals and apple Whites

365
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Speaker 1: had all these ideas, but they took no lead in

366
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Speaker 1: managing the group. So individuals did all sorts of stuff

367
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Speaker 1: and then eventually t and do as they come to

368
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Speaker 1: call themselves. Finally, Nettle's Marshall, clap boyd Bow and t

369
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Speaker 1: Andell send people. So eventually T and Do say no,

370
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Speaker 1: we have to follow the rules. Understandably, people leave, so

371
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Speaker 1: they lose a bunch of people. Everyone who stays agrees

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Speaker 1: this is how they want to live their life. They

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Speaker 1: want to basically be a monastic and that was again

374
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Speaker 1: a term they used. They said were basically monastics. So

375
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Speaker 1: they embraced the monastic lifestyle. And after that, well, there

376
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Speaker 1: were some people who left because they couldn't handle that.

377
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Speaker 1: The ex member Sawyer, for example, who who was very

378
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Speaker 1: explicit about this, and he said he just he couldn't

379
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Speaker 1: handle the abstinence. This is what wasn't him, so he

380
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 1: left for that reason. But there were others who left

381
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Speaker 1: for other reasons as well, so that that wasn't the

382
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,520
Speaker 1: only reason people left. So that really those extreme practices

383
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,879
Speaker 1: we see at the end the castorrations and such, go

384
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Speaker 1: all the way back to the beginning after Te's death.

385
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Speaker 1: So the question is was there a sort of a

386
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Speaker 1: hyper focus on apple White and on sort of dedication

387
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 1: to him in the group. We do see the group

388
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Speaker 1: sort of focus narrow. However, I think given that there

389
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,439
Speaker 1: was now one leader instead of two, that simply that

390
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 1: just follow us from if the group hadn't known that

391
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Speaker 1: they would have dissolved.

392
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's a group dynamic that's not specific to them.

393
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Speaker 1: We have to remember Heaven's Kate, although it eventually died

394
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,719
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety seven, that the group ended, they were successful,

395
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Speaker 1: so that means they're going to be marked by certain

396
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,080
Speaker 1: social characteristics. They did things effectively to keep going. We

397
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,359
Speaker 1: could imagine the world in which after Nettle's died, apple

398
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 1: White was incapable of a leadership of the group, in

399
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 1: which case we wouldn't be having this conversation. They would

400
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 1: have dissolved in the nineteen eighties. It's only because apple

401
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 1: White was able to transform the understanding of salvation, of

402
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 1: getting to the next level and who Nettles was and

403
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 1: who he was. Only because because he was able to

404
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 1: transform that did the group survive ten more years. There's

405
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,880
Speaker 1: plenty of new religious movements UFO focused, and otherwise it's

406
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 1: just disappear when the founder dies or loses interest or

407
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 1: is arrested or something like that. It's the rare one

408
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 1: where the founder a co founder dies and they keep going.

409
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 1: Heaven's Gate's really unique in that way. Not unique, I

410
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 1: mean the classic nineteenth century cases the Mormons right when

411
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 1: they kept going, but it's unlikely that a new religious

412
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 1: movement keeps going after one of the founders dies unexpectedly.

413
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Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about sort of leading

414
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 2: up to the suicide and what the dynamic there.

415
00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 1: Was the suicides or in nineteen ninety seven. Build up

416
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,159
Speaker 1: to the suicides is really nineteen ninety four, So for

417
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: the first time in nineteen ninety four, the suicide is

418
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 1: discussed openly as an idea. And there's different stories about

419
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: how this came up. But the most frequently told story

420
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 1: I've been told by ex members who were present was

421
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 1: that this was at a warehouse in California, and that

422
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 1: it was nineteen ninety four, and that Doe apple White

423
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 1: had a group meeting and said, how would you all

424
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 1: feel if we left our human vehicles? That was their

425
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: term for their body, So if we left our human

426
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: vehicles voluntarily? According to those who were present, there was

427
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 1: at least one person who said, I'm not intered in

428
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 1: the left, but the rest of them said they were willing,

429
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 1: and actually we do know over the coming three years

430
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 1: there were other people who said, I'm not understanding going

431
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 1: to leave. So Rio D'Angelo famously he's the one who

432
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: finds the bodies. He had said that. He said, no,

433
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 1: I'm not into this. I'm not going to I don't

434
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 1: want to commit suicide. I feel like I have a

435
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,959
Speaker 1: recent to stay here. There were others as well. In

436
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: that three year time period. This was three years before

437
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 1: the actual suicides. They vacillated over whether they actually were

438
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 1: going to do this or not. They still hoped the

439
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: UFO was going to pick them up in bodily form,

440
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: but it was an open possibility over whether that was

441
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: going to happen and if they would have to leave

442
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 1: their human vehicles as they called them behind. They also

443
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: for a while were wondering if they would be murdered.

444
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 1: So this is around the same time as the Branch

445
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 1: Davidian assault, so for those who know their sort of

446
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 1: history of American government relations with New religions.

447
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 3: So this was.

448
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,479
Speaker 1: The over month long siege of the Branch Davidians in Waco,

449
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: which ended with the fire, which it's still extremely contentious

450
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 1: whether that fire was set by the Branch Davidians or

451
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: by the government, whether it was an accident, no one

452
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: really knows, but they almost all died. The Branch Davidians

453
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: so the members of Heaven's Gate thought for a while,

454
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: maybe the government's going to come kill us, you know,

455
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 1: they're going to besiege us, and we're all going to

456
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 1: get shot or burned to death, and that's how we're

457
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: conscious will be freed from our human bodies to go

458
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: into the UFO. Of course, that didn't happen, so they

459
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: had to sort of figure out how we going to

460
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: get from point A Earth to point B outer space.

461
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: Why the hail bop comet, How did that sort of

462
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: relate to the theology, if it did at all.

463
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: Members of Heaven's Gate had become quite attuned to a

464
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 1: conspiratorial subculture. This actually was coming from the bottom up.

465
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 1: I don't actually think apple White himself was initially into this,

466
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: but there were several members of Heaven's Gate who were

467
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: quite into sort of Internet culture or proto internet culture.

468
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 1: Actually it wasn't even the Internet, it was dial up

469
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: BBS's and they were part of sort of these chat

470
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: groups that was into government conspiracies. And that makes sense

471
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: because they believed in UFOs. So they believe the government

472
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: was conspiring to hide the presence of UFOs and the

473
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: presence of extraterrestrials on Earth, and they believed that there

474
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: were nefarious extraterrestrials who they called the Luciferians. For those

475
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: who know sort of pop culture gothology, think sort of

476
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 1: the reptiles. I think the Reptilian hypothesis here. So there's

477
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 1: David Ike and such like that. So there's there're these

478
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: reptilian evil space aliens who are conspiring against us, and

479
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: there's crashed UFOs and things. So there's there's conspiracies against us.

480
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: So they get plugged into the conspiratorial world and they

481
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: get connected to this claim that the government is hiding

482
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: the presence of a UFO behind helpop comet and that

483
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 1: all of the publicly released photos have been doctored. And

484
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: then this breaks into the mainstream with the Art Bell

485
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 1: radio show. So Art Bell Coast to Coast AM Coast

486
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: to Coast. Yeah, there's conspiratorial stuff, but that was actually

487
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: pretty mainstream. Art Bell was not sort of just a

488
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 1: nut job. Art Bell was listened to by a lot

489
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: of people. So Art Bell has this very popular late

490
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: night AM radio show and he gets a call in

491
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: that says, yeah, I've seen it, and I have photographic

492
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: evidence that there is a UFO. Following Helpop comments, and

493
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: then a couple of days later there's another call in

494
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: from a distance viewer who says, yeah, I was able

495
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: to project my consciousness and I was able to see it,

496
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: and I was able to tour this UFO trailing help

497
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: up comment. So there's claims that there's evidence that it's there,

498
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: and they really bought into this. Now they head to

499
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: their benefit. They said, well, even if there's not a

500
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: UFO there, that doesn't matter. This is the marker we're

501
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 1: looking for. The commet itself is the markers. Even if

502
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: there's not a UFO behind Helpop, we know the UFO

503
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: is up there anyways. It maybe somewhere else, but the

504
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: whole world is paying attention. This is our chance to

505
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: demonstrate to the world the truth of what we've been

506
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: saying for twenty plus years. And now is our chance,

507
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: with the world watching for us, to show the truth

508
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: of our message and to get our word out. You know,

509
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: they made a website, they had a book, they made videos,

510
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 1: they had transcripts, they had basically a press release. They

511
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: really in some ways, we're trying quite intentionally to get

512
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: our attention. They'd be in some ways thrilled we're still

513
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: talking about them twenty five plus years later. That was

514
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 1: their intentions.

515
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 2: I think I've talked about how they regret not having

516
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 2: been there and taken that leap what is sort of

517
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 2: the afterlife.

518
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 1: There were several members, and sometimes we call them X

519
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: members members. When people leave these groups, sometimes they rejoined.

520
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: So there were ex members who left the group in

521
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: the seventies or eighties and came back in the nineties.

522
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: And there were people who left because they couldn't follow

523
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: the rules, but they still believed the basic principles the

524
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: ideas of the group. And this is true across lots

525
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: of you know, lots of moments, big and small, old

526
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 1: and new, in the number of sort of Catholics who

527
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: sort of you know, they go to the church, but

528
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: they sort of like, you know, they still do some

529
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 1: Catholic stuff, right. So Heaven's Gate was the same way.

530
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: So there were people who had left the fold, but

531
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: they were still basically accepting the premise of the group.

532
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: And several of them did commit suicide or in their terminology,

533
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 1: they performed their exits and abandoned their vehicles. Wayne Cook,

534
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: who went by the name of just Justodie within the

535
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: group in May nineteen ninety seven, so that was just

536
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: a few months afterwards, committed an exit and Chuck Humphrey,

537
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: who was his check partner, so they always worked in

538
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: groups of two, he attempted to and his attempt failed,

539
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 1: and then later on he attempted it then and successfully

540
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: committed suicide or performed an exit. There were several other

541
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: members as well who had ex members. They're all gone now,

542
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: and there's there's still a few sort of true believers

543
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: left who are present on the internet. You can you

544
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: can find them around. So Sawyer is probably the best

545
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: example of sort of a true believer who's left and

546
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: still talked about his time in the group and in

547
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: fact has expanded and tried to sort of explain what

548
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: the group was about. And he has a pretty active

549
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: web presence, and you can find him on last I checked,

550
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: he's on YouTube, he's on Twitter, he's all over the place.

551
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: What important thing, haven't I asked you about?

552
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: So many misconceptions about Heaven's Gate. So the first is

553
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: sort of this idea that they were brainwashed jobs, that

554
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: there was something wrong with these people. They all left

555
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: or not all, and nearly all of them left either

556
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: video testimony or written testimony about why they did what

557
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: they did, about why they thought suicide made sense. We

558
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: may disagree, and I disagree. I don't support suicide, and

559
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: I'm not a believer and have it's skate, so it's

560
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: not my not what I would do, and it's not

561
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: my beliefs. But then again, there's lots of religions out there.

562
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: They're not what I would do, and not my beliefs

563
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: and not my community. And some of them are pretty extreme.

564
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: And while Heavens Get may to be more extreme because

565
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: of the suicide, I don't think we can immediately assume

566
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: people who do extreme things are crazy or are diluted.

567
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: They had reasons for what they did and a lot

568
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: of that. Actually, your listeners can can just go to

569
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: their website. It's still up there. It's maintained by x members.

570
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: You can read some of their exit statements. You can

571
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: see why it made sense to them, and there's there

572
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: was video exits as well, and they're they're floating around.

573
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: They were on Vimeo one point. You can if you

574
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: search for Heaven's Gate exit videos you'll find them there.

575
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: They're floating around. I find these very powerful to listen

576
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: to because it really humanizes them for me. Again, I

577
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: don't agree with what they did, and I don't believe

578
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: as they do, but I want to take them seriously

579
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: as human beings, ironically, because they did not want to

580
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: be human beings. So I always say this when I

581
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: talk about that. It humanizes them for me. But I

582
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: recognize they didn't want to be human. That's the last

583
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: thing they wanted to be. I, as a human, see

584
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: them like me. They in fact wanted nothing to do

585
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: with our planet or people like you and me because

586
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: they wanted to transcend that. But again, I'm a scholar

587
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: for religion, so that's okay. I'm okay disagreeing with the

588
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: people I'm studying. I try to recognize the community in them,

589
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: even if they don't recognize it themselves.

590
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: Strange Rivals is a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and

591
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 2: Mild from Aaron Mankey. This episode was hosted by Toby

592
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: Ball and produced by Rima L. Kayali Jesse Funk, and

593
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: Noemi Griffin, with executive producers Alexander Williams, Matt Frederick and

594
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: Aaron Manke, and supervising producer Josh Thain. Learn more about

595
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 2: the show at Grimminmile dot com slash Strange Arrivals, and

596
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: find more podcasts from iHeartRadio by visiting the iHeartRadio app,

597
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

598
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 2: Yeah