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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Such Podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Dave dieterwer of the President of

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Speaker 1: the United States of America. Dave, it's a thirty at

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Speaker 1: the anniversary of your debut album. What do you have planned?

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Speaker 2: Not as much as I'd like. We don't play live anymore,

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Speaker 2: and we have some nice offers and such, but I

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Speaker 2: don't know how much we'll get up to, and we've

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Speaker 2: always been I guess you'd have to say laissez faire,

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Speaker 2: or you could call it punk rock or you know,

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Speaker 2: pickywords wisely, but we just let the music speak for

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Speaker 2: itself and hope people respond well. So we don't have

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Speaker 2: any kind of blitz scheduled, just try to try to

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Speaker 2: do a few things here and there like this. This

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Speaker 2: seemed like a good excuse to talk to you if

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Speaker 2: nothing else.

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Speaker 1: Okay, there are two other members in the original band.

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Speaker 1: How do all of you get along?

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Speaker 2: We get along unbelievably well. Actually, So there's my bandmates

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Speaker 2: are Chris Blue, who's the bald guy and the singer,

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Speaker 2: a primary singer, and then Jason Finn, the drummer. Chris

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Speaker 2: and I have known each other since middle school. And

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Speaker 2: Jason and I have known each other since we met

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Speaker 2: at a urinal at a gig at Seattle University in

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Speaker 2: about nineteen eighty four and I asked him to be

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Speaker 2: in another band I had at the time, and somehow,

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Speaker 2: over the course of thirty plus years of playing together,

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Speaker 2: we've gotten along famously. We don't really hang out with

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Speaker 2: each other a lot outside of playing music, but we

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Speaker 2: have this symbiosis whatever when we get together in a

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Speaker 2: room with instruments, and then we'll get into it, I'm sure,

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Speaker 2: but we have these incredibly lucky to have sort of

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Speaker 2: complimentary musical talents and also complimentary, for lack of a

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Speaker 2: better way to say it, business or professional skills and

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Speaker 2: interests that allowed the thing to work really well and

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Speaker 2: still work well thirty years later.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but didn't you stop playing with the band a

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Speaker 1: little over a decade ago?

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Speaker 2: I stopped our heyday was really ninety three to about

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Speaker 2: ninety eight, and then Chris quit as he was starting

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Speaker 2: his young family, and then at my instigation really around

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Speaker 2: three we started up again. That was when we got

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Speaker 2: the rights back to all the rights back to the

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Speaker 2: masters to our debut record, our hit record, and it

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Speaker 2: was a good impetus to get going again. And for

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Speaker 2: a few years at that time, I'd gone back into

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Speaker 2: proper white collar work as a public affairs account executive,

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Speaker 2: and I had two young daughters and you know, wife

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Speaker 2: and a big house, and I was trying to do

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Speaker 2: all of it. For about two years, I was working

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Speaker 2: full time, being a dad, being a husband, and then

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Speaker 2: trying to fly out two to four weekends a month

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Speaker 2: to play, you know, one to three gigs a weekend.

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Speaker 2: And after about two years of the band being back together,

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Speaker 2: maybe in six I just said I never actually quit.

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Speaker 2: Actually I said I needed to take a break for

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Speaker 2: six months. And a mutual friend of ours, Andrew mckaig,

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Speaker 2: lovely guy and great musician, he filled in. And then

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Speaker 2: they kept going for a number of years, touring without me.

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Speaker 2: But yet we all the three of us, kept running

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Speaker 2: the business and managing our managing the records we own,

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Speaker 2: and you know, so the whole thing kept rolling. I

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Speaker 2: just couldn't do it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, when you reform the group and you're flying out

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Speaker 1: two or three weekends, is that more of the vanity

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Speaker 1: project or you're making any money?

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Speaker 2: We were making money, and the challenge is, as you know,

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Speaker 2: as a as a musical artist unless you're you know,

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Speaker 2: Trans Siberian Orchestra or somebody in the Wiggles or somebody

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Speaker 2: who figures out how to clone yourself. Well, there's only

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Speaker 2: one of you, and you can only be in one

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Speaker 2: place at a time. So the challenge was, is this

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Speaker 2: what I want to hang my hat on for the

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Speaker 2: rest of my working life? Is you know, maybe playing

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Speaker 2: sixty to eighty shows a year and being gone two

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Speaker 2: hundred days a year with kids, And I didn't want

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Speaker 2: to do that. So it was it wasn't a vanity thing.

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Speaker 2: We were making money and could have made a great

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Speaker 2: living at it.

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Speaker 1: So okay, a band that is you know, ten plus

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Speaker 1: years pass its heyday or around that ballpark, you leave,

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Speaker 1: you fly out, you come home. How much can you net?

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Speaker 2: We sort of put a floor on what we would do.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't think we would take any gig

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Speaker 2: for sort of less than ten k after expenses. So

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Speaker 2: if we felt like we were each netting before taxes

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Speaker 2: three to four grand a gig, or grossing before taxes

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Speaker 2: three to four grand a gig, that it was worth doing.

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Speaker 2: And then as it evolved, you know, I bailed out

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Speaker 2: at a certain point. But as it evolved, you take,

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Speaker 2: as you know, in this industry, you get, you know,

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Speaker 2: if you want to route a tour all the way

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Speaker 2: down the West coast. For us at that point, it

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Speaker 2: didn't work very well because some places you get a

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Speaker 2: twenty five hundred dollars guarantee, but then you might also

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Speaker 2: get the gig at the Rodeo in Houston that's thirty

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Speaker 2: five grand. Right, So the things sort of start to

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Speaker 2: average out a little bit and you have to put

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Speaker 2: some floor on it to be able to make it work.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you've always emailed me about your income. Let's start

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Speaker 1: with the basics. Was the original deal with Columbia that

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Speaker 1: you get the record back or is that a result

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Speaker 1: of some kind of lawsuit or something.

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Speaker 2: No, we owned the record. So we made the record

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Speaker 2: with our friend Conrad Huno, who had what was locally

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Speaker 2: a legendary studio, Egg Studio in Seattle for years, and

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Speaker 2: he recorded the young fresh Fellows who were sort of

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Speaker 2: an you know, Seattle indie icons. Mud Honey records lots

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Speaker 2: of other artists, and he had a label called pop Lama,

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Speaker 2: and we just did a handshake deal with him in

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Speaker 2: sometime in ninety four, as you know, it all happened

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Speaker 2: really fast, Bob. We started. Chris and I had had

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Speaker 2: bands for ten years, starting in maybe nineteen eighty two

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Speaker 2: or eighty three. We were both from Seattle. We started

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Speaker 2: playing Me's. We went to high school together. We weren't

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Speaker 2: really friends. Right after high school, I was a year

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Speaker 2: ahead of him. The year after he graduated, we started

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Speaker 2: playing together, making recordings, and we always had this chemistry.

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Speaker 2: It was like it was just on from the first

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Speaker 2: time we ever sat down together. We played Deer Prudence.

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Speaker 2: He was playing keyboards and I was playing guitar, and

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Speaker 2: it was like, this is obviously like magic. So over

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Speaker 2: of course of ten years, we had all these bands.

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Speaker 2: I was going to school, he was going to college,

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Speaker 2: and then he was moving back and forth from Denver.

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Speaker 2: I was in Denver, excuse me. He was in New

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Speaker 2: York and Boston. We'd both come back to Seattle at times,

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Speaker 2: and we always had bands. So what happens fallow ninety three,

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Speaker 2: he moves back to Seattle for good. We do what

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Speaker 2: we always did. I had a rehearsal studio at the

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Speaker 2: time with I Think the Posy's, a great band called

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Speaker 2: Flop another band seven year bitch I shared with them,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, okay, we got songs, I got a

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Speaker 2: rehearsal studio, let's just start playing. And we started playing

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Speaker 2: as a duo, and he has really bad tonight us

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Speaker 2: and at the time he's like, I don't even want

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Speaker 2: to have a drummer. Let's just play as a duo.

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Speaker 2: We started playing shows under these other names. We were

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Speaker 2: the Lofies, we were Pure Frosting, we were I can't

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Speaker 2: remember what else we called ourselves, and pretty quickly, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is we got a following, even before we added drums.

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Speaker 2: This is in the fall of nineteen ninety three, and

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Speaker 2: people dug us. You got to remember, Seattle nineteen ninety

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Speaker 2: three is like people move in here from Phoenix, you know,

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Speaker 2: and buying flannel and Doc Martin's and every show is

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Speaker 2: like a wall of Marshall stacks and long hair and

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Speaker 2: super loud and anks, dridden nonsense. And we get up

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Speaker 2: on stage and I'm like dorky, preppy guy in a

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Speaker 2: you know, a button down shirt and a grow grain

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Speaker 2: belt and saddle shoes, and Chris is this spaz bald

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Speaker 2: spas with spray painted gold boots. And so the two

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Speaker 2: of us plugged into this one, you know, like ninety

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Speaker 2: dollars amplifier with our twenty dollars guitars coming out playing,

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Speaker 2: you know, iggying the Stooge's tv I with no drummer.

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Speaker 2: So I think we stood out right away. And at

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Speaker 2: that point we'd been doing it for a long time,

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Speaker 2: and I think we kind of knew what we were doing,

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Speaker 2: so boom, it just all of a sudden we had attention.

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Speaker 2: And then Jason, who was kind of at the time

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Speaker 2: known as the popa Pike Street, Seattle's hipster neighborhood. He's

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Speaker 2: kind of like the coolest guy in town. He was

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Speaker 2: in another band, Love Battery, who were on Subpop and

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Speaker 2: at the time had just been signed to A and M.

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Speaker 2: And he'd seen an earlier band Chris and I had

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Speaker 2: called go and had the joke was the super cool

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Speaker 2: rock guy had begged us for three years like next band,

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Speaker 2: you're in, next band, you guys have I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be the drummer. I'm going to be the drummer. So

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Speaker 2: he's begging us, you know, come on, I got to

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Speaker 2: join the band, and Chris and I had these big

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Speaker 2: heartfelt do we want a drummer Jason joins us, and

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Speaker 2: it's even more magical. It's like the thing Chris and

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Speaker 2: I had and then just I'll never forget. The first

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Speaker 2: rehearsal was like, Okay, this is a thing, and boom

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Speaker 2: it takes off. So early ninety four, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: like we're packing places within a few months, and we

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Speaker 2: went in to I don't think you've had him on

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Speaker 2: your podcast, you should. Barrett Jones, who was Dave Grohl's

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Speaker 2: good buddy from back East and then his drum tech

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Speaker 2: for years. He had a little studio and it's a

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Speaker 2: long story, but somebody who liked the band gave us

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Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty dollars to make a recording. We

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Speaker 2: went in and made a ten song cassette and Jason

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Speaker 2: was at the time bartender at the Comet Tavern, which

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Speaker 2: is kind of the ground zero for hipsters in Seattle

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Speaker 2: than in Now. He started selling it from behind the bar.

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Speaker 2: Chris takes off meanwhile, to go play bass in Beck's

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Speaker 2: band on the Mellow Gold tour for six months, and

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Speaker 2: Jason's selling these tapes from behind the bar just like

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Speaker 2: he's selling hundreds.

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Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, just how does he even know Beck?

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Speaker 2: He knows Beck. That's a long story. I think they

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Speaker 2: may have met because they were mutually acquainted with the

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Speaker 2: female singer songwriter Mary Lou Lord with him. That's fascinating, Okay, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So anyway, Yeah, Beck came up to Seattle once, did

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Speaker 2: a gig. Chris jumped on stage as he will with

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Speaker 2: anybody anytime, for any reason, and played a harmonica solo,

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Speaker 2: and then I think in the next few days after that,

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Speaker 2: Chris went down to Olympia and played some slide guitar

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Speaker 2: on what became One Foot in the Grave, and then

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Speaker 2: Beck had this weird hit out of nowhere as you know, Loser,

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Speaker 2: which broke. You know, Beck was in Seattle because Seattle's

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Speaker 2: one of the main places where it broke with Marco O'Collins,

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Speaker 2: DJ at K and d D and Yeah, Chris moved

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Speaker 2: down to la for a few weeks and hears and

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Speaker 2: then went on tour with Beck on the Mellow Gold Tour.

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Speaker 2: So at a certain point, Jason and I are calling

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Speaker 2: Chris like, we're getting these gig offers, you got to

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Speaker 2: come back. We're selling these tapes from behind the counter

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Speaker 2: at the Commet and it's just kind of going.

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Speaker 1: On, Wait, wait, wait, selling the tapes behind the counter.

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Speaker 1: Everybody lies if they say they sell one hundred thousand,

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Speaker 1: they sold a thousand. But since you ended up having success,

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Speaker 1: you can be honest. How many cassettes did you actually sell?

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Speaker 2: Hundreds? Somewhere between five hundred and a thousand.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot.

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Speaker 2: Having anything going on other than Jason b and you know,

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Speaker 2: playing it at the bar and people starting to get

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Speaker 2: a buzz around it. So so meanwhile Chris is on

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Speaker 2: tour and we're calling him and saying, we're getting all

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Speaker 2: these gig offers, when are you coming back? And then eventually,

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Speaker 2: this is a good industry story, John Silva, Beck's manager

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Speaker 2: fires Chris. I mean I think Beck fired him, but

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Speaker 2: because this is when Beck was still super kind a

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Speaker 2: dour and super serious and basically wanted to be thirston more.

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Speaker 2: It was before he got kind of was doing the

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Speaker 2: robot in a captain's outfit and stuff, which he eventually did,

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Speaker 2: and being fun. But Chris got kicked out of Beck's

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Speaker 2: band for you know, being having too much fun, like

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Speaker 2: smiling and jumping around on stage. It didn't fit the

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Speaker 2: mo that they wanted to portray. So that was in

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Speaker 2: you know, like I don't know. June nineteen ninety four,

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Speaker 2: Chris came back and boom, all of a sudden. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we are packing clubs and immediately like we are selling

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Speaker 2: out the Crocodile Cafe mos which is now new. Most

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Speaker 2: these are all like four hundred to seven hundred seat

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Speaker 2: rooms where within a month or two they're sold out

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Speaker 2: and they are like eight hundred people outside trying to

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Speaker 2: get in. And this is not hyperbolic, this is it

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Speaker 2: was insane. It was just it just happened. And it

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Speaker 2: was not like the hipsters in Seattle didn't think much

241
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Speaker 2: of us, except for a few people like Kim Thale

242
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Speaker 2: always loved us. Everybody was telling you Jet that same

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Speaker 2: summer of ninety four, Jason was making Love Battery's major

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Speaker 2: label debut for A and M, and everybody's telling him, man,

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Speaker 2: you got to just stick with Love Battery. You guys

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Speaker 2: are going to do it. Meanwhile, this freight train was

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Speaker 2: just gathering steam, and by the end of that summer

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Speaker 2: we played an as gap. So this is August ninety four.

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Speaker 2: We played an ASCAP showcase the weekend of Bumbershoot in

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Speaker 2: Seattle and it was packed and Tim Summers, who was

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Speaker 2: an A and R guy at the time for Atlantic

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Speaker 2: who signed Hoody and the Blowfish and who weirdly Chris

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Speaker 2: knew because they had played a gig together with Chris's

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Speaker 2: band and Tim's band, Hugo Largo I think at CBGB's

255
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Speaker 2: years before. Tim accosted us that night and took us

256
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Speaker 2: out for coffee the next morning and on there sitting

257
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Speaker 2: there at Cafe Vita, I think on Pike Street. He

258
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Speaker 2: really was excited about us. He was the first day

259
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Speaker 2: and our guy to be excited and I'll never forget.

260
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Speaker 2: He said, you guys are going to be the police

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Speaker 2: of the ninety and Chris just looked at him and said,

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Speaker 2: maybe the minute work of the nineties. So from there on,

263
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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, like a week later or two

264
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Speaker 2: weeks later, we were in Hits magazine constantly. There was

265
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Speaker 2: just this industry buzz. We didn't even have a manager

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Speaker 2: at the time. We eventually grabbed a friend who was

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Speaker 2: managing seven year bitch, Stacy Slater, and asked her to

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Speaker 2: manage us. And all of a sudden, We're going to

269
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Speaker 2: do showcases, you know, in LA and New York, like

270
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Speaker 2: every four to six weeks. Every label at that time,

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Speaker 2: there were seven or eight majors. Every major but Interscope

272
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Speaker 2: tried to sign us. It was nuts. I was in

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Speaker 2: grad school. I was my second year of grad school

274
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Speaker 2: at the time, and I was, you know, managing all

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Speaker 2: that and then taken off to New York or LA

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Speaker 2: every few weeks to do these you know, play at

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Speaker 2: the Viper Room or whatever. It was bizarre, and it

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Speaker 2: just kept gathering steam, you know. There was just this

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Speaker 2: momentum and Jason eventually he didn't At that time, We're

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Speaker 2: getting back to how we own our first record that

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Speaker 2: fall of nineteen ninety four, We're like, we didn't even

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Speaker 2: know if we're a band like Jason's in this other band.

283
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Speaker 2: They've got a you know, major label deal. Can we

284
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Speaker 2: even make a record together? So we uh made a

285
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Speaker 2: handshake deal with Uno and went into the little pop

286
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Speaker 2: Lama studios in his basement of.

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Speaker 1: His Wait wait, wait, wait, wait a little bit slower. Sure, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the three hundred and fifty dollars cassette tape.

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Speaker 2: That you're selling Froggy Style.

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Speaker 1: Subsequent to that, there's all this major label action, but

291
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Speaker 1: you decide to cut an independent record instead of making

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Speaker 1: a major label deal.

293
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Speaker 2: I think at the time, it was all happening so fast,

294
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Speaker 2: we thought, let's just go ahead and make a record.

295
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Speaker 2: And the other thing is we were getting indie. There

296
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Speaker 2: were some other indie labels that were interested in us

297
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Speaker 2: that and we started to get really crappy publishing offers,

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Speaker 2: kind of from all corners. And I remember vividly that

299
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Speaker 2: summer Chris and I sat down and had a long conversation.

300
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Speaker 2: We're like, let's either just do the simplest thing with

301
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Speaker 2: people we like, or let's grab for the brass ring.

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Speaker 2: If it starts gets to the point where we really

303
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Speaker 2: feel like we have the opportunity to take this to

304
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Speaker 2: as many people as possible, let's do it. But otherwise,

305
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Speaker 2: let's just do what we want to do. We don't

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Speaker 2: ever want to you know, we're I was thirty when

307
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Speaker 2: we signed a record deal. We weren't kids, you know.

308
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Speaker 2: We we knew how we wanted to live our lives,

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Speaker 2: and that we weren't you know, we were fully committed

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Speaker 2: to what we were doing, but we weren't gonna cowtow

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Speaker 2: to anybody. We liked what we did and believed in it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so cut that record? Is that the identical record,

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Speaker 1: the Columbia Releases or is there any remixing, re recording.

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Speaker 2: So that the first record has I'm blanking right now.

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Speaker 2: It has four or five songs that are actually from

316
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Speaker 2: the first session with Barrett Jones that we remixed and

317
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Speaker 2: in some case has added things to and then the

318
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Speaker 2: rest of the thirteen songs are from the sessions at

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Speaker 2: Egg's Studios. We put that all together as an album

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Speaker 2: on pop Lama. It came out in March of nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety five. Where we are just at this is when

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Speaker 2: we're playing every show we play, there are two to

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Speaker 2: five A and R people there. It's just bizarre. You know,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't matter whether we went played in some crappy

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Speaker 2: club and Belling.

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Speaker 1: Hill, Okay, but everybody's interested. How long is this period

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Speaker 1: of time? And why don't you say yes to anybody?

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Speaker 2: Because we're this period of time from the time where

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden we're in Hits magazine is like

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Speaker 2: September of nineteen ninety four and we committed to Columbia

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Speaker 2: by the first week in May nineteen ninety five, so

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Speaker 2: it's pretty short. I mean, our recording period was pretty.

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Speaker 1: Short, okay, And when do you cut the record?

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Speaker 2: So We cut the record in the fall of nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety four and it comes out in March nineteen ninety

336
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Speaker 2: five on poplom and it sold about five thousand copies

337
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Speaker 2: in Seattle within the first month or two.

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Speaker 1: Okay, if everybody was interested, why did you make a

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Speaker 1: deal with Colombia as opposed to anybody else?

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Speaker 2: So, as I said, everybody but Innerscope was interested. It

341
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Speaker 2: came down to Colombia and Guio Siri and Freddie at

342
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Speaker 2: Maverick and Madonna, who we met with a couple of times,

343
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Speaker 2: and we were ultimately choosing between those two. And we

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Speaker 2: really liked our and our guy at Columbia, Josh Sarabon,

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Speaker 2: and also Donnie Einer. He was you know, he's a

346
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Speaker 2: legendary figure for many reasons. But what we liked about

347
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Speaker 2: him was he's very, very direct. He he heard, you know,

348
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Speaker 2: the record was out in March nineteen ninety five. These

349
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Speaker 2: guys are really trying to sign us at this point,

350
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Speaker 2: and he just said, look, you guys, I'll put this

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Speaker 2: record out as is the first week in May nineteen

352
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Speaker 2: ninety five. He said, I will have this record out

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Speaker 2: by July. If you verbally commit now, it'll take us

354
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Speaker 2: another four to six weeks to finalize the long form contract,

355
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Speaker 2: but I give you my word, we will set the

356
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Speaker 2: record up starting now and we'll give you a full

357
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Speaker 2: push launch by mid July. And he fucking did it.

358
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Speaker 2: I mean that guy has my respect for lifetime. He

359
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 2: committed verbally in early May. He said, we'll put the

360
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 2: record out exactly as you want. We actually wanted to

361
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Speaker 2: remix a couple songs and remaster it, and I'll do

362
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Speaker 2: whatever you want. You want to remix it, do it,

363
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Speaker 2: just get it done. I'll have the record out. And

364
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:33,960
Speaker 2: you know how long in the physical ERAa it took

365
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,240
Speaker 2: to set up a record. It didn't take a month

366
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,880
Speaker 2: and a half. It took six months to really push

367
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Speaker 2: it out. So that's how we ended up in Columbia.

368
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Speaker 2: They just they were really direct with us.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, so now you're making a deal with Columbia.

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Speaker 1: It's major. You have one step better than garage management.

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Speaker 1: Who is your lawyer making this deal?

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Speaker 2: We had a killer lawyer, David Kottako, thank you very much.

373
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Speaker 2: At that time it was Cottaco, Guido and Carol was

374
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Speaker 2: the name.

375
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Speaker 1: So how did you get You're in Seattle, they're in

376
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Speaker 1: New York. How did you get hooked up?

377
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 2: We got hooked up. I have to say that our

378
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,160
Speaker 2: manager at the time, who Stacey, who's still in the industry.

379
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 2: Ultimately no offense Stacy. Once we had a hit record,

380
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Speaker 2: she didn't really she hadn't been through that. She didn't

381
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Speaker 2: really know how to max out our opportunities.

382
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Speaker 1: But she was.

383
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Speaker 2: She's my age, she'd been working in the industry since

384
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Speaker 2: she was seventeen. She knew everybody, you know, as we

385
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 2: went through the courting process. We did not pay for

386
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 2: a cup of coffee for you know, a year of

387
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:42,120
Speaker 2: getting flown around and courted and showcasing. So she knew everybody.

388
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Speaker 2: We met with every lawyer you could mention in the

389
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 2: top five or ten lawyers of that era. Katako was

390
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 2: the guy we hit it off with best. We felt like,

391
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Speaker 2: you know, you want an asshole, but he needs to

392
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,160
Speaker 2: be your asshole, right, and he felt like our guy.

393
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Speaker 2: Ken Hurtz was somebody we almost tied, and I have

394
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 2: a horrible story about having to tell him we weren't

395
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 2: hiring him while playing around to golf.

396
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Speaker 1: Well, we'll tell the terrible stories.

397
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 2: So we were down to Ken and David Cataco and

398
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Speaker 2: I had made plans to I play golf along with

399
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 2: pretty much every other sport, and I'd made agreed to

400
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,439
Speaker 2: go play around nine holes with Ken early in the morning.

401
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 2: We were in LA for four or five days, and

402
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,160
Speaker 2: the night before we were at Canter's actually the band

403
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 2: and our manager and we all decided we're hiring David.

404
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,159
Speaker 2: And we just had this huge pitch from Ken and

405
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Speaker 2: his partner. Meanwhile, this is really pre cell phone, right,

406
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,439
Speaker 2: this is and so so we'd make the decision at

407
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,679
Speaker 2: like nine thirty or ten at night, and the onus

408
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 2: is on me, like, Okay, Dave, you got to tell Ken.

409
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 2: I can't reach Ken. Cannot reach him. He's out at

410
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 2: an event with his wife, his babysitter doesn't know how

411
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,239
Speaker 2: to reach him, you know, can't really leave this as

412
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 2: a message. So I meet him at the golf club

413
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: the next day. I think it was Brentwood. I can't

414
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 2: remember where he was a member. I meet him. He's

415
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 2: just excited. He's walking out, all smiles, and he's a

416
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: great He was a great guy. He's all smiles. You know.

417
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 2: I'm on the driving range already warming up, and he

418
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 2: walks out to the driving range and I got to

419
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 2: tell him the first thing, like can I'm sorry, we're

420
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 2: going with David Cottaco. That was the longest nine holes

421
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 2: of golf I have ever played in my life. There

422
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 2: was It was brutal. He was just steaming and and

423
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 2: we got through it. And anyway, Hi, Ken, you're a

424
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 2: great dude. Sorry it didn't work out.

425
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Speaker 1: I can't believe that you ultimately played. Okay, the record

426
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 1: was done. You're dealing with plumb, You're dealing with Donnie.

427
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: Doesn't Donnie want to own the record.

428
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 2: He wanted us badly enough that we were able to

429
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 2: cut a deal where he didn't own the record. And

430
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 2: I think in retrospect, you know, David was a good

431
00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 2: enough lawyer, so they we gave them control of the record,

432
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,679
Speaker 2: and I think he felt like there was a weird

433
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 2: confluence of circumstances that allowed to get it back so

434
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 2: quickly after it was a hit, which was the deal

435
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: was we got the record back. Basically one of the

436
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 2: windows of opportunity was five years after the termination of

437
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 2: the deal, and because we had such a high peak

438
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 2: and then Chris decided to quit an absolutely adamant that

439
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 2: he wanted to be dropped from Columbia immediately so we

440
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 2: were out of our deal very shortly after having a

441
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 2: hit record, and then there was a five year timeout

442
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 2: on that and that's how we got it back. So

443
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: eternal gratitude to David Kottako for that.

444
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: What about the second record? Who owns that?

445
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: Columbia still owns a second record which did about fifth

446
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 2: as well as the first record. It has some good

447
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 2: songs on it that did well, and then we had

448
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 2: the two other kind of hits or valuable recordings we

449
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 2: had are on the third record, which was Pure Frosting,

450
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: which they put out after we split up, which has

451
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 2: a bunch of kind of stuff we were working on,

452
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: but it has the Cleveland Rocks, which was the theme,

453
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: you know, the theme song for the Drew Carey Show

454
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: for seven or eight seasons. And it has our cover

455
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 2: of video Killed the Radio Star, which was on the

456
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 2: Wedding Singer record, which sold really really well.

457
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: Okay, why did he Chris quit the band?

458
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 2: I think at the time it was a few things.

459
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 2: You know, the whole ride was pretty intense, and you know,

460
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 2: he I would you know, it's his story to tell.

461
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: But he always had a fantasy that would sort of

462
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 2: be the sex Pistols that we'd break up, you know,

463
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 2: before we even started, that we'd be this kind of colossal,

464
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 2: colossal success slash failure. I think he also just started.

465
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: He was in his first marriage at the time, and

466
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: his older child was a year or so old, and

467
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 2: I think he was feeling the stress of that, and

468
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: he'd gone from you know, I'd had sort of you know,

469
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: professional careers in my twenties, but he'd been a guy

470
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 2: who basically owned a phone pad and a fifty dollars

471
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 2: guitar and was just making music. Had committed to like,

472
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 2: I don't care if I have to paint houses and

473
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 2: count checks in the basement of a bank as a temp.

474
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 2: I'm going to do this. So he'd gone from that

475
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 2: to wow, I own a nice house, I'm married, I

476
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: got a kid, And I think he just kind of

477
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 2: freaked out, and he you know, it was also a

478
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: little bit of a be careful what you wish for,

479
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 2: and he capped to that to me a few years

480
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: ago over lunch, just like you know, he said, basically, look,

481
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 2: I was basically ready to quit right as our first

482
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 2: record became a hit. It just freaked me out. So

483
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of pressure there too, as well,

484
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 2: so I think that's why I quit at the time.

485
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: Okay, it's over. Yeah, you know, he's not the first

486
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: person to regret, you know. And Tom Petty Ron Blair

487
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: was the bass player opened a bikini shop in the

488
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: San Fernando Valley. Ultimately, when how we Epstein died, he

489
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: came back.

490
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

491
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: Christine mcviee was living in the UK for ten years

492
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: and woke up one day, So what the fuck did

493
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 1: I do? So, you know, usually people wake up, you know,

494
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: when no one when the phone isn't ringing.

495
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 2: I don't you know, we're weirdos, Bob. I mean, I

496
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 2: think our approach was always like, we're not going to

497
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: do anything we don't want to do. We always, in

498
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: terms of how we've run our business and personal lives,

499
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 2: we're all about the margin and the bottom line. And

500
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 2: we all made a reasonable amount of money, you know,

501
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: in the presidents. Chris went on to have a very

502
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 2: very successful career doing music back you know, he was

503
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: sort of the first person, I don't know if you

504
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 2: remember Pump Audio, which was one of the first pre

505
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 2: licensed music companies. Through a variety of circumstances, he ended

506
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 2: up getting in early on that so we had thousands

507
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: of tracks out being licensed. Then he started a kid's

508
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: music thing. I mean, he's like a poster child for music.

509
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 2: Two dot.

510
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: Oh.

511
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 2: He started a kids music thing, Casper Baby Pants, which

512
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 2: he's now shelved. But he put out I think eighteen

513
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: records in ten years and became this absolute fixture in

514
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 2: the Puget Sound area, playing you know, eighty or one

515
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 2: hundred times a year to kids and honestly made a

516
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: ton of money doing that and had a great time,

517
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 2: and a whole generation of kids from this region loved

518
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: the Casper Baby Pants record. So he's just a real smart,

519
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: hardworking guy, you know.

520
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: Okay, did he ever have a day job?

521
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 2: He has not had any day job since since the

522
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: presidents started, nor has Jason and I have only by

523
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,719
Speaker 2: choice really for a number of reasons.

524
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: Okay, So Chris says he wants to quit. What do

525
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: the two other guys say.

526
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: Fuck, we knew, you know, we had agreed in late

527
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 2: ninety seven that we were going to take a six

528
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 2: month break. Let's have another meeting in two weeks. This

529
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: was a Jason's house here in Seattle on Capitol Hill

530
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 2: at the time. Chris walks in the door of the

531
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 2: next meeting. Two minutes later, he's like, we don't even

532
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: need to have this meeting because I quit. I've decided

533
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: I want to call cottacol right now. I want to

534
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: call Columbia. I want out of the deal now. Since then,

535
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 2: years later he admitted that this was not the best

536
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 2: way to make this decision. But he's a he's a

537
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: classic mercual, mercurial that's a hard word to say, artist type,

538
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: and you know, he's the person when he decides something,

539
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 2: he decides it and commits fully. So I knew there

540
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: was no talking him out of it. Was I was

541
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 2: also burned out. I just wanted to take a break

542
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: for six months and keep going. The weird thing is

543
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: that is that within nine months of us breaking up,

544
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 2: we started a new band with the three of us

545
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: and Sir mix a lot called Subset, which frankly should

546
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 2: have been freaking huge, and for a variety of reasons,

547
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: we had tracks out on Napster kind of that that

548
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: were I think, I'm told down loaded heavily in the

549
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands, and we made basically a full album,

550
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: but it just didn't ever come together. So weirdly, he quit.

551
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: But then months later we were in the studio with

552
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 2: the three of us in sir mix a lot making

553
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 2: new recordings.

554
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you're not the only one involved. There's a manager,

555
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: there's Katakau, there's Donnie and Columbia.

556
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 2: What did they all say they were? I think they

557
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 2: felt like they'd had a great run with our first

558
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: record and our second record did okay. I think they

559
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: were very happy to take take the spoils from our

560
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: first record and walk away and enjoy that and not

561
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: sweat it too much. You know, they talked for a

562
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: while they didn't want us to use our name. So

563
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: if you see actually in our last video we made,

564
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: which was for video Killed the Radio Star on Jason's

565
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: kick drum, it says the Quitters and you know, they

566
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: didn't want to let us use our name for anything.

567
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: But I don't think they And they tried to, you know,

568
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 2: threaten to exercise leaving them or you know, sort of

569
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: exclusivity clauses, but they didn't never really put the hammer down,

570
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: you know, it was there was no I think they

571
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: were very happy to have unexpectedly made tens of millions

572
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: of dollars off our first record.

573
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: Okay, why was the second record not as successful I think.

574
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: I don't think it's I think it's a good record

575
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 2: when I listen to it now. The first record is

576
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: really an anomaly. It's a very weird record, and I'm

577
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 2: most proud of having made what I think is a

578
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 2: highly authentic piece of art with real integrity that became

579
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 2: wildly popular. I mean even sonically our first record, I mentioned,

580
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: you know, some of the tracks are from the first

581
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: session with Barrett Jones on a little half inch eight

582
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: track machine, which is very low fidelity. Conrad's studio was

583
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: sixteen track, one inch I think, and then we transferred

584
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 2: all of that at one point to two inch on

585
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: a mobile truck. And even just like the tape hiss

586
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 2: and the tape compression, just the sound of the record

587
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: is unlike anything else from that era. It's a and

588
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: then you know, we're playing these weird, weirdly strong tuned instruments,

589
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: and I mean, it's the first record is crazy. And

590
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: I think one of the problems with the second record

591
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: is then we had to go out and be like

592
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: a loud rock band on tour, and the second records

593
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: more of like a rock band, and that's not really

594
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: I think our Forte was being like, and I think

595
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: of it as like folk music meets the MC five,

596
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 2: you know, with a little bit of psilocybin thrown in.

597
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 2: It's It was a little weirder than direct rock music.

598
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: But I just think, you know, lightning strikes not always

599
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 2: more than once. You know that there are moments in time.

600
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: Okay, Lou Christie. The record comes out July.

601
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, third week of July nineteen ninety.

602
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: Most people have no idea of the Mailstrom of being

603
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: the act at the center of success. So tell us

604
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: about that.

605
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 2: Oh god, it was. It was amazing. So I'm finishing

606
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,479
Speaker 2: up at that point, I just, uh, while we were

607
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: in the Bob Lang studio in the Seattle area remixing

608
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: the record, I'm sitting in one of the ISO chambers

609
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: finishing my last work on a master's in urban planning

610
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 2: for the University of Washington. So we're doing that, and

611
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: then a few weeks later, they're like, oh, yeah, you're

612
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: gonna go. You guys are going to do some promo

613
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: tour thing. I'm like, whatever, I guess I'll write my

614
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: thesis after this promo tour is over. So all of

615
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: a sudden, we start getting this news like the advanced stuff.

616
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: There are a few stations, influenced, influential stations around the

617
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 2: country picked up Lump, which is the first single you

618
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: know off not even off the advanced single, just stuff

619
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: the advanced CD before they even started pushing the single

620
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: in early July, and that included WHFS in the DC area,

621
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: which was a big taste maker in commercial alternative at

622
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: the time. I think ninety nine X in Atlanta. K

623
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: Rock was probably a little bit behind it. And so

624
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: there's a little momentum, which is great. All of a sudden,

625
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: then we go do this promo tour. So for the

626
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: month of September nineteen ninety five, our month of August

627
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: and September, we did a promo tour in the US

628
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: and Europe, and I've apparently was told it was legendary

629
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: at Colombia because we were willing to do anything like

630
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: the day we did in La Among other things, we

631
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: played in the parking lot at Pink's Hot Hot Dogs

632
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 2: on Librea. We played on the third Street promenade in

633
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: Santa Monica, and we were doing this every day, flying

634
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 2: from one city to another. We play on the back

635
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 2: of a flatbed truck, played on the Beach in San Diego.

636
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: The day we did. I always described the day we

637
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: did in New York to try to give people an

638
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: idea of what it was like. I think we flew

639
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 2: in from Atlanta, Sony Rep picked us up. We got

640
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: in the car at like ten at night at JFK.

641
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: He turns on the radio and what's the huge top

642
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 2: forty station in the New York area that it's got

643
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 2: like a Jillian listeners. I'm blanking on it right now.

644
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: He turns on that station. I'm sorry, I can't remember

645
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 2: it right now. They're playing Lump. He's clear. I'm sure

646
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 2: he set it up right, you know, down to the

647
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 2: minute we go to the hotel. We go over to that.

648
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 2: It's killing me that I can't remember the name of

649
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 2: the station. We go across the w you know, New.

650
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: York Change after it was wplj NO, and there was

651
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: k Rock, there was Scott Shannon station.

652
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: It was the big top forty FM station at the time.

653
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 2: So we go across the river to their place at

654
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 2: you know, like midnight, and there's still a huge audience

655
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: at the time. We go on there for fifteen or

656
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 2: twenty minutes, maybe with acoustic guitars, go back to the hotel,

657
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: go to sleep. At one thirty, get up, and this

658
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 2: is when we still would agree to do morning drive time.

659
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 2: Get up, Go to one rock station, do an interview,

660
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 2: play three songs live on the air during drivetime. Get

661
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 2: in the van. Go to whatever the commercial alternative station

662
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: was at the time. Do an on air segment, play

663
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: two or three songs live on the air. Get in

664
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 2: the van. Go to five fifty Madison Avenue, the famous

665
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 2: Philip Johnson AT and T Building, which was Sony headquarters

666
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 2: at the time. Play a full set before lunch to

667
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: all Sony employees and anybody who's walking by in the

668
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: glass lobby of that building, which is sonically a nightmare

669
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: but exciting. Then go upstairs, have marketing meetings. Somebody remembers

670
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: to give us a sandwich at some point, right, and

671
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 2: this is August, it's ninety with you know, like ninety

672
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 2: percent humidity. Then we get in the van. We go

673
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: down to Washington Square Park. And this is all if

674
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 2: you're lucky to do this right, this is a privilege.

675
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 2: Go down to Washington Square Park. They have a stage

676
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 2: set up in generators in full pa. We played a

677
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 2: full set in Washington Square park for whoever happened to

678
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: be walking by. It's like ninety We're right in the sun.

679
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 2: There's no shade, no nothing. Then that we do get

680
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 2: to go back to the hotel for like an hour.

681
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: Then we go to some pizza joint and it's a

682
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 2: meet and greet with at the time, all the people

683
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: run the one stops and the the you know, the

684
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 2: tower managers and stuff from the Tri State area all invited.

685
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: So we stand around and drink beer and eat pizza

686
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,439
Speaker 2: and make nice with all the people who are gonna

687
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: determine whether we're on the end caps at tower or not.

688
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 2: And then we the band, pushed the air hockey tables aside,

689
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: set up a little pa and all our stuff that

690
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 2: we were flying with, and play another full set to

691
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 2: this you know this crowd. And then we go back

692
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 2: to the hotel and I don't know, got up at

693
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 2: six the next morning for another lobby call and went

694
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 2: and did that again. So we did that every day

695
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: for two months through the US and Europe, and that

696
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 2: was before we even started proper touring, and meanwhile the

697
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: record was blowing lump was blowing up.

698
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: Okay, couple of questions in retrospect was that necessary.

699
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was necessary, but I think

700
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 2: it helped. I mean some of these things, a lot

701
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,959
Speaker 2: of stations were already playing us. You'd have to ask

702
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 2: what John Leche was, the guy who I think was

703
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: really the architect of the marketing campaign at the time,

704
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: who I'm still in touch with. I don't know how

705
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 2: much of a difference it made, but I think our

706
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: willingness to work made a big difference. We were always

707
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: on time, ready to go, ready to kick ass, and

708
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: we would you know an example, some of the stations.

709
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 2: You know, we went to some markets. Like I said,

710
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 2: WHFS was playing us already. They had set up a

711
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 2: thing where we played in the Inner Harbor in Baltimore.

712
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 2: We had no idea we were doing these things, two

713
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 2: or three of them a day. We show up to

714
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: do that and like three thousand kids shows up, show

715
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: up the songs. I mean, this place, this Amphitheater on

716
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,959
Speaker 2: the Harbor is packed, and we've got this crappy little

717
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: traveling drum kit where Jason's kick drum is a suitcase,

718
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 2: and Chris and I have these tiny ams and we

719
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 2: play at full set to other places. We went to

720
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 2: other stations in August where they hadn't added the song

721
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 2: and a couple of those we went into their boardroom

722
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: and set up our gear on their boardroom table and said,

723
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 2: come intherfuckers and have your lunch. We're going to blow

724
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 2: your minds. And so I think it had to have

725
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: helped to at least some degree. Would I would like

726
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 2: to think so, because it was really hard work.

727
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: Okay, the human body can only take so much. Most

728
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: of this is regular roadwork. You're playing to thousands, you

729
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: can't calm down. Then the sun comes up. So there

730
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: are drugs involved alcohol. How did you guys manage this

731
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: physically and emotionally?

732
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 2: I can speak best for myself. I didn't manage it

733
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: very well physically. It didn't really agree with me. I'm

734
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 2: a guy who wants to be like I mean, you

735
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 2: can see my skis on the ceiling behind us. I

736
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 2: want to be out. My bike's right there on the trainer.

737
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: I want to be out skiing or climbing with my friends.

738
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 2: That was my whole thing, was doing sports and being outside.

739
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 2: That's my whole life growing up and with my best friends.

740
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: And I also don't have I certainly don't have an

741
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 2: iron stomach or an iron constitution. So the whole thing

742
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 2: really disagreed with me. And I think, you know, at

743
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 2: least it feels like it took years off my life,

744
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 2: even just doing it for maybe four years for long.

745
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: Well, did you cope with drugs and alcohol? No?

746
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: I would have coped with alcohol, but my body just can't,

747
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 2: you like, my digestive system just can't handle it. Or

748
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: I would have drunk heavily.

749
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. You said you were willing to

750
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: do anything. Do you think that was because you were

751
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: older thirty or you were unique individuals? You were college graduates.

752
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: Why were you willing to do anything and do all

753
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: this work?

754
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: I think we had decided, Well, Jason, I would I

755
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 2: try to speak for the other guys. First. Jason had

756
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: been through this with Love Battery, and the whole time

757
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 2: we're going through it with the Presidency's like, you, guys,

758
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 2: you don't understand. This is not how it works. You

759
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 2: don't just walk in and everybody wants to sign you.

760
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 2: We were out, you know, Love Battery was out beating

761
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 2: the bushes, you know, put out three records on subpop,

762
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: toured the country twenty times in a van. He's like,

763
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: this is not normal. So I think he was just

764
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: super psyched to get a shot and do it, you know,

765
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: with with a lot of juice behind it. I think

766
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 2: for Chris and myself, you know, we, as I said,

767
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 2: like Chris doing his kids music thing, were people who like,

768
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 2: if you're going to do something, do it right. Actually,

769
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: you know my dad who has passed, that's one of his.

770
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 2: When I asked my parents as they've gotten older, my

771
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 2: other my stepdad, mom are still alive, like, what's some

772
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 2: advice my dad's his number one was whatever you do

773
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: do it well. You know, if you're going to do something,

774
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: give it everything. So we and I also think we

775
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 2: felt like we can do it on our own terms.

776
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 2: So we didn't feel like anybody was pushing us. We

777
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: felt like we're making all the choices here. We're not

778
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 2: going to do anything that we do. We agreed among

779
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 2: the three of us we're not doing anything we don't

780
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: all three of us don't want to do.

781
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: So okay, tell me about making the videos, which we're

782
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: all over empty.

783
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: The videos were fun, you know. We did the first

784
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 2: few videos with Roman Coppola, who was just a lovely,

785
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 2: awesome dude, and he came up to Seattle. We made

786
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 2: the Lump video in.

787
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: What was the connection? How did you get cooked up

788
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: with them?

789
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 2: With Roman? You know? Weirdly, it turned out that I

790
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: went to Colorado College just for one year of my

791
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 2: freshman year, and it turned out that I one of

792
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: my classmates was somebody he went to high school with.

793
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: So we ended up having a weird connection. But we

794
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 2: had no connection. We just got set a bunch of

795
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 2: reels and we loved he had made a couple of

796
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 2: videos at that point. He might have made a Rentals

797
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 2: video and maybe a Green Day video. I can't remember.

798
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 2: We just liked his videos the best, and we liked

799
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 2: him the most, and we talked to him on the phone,

800
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: and it was a great choice. He was a soup.

801
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: We were totally simpatico with him. We were on the

802
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 2: same wavelength, so.

803
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: Well, you know, you talked to most acts. It happened

804
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: so fast and retrosect. They said, we didn't really have

805
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: any control. It was the director's vision. It's not really

806
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: what we want or wanted. What did you feel?

807
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 2: I love the videos. I think that the Lump. There

808
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 2: are two Lump videos, one of which they wanted We

809
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 2: Columbia wanted MTV to play both. They wouldn't play the

810
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 2: second one because it had Chris jumping up and down

811
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 2: on a tiny battery powered amplifier that was set on

812
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 2: fire in his backyard while we had a barbecue, and

813
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 2: they thought that was too violent. But the first one,

814
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 2: you know, shows us in starts with us in the

815
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: swamp in the arboretum, which is kind of in the

816
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 2: university area in in Seattle, which is like a mile

817
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 2: from where I grew up and a mile from where

818
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,959
Speaker 2: Chris and I went to middle school and high school together.

819
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 2: So and then the barge that we're out on in

820
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 2: Elliott Bay at the end, that's my stepdad's barge or

821
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: was he was in the tug and barge business. So

822
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: they were out there with my stepdad driving us around

823
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 2: doing our things. So the whole thing felt very you know,

824
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 2: natural and like us. And then the Peaches video, which

825
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 2: you know was we fight the Ninjas and the and

826
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: that was great. Roman came to us and he's like, Peaches,

827
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 2: do you guys have any ideas? And he just had, like,

828
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 2: what if we're under a tree and has Kansas Peaches

829
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 2: hanging out? He's like, yeah, that's great, but that's dumb.

830
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 2: So that's how it starts. And at the time he

831
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 2: was super into these you know, b movie martial arts movies.

832
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 2: He's like, what if you guys fight ninjas at the end.

833
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 2: We're like, like that found sounds awesome. So we spent

834
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 2: the day with the Hollywood ninjas and got launched off

835
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 2: ramps and you know, it was it was blast. I

836
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 2: don't know, he got our sensibility that we were just

837
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 2: taking the piss and having a good time. And the

838
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 2: whole thing. I think our take on the whole thing

839
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 2: as we went through is that ultimately, you know, pop

840
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 2: culture is a cosmic joke, right. The art can be

841
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 2: beautiful and very real and very powerful even if you're

842
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 2: quote unquote goofy like we are. It's you know, I mean,

843
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 2: listen to the Beatles, Like one in three Beatles songs

844
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: is Goofy. Chuck Berry's the Goofy is motherfucking lyricist of

845
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 2: all time and he's still the best. But it's it's

846
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 2: authentic art. But it's still a piss take, you know.

847
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: That's the fun of it. That's that's what rock and

848
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 2: roll is. It's supposed to be fun, you know, it's

849
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 2: supposed to be a laugh.

850
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, you're on MTV. They're banging these videos. Do

851
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 1: you start to get recognized?

852
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 2: Got recognized. I'm a pretty normal looking dude, you know,

853
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 2: I didn't Chris Jason. Already everybody in Seattle knew who

854
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,919
Speaker 2: was at that time. For a few years, I would

855
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:29,240
Speaker 2: get recognized in Seattle on the Seattle side of the water,

856
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 2: you know, kind of in neighborhoods where people are younger

857
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 2: and hipper. I had moved as soon as we all

858
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 2: got a big publishing check. I bought a house on

859
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 2: the east side of Lake Washington. And even just going

860
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: across the water to the suburbs, I would like the

861
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 2: beer guy at the grocery store would recognize me occasionally,

862
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 2: but very rarely and the only time sort of will

863
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: maybe get there. But our first record was big in

864
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 2: the US, but it was absolutely mega in Australia. I

865
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: don't know how many times platinum it is now Australia.

866
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 2: The first time we went was the one time where

867
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 2: it was weird where they're like we had aliases at

868
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,439
Speaker 2: the hotels, but there would still be forty or fifty

869
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 2: kids in the lobby freaking out when you'd come through

870
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 2: and that for my money. I don't know that. I

871
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: didn't like that. I think that would be miserable to

872
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 2: be that famous.

873
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: I will okay, So now you start working, do you

874
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: start as a headliner, do you open for other people?

875
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 1: How frequently are you working?

876
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 2: We went on tours soon as we finished that promo

877
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: tour in September of ninety five, the next kind of year.

878
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 2: I actually think we overdid it the first year, and

879
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 2: that's kind of what killed us because between start of

880
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: August nineteen ninety five and the end of August nineteen

881
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 2: ninety six, we toured the US sort of two and

882
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: a half times, went to Continental Europe or the UK

883
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 2: ten times, went to Japan for ten days, went to

884
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: Australia for three and a half week, and recorded our

885
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 2: second record all in a year or thirteen months. So

886
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: we just went out and hammered and Columbia. You know,

887
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 2: as at the time, major labels really tried to sequence

888
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: the timing of releases so that the band or the

889
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 2: artists could go from territory to territory and promote things sequentially.

890
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 2: I think our record, my understanding, was somewhat blew up

891
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 2: organically in many many territories at once, and so they

892
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: wanted us to be everywhere at once. So I'm not

893
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: sure that we ever fully capitalized like the time when

894
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 2: we could have been doing our most lucrative touring in

895
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,919
Speaker 2: the US in early nineteen ninety six. You know, let's

896
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 2: go back to Germany for the fourth time and see

897
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: if we can break that, because the time they were

898
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 2: the maybe third biggest market after the US and Japan.

899
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: So we we tried to be everywhere on tour. So

900
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 2: we started in a van and we always headlined. We

901
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 2: got offers, you know, I'll never we had offers to

902
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 2: The best offer when we started out was ac DC.

903
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: That was just the most I just still wonder somebody

904
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 2: would have climbed on stage and actually killed one of

905
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 2: us by the middle of the second song if we'd

906
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 2: been out there opening for ac DC. But for some

907
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 2: reason they wanted to open for us. We other offers.

908
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 2: Lenny Kravitz wanted us to open for us, but again

909
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 2: we just decided, now we want to do it the

910
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: way we want to do it. And a lot of

911
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 2: the time we had our friends' bands come open for us,

912
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: sometimes probably to the detriment of the bill, and they

913
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 2: get booed, and you know, we had I don't know

914
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 2: if you know. He is Jesse Dayton, who's like a

915
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 2: career honky tnker from Beaumont. Originally we connected with him.

916
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 2: He was friends with the Supersuckers and I love the guy,

917
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 2: love honky talk music. We had him open for us

918
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 2: for like two weeks in Texas and Oklahoma, and you know,

919
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 2: people didn't get it, but we didn't care.

920
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, you're on the road. Are you partaking

921
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: of the fruits of the road.

922
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,439
Speaker 2: At that point, I'm thirty, I'm married. My stomach can't

923
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 2: handle heavy drinking, so now I'm just pretty much trying

924
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: to survive. I was a true blue guy to my

925
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:11,280
Speaker 2: ex wife.

926
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 1: I was not.

927
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 2: I was not partaking. Chris was also married, Jason was not.

928
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: Okay, she's your ex wife. How long were you married?

929
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 1: Why you divorced?

930
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 2: Been divorced for a few years and married for a

931
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 2: long long time twenty plus So what caused the divorce

932
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 2: just didn't work out? I don't feel like it's I

933
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: have a bully pulpit to tell the story. My ex

934
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 2: wife does not, So I'll just leave it as the

935
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,320
Speaker 2: gracious thing to say, is I just think it nothing horrible, nothing,

936
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 2: nobody did anything awful.

937
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: Okay, who wanted the divorce? And it's never mutual?

938
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a hard question too. If I had to

939
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: answer that question with my life on the line, I

940
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 2: would say that ultimately I wanted the divorce, but oddly

941
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 2: my wife was the one who filed.

942
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 1: But okay, so you're thirty, you're already married. When did

943
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: you meet this woman and when did you get married?

944
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 2: We had been together for a long time. We had

945
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 2: been together since we were twenty five and twenty two,

946
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:13,280
Speaker 2: and we got married.

947
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: So how'd you meet her?

948
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 2: Just friend? A friend actually you know, weirdly name dropper story.

949
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 2: She used to go out with one of my best

950
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 2: friend's younger brothers and their mom lived on the water

951
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,800
Speaker 2: on Lake Washington in a house that Duff McKagan is

952
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 2: also an old Seattle homie lives in now and bought

953
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 2: from their mom years ago. Just hanging out at this

954
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 2: friend's house was down the street from my house, and

955
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 2: we met her then. We were friends. We're from the

956
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 2: same social circle. We're friends for three or four years

957
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 2: before we started going out.

958
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: Okay, you're going to graduate school. What is she doing?

959
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 2: She was an artist and had gone undergrad in art

960
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 2: and went to MFAT in California for a year, but

961
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 2: then was living in Seattle and working and making her paintings.

962
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: What did she think about all of this with the presidents?

963
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 2: I think she thought it was fun. I mean, she

964
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 2: liked going on the parts of it that you know,

965
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: Japan's fun. Oklahoma in December is not as fun, but

966
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 2: you know, I think she thought it was pretty cool.

967
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:17,240
Speaker 2: She was an artist herself.

968
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: How often did she come with you?

969
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 2: Usually to the fun places, like I said, you know,

970
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 2: to go to Europe, go to Australia, go to Japan.

971
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 2: So a fair amount of the time, as much as

972
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 2: we can muster she was working for at the start.

973
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 2: She was still working full time before she quit, so

974
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 2: once she quit, she came more often.

975
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 1: Okay, do you have kids.

976
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 2: I have two wonderful daughters, twenty two and twenty four.

977
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: And what are they up to?

978
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 2: They are both recent graduates of Enemy of the State,

979
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 2: Columbia University, and one of them is still living in

980
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 2: New York working as a paralegal. She's going to law

981
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 2: school next year, and the others in New York right

982
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 2: now visiting some friends and her undergraduate degree is and architecture.

983
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 2: So younger one graduated last spring and older one a

984
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,359
Speaker 2: year and a half ago, and younger ones just hanging

985
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 2: out and joining life for the moment and figuring out

986
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 2: what to do.

987
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned earlier that Columbia made tens of millions

988
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 1: of dollars. Hey, do you think that was that much?

989
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: And how much did you make? And do you think

990
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: money slipped through your fingers you got ripped off?

991
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 2: I think there are three parts to that question. One is,

992
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: you know, something people don't talk about that's always interesting

993
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 2: is sort of you know, in the film business they

994
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 2: talk about box office, right, what's opening weekend? What is

995
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 2: a move? What box office? That's ticket sales? Right? And

996
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 2: then sort of as a side card of that, to

997
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 2: help us think about it, it's often noted that while

998
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 2: the music business hasn't always been the biggest media business

999
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 2: relative to film or publishing, it's been the most lucrative.

1000
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 2: And this is why. Is you take a record like ours,

1001
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 2: which costs Colombia nothing to make, right, it was already made.

1002
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 2: It didn't cost them that much to sign us. They

1003
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 2: gave us a few hundred thousand dollars in advance, and

1004
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 2: they spent you know, our marketing campaign was aggressive, but

1005
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 2: I don't think it was very expensive for them, right,

1006
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 2: So let's say they spent under a million dollars including

1007
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 2: probably you know, sunk costs of staff to sign us

1008
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 2: and launch the record. The record sells. I think it

1009
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 2: ultimately worldwide sold probably five million copies. Let's say that

1010
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 2: are accounted for. So retail price of those, if you

1011
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: look at the box office, right, that's seventy five million

1012
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 2: dollars right at let's say average price of fifteen dollars

1013
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 2: a ticket. Now, I'm not privy to the exact numbers

1014
00:52:57,920 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 2: for their their what they got out of the whole

1015
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 2: all on each one of those, but let's say they

1016
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 2: made six or seven dollars a record. If you can

1017
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 2: make you know, thirty five to forty million dollars on

1018
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 2: a six hundred thousand dollars investment, that's pretty good. So

1019
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 2: the record business and the record business is even better

1020
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 2: now because they don't have to fucking make anything or

1021
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 2: ship it anywhere, right, they don't have to do any

1022
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 2: of that. They just you know, press a button and

1023
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 2: release it on all major streaming services. So, yes, Columbia

1024
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 2: made a lot of money off of us, and that's,

1025
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: you know, which is great, and we were happy to

1026
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 2: make that, you know, devil's bargain. We went in with

1027
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 2: eyes wide open. We wanted to be everywhere. We wanted

1028
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 2: to reach as many places as possible. So if you

1029
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 2: look at us, we're getting whatever, sixteen points or eighteen

1030
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 2: points on wholesale, on retail, and you know, we the

1031
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 2: first year where the numbers started coming in. I think

1032
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 2: over a couple of years, I probably made just over

1033
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 2: two million dollars before taxes.

1034
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: Okay, you're thirty years old. You manage that money well,

1035
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: I like to think.

1036
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 2: So I'm comfortable, and I think my ex wife is

1037
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 2: reasonably comfortable, and I think I did. I mean, I

1038
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 2: had good money manager, bought really nice piece of real

1039
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 2: estate in one of the most expensive zip codes in

1040
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 2: the country and which I sold a couple of years

1041
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 2: ago as part of my divorce settlement, and all those

1042
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 2: things seem to have gone pretty well. And then I

1043
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 2: kept working my ass off. I mean I made I'm

1044
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 2: sure I made.

1045
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: I probably might ok wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, let's

1046
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 1: let's let's park that for a second. The presidents are dead. Okay,

1047
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 1: just for the record, the band is called the President's

1048
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: United States of America because.

1049
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 2: So I told you we were playing as a duo

1050
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 2: in the fall of nineteen ninety three and we're the

1051
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,399
Speaker 2: low Fis. We were pure Frosting. Oh, we're the dynamic duo.

1052
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 2: I'll never forget. Chris called me one must have been

1053
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 2: a Sunday morning, because he would have and out Saturday night.

1054
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 2: He's like, I got the name for the band. I

1055
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 2: got the name for the band. I was at this

1056
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 2: party in North Seattle last night and I was just there.

1057
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 2: There were people jamming in the basement. So I went

1058
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 2: down and started jamming with him and there were like

1059
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 2: nine people listening and they were just everybody was super baked.

1060
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 2: And I was just making up a different song name.

1061
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 2: Between every song. I was like, we're the Electric Bunny Rabbits,

1062
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 2: and you know, I was just trying to get a laugh,

1063
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 2: and he's like, finally between I don't know what I was,

1064
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 2: you know, thinking, I just like, between between two jams,

1065
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 2: I was like, we are the Presidents of the United

1066
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 2: States of America. And he's like, all nine stone people laugh.

1067
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 2: So it's great, let's do it. So we thought it

1068
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 2: was great, given that we were this tiny, little as

1069
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 2: I described, these kind of two skinny, dorky guys with

1070
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 2: little instruments and cheap gear and no real show. The

1071
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 2: grandiosity of the name in juxtaposition to you know, the

1072
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 2: the ridiculous tininess and sort of cultured patheticness of what

1073
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 2: we were doing was a great kind of contrast. It

1074
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 2: became a bit of an albatross, but it worked great

1075
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 2: for what we were trying to represent as we were starting.

1076
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me about it being in albatros.

1077
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 2: Well, you know, then you have to go through the

1078
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 2: whole thing where like the first single comes out in Columbia,

1079
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 2: it's somewhat at our insistence is like, no DJs need

1080
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 2: to call the band by their full name the presidents

1081
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 2: of the United States of America every time they call

1082
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 2: it out, you know, and you know, it's just a

1083
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 2: lot of letters and words. There's a lot of characters,

1084
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 2: and it's you know, the president's is a lot easier.

1085
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 2: And although there was a president's already in a funk

1086
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 2: band I think the seventies.

1087
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 1: But did you have to make a deal with the

1088
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: other band, No.

1089
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:43,399
Speaker 2: We had no issues with them. I mean, I guess

1090
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 2: our name was different. We did have one really interesting thing,

1091
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 2: actually that's apropos of current political climate and the current administration.

1092
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 2: In the interior sleeve of our first record when it

1093
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 2: came out on pop Lama is a picture of the

1094
00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 2: three of us with Bill Clinton, which was a real picture.

1095
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 2: We met him. We played at his rally in Seattle

1096
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,919
Speaker 2: on before Black Tuesday, November nineteen ninety four, when every

1097
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,320
Speaker 2: dem in the fucking country lost. He came into the

1098
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 2: rally in Seattle and the posies and we and a

1099
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 2: local gospel choir played before and he walked through the

1100
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 2: room and we got the picture. And then when the

1101
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 2: record came out with Columbia, their legal counsel would not

1102
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 2: let us use it because you can't use the president's

1103
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,439
Speaker 2: name and likeness for profit. But it turns out maybe

1104
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 2: that's not the case, based on what we're seeing.

1105
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: Now, that's for sure. Okay, let's go back to the

1106
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: publishing deal. Yeah, how did you split up the writing credits?

1107
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 2: So the writing credits? We figured that out before it

1108
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 2: became an issue, which is one of the smartest things

1109
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 2: we did. And frankly, I will take credit for that

1110
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 2: because I could see what the problem and we were

1111
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 2: lucky to have friends who had been through it. Right.

1112
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 2: We're in Seattle in the nineties. We know all these

1113
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 2: people who are already famous in huge rock stars, and

1114
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 2: some of them are childhood friends. So I was talking

1115
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:06,919
Speaker 2: to all those people, and I was reading every book

1116
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 2: I could get on the music business. So I was like,

1117
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 2: we need to figure this out now. So Chris's clearly

1118
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 2: the main writer, and he's written jillions of songs, but

1119
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 2: it's also true that we brought the songs to life,

1120
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 2: and the only life they'll probably ever have was in

1121
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 2: the in the way we represented them in our Masters.

1122
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 2: So we just worked it out. You know, we basically

1123
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 2: split things forty thirty thirty where Chris gets a little,

1124
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 2: he gets a little more that acknowledges that he's the

1125
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 2: primary writer. So it's a long story, short version. We

1126
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 2: do have some complications now because, for various reasons, we

1127
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 2: didn't register them that way. Jason already had been signed

1128
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 2: to Universal Music Publishing Group in a bad deal with

1129
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 2: Love Battery where they all got to quit their barista

1130
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 2: jobs for a what scened at the time a huge

1131
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 2: advance to sign away the rest of their rights forever.

1132
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 2: So we had to manage that a little bit, but

1133
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 2: we choose we split them the way we chose to,

1134
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 2: and then we have to manage bringing them in and

1135
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 2: then dividing them in the math.

1136
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're saying, if we looked at the registration,

1137
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 1: it may say something, but in reality it's forty thirty

1138
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 1: thirty roughly.

1139
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right around in there. Yeah, And that took

1140
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 2: some doing.

1141
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: Took some doing, relative tools, did you.

1142
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 2: Know, personal relationships and Chris Chris wanted to be partly

1143
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 2: felt like he deserved more compensation, but in a lot

1144
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 2: of ways just more recognition too, you know, as being

1145
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 2: the primary songwriter. So it took a lot of it

1146
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 2: took a few deep conversations. Let's put it.

1147
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: Well, you said forty thirty thirty, and then all of

1148
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 1: a sudden you said something like.

1149
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 2: That, Well it's like twenty nine and a half. Twenty

1150
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 2: nine and a half.

1151
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, okay, do you own the publishing.

1152
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,439
Speaker 2: We own all but the share that Jason controls, which

1153
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,919
Speaker 2: he had signed a deal with PolyGram Universal Music Publishing Group,

1154
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 2: still controls it, and we have tried to negotiate with

1155
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:02,439
Speaker 2: them a number of times to just buy it back

1156
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 2: unsuccessfully to date.

1157
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 1: Okay, if there's a licensing deal or anything, does PolyGram,

1158
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 1: whoever the title of the company is today, do they

1159
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 1: have any input or they just get a check.

1160
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 2: They get a check and they've agreed to everything, and

1161
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 2: we it would be nice to have it all right now.

1162
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 2: The share the portions that Chris and I control are

1163
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 2: administered by Cobalt. We've had many different publishing agreements over

1164
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 2: the last thirty years, but we've been with Cobalt for

1165
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 2: a while. UMPG's never had an issue with anything. We've

1166
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 2: wanted the license because if we can get Jason's back,

1167
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 2: then we're completely one stop shop for the debut record

1168
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 2: because control the masters.

1169
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 1: Okay, have you had any offers to buy these songs?

1170
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 3: We have had.

1171
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 2: We have never seriously entertained any offers, but we occasionally

1172
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 2: get offers, and you know, I think we might have

1173
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 2: gotten to this via email that for us, the time

1174
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 2: value equation with money just does and the offers never

1175
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 2: high enough to pay out versus what we make right

1176
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 2: now owning the rights and just taking the income from

1177
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 2: streaming services.

1178
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 1: Okay, so what multiple would you entertain.

1179
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 2: The multiple would need to be It would need to

1180
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 2: be over twenty.

1181
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: So if I came, you know, that's hard to get.

1182
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: But in the heyday of hypnosis, who may or may

1183
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 1: not have been interested, somebody comes in with a twenty

1184
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: three multiple, you're in.

1185
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe the problem is it's pretty easy to do

1186
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 2: the time value. It's easy to look. Okay, let's say

1187
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: we do for a multiple of twenty and we get

1188
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 2: million dollars. Okay, we pay taxes on that. We got

1189
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 2: to pay some capital gains tax on it, we got

1190
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 2: to pay various state and federal taxes. We each net

1191
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 2: you know, let's say somewhere in two thirds to three

1192
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 2: quarters of that, our third of that, and Conrad Uno too,

1193
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 2: he owns a quarter of the masters. So we take

1194
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 2: that and then you sort of if you just do

1195
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 2: the math, so like, okay, let's put that in an

1196
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 2: income bearing investment, put it in the market. You can

1197
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 2: take three to five percent a year, right, sort of

1198
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 2: safely while preserving the capital. And that number has just

1199
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 2: never reached what we're each making from publishing and masters

1200
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 2: every year, from the money we're getting from the business.

1201
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 2: It's never even really gotten close. And as Jason pointed

1202
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 2: out the last time we talked about this, he really

1203
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 2: enjoys having a hedge against the markets, right, we all

1204
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 2: have investments in financial markets and or real estate. And

1205
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 2: he's like, well, hey, you know, I'm pretty sure people

1206
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 2: are still going to stream our record during the next recession,

1207
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 2: so it's a way to be diversified. So the multiple

1208
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 2: would have to be pretty high for us all to

1209
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 2: just go yep, we'll take it.

1210
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 1: But also, you're a sophisticated guy. You worked with the Amazon, etc.

1211
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 1: Can you also see in the thirty years since the

1212
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 1: record was a hit that there been more opportunities such

1213
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: for monetization that could not have been envisioned. Has that

1214
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: been a factor?

1215
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 2: It is a factor, and there are more opportunities for monetization.

1216
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 2: And one of the arguments for selling the asset or

1217
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 2: part of it would be that somebody else could make

1218
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 2: better use of it. Right. Like I said, we're pretty

1219
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 2: laissez fair punk rock. We just basically sit on this thing.

1220
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 2: We don't do much to promote it, and somebody who's

1221
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 2: craftier and I'm not sure it's private equity companies buying

1222
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 2: musical copyrights, but there are certain buyers who are going

1223
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 2: to work the asset. They may be able to Those

1224
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 2: have been the deals that have been more interesting are like,

1225
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 2: maybe sell part of it, but we have an interest

1226
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 2: in the upside if they figure out a way to

1227
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 2: have it make more money from some of these newer avenues.

1228
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 1: Okay, at this late date, overall for the presidents, what

1229
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 1: percentage of the income is from masters and what percentage

1230
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 1: from publishing.

1231
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 2: It's kind of what you'd expect. It breaks down on

1232
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 2: that sort of I'd say seventy thirty to eighty twenty.

1233
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 2: Seventy thirty at most to publishing, probably more like eighty twenty.

1234
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: Okay. I realize every year is not identical, but if

1235
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 1: you took an average year and the three of you

1236
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 1: got paid before taxes, is there enough to live on.

1237
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 2: There's enough to live on. Now that I'm a guy

1238
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 2: who has a partner who works, and I'm not paying

1239
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 2: my kids tuition at Columbia anymore, and you know, I'm

1240
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 2: sort of in that contracting phase of my life. I

1241
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 2: think when I was in the expanse of trying to

1242
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:53,720
Speaker 2: raise a family in an upper middle class way, if

1243
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 2: one of us were a solo artist, it would be

1244
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:58,040
Speaker 2: enough for me as an individual, it wouldn't be enough.

1245
01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:01,200
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful annuity for me that pays a lot.

1246
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 1: Okay at this moment in time, do you have any

1247
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 1: other income, active income as opposed to investments?

1248
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:08,959
Speaker 2: Nope?

1249
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is it. Okay, let's go back, so

1250
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 1: five years. You essentially get the record, the master back

1251
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 1: in the year two thousand, year two thousand and one

1252
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 1: or whatever.

1253
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 2: Two thousand and three, we got it back two.

1254
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 1: Thousand and three, Different economic landscape, different distribution, etc. What

1255
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:31,800
Speaker 1: do you do now that you have the record?

1256
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 2: Well, first we have a long conversation of do we

1257
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 2: want to just do another deal with Sony and let

1258
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 2: them keep it, which of course they were interested in doing.

1259
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 2: Do we want to you know, get it back ourselves.

1260
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:45,440
Speaker 2: Do we want to talk to other labels? We decided

1261
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 2: because since as I said, we've always taken this fairly

1262
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:53,440
Speaker 2: DIY contrarian let's do it our way approach, well, let's

1263
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 2: do it ourselves. And so we took it back. We

1264
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 2: created our own little label, and we were lucky that

1265
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 2: us getting it back and sort of you know, as

1266
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:05,520
Speaker 2: you would imagine, it took Sony Columbia years to wind

1267
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:10,360
Speaker 2: down their physical you know, inventory and account for all

1268
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:12,680
Speaker 2: of it, and there were a lot of heated exchanges

1269
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:16,680
Speaker 2: where it looked like they were wilfully, wilfully still selling

1270
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 2: it while they didn't have the rights, which I don't

1271
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 2: think was the case. I think it's just, you know,

1272
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 2: as the saying goes, never assume mal intent when simple

1273
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:28,959
Speaker 2: incompetence will explain the problem. So it took a few years.

1274
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:31,959
Speaker 2: But as that happened, the iTunes store launched right, which,

1275
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 2: as you know, was from like four to twenty twelve,

1276
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 2: was the only music store in the world that mattered.

1277
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 2: And at the time we got the rights back, we

1278
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 2: had reformed and we were touring, and we had a

1279
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 2: new management team that included a guy you probably know,

1280
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 2: Mike Tiraney, who was kind of it. He's he has

1281
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:53,880
Speaker 2: my old job at Amazon now actually running music programming,

1282
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 2: but he was he's been at labels, PD easton radio. Everything.

1283
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 1: Just just go back in the hey, hey, who was

1284
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 1: the manager?

1285
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 2: A woman named Stacy Slater, who's oh.

1286
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 1: No, but it sounds like you got rid of her

1287
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 1: at some point now time.

1288
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 2: We were trying to get rid of her. Right as

1289
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 2: we broke up the first time we were we were

1290
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 2: talking to all the people.

1291
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 1: Okay, so she rode the ship to the end. Okay,

1292
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 1: she got a new manager.

1293
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:20,400
Speaker 2: Keep going anyway. So Mike was connected with everybody, and

1294
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 2: at the time he knew somebody at iTunes and we

1295
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 2: were able to get We did a deal with what

1296
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 2: was then Iota that gradually got folded in as part

1297
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 2: of the Orchard, now Kevin Arnold. So we did a

1298
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 2: deal with him for all the other digital distribution, which

1299
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 2: accounted to Bubkas in two thousand and four, two thousand

1300
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 2: and five, and we were lucky we did a deal.

1301
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 2: We were like the last micro label to do a

1302
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 2: deal directly with Apple. Somehow Tyranny knew somebody. We got in.

1303
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 2: We basically had one record on our label. We later

1304
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:51,919
Speaker 2: had two or three more that don't matter that we own,

1305
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 2: and so we had direct distribution to Apple from through

1306
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,640
Speaker 2: the whole heyday of the iTunes store, and we were

1307
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 2: just and are you know they were taking their thirty

1308
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 2: percent off the top and we're getting our seventy percent

1309
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 2: on every sale. It was beautiful and that ramped up quickly.

1310
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 2: And what was really interesting was we're still getting statements

1311
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:16,360
Speaker 2: from Sony right. So by by the two thousand and one,

1312
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:19,519
Speaker 2: two thousand and two, we're selling like worldwide, like one

1313
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 2: thousand records a month. Okay, looking at the statements, nothing right,

1314
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 2: and we're getting you know, bupkus on those we're getting

1315
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 2: a buck maybe a year. Immediately with the launch of

1316
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 2: the iTunes store, not only are we you know, we

1317
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 2: own it, so we're getting seventy percent instead of fifteen percent.

1318
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:41,679
Speaker 2: We're our volume. All of a sudden, you're selling like, okay,

1319
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:44,639
Speaker 2: we're selling a thousand records, which is track equivalent maybe

1320
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:47,799
Speaker 2: fifteen thousand tracks a month. Right, all of a sudden,

1321
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:52,680
Speaker 2: we're selling you know, like, you know, tens of thousands

1322
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 2: of tracks a month. You know what that was? The

1323
01:08:56,120 --> 01:08:58,479
Speaker 2: bizarre thing was like, I get it, the margin was

1324
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:02,639
Speaker 2: way better, but the vaulme was way higher too, which

1325
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:04,519
Speaker 2: was just mine.

1326
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 1: So what do you what do you think it counts

1327
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 1: for that?

1328
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:11,320
Speaker 2: I think people were it was. You got to give

1329
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 2: credit to Steve Jobs for seeing the appetite there and

1330
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:19,519
Speaker 2: somehow talking the labels in. I don't I was not privy.

1331
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:21,880
Speaker 2: I was not really in the trenches in the digital

1332
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 2: music industry at that time. But I don't know how

1333
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 2: all that went down, But he solved the problem for them,

1334
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 2: and they sort of solved the problem for him. But

1335
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,759
Speaker 2: that you know, I think everybody who's had a career

1336
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:37,639
Speaker 2: in at a major label or publisher in the last

1337
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:40,080
Speaker 2: twenty years should like go to Steve Jobs' grave like

1338
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:42,560
Speaker 2: twice a year and put flowers on it. And he

1339
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 2: saved the music industry as far as I'm concerned. He

1340
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:47,560
Speaker 2: just figured out something that was simple, easy to do

1341
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 2: between the hardware and the software. Was any numbskull could

1342
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 2: figure it out. You've got your iPod, you download the songs,

1343
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:55,839
Speaker 2: you put it on there, you take them everywhere.

1344
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:59,599
Speaker 3: You know, it just works as the saying goes okay

1345
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 3: was the adoption. The sales were those up because in

1346
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:11,360
Speaker 3: the physical era, maybe the store didn't have your record. Yeah,

1347
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:13,400
Speaker 3: digitally that's what you think was good.

1348
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:16,800
Speaker 2: I think that. And then there was obviously I've never

1349
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:20,040
Speaker 2: been able to really understand how much piracy there was

1350
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 2: in the nineties and into the two thousands, but I

1351
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:26,680
Speaker 2: know I can say based anecdotally that you know, at

1352
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 2: our peak, we would hear, hey, I was just in

1353
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 2: like the Philippines or you know, Columbia, and wow, your

1354
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 2: record was everywhere, Like yeah, I don't think we got

1355
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 2: anything for that, So God knows how much piracy there

1356
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:43,519
Speaker 2: was in the you know, the the industry only has

1357
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:48,520
Speaker 2: itself to blame. They released music on high quality, unencrypted

1358
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:53,360
Speaker 2: digital format for years, right, like pretty easy to copy that, Okay.

1359
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:57,240
Speaker 1: Tell me about the transition from sales to streams.

1360
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:01,760
Speaker 2: Sales to streams just was gradual, and it was kind

1361
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 2: of I saw it from all sides because I was

1362
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 2: at Amazon Music during that really where that transition took

1363
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 2: off kind of. I was at Amazon Music from twenty

1364
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:15,240
Speaker 2: twelve to about twenty seventeen, which is and we conceived

1365
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 2: and launched the Prime Music and Music Unlimited. Then, you know,

1366
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:27,760
Speaker 2: I think Daniel Leck got it done somehow. I don't

1367
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:30,200
Speaker 2: you know that's there. There's a whole story there that

1368
01:11:30,320 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 2: I'm sure you can have people on the show who

1369
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:34,000
Speaker 2: can tell better than I can, and I'm not sure

1370
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:34,400
Speaker 2: I can.

1371
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:36,479
Speaker 1: Tell you a lot. But that's not really my question.

1372
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:40,559
Speaker 1: My question is, as it goes to streaming, your income

1373
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 1: go down up or stay the same.

1374
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 2: It's gone up just because because I think more just

1375
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:52,080
Speaker 2: the digital music market grew, right. It's every market has

1376
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:55,000
Speaker 2: kind of an S curve growth, right, It's slow and

1377
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:57,439
Speaker 2: then it ramps up and it's in the steep part

1378
01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:59,519
Speaker 2: and then it's now it's leveling off right where at

1379
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:01,800
Speaker 2: the top half half of the S curve now, So

1380
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:06,240
Speaker 2: I think we are seeing more income. But I can't

1381
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:09,479
Speaker 2: tell you if the iTunes store was still dominant and

1382
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:12,599
Speaker 2: just the digital music market had grown. But I don't

1383
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:14,720
Speaker 2: think the digital music market would have grown if we'd

1384
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:16,960
Speaker 2: stuck with ninety nine cent MP three's. I just think

1385
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 2: there were that was a.

1386
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:20,800
Speaker 1: Moment in time, just like we have a moment in

1387
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,519
Speaker 1: time for eight tracks, cassettes, et cetera. Right, But leaving

1388
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:29,880
Speaker 1: that in the rear view mirror conventional wisdom, forget about

1389
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:33,920
Speaker 1: knowledgeable people or people who work for these companies. You

1390
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 1: hear it every minute of the day. Spotify is ripping

1391
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:41,920
Speaker 1: me off, They're not paying me, blah blah blah. What

1392
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 1: is your experience with the presidents?

1393
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:49,080
Speaker 2: Yes, Spotify is not ripping anybody off. And Spotify can't

1394
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 2: come out and say you have a shitty deal with

1395
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 2: your label. They can't defend themselves because they'll piss off

1396
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:58,600
Speaker 2: their most important partners. I mean, the whole thing is,

1397
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 2: don't I don't even know why or how. And in Spotify,

1398
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 2: even on their own, they don't disclose everything. But if

1399
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:07,800
Speaker 2: you dig into their website, they pretty much tell you

1400
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:11,000
Speaker 2: exactly how they do business if you want to know

1401
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:14,000
Speaker 2: if you're an artist or a label. So it is

1402
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:17,559
Speaker 2: hard math obviously, if you have one hundred let's say

1403
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 2: that you only had one hundred Spotify paying subscribers, and

1404
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 2: they're each paying ten dollars a month. If you're trying,

1405
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:26,160
Speaker 2: you can't pay a penny rate, right because one month

1406
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:28,880
Speaker 2: those hundred people might stream five songs each, but the

1407
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:31,360
Speaker 2: next month they might stream one hundred songs each. So

1408
01:13:31,479 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 2: there is some very tricky math to how it all

1409
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:37,320
Speaker 2: works out, and at least so far, it hasn't gone

1410
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:39,360
Speaker 2: the way of the black boxes, you know, some of

1411
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 2: the pros where you're not sure. I think the math

1412
01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:46,800
Speaker 2: is pretty clear and fair, and I just don't see

1413
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:49,960
Speaker 2: I don't get it. I mean, I get that somebody's

1414
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:52,800
Speaker 2: resentful because things aren't the way they want it to be.

1415
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 2: But too bad. It's not Spotify or Amazon Music or

1416
01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:01,240
Speaker 2: Apple Music that's screwing you. It's most likely, in most cases,

1417
01:14:01,280 --> 01:14:03,520
Speaker 2: you have a bad deal with your label or your distributor,

1418
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:07,639
Speaker 2: or no one is listening. Well, there's that's a whole

1419
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:10,280
Speaker 2: other thing. And as I've said sort of started. You know,

1420
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 2: from the start of the digital anybody can make a

1421
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:14,720
Speaker 2: good sounding record in their bedroom now, right. You used

1422
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:16,960
Speaker 2: to have to have a lot of money to have

1423
01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:19,800
Speaker 2: a board and a tape machine and outboard gear that

1424
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 2: it took to make a good sounding recording. I'm using Carmela,

1425
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:26,680
Speaker 2: my engineer friend's laptop right now. You can make a

1426
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 2: killer sounding record on this Mac laptop with just the

1427
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:34,240
Speaker 2: like a one in out right and this microphone that

1428
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:36,519
Speaker 2: I'm talking on right now. You can make a major

1429
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:43,040
Speaker 2: label quality record. But just you know whatever. You know, look,

1430
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 2: Marvin Gay would have been a superstar in like fifteen

1431
01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:50,720
Speaker 2: sixty eight, seventeen sixty eight, nineteen sixty eight, twenty one

1432
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 2: sixty eight quality. You know. Not everybody's that good, you know,

1433
01:14:55,400 --> 01:14:58,600
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's the reality is. And I'm a

1434
01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:02,120
Speaker 2: big believer in the market, the wisdom of the market

1435
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:05,040
Speaker 2: that the cream does actually rise to the top. You know,

1436
01:15:05,160 --> 01:15:08,600
Speaker 2: people know what they like. It's yeah, you still have to.

1437
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 1: Be good, Okay. So you know, there are many avenues

1438
01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 1: of remuneration. There are certainly streams, there's subscriber streams. I

1439
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 1: don't want to get for paid not paid streams on

1440
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:29,040
Speaker 1: Spotify it's irrelevant. But there's streams on Pandora that are

1441
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 1: radio streams. But there's other places where people license music.

1442
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:40,560
Speaker 1: A what percentage of your revenue is purely from the

1443
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 1: traditional streamers Amazon, Apple, you know? And how much is

1444
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: these other areas and what are they?

1445
01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:51,679
Speaker 2: That's a great that's a good question because we've beat

1446
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:53,960
Speaker 2: our heads against this wall for twenty years since we

1447
01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:58,200
Speaker 2: got the rights back. We don't get a ton of film,

1448
01:15:58,320 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 2: TV AD licenses. We've had a couple of good ones

1449
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:02,920
Speaker 2: in the last two years. Last summer we had Bush

1450
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:06,320
Speaker 2: Beer licensed Peaches for a peach flavored beer, which I

1451
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:09,000
Speaker 2: don't want to drink. I don't think I don't think

1452
01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 2: it was in my market. You'll take the check, yeah,

1453
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:17,040
Speaker 2: But we don't get a lot of licenses of that nature,

1454
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:19,639
Speaker 2: and we've never been able to figure out why. We've

1455
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:22,160
Speaker 2: gone through all the options, and anybody who's in the

1456
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:23,960
Speaker 2: industry will know what I'm talking about. You there are

1457
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:26,040
Speaker 2: people who want an exclusive, and I say, they'll go

1458
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:28,040
Speaker 2: out and pitch your stuff to everybody and they'll get

1459
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:31,839
Speaker 2: you placements. That's never worked for us. Chris, my bandmate's

1460
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:34,280
Speaker 2: done more of this. He's found that it's always opportunistic,

1461
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:36,080
Speaker 2: so you just got to be out there. So we

1462
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:39,599
Speaker 2: just very occasionally get stuff. But I have to say

1463
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:44,080
Speaker 2: depend unless it's a weird year, one in three or five,

1464
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:48,400
Speaker 2: like ninety five plus percent of our stuff is just streaming.

1465
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:49,160
Speaker 2: It's straight up.

1466
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:49,560
Speaker 1: You know.

1467
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:52,000
Speaker 2: We've had a few anomaloust things here and there. The

1468
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:54,080
Speaker 2: for a while it looked like as you know, like

1469
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:56,479
Speaker 2: Guitar Hero and rock Band were like, whoa, these are

1470
01:16:56,560 --> 01:16:59,400
Speaker 2: big checks for like three years and then that went away.

1471
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:06,360
Speaker 2: So I keep waiting for the you know, the nineties,

1472
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:11,439
Speaker 2: the nineties John Hughes style nostalgia film She's Lump, where

1473
01:17:11,439 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 2: they're going to give us a two million dollar check.

1474
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:16,920
Speaker 2: Use that is the title track. But you know, we

1475
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:19,559
Speaker 2: haven't figured out how to tap into that vein as

1476
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:22,280
Speaker 2: much as i'd like to. Chris has with his own music,

1477
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:23,320
Speaker 2: but we haven't.

1478
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 1: Okay, who actually does the business for the presidents?

1479
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:32,120
Speaker 2: We do it. I mean I get the emails. I

1480
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:34,400
Speaker 2: mean sometimes they still come to Sony if it's a

1481
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:40,439
Speaker 2: master license for our debut record, because because people will

1482
01:17:40,479 --> 01:17:43,040
Speaker 2: think that you'll have the CD and it says on it,

1483
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 2: but there Sony's great about you know, we have our

1484
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:48,280
Speaker 2: contacts there, they'll email me. So I do most of it.

1485
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:51,640
Speaker 2: Jason does some. Chris is very happy to let us

1486
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:55,759
Speaker 2: do it. Jason, Chris and I both did go to college.

1487
01:17:55,840 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 2: Jason didn't. Although Jason is one of the smartest people

1488
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:01,320
Speaker 2: I've ever met in my life. He absolutely brilliant guy.

1489
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:06,560
Speaker 2: So we have plenty of you know, capability and horsepower.

1490
01:18:07,200 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 2: We do it. We have a business manager, we use

1491
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:12,160
Speaker 2: Summit Business Management down in the Greater LA area, who

1492
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:15,320
Speaker 2: we were introduced to through our friend weird Al who's

1493
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:19,719
Speaker 2: a brilliant, brilliant business person. And we always have a lawyer.

1494
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:22,360
Speaker 2: Our lawyer mostly has been Ed Pearson, who was at

1495
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:25,040
Speaker 2: Warner Chapel for years and up in Seattle for the

1496
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 2: last ten or fifteen years representing Maclamore and Head and

1497
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:31,960
Speaker 2: the Heart and a bunch of artists. So we generally, well,

1498
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:34,439
Speaker 2: we'll have a lawyer and we have a good business manager,

1499
01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:38,120
Speaker 2: and that's enough really for us. We don't need a manager.

1500
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:41,400
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the beginning. So you grow

1501
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:42,799
Speaker 1: up exactly where.

1502
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:45,880
Speaker 2: I grew up in the Seattle area, in the northeast

1503
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 2: part of the town called Laurelhurst, which is like a

1504
01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:52,360
Speaker 2: you know, when I grew up there, it was stay

1505
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:57,880
Speaker 2: at home moms, university professors, professionals. You know, it's a

1506
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:01,479
Speaker 2: nice neighborhood near the University of Washington.

1507
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:03,719
Speaker 1: And what did your parents do for a living?

1508
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:08,720
Speaker 2: My dad was a PR guy. Actually he went his

1509
01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:11,479
Speaker 2: family business is a great story. But my grandpa and

1510
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:16,000
Speaker 2: my uncle ran a fur brokerage business, but my dad

1511
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:19,360
Speaker 2: chose not to go into that business, and he started

1512
01:19:19,600 --> 01:19:23,080
Speaker 2: a PR firm right after the World's Fair in Seattle.

1513
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:26,800
Speaker 2: That's this guy Jay Rocky, who was a legend here

1514
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:29,400
Speaker 2: who got the World's Fair on the cover of Life

1515
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:33,800
Speaker 2: magazine twice. And they started a PR firm in the

1516
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 2: early sixties and they ran that for years till my

1517
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:39,120
Speaker 2: dad retired when he was sixty five. So he was

1518
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 2: a words guy.

1519
01:19:41,280 --> 01:19:44,479
Speaker 1: Okay, how long has your family been in America?

1520
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:49,200
Speaker 2: Four to five generations?

1521
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:51,280
Speaker 1: Do you know why they came?

1522
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:55,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's some of them on my dad's side of

1523
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 2: the family. My paternal grandfather was German and they were

1524
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:04,720
Speaker 2: part of US diaspora of crafts people who went from

1525
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:08,840
Speaker 2: Germany sort of the you know alsace lran like the

1526
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 2: the western part of Germany in the mid nineteenth century

1527
01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:18,160
Speaker 2: to Tsarist Russia to a particular river valley to be

1528
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 2: craftspeople for the czar and there there I've read a

1529
01:20:22,360 --> 01:20:26,719
Speaker 2: book about it. They sort of then dispersed to northern

1530
01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:29,719
Speaker 2: US and Canada, and a lot of them in Texas

1531
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 2: as well. You know, if you drive around Texas there Flugerville,

1532
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:34,880
Speaker 2: there are German place names everywhere. So they moved to

1533
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:41,280
Speaker 2: Saskatchewan or Alberta, my great great grand my great grandfather

1534
01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:45,400
Speaker 2: on my dad's side, and then eventually to Montana. And

1535
01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:49,400
Speaker 2: then my paternal grandfather, who was quite a guy, moved

1536
01:20:49,400 --> 01:20:51,879
Speaker 2: to Seattle sort of before the start of the depression

1537
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:53,840
Speaker 2: and worked his way up from nothing to being the

1538
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:58,400
Speaker 2: owner and president of this big for brokerage house. And

1539
01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:02,479
Speaker 2: then yeah, mom's side mostly Irish, Irish Catholic. You know,

1540
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:04,320
Speaker 2: I don't know how they ended up over here.

1541
01:21:06,200 --> 01:21:06,360
Speaker 1: You know.

1542
01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:10,960
Speaker 2: Another side of the family was French, and weirdly this

1543
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:17,200
Speaker 2: is on my dad's side. My grandparents were originally from

1544
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:20,040
Speaker 2: like five miles away from each other in France and

1545
01:21:20,120 --> 01:21:23,439
Speaker 2: Germany in that Alsace Lran region, which is just bizarre.

1546
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:27,280
Speaker 2: So they came through Yeah, any homesteading in Minnesota.

1547
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:31,320
Speaker 1: Okay, you say your parents were divorced. How old were

1548
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:32,599
Speaker 1: you when they got divorced.

1549
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:34,880
Speaker 2: I was eight when they split up.

1550
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:37,000
Speaker 1: Okay, how many kids in the family?

1551
01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:43,200
Speaker 2: Myself and my sister Claire, who's a writer, and she's older, younger,

1552
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:45,880
Speaker 2: she's two and a half years younger than I am,

1553
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:47,760
Speaker 2: and she's way more famous than I am.

1554
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:51,800
Speaker 1: Now it's okay, But what's it like when your parents

1555
01:21:51,880 --> 01:21:52,880
Speaker 1: divorced when you're ead?

1556
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:57,400
Speaker 2: I think it sucked. I don't think at the time

1557
01:21:57,520 --> 01:22:01,479
Speaker 2: I was able to really process that. I think I'm

1558
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:05,880
Speaker 2: incredibly lucky that my dad, my mom, and my stepdad

1559
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:10,320
Speaker 2: whom my mom, they're still together and they got them

1560
01:22:10,360 --> 01:22:13,680
Speaker 2: getting together as part of my parents splitting up. Are

1561
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:17,360
Speaker 2: all like I thought this was normal, But they are

1562
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:23,320
Speaker 2: all like kind reasonable, rational people who don't lose their tempers,

1563
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:26,640
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, I just I didn't know how

1564
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:29,080
Speaker 2: much I hit the jackpot with my family until I

1565
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:33,800
Speaker 2: got older and saw friends, families and more dysfunction. So

1566
01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:37,840
Speaker 2: somehow it was okay. I think, you know, there was

1567
01:22:38,240 --> 01:22:40,439
Speaker 2: maybe if anything was missing, it was maybe a chance

1568
01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:42,679
Speaker 2: to actually get pissed off when I was that young

1569
01:22:43,240 --> 01:22:44,760
Speaker 2: and sort of expressed.

1570
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:46,800
Speaker 1: Me Okay, but you're your parents are divorce in a

1571
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:50,439
Speaker 1: totally different era now, it's all you know in terms

1572
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:52,760
Speaker 1: of back dead. A lot of times the kid lived

1573
01:22:52,840 --> 01:22:55,720
Speaker 1: with one parent, usually the mother. You know, there's not

1574
01:22:55,880 --> 01:22:58,120
Speaker 1: the co parenting there was. What was it like for you?

1575
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:01,560
Speaker 2: We lived mostly with my mom and stayed in the

1576
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:03,920
Speaker 2: same house that we'd been in, and my dad after

1577
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:06,479
Speaker 2: a year or two moved into super cool house boat

1578
01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:08,160
Speaker 2: that my sister and I own now kind of like

1579
01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:11,920
Speaker 2: Sleepless in Seattle, down on Lake Union in Seattle. And

1580
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:15,280
Speaker 2: he had some other partners in his life, but never long.

1581
01:23:15,439 --> 01:23:19,479
Speaker 2: You know, he never remarried. And we would spend you know,

1582
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:23,240
Speaker 2: one to three days a week with him in the winter,

1583
01:23:23,439 --> 01:23:26,600
Speaker 2: like every weekend we went skiing with him. Summertime, we

1584
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:29,080
Speaker 2: go hiking, go to the mountains with him for weeks

1585
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 2: at a time, and so we saw both of them often.

1586
01:23:32,360 --> 01:23:34,479
Speaker 2: We didn't split fifty to fifty. We really did live

1587
01:23:34,520 --> 01:23:34,960
Speaker 2: at my mom.

1588
01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:38,320
Speaker 1: Okay, you have a bad day in school, would you

1589
01:23:38,479 --> 01:23:39,200
Speaker 1: call your father?

1590
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:43,320
Speaker 2: I'd call my mom. My mom was my emotional support.

1591
01:23:43,479 --> 01:23:45,960
Speaker 2: My dad was a very loving, supportive guy, but my

1592
01:23:46,080 --> 01:23:48,040
Speaker 2: mom was definitely my primary parent.

1593
01:23:48,560 --> 01:23:50,400
Speaker 1: And what was the story with your stepfather.

1594
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 2: My stepfather, interestingly, is younger. My mom is eight years

1595
01:23:55,840 --> 01:23:58,240
Speaker 2: younger than my dad was, and my stepdad is eight

1596
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 2: years younger than my mom, so he he only sixteen

1597
01:24:01,240 --> 01:24:04,240
Speaker 2: years older than I am. And he was a pretty

1598
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:06,200
Speaker 2: young guy when he and my mom got together. He

1599
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:08,840
Speaker 2: would have been in maybe twenty four, my mom would

1600
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:12,280
Speaker 2: have been thirty two. And he just turned out to

1601
01:24:12,320 --> 01:24:14,519
Speaker 2: be an awesome guy. Just I mean, the whole thing

1602
01:24:14,600 --> 01:24:17,400
Speaker 2: on paper is just a fucking disaster if you think

1603
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:21,000
Speaker 2: about it. It should have been horrible, but somehow everybody

1604
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:27,639
Speaker 2: was thoughtful and tolerant, and it was in some ways

1605
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:31,000
Speaker 2: I benefited because I saw even more. We ended up

1606
01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:33,640
Speaker 2: doing things through what my stepdad wanted to do that

1607
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:35,479
Speaker 2: I never would have gotten to do, which.

1608
01:24:35,400 --> 01:24:37,320
Speaker 1: Was and would your stepdad do for a living?

1609
01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:39,599
Speaker 2: He when he and my mom got together, he ran

1610
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:42,600
Speaker 2: He was the production manager for Conley Water Skis. He

1611
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:45,040
Speaker 2: was just a kind of crafty. He had gotten an

1612
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:47,960
Speaker 2: economics degree for the University of Washington, and then he

1613
01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:49,880
Speaker 2: was a guy. He's one of those people who just

1614
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:52,880
Speaker 2: can't sit still and is always doing a project. So

1615
01:24:52,960 --> 01:24:54,640
Speaker 2: he was the guy who figured out how to you know,

1616
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:57,120
Speaker 2: make a water ski press out of nothing, out of

1617
01:24:57,160 --> 01:24:59,960
Speaker 2: a hydraulic machine, and or figure out how to make

1618
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:04,080
Speaker 2: a new mill to cut wood. And then he bought

1619
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:06,400
Speaker 2: a piece of property on Stuart Island, which is one

1620
01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:09,000
Speaker 2: of the San Juan islands that doesn't have ferry service.

1621
01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:12,040
Speaker 2: And he had grown up his dad was a builder

1622
01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:16,000
Speaker 2: or a you know, a carpenter, and so he had

1623
01:25:16,040 --> 01:25:19,320
Speaker 2: grown up building houses. So we built a house in

1624
01:25:19,400 --> 01:25:21,839
Speaker 2: the summers on Stuart Island over a couple of summers.

1625
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 2: And to do that, we had to build a little

1626
01:25:24,040 --> 01:25:26,559
Speaker 2: barge that we towed behind our motor sailor to get

1627
01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:29,120
Speaker 2: the wood to the island. And so we did that,

1628
01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:31,160
Speaker 2: and then all these people saw the house that he

1629
01:25:31,240 --> 01:25:33,519
Speaker 2: built and were like, this is really cool. Can you

1630
01:25:33,560 --> 01:25:36,760
Speaker 2: build me one of these? And somehow Larry, my stepdad,

1631
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:40,559
Speaker 2: at some point was in Harbor Town on Puget Sound

1632
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:44,040
Speaker 2: and he saw like a forty five foot tug old

1633
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 2: old wood tug log towing tugboat for sailings, just like,

1634
01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:48,519
Speaker 2: I'm going to quit my job and buy that and

1635
01:25:48,600 --> 01:25:51,760
Speaker 2: start a business. Than he did, and it was it

1636
01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:54,640
Speaker 2: was incredible for me because he eventually turned into be

1637
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:58,880
Speaker 2: a pretty big you know like sand and gravel moving

1638
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:01,800
Speaker 2: operation with barges and tugs. But the first four or

1639
01:26:01,840 --> 01:26:04,560
Speaker 2: five years, every summer we would build a house on

1640
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:07,519
Speaker 2: Stuart Island and we did the tug and barge work

1641
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 2: to get the materials over there. And I would get

1642
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:11,960
Speaker 2: up every morning and put on my boots, my shorts

1643
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:13,800
Speaker 2: and my tool belt and go like getting a skiff

1644
01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:16,559
Speaker 2: and take the skiff to the job site and dig

1645
01:26:16,640 --> 01:26:19,920
Speaker 2: holes or pound nails all day. It was I look again,

1646
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:22,160
Speaker 2: looking back on that, I'm like, seem normal at the time,

1647
01:26:22,240 --> 01:26:24,240
Speaker 2: But holy shit, was I lucky to get to do that.

1648
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:27,280
Speaker 1: So how many tug boats and how many barges did

1649
01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:27,880
Speaker 1: he end up with?

1650
01:26:28,240 --> 01:26:31,160
Speaker 2: He eventually ended up with at the peak of a

1651
01:26:31,240 --> 01:26:34,160
Speaker 2: couple of boats and a few barges. And his specialty

1652
01:26:34,479 --> 01:26:37,360
Speaker 2: was sand and gravel. And because you know, where you

1653
01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:39,599
Speaker 2: have a big waterway like Puget Sound, it's way less

1654
01:26:39,720 --> 01:26:43,599
Speaker 2: expensive to move that via a barge than via trucks,

1655
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:46,000
Speaker 2: right if you can put thousands of yards on a barge.

1656
01:26:46,479 --> 01:26:48,960
Speaker 2: And then he built this crazy conveyor that could shoot

1657
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:51,280
Speaker 2: material way way way up on the beach, and it

1658
01:26:51,400 --> 01:26:54,479
Speaker 2: was unique. So he would and he eventually got to

1659
01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:56,720
Speaker 2: the point where he could just park his barges and

1660
01:26:56,840 --> 01:26:59,040
Speaker 2: lease it and other people would deliver the material. He

1661
01:26:59,120 --> 01:27:01,640
Speaker 2: had this kind of slick set up for getting the

1662
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:04,400
Speaker 2: material way up onto the beach or up onto a

1663
01:27:04,520 --> 01:27:07,240
Speaker 2: job site. And he did that for years, and he

1664
01:27:07,360 --> 01:27:09,439
Speaker 2: sold business about ten years ago.

1665
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:14,160
Speaker 1: How far is Stuart Island from downtown Seattle.

1666
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:18,920
Speaker 2: Stuart Island is the most northwesternmost point in the contiguous

1667
01:27:19,000 --> 01:27:23,080
Speaker 2: forty eight states. So you'd drive, you know, seventy miles

1668
01:27:23,120 --> 01:27:25,599
Speaker 2: to anacordis and then you'd have to take a ferry

1669
01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:29,120
Speaker 2: to San Juan Island, the biggest ferry service island, which

1670
01:27:29,160 --> 01:27:30,920
Speaker 2: takes two or three hours, and then take a skiff

1671
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:33,400
Speaker 2: twenty minutes to Stuart Island.

1672
01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:45,160
Speaker 1: So what kind of kid are you growing up? You

1673
01:27:45,240 --> 01:27:47,840
Speaker 1: have friends? You don't have friends? Good at school? Not

1674
01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:48,639
Speaker 1: good at school?

1675
01:27:49,400 --> 01:27:53,360
Speaker 2: I had I was I was never the boss. I

1676
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:55,880
Speaker 2: was always part of a crew. I guess, you know.

1677
01:27:55,960 --> 01:27:59,960
Speaker 2: I played sports, so my friends were sporty, sporty kids

1678
01:28:00,160 --> 01:28:02,719
Speaker 2: and probably smart kids. I think I was good in school,

1679
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:05,880
Speaker 2: you know, I was usually like in grade school. I

1680
01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:08,200
Speaker 2: was always you know, like going up a grade or

1681
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:12,040
Speaker 2: two to read and our grades. I went to public school.

1682
01:28:12,080 --> 01:28:14,479
Speaker 2: Through fifth grade, and we had a gifted program. I

1683
01:28:14,520 --> 01:28:17,840
Speaker 2: think I was in the gifted program. And then I

1684
01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:21,040
Speaker 2: went to I had a really really bad fifth grade teacher,

1685
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:24,160
Speaker 2: and my parents decided that and I was getting in

1686
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:26,160
Speaker 2: a little trouble at the time. I had shoplifted a

1687
01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:29,519
Speaker 2: few times, and my parents moved me and actually two

1688
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:32,280
Speaker 2: of my best friends. We all moved to a private

1689
01:28:32,320 --> 01:28:34,880
Speaker 2: school in Seattle in sixth grade and I went there

1690
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 2: through high school.

1691
01:28:36,960 --> 01:28:39,200
Speaker 1: Was that boys only, No, it was co ed.

1692
01:28:39,280 --> 01:28:41,599
Speaker 2: It was a school called the Bush School, which had

1693
01:28:41,680 --> 01:28:44,040
Speaker 2: been girls only and had gone co ed in the

1694
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:47,280
Speaker 2: early seventies. And I got really lucky there. I look back,

1695
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:49,280
Speaker 2: I got, you know, a lot of life is luck.

1696
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:52,080
Speaker 2: I ended up at this school that was super progressive

1697
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:55,519
Speaker 2: and had all these aquarian age teachers who were high

1698
01:28:55,600 --> 01:28:57,640
Speaker 2: minded and wanted to do stuff with the kids and

1699
01:28:57,680 --> 01:29:00,479
Speaker 2: take us out in the woods and you know, share

1700
01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:03,240
Speaker 2: their passions with us, and that would just happen again

1701
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:05,960
Speaker 2: a moment in time. That school, for that seven or

1702
01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:08,040
Speaker 2: eight years, I got really lucky.

1703
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:10,840
Speaker 1: Okay, so what year are you born in. I was

1704
01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:14,160
Speaker 1: born in sixty four, so you're born in sixty four.

1705
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:18,200
Speaker 1: World's Fair is in sixty two. You know, we have

1706
01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:22,879
Speaker 1: the blow up of the Seattle scene in the early nineties.

1707
01:29:23,400 --> 01:29:27,519
Speaker 1: We have the Seattle pilots before that, who leave. Let

1708
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:30,480
Speaker 1: was talking about this earlier, you know, in the seventies.

1709
01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:32,400
Speaker 1: You know, you drive in the West, you're out of

1710
01:29:32,479 --> 01:29:35,120
Speaker 1: cell service. I mean there was no cell service. You

1711
01:29:35,200 --> 01:29:39,400
Speaker 1: were totally disconnected. Now you're connected everywhere. So it sounds

1712
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:42,080
Speaker 1: like a dumb question, and maybe it's all you know,

1713
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:46,479
Speaker 1: But what was it like growing up in Seattle in

1714
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:49,120
Speaker 1: that time? Let me give you a different experience and

1715
01:29:49,160 --> 01:29:51,320
Speaker 1: maybe it might help you Know, I'm growing up fifty

1716
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:54,719
Speaker 1: miles from New York City. There's New York City media,

1717
01:29:55,520 --> 01:29:58,960
Speaker 1: all the TV shows, and music is coming from Hollywood.

1718
01:29:59,080 --> 01:30:01,640
Speaker 1: You could you know, what's it like living in the

1719
01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:02,840
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest.

1720
01:30:03,120 --> 01:30:07,360
Speaker 2: That's a great question, and I I would answer that.

1721
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:12,200
Speaker 2: So it was a beautiful place. You know, as my

1722
01:30:12,360 --> 01:30:14,519
Speaker 2: partner Jenna and I talked about it all the times.

1723
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:16,320
Speaker 2: You grew up here as well, like you drive around

1724
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:18,720
Speaker 2: now and there's trash everywhere. There was you know, it

1725
01:30:18,880 --> 01:30:22,800
Speaker 2: was clean and people were kind and respectful to each other.

1726
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:27,000
Speaker 2: It was not very crowded. Yet nobody knew about it

1727
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:28,680
Speaker 2: and I mean, one of my ways to answer that

1728
01:30:28,800 --> 01:30:32,920
Speaker 2: question is I went to Brown University for junior and

1729
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:35,639
Speaker 2: senior year of college, so I transferred there and I'd

1730
01:30:35,640 --> 01:30:37,160
Speaker 2: taken a year off, So I guess they went there

1731
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:40,040
Speaker 2: in the fall of nineteen eighty five, and you know,

1732
01:30:40,680 --> 01:30:42,559
Speaker 2: as you said, we weren't connected. I mean, I remember

1733
01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:46,040
Speaker 2: people like the first day that late fall it snowed,

1734
01:30:46,520 --> 01:30:49,519
Speaker 2: and someone's like, oh, yeah, you're well, you're used to this.

1735
01:30:49,720 --> 01:30:52,439
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, they thought Seattle was fucking Alaska, right,

1736
01:30:53,600 --> 01:30:56,880
Speaker 2: no idea, like, no, it maybe snow's an inch once year.

1737
01:30:57,200 --> 01:31:00,320
Speaker 2: And then that the real moment was so listen to

1738
01:31:00,400 --> 01:31:03,160
Speaker 2: a fair amount of jazz growing up. My mom liked it,

1739
01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:05,240
Speaker 2: and then I, as I started to play guitar, I

1740
01:31:05,360 --> 01:31:07,880
Speaker 2: really liked jazz and listened to it a lot. And

1741
01:31:07,960 --> 01:31:10,360
Speaker 2: so I'd listened to like, you know, Miles Davis or

1742
01:31:10,439 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 2: Joe Pass or this New York City music in Seattle,

1743
01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:17,040
Speaker 2: and I dug it. And I'll never forget the Thanksgiving,

1744
01:31:17,120 --> 01:31:19,000
Speaker 2: the first joy I was there. I had bought this

1745
01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:22,760
Speaker 2: crappy Vovo wagon and a friend invited me to go

1746
01:31:22,840 --> 01:31:25,160
Speaker 2: to Thanksgiving at his house in Brooklyn with his family

1747
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:27,680
Speaker 2: and So I drove four of us down, you know,

1748
01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:30,679
Speaker 2: down nine ninety five down through Connecticut into the city.

1749
01:31:30,760 --> 01:31:33,120
Speaker 2: And as you know, that drive, like if you can

1750
01:31:33,200 --> 01:31:34,920
Speaker 2: imagine what it's like if you grew up in Seattle,

1751
01:31:35,000 --> 01:31:37,559
Speaker 2: it's like N ninety five is like twelve lanes wide

1752
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:40,120
Speaker 2: as you come in north of the city. We come

1753
01:31:40,200 --> 01:31:43,840
Speaker 2: in and we drive basically all the way down you know,

1754
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:47,560
Speaker 2: Broadway right. We went the full length of Manhattan, and

1755
01:31:48,120 --> 01:31:51,240
Speaker 2: I will never forget pulling into Times Square and it

1756
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:53,479
Speaker 2: was late, it was probably ten thirty or eleven at night.

1757
01:31:53,840 --> 01:31:56,639
Speaker 2: I'll never forget pulling up and right in the heart

1758
01:31:56,680 --> 01:31:58,240
Speaker 2: of Times Square to a stop light, and I had

1759
01:31:58,280 --> 01:32:02,240
Speaker 2: my window down, and I was like, oh, that's what

1760
01:32:02,400 --> 01:32:06,040
Speaker 2: I've been listening to, Like that ride symbol. That's when

1761
01:32:06,080 --> 01:32:08,360
Speaker 2: you listen to, you know, any jazz from the six

1762
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:11,360
Speaker 2: fifties or early sixties, that's the sound. That's why they

1763
01:32:11,400 --> 01:32:13,800
Speaker 2: were making that sound, because that's the sound of this city.

1764
01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:16,519
Speaker 2: You know. Another thing I thought, you know, as we

1765
01:32:16,640 --> 01:32:19,280
Speaker 2: were coming down nine ninety five, growing up in Seattle,

1766
01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:22,360
Speaker 2: it's like you'd see McDonald's commercials or like a Buick

1767
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:25,800
Speaker 2: commercial in National Geographic, or a Schlitz commercial and you'd

1768
01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:27,639
Speaker 2: look at the people in the ad and go, who

1769
01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:30,200
Speaker 2: the fuck are these people? These are not the people

1770
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:34,679
Speaker 2: that I'm around ever in the Pacific Northwest. I don't

1771
01:32:34,840 --> 01:32:37,760
Speaker 2: know what this is. And I, you know, forty five

1772
01:32:37,840 --> 01:32:40,439
Speaker 2: minutes before the jazz moment in Times Square, I remember

1773
01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:43,200
Speaker 2: being in that traffic twelve lanes, eight lanes wide and

1774
01:32:43,320 --> 01:32:47,120
Speaker 2: just going, Oh, these are the people who buy the

1775
01:32:47,200 --> 01:32:49,600
Speaker 2: Schlitz and the Buick, and this is what this is

1776
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:52,560
Speaker 2: all about. This is you know, this is this is

1777
01:32:52,640 --> 01:32:56,920
Speaker 2: the market that I've been seeing. So it was lovely.

1778
01:32:57,000 --> 01:33:00,559
Speaker 2: It was provincial. You know, That's that's really the big

1779
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:03,519
Speaker 2: downfall with digital media and the Internet is the loss

1780
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:04,520
Speaker 2: of provinciality.

1781
01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:09,440
Speaker 1: Okay, so you have the revolution and music in nineties,

1782
01:33:10,120 --> 01:33:14,760
Speaker 1: early nineties to mid nineties. Then Microsoft blows up Amazon

1783
01:33:15,040 --> 01:33:17,560
Speaker 1: just before the turn of the century. How has that

1784
01:33:17,800 --> 01:33:19,880
Speaker 1: changed Seattle? What is Seattle like now?

1785
01:33:20,439 --> 01:33:23,360
Speaker 2: It's so radically different. And you know, my dad died

1786
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:26,240
Speaker 2: three and a half years ago, and I used to

1787
01:33:26,320 --> 01:33:28,960
Speaker 2: talk to him about it about how wow this is.

1788
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:31,040
Speaker 2: You know, we're sort of stuck in the middle. We're

1789
01:33:31,120 --> 01:33:33,840
Speaker 2: not dense enough yet to have all the benefits of

1790
01:33:33,960 --> 01:33:38,800
Speaker 2: being a you know Brooklyn or a European city, but

1791
01:33:39,040 --> 01:33:41,160
Speaker 2: we've lost that thing where I can just drive my

1792
01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:43,280
Speaker 2: car an hour in any direction and lay out my

1793
01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:45,880
Speaker 2: sleeping bag on the side of the road. So we're

1794
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:49,040
Speaker 2: sort of stuck. And my dad, he was interesting. His dad,

1795
01:33:49,160 --> 01:33:51,599
Speaker 2: my grandpa was a big civic booster. He was involved

1796
01:33:51,640 --> 01:33:55,599
Speaker 2: in putting the World's Fair together, and big civic leader.

1797
01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:58,360
Speaker 2: And his response was like your grandpa would just he'd

1798
01:33:58,439 --> 01:34:00,600
Speaker 2: look around and be pleased as punch. This is what

1799
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:04,120
Speaker 2: he and all those guys were working toward tirelessly, you know,

1800
01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:06,559
Speaker 2: for fifty years, was to put Seattle on the map.

1801
01:34:07,280 --> 01:34:11,360
Speaker 2: So it's cool that we're on the map, Seattle Metropolitan

1802
01:34:11,360 --> 01:34:16,200
Speaker 2: Seattle is sort of unrecognizable because of the influx of

1803
01:34:16,360 --> 01:34:21,040
Speaker 2: wealth and wealthy singletons and double income no kid people

1804
01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:23,240
Speaker 2: who have no allegiance to the city other than that

1805
01:34:23,400 --> 01:34:27,479
Speaker 2: maybe Amazon's you know, they're doing. They're working at one

1806
01:34:27,640 --> 01:34:29,400
Speaker 2: or more of the fang companies. They're going to do

1807
01:34:29,479 --> 01:34:31,679
Speaker 2: two years at Amazon, then they're going to go to Netflix,

1808
01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:35,160
Speaker 2: then they're going to go to Google. So we don't

1809
01:34:35,320 --> 01:34:39,560
Speaker 2: have that sense of identity like we did, but you know,

1810
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:42,120
Speaker 2: there is a vibrancy there's live music every night of

1811
01:34:42,160 --> 01:34:44,719
Speaker 2: the week. There's all sorts of stuff going on. There's,

1812
01:34:45,439 --> 01:34:47,760
Speaker 2: you know, a good tax base, there's the benefit of

1813
01:34:47,800 --> 01:34:50,200
Speaker 2: having your property value go up, all that stuff, So

1814
01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:54,479
Speaker 2: you know, you can't really fight. I'm a little bit

1815
01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:56,920
Speaker 2: of a There was a famous columnist in Seattle for

1816
01:34:57,000 --> 01:34:59,880
Speaker 2: the Seattle Post Intelligencer, EMMITTT. Watson, and he was an

1817
01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:03,720
Speaker 2: advocate for quote unquote lesser Seattle. He considered himself the

1818
01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:07,519
Speaker 2: mayor of lesser Seattle. He was he was always grouching about,

1819
01:35:07,720 --> 01:35:10,840
Speaker 2: you know, losing the old flavor. But you know, I'm

1820
01:35:10,840 --> 01:35:13,519
Speaker 2: sure they said the same thing during the gold Rush boom,

1821
01:35:13,640 --> 01:35:15,760
Speaker 2: you know, when people were headed to the Klong Dyke.

1822
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:18,920
Speaker 1: You can't Okay, I'm gonna ask a dumb question, but

1823
01:35:19,040 --> 01:35:22,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people have not been to the Pacific Northwest.

1824
01:35:23,360 --> 01:35:27,280
Speaker 1: What would you say the difference is between Seattle, Portland

1825
01:35:27,360 --> 01:35:28,640
Speaker 1: and Vancouver.

1826
01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:32,639
Speaker 2: Seattle. But we were just talking about this. Carmela, who's

1827
01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:35,320
Speaker 2: here engineering the session, lived in Portland for ten years.

1828
01:35:36,640 --> 01:35:42,360
Speaker 2: I think of Portland as simultaneously what Seattle was like

1829
01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:44,720
Speaker 2: twenty five years ago and what it could have been

1830
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:50,040
Speaker 2: if we'd been a little bit better at urban planning Portland.

1831
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:56,120
Speaker 2: You know, Portland for example, has like an amazing culinary scene,

1832
01:35:57,200 --> 01:36:00,599
Speaker 2: and now Portland's I think struggling catching up because as

1833
01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:04,160
Speaker 2: they get better at cost of living goes up, property

1834
01:36:04,240 --> 01:36:06,200
Speaker 2: values go up. Like if you ever go to Portland,

1835
01:36:06,240 --> 01:36:08,519
Speaker 2: go try to go to a show at Mississippi Studios

1836
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:11,120
Speaker 2: in the Mississippi neighborhood, which is kind of in the

1837
01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:13,920
Speaker 2: north northeast part of the city. That's one of those

1838
01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:17,479
Speaker 2: neighborhoods you look at, like went there where Elbow, Grease

1839
01:36:17,520 --> 01:36:19,599
Speaker 2: and sweat Equity could do it, which they haven't been

1840
01:36:19,640 --> 01:36:21,280
Speaker 2: able to do it in Seattle for thirty years. It's

1841
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:23,960
Speaker 2: just too fucking expensive, right, you can't be an artist

1842
01:36:24,080 --> 01:36:26,439
Speaker 2: and like, you know, live in a squad, which you

1843
01:36:26,520 --> 01:36:30,599
Speaker 2: could forty years ago. So Portland's sort of twenty years

1844
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:33,200
Speaker 2: behind us and twenty years ahead of us. Vancouver is

1845
01:36:33,200 --> 01:36:36,240
Speaker 2: another world because I think being a crown country, all

1846
01:36:36,280 --> 01:36:39,080
Speaker 2: the y two k influx of wealth from Hong Kong

1847
01:36:39,200 --> 01:36:44,160
Speaker 2: and or you know, mainland China, they've been way better

1848
01:36:44,320 --> 01:36:49,560
Speaker 2: at embracing urban density. It's much more of a futuristic

1849
01:36:51,000 --> 01:36:54,840
Speaker 2: kind of urban environment. Although I have to say their

1850
01:36:54,880 --> 01:36:59,400
Speaker 2: brilliance was Stanley Park, the big park that sticks north

1851
01:36:59,439 --> 01:37:02,320
Speaker 2: of downtown is one of the most along with Central Park,

1852
01:37:02,400 --> 01:37:04,680
Speaker 2: is probably the most brilliant piece of civic planning of

1853
01:37:04,720 --> 01:37:08,400
Speaker 2: all time to preserve the most beautiful spot right in

1854
01:37:08,439 --> 01:37:12,080
Speaker 2: the middle of your city. So, yeah, Vancouver is it's

1855
01:37:12,240 --> 01:37:14,280
Speaker 2: like a I don't know, I've spent quite a bit

1856
01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:17,479
Speaker 2: of time there. It's like friendly blade runner, I guess

1857
01:37:17,720 --> 01:37:18,640
Speaker 2: is what I call it.

1858
01:37:19,200 --> 01:37:23,120
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. So you're growing up, when do

1859
01:37:23,200 --> 01:37:25,800
Speaker 1: you start playing in the instrument? What music are you

1860
01:37:25,920 --> 01:37:26,439
Speaker 1: listening to?

1861
01:37:28,640 --> 01:37:31,880
Speaker 2: One of my earliest memories is musical. I was in

1862
01:37:32,120 --> 01:37:35,200
Speaker 2: the car with my mom. We had a white Ford

1863
01:37:35,280 --> 01:37:39,800
Speaker 2: Galaxy five hundred, and I have one of my earliest,

1864
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:43,280
Speaker 2: most vivid childhood memories is getting in the car in

1865
01:37:43,400 --> 01:37:45,360
Speaker 2: the backseat, no kids. You know, I was probably three

1866
01:37:45,479 --> 01:37:48,040
Speaker 2: or four five at the most, and as you know

1867
01:37:48,120 --> 01:37:49,800
Speaker 2: back then, you turn the ignition on and if the

1868
01:37:50,120 --> 01:37:52,720
Speaker 2: radio was already on, the radio would come on and

1869
01:37:52,880 --> 01:37:55,439
Speaker 2: it was some like I don't know what it was,

1870
01:37:55,920 --> 01:37:58,200
Speaker 2: I just remember that. If I think back, I think

1871
01:37:58,240 --> 01:38:00,320
Speaker 2: it had to have been like Otis Redding or Wilson

1872
01:38:00,360 --> 01:38:02,800
Speaker 2: Pickett or something. But it came on and it was

1873
01:38:02,920 --> 01:38:05,800
Speaker 2: some like super high energy, kind of soul music, and

1874
01:38:05,920 --> 01:38:07,800
Speaker 2: my mom turned it off, and I just remember having

1875
01:38:07,880 --> 01:38:10,160
Speaker 2: a massive tantrum, like, turn it back on, turn it

1876
01:38:10,200 --> 01:38:12,479
Speaker 2: back on, turn it back on. So from a very

1877
01:38:12,560 --> 01:38:15,600
Speaker 2: early age, I really really liked music. We didn't have

1878
01:38:15,640 --> 01:38:19,280
Speaker 2: a piano in the house. Neither of my parents nor Larry,

1879
01:38:20,200 --> 01:38:23,880
Speaker 2: my stepdad, played an instrument, but everybody liked music, all

1880
01:38:23,920 --> 01:38:26,439
Speaker 2: three of my parents and Larry kind of moved in,

1881
01:38:26,560 --> 01:38:28,800
Speaker 2: and he's a little bit younger, right, so his record

1882
01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:32,160
Speaker 2: collection was from like the late sixties early seventies. So

1883
01:38:32,320 --> 01:38:35,360
Speaker 2: my mom's listening to Bob Dylan on repeat in the house.

1884
01:38:36,160 --> 01:38:38,679
Speaker 2: Larry moves in, and all of a sudden, my friend

1885
01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:41,800
Speaker 2: Eddie Hewletts comes over and sees led Zeppelin four. We're

1886
01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:44,720
Speaker 2: in like fifth grade, and he's kind of a cool dude,

1887
01:38:44,840 --> 01:38:46,800
Speaker 2: ended up being a real fixture on the Seattle punk

1888
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:50,040
Speaker 2: rock scene. He's like, hey, deater, chick this out, you know,

1889
01:38:50,120 --> 01:38:51,840
Speaker 2: and he pulls it out of the sleeve, puts it

1890
01:38:51,920 --> 01:38:54,479
Speaker 2: down and puts black Dog on, and I just I'm like,

1891
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:57,840
Speaker 2: holy shit, that's what I want to do. So from

1892
01:38:57,920 --> 01:38:59,880
Speaker 2: that age, I really wanted to do it. And then

1893
01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:03,160
Speaker 2: and I didn't start playing imber until I was in

1894
01:39:03,280 --> 01:39:06,759
Speaker 2: eighth grade. There was a guy in my class, Matt Bowman,

1895
01:39:06,800 --> 01:39:09,840
Speaker 2: who was brilliant ended up going to Yale a year early.

1896
01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:14,479
Speaker 2: He's a business guy now. He was like a keyboard prodigy. Actually,

1897
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:17,120
Speaker 2: when he was in ninth grade, Roger Fisher was leaving

1898
01:39:17,200 --> 01:39:21,280
Speaker 2: Heart and asked him to join his band. So he

1899
01:39:21,479 --> 01:39:24,000
Speaker 2: was really good, and so we put together a band

1900
01:39:24,200 --> 01:39:26,760
Speaker 2: in eighth grade. Sagittarius. Bob was the name of.

1901
01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:28,479
Speaker 1: The Wait wait, wait, wait, way you left out when

1902
01:39:28,520 --> 01:39:29,880
Speaker 1: you picked up an instrument, So.

1903
01:39:29,960 --> 01:39:32,680
Speaker 2: Eighth grade that this band was for me. So we're

1904
01:39:32,680 --> 01:39:35,320
Speaker 2: going to have a band. Sagittarius. Matt, the brilliant piano

1905
01:39:35,320 --> 01:39:36,720
Speaker 2: player is going to play well.

1906
01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:38,519
Speaker 1: So you're gonna have a band. And at that time

1907
01:39:38,600 --> 01:39:41,120
Speaker 1: you would not do not have an instrument.

1908
01:39:40,760 --> 01:39:43,360
Speaker 2: No, don't have an instrument. So somebody has to play bass.

1909
01:39:43,479 --> 01:39:46,320
Speaker 2: So two or three of us rent or buy basses

1910
01:39:46,360 --> 01:39:50,360
Speaker 2: and start taking lessons. I don't get the gig, but

1911
01:39:51,040 --> 01:39:53,639
Speaker 2: I take the bass back and I rent an acoustic guitar.

1912
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:56,720
Speaker 2: And the only lessons I've ever taken really were the

1913
01:39:56,840 --> 01:39:59,760
Speaker 2: next one or two years. This great guy rest in peace,

1914
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:02,720
Speaker 2: Chuck Bennett, who was kind of the first call casuals

1915
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:06,360
Speaker 2: jazz whatever guy around town. He was my guitar teacher,

1916
01:40:06,400 --> 01:40:09,000
Speaker 2: and I just started taking guitar lessons and you know,

1917
01:40:09,120 --> 01:40:11,519
Speaker 2: trying to play with my friends in the neighborhood and stuff.

1918
01:40:11,560 --> 01:40:15,479
Speaker 2: And they didn't really maybe have a proper band until

1919
01:40:16,080 --> 01:40:19,880
Speaker 2: senior year in high school. Was probably the first real

1920
01:40:20,080 --> 01:40:26,080
Speaker 2: band I had. But you know, just music was I mean,

1921
01:40:26,320 --> 01:40:28,120
Speaker 2: once we start talking about music, we're going to need

1922
01:40:28,160 --> 01:40:30,439
Speaker 2: another three hours because that's getting okay.

1923
01:40:30,479 --> 01:40:34,120
Speaker 1: But just to stay on this point, you have a

1924
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:37,840
Speaker 1: band in high school, is it playing gigs? Are you

1925
01:40:37,960 --> 01:40:38,679
Speaker 1: getting paid?

1926
01:40:39,200 --> 01:40:43,320
Speaker 2: I think that band my senior year, Sandino and the Leftists,

1927
01:40:43,520 --> 01:40:48,040
Speaker 2: I think we played one gig at my school and

1928
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:51,800
Speaker 2: probably didn't get paid. And then the next year I

1929
01:40:51,840 --> 01:40:53,840
Speaker 2: went freshman year school, all of a sudden, I was

1930
01:40:53,880 --> 01:40:59,760
Speaker 2: in a band there in Colorado College, and weirdly was

1931
01:41:00,120 --> 01:41:03,559
Speaker 2: the same drummer who had been in Sagittarius in eighth grade.

1932
01:41:04,640 --> 01:41:07,000
Speaker 2: We reconnected, and the guitar player in that band I

1933
01:41:07,120 --> 01:41:10,080
Speaker 2: gradually learned, you know, started playing whenever I could, and

1934
01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:12,719
Speaker 2: you get in bands with people like the guitar player

1935
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:16,519
Speaker 2: in that band had been in a band that really

1936
01:41:16,600 --> 01:41:19,680
Speaker 2: played in the Bay Area, were college freshmen and made

1937
01:41:19,760 --> 01:41:22,200
Speaker 2: records and stuff, so he actually knew kind of how

1938
01:41:22,280 --> 01:41:25,719
Speaker 2: to because it's not about really about playing your instrument,

1939
01:41:25,800 --> 01:41:28,200
Speaker 2: it's understanding how all the pieces fit together and how

1940
01:41:28,240 --> 01:41:30,800
Speaker 2: to listen to other people. That's really what music is about.

1941
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:34,680
Speaker 2: So then gradually and actually the guy I really had

1942
01:41:34,720 --> 01:41:37,960
Speaker 2: a band there, moved back to Seattle, took a year

1943
01:41:38,040 --> 01:41:40,519
Speaker 2: off of school, and my best friend Kermit Rosen and

1944
01:41:40,680 --> 01:41:43,000
Speaker 2: I had bands for a couple of years in what

1945
01:41:43,240 --> 01:41:46,400
Speaker 2: was really like the immediately pre grunge scene in Seattle,

1946
01:41:47,080 --> 01:41:50,080
Speaker 2: and we're getting better again. Then I went to Brown

1947
01:41:50,479 --> 01:41:54,639
Speaker 2: and I resuscitated this funk band that had fallen apart

1948
01:41:54,640 --> 01:41:57,920
Speaker 2: when someone graduated. And the other guitar player in that

1949
01:41:58,040 --> 01:42:00,840
Speaker 2: band was the guy whose house I went for Thanksgiving,

1950
01:42:01,160 --> 01:42:04,439
Speaker 2: Matt MOONISTERI. He became a well known trad jazz guitar

1951
01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:07,320
Speaker 2: player in New York. He was already a he was

1952
01:42:07,360 --> 01:42:10,960
Speaker 2: from Brooklyn, but somehow became a bluegrass banjo prodigy in

1953
01:42:11,120 --> 01:42:13,920
Speaker 2: like junior high in high school, and he was a

1954
01:42:14,040 --> 01:42:16,960
Speaker 2: serious musician, and he was the guy who taught me

1955
01:42:17,000 --> 01:42:19,439
Speaker 2: how to play music. We played you know, James Brown

1956
01:42:19,840 --> 01:42:25,120
Speaker 2: and current you know, CAMEO funk music, R and B music,

1957
01:42:25,560 --> 01:42:28,599
Speaker 2: and he was a task master and he could really play.

1958
01:42:28,680 --> 01:42:30,519
Speaker 2: And he was the first guy, and he was a

1959
01:42:30,600 --> 01:42:32,240
Speaker 2: bit of a hard ass. He was the first guy

1960
01:42:32,280 --> 01:42:33,840
Speaker 2: who just sat me down and said, no, that's not

1961
01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:35,760
Speaker 2: good enough. You're going to sit here with me and

1962
01:42:35,920 --> 01:42:38,519
Speaker 2: tell we use this metronome and you can actually play

1963
01:42:38,560 --> 01:42:42,280
Speaker 2: this in time and make it groove. And he good

1964
01:42:42,400 --> 01:42:44,360
Speaker 2: enough is not good enough? Has to be fucking awesome.

1965
01:42:45,000 --> 01:42:48,360
Speaker 1: So why did you go to Colorado College? Why did

1966
01:42:48,400 --> 01:42:50,519
Speaker 1: it not work out? And then how did you end

1967
01:42:50,600 --> 01:42:51,160
Speaker 1: up at Brown?

1968
01:42:51,880 --> 01:42:55,519
Speaker 2: Oh? You really? I was enrolled at four schools in

1969
01:42:55,840 --> 01:42:59,920
Speaker 2: four years I went. I applied to a bunch of

1970
01:43:00,080 --> 01:43:02,920
Speaker 2: school we actually I only applied to Colorado College in Berkeley.

1971
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:07,000
Speaker 2: I got into Colorado College and Berkeley. I decided to

1972
01:43:07,040 --> 01:43:09,240
Speaker 2: go to Colorado College because I had some friends there

1973
01:43:09,280 --> 01:43:12,040
Speaker 2: and I just wanted to go climbing, honestly, and they

1974
01:43:12,080 --> 01:43:14,439
Speaker 2: had you know, they have the block program where you

1975
01:43:14,520 --> 01:43:15,800
Speaker 2: go to school for three and a half weeks. I

1976
01:43:15,880 --> 01:43:18,000
Speaker 2: just wanted to go climbing for five days every month.

1977
01:43:18,520 --> 01:43:21,200
Speaker 2: And I had friends climbing friends from Seattle. One was

1978
01:43:21,280 --> 01:43:24,479
Speaker 2: already there and one was going So that was Colorada College.

1979
01:43:24,520 --> 01:43:26,439
Speaker 2: I got there, I'm like, this is I don't see

1980
01:43:26,479 --> 01:43:28,880
Speaker 2: the point of moving fifteen hundred miles to be with

1981
01:43:29,200 --> 01:43:31,640
Speaker 2: like eighteen hundred other kids. This is just not a

1982
01:43:31,680 --> 01:43:35,599
Speaker 2: big enough thing for me. So I reapplied to Berkeley.

1983
01:43:35,720 --> 01:43:38,720
Speaker 2: They let me back in, and then that summer my

1984
01:43:39,160 --> 01:43:41,160
Speaker 2: Kermit and then I started a band, and like a

1985
01:43:41,240 --> 01:43:42,920
Speaker 2: week before I was supposed to go to Berkeley. This

1986
01:43:43,080 --> 01:43:46,280
Speaker 2: is cal Berkeley, not Berkeley College of Music. I flaked

1987
01:43:46,320 --> 01:43:49,439
Speaker 2: out and decided not to go. We kept our band

1988
01:43:49,520 --> 01:43:52,400
Speaker 2: going the next year. We wanted to keep playing music.

1989
01:43:52,479 --> 01:43:54,439
Speaker 2: So Kermit and I he had gone to uh.

1990
01:43:54,439 --> 01:43:56,600
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait this being is

1991
01:43:56,640 --> 01:43:57,640
Speaker 1: in Seattle.

1992
01:43:57,280 --> 01:43:59,920
Speaker 2: Or yeah, yeah in Seattle. Back in Seattle.

1993
01:44:00,120 --> 01:44:02,519
Speaker 1: Wait wait how long did you go to Colorado College?

1994
01:44:02,560 --> 01:44:02,880
Speaker 2: One year?

1995
01:44:03,840 --> 01:44:06,599
Speaker 1: Okay, one year, you go back to Seattle. You say

1996
01:44:06,640 --> 01:44:08,479
Speaker 1: you're going to go to Berkeley. You don't go to

1997
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:12,320
Speaker 1: Berkeley because you have this band. Continue with your education.

1998
01:44:13,320 --> 01:44:15,080
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I've got the band, and Kermit and I

1999
01:44:15,160 --> 01:44:18,719
Speaker 2: are working at this communist pizza restaurant in the university

2000
01:44:18,800 --> 01:44:22,840
Speaker 2: district and playing music. Keep playing music. The next year.

2001
01:44:22,880 --> 01:44:25,160
Speaker 2: We want to keep playing music in Seattle go to

2002
01:44:25,280 --> 01:44:29,120
Speaker 2: the University Washington undergrad for a year, and that also

2003
01:44:29,280 --> 01:44:32,160
Speaker 2: felt like I was an English major. I was always

2004
01:44:32,280 --> 01:44:34,400
Speaker 2: the one or two of the kids in the front

2005
01:44:34,479 --> 01:44:37,160
Speaker 2: row actually engaged going to office hours, and it didn't

2006
01:44:37,160 --> 01:44:39,920
Speaker 2: feel that exciting. My girlfriend at the time went to Brown.

2007
01:44:40,680 --> 01:44:44,479
Speaker 2: I really liked her, and I thought I need a

2008
01:44:44,520 --> 01:44:46,600
Speaker 2: bigger challenge, so I only applied to one school. I

2009
01:44:46,680 --> 01:44:50,639
Speaker 2: applied to Brown, and I got in and just went how.

2010
01:44:50,560 --> 01:44:52,960
Speaker 1: Long did it you go to Brown? Did it continue

2011
01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:54,479
Speaker 1: with the girlfriend? And for how long?

2012
01:44:55,840 --> 01:44:59,200
Speaker 2: It mostly continued for the next two years and maybe

2013
01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:02,720
Speaker 2: half a year year after that, but it didn't. It

2014
01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:03,599
Speaker 2: didn't last forever.

2015
01:45:03,760 --> 01:45:05,879
Speaker 1: Well, but you know, when you go to a school

2016
01:45:06,240 --> 01:45:09,360
Speaker 1: in the middle, how do you make friends? How does

2017
01:45:09,400 --> 01:45:09,800
Speaker 1: it work?

2018
01:45:11,479 --> 01:45:14,000
Speaker 2: Well? I knew her and so I had her friend

2019
01:45:14,120 --> 01:45:17,240
Speaker 2: group pretty quickly. Somehow I ended up connecting with some

2020
01:45:17,360 --> 01:45:21,400
Speaker 2: other transfer students that I hit it off with. That

2021
01:45:21,520 --> 01:45:23,160
Speaker 2: was one guy who became the bass player in the

2022
01:45:23,200 --> 01:45:26,040
Speaker 2: funk band Dimensioned and was a climber, so we'd like

2023
01:45:26,160 --> 01:45:30,240
Speaker 2: totally hit it off on the all fronts. Another guy,

2024
01:45:30,400 --> 01:45:33,439
Speaker 2: Andrew Stevens from Columbia, Missouri, who ended up working for

2025
01:45:33,560 --> 01:45:35,680
Speaker 2: Richard get part for years. Was just a really he

2026
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:41,160
Speaker 2: transferred from Vassar. Just a fucking hilarious smart guy. You know,

2027
01:45:42,120 --> 01:45:46,160
Speaker 2: so I hit it. I'm pretty you know, I'm pretty gregarious.

2028
01:45:46,640 --> 01:45:47,880
Speaker 2: I'm not a shrinking violin.

2029
01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:52,280
Speaker 1: Oh okay, since you go to Colorado, which is certainly

2030
01:45:52,360 --> 01:45:57,040
Speaker 1: different from Seattle, But what do you learn other than

2031
01:45:57,080 --> 01:45:59,960
Speaker 1: your eye ninety five experiences? And I'm not talking about

2032
01:46:00,160 --> 01:46:03,439
Speaker 1: classroom What do you learn going to Brown that is

2033
01:46:03,479 --> 01:46:06,240
Speaker 1: different from what you already know so much?

2034
01:46:06,360 --> 01:46:08,280
Speaker 2: And this is all going to resonate with you as

2035
01:46:08,320 --> 01:46:11,080
Speaker 2: an East Coaster who moved to the West coast. You know,

2036
01:46:11,280 --> 01:46:12,960
Speaker 2: as you said, what was it like growing up in

2037
01:46:13,040 --> 01:46:16,040
Speaker 2: the Pacific Northwest? I remember just the first week at Brown,

2038
01:46:16,160 --> 01:46:19,040
Speaker 2: Like you know, if you're a Western kid at least

2039
01:46:19,120 --> 01:46:21,439
Speaker 2: at that time, Like when you meet people, it's like

2040
01:46:21,520 --> 01:46:23,799
Speaker 2: what music do you like? Oh, let's go throw the frisbee?

2041
01:46:23,960 --> 01:46:26,400
Speaker 2: What do you like to do? You meet kids at

2042
01:46:26,400 --> 01:46:29,479
Speaker 2: an Ivy League school, they're like, where'd you prep? Does

2043
01:46:29,520 --> 01:46:31,360
Speaker 2: your dad know my dad? On the street or on

2044
01:46:31,439 --> 01:46:35,360
Speaker 2: Capitol Hill. It's like, oh, okay, this is a whole

2045
01:46:35,479 --> 01:46:38,400
Speaker 2: different game. This is a game I have no interest

2046
01:46:38,479 --> 01:46:41,439
Speaker 2: in it. And to continue to answer your question. That

2047
01:46:41,720 --> 01:46:44,000
Speaker 2: was the big value of living there. Two years was

2048
01:46:44,040 --> 01:46:49,160
Speaker 2: about all it could take. But I got that view of, Oh,

2049
01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:51,760
Speaker 2: these are the people who buy Schlitz and buicks. Oh

2050
01:46:51,840 --> 01:46:53,519
Speaker 2: these are the people who are going to run the country.

2051
01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:56,280
Speaker 2: These people I'm going to school with, for better or worse,

2052
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:57,639
Speaker 2: are the people who are going to be on Wall

2053
01:46:57,720 --> 01:47:00,840
Speaker 2: Street and Capitol Hill in five years, ten years, twenty years.

2054
01:47:01,280 --> 01:47:05,600
Speaker 2: So it was a real window into how the oligarchy

2055
01:47:05,800 --> 01:47:09,240
Speaker 2: actually functions in the United States. It was a real

2056
01:47:09,320 --> 01:47:10,840
Speaker 2: eye opener. I'm really glad I did it.

2057
01:47:10,920 --> 01:47:14,920
Speaker 1: It turned out, Okay, you graduate, do you immediately go

2058
01:47:15,080 --> 01:47:17,800
Speaker 1: back to Seattle? And why No.

2059
01:47:18,040 --> 01:47:21,840
Speaker 2: I knew I wanted to be an high school English teacher,

2060
01:47:22,160 --> 01:47:26,320
Speaker 2: and I sent out, you know, not emails letters to

2061
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:29,439
Speaker 2: forty or fifty schools, and my only requirement was the

2062
01:47:29,520 --> 01:47:33,799
Speaker 2: school be west of the Mississippi, I'll be totally honest.

2063
01:47:34,320 --> 01:47:36,360
Speaker 2: And I ended up at a school in Denver, Kent

2064
01:47:36,479 --> 01:47:38,840
Speaker 2: Denver School, private school in Cherry Hill.

2065
01:47:38,920 --> 01:47:41,240
Speaker 1: So just because we're this far, where does the euro

2066
01:47:41,400 --> 01:47:42,439
Speaker 1: paramour end up?

2067
01:47:43,360 --> 01:47:47,040
Speaker 2: She ended up kind of continuing she was an anthropology major.

2068
01:47:47,200 --> 01:47:49,320
Speaker 2: She ended up in flag Staff at a museum there,

2069
01:47:49,360 --> 01:47:54,120
Speaker 2: and eventually going to grad school in anthropology. And actually

2070
01:47:54,160 --> 01:47:57,160
Speaker 2: she's been back in the Boston area for twenty five years.

2071
01:47:57,200 --> 01:47:59,719
Speaker 1: So what broke up the relationship pure distance.

2072
01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:02,560
Speaker 2: I think just a it just was not She's a

2073
01:48:02,600 --> 01:48:05,800
Speaker 2: great person, and honestly was you know, just was not

2074
01:48:05,920 --> 01:48:06,559
Speaker 2: the time of life.

2075
01:48:06,640 --> 01:48:09,360
Speaker 1: Okay, So you go to teach and you're teaching where

2076
01:48:09,439 --> 01:48:09,720
Speaker 1: and what?

2077
01:48:11,000 --> 01:48:14,040
Speaker 2: Teaching at Kent Denver School in suburban Denver, and I

2078
01:48:14,160 --> 01:48:17,439
Speaker 2: was there two years. I taught English and coach soccer

2079
01:48:17,520 --> 01:48:18,160
Speaker 2: and basketball.

2080
01:48:18,439 --> 01:48:18,920
Speaker 1: High school.

2081
01:48:19,920 --> 01:48:21,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, high school. I had middle school too. Middle school.

2082
01:48:21,960 --> 01:48:24,599
Speaker 2: Middle schoolers crushed me, but the high school part I enjoyed.

2083
01:48:24,920 --> 01:48:26,320
Speaker 2: Middle schoolers had my number.

2084
01:48:33,960 --> 01:48:37,839
Speaker 1: So, okay, you're a teacher for two years, you stop?

2085
01:48:38,040 --> 01:48:41,479
Speaker 2: Because I decided after two years there, I did want

2086
01:48:41,520 --> 01:48:44,200
Speaker 2: to move back to Seattle. I missed. I was just

2087
01:48:44,320 --> 01:48:47,400
Speaker 2: having this conversation with my younger daughter because she's trying

2088
01:48:47,439 --> 01:48:48,800
Speaker 2: to figure out what to do with her life, and

2089
01:48:48,960 --> 01:48:51,080
Speaker 2: I knew I wanted to be in a community where

2090
01:48:51,400 --> 01:48:54,400
Speaker 2: I knew all kinds of people right all ages, where

2091
01:48:54,400 --> 01:48:57,840
Speaker 2: I had a deep connection culturally and family wise. So

2092
01:48:58,320 --> 01:48:59,719
Speaker 2: I just thought, I'm going to move back to Seattle.

2093
01:48:59,760 --> 01:49:02,680
Speaker 2: I'm back to Seattle, and I ended up not the

2094
01:49:02,720 --> 01:49:05,040
Speaker 2: one thing I was sure I wasn't gonna do was

2095
01:49:05,160 --> 01:49:08,080
Speaker 2: teach at my alma mater. I got back that summer

2096
01:49:08,360 --> 01:49:10,439
Speaker 2: and the head of the upper school, who I'd stayed

2097
01:49:10,479 --> 01:49:12,280
Speaker 2: friends with, called me, is like, I got a pregnant

2098
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:14,960
Speaker 2: English teacher, you want a job. So I ended up

2099
01:49:15,120 --> 01:49:20,599
Speaker 2: teaching English and for another three years and coaching soccer,

2100
01:49:20,760 --> 01:49:23,280
Speaker 2: and I did took kids out climbing and you know,

2101
01:49:23,400 --> 01:49:25,840
Speaker 2: doing stuff in the woods, and that was great. It

2102
01:49:25,960 --> 01:49:29,120
Speaker 2: was really fun three years. So I taught for three

2103
01:49:29,200 --> 01:49:31,120
Speaker 2: years and then it was onto the next phase.

2104
01:49:31,240 --> 01:49:32,519
Speaker 1: Well what was the next phase?

2105
01:49:33,240 --> 01:49:36,920
Speaker 2: The next phase was sitting around thinking, Wow, I'm getting

2106
01:49:36,960 --> 01:49:40,000
Speaker 2: better at being a teacher. But one of the big

2107
01:49:40,040 --> 01:49:42,920
Speaker 2: problems with being a teacher is if you're an ambitious person,

2108
01:49:43,760 --> 01:49:48,080
Speaker 2: you're inevitably going to become an administrator. And being a

2109
01:49:48,160 --> 01:49:51,200
Speaker 2: teacher is really really fun, and I think being an

2110
01:49:51,240 --> 01:49:55,360
Speaker 2: administrator at a private independent school is maybe less fun,

2111
01:49:56,000 --> 01:50:00,200
Speaker 2: pretty hard. You're answering to parents, students, faculty, staff, and

2112
01:50:00,320 --> 01:50:02,559
Speaker 2: everybody's kind of pissed off at you all the time. Right,

2113
01:50:03,160 --> 01:50:04,800
Speaker 2: So I sort of saw the writing on the wall.

2114
01:50:04,880 --> 01:50:08,120
Speaker 2: So I actually made kind of a real conscious decision, like, Okay,

2115
01:50:08,920 --> 01:50:11,559
Speaker 2: I've enjoyed doing something where I feel like I'm kind

2116
01:50:11,600 --> 01:50:15,280
Speaker 2: of hopefully contributing to the positive side of the karmic

2117
01:50:15,360 --> 01:50:17,280
Speaker 2: balance sheet every day. What else do I care about?

2118
01:50:17,800 --> 01:50:20,160
Speaker 2: So this is like nineteen eighty nine, and this was

2119
01:50:20,200 --> 01:50:24,400
Speaker 2: the start of the influx of chain of out Californians

2120
01:50:24,439 --> 01:50:27,360
Speaker 2: and other in Seattle. And I loved the natural environment

2121
01:50:27,439 --> 01:50:29,360
Speaker 2: here and grew up out on the water and in

2122
01:50:29,400 --> 01:50:30,760
Speaker 2: the mountains, and I thought, well, I want to get

2123
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:35,320
Speaker 2: involved in, you know, natural resource issues. So I spent

2124
01:50:35,400 --> 01:50:37,519
Speaker 2: a year applying to law school, because what do you

2125
01:50:37,600 --> 01:50:39,200
Speaker 2: do when you're a fucking English major. You go to

2126
01:50:39,280 --> 01:50:42,000
Speaker 2: law school, right, You're not going to go back and

2127
01:50:42,040 --> 01:50:45,720
Speaker 2: get a PhD and in you know, bioengineering. So I

2128
01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:49,880
Speaker 2: did that, and I got all my acceptances and rejections,

2129
01:50:49,960 --> 01:50:52,080
Speaker 2: and my dad and I were in Sun Valley skiing

2130
01:50:52,160 --> 01:50:53,720
Speaker 2: for a couple of weeks in the spring, and I

2131
01:50:53,800 --> 01:50:57,960
Speaker 2: remember after dark going over and sitting on the stopped

2132
01:50:58,040 --> 01:51:00,280
Speaker 2: chairlift at the bottom of warm springs and looking up

2133
01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:02,160
Speaker 2: at the hill and going, I don't want to be

2134
01:51:02,240 --> 01:51:04,639
Speaker 2: a lawyer. What am I doing? So then I spent

2135
01:51:04,720 --> 01:51:08,679
Speaker 2: another year working doing some public affairs stuff and applying

2136
01:51:08,720 --> 01:51:11,559
Speaker 2: to graduate school in urban.

2137
01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:13,160
Speaker 1: So wirebin planning.

2138
01:51:14,080 --> 01:51:16,519
Speaker 2: It seemed like the other land use planning seemed like

2139
01:51:16,560 --> 01:51:19,439
Speaker 2: the one other professional degree that I could angle my

2140
01:51:19,560 --> 01:51:22,160
Speaker 2: way into with an English degree and where I could

2141
01:51:22,280 --> 01:51:25,200
Speaker 2: get involved in these natural resource issues that I wanted.

2142
01:51:25,280 --> 01:51:27,800
Speaker 1: Well, needless to say, you didn't continue on that path,

2143
01:51:28,560 --> 01:51:31,840
Speaker 1: but before you stopped, was it a good experience in

2144
01:51:31,960 --> 01:51:32,759
Speaker 1: graduate school?

2145
01:51:33,720 --> 01:51:36,040
Speaker 2: It was great. I loved it. I was in the Yeah,

2146
01:51:36,080 --> 01:51:40,840
Speaker 2: I was the University Washington graduate school. I was in

2147
01:51:40,960 --> 01:51:43,400
Speaker 2: the land use planning track. I was actually writing my

2148
01:51:43,479 --> 01:51:46,200
Speaker 2: thesis on what at the time was a fairly nascent

2149
01:51:46,880 --> 01:51:51,960
Speaker 2: subject area, which was green or environmentally conscious golf course

2150
01:51:52,040 --> 01:51:54,640
Speaker 2: design and management, which in nineteen ninety three was not

2151
01:51:54,760 --> 01:51:57,120
Speaker 2: really a thing. Now it's kind of pro forma. So

2152
01:51:57,280 --> 01:52:00,360
Speaker 2: my timing was great. I was super excited. So when

2153
01:52:00,439 --> 01:52:02,400
Speaker 2: we were, you know, a year and a half later,

2154
01:52:03,200 --> 01:52:07,519
Speaker 2: contemplating Columbia's offer, I was actually a really hard decision

2155
01:52:07,560 --> 01:52:09,559
Speaker 2: for me. I was like on a path that I'd

2156
01:52:09,600 --> 01:52:12,840
Speaker 2: struggled to get on, really had taken some work, and

2157
01:52:13,000 --> 01:52:15,760
Speaker 2: I was ready to go do it. And I just

2158
01:52:15,880 --> 01:52:18,679
Speaker 2: kind of eventually the advance was big enough. I basically

2159
01:52:19,240 --> 01:52:22,519
Speaker 2: made a very calculated mercenary decision, like I can live

2160
01:52:22,640 --> 01:52:25,400
Speaker 2: like a grad student for another two years on this advance,

2161
01:52:25,960 --> 01:52:28,840
Speaker 2: and the industry's buzzing, and I think something's going to happen,

2162
01:52:28,960 --> 01:52:30,120
Speaker 2: so I guess I'll go for it.

2163
01:52:30,400 --> 01:52:33,479
Speaker 1: Okay, the band is over.

2164
01:52:34,080 --> 01:52:34,640
Speaker 3: What do you do?

2165
01:52:37,200 --> 01:52:39,840
Speaker 2: Well? The band is over. We did the thing with

2166
01:52:39,920 --> 01:52:41,640
Speaker 2: sir mix a Lot for like a year and a

2167
01:52:41,680 --> 01:52:44,320
Speaker 2: half subset, which I really thought was going to be massive.

2168
01:52:44,360 --> 01:52:47,519
Speaker 2: It was so good. Mix a Lot is you gotta

2169
01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:50,040
Speaker 2: have him on your show. He is the most fascinating,

2170
01:52:50,680 --> 01:52:55,360
Speaker 2: brilliant dude. You know he is. He's a he's so smart.

2171
01:52:56,520 --> 01:52:58,000
Speaker 2: And that band was you know, me and Chris and

2172
01:52:58,120 --> 01:53:04,160
Speaker 2: Jason Keys drums, bass, guitar, mix and one of his sidekicks,

2173
01:53:05,040 --> 01:53:08,160
Speaker 2: out of Sight another rapper, and the recordings are out there,

2174
01:53:08,680 --> 01:53:11,960
Speaker 2: they're on YouTube, and it was. The shows we played

2175
01:53:12,479 --> 01:53:14,840
Speaker 2: were like, I mean the Presidents at their heyday, Like

2176
01:53:14,920 --> 01:53:17,840
Speaker 2: playing at the Crocodile and Seattle was insane. This was

2177
01:53:18,040 --> 01:53:21,240
Speaker 2: like an order of magnitude. I have never seen an

2178
01:53:21,320 --> 01:53:24,200
Speaker 2: audience like these, you know, maybe the thirty or forty

2179
01:53:24,240 --> 01:53:26,719
Speaker 2: shows we played. And Mix a Lot was just a master.

2180
01:53:27,160 --> 01:53:28,840
Speaker 2: He could just hold the audience in the palm of

2181
01:53:28,920 --> 01:53:32,439
Speaker 2: his hand, just for ninety minutes. But it just didn't

2182
01:53:32,760 --> 01:53:35,360
Speaker 2: come together. Whether it was timing with the sound or

2183
01:53:35,479 --> 01:53:38,519
Speaker 2: our management situation or whatever, it just never got any

2184
01:53:38,600 --> 01:53:42,680
Speaker 2: traction organically. It was just on fire. So we did

2185
01:53:42,760 --> 01:53:50,439
Speaker 2: that and then I kind of started getting I talked

2186
01:53:50,479 --> 01:53:53,240
Speaker 2: to E Music was interested in me doing a solo

2187
01:53:53,360 --> 01:53:55,400
Speaker 2: deal with them. That's when they were just starting out

2188
01:53:55,439 --> 01:53:58,400
Speaker 2: as an electronic music label, not really a you know,

2189
01:53:58,760 --> 01:54:01,840
Speaker 2: a streaming service. I never forgot to have a meeting

2190
01:54:01,880 --> 01:54:04,400
Speaker 2: with Sandy Pearlman, who made some of my favorite records.

2191
01:54:05,600 --> 01:54:08,200
Speaker 2: I didn't really I did make some solo recordings that

2192
01:54:08,280 --> 01:54:11,000
Speaker 2: I still have, you know, sitting around in a box somewhere.

2193
01:54:11,160 --> 01:54:14,519
Speaker 2: It wasn't that excited about it. Spent some time you

2194
01:54:14,600 --> 01:54:17,439
Speaker 2: asked if we got screwed, spent some time leading our

2195
01:54:17,600 --> 01:54:20,599
Speaker 2: auditing of Sony Music and EMI. That was some work

2196
01:54:20,680 --> 01:54:23,639
Speaker 2: for a while, and eventually kind of just realized, wow,

2197
01:54:23,720 --> 01:54:25,679
Speaker 2: you know, that was a good chapter in my life.

2198
01:54:25,760 --> 01:54:27,960
Speaker 2: But I like, the reason I like to work is

2199
01:54:28,040 --> 01:54:30,120
Speaker 2: because I like to learn, So I'm going to keep

2200
01:54:30,240 --> 01:54:33,000
Speaker 2: doing stuff. So I eventually sort of gravitated back toward

2201
01:54:33,440 --> 01:54:37,080
Speaker 2: this public affairs stuff i'd been doing, which was around

2202
01:54:37,840 --> 01:54:41,560
Speaker 2: natural resource issues and civic stuff and social justice, and

2203
01:54:42,360 --> 01:54:48,160
Speaker 2: ended up back I'd helped in nineteen ninety three start

2204
01:54:48,240 --> 01:54:52,040
Speaker 2: this company called Pyramid Communications, which became a big public

2205
01:54:52,080 --> 01:54:54,520
Speaker 2: affairs firm in Seattle, and they're still around. Actually the

2206
01:54:54,560 --> 01:54:58,360
Speaker 2: first two employees were me and Nicole Vandenberg, who for many, many,

2207
01:54:58,400 --> 01:55:02,280
Speaker 2: many years has run Pearl Jam philanthropic efforts and kind

2208
01:55:02,320 --> 01:55:05,360
Speaker 2: of co manage them. And so I went back to

2209
01:55:05,440 --> 01:55:08,200
Speaker 2: that company and ended up working there for a few

2210
01:55:08,280 --> 01:55:12,600
Speaker 2: years and in the meantime on the side. Because I

2211
01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:15,360
Speaker 2: was an artist and I've sort of managed the president's

2212
01:55:15,360 --> 01:55:19,480
Speaker 2: stuff and I could put two sentences together, I without

2213
01:55:19,600 --> 01:55:22,520
Speaker 2: trying became I guess you'd say, a thought leader around

2214
01:55:22,560 --> 01:55:24,960
Speaker 2: digital music because I get invited to be on panels

2215
01:55:25,040 --> 01:55:28,600
Speaker 2: or to moderate panels at Digital Music Form West or

2216
01:55:28,640 --> 01:55:30,520
Speaker 2: East or any of these, you know, all these events,

2217
01:55:31,200 --> 01:55:33,440
Speaker 2: and I'd meet people and get invited to be on

2218
01:55:33,560 --> 01:55:37,000
Speaker 2: advisory boards. And I got invited to be on advisory

2219
01:55:37,040 --> 01:55:40,520
Speaker 2: board of a venture backed company in Seattle called Melodio,

2220
01:55:40,960 --> 01:55:42,920
Speaker 2: who had been one of the first to try to

2221
01:55:43,040 --> 01:55:47,839
Speaker 2: do MP three downloads to you know, direct to digital phones.

2222
01:55:48,680 --> 01:55:52,520
Speaker 2: And I joined the advisory board, and after a few

2223
01:55:52,600 --> 01:55:54,160
Speaker 2: years they kept trying to hire me, and at the

2224
01:55:54,320 --> 01:55:56,600
Speaker 2: end of two thousand and six, I jumped ship from

2225
01:55:56,640 --> 01:56:01,200
Speaker 2: the public affairs thing, went there, helped run that company

2226
01:56:01,360 --> 01:56:04,160
Speaker 2: for like four four and a half years. We helped

2227
01:56:04,480 --> 01:56:07,320
Speaker 2: we sold it to Hewlett Packard. I did two years

2228
01:56:07,320 --> 01:56:10,160
Speaker 2: at Hewlett Packard, which is a whole episode of The

2229
01:56:10,240 --> 01:56:15,240
Speaker 2: Office that is another conversation. And then my kind of

2230
01:56:15,480 --> 01:56:18,480
Speaker 2: key hire earnout ended there and I ended up at Amazon.

2231
01:56:19,040 --> 01:56:20,200
Speaker 1: How'd you end up at Amazon?

2232
01:56:20,680 --> 01:56:25,000
Speaker 2: I ended up at Amazon because an old friend, Chris

2233
01:56:25,080 --> 01:56:27,280
Speaker 2: de Vore, who I knew from way back to like

2234
01:56:27,400 --> 01:56:31,600
Speaker 2: middle school, as an entrepreneur in Seattle, and his brother Andrew,

2235
01:56:31,640 --> 01:56:34,960
Speaker 2: who I also knew from childhood, is senior counsel there.

2236
01:56:35,040 --> 01:56:37,440
Speaker 2: And I was having lunch with Chris, and he's like,

2237
01:56:37,640 --> 01:56:39,240
Speaker 2: you got the other hiring on the music You got

2238
01:56:39,320 --> 01:56:40,800
Speaker 2: to talk to my brother. And so I talked to

2239
01:56:40,880 --> 01:56:43,520
Speaker 2: Andrew and he put me into the you know, the

2240
01:56:44,000 --> 01:56:47,240
Speaker 2: the grinder of the Amazon hiring process, and you know,

2241
01:56:47,480 --> 01:56:50,640
Speaker 2: six months later, I ended up getting hired to do

2242
01:56:50,800 --> 01:56:52,920
Speaker 2: a job I didn't really want to do at the time,

2243
01:56:52,960 --> 01:56:55,520
Speaker 2: which was I got hired to run the licensing team

2244
01:56:56,080 --> 01:56:59,200
Speaker 2: to negotiate with the labels, and did that for about

2245
01:56:59,200 --> 01:57:02,440
Speaker 2: ten months. And when I joined, we had no plans

2246
01:57:02,480 --> 01:57:05,200
Speaker 2: to launch a streaming service, which was a surprise because

2247
01:57:05,240 --> 01:57:08,080
Speaker 2: they don't tell you anything when you're interviewing. But in

2248
01:57:08,160 --> 01:57:11,240
Speaker 2: the ensuing six months we wrote you know, some of

2249
01:57:11,320 --> 01:57:14,600
Speaker 2: these epic legendary Amazon six pages and got approval to

2250
01:57:14,720 --> 01:57:17,960
Speaker 2: launch Prime Music. And then as we're getting ready to

2251
01:57:18,000 --> 01:57:20,240
Speaker 2: launch Prime Music, it donned on everybody, oh, we have

2252
01:57:20,440 --> 01:57:25,000
Speaker 2: no music programming or editorial function whatsoever. So I sort

2253
01:57:25,000 --> 01:57:27,600
Speaker 2: of put my hand up and wrote the job description

2254
01:57:28,360 --> 01:57:31,000
Speaker 2: to lead that, and led that for the first few

2255
01:57:31,080 --> 01:57:33,840
Speaker 2: years and hired the you know, the initial group of

2256
01:57:34,000 --> 01:57:37,440
Speaker 2: music programmers and editorial people. And that was a whole

2257
01:57:37,520 --> 01:57:41,680
Speaker 2: other adventure that who you know, who knows my kids

2258
01:57:41,760 --> 01:57:46,160
Speaker 2: ask you know, who knows what should I do? I'm like,

2259
01:57:46,360 --> 01:57:47,920
Speaker 2: you know, if you told me when I was twenty

2260
01:57:47,960 --> 01:57:51,040
Speaker 2: three teaching English that ten years later I'd be selling

2261
01:57:51,240 --> 01:57:53,200
Speaker 2: millions of records, and then told me ten years later

2262
01:57:53,240 --> 01:57:55,600
Speaker 2: I'd be working for Hewlett Packard, like I wouldn't have

2263
01:57:55,680 --> 01:57:58,360
Speaker 2: believed any of it, Like, how the hell did this happen?

2264
01:57:58,760 --> 01:58:02,320
Speaker 2: And I'm risk averse. I'm not a risk taker.

2265
01:58:03,000 --> 01:58:04,320
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit more about that.

2266
01:58:05,360 --> 01:58:10,520
Speaker 2: I'm a fairly self contained, you know, left brain to

2267
01:58:10,720 --> 01:58:15,080
Speaker 2: a fault, kind of hyper rational linear thinker. I'm not

2268
01:58:15,280 --> 01:58:18,320
Speaker 2: a look before you leap, and I look back on

2269
01:58:18,440 --> 01:58:20,640
Speaker 2: what I did, and I'm like, I have no idea

2270
01:58:21,200 --> 01:58:23,160
Speaker 2: how and why I made these choices, but they were

2271
01:58:23,200 --> 01:58:26,360
Speaker 2: all deeply considered at the time, and I don't know.

2272
01:58:26,800 --> 01:58:27,960
Speaker 2: It's a mystery to me.

2273
01:58:28,120 --> 01:58:31,560
Speaker 1: Well, you talk about these old friends, Are you a networker?

2274
01:58:31,640 --> 01:58:33,520
Speaker 1: Are you the type of person who keeps contact with

2275
01:58:33,640 --> 01:58:34,200
Speaker 1: old friends?

2276
01:58:35,120 --> 01:58:37,760
Speaker 2: And the older I get, the more I really just

2277
01:58:37,880 --> 01:58:41,040
Speaker 2: try to double down on my half dozen closest friends,

2278
01:58:41,200 --> 01:58:44,440
Speaker 2: you know. And those are all from high school, honestly,

2279
01:58:44,600 --> 01:58:48,480
Speaker 2: really or before, mostly people that I spent time doing

2280
01:58:48,480 --> 01:58:51,120
Speaker 2: stuff in the woods with, you know, skiing, climbing, mountaineering

2281
01:58:51,200 --> 01:58:54,120
Speaker 2: and that kind of stuff. Those are still my best friends.

2282
01:58:54,360 --> 01:58:55,839
Speaker 1: So how does it end in Amazon?

2283
01:58:58,720 --> 01:59:01,440
Speaker 2: It ends at Amazon. I did five years on the

2284
01:59:01,560 --> 01:59:05,040
Speaker 2: music team and kind of reached a point where there

2285
01:59:05,160 --> 01:59:08,760
Speaker 2: wasn't the right job for me there and they needed

2286
01:59:08,840 --> 01:59:11,880
Speaker 2: somebody to do BIZDV on the Echo Alexa team to

2287
01:59:12,000 --> 01:59:15,680
Speaker 2: do deals with the outside music services. So the last

2288
01:59:15,760 --> 01:59:17,760
Speaker 2: four and a half years, I went to the Alexa

2289
01:59:17,840 --> 01:59:20,880
Speaker 2: team and I did deals, you know, with to bring

2290
01:59:21,120 --> 01:59:24,920
Speaker 2: Apple Music and Apple Podcasts to Echo Alexa, etc. So

2291
01:59:25,480 --> 01:59:30,520
Speaker 2: talking to all those Pandora, the obvious partner Spotify, and

2292
01:59:30,720 --> 01:59:32,680
Speaker 2: I did that for four and a half years, and

2293
01:59:32,960 --> 01:59:35,240
Speaker 2: the last year I was there, I spent I wrote,

2294
01:59:36,240 --> 01:59:39,840
Speaker 2: infinitely rewrote one of these six pages on finding ways

2295
01:59:39,880 --> 01:59:45,480
Speaker 2: to monetize advertising revenue from sports broadcasting cast over Alexa

2296
01:59:46,280 --> 01:59:49,560
Speaker 2: and kind of after iterating a million times, kind of

2297
01:59:49,600 --> 01:59:51,840
Speaker 2: reached a dead end with that in terms of whether

2298
01:59:51,960 --> 01:59:54,840
Speaker 2: our team could push it through or not. And at

2299
01:59:54,880 --> 01:59:59,200
Speaker 2: that point, I'm fifty seven or whatever, fifty eight, and

2300
01:59:59,240 --> 02:00:02,120
Speaker 2: I knew I wasn't gonna work at Amazon past sixty

2301
02:00:02,240 --> 02:00:04,520
Speaker 2: at the most. And it was just the right It

2302
02:00:04,640 --> 02:00:07,920
Speaker 2: was either leave or go to another part of the company.

2303
02:00:08,000 --> 02:00:09,840
Speaker 2: And then you really got to double down for a

2304
02:00:09,920 --> 02:00:11,960
Speaker 2: few years to prove yourself again.

2305
02:00:12,160 --> 02:00:14,120
Speaker 1: So it's just the right time, Okay, Is that the

2306
02:00:14,200 --> 02:00:15,520
Speaker 1: last day job you've had?

2307
02:00:16,400 --> 02:00:17,919
Speaker 2: It is the last day job, okay?

2308
02:00:19,480 --> 02:00:23,480
Speaker 1: Interacting with people at Amazon, it you essentially worked there

2309
02:00:23,520 --> 02:00:26,440
Speaker 1: for ten years, and you were referencing this earlier people

2310
02:00:26,520 --> 02:00:28,200
Speaker 1: worked for a couple of years they go to Netflix.

2311
02:00:28,280 --> 02:00:29,840
Speaker 1: Whatever you hear that.

2312
02:00:29,920 --> 02:00:30,240
Speaker 2: It's a.

2313
02:00:31,840 --> 02:00:35,160
Speaker 1: Cutthroat is not the right word, but you know, a

2314
02:00:35,360 --> 02:00:39,000
Speaker 1: harryd lifestyle. They're working you, you know all the time.

2315
02:00:39,080 --> 02:00:43,680
Speaker 1: There's a lot of pressure, not many human concerns.

2316
02:00:43,760 --> 02:00:48,240
Speaker 2: What was your experience, my experience. I loved my experience there.

2317
02:00:48,440 --> 02:00:51,120
Speaker 2: I loved you know, it's a culture of writing for

2318
02:00:51,200 --> 02:00:53,120
Speaker 2: the most part. Now some of this has changed. When

2319
02:00:53,120 --> 02:00:55,800
Speaker 2: I joined, there were eight or ten thousand corporate employees.

2320
02:00:55,880 --> 02:00:58,000
Speaker 2: Now they're like one hundred and twenty five thousand, right,

2321
02:00:58,160 --> 02:01:01,360
Speaker 2: So I would say the culture is got maybe a

2322
02:01:01,400 --> 02:01:04,560
Speaker 2: little bit less rigorous. But when I got there one

2323
02:01:04,640 --> 02:01:06,480
Speaker 2: it was kind of an eye opener because the soft

2324
02:01:06,560 --> 02:01:09,000
Speaker 2: skills that I have that I have worked for me,

2325
02:01:09,160 --> 02:01:13,160
Speaker 2: like being charming and gary less and being social, weren't

2326
02:01:13,160 --> 02:01:15,560
Speaker 2: worth shit. It was like, put up a shut up

2327
02:01:15,720 --> 02:01:18,520
Speaker 2: and write it down. You know, these six pages you write,

2328
02:01:18,680 --> 02:01:22,520
Speaker 2: single space, ten point font, tiny margin, write out what

2329
02:01:22,640 --> 02:01:25,160
Speaker 2: you want to do. Fortunately, I like to write. I

2330
02:01:25,200 --> 02:01:27,560
Speaker 2: grew up in a family of writers, and so I

2331
02:01:27,800 --> 02:01:32,080
Speaker 2: loved that intellectual rigor. I totally thrived on that. Also,

2332
02:01:32,720 --> 02:01:35,120
Speaker 2: particularly the first four or five years I was there,

2333
02:01:36,160 --> 02:01:38,760
Speaker 2: I did not I would have to say, every single

2334
02:01:38,840 --> 02:01:41,040
Speaker 2: person I worked with I felt was smarter than I was.

2335
02:01:41,560 --> 02:01:43,800
Speaker 2: And that is fun to work with people where you

2336
02:01:43,880 --> 02:01:46,680
Speaker 2: feel like you have to raise your own game every day.

2337
02:01:46,880 --> 02:01:50,000
Speaker 2: And that's people three levels below me to Bezos, who

2338
02:01:50,040 --> 02:01:52,000
Speaker 2: I only had one business meeting with, and he was

2339
02:01:52,040 --> 02:01:53,320
Speaker 2: so fucking smart it was scary.

2340
02:01:53,800 --> 02:01:56,360
Speaker 1: You know, Well, since you have this experience and you

2341
02:01:56,480 --> 02:01:58,440
Speaker 1: realize he was smart. What was that meeting?

2342
02:01:59,240 --> 02:02:01,920
Speaker 2: The meeting was it's the final review before we launched

2343
02:02:01,920 --> 02:02:04,000
Speaker 2: Prime Music. A few months before we launched it. It

2344
02:02:04,120 --> 02:02:06,280
Speaker 2: was his final sign off, So it was him and

2345
02:02:06,400 --> 02:02:09,640
Speaker 2: most of the SVP team and then like maybe five

2346
02:02:09,720 --> 02:02:11,320
Speaker 2: of us from the music team. And since I was

2347
02:02:11,440 --> 02:02:14,360
Speaker 2: leading music programming, I was there to share our music

2348
02:02:14,440 --> 02:02:17,440
Speaker 2: programming strategy. And what I remember from the meeting that

2349
02:02:18,560 --> 02:02:21,760
Speaker 2: I can share is, you know, you may have heard

2350
02:02:21,800 --> 02:02:24,360
Speaker 2: about these meetings there. They're like grad school seminars. You

2351
02:02:24,440 --> 02:02:27,280
Speaker 2: come in the room, it's a very dense document. You

2352
02:02:27,440 --> 02:02:30,000
Speaker 2: sit in silence for at least an hour and read

2353
02:02:30,040 --> 02:02:33,640
Speaker 2: it and annotate it. And so you do that and

2354
02:02:33,960 --> 02:02:36,040
Speaker 2: then you start discussing it and marking it up and

2355
02:02:36,160 --> 02:02:37,960
Speaker 2: if there are problems with it, Like I was in

2356
02:02:38,040 --> 02:02:42,000
Speaker 2: meetings where people are where the SVP or senior leaders,

2357
02:02:42,080 --> 02:02:44,960
Speaker 2: Like on this page, page one, this you know revenue

2358
02:02:45,040 --> 02:02:46,680
Speaker 2: number is this, and then you cite the same number

2359
02:02:46,720 --> 02:02:48,720
Speaker 2: on page four. It's not a different number. So fucking

2360
02:02:48,760 --> 02:02:50,400
Speaker 2: fix that, and then we'll come back and have the meeting,

2361
02:02:50,480 --> 02:02:53,440
Speaker 2: because why should I trust anything in this document? Anyway,

2362
02:02:53,480 --> 02:02:57,360
Speaker 2: our document was okay within the first five minutes of

2363
02:02:57,400 --> 02:02:59,840
Speaker 2: the meeting. You know this how complicated this stuff is,

2364
02:02:59,880 --> 02:03:02,160
Speaker 2: like the functionality that you can do in a digital

2365
02:03:02,240 --> 02:03:05,240
Speaker 2: service versus the penny rate you're paying, and sort of

2366
02:03:05,280 --> 02:03:08,640
Speaker 2: the trade offs there and all the negotiation involved, and

2367
02:03:09,000 --> 02:03:11,480
Speaker 2: how complicated it is for me, even when I was

2368
02:03:11,560 --> 02:03:13,960
Speaker 2: working in it full time, Like I have to be

2369
02:03:14,080 --> 02:03:16,880
Speaker 2: doing that part of the job all day every day

2370
02:03:16,960 --> 02:03:20,800
Speaker 2: to stay conversant in all the details. And Bezos is

2371
02:03:20,880 --> 02:03:23,160
Speaker 2: not a music guy. He doesn't he's not into listening

2372
02:03:23,240 --> 02:03:25,520
Speaker 2: to music. He thinks the music business sucked, or he

2373
02:03:25,640 --> 02:03:27,920
Speaker 2: did for a long time when it was a sales

2374
02:03:28,120 --> 02:03:31,520
Speaker 2: or an acquisition based business. Within the first five minutes

2375
02:03:31,560 --> 02:03:34,040
Speaker 2: of the meeting, he asked this question that was so

2376
02:03:34,480 --> 02:03:38,840
Speaker 2: inside baseball based on product functionality versus the rate we

2377
02:03:38,920 --> 02:03:41,760
Speaker 2: were paying. I just I was like stupefied. Like my

2378
02:03:42,000 --> 02:03:44,800
Speaker 2: jaw dropped. I was just like, how the fuck did

2379
02:03:44,880 --> 02:03:46,840
Speaker 2: you do that? This is somebody who doesn't even pay

2380
02:03:46,880 --> 02:03:49,400
Speaker 2: attention to the music business. And he went like right

2381
02:03:49,480 --> 02:03:51,680
Speaker 2: to the heart of the kind of the nexus of

2382
02:03:51,760 --> 02:03:55,040
Speaker 2: where the cost met, what the challenges, what we could

2383
02:03:55,040 --> 02:03:57,440
Speaker 2: do in terms of what we delivered to customers. It

2384
02:03:57,520 --> 02:04:01,640
Speaker 2: was it was mind blowing. It was like watching It's

2385
02:04:01,720 --> 02:04:03,760
Speaker 2: like you're running one hundred meter dash and you're watching

2386
02:04:03,840 --> 02:04:06,320
Speaker 2: Carl Lewis or Ussein Bolt next to you. It's just like,

2387
02:04:06,680 --> 02:04:10,400
Speaker 2: clearly some people are genetically more gifted in as far

2388
02:04:10,480 --> 02:04:11,240
Speaker 2: as intelling.

2389
02:04:11,000 --> 02:04:14,760
Speaker 1: Okay, when you work for Amazon, is it a nine

2390
02:04:14,840 --> 02:04:17,480
Speaker 1: to five job? Is twenty four to seven job?

2391
02:04:17,880 --> 02:04:21,280
Speaker 2: It's twenty four to seven. And that's the fun of it, Like,

2392
02:04:21,440 --> 02:04:23,520
Speaker 2: you know, for me work because I've always wanted to

2393
02:04:23,600 --> 02:04:27,720
Speaker 2: have jobs. I'm making rabbit ears where I'm into it.

2394
02:04:27,840 --> 02:04:29,520
Speaker 2: I mean, if you're not into it and you're not learning,

2395
02:04:30,080 --> 02:04:34,440
Speaker 2: I've never really cared about title or career achievement. If

2396
02:04:34,520 --> 02:04:37,680
Speaker 2: I'm learning and I believe what I'm doing is sort

2397
02:04:37,720 --> 02:04:41,720
Speaker 2: of karmically positive and I feel like I'm reasonably well paid,

2398
02:04:41,800 --> 02:04:44,560
Speaker 2: then I'm happy, And oh my god, talk about learning

2399
02:04:44,680 --> 02:04:47,840
Speaker 2: and also, I you know, different teams are different. The

2400
02:04:47,960 --> 02:04:52,800
Speaker 2: music team has incredible retention at Amazon. Steve Boom is

2401
02:04:52,880 --> 02:04:56,520
Speaker 2: an awesome dude. He's a great human being and a

2402
02:04:56,800 --> 02:04:59,560
Speaker 2: very strong and powerful business leader, which is not always

2403
02:04:59,600 --> 02:05:02,760
Speaker 2: the case. Ryan Reddington, who now mostly runs the business

2404
02:05:02,840 --> 02:05:05,760
Speaker 2: now that Steve's been promoted, exact same thing, like the

2405
02:05:05,840 --> 02:05:10,000
Speaker 2: most down to earth guy, super smart, super humble, actually

2406
02:05:10,080 --> 02:05:11,880
Speaker 2: cares about the people who work on his team. So

2407
02:05:12,080 --> 02:05:15,720
Speaker 2: I think the music team at Amazon, in particulars has

2408
02:05:15,800 --> 02:05:18,000
Speaker 2: been I know a ton of the people I hired

2409
02:05:18,040 --> 02:05:20,320
Speaker 2: ten years ago are still there, which is, you know,

2410
02:05:20,920 --> 02:05:21,600
Speaker 2: not the norm.

2411
02:05:22,760 --> 02:05:25,480
Speaker 1: So does every musician in Seattle know each other.

2412
02:05:26,680 --> 02:05:32,160
Speaker 2: Of a certain generation? For sure? Like my generation? Definitely

2413
02:05:32,440 --> 02:05:34,200
Speaker 2: there's I mean, we all, okay.

2414
02:05:34,040 --> 02:05:38,000
Speaker 1: Sir, mix A lot stayed in Seattle. Duff McKagan went

2415
02:05:38,080 --> 02:05:40,280
Speaker 1: to La Guns n' Roses. How do you end up

2416
02:05:40,360 --> 02:05:41,880
Speaker 1: playing with Duff mccig.

2417
02:05:42,440 --> 02:05:46,320
Speaker 2: So, Duff and I grew up in adjacent neighborhoods, and

2418
02:05:46,520 --> 02:05:50,040
Speaker 2: I met him in seventh grade. And when I went

2419
02:05:50,200 --> 02:05:56,480
Speaker 2: to private school, the friends that I had from grade school,

2420
02:05:56,480 --> 02:05:59,360
Speaker 2: I went to the big feeder public middle school that

2421
02:05:59,360 --> 02:06:01,240
Speaker 2: I would have gone to, which is so good that

2422
02:06:01,320 --> 02:06:03,600
Speaker 2: I didn't go there because by seventh grade I would

2423
02:06:03,640 --> 02:06:06,960
Speaker 2: have been stealing cars with stuff and the other juvenile

2424
02:06:07,000 --> 02:06:10,240
Speaker 2: delinquents there because I was into that. I would have

2425
02:06:10,320 --> 02:06:13,600
Speaker 2: been all into it. So he became friends with, you know,

2426
02:06:13,640 --> 02:06:15,600
Speaker 2: a bunch of my grade school friends. So I knew

2427
02:06:15,680 --> 02:06:18,080
Speaker 2: him in like junior high and high school. He went

2428
02:06:18,120 --> 02:06:20,480
Speaker 2: to Roosevelt High School, which is my neighborhood high school,

2429
02:06:20,880 --> 02:06:23,640
Speaker 2: and we weren't friends, but you know, everybody knew each other.

2430
02:06:23,760 --> 02:06:26,200
Speaker 2: We were at the same high school class. And then

2431
02:06:27,520 --> 02:06:31,520
Speaker 2: he and I re met the first time the Presidents

2432
02:06:31,520 --> 02:06:33,520
Speaker 2: played a show that wasn't a showcase in LA it

2433
02:06:33,640 --> 02:06:35,760
Speaker 2: was in the La Times. It was kind of funny

2434
02:06:35,760 --> 02:06:38,600
Speaker 2: because he and I didn't really know each other as kids. Mean,

2435
02:06:38,680 --> 02:06:41,040
Speaker 2: we you know, we're at the keegar at little Hurst

2436
02:06:41,080 --> 02:06:47,480
Speaker 2: Park together and had mutual friends. But yeah, we're playing

2437
02:06:47,560 --> 02:06:49,680
Speaker 2: at the Whiskey and I look up in the balcony,

2438
02:06:49,760 --> 02:06:51,680
Speaker 2: you know, in the green rooms up there by the cocony,

2439
02:06:51,720 --> 02:06:53,760
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I'm like fuck because he had, you know,

2440
02:06:53,880 --> 02:06:55,920
Speaker 2: he'd he bought this house in Seattle, like a half

2441
02:06:56,000 --> 02:06:57,840
Speaker 2: block from my mom's house, and I'd seen him when

2442
02:06:57,880 --> 02:06:59,880
Speaker 2: he was still drinking heavily and stuff, and I was

2443
02:06:59,880 --> 02:07:02,360
Speaker 2: just like, see him come out to his car and stuff.

2444
02:07:02,400 --> 02:07:04,280
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't really need to stop and say hi.

2445
02:07:04,920 --> 02:07:07,200
Speaker 2: But this point he's sober. It's nineteen ninety five and

2446
02:07:07,280 --> 02:07:10,280
Speaker 2: he's up. I'm like, oh, that's tough. And we finished playing.

2447
02:07:10,360 --> 02:07:12,440
Speaker 2: We walk up to the green room door and I

2448
02:07:12,520 --> 02:07:14,760
Speaker 2: walk over to Duff. I'm like, hey, duff' stave dietere.

2449
02:07:14,800 --> 02:07:16,320
Speaker 2: You know, like, you went to school with my cousin Mark,

2450
02:07:16,360 --> 02:07:19,200
Speaker 2: and you're best friends with Brian, you know McCarty who

2451
02:07:19,240 --> 02:07:20,840
Speaker 2: was you know, we have all these friends in common.

2452
02:07:21,000 --> 02:07:23,920
Speaker 2: He's like, oh, fuck yeah. And he was so funny.

2453
02:07:23,960 --> 02:07:26,160
Speaker 2: He's like, you know, he has a period of his

2454
02:07:26,240 --> 02:07:30,600
Speaker 2: life where he doesn't remember everything, and I'll never forget

2455
02:07:30,640 --> 02:07:32,680
Speaker 2: what he said. He said. I looked at that. I

2456
02:07:32,760 --> 02:07:34,360
Speaker 2: saw it in the La Times to Day and I

2457
02:07:34,440 --> 02:07:36,400
Speaker 2: saw that you guys were from Seattle and how old

2458
02:07:36,440 --> 02:07:38,960
Speaker 2: you are, and I was like, fuck, I must know

2459
02:07:39,240 --> 02:07:42,920
Speaker 2: one of those guys. So he and I just kind

2460
02:07:42,960 --> 02:07:45,120
Speaker 2: of hit it off. And then in the late nineties

2461
02:07:45,160 --> 02:07:47,360
Speaker 2: he was living in Seattle full time for a few years,

2462
02:07:47,440 --> 02:07:50,080
Speaker 2: so we had a couple bands together. We had this

2463
02:07:50,240 --> 02:07:53,360
Speaker 2: kind of mellow duo The Gentleman, and then he had

2464
02:07:53,400 --> 02:07:55,480
Speaker 2: this hard rock band loaded, and I played in that

2465
02:07:55,640 --> 02:07:58,840
Speaker 2: band a little bit, and then he, you know, was

2466
02:07:58,960 --> 02:08:03,440
Speaker 2: I think it was a benefit for I'm going to

2467
02:08:03,480 --> 02:08:07,280
Speaker 2: get this wrong, Randy Castillo, somebody from some eighties metal band,

2468
02:08:07,720 --> 02:08:10,120
Speaker 2: and that was when he and Slash and Saurim got

2469
02:08:10,200 --> 02:08:12,480
Speaker 2: back together and that led to Velvet Revolver. And he

2470
02:08:12,560 --> 02:08:15,360
Speaker 2: hasn't been in Seattle as much since then. I think

2471
02:08:15,400 --> 02:08:16,480
Speaker 2: he's around most of the time.

2472
02:08:16,560 --> 02:08:16,680
Speaker 3: Now.

2473
02:08:16,960 --> 02:08:18,160
Speaker 2: I haven't seen him much lately.

2474
02:08:18,440 --> 02:08:20,760
Speaker 1: So to what degree are you still playing music?

2475
02:08:21,680 --> 02:08:24,720
Speaker 2: I'm playing more than ever and totally into it. It

2476
02:08:24,840 --> 02:08:27,480
Speaker 2: was for like in the mid two thousands when I

2477
02:08:27,560 --> 02:08:30,280
Speaker 2: stopped touring, I was really trying to be a great

2478
02:08:30,400 --> 02:08:33,280
Speaker 2: dad and a good provider and a good husband, and

2479
02:08:33,400 --> 02:08:35,560
Speaker 2: I just there are only so many hours in the day,

2480
02:08:36,120 --> 02:08:39,200
Speaker 2: and I'd still play the guitar all the time. But then, like,

2481
02:08:39,560 --> 02:08:42,640
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's a few different things. Maybe eight

2482
02:08:42,720 --> 02:08:46,480
Speaker 2: or nine years ago, I got invited to an industry

2483
02:08:46,600 --> 02:08:50,040
Speaker 2: thing at a n arm They had like an industry

2484
02:08:50,160 --> 02:08:54,560
Speaker 2: legends and rockstar jam thing, you know, at the hotel there,

2485
02:08:55,200 --> 02:08:56,920
Speaker 2: and I did that a couple of years I'm like,

2486
02:08:57,080 --> 02:08:58,480
Speaker 2: I'm in the industry and I used to be a

2487
02:08:58,520 --> 02:09:00,240
Speaker 2: rock star. I should be able to do that. Hey,

2488
02:09:00,320 --> 02:09:01,960
Speaker 2: do you guys mind if I join you? And that

2489
02:09:02,160 --> 02:09:05,120
Speaker 2: was fun. My kids started playing music in high school.

2490
02:09:05,280 --> 02:09:07,760
Speaker 2: One of them, a younger one, Lolo, plays the drums,

2491
02:09:07,840 --> 02:09:10,080
Speaker 2: and Una, older one played bass, and they're in the

2492
02:09:10,160 --> 02:09:12,640
Speaker 2: jazz band. And we formed a little jazz trio and

2493
02:09:12,720 --> 02:09:16,680
Speaker 2: we started playing gigs. We probably played fifty gigs in

2494
02:09:16,800 --> 02:09:19,640
Speaker 2: a year and a half before Una graduated from high school.

2495
02:09:19,800 --> 02:09:21,920
Speaker 2: And then I just started. I'm in a band, a

2496
02:09:22,080 --> 02:09:27,280
Speaker 2: kind of like dad band of friends here in suburban Seattle.

2497
02:09:28,000 --> 02:09:30,800
Speaker 2: In another band, Megacat. I haven't been playing with as much,

2498
02:09:30,920 --> 02:09:32,680
Speaker 2: but I've got a couple of records out on a

2499
02:09:32,800 --> 02:09:36,120
Speaker 2: subpop imprint, and that band's getting a lot of buzz

2500
02:09:36,240 --> 02:09:38,400
Speaker 2: right now, so much so that they're so busy I

2501
02:09:38,440 --> 02:09:41,680
Speaker 2: can't do all the gigs. It's like weirdo instruments like

2502
02:09:41,800 --> 02:09:45,520
Speaker 2: krungbin meets the banana splits or something. I don't know

2503
02:09:45,600 --> 02:09:49,520
Speaker 2: how to describe it. As killer in a band Bowie

2504
02:09:49,600 --> 02:09:53,440
Speaker 2: Rex and his Boogie Army all late seventies through early

2505
02:09:53,520 --> 02:09:55,480
Speaker 2: post punk, which is me and a bunch of other

2506
02:09:55,640 --> 02:09:59,320
Speaker 2: Seattle pros. It's me and drummers Mike Musburger who was

2507
02:09:59,360 --> 02:10:02,440
Speaker 2: in the Posy and the Fastbacks. Other guitar players Tim

2508
02:10:02,480 --> 02:10:06,800
Speaker 2: Degiulio who's in Duff's band right now. Just a killer

2509
02:10:07,320 --> 02:10:10,480
Speaker 2: band of local season pros. So I'm playing as many

2510
02:10:10,520 --> 02:10:12,400
Speaker 2: gigs as I can play. It's like being a kid

2511
02:10:12,440 --> 02:10:14,000
Speaker 2: in a candy store again, just for fun.

2512
02:10:14,880 --> 02:10:15,600
Speaker 1: How many gigs?

2513
02:10:15,720 --> 02:10:18,320
Speaker 2: Is that? It was too many? Last year I actually

2514
02:10:18,360 --> 02:10:20,520
Speaker 2: had to back off. I just backed off on Mega

2515
02:10:20,600 --> 02:10:23,000
Speaker 2: Cat a little bit. Last summer. I had two or

2516
02:10:23,040 --> 02:10:25,720
Speaker 2: three gigs a week for like three and a half months,

2517
02:10:25,920 --> 02:10:29,360
Speaker 2: and it was cutting into my recreation time with Jenna,

2518
02:10:29,440 --> 02:10:33,000
Speaker 2: who still has a full, full time gig. So we

2519
02:10:33,560 --> 02:10:35,640
Speaker 2: need to be out on our bikes and doing stuff

2520
02:10:35,680 --> 02:10:37,000
Speaker 2: out in the woods and running.

2521
02:10:37,080 --> 02:10:39,640
Speaker 1: And Okay, I think we're gonna put a bow on

2522
02:10:39,800 --> 02:10:42,320
Speaker 1: this chapter. As you said, you know, we could go

2523
02:10:42,440 --> 02:10:44,960
Speaker 1: deeper into music, but I think this is a good

2524
02:10:45,120 --> 02:10:49,480
Speaker 1: stopping point. We've covered the basics. Dave. I want to

2525
02:10:49,520 --> 02:10:51,640
Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking this time to talk

2526
02:10:51,680 --> 02:10:52,880
Speaker 1: to my audience.

2527
02:10:53,280 --> 02:10:55,840
Speaker 2: As an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Bob. I appreciate it.

2528
02:10:56,960 --> 02:10:59,560
Speaker 1: Till next time. This is Bob left six

2529
02:11:03,800 --> 02:11:21,440
Speaker 2: Sh