1 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business, the podcast in which we speak 2 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: with some of the brightest minds working in the media 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein, chief Media Analysts that Illuminate Intelligence, 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: the subscription market research service formerly known as Variety Intelligence Platform. 5 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: We just announced our rebrand in tandem with the release 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: of our latest special report all about the state of 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: the music industry, and I am fortunate to have the 8 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: reports author Rob Steiner to give us a download on streaming, publishing, 9 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: the concert business, and of course AI. So Rob, thanks 10 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: for joining us. 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 2: Hi, thank you for having me. 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: All right. So, you know, I think there was a 13 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: sense for a long time that the explosion of audio 14 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: streaming had the music industry in a growth mode for 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: a while now, but it seems like a more complicated 16 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: picture is emerging crossed the various revenue streams you are 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: tracking this report, so tell us about that. 18 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, So overall, it is certainly interesting because the music industry, 19 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 2: at least when we're talking about the top level, like 20 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 2: the major labels, the big companies, the major artists, it's 21 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 2: in a really good spot, a record breaking spot. In fact, 22 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: it basically ever since the pandemic, that sort of supercharged 23 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: the growth that was happening with the rise of streaming, 24 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 2: you know, that started taking off around the mid twenty tens, 25 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 2: and then the pandemic hit and that just launched that 26 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: revenue stream into the stratosphere. Same thing with live music. 27 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: All of a sudden, this post pandemic concert demand just 28 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 2: sent a spike in ticket sales and revenues, and that 29 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: was all great, But now twenty twenty four is basically 30 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: across the board signaling a slowdown. We are seeing single 31 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 2: digit percentage growth between twenty twenty three and twenty twenty 32 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 2: four for revenue growth and streaming in particular, and that's 33 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 2: in due part in part due to the fact that 34 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: it is sort of reaching critical mass and paid usership 35 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: in develop markets like the US. Live music is also 36 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 2: seeing a slow down in attendance, and there are it 37 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 2: is increasingly relying more on increased ticket prices more than 38 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: anything else to keep revenue growing. And then by extension too, 39 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 2: as streaming slows down, slisoda is publishing. And then that's 40 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 2: also not to mention the threat that AI poses to 41 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: publishing in particular. So with all of this said, basically 42 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: I saw the industry at an inflection point where if 43 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 2: they continue on their current path, it won't be bad necessarily, 44 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 2: but it probably means that it will be of, you know, 45 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 2: the next few years of flatlining in terms of growth, 46 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 2: which obviously a lot of these companies don't want they 47 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: want to continue growing. 48 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: So there's a lot there. Let's go kind of one 49 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: piece at a time, starting with streaming, which seems to 50 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: be sort of at the center of all of this. 51 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: It sounds like from what you're saying that this is 52 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: a case of market saturation mature development markets. Perhaps they've 53 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: taken up all the Spotify and Apple Music and YouTube 54 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: that they're going to get. So what do we do now? 55 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: Is it just a matter of all, right, well, there's 56 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: plenty of emerging market runway to go, or do we 57 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: need to get more creative in these mature markets. 58 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little bit of both, where on one hand, 59 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: the market or the industry powers that be are now 60 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: looking towards emerging markets for streaming, especially in Latin America 61 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: and Asia and the Middle East in particular, those are 62 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: now pretty much responsible for like the major sources of 63 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: growth in the streaming industry because you know, the likes 64 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: of Spotify, Apple Music. They're still breaking into a lot 65 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: of these markets. So we are going to see the streamers, 66 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: the labels, et cetera, pushing hard into that. The Big 67 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: three of all established a presence throughout Latin America, Middle 68 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: East and so on, and then back home here there 69 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: is sort of a debate going on where basically the 70 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: Big three are really advocating for price increases for the DSPs. 71 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: They believe that ten ninety nine a month is simply 72 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 2: to loaf a price for all the music in the world, 73 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: and to a degree they are right. When Spotify was created, 74 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: it did in a sense solve the industry's biggest issue 75 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: around digital piracy, whereas, how do we get people to 76 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 2: pay for access to all the music in the world online. 77 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: Spotify found a really you know, streamlined solution where they 78 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: kind of simplified the experience of act accessing this music 79 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: online and put it behind a pay wall. People are 80 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: willing to pay for it, and they still are, but 81 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: now it seems like as usership is sort of reaching 82 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: critical mass, there's now a sense that like basically the 83 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: Big Three sort of leading this charge, this idea that 84 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 2: music had lost a lot of value in the Internet age. 85 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: You know, post Napster, post the Internet, and frankly, as 86 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 2: the report gets into the argument can be made that 87 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: music never really recovered the value it lost, you know, 88 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 2: the golden age of the nineties and the CD boom, 89 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: that when you adjust for inflation, at least in the US, 90 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 2: revenue hasn't reached those levels. The peak was nineteen ninety 91 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: nine when Napster was founded. 92 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: And so I wonder, and I think about I make 93 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: the comparison to the video business, where you know, clearly 94 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: we see the netflixes of the world have built themselves 95 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: is a tremendous business. The other players in the market, 96 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: they'll they'll be okay, they're actually starting to turn profit 97 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: after a rough period. But I think there's also an 98 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: acknowledgment that the peak era pre streaming of cable television 99 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: just much better margins and much better business. And so 100 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: is the music business diluting themselves, that they could sort 101 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: of put the monetization toothpaste back in the tube here. 102 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: It's hard to say. I mean, it does seem like 103 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: that the at least the Big three. Their argument is 104 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: that people will be willing to pay for you know, 105 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: higher streaming subscription prices. On one hand, because we you know, 106 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 2: the s VODs of the world and netflixes of the world, 107 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: they've increased their prices several times over in just the 108 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 2: past few years, and Spotify and the DSPs have but 109 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: only like only recently, only within the past two years. 110 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: They've shown they've shown much more patients. And so I 111 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: just wonder whether it's going to be a mistake that 112 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: they're making to push up the prices with the same 113 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: sort of aggressiveness as the netflixes of the world, unless 114 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: they're putting more value into these DSPs, which you know, 115 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: I think of my own Spotisfy subscription and it's not 116 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: just about music for me, it's podcast it's audio books. Yeah, 117 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: and so maybe they're not crazy to push these prices. 118 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, especially with Spotify in particular, they have really 119 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: in just the past couple of years have started pushing 120 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: essentially transferring to platform to being a lot more than 121 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: a music streamer. They wanted to be a multimedia location. 122 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: You know, they have audio books, which has created you know, 123 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: a whole whole litany of issues in terms of music 124 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: royalty payments that we could get into. They have pushed 125 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: hard into video podcasting, but then on the music side 126 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: they are also pushed for. Basically, like the hot button 127 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: concept that has really dominated the industry is leading into 128 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: super fans for a lot of the for a lot 129 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 2: of the Big three, and a lot of these major companies. 130 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: Explain fans, Yeah, yeah. 131 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: It's basically it is the best way to describe it, 132 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: or at least the official way that Illuminate describes it 133 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: based on a survey data. Are people that engage in 134 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: I believe at least five or more music related activities, 135 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 2: so going to a concert, buying merch list in music, 136 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: buying music, et cetera on a pretty regular basis. And 137 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: this group is small, I believe it's about twenty percent 138 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 2: of the US music listeners according to Illuminate, but their 139 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 2: buying power is substantial. There is again with our data, 140 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 2: we have found evidence of that. We've also seen it 141 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 2: in practice give great results for particularly companies based in Asia. 142 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 2: Hype Corporation is probably the biggest success story. They essentially 143 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: launched a super fan app Weavers basically think like a 144 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 2: social media platform but for like paid private fan clubs 145 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 2: for like BTS and a lot of the K pop artists. 146 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: But now it's expanded to like Ariana Grande and du Alipa. 147 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 2: They have been able to generate a substantial amount of 148 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 2: revenue and usership. They have gone up consistently pretty much 149 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 2: every quarter for the past couple of years. Same thing 150 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 2: with ten Cent in China. Their fan club revenue again 151 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 2: based from like, you know, a super fan subscription streaming tier, 152 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: you know, where for an extra couple bunts a month, 153 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 2: a couple bucks a month over the standard streaming subscription, 154 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: you get exclusive content or access to you know, early 155 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 2: access to concert tickets or merch you know, just some 156 00:09:55,800 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: sort of perk to incentivize the most dedicated who basic like. 157 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 2: The idea is that like these people are so passionate 158 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 2: about the artists they like that if given the opportunity 159 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: to support these artists, they will more likely than not 160 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 2: take it. And the industry is really banking on this 161 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 2: particular group because they think they haven't been fully utilized yet. 162 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: And I guess we'll see in time how effectively they 163 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: use that super fan segment to the best of the business. 164 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: And so I want to turn though to how the 165 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: slow down that you've described at the top relates to 166 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: the increasing headlines we're seeing around the label business. The 167 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: big three, particularly with regard to how the majors and 168 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: the indies are having some friction. 169 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's this particular. This month in particular has 170 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: seen a lot of friction on the label front currently, 171 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: probably the biggest, the biggest headline right now is the 172 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 2: back and forth around the UMG Downtown Music acquisition. Basically, 173 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 2: for context, UMG is I believe the biggest of the 174 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 2: Big three. They are looking to acquire Downtown Music Holdings, 175 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: which is home to a lot of vital services for 176 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: the indie music sector, both from like the individual DIY 177 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: artist label level too, you know, larger but still independent 178 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: labels and publishers and stuff. That's sort of really been 179 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: emblematic of the growing tension between those two worlds. And 180 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: granted there's always been animosity between the indies and the majors, 181 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 2: but it does seem like it is sort of being 182 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 2: aggravated recently due to the streaming slowing down, you know, 183 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: that core issue has basically led to the majors and 184 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: the leading companies in the in the music industry to 185 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 2: look for other ways to essentially dive versufy their income. 186 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 2: And also with the rise of streaming, in part due 187 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 2: to the rise of streaming, the indie market has actually 188 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 2: been really able to flourish as streaming is established in 189 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 2: these developing markets. Basically, it creates a more access to music, 190 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 2: which then in turn creates a larger ecosystem for these 191 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 2: independent publishers, distributors, labels to then operate on a global level. 192 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: In terms of this streaming slow down to some degree, 193 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: I'm surprised given the headlines I'm seeing about the flood 194 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: of AI generated music hitting consumers ears these days, how 195 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: big is the potential for this to compound the challenges 196 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: the industry is already facing. 197 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: Well, Yeah, to put it bluntly, it's a pretty significant one. 198 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 2: And it's not just from the headlines we've been seeing 199 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 2: from you know, like these fake bands or artists getting 200 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 2: thousands of listeners on Spotify and thousands of monthly, monthly followers. 201 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 2: That is certainly an issue, but it's also from like 202 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: the lesser known corners of the industry, where you know, 203 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 2: I have several friends who are full time freelance producers. 204 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 2: Their day job is creating background music for TV shows. 205 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 2: You know, the young and the restless needs an ambient 206 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 2: track for a coffee shop, they can whip up a song, 207 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 2: send it over. You know, they work with the music supervisor. 208 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 2: Now with AI, that music supervisor can say go to 209 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 2: Suno and just request give me a soft acoustic song 210 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: for a coffee shop and then there you go. So 211 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 2: basically it is coming from multiple corners. It can affect 212 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 2: the front facing artists that are having careers as artist, 213 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: but then it also will greatly impact working musicians as well, 214 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 2: like those who create background music or are songwriters or 215 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 2: just session musicians. All of that is at risk here. 216 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 2: In fact, one of the reports that I cite in 217 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: the special report basically found that the industry is set 218 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: to lose about four billion dollars from AI over the 219 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 2: next several years. So it is significant. 220 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: And do consumers who are facing this flood of music, 221 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: how are they taking to this? Are they making the 222 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: distinction with human artists? Are they just fine with it? 223 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it does seem like it is kind of a 224 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: mixed bag. I think early on there was sort of 225 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 2: a novelty to it for a while AI music. I think, 226 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 2: in at least the AI music that people were interacting 227 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: with in like a positive way, where like songs where 228 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: they took a major artist's voice and had them sing 229 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: another major artist song, or there was that fake song 230 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 2: by the Weekend in Drake a year or two ago 231 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: that gained a lot of traction. Now I think it's 232 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 2: I think just as the general public is more skeptical 233 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: of AI overall, that is also I think applied to 234 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: their view on AI music to a certain extent. I mean, 235 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 2: I can tell you again, based on like survey data, 236 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: I found that actually, like specifically asked musicians and industry 237 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 2: people and songwriters who work in the industry, like what 238 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 2: they thought is overwhelmingly skeptical negative for obvious reasons, And 239 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: it does seem like that skepticism is also applying to 240 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 2: these artists too, where you know, a lot of there's 241 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: been a lot of pushback to these to the news 242 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 2: of AR artists dominating dominating Spotify that in now people 243 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: are like worried that that is a thing they have 244 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: to potentially worry about of these DSPs putting this AI 245 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 2: generated music onto their you know, discovery playlist without them knowing. 246 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 2: And then there's sort of a skepticism that arises around that, like, 247 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 2: you know, am I listening to an AI song? How 248 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 2: can I tell? Should the DSP disclose this, so it 249 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: does you know, as with everything around AI, it raises 250 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: a lot of questions and answers. 251 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like we're in the very early stages 252 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: of something that's going to be a pretty sticky wicket 253 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: for the industry. So let's turn to a bright spot. 254 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: The publishing side of the business seems to be booming. 255 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: What's what's going on to explain the increase in royalties. 256 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so publishing has always sort of been an anchor 257 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 2: of the music industry. You know, what we're talking about 258 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: here is essentially like licensing for TV shows, for radio, 259 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: for streaming especially, and that you know, unsurprisingly has been 260 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 2: the biggest point of growth is amongst digital royalties. And 261 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 2: the simple answer is that with the rise of streaming, 262 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 2: publishing really flourish as a result. But you know, there 263 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: are some pretty some pretty important caveats to make there 264 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 2: where One part of it is also just like as 265 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 2: music has become easier than ever for the average person 266 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: to just upload to streaming services, that obviously has also 267 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: contributed to it. But at the same time, it is 268 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 2: disproportionately the majority of the royalties being generated are really 269 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 2: only going to like the top of the heap, you know, 270 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 2: like the Superstars, the Taylor Swifts of the world, as 271 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: well as like the major labels. So in reality, you 272 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 2: look at these numbers and you might think, oh, it's 273 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: better than ever to be a working musician, but the 274 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 2: you know, it's a lot more comp located to that, unfortunately, 275 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 2: in part because the royalties generated by these streaming services 276 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 2: are literally fraction of a fraction of pennies. And then 277 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 2: add to the threat of AI as I was talking 278 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: about before, and also add to the fact that certain 279 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: DSPs like Spotify and Amazon as a result of adding 280 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: you know, extra features that we were talking about earlier, 281 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 2: namely audiobooks that basically allowed them to utilize a legally 282 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 2: loophole where basically, now that they can classify their subscriptions 283 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 2: as bundles, they essentially get to pay a lower payout 284 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 2: rate to music artists and songwriters. So there are threats 285 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 2: for sure at the door here, but at least for now, 286 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 2: like this is probably the one of the few corners 287 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: of the industry that is still growing more than just 288 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 2: single digit percentages. 289 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: So and what in your report does it say about 290 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: the state of the catalog market in twenty twenty five 291 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: which had been just cruising along at a pretty feverish 292 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: clip for the past few years. 293 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the catalog business is interesting because I do 294 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 2: feel like if we were having this conversation six years ago, 295 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: the vast majority of people wouldn't know what the music 296 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: catalog business even is. But like around twenty twenty two, 297 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 2: we started seeing all of a sudden explosion of headline 298 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 2: grabbing deals, you know, both for the artists involved and 299 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 2: also the price tags they were fetching. You know, like 300 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, Justin Bieber even, they were all 301 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 2: fetching you know, one hundred million plus for their catalogs. 302 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 2: So I would say that that sort of gold rush 303 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 2: is definitely dissipated. But it's not like the market has 304 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: come down to earth either. We are still seeing some 305 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: like pretty massive deals come out of this space, chief 306 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 2: among them being the first billion dollar deal for a 307 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: single artist catalog, which was between Sony and Queen last year. 308 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: So that one is interesting because again, as a result 309 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 2: of these companies looking for ways to diversify their income, 310 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 2: this is sort of like it's all catalogs have always 311 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 2: been a surefire way, especially for legendary artists. Because oftentimes 312 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: one of the key ingredients you get with them are name, 313 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 2: image likeness rights. So if you have that plus publishing, 314 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: plus masters, even if you only have one or two 315 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 2: of the of that combination, you can utilize that to 316 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 2: basically create a brand. You know, think of like how 317 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: Bob Dylan sold his catalog a few years ago and 318 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 2: we just got an Oscar nominated Bob Dylan biopic. You know, 319 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 2: that adds value to the Bob Dylan catalog at the 320 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 2: end of the day. And they were able to do 321 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 2: that because you know, I forget who owns his name 322 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: image likeness, but the fact that they was sold off 323 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 2: meant that they could pretty much build the brand for themselves. 324 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 2: And that's what we're seeing a lot with these sort 325 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 2: of legendary artists and sort of like proven hit makers. 326 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: Speaking of proven hit makers, let's talk about the live 327 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: music business, which in your report I was surprised to 328 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: learn given the heights that this hit last year. And 329 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: this is a subject that Illuminate Intelligence in the past 330 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: has dug into the phenomenon around this market, but it 331 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: does seem to be cooling off, which is hard for 332 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: me to understand when it's like the level of you know, 333 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: you got Bruce Springsteen just finished a massive tour, Lady 334 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: Gaga launches another one. It's just such a wealth of 335 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: a listers on that market. 336 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, live music is certainly interesting where that 337 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: industry has proven to be pretty resilient to pretty much anything. 338 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: You know, there is the long held belief that music, 339 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: particularly live music, is quote unquote saying proof, with the 340 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: reasoning for that being that people love music so much 341 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 2: that they are less willing to give that up if 342 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 2: it comes to saving money versus like going to the movies, 343 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 2: for instance, And so we're sort of seeing that with 344 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 2: live music. And then also at the same time as 345 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 2: ticket prices are basically increasing higher than ever year after year, 346 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 2: that is also in part inflating what we're you know, 347 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 2: the the year end tallies that we're seeing, and up 348 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: until now they've sort of been able to get away 349 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 2: with it. That might be too strong of a word, 350 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 2: but like, at least as ticket prices increased, people were 351 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: still turning out, especially after the pandemic. People were willing 352 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 2: to pay big prices to go see the favorite artists. 353 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 2: They were willing to travel and with that incur those 354 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 2: expenses and we are still seeing that. Again, It's not 355 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 2: like it's you know, we're seeing a nose dive or 356 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 2: anything in live music, but we are seeing it flatline 357 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 2: a little bit. You know, where the past couple of 358 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 2: years was double digit growth and now we're seeing single 359 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 2: digit growth. And not only are we seeing that for revenue, 360 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 2: we are seeing that for attendance as well, which is 361 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 2: sort of the real sticking point. 362 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: And Live Nation, of course is synonymous with that market. 363 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: So how has it impacted them? 364 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Live Nation is interesting because when you 365 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 2: talk about them, you are basically talking about the live 366 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: music business. And you know they have at least in 367 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: their Q one report they started the year actually with 368 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: the revenue down from the previous Q one, but they 369 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 2: basically framed it where they focused on essentially the rest 370 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 2: of the year, where they were like, future or sales 371 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 2: for or future concerts is higher than ever, We're set 372 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 2: to have a record breaking year. That certainly might be true, 373 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 2: but that is at the end of the day. They 374 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 2: are kind of seeing what is happening in the larger 375 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 2: in the larger live music industry, where yes, revenue is 376 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 2: still high, but it is slowing down in same thing 377 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 2: with attendance and ticket sales, and then you know, when 378 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 2: you couple what is happening with them versus like the 379 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: larger changes happening like from what like Polestar was tracking, 380 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 2: where you know, for the top one hundred worldwide tours, 381 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 2: everything was actually like down by a couple percentages average 382 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 2: gross tickets sold, average tickets sold, but the two things 383 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: that increased was average ticket price and gross. So to me, 384 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 2: that signals that you know, this the gross that is 385 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 2: being created is more more and more so happening from 386 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 2: ticket price, and we were definitely seeing that happened within 387 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 2: Live Nation as well. 388 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: Well, we'd be remissing this conversation not to touch on 389 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: the artists at themselves in terms of both the top 390 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: of the food chain, the chart toppers that I would imagine, hey, 391 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: the more best selling acts that you get, the better 392 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: the health of the market. Then again, the music business 393 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: is so catalog heavy that maybe it doesn't matter much, 394 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: and then also just sort of lower down the food chain, 395 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,959 Speaker 1: what it's like for perhaps the musicians that aren't household names. 396 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean basically, like I mentioned before, for 397 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:47,959 Speaker 2: working artists. The concept of the working class musician is 398 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 2: becoming much much less of a reality for the most part. 399 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 2: And you know, as as much as this has been 400 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 2: like a particularly you know, particularly strong topic for me personally, 401 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 2: or one that I feel is strongly about, there unfortunately 402 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: isn't a whole lot of data for it, at least 403 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 2: when it comes to the US. But what we do 404 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 2: have shows that, at least like from anecdotally and stuff 405 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 2: like you hear about musicians like needing to even successful 406 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 2: ones or quote unquote successful ones within like the indie space, 407 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 2: we'll still need to maintain day jobs or you know, 408 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 2: find other more stable sources of income. Earlier this year 409 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: we saw Chapel Roan on the Grammy stage while accepting 410 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: an award advocate for greater access to healthcare services and 411 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 2: mental health services for artists. So like, we are seeing 412 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 2: that happen. And the one, you know, one of the 413 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 2: sources we do have for data, which I was very 414 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 2: happy to find, was actually a music census, a musician 415 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 2: census done in Nashville, which probably next to New York 416 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,959 Speaker 2: and LA maybe even more so, is has the highest 417 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 2: concentration of working musicians in the US. And you know, 418 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 2: from there we were able to get at least a glimpse, 419 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 2: like they offered a case study of what it could 420 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 2: be of what you know, the musician experience is in 421 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 2: the US, and for the most part, they averaged around 422 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 2: fifty two K per year from music, most of which 423 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 2: came from live shows rather than recordings. But you know, again, 424 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: a lot of the main concerns was access to healthcare 425 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 2: and rent, and you know that is also the same 426 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 2: in the UK. It's a very similar story. 427 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: Well, I don't want to forget the other half of 428 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: the equation, which is the artist at the top of 429 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: the charts, the Morgan Wallens of the world, the Kendrick 430 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: Lamars of the world. Are they bigger than ever? And 431 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 1: you mentioned Chapel Rome earlier. Is she an example of 432 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: there's still a rising tide of new artists joining those 433 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: top ranks. 434 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, certainly, Like these artists are doing incredibly well. 435 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 2: And it's it's sort of that it's like the ones 436 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 2: that make it are still able to really make it. 437 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: You know, Morgan Wallen, even though like his listenership is 438 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: overwhelmingly in the US, like, he's still able to embark 439 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 2: on highly successful global tours. What's interesting that with that too, though, 440 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: is that sort of as a result of these developing 441 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 2: markets adopting streaming and usership growing in you know, other 442 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 2: parts of the world. Along with like the big artists 443 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 2: obviously being listened to there, we are also seeing what 444 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 2: sort of become known as like localization, where it's like 445 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 2: these markets will adopt streaming, but then they will continue 446 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 2: to listen to their local artists and sort of like 447 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 2: as a result of that, these artists then get access 448 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 2: to the global stage, as it were, a lot more 449 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 2: so than they were before, in part thanks to like 450 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 2: streaming algorithms picking them up and stuff. So that's sort 451 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 2: of like why what we've seen, you know, the rise 452 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 2: of K pop or the rise of Latin music, or 453 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 2: even the rise of country music outside of the US, 454 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: Like that's all part of it. But again, at the 455 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 2: same time, just given the amount of people that now 456 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 2: can upload music and you know, create build platforms online 457 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 2: thanks to streaming, it's sort of a double edged sword. 458 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 2: Like the ones who can break through the noise are 459 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 2: able to potentially find a lot of success, but then 460 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 2: everyone else kind of has to fight a lot harder, 461 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:56,719 Speaker 2: especially as like you know, platforms like Spotify have now 462 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 2: instituted policies where it's like unless basically artists that don't 463 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 2: make x amount of streams per month they don't get paid, 464 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: which you know, on one hand, you can make the 465 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 2: argument that it's like that allows the royalties to be 466 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 2: better distributed for the artists that do have established careers, 467 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 2: and that is certainly good. But at the same time, 468 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: it does make people that are trying to you know, 469 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 2: float to the surface more. It just makes it a 470 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 2: lot harder than it already was. 471 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: Well, we're touching on some trends here that make clear 472 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty five, as you put it in this report, 473 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: is clearly a pivotal year. There's a lot to monitor 474 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: going forward, and so can't recommend enough people check out 475 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: the report Rob just authored, available on the Illuminate Data 476 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: dot com website on the state of the music industry. Rob, 477 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: thanks for coming in and giving us a taste of 478 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: what you wrote about. 479 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: Of course, thanks so much for having me. 480 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. Leave us a review at Apple Podcasts 481 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 3: or Amazon Music. We love to hear from listeners. Please 482 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 3: go to Variety dot com and sign up for the 483 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 3: free weekly strictly business newsletter, and don't forget to Tune 484 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 3: in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.