1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to stuff 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: when never told you a prediction, I heard you, And 3 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: today we are bringing back an episode we did Bridget, 4 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: which we always love bringing back. Sometimes it's tricky because 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: she always does such timely stuff, but it's always still 6 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: relevant in a way that is both upsetting and sometimes like, 7 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: oh we still need to be talking about this. But 8 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: as we're moving into Pride months, I thought we would 9 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: bring back this one about Lynn Conway and all of 10 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: the contributions that lin Kwanway had to the tech to 11 00:00:51,360 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: the tech environment that almost got erased. So yeah, please enjoy. Hey, 12 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stefan Never 13 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: Told You production of iHeartRadio. And today we are thrilled 14 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: to once again be joined by the fabulous Bridget Todd 15 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: coworker and friend. Yes, first recording session of the new year. 16 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 2: Oh that's right, happy, first recording of twenty twenty two. 17 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 3: Yes, how how is your your weirdo? Christmas? How is 18 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 3: your new year? Bridget? 19 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 4: Weirdo? Christmas? Was super fun? Thank you for asking. 20 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 2: It involved all the staples I hoped it had drunkenness, 21 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 2: crazy outfits, Yes, fire pits, dancing, but then sadly, right 22 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: after that, I got COVID. Oh Dan, I know, I 23 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: am recovering from COVID, which it was not how I 24 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 2: plan to spend the latter part of the holiday. So 25 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: my New Year's was just really spent sweating and moaning, 26 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 2: not for any kind of fun. 27 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 4: Reason, because I was in discomfort. 28 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 5: That turns so quickly, Wow, well, I'm glad you're okay. 29 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 6: How are you feeling today? 30 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 4: Much better? 31 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I unfortunately I got COVID before I was 32 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 2: able to be boosted. 33 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 4: And so if. 34 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 2: Anyone is listening and they are like, I'll take in 35 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: their sweet time to get their booster shot, don't do that. 36 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 2: My partner also got COVID, and he is he was 37 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: boosted and recovered so much quicker than me. 38 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 4: So I'm feeling a lot better, but. 39 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 2: It really does linger, like don't let anybody tell you 40 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 2: that omicron is like, oh, it's very mild, Like that 41 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 2: might mean you don't need to go to the hospital, 42 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 2: but it definitely like lingers and you feel like garbage 43 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 2: for quite. 44 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 5: A while, right, I mean, that's the report I've been hearing, 45 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 5: is like everybody's saying it was a mild case, but 46 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,399 Speaker 5: that doesn't necessarily mean you're not affected or asymptomatic. Literally, 47 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,839 Speaker 5: you're just not at the hospital and you may have 48 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 5: the one hundred and four fever all the problems, and 49 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 5: it may last longer than the flu. But yeah, it 50 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 5: sounds like being boosted is the way to go. 51 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 4: So sorry, Bridget, Yeah, it's okay. 52 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: I mean it could have been a lot worse, and 53 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: I'm happy to be on the men. But yeah, it 54 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 2: was a good excuse to stay in bed and watch 55 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 2: a binge watch shows. 56 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 4: So I was talk you about that nice. 57 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it's funny because Samantha and I it was 58 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: like right before almicron, like we you know, heard about it, 59 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: but it was before everyone was like, oh my god, 60 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: it's everywhere. We went to the movies and we saw 61 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: The Matrix and Spider Man. 62 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 3: We did Double Feature. 63 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: And I after that the news came out everyone had amochron, 64 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: and I was convinced I had it, even though I 65 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: had no proof, like there was no symptoms or anything. 66 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: But I essentially stayed in on New Year's as if 67 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: I have COVID, I'm not going anywhere. 68 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: I'm gonna see anybody. And it was actually very lovely. 69 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 5: It was nice, right, I mean to the point that 70 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 5: I think for introverts like myself is now just like okay, 71 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 5: well I might have COVID, so I can't I can't 72 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 5: go so sorry, I. 73 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 4: Might have it. 74 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 2: I don't know, such a good, ready made excuse, like 75 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 2: I might have COVID. 76 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,799 Speaker 4: I'm worried about COVID. Thinking about COVID, like it's. 77 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 2: Such a good excuse to not have to do things 78 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: you don't really want to do. 79 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm like, this is how I live in my 80 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 5: comfy forever. I keep mentioning comfies and I know they 81 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 5: are not a sponsor. They need to be a sponsor 82 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 5: at this point because I'm always cold, and I'm looking 83 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 5: at you, Bridget, because you're actually in sleeveless and I'm like, 84 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 5: oh my god, and it's sunny where you're sitting as 85 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 5: where we are in the darkness and depths of despair, apparently. 86 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 6: In my comfy. 87 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 5: But I'm like, wow, this is a drastic difference between 88 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 5: us and you. 89 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 2: So I am like the other side of the coin, 90 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: which is that I live in an old apartment and 91 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 2: we have old school like radiator heat that we're not 92 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 2: really able to control right, uncomfortably warm in the window 93 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: open even though there is snow on the ground. 94 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is very, very different. 95 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: We got like a hint of snow in Atlanta and. 96 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: Cranking up my radiator. 97 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: I also have a radiator that I it's tricky to control, 98 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: but I think I got it figured out. You open 99 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: the one in the bathroom halfway and you're gonna be fined. 100 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 101 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 4: Everybody who has radiator heet like you have. 102 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: You have like a weird mechanism of like you gotta 103 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 2: do this, gotta do that, a window like it's it's 104 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 2: a delicate art. 105 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. 106 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: When I first moved in here, I was like, I 107 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: asked my landlord what is that? 108 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 3: And he looked at me. He said, it's a radiator. 109 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 3: You're gonna have to figure that out. Like oh okay, 110 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 3: oh yes, well okay. 111 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: Now that we've checked in Bridget, I am so excited 112 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: with the topic you bought today because I didn't know 113 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: this story and it's an amazing story. So can you 114 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: tell us what we're going to be talking about today? 115 00:05:58,880 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 4: Yes, I'm so excited. 116 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: You know one of my favorite things in the world 117 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 2: that's really talking about overlooked figures in history. The history 118 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 2: of technology and the Internet, of which there are many, 119 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 2: and I feel like they can really tell us a 120 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 2: lot about how our identities often determined who gets remembered 121 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 2: and who gets overlooked, even when someone is responsible for 122 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: pretty much changing the world, like the person that we're 123 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: going to be discussing today, Lynn Conway. Linn Conway is 124 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: an amazing historical figure. She's still alive, but she essentially 125 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: changed the world. She is the reason why we have 126 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 2: things like personal computers, smartphones, tablets, iPads, all of that, 127 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: and yet her story almost went overlooked because of transphobia. 128 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And it is quite the story and quite 129 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: the journey and still still alive today, So that's awesome. 130 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: Still making changes also awesome. But can we get into 131 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 1: some of the early history here? 132 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 4: Yes, so, Linn. 133 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 2: She was born in nineteen thirty eight and was assigned 134 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: mail at birth, but from an early age she knew 135 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 2: there was more to her story as it pertained to 136 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 2: her gender. Her mom was studying anthropology at Columbia, and 137 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: she would flip through her mom's school textbooks sort of 138 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: looking for any kind of answers or perspectives that spoke 139 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: to how she knew she was feeling. And there's a 140 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 2: really lovely profile of Lynn Conway in Michigan Engineering News, 141 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: so definitely check that out. But in that profile, she says, 142 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: it seemed like people in other cultures had found different 143 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: ways to. 144 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 4: Deal with what I knew I was feeling. But then 145 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 4: that became scrambled. 146 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: But the thought that what I was feeling was that 147 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: I was gay, but no one ever talked about these things. 148 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: When Conway was fourteen, she read a news story about 149 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: the former Army private Christine Jorgensen, who was the first 150 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 2: person in the United States to publicly announce a gender transition, 151 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: and that really changed everything for Lynn Conway. 152 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 4: She said, from reading that story, she knew what she. 153 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: Needed to do, Like she realized, like, I am going 154 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: through the same thing, and this is what I want 155 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: to do, And it really set her out on this 156 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 2: journey to discover her identity. 157 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 3: Right. 158 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 5: Wow, I really couldn't imagine in that day and time 159 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 5: being in that place like its difficult as it is 160 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 5: today in twenty twenty two. 161 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 6: Oh my god, I just said, the year. 162 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 5: Twenty twenty two of being a part of the queer 163 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 5: community in general, even no matter what I just you know, 164 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 5: not to put too much of my personal life out there. 165 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 5: I just had a big discussion with my parents about 166 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 5: acceptance of the queer community point blank, not not anything 167 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 5: outside of not me coming out, just what it was. 168 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 5: And it was a little bit combative from my parents, 169 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 5: that just them trying to accept the queer community in 170 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 5: general and talking about what that is in relation to 171 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 5: their conservative ideas. So I can't imagine if those are 172 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 5: the hard conversations we're having today, I can't imagine what 173 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 5: it would have been like back then. So what was 174 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 5: her coming of age story like or what was it 175 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 5: that we need to know about because I can't again, 176 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 5: like my heart just like it is pounding the idea 177 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 5: of what she went through. 178 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's that's such a good point. 179 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 2: And when I was putting together this outline of her 180 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: of her life, that was something that I kept getting 181 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: struck by the ways in which we have come so 182 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 2: far as a society in terms of accepting but also 183 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 2: the ways in which we have a lot further to 184 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: go as in terms of sort of accepting and supporting 185 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 2: folks who are on a journey right and so Conway 186 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: initially tried to transition while she was studying MIT in 187 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 2: the fifties, and so she basically started taking hormones that 188 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:30,719 Speaker 2: she had procured. 189 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 4: On her own. 190 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: And then she talked to a friend who was in 191 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 2: medical school to see if you could help her connect 192 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: to a doctor who might be able to help her, 193 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: and this friend ended up taking her to a dean 194 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 2: at the college, and that dean told her that she 195 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: did not stop taking these hormones on her own, that 196 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 2: she would end up at a mental institution. And this 197 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: fear of being institutionalized and also arrested is something that 198 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 2: really marked Lynn Conway's life, you know back then. You know, 199 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 2: if you were if you were to you know, transition 200 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: or come out as trends in a lot of places, 201 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 2: you could just be outright arrested. But also the threat 202 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 2: of being institutionalized in a mental institution, and you know, 203 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: it's again, it's one of those things that it makes 204 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: me so sad that even today there are people that 205 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 2: equate being trans with being mentally ill or being a criminal. 206 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: Like it's one of those things that obviously it was 207 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 2: so salient to Lynn Conway back in the fifties, but 208 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 2: it's not like we've unfortunately, it's not like we have 209 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: completely moved beyond that, because there are certainly still people 210 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: out there today who believe, oh, if you're trans, you 211 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 2: belong in prison, you belong in an institution. 212 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 4: You know, you're not quote unquote normal. 213 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: And yeah, it is one of those ways that makes me, 214 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 2: on the one hand, marvel at how far we've come, 215 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 2: but also lament that we have so much. 216 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 4: Further to go. 217 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure. 218 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: I mean, just all of the laws we've seen pass, 219 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: the anti trans laws, it's just ongoing, and it's this 220 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: constant onslaught and you know, it's targeting in a lot 221 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: of cases young young children, like people in schools, and 222 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: it's so damaging and so toxic. And I can imagine 223 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: for Conway this that fear and being told by the 224 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:22,479 Speaker 1: Dean like this was a legitimate fear was a huge setback. 225 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 4: Oh absolutely. 226 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: I mean Lynn Knaway talks about her time at MIT 227 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 2: as like fairly traumatic after this really disappointing turn of 228 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: events when she was trying to transition. Initially, she kind 229 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: of just put transitioning at the back of her mind. 230 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 2: She got married, she became a parent, she started working 231 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 2: at IBM. At this time in Lynn's life, she from 232 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: the outside seemed to kind of have a picture of 233 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 2: perfect life. She was making major moves and innovations at IBM, 234 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 2: which at the time was the seventh largest corporation in 235 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: the whole world. And while she was working at IBM, 236 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 2: by all accounts, she was kicking ass. You know, she 237 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 2: invented a hardware protocol that enabled the out of order 238 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 2: command processing most computers still rely on today. But all 239 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: of this, all of this, these accomplishments, and all of 240 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: this like fantastic domestic life that she that she seemed 241 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 2: to be living, was put into jeopardy because of transphobia, 242 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 2: and that transphobia would really alter the trajectory of her life. 243 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 5: I can't imagine a person who has that much stress 244 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 5: in their lives and that much conflict being able to, like, 245 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 5: what would she have really accomplished if she was able 246 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 5: to be fully accepted as who she was at that 247 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 5: point in time. And you know, and the other thought is, 248 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 5: like her friend really betrayed her. I can't imagine tried 249 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 5: ever coming out again, or even questioning again, or even 250 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 5: saying anything out loud because the person that she trusted 251 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 5: literally ranted her out in order to have this agenda 252 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 5: pushed against her, saying, nah, you better stay in the 253 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 5: norm aka what we think is normal, or you are 254 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 5: going to be criminalized essentially for who you are. And 255 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 5: I'm just like, ah, everything, Uh. 256 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, That's something that I think about a lot when 257 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 2: it comes to things like transphobia. You know how much 258 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 2: brilliance does the world miss out on because of transphobia? 259 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: Glenn Conway accomplished a lot, but could she accomplish so 260 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: much more if she wasn't putting up with this? And 261 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: so I think about trans folks today, you know, the 262 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: kinds of like ridiculous legislation that they have to spend 263 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 2: their time combating, the kinds of ridiculous myths and stereotypes 264 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 2: and misinformation about who they are and their identities. If 265 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 2: they didn't have to spend their time countering that kind 266 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 2: of nonsense, what could they be accomplishing? And so I 267 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 2: always wonder, not only is it completely unfair unacceptable that 268 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 2: trans folks have to put up with that, but we 269 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 2: all miss out, like we all miss out on contributions 270 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: that can make our lives better or we're interesting or 271 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 2: more creative. When marginalized people are saddled with these kinds 272 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: of you know, this kind of nonsense like an onslaught 273 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 2: of laws and misinformation about who they. 274 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: Are, right, Yeah, I feel like that we talk about 275 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: that a lot on here and all the things that, 276 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, the stories that aren't even being told, and 277 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: then that impacts what people think or who people think 278 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: are doing in technology or stinfield in general, who are 279 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: making these these big moves and you know, still using 280 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: this technology. 281 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 3: That's we don't know. We don't know about her and. 282 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: Conway, even though she kind of put this transitioning on 283 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: the back burner and never really left her mind, right. 284 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 4: That's right. 285 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 2: So eventually she learned about the pioneering gender transition work 286 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: of doctor Harry Benjamin. He was a famous indochronologist and 287 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: sexologist who was really known for his clinical work with 288 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: trans folks. And she decided, I want to work with 289 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 2: this doctor. This is the doctor who is going to 290 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: help me. And this is something that I find so heartbreaking. 291 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: That was in that Michigan engineering profile I mentioned earlier. 292 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 4: It sounds like Conway and her then. 293 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 2: Spouse had really worked out like a solid plan of 294 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 2: the logistics of how this transition was going to work 295 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 2: for their family. They decided they were going to get 296 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 2: a divorce, and that Conway would start working with doctor 297 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: Benjamin to transition, and that she was going to pay 298 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: child support from this IBM salary that she'd had, and 299 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: they decided that she was going to stay in the 300 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: lives of their children and that the children would call 301 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: her aunt, right, And so it sounds like as a 302 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 2: family unit, they had really ironed out how. 303 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 4: This was going to work. 304 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: And according to another really compelling piece I read in 305 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: Forbes by Jeremy Alessandre, Conway's immediate family and IBM, like 306 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: her coworkers of IBM were actually pretty accepting and supportive 307 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 2: of her desire to transition at first, like even know 308 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: this was you know, the fifties, the sixties, Like they 309 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 2: were kind of okay with that, and my, we're supporting 310 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 2: this choice. However, when IBM's corporate medical director learned that 311 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: Conwy was planning to transition in nineteen sixty eight, he 312 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: told CEO Thomas J. Watson Junior, who fired Conway to 313 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 2: avoid the public embarrassment of employing a trans woman, and 314 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 2: so all of this work that Conway had done with 315 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 2: her then spouse to iron out the logistics of how 316 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: this was going to work, you know, was basically pulled 317 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: from under her. And this really like it sounds like 318 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: this was like a completely destabilizing thing in her life. 319 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 6: Oh god, I mean yeah, absolutely. 320 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 5: If you think you have a plan and you're excited 321 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 5: about at least having forward steps and then having something 322 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 5: that is so traumatic that once again is portraying you 323 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 5: essentially something that you were so excited about and not 324 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 5: even excited about just trying to live your life as. 325 00:16:58,040 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 6: You truly are. 326 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 5: I can't imagine how this would have just deflated you. 327 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 5: I've been without a job, I've been fired, and that 328 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 5: sense of self is gone and self worth feels like 329 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 5: it's just a loss of yourself. So someone who can't 330 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 5: even express themselves losing even more of themselves. Holy crap. 331 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 5: And I can't on top of that like this again, y'all. 332 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 5: My Christmas was a doozy. But this again kind of 333 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 5: goes back to my conversation with my parents. Are like, 334 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 5: this is why these laws are important, This is why 335 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 5: anti discrimination laws need to be in place. And when 336 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 5: we talk about tugging at the strings, which is what 337 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 5: is happening under the Supreme Court, which is what we're 338 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 5: talking about every day, still these are things like this 339 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 5: can happen, and it truly I can't imagine what the 340 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 5: impact was for her to be fired during the middle 341 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 5: of a thing that she thought she could maybe finally 342 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 5: find herself. 343 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so sad. 344 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 2: It really seems like it started like a downward spiral 345 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: in her life. You know, she had to divorce her 346 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: else while losing her sole source of income, which you know, obviously, 347 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 2: as you just described, like makes it that much more 348 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 2: difficult when you your source of income is gone, your 349 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 2: identity that was attached to having this like pretty big 350 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 2: deal job being not just being taken from you in 351 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: this way, but like your contributions. You know, she was 352 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 2: someone who kicked ass, who really made a lot of contributions, 353 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 2: and being fired like this like meeting those contributions and 354 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: all of that work just sort of going overlooked because 355 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,959 Speaker 2: of transphobia. And so it really sounds like this like 356 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: was a really dark time for her. The California Social 357 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: Services tried to keep her away from her kids, and 358 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: Conway's then expouse decided that she could not have any 359 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: contact with them because she was worried that if Conway 360 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: was in her kid's life that they would be taken 361 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 2: by the state. And at the time her kids were 362 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 2: just babies. They were two and four years old, And 363 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 2: this sounds like something that really stuck with Conway. In 364 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: this profile, she recalls that tore me up. Let me 365 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: tell you, the hardest part about the whole thing was 366 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 2: that I really felt. 367 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 4: Like a mom to them. 368 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 2: And again, just what a domino effect, A negative domino effect, 369 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 2: being fired for being trans caused in her life, losing 370 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 2: her income, losing that identity, breaking up her family, and 371 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: she you know, she knew this was going to be 372 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 2: a really tough process, and she relied on her lessons 373 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,719 Speaker 2: that she had learned from this lifetime love of outdoor 374 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 2: adventures like canoeing and rock climbing to steady herself. She 375 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 2: described it, Now, I had a plan to get across 376 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 2: the river, she said. I could see the steps I 377 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 2: had to make. I could see the dangers and how 378 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: to protect against them. The only problem was I didn't 379 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 2: know where I'd end up on the other side. 380 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 4: So even though this. 381 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 2: Had cost her her job, her family, her domestic life, 382 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 2: she still continued to work with doctor Benjamin to transition right. 383 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:50,719 Speaker 1: And there were so many as that quote described challenges 384 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: and obstacles beyond what. 385 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 3: We've already talked about. 386 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:59,479 Speaker 1: Which is already a lot so so much so, can 387 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: you talk about some of the challenges that were that 388 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: Conway faced around this transition? 389 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 2: Absolutely so, as a lot of trans folks will probably 390 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: tell you some of the logistics around transition, you know, 391 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 2: things like changing your name, getting new identification and paperwork 392 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 2: is going to be a big part of navigating trans 393 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 2: identity so that you can work and earn an income 394 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 2: and have a bank account and get a place to live. 395 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 4: Even today, this process. 396 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 2: Is really complicated and sometimes like prohibitively expensive, and again 397 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 2: I'm sad to say that not a lot you know, 398 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: was hard back then, and unfortunately it's hard today. Unfortunately 399 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 2: a lot of trans folks don't have the support or 400 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 2: resources they need to navigate it. According to the National 401 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 2: Transgender Discrimination Survey, only one fifth of trans people who 402 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 2: have transitioned have been able to update all of their 403 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: IDs and records with their new gender, and one third 404 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 2: have not been able to update any of their IDs 405 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 2: or records. Luckily, for Conway, she was able to use 406 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 2: connections that doctor Benjamin had in Oakland, California to get 407 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 2: it done quickly, which, as you might imagine, was really 408 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 2: really important to avoid suspicion back then, because you know, 409 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 2: it could easily turn unsafe if somebody suspected, you know, 410 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 2: that you were transitioning or that you were trans and 411 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 2: so being able to navigate this quickly was of the 412 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: utmost importance for her. She has this quote, she says, 413 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 2: you were an undocumented alien from Mars. 414 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 4: You don't have a birth certificate. How are you going 415 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 4: to get a job? This was the sixties. 416 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 2: You can think of it like being a spy in 417 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: a foreign country. If you were found out, you'd be 418 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: dealt with immediately, if not by the police, then by 419 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 2: people on the streets. And so it's probably clear that 420 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: why after actually going through this transition, Conway started the 421 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 2: period of her life which she refers to as her 422 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 2: the stealth phase of her career. 423 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 5: Okay, so this entire thing feels like it should be 424 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 5: a giant movie, right, It should be a feature movie somehow, 425 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 5: whether it's like coming of age and or just overall like, yeah, 426 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 5: it could be like a spy movie in the industry, 427 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 5: but it's not not. 428 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 6: I'm just saying that from her quote in itself. 429 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 5: But it's an amazing account of all of the things 430 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 5: that she has gone through. I feel like, hello, actors, 431 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 5: this is an Oscar level of performers if you can 432 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 5: get it, and it should be done by a trainswoman obviously. 433 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 4: Yes, could you talk about it and watch this? 434 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 5: I want to see this. Can you talk about this 435 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 5: stealth based? Because yeah, I'm really into the movie now. 436 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 4: Yes. 437 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 2: So in nineteen sixty nine, Conway changed her name, hit 438 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: her gender identity, and started looking for work and computing. Eventually, 439 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 2: she found a job as a contract programmer, which is 440 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 2: like pretty entry level, but because she is like a 441 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 2: bad ass, she pretty quickly moved up. She later worked 442 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 2: at MEMORYS and then landed what I'm calling. 443 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 4: The big account. 444 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 2: You know in movies when someone's like, oh he got 445 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 2: the big account, Like this was Conway's like her big 446 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 2: account working at Xerox's Palo Alto research center, which is 447 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 2: a huge, huge deal. And again, because she is a badass, 448 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 2: she immediately started like kicking ass, just like she had 449 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 2: before at IBM before getting fired. 450 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 6: Is that a Silicon city? In making that up? Is 451 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 6: that the beginning is that. 452 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: I think that's like that, like the Silicon Valley area. Yeah, 453 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 2: Like that was like where so many of the technological 454 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 2: innovations that like we still have today that really shaped 455 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 2: like where computers and technology and smartphones ended up going. 456 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 2: So much of that research happened right there. So like 457 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 2: the big account. 458 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 5: So she literally was at the beginning of what is 459 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 5: known as one of the biggest technological industrial times of 460 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 5: our age. Wow. 461 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, And again like that alone, even if 462 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 2: like like I find her story so fascinating and inspiring, 463 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 2: but like that alone is a huge deal, right, Like 464 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 2: we haven't even gotten into some of the other parts 465 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 2: of her life, But that alone, being a trans woman 466 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 2: at the forefront and the preceidice of all of these 467 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: things that would go on to revolutionize all of our 468 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 2: lives is so. 469 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 4: Interesting to me. Like that alone would be a huge accomplishment. 470 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: Yes, and speaking of there were many other accomplishments that 471 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: she was taking part in during this time, right. 472 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 4: That's right. 473 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 2: So I have to give a little bit of a 474 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: caveat that, Like, I am not an engineer, so engineers 475 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: who are listening don't come after me if I say 476 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 2: the wrong thing. I'm summarizing. I am a non hard 477 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 2: tech person summarizing someone who was like one of the 478 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: most brilliant tech. 479 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 3: Minds on the planet. 480 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 4: Give me some just know that. 481 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 3: Yeh. 482 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 2: So her work completely revolutionized how microchips were designed, and 483 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 2: she sometimes called the Hidden Hands, like that's her nickname 484 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: for this work and how it led to the tech 485 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 2: revolution in the eighties and nineties, and again it's like 486 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 2: a big part of the reason why we have smartphones 487 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: and personal computers. But even while she was accomplishing all 488 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 2: of these important innovations, she really couldn't own them because 489 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 2: of her identity. Again, she says that she was working 490 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 2: in sort of stealth mode where she was just kind 491 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 2: of purposely staying behind the scenes despite creating these innovations 492 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 2: that would literally go on to change the world. And 493 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 2: during this time, her trans identity was not public knowledge. 494 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 2: She only told close friends or like hr people or 495 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 2: people who were needed to like do her security clearance, 496 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 2: and she purposely made herself scarce and stayed behind the scenes, 497 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 2: you know, hence the nickname the Hidden Hand. But that 498 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: meant all of her accomplishments and innovations they also stayed 499 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 2: behind the scenes too. And you know, it's one of 500 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: those things where this is not like you know, people 501 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: are like, oh, women's history is all of our history, 502 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 2: or black history is all of our history, or trans 503 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:25,959 Speaker 2: history is all of our history. 504 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 4: This is you know, everybody uses a computer. 505 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 2: Or a smartphone for the most part, and like, transphobia 506 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 2: almost kept us from having a full accounting of this 507 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 2: history that shaped all of our lives, right, like Lynn 508 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 2: Conway touched like her work touched all of us, and 509 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: we almost did not get a full accounting of it 510 00:25:44,440 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 2: because of the harmful legacy of transphobia and transphobic systems. O. 511 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 5: Wait, can we first say that The Hidden Hand is 512 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 5: the title of the movie? 513 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 1: Right? 514 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 3: That's right? 515 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 4: If there are any like movie like The Hidden Hand? 516 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 5: Perfect Maybe I've been watching Way to Meet martial arts film, 517 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 5: but I'm like, wait, wait, wait, this is like Asian 518 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 5: level of martial arts stealth movie. I don't know what's happening, 519 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 5: but I'm seeing it. Maybe just needs to be transformed 520 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 5: into that. I don't know, but yeah, I hate that. 521 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 5: This is once again, when we talk about women in history, 522 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 5: especially women in marginalized communities, how they literally have to 523 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,239 Speaker 5: shrink in order to accomplish what they have to do 524 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 5: quote unquote to live what they need to do and 525 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 5: be who they need to be, to shrink and disappear 526 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 5: into the background so they don't make. 527 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 6: Too much noise. 528 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 5: And that is what has been taught for so long, 529 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 5: and this is one of the prime examples for so many, 530 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 5: especially again within the queer community. Yeah, within like women 531 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 5: in colors, especially black women, being told, yeah, you can 532 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 5: do it, but you don't be loud about it, because 533 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 5: then you're just going to cost too much of a 534 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 5: ruckus and your personal life. 535 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 6: You just being you will be a distraction. 536 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 5: And I'm enraged right now just thinking about it as 537 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,959 Speaker 5: I continue on, because this is such a pattern with 538 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 5: our society and the misogynistic idea overall, that this is 539 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 5: how it should have been, and this is how everybody 540 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 5: accepted it and was okay with it. And I'm reading 541 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 5: all the things that you put in here, and I'm like, wow, wow, wow, Like, 542 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 5: how how. 543 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 6: Do you keep going? 544 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 5: How do you continue to persevere and create these amazing 545 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 5: things when there's so much against you, when you're being 546 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 5: continually told don't exist point blank. 547 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's enraging. And it's like, you know, 548 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 2: you were talking about these conversations you were having over 549 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 2: the holidays with your family. I think for a lot 550 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 2: of people it's exactly what you said. It's I don't 551 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 2: hate queer people, I don't hate trans people. I just 552 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 2: don't want to. I don't want to think I have 553 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 2: to think about them. I don't want them to take 554 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: up too much space, like this idea that you know. 555 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 2: I remember having similar conversations with my family where they 556 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 2: would be like, well, I just don't want to shove 557 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: them my face, and it's like, no one's shoving it 558 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 2: in like like for for some people, just existing is 559 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: shoving it in your face, right, just like taking up 560 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: space and being yourself is equated with, like quote, shoving. 561 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 4: It in someone's face. And so I agree. 562 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 2: I think that it's such a pattern where women, queer folks, 563 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 2: trans folks, black folks, folks of color. 564 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 4: The only way that we're told that we. 565 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: Can safely exist is if we shrink ourselves and sort 566 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: of try to disappear and try to stay off the radar. 567 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 2: And it breaks my heart that that's what Lynn Conway 568 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 2: had to do. But again, what could we what kind 569 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 2: of world could we live in if all these folks 570 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 2: didn't feel like that's what they had to do. 571 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 5: Just to exist, right, I mean literally to be able 572 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 5: to say I'm here and this is who I am 573 00:28:58,840 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 5: in the story. 574 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 6: And she's not asking for recognition. She never was. She 575 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 6: just wanted to be. 576 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 5: And I think that's where I want to throw things, 577 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 5: throw things at lots of people, especially obviously the people 578 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 5: who are ignorant and are continued to spread these types 579 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 5: of hate and this type of environment, saying that the 580 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 5: only way that we are happy is if my norm 581 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 5: from way back when, which is steeped in misogyny, steeped 582 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 5: in patriarchy, steeped in racism, that if this exists, not okay, 583 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 5: as long as you don't, you don't exist in my 584 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 5: world and I don't have to think about you. 585 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 6: And that's just a whole other level. 586 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 5: But you know what, if this is the movie, I 587 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 5: feel like this is the arc where she becomes triumphant. 588 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, yeah, So this is where I think it 589 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 4: gets so interesting. 590 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 2: So basically, Conway had made all of these big contributions, 591 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: not just during her time at x RATS, but also 592 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: going back to nineteen sixty eight when she was still 593 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 2: at IBM. And you know, at this point, none of 594 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: these contributions were really attributed to her. In nineteen ninety nine, 595 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: a computer historian began investigating her early innovations at IBM, 596 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 2: which tipped her off that other people had been taking credit, 597 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 2: or had been like kind of sort of low key 598 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 2: taking credit for the work at IBM that she had 599 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 2: done under a different name. She wanted to correct the record, 600 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: but in order to do so, she knew that she 601 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: would need to open up about her identity and explain 602 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 2: why somebody with a different name had made all of 603 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 2: these big contributions and accomplishments that she was saying actually 604 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 2: belonged to her. And so she ended up telling this 605 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 2: computer historian and then quietly added a quote gender transition 606 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 2: section to her own website. And this small, quiet decision 607 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 2: is what really sparked the next chapter of her life, 608 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 2: as this you know, outspoken advocate for trans writes and 609 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: what an interesting conundrum that would be to say, like, well, 610 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 2: I want to correct the record. I want people to 611 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: know that this was me that I did this work. 612 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 2: But in order to do that, I really have to, 613 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: you know, oh, open up about my identity in a 614 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 2: way that I haven't really. 615 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 4: Been so comfortable with before. 616 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 2: And so how interesting it is that that personal choice, 617 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 2: and that personal, you know, conundrum for Linn Conway would 618 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 2: go on to broaden all of our understanding of our 619 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 2: world and all of our understanding of like why we 620 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 2: have the technology that we do and who is responsible 621 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 2: for it. And so I just always thought that was 622 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 2: an interesting way that like this personal dilemma for Conway 623 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 2: had these massive global implications for all of us and 624 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 2: our understanding of technology and the internet and history. 625 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 4: Right. 626 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one of those things where for for some 627 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: people that would be such a like minor thing, but 628 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,959 Speaker 1: to that's huge to have to make that decision and 629 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: to also like weigh the implications of your personal life 630 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: on something that, again, for a lot of people might 631 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: be pretty minor. But this is changes Lynn Conway's life, 632 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,959 Speaker 1: and it changes all of ours and all all of 633 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: the understanding and information we have about things we do 634 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: use all of the time and who's behind those and 635 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: who's responsible for those, And yeah, it's not an easy 636 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: thing to do at all. But also, yeah, this really 637 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: led her down this path of advocating for trans rights. 638 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: Right absolutely, So, the list of all the different ways 639 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 2: that she became this outspoken advocate for trans rights, it's very, 640 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 2: very long, She's given support and assistance to many trans 641 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 2: women who were going through transition, and she was an 642 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 2: advocate for employment protections for trans folks and then also 643 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: just a general advocate for trans folks in technology. One 644 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: of my favorite things about her that she has done 645 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: is that in twenty thirteen, Conway and Leandra Vicki of 646 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 2: the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill successively lobbied the 647 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 2: Board of Directors of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, 648 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 2: which is essentially a code of ethics pertaining to the 649 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,959 Speaker 2: engineering profession to include trans identity, which impacts you know, 650 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 2: the largest engineering professional society today. And so that's going 651 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 2: to have like global, far reaching impacts to make that 652 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 2: trans inclusive. And so that was work that she was 653 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 2: able to do because she had become this like outspoken 654 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 2: advocate for trans rights. And then like, yeah, just you know, 655 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: I'm so happy that she had this time in her 656 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 2: life where she was able to be a vocal advocate 657 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 2: for her people and make change for other people coming 658 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 2: up in technology, Like I think that's so beautiful. 659 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, and I gotta ask, did IBM ever 660 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: you know, come back with the athology well. 661 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 4: So that's a great question. 662 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: So you're probably thinking, wow, Conway is basically this like 663 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 2: world changing badass, who is the reason we have smartphones. 664 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: IBM really messed up by firing her, and they would agree. 665 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 2: After over fifty years of silence about how they treated 666 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: Lyn Conway, finally in October of twenty twenty, IBM invited 667 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 2: their staff to an event called tech Trailblazers and transgender 668 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 2: pioneer Lynn Conway in conversation with Diane Gerson. And Garrison, 669 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 2: at the time was IBM's senior vice president of human Resources, 670 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 2: and the event started with a formal apology to Conway 671 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: for her transphobic firing fifty two years earlier, and Conway 672 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 2: said that when this was happening, she was like struggling 673 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: to hold back tears. And not only did they apologize, 674 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 2: but they also recognized her immense and deep contributions to 675 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 2: IBM's work that again had just gone like unattributed because 676 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 2: they fired her. So they fired her to avoid being 677 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 2: associated with a trans woman, and so. 678 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 4: They couldn't very well be like, oh, well, all of. 679 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 2: These different things we are contributions we have because of 680 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 2: this transwoman we fired for being trans so they basically 681 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 2: just like overlooked and unattributed all of this work that 682 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,760 Speaker 2: she had done. Dario Gill, director of IBM Research, presented 683 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 2: Conway with a Lifetime Achievement Award, given to individuals who 684 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 2: have changed the world through technological innovations, and Gil noted 685 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 2: that Lynn's extraordinary tech nical achievements helped to find the 686 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 2: modern computing industry. She paved the way for how we 687 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 2: design and make computing ships today and forever change microelectronics 688 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 2: devices and people's lives. And again, you know, it was 689 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 2: fifty two years later that this company finally acknowledged that 690 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 2: after she was fired in nineteen sixty eight, that her 691 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 2: research was still aiding IBM success today. A spokesperson for 692 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 2: IBM said, in nineteen sixty five, Lynn created the architectural 693 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 2: level Advanced Computing System one simulator and invented a method 694 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 2: that led to the development of a super scalar computer. 695 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 2: This dynamic instruction scheduling invention was later used at computer ships, 696 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 2: greatly improving their performance. And so basically all of that 697 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 2: is to say, finally IBM was like, oh, yeah, this 698 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,720 Speaker 2: like groundbreaking research that she did we still use today 699 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 2: and like actually really helped us today. And you know it, 700 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 2: just for me is like, finally, fifty two years later, 701 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 2: you can apologize and acknowledge, and Conway said of the event, 702 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 2: instead of just being a resolution of what happened in 703 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight, it became a heart I felt group 704 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 2: celebration of how far we've all come since then. 705 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 6: Wait, so did the dude that fired her? Was he 706 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 6: still alive? Because I just really need to know that 707 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:11,479 Speaker 6: he needs to know. 708 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 5: That I apologize him. I really need to see this. 709 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 5: I want him sitting in the board meeting, hearing this 710 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,720 Speaker 5: conversation and them saying, you know what, this is your fault. 711 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 5: You messed up, and we're having to do this to 712 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 5: do a Maya copa because of what I really need 713 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 5: that in the back of my head, I want. 714 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 2: A if he I don't know if he's so alive, 715 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 2: but if you're if he is, I want a personalized 716 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 2: video message apology. 717 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 6: This is what I need. 718 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,359 Speaker 5: And you know what, because I feel like again, this 719 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 5: is a movie in my head that I've been playing 720 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 5: for the last thirty and what some thirty somewhat minutes. 721 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 6: I need to know. 722 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 5: I need to see the scene of her standing by 723 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 5: the river with her nice home, talking about her past, 724 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 5: sitting with hopefully her children and her grandchildren. 725 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 6: And talking about where she is today. 726 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 5: So can you please finish out this conclusion that I 727 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:05,479 Speaker 5: desperately need. 728 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 4: Oh my god, I'm happy to you. 729 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 2: And this is something else that I like love about 730 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 2: her story is that she's still very much alive. January second, 731 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 2: she celebrated her eighty fifth birthday, so just a few 732 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 2: weeks ago. Happy birthday, Happy birthday. 733 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 4: And something else. 734 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 2: That I love about her story is that like she 735 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 2: you know, when I was researching for this episode, I 736 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 2: found all these great videos of her. 737 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 4: She is living her best life. 738 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 2: She is on twenty four beautiful acres of meadow marsh 739 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 2: and woodlands and rural Michigan with her husband, where they 740 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 2: spend all of their time like exploring the outdoors. 741 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 4: You know. I saw these videos of them writing, like. 742 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,280 Speaker 2: Four wheelers together on their property, and like canoeing together, 743 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 2: and like climbing together, and I just felt like, I'm 744 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 2: so happy that she is like living her best life 745 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 2: and she's still an amazing activist. 746 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 4: You can follow her on Twitter at Lynn Conway. 747 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm so happy that her story ends with 748 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 2: her with a loving husband, living her best life in Michigan, 749 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 2: exploring the outdoors. 750 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: Yes, and I love that this theme of like adventure 751 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: and canoeing has been so foundational and helped her through 752 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: these like tough times in her life. And now she 753 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: has all this land and she gets to still explore 754 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: those things that bring her joy. 755 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 3: That makes me very happy. 756 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:22,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really sweet. 757 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 2: Like if anybody like definitely that you can google pictures 758 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 2: of her and google videos of her on her property 759 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 2: and like it's it's the cutest. 760 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 4: It like melted my heart. It made me very very happy. 761 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:33,800 Speaker 3: I need this. 762 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: Or trying you, Samantha, I feel like you need to 763 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: be attached to this project if it. 764 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 3: Ever is exploding. 765 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 6: Like this is what I needed today. 766 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 5: The feel good but like heart wrenching tell of coming 767 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 5: through all the trials and tribulation and then coming to 768 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 5: the end with her massive property, happily with holding hands 769 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 5: with her husband, loving life. 770 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 4: It makes me so happy. 771 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 2: And I just kind of say, like, you know, trans 772 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 2: people like Lynn Conway deserve to live full, beautiful lives 773 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,760 Speaker 2: that account for their contributions and their brilliance. And they 774 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,280 Speaker 2: deserve that regardless of where they are on their journeys, 775 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 2: you know, transition. Like obviously this story was very focused 776 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 2: around Conway's transition, but transition means different things to different people, 777 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 2: Like it can mean personal and medical and legal steps, 778 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 2: or like telling someone's family and friends and coworkers, or 779 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 2: using a different name or new pronouns, or dressing differently, 780 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 2: or it can be different things for different people. 781 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,240 Speaker 4: And as we discussed. 782 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,839 Speaker 2: Earlier, you know, it can be really financially prohibitive for many. 783 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 2: And so regardless of whether or not trans folks are 784 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 2: able to transition the way that Conway did, they deserve 785 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 2: to live full lives like they deserve whatever their particular 786 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 2: version of a twenty four acre farm on the woodlands 787 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 2: and rural Michigan is like, they deserve that, whether they 788 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 2: can transition the way that she did or not. And so, 789 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 2: you know, I just want to say that because I 790 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 2: think that sometimes can feel like the reason why her 791 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,359 Speaker 2: story gets the happy ending is because she was able 792 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 2: to transition. And I think that everybody deserves a full 793 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 2: life and a happy ending, regardless of where they are 794 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 2: on that journey. 795 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,399 Speaker 5: I mean, that's the end goal is people live their 796 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,720 Speaker 5: best life, to truly have the freedom and the peace 797 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 5: and happy of pursuit of happiness, as they should, because 798 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,760 Speaker 5: this is about them, it's not about us. When people 799 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:26,280 Speaker 5: are disenfranchised and pushed to the point of being non existent, 800 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 5: that's when we lose great minds, and that's what we 801 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 5: lose greatness in general. And it breaks my heart obviously, 802 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,879 Speaker 5: as you have brought this story to us, that this 803 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,359 Speaker 5: is a good ending, and I love that we can 804 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 5: celebrate her while she's still here and give her the 805 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 5: flowers that she deserves while she's still here. 806 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 6: But at the same time, you. 807 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 5: Know, we can't look past the fact that she had 808 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 5: to go through this in the first place. And though 809 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,319 Speaker 5: she was able to get through it, and thank God 810 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 5: that she was able to, there's so many others who 811 00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 5: are pushed beyond those boundaries, and that we don't get 812 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 5: to sell who they are because of hate and ignorance 813 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 5: and the continued need to erase and completely censure these 814 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 5: amazing people just for who they are, just for living. 815 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 6: And we cannot be quiet. 816 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 5: And belittle the fact that this is an ongoing issue 817 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 5: today and the many who have been killed, the many 818 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 5: who have died by suicide, like all of these things 819 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 5: are important that we keep talking about what great success 820 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,760 Speaker 5: can look like. But the fact that that she shouldn't 821 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 5: have have gone through half the ship that she had 822 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 5: to go through and have many of these people have 823 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 5: to go through. 824 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 825 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,240 Speaker 2: I mean, that's one of the reasons why her story 826 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 2: sticks with me because it just reminds me to sell 827 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 2: it to like build the monuments to these marginalized people 828 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 2: who are so often erased, and do so as a 829 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 2: way to honor the people who didn't make it, the 830 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,800 Speaker 2: people whose voices and whose stories we won't hear, the 831 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,439 Speaker 2: people who are making contributions that we don't know about 832 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 2: right now, right that we won't find out about. And so, 833 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 2: you know, I think it's so important that we, just 834 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 2: like you said that, we don't let sexist, racist, transphobic 835 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,919 Speaker 2: systems erase these accomplishments because they are important to all 836 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 2: of us. There there are history as just as people 837 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 2: as humans. And so it's you really said it, like 838 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 2: it's so important to me. And Conway has this great 839 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 2: piece kind of looking back on her life in the 840 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 2: Huffington Post and it ends with this great line, bottom line, 841 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 2: if you want to change the future, start living as 842 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 2: if you're already there. 843 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 4: And I love that for her. I love the idea 844 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:35,360 Speaker 4: of all. 845 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 2: Of us taking responsibility to sort of create the world 846 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 2: we want to see and build these these monuments to 847 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 2: these marginalized voices that we desperately need. So Lynn Conway, 848 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 2: you are a hero. You are incredible, Your story is amazing. 849 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 2: You are a badass. And I'm so glad that we 850 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 2: can talk about her while she's still alive. Like we 851 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 2: could go tweet at her if you wanted, Like, that's incredible, 852 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 2: that is living history. 853 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: That is coneet at her from the technologies she health created. 854 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 3: That got me really excited. 855 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: And thank you, Bridget for bringing this story for always, 856 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, finding these these things that we might have 857 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: missed that are so important, are so so valuable for 858 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:18,720 Speaker 1: us to know and talk about. 859 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 3: So we really appreciate it. And thank you. 860 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 2: Thank you, oh thank you for giving me the space 861 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,480 Speaker 2: to do it. This is my favorite thing to do 862 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,319 Speaker 2: in the world. It makes me so happy. So thank 863 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 2: thanks to the both of you. 864 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,839 Speaker 1: Yes, well, I can't wait to do it again. We'll 865 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,719 Speaker 1: see what we can get moving with this motion picture deal. 866 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, Bridget, where can the good listeners 867 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:42,680 Speaker 1: find you? 868 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 2: You can find me at my own podcast called There 869 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,360 Speaker 2: Are No Girls on the Internet, where we love digging 870 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,799 Speaker 2: into the unexplored, overlooked history of marginalized folks and how 871 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 2: they shape technology in the Internet. You can find me 872 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 2: on Instagram at Bridget Marie and DC and on Twitter, 873 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:58,880 Speaker 2: probably tweeting at Lyn Conway how much I love her 874 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:00,160 Speaker 2: at Bridget Murray. 875 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 3: Yes, I love it, I love it. 876 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 1: Definitely go check all that stuff out listeners, if you 877 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,399 Speaker 1: haven't already, thank you again Bridget to wait to hang 878 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:16,919 Speaker 1: out again in this virtual weird pandemic setting, and thank 879 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,319 Speaker 1: you listeners for listening. If you want to contact us, 880 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: you can our email Stuffidia mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. 881 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts 882 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 1: or on Instagram a stuff when Never Told You. Thanks 883 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: as always to our super producer Christina, Thank you and 884 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening. Stuff Will Never Told You. 885 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,799 Speaker 1: Distrection of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 886 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 1: it's the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 887 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:36,120 Speaker 3: You listen to your favorite shows.