1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: On today's episode, Pat Fitzgerald fired by Northwestern. 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 2: Welcome to the solid verbal. He'll that for me. I'm 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 2: a man, I'm for it. I've heard so many players say, well, 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: I want to be happy. 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 3: You want to be happy for day Edith State? Is 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 3: that woo woom? 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 1: And Dan and Tye, Welcome back to the salid Re Bowl, 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: Boys and girls. My name is ty Hildenbrand, joining me 9 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: as always over there in the heart of the Midwest, 10 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: the epicenter of the latest college football news stories to drop. 11 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: Just moments ago, Dan Rubinstein, sir, how are you, my friend? 12 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 3: I'm all right. 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 4: It's been a weirdly busy day and days hyper locally 14 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 4: in the college football universe. We're doing this show about 15 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 4: Pat Fitzgerald and the tenure and the allegations and the 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 4: hazing and the discipline. And as per usual, Tie, I'm 17 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 4: going to do the podcaster's lament. 18 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 3: Can I do that? 19 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: You can please? 20 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 3: The podcaster's lament? Is? 21 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 4: I think we recorded a very high quality show with 22 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 4: Roger Sherman, who of course went to Northwestern, worked at 23 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 4: and edited the sports section of the Daily Northwestern is 24 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 4: a long time Northwestern football die hard, and so we 25 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 4: wanted his very specific and unique insight into Northwestern football 26 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 4: and Pat Fitzgerald and the program at large. And we 27 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 4: recorded that about three hours ago and it was all 28 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 4: set to go, and then we got news that Pat Fitzgerald. 29 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 4: I saw it via Pete Thamil at ESPN is who 30 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 4: I saw it from. That's right, that Pat Fitzgerald has 31 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 4: been let go by Northwestern. 32 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: This story has moved at light speed, to the extent 33 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 1: where if you weren't following it as it broke at 34 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: the end of last week, you may be a bit 35 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: in the dark, and you wouldn't be alone, because I'm 36 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: tweeting it out now. There are a number of folks 37 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: who are wondering why, how could this happen? The quick 38 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: recap here is that at the end of November twenty 39 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,919 Speaker 1: twenty two, in anonymous email, triggered an investigation at Northwestern 40 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: into some hazing allegations. Back in January, the university acknowledged 41 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: that there was an investigation ongoing, and now recently the 42 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: summary of that investigation became public. The investigator in that 43 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: case found that the reports of hazing were credible, they 44 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: were widespread among players. They couldn't find sufficient evidence that 45 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: Pat Fitzgerald knew about the hazing, but there had been, 46 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: per the athletic quote, significant opportunities to discover the implication 47 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: there being that maybe he looked the other way. After 48 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: bits of that investigation surfaced, university President Michael Schill handed 49 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: down a two week suspension for Pat Fitzgerald without pay, 50 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: in addition to a number of other changes to the 51 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: football program, no offsite practices at Camp Kenosha, a locker 52 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: room monitor and online reporting tools, some anti hazing training, 53 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: things of that ilk. Shortly thereafter, the Daily Northwestern again 54 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: the student newspaper, issued a bombshell report and we're detailing 55 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: the graphic nature of this hazing. On Saturday night, the 56 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: university president backtracked, said he may have aired in his 57 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: decision to only suspend fits two weeks and said that 58 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: in the days ahead he would engage leadership and assess 59 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: future steps. And here we are a few hours after 60 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: we hit stop. Indeed, Pat Fitzgerald was dismissed as football 61 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: coach for the Northwestern Wildcats. So the conversation that follows 62 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: will be I think some context from Roger in what 63 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: he knows about being close to the Northwestern football program 64 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: and athletics program at large. It is all interesting context 65 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: given the state of affairs, given where we're at right now. 66 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:50,119 Speaker 1: Pat Fitzgerald his career record at Northwestern, finishing out at 67 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: one ten and one oh one. His first season with 68 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: the Wildcats as a coach was back in two thousand 69 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: and six. One of the things you'll hear us highlight 70 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: a little bit with Roger is just how much Pat 71 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: Fitzgerald meant to the Northwestern football family, the Northwestern athletics program. Yeah, 72 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: for all intents and purposes, he was the program, not 73 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: just the face of it, but sort of the embodiment 74 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: of everything it was supposed to stand for. And obviously, 75 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: under the weight of these recent allegations, did he know. 76 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: Did he not know? 77 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 3: Should he have known? 78 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 2: Could he have known? 79 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: I mean, there's just so many thoughts and so many 80 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: questions that have swirled since this news became public. It 81 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: became rather apparent here at least when we started having 82 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: our discussion earlier, and to be honest, hours before that, 83 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: that this was not something he could survive. It was 84 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: just a very toxic situation and Northwestern needed to move on. 85 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: They've chosen to do so. After we hit the stop button. 86 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure they did not have us in mind. They 87 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: had the safety of their program and their players in mind. 88 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 89 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 4: Story definitely not about us and about people reporting it 90 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 4: and reacting to it. 91 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: So, you know, one of the things that you said 92 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: on our conversation here that is to f is just 93 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: living around the area, which you do, the deep reverence 94 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: that people have for the Northwestern football program. We tend 95 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: to think of it on a national level in terms 96 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: of like, hey, they were one and eleven last year, 97 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: they were three and nine the year prior, they were 98 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: three and nine and twenty nineteen, this hasn't really been 99 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: that good of a football team, and that's the lens 100 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: through which most people see it. But locally that is 101 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: not the case. Locally, this is like a thing. 102 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, people love Northwestern and people have emotions about Northwestern. 103 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 4: Roger mentioned the project to fully overhaul Ryan Field and 104 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 4: a lot of like signs in front yards that are 105 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 4: supporting it or think it's going to you know, ruin 106 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 4: the world, all sorts of emotions running high, but just 107 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 4: very locally. The fascinating thing is that this is a 108 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 4: weird program. You know, this is a program in which 109 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 4: literally one person has been able to kind of sort 110 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 4: of sustain success if you look at where they were 111 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 4: between like twenty two, twelve and twenty eighteen, and then 112 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 4: they give Ohio State everything they can handle in the 113 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 4: twenty twenty Big Ten Championship game. And so there's this 114 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 4: ongoing conversation about is it like a good year or 115 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 4: bad year Northwestern, and it seemed to alternate. But there 116 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 4: was the rock solid presence of Pat Fitzgerald through it all, 117 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 4: and you know, through his time as a player and 118 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 4: as a coach, it was maybe the only school in 119 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 4: the country where results be damned, he can coach there 120 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 4: as long as he wants, Like Nick Saban can win 121 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 4: a ton of games at Alabama, but if it goes 122 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 4: to like eight and four, nine and three territory for 123 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 4: two three straight years, he might be gone. You could 124 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 4: obviously not say that with Northwestern fully defeated on American 125 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 4: soil last season. 126 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, still there, I do think that, you know, we 127 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: see scandals like this from time to time in college 128 00:06:54,560 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: football where the coach is revered by the community, revered 129 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: by the program, the alumni base, the moneymen and women, 130 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: and these decisions are very very difficult, especially in times 131 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: of scandal and I do credit Northwestern for moving quickly 132 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: to resolve the matter after it became apparent that their 133 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: initial punishment, the two week unpaid suspension that they handed 134 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: down on Friday, was not going to be tenable, not 135 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: after the Daily Northwestern report, the student newspaper, mind you, 136 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: that came forward with explosive allegations that I think spelled 137 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: out for the general public in a little bit more detail, 138 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: what type of hazing incidents we were talking about here, 139 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: Ones that rose to the level of sexual abuse, which 140 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: really truly disturbing to see in real year. You know, 141 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: you feel it bad for anybody that had to experience that, 142 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: and it almost minimizes it to some extent that we 143 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: talk about it just from a football standpoint. But with 144 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: that as sort of the backdrop and the great reporting 145 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: from the student newspaper, the university president, Michael Show left 146 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: no choice. He did issue a statement on Saturday saying 147 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: that he was going to reassess, said that he had 148 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: aired in his decision to only give a two week 149 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: suspension without pay, and that he was going to consult 150 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: with others, the board of trustees, et cetera, et cetera, 151 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: to see if there was a different course of action. 152 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: He obviously moved pretty swiftly between Saturday night and now 153 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: this being Monday evening to dismiss the coach and move forward. 154 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: It's still very early as we're recording this, Dan, we 155 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: don't know who the interim will be. There's a lot 156 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: of unanswered questions. My hunch is that we won't have 157 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: those for a bit here, and we'll do our best 158 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: on the show to try and cover that as best 159 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: we can. It's not often we have these types of 160 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: discussions in early July. 161 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 3: Now. 162 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: It's just July has been a very very interesting period 163 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: over college football for the last I don't know three 164 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: years now, just the unexpected news stories that sneak up 165 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: on us, and this just happens to be the latest 166 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: of them. 167 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I honestly, I don't think it was that 168 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 4: difficult a decision, which I don't think you are alluding to. 169 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 4: It didn't seem like it was that difficult a decision 170 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 4: given like if A, well, you kind of have to 171 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 4: get rid of him, If B you kind of have 172 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 4: to get rid of him. If C, which is a 173 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 4: combination of A and B, you kind of have to. 174 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 3: Get rid of him. 175 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 4: Right, whether he knew, whether he didn't know, whether he 176 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 4: should have known. You're now entering a period of obviously 177 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 4: you don't glaze over the fact that, like, yeah, this 178 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 4: is a horrible thing allegedly that was happening within his program, 179 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 4: that was corrob rated and investigated and everything. 180 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: Right, but also. 181 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 4: It's it's the kind of thing that like times have 182 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 4: long ago changed where this is obviously this information is 183 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 4: going to get out. Yeah, Like there had to have 184 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 4: been opportunities if we had staffers, right, staffers were in 185 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 4: the know reportedly, right, If we're going to trust all 186 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 4: this reporting, we have no reason not to. If staffers knew, 187 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 4: if former players knew, current players, older players. Going back 188 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 4: to two thousand and seven, it almost seems nearly impossible 189 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 4: that Pat Fitzgerald took the tact of like b. 190 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 2: Bup, bup bup. 191 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 3: Let me stop you right there, la la la la la. 192 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 4: Fingers are in my ear right, That seems impossible, coupled 193 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 4: with the fact that and look, this is not why 194 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 4: it happened. It happened because it had to be done. 195 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 4: But what's today's date, the tenth of July. Yeah, we 196 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 4: are in the literal, maybe not literal, we are in 197 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 4: the figurative slowest part of the sports calendar. This is 198 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 4: the only story happening. The lights couldn't be brighter on 199 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 4: Northwestern in this moment, right, isn't this like the time 200 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 4: of year? I think there's NBA Summer League, maybe the 201 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 4: MLB All Star Game. 202 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 3: Whatever. 203 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, and so this is not a news dump, is 204 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 4: what you're saying. It's not a news dump. It's not 205 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 4: a like, should we shouldn't we? It's there was obviously 206 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 4: pressure and there's eyeballs on this situation in a way 207 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 4: that perhaps there wouldn't be. But if this wrappening in 208 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 4: March is rapping in October, it also seemed like it'd 209 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 4: be a no brainer. But it just seems especially so 210 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 4: now given the attention on the program, and there was 211 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 4: there was no clear path forward, Like, how do you 212 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 4: have if your path fas Yerald, how do you recruit 213 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 4: to Northwestern? How do you if you're a Northwestern administrator, 214 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 4: if you're a parent of a current Northwestern player or 215 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 4: a prospective player, how do you square everything that has 216 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 4: been investigated and corroborated within the program. 217 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 3: It seems just impossible. 218 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: If you're a booster, Yeah, funding the operation wanting to 219 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: help pay for renovations, wanting to help take Northwestern to 220 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: the next level. 221 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 3: You don't want to be associated with it. 222 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, people don't want to be associated with toxic brands. 223 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 3: They just don't. 224 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: And I hate to sort of minimize the situation by 225 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 1: making it in terms of money, but this is like. 226 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 3: A sub reason you're talking. 227 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is where we're at with college football, 228 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: and this is how decisions are normally made in other 229 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: situations that aren't quite as explosive. When the money dries up, 230 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: suddenly there's a problem in a hurry, and especially for 231 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: things like this, you know, kudos to Northwestern for recognizing 232 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: quickly that there was going to be a problem here 233 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,319 Speaker 1: and that you know, they needed to correct things and 234 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: making the move, because it wouldn't have been a tenable 235 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: situation to keep fits for as revered as I'm sure 236 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: he still is to a large extent in the Northwestern family, 237 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: it just wasn't going to work moving forward. There's no 238 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: way he couldn't do it. 239 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 4: It's a fascinating situation moving forward as well, because this 240 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 4: is not an incredible job in and of itself, but 241 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 4: because you're in the Big ten, because of the money 242 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 4: involved because of the access both in the Midwest and 243 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 4: the fact that you can and have to recruit nationally 244 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 4: based on some of the academic qualifications that you need 245 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 4: to play for Northwestern. It's interesting we've seen schools of 246 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 4: this type of academic background succeed. It's more difficult to 247 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 4: succeed at a place like Northwestern, I would say, than 248 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 4: other places, but there are certainly appeal points. And it's 249 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 4: also fascinating to see Pat Fitzgerald's done as a football 250 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 4: coach forever? 251 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 3: Is this it? 252 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 4: We're just not going to hear from him. I tend 253 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 4: to think if he wants to coach, if this is 254 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 4: something that he feels like he needs to do as 255 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 4: a person and perhaps does self reflection, perhaps you know, 256 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 4: goes on some sort of not apology tour, but you know, 257 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 4: sort of builds more goodwill. 258 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 3: After this is going on. Day. 259 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 4: Darkin is a defensive coordinator at a major place right now. 260 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 4: That's right, so doors are never fully closed, it seems 261 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 4: in this sport. I'm not sure what that actual line is, 262 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 4: but yeah, DJ Darkin has been a was the coordinator 263 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 4: at both Ole Miss and now Texas A and M. 264 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 4: After overseeing something pretty awful and horrendous. Just a little 265 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 4: podcast about it actually, So I don't know, man, It's 266 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 4: fascinating on a bunch of different levels, but wild that 267 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 4: we're talking about a Northwestern program not coached by Pat Fitzgerald. 268 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: Moving forward, we're going to play back our conversation with 269 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: Roger to give you some context for all this and 270 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: get hit thoughts. We assumed, as you mentioned Dan, when 271 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: we recorded the interview earlier today, that this was going 272 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: to happen. We didn't expect it this quickly, so bear 273 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: that in mind. But I think some useful context from 274 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: Roger will hop on at the end of the conversation. 275 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: Offer some final thoughts. Appreciate you being with us here, 276 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: Hit subscribe, hit follow if you want more college football 277 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: a podcasting coverage throughout the course of the pre pre preseason, 278 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: whatever we're in now in July, make sure you follow 279 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: along on socials and on YouTube. We'll catch you on 280 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: the flip side of that Roger conversation here. 281 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 3: He is, I'm honored. I am. 282 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 4: I think we're right in welcoming our next guest here 283 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 4: because there are obviously a lot of people with connections 284 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 4: to Northwestern and Northwestern sports and Northwestern journalism and Northwestern 285 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 4: football out there in the sports media world. But we 286 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 4: have ourselves a dear friend of the show and former 287 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 4: sports editor of the Daily Northwestern, of course, the student 288 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 4: run newspaper who broke a huge part of this Pat 289 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 4: Fitzgerald and hazing story from the Ringer dot com. And 290 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 4: he's covered the NFL, he's covered college football, he's covered 291 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 4: sports of all kinds, he's covered news. 292 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 3: Look at that. 293 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 4: Look at that resume, Look at that CV, Roger Sherman. 294 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 4: How you doing I'm doing good. 295 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, the Daily Northwestern was the one who broke the story. 296 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 5: I was the sports editor there. 297 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 2: You know. 298 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 5: The funny thing about Northwestern football is like they really 299 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 5: like it when like people go on TV and say, 300 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 5: I went to Northwestern Journalism School and I'm a big 301 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 5: fan of the Northwestern team. 302 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: But they don't like it so much when. 303 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 5: The people at the Northwestern Journalism School do reporting things 304 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 5: happening within Northwestern's football program real Catch twenty two. There 305 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 5: nice when Michael Wilbon or Mike Greenberg goes on TV 306 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 5: and says Northwestern is good and I went there right. 307 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 5: Not so much when the student paper reveals possibly decades 308 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 5: of hazing and other not so great conduct in the program. 309 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 4: What was your reaction when you heard the news? And then, 310 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 4: obviously it's been a minute since you graduated, so I 311 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 4: don't expect you to have the most connected sources still 312 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 4: at the student paper, but maybe you do. What was 313 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 4: your reaction when you found out the story? And from 314 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 4: an insider's perspective, just because you were there and did 315 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 4: the thing, what's on your mind? 316 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: I don't have sources anymore. Although what makes me. 317 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 5: A little bit sad and worried is like people have 318 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 5: reported players as far back as like two thousand and seven, 319 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 5: which is before I actually even got to school, and 320 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 5: people have said that some of these activities have been 321 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 5: going on for that long. 322 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 2: So I guess I. 323 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 5: Wasn't doing my job as the sports editor of the 324 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 5: Daily Northwestern for not uncovering this at the time. You know, 325 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 5: It's that they had revealed that there was an investigation 326 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 5: going on a little while ago, and then on Friday 327 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 5: they announced the two week suspension, and I think as 328 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 5: soon as the Daily broke that story on Saturday, it 329 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 5: became clear that two week suspension wasn't going to hold 330 00:16:53,280 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 5: up and wasn't enough. Just very upsetting on all fronts. 331 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 5: You know, the thing about Northwestern football is like there 332 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 5: is this sense of like that Pat FitzGeralds has instilled 333 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 5: this idea that he does things the right way. That's 334 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 5: that's his A, B and C. That's his bread and butter, 335 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 5: good clean American fun. He brings people in. They are, 336 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 5: you know, smart, and they go to class and they 337 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 5: do all these things that they sort of imply people 338 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 5: at other places might not be as righteous and rigorous 339 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 5: as we are. And obviously sometimes you like roll your 340 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 5: eyes a little bit, but you don't really expect something 341 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 5: quite this big of an affront to that ideal and 342 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 5: this big of a letdown. It's so counter to that 343 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 5: premise that they've been selling for almost two decades at Northwestern. 344 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 4: So the timeline of the story, as you alluded to, 345 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,959 Speaker 4: is there was an announced investigations. Fitzgerald was then disciplined 346 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 4: a two week unpaid suspension, and since then there's been 347 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 4: a letter from quote unquote the entire football team, the 348 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 4: which football team, which is to say that no names 349 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 4: were attributed to said letter. And then it came out 350 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 4: that it arrived via a phone number from a former player, Yeah, 351 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 4: and who said that the thoughts and the spirit of 352 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 4: the letter came from a zoom call with some members 353 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 4: of the team, and obviously it was a very strange 354 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,959 Speaker 4: read because and I'm paraphrasing, please do correct me Ti 355 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 4: or Roger if I have this wrong, that things were 356 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 4: exaggerated or twisted and didn't happen and are outright fabricated lies. 357 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 3: And also. 358 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 4: If they did happen, Pat Fitzgerald didn't know about them, 359 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 4: which is very confusing. And maybe I'm just not that bright, 360 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 4: but that seems kind of backwards. 361 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: Yes, the only other thing that I would add, Dan 362 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: is is whether or not Pat Fitzgerald knew, and he 363 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: acknowledged the university president did in his statement that went 364 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: out late on Saturday night that in handing out this 365 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: two week unpaid suspension to Fitzgerald, he maybe did not 366 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: take into account whether or not Fitzgerald should have known. Right, 367 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: the results of the investigation were such that it was 368 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: widespread knowledge among players that there was something going on. 369 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: Did Fitzgerald know? Should he have known? Given the circumstances, 370 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: and how it seems all the other players did as well. 371 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: That's really what the crux of this comes down to, 372 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: where I think the story goes next Roger if. 373 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 5: I'm yeah, And some of the recent reports. There was 374 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 5: a report from Wildcat Report, which is a website that 375 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 5: has covers like Northwestern recruiting good stuff. They said former 376 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 5: staffers were aware of this happening. There have been reports 377 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 5: from inside a You, which is a team site run 378 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 5: by Northwestern students, that players came forth that have been 379 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 5: there it since the beginning of Fitzgerald's tenure, that knew 380 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 5: about this. And it's one thing if it's like, oh, 381 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 5: this is something that developed in the last year and 382 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 5: fits somehow didn't know what was going on, but it 383 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 5: really strains belief the idea that someone could be a 384 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 5: coach for close to two decades and not have any 385 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 5: idea that this is going on in their program. If 386 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 5: those reports that people have been doing this since two 387 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 5: thousand and six, in two thousand and seven are accurate, Yeah, 388 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 5: there's pretty much no way that the head coach couldn't know. 389 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 5: And if they didn't know, that's that's damning in its 390 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 5: own right, and that's something that's come up in past 391 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 5: college sports scandals, like not knowing doesn't necessarily absolve the 392 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 5: head coach of responsibility and I mean, we alluded to 393 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 5: that letter, which a lot of people around the program 394 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 5: have sprung up to say Coach Fitzgerald didn't know, and 395 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 5: he's such a high caliber guy, and you know, there's 396 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 5: this thought in the back of my head, like if 397 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 5: this letter is coming from quote unquote the entire team 398 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 5: and they're saying there was no hazing slash Pat Fitzgerald 399 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 5: didn't know about the hazing. Hypothetically, these are the people 400 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 5: who were involved in Some of the people were hypothetically 401 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 5: involved in doing right the hazing and still often seem 402 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 5: more interested in absolving Pat Fitzgerald of responsibility for it 403 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 5: than you know, like that themselves. There's some wagon circling 404 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 5: around there on fits because it feels like he is 405 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 5: in a way that very few people in college sports are. 406 00:21:54,080 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 5: He's responsible for so much of Northwestern's historic all time success. 407 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 3: He is the program. 408 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: He is the program. 409 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 5: He is the greatest player the program has ever had, 410 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 5: the greatest coach the program has had. He has twice 411 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 5: as many wins as anybody else Since he took over, 412 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 5: Northwestern's other sports have like received increased funday and success. 413 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 5: That's not all on him, obviously, it's on the coaches 414 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 5: of those teams too, but like everything about the program 415 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 5: has changed since he started to be there, and I 416 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 5: got the sense they just obviously wanted it to, you know, 417 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 5: go away, and it became clear on Saturday that it's 418 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 5: not going to. 419 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: So as you now the former I guess editor or 420 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: sports editor of the Daily Northwestern. When you look at 421 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: this chronology of events, okay, we find out about these 422 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 1: actions that are being taken against the coach, against the 423 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: program to try and change the culture. The report drops 424 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: suddenly the university president has a change of heart. Is 425 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: he having that change of heart if not for the 426 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: Daily Northwestern report? Is there something else here, an external 427 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: factor that we don't know about, or was it just 428 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: that intrepid reporting that led to this? 429 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 5: The thing that's that the story with the president, it 430 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 5: seems he was hired last year, is the first year 431 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 5: from Go Ducks, and he was actually the second choice. 432 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 5: They hired Wisconsin's president and she had had health issues 433 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 5: and had to decline the job and passed away sadly, 434 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 5: and they hired Michael Shill kind of very quickly, I 435 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 5: think less than a month went into the search. And 436 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 5: he comes in and Pat Fitzgerald is the most famous 437 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 5: person at the school. He is their biggest fundraiser. He 438 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 5: is so ingrained with the program that I don't even 439 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 5: know how they would hire a next person. They have 440 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 5: not been involved in the coaching carousel since the since 441 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 5: the twentieth century. You don't know what the program would 442 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 5: look like in that case. And I get the sense 443 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 5: he comes on the job and is not interested in it. 444 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 5: Making a decision on Pat Fitzgerald in his first year 445 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 5: as president, like I'm not taking that on unpaid two 446 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 5: weeks suspensions. 447 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 2: Will We'll hope that this goes away. 448 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 5: And then, you know, Northwestern kids did reporting and I 449 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 5: really do think I think it might have come out eventually, 450 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 5: but yeah, to see it happen within a day and 451 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 5: to see that change of heart with it a day 452 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 5: likely came from the reporting. And don't really know how 453 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 5: they care, and you know, keep this, keep Pat Fitzgerald 454 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 5: at this point, which is which is such a strange 455 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 5: thing to say. 456 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the university president cited a conversation that 457 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: he had with one of the complainants and said that 458 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: he was so moved and maybe that that was part 459 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: of the reason why he was having a change of 460 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: heart with respect to the penalties here, however, the timing 461 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: is a little suspect given the reporting that went on 462 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: and when it dropped in the report obviously got a 463 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 1: fair amount of traction, not just in the college football 464 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: world but broader media as a whole. 465 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 5: It feels like every hour I see something new, no 466 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 5: right on my phone that happened under his watch. And 467 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 5: again it all comes back to the idea that Pat 468 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 5: Fitzgerald has fostered that he is sort of this benevolent 469 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 5: guardian of this entire. 470 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 2: Program and in subways in the school that. 471 00:25:59,240 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: Ed. 472 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 5: The idea that anything like this could happen is I 473 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 5: think damning whether he knew about it or not, and 474 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 5: it's becoming increasingly unlikely that he didn't know about it. 475 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 4: It has the feel really of and I hadn't thought 476 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 4: about it in this through this lens until this story, 477 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 4: but like of the long tenured legendary like almost like 478 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 4: a college basketball coach, right, like a coach k or 479 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 4: a Jim Beheim or a Bobby Knight, that like there's 480 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 4: this idea that they are bigger than the school they 481 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 4: have brought so much attention to school that like we said, 482 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 4: they are the school. Can you speak to the power 483 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 4: structure at Northwestern? You mentioned a new president, it's also 484 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 4: a relatively new athletic director with the longtime athletic director 485 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 4: leaving to become the commissioner of the ACC not terribly 486 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 4: long ago. And this is something that you can correct 487 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 4: me on if I'm wrong. There's like a guy, a 488 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 4: money guy behind the scenes and family, and I assume 489 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 4: it's not like whatever the Ryan family says goes, but 490 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 4: like my assumption is Pat Fitzgerald and the Ryan family 491 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 4: are very tight, or else perhaps a coach who has 492 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 4: gone one in eight in the Big Ten three of 493 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 4: the last four years might not still be coaching. 494 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 5: So there's a new athletic director within the last few years. 495 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 5: And there's actually sort of a backstory there. Northwestern previously 496 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 5: had promoted someone Mike Pliski, to be the athletic director, 497 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 5: and he was named in a lawsuit about racial discrimination 498 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 5: in the cheerleading program. And there was a similar thing 499 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 5: where a lot of Northwestern student athletes endorsed him becoming 500 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 5: the athletic director and holding onto that job, but ultimately 501 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 5: he stepped down because there was so much pressure around 502 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 5: the program. So that's somewhat informative for this moment right now, 503 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 5: because it seems like there is the ability to change 504 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 5: decisions if people are loud enough and angry enough about 505 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 5: something that happening. 506 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: Ed. 507 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 5: Yes, so new athletic director, new president. There is a 508 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 5: notable billionaire, Pat Ryan, after whom the football stadium Ryan 509 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 5: Field is named after. The basketball stadium Welshrian Arena is 510 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 5: named after the football practice facility Ryan Fieldhouse is named 511 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 5: after him. He's very rich ed. He has devoted almost 512 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 5: his entire well, no that's not true. He also gives 513 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 5: billions of dollars to other stuff, but he has devoted 514 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 5: far too much money to Northwestern Athletics. 515 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 2: I personally would have given less. Eds. They are renovating 516 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 2: the stadium. 517 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 5: It's going to cost eight hundred million dollars and a 518 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 5: lot of that is done by Pat Ryan and with 519 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 5: Pat Fitzgerald, you know, sort of as the face of this. 520 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 5: You know, all of these new facilities and new programs 521 00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 5: that they have a beautiful new like sparkling football thing 522 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 5: on the like Michigan like yeah, it's it's incredible, And 523 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 5: all of this has sort of happened in this Pat 524 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 5: Fitzgerald era and with a billionaire donating large sums of 525 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 5: money to it. I don't think he's the type of 526 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 5: booster who like gets involved in the nitty gritty of 527 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 5: coaching hirings and firings, which would be fun. 528 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: I would enjoy one of those, certainly, But. 529 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 5: It's it's really hard to undersell how many like people 530 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 5: associated with a program, not just the one billionaire people 531 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 5: who have gone to Northwestern of the past, feel that 532 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 5: Pat Fitzgerald is like sort of the best of Northwestern, 533 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 5: you know, like he's a lifer there. 534 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 2: He embodies so many of these. 535 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 5: Things that we talk about, and I think we've seen 536 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 5: that with like a sort of well spring of people 537 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 5: jumping up to defend him first and foremost over this 538 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 5: increasing cascade of like allegations that things happened within his program. 539 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 5: And I just keep thinking about how that happens. So 540 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 5: often when there's these one of these college sports scandals, 541 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 5: you'll see people say, this could ever happen. This is 542 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 5: such a good guy, And it almost amazes because like 543 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 5: in the end, that always seems like the most damning 544 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 5: thing about the program, you know, like the way that 545 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 5: people blindly rush to support someone who's brought that athletic joy, 546 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 5: and then you look at it in the past tense, 547 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 5: having found out about what happened to the school, and 548 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 5: it kind of reveals this culture where one person's, you know, 549 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 5: way of doing things became more important than everything else 550 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 5: that people supposedly cared about. And I've just been weighed 551 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 5: that in my head, like over these past few days, 552 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 5: seeing so many people rush to rush to state their 553 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 5: opinion on something, and then the facts just keep coming out, 554 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 5: and the reports just keep coming out, and it becomes 555 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 5: increasingly hard to justify that sort of childlike heroism that 556 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 5: a lot of people are out Northwestern have had towards 557 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 5: Pat Fitzgerald for so long. 558 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 3: What is the split like right now? Obviously this is not. 559 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 4: A one size fits all and every Northwestern fan feels 560 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 4: the same way. But because he has been the program, 561 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 4: you can understand why a ton of fans would say, like, wait, 562 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 4: let's hear him out. He's done so much for the program, 563 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 4: Like why would he, you know, allow such a thing 564 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 4: to happen, Whereas a lot more Northwestern fans, it seems, 565 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 4: have read the pieces and said like he either knew 566 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 4: and it's awful, or either didn't know and that's awful 567 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 4: in its own way. What has been that the general 568 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 4: tenor of the fan base, especially and then please take 569 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 4: as long as you need, especially because we're not talking 570 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 4: about a winning program. We're not talking about a program 571 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 4: where you can say, look, you know, sometimes bad things happen, 572 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 4: but things are good. 573 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 3: We're winning, like, we can't mess this up. What has 574 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 3: the general mood been. 575 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 5: I think more people are definitely on the let's get 576 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 5: rid of this guy wagon at this point. I might 577 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 5: be closed off and following like a particularly online and 578 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 5: already had bad opinions about Northwestern football group. I almost 579 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 5: wonder if the reason we're hearing about this now is because, 580 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 5: like for a solid fifteen years, Northwestern wasn't having down 581 00:32:52,840 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 5: periods like this. We now we're hearing these stories from 582 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 5: people who were playing fifteen years ago and saying this 583 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 5: happened then Northwestern what are an unprecedented run of successful 584 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 5: pit Pat Fitzgerald's playing, and then another one shortly after 585 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 5: he became coach, and they were in Big Ten championship games. 586 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 5: And definitely it helps the fact that they've had back 587 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 5: to back losing seasons and they went one and eleven 588 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 5: last year like it made it. It definitely honestly, it 589 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 5: made it a little bit easier in my head to 590 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 5: justify like moving on with this person. And I've tried 591 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 5: to reckon with that in my head because like it's 592 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 5: it's not something that should be a factor at all, obviously, 593 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 5: but I think that comes to mind. And it also 594 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 5: feels like it's evidence that whatever Pat Fitzgerald supposed culture 595 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 5: brings to the program just hasn't been clicking. It's not 596 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 5: convincing good players to come to the team. You know, 597 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 5: you hate to get like so pragmatic with it, but 598 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 5: Pat Fitzgerald his credibility, even if he survived this hypothetically 599 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 5: would be forever shot. And I don't think players, I 600 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 5: don't think parents would send their kids to this program. 601 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 5: This is a guy again who says, you know, send 602 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 5: your kids to my program. They'll have good, clean American fun. 603 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,760 Speaker 5: It's a forty year decision, not a four year decision. 604 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 5: Is one of his favorites, Like, you're going here because 605 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 5: it will set you up for life, and you're going 606 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 5: to do things the right way, and all of that 607 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,879 Speaker 5: rings incredibly hollow when confronted with the idea that either 608 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 5: he knew about hazing and kept his mouth shut, or 609 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 5: that he doesn't know enough about his own program to 610 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 5: identify that hazing is going on. You can't believe the 611 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 5: other stuff he says if this is going I mean, 612 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 5: that's obviously a pretty like basic statement, but like you 613 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 5: can't buy into his cultive personality in a world where 614 00:34:58,400 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 5: this is happening. 615 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 1: Well what it makes it difficult, especially if, as he said, 616 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: follow along online, You've got sort of two camps, right, 617 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: there's one camp that's going to look at what the 618 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: investigation brought forward, which was that they couldn't find sufficient 619 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: evidence that Fitzgerald knew about the hazing. And I think 620 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: there's some people that are going to cling to that 621 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: and they say, well, this isn't fair for this guy 622 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 1: to go down with the ship if in fact he 623 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: didn't know, if in fact he wants to do better, 624 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: if in fact he wants to change the culture. But 625 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: as with all of these scandals, or at least with 626 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: most of them that we've seen, as you mentioned, Roger, 627 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,240 Speaker 1: at some point it just becomes too big a distraction 628 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: to be associated with the program, especially in a sport 629 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: like college football that is so driven by money and 630 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: boosters and fundraising and all these external forces that have 631 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: their hand in a program on some level. If none 632 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: of those folks want to be associated with the guy 633 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: at the top, whether he knew or not, that's the ballgame. 634 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 2: It feels untenable. 635 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,919 Speaker 5: The things that Pat Fitzgerald has been good at, even 636 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 5: in his time as a Northwestern even if you're just 637 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 5: looking at it totally pragmatically, the things that he has 638 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 5: been good at, he can't be good at anymore in 639 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 5: a world where this hazing scandal is something that happened 640 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 5: under his watch, whether he knew about it or not. 641 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 5: And it's a hard thing for a university to do 642 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 5: get rid of the only coach that your program has 643 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 5: ever been successful with. But they have to be working 644 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 5: through those kigs right now. They have to be figuring 645 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 5: out what's next. Ultimately, it's a football coach, and I 646 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 5: think they will have a football program and like they 647 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 5: will hire someone else, and it's something the school has 648 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 5: never done. But you're also sort of starting to think 649 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 5: that the way they've been doing things for a good 650 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 5: amount of time hasn't been perfect either. 651 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 4: It should be pointed out by the way that just 652 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 4: in terms of the on field results and I don't 653 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 4: argue with you that with cherld's the best coach they've 654 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 4: ever had. Obviously, the number of wins in the tenures 655 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 4: it sort of speaks for itself. But part of what 656 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,760 Speaker 4: has happened on the fields seems to be a direct 657 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 4: result of a specific assistant coach leaving the program that 658 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 4: the Northwestern defense was the side of the ball that 659 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 4: always held things up. And Pat Fitzgerald for as you know, 660 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 4: whatever his reputation was or has been, or maybe continues 661 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 4: to be to some, he hadn't figured out offense in 662 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 4: about a dozen years. Like it's been twelve years of 663 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 4: Northwestern not fielding a competitive offense essentially since like twenty eleven. 664 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 4: I want to say, I don't know if that was 665 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 4: Kane Colter Dan pursa way back then. And so it's 666 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 4: been a lot of you know, sub sixty nationally all 667 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 4: the way down to like one hundred and twenty seventh offenses, 668 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 4: which speaks to he has just been given a pass 669 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 4: football term. He has been given a pass to get 670 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 4: into bowls and have that be good enough. And perhaps 671 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 4: that is good enough for Northwestern, but it also begs 672 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 4: the question where would Northwestern hypothetically go from here if 673 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 4: and when they're hiring somebody new. 674 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 5: It's literally something they have not thought about since hiring 675 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 5: Randy Walker in the nineteen nineties. The chronology here is 676 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 5: Northwestern was never good until Pat Fitzgerald is a player 677 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 5: that was under Gary Barnett. He goes to Color out 678 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 5: of they hire Andy Walker. Randy Walker dies in the 679 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 5: offseason in two thousand and five, and they don't do 680 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 5: a coaching search. They promote Pat Fitzgerald as the guy 681 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 5: who was the face of the program as a player, 682 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 5: and they're hoping they could unite around him again as 683 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 5: a coach, and it happened, and they won more games 684 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 5: than they'd ever I mean, this guy was the winningest 685 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 5: coach in Northwestern history by the time he was forty years. 686 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,720 Speaker 2: Old, which is wild before. 687 00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 5: Most people get their chance to be a head coach 688 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 5: at all. There is like a feel that he was 689 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 5: lifetime higher by the time I left the school over 690 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 5: a decade ago, and I think that has led itself 691 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 5: to a period of stagnation. It seems like there are 692 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 5: no consequences for losses, and right now it seems like 693 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 5: this program was going to give him no consequences for 694 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 5: a hazing scandal, like a widespread hazing scandal corroborated by 695 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 5: an independent investigation. They were going to give him two 696 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 5: weeks of suspension. So at a time, after a certain 697 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 5: amount of time, he became bigger than everything else at 698 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 5: Northwestern and in subways, the results compared to compared to 699 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 5: history justify that. You know, Northwestern just did such a 700 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 5: strange place where they were forgotten for decades, like historically 701 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 5: probably should not have been in the Big Ten conference, 702 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 5: but they are, and they started picking up around the 703 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 5: time cash and college football became huge, and they're now 704 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 5: in the most profitable conference. They're making huge amounts of 705 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 5: money every year, and it's it sort of feels like 706 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,800 Speaker 5: Pat Fitzgerald has justified that because he's like one games 707 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 5: instead of losing thirty four in a row, which is 708 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 5: something that Northwestern very much did do at one point 709 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 5: in time. 710 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 2: They lost thirty. 711 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,720 Speaker 5: Four football games in a row, which is really impressive 712 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 5: when you think very difficult to do. Yeah, yeah, so 713 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 5: it might be thirty two. I'll need to look that up. 714 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 2: Okay, over thirty right, not good. 715 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 5: It was sort of this catch twenty two that developed 716 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 5: with him, where he represented this new era of not 717 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 5: accepting being bad at football, but at the same time, 718 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 5: we were asked to accept them being bad at football 719 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 5: when they go three and nine and one and eleven 720 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 5: and nothing happens. 721 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's it's one of those things. And you've 722 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 4: seen the video where he talks about the program not 723 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 4: tolerating hazing from way back when, and you think about 724 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 4: certain things that, look, I'm going to use the word meathead, 725 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 4: which is not appropriate, and you know it's it's it's 726 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 4: a term in football that's loaded whatever. 727 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 3: But you remember when. 728 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 4: I forget who they lost to, when he said, I 729 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 4: don't care what people on Twitter have to say. You 730 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 4: can email me. My email address is hashtag I don't 731 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 4: care stuff like that. We're like, man, he is almost 732 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 4: a caricature at times, and like for a school that, 733 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 4: you know, the bright academic reputation that Northwestern has, it 734 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 4: almost like weirdly doesn't square at times. I don't know 735 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 4: where I'm going with this. I'm just sort of thinking 736 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 4: out loud, but like, did he have that reputation of 737 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 4: being the like old old school guy with the big 738 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 4: shoulder pads at this place that is not known for 739 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 4: having that kind of history, has that always been the 740 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:09,280 Speaker 4: reputation where he's. 741 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 5: Just for sure okay, oh for sure, Like I mean 742 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 5: he would like make fun of the concept of like 743 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 5: statistics at numbers and analytics. 744 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:18,839 Speaker 3: Right. 745 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 5: Uh, what what did he call complete pure communism? 746 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 2: I think the r PO. I think he called the 747 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 2: r communism. 748 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,800 Speaker 5: It's it is strange to bring that like vibe into 749 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 5: a school that's uh famously nerdy. Also, he is the 750 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 5: only person who could really pull that off that like Gibbick, 751 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 5: where he's simultaneously like, you got to go to class 752 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 5: and also I don't think numbers are real and like 753 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 5: it's it's a thin line he walked, and it's one 754 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,879 Speaker 5: that so few people ever associated with Northwestern could pull 755 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 5: off credibly. I think some part of me wants to 756 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 5: say it's unsurprising that he would look the other way 757 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 5: at things like this. You know, he famously was involved 758 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 5: in Northwestern not having a union when the players tried 759 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 5: to unionize in twenty fourteen. He was he was strongly 760 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 5: against that and came out to say it. Some people 761 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 5: said he was union busting. He does have that reputation 762 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,879 Speaker 5: of that vibe of wanting things to be the way 763 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 5: they've always been. Ed when you hear about, you know, 764 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:41,240 Speaker 5: something like this potentially going on for his entire tenure 765 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 5: and him not saying about it that that persona of 766 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,919 Speaker 5: like trying to keep things the way they've always been. 767 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 2: It does sort of vibe with that. 768 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 4: Fair enough, Roger Sherman, The Ringer Daily Northwestern, thank you 769 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,399 Speaker 4: so much for your insight and end your time and 770 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 4: hopefully this ends in a sensical way. 771 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,399 Speaker 5: I would say like there's nothing good that can come 772 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,839 Speaker 5: out of it. By like first reaction was like they 773 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 5: should fire this person. His football team has not been good. 774 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 5: These are awful things to have overseen. But it's not 775 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 5: like this makes me happy. It's it's not like I 776 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,399 Speaker 5: would be I would feel better about everything if Pat 777 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,760 Speaker 5: Fitzgerald isn't there. It's not like I'll be more excited 778 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 5: for the twenty twenty three season opener against Rutgers. It's 779 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 5: it's just like it's it's what has to be done 780 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 5: because you can't support a program that abides this. 781 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,760 Speaker 4: Agree, thank you very much for all of your time 782 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 4: and hope to talk soon. 783 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:51,800 Speaker 1: Thanks, Roger. 784 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 2: Support student journalists, yeah, there you go. Support student journalists absolutely. 785 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: Okay, there you go, Roger Sherman. The I think more importantly, 786 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 1: long time front of the show, we've known Roger forever, 787 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: great buy Northwestern alum. Clearly conflicted, I think in his tone, 788 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 1: not about what he thought the solution would ultimately. No, 789 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: not not from that standpoint. But it is a tough 790 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,320 Speaker 1: thing to kind of square. It's hard to kind of 791 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 1: get your head around this, and when it happens, especially 792 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 1: to a school close to you, I know firsthand. 793 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:26,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, of course it. 794 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: Can be a very kind of awkward place to be 795 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: emotionally being so college football means a lot to each 796 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: of us on that level. But again, just to reiterate, 797 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: Pat Fitzgerald out at Northwestern. More details to follow as 798 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:41,319 Speaker 1: we get them. We'll do our best to try and 799 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 1: keep everyone up to speed. Dan, you're going to be 800 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 1: off for a few days. We've got some more content 801 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,360 Speaker 1: coming down the pipeline here, so we'll do our best 802 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: to stay on top of this via all of our 803 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: social channels. VI overballers dot com. If you're going out 804 00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 1: to v R B A L e rs dot com, 805 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 1: that's our Patreon. That's where we offer bonus content and 806 00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 1: some behind the scenes access as well. Yeah, discord Server 807 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,879 Speaker 1: is popping off at the moment talking about this. There's 808 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,800 Speaker 1: a lot to discuss in the college football world. 809 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 3: Correct, absolutely, Daniel. 810 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 1: Enjoy your trip and we'll catch you on the flip side, 811 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 1: all right. Appreciate it for that guy over there, my 812 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: good friend Dan Rubenstein, form myself, Tie Hildebrand. 813 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 2: Will talk to y'all soon. 814 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:22,280 Speaker 3: Stay song, peace,