WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Argo 16 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.040 Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by micro pigs 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.800 wearing those tiny little rubber boots. Instead, it's brought to 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:09.760 you by dogs wearing tiny rubber boots. No, just kidding, 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:11.720 but you might get to meet something like that at 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:15.840 crime conen where there will be actual sniffer dogs that 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:19.000 you can meet, which is so cool. We're gonna be there, 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:22.000 lots of other podcasts are gonna be there. Um, you 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:24.840 can go to crime Con dot com and if you 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:27.960 buy tickets and you use sideways twenty the promo code, 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.560 you can get off your tickets, which is pretty awesome. Um. 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:37.080 It's gonna be June nine through in Daniapolis at the JW. Marriott. 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:41.400 So join us crime Con dot com and sideways twenty 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:47.480 is that code for you to get off? And thanks? 0:00:47.479 --> 0:01:00.640 Thinking Sideways I don't know still is and things to 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:05.440 be simply don't know the answa to Well, Hi there 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:09.600 and welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. Um, I'm 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.759 your host, Joe, joined this week as always by Devon 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:18.000 and Steve, and of course, as usual, we're going to 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.760 talk about another really awesome mystery. Yeah yeah, this is 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.039 I sort of poaching on Steve's territory. Here, we're gonna 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:27.840 talk about a crashed airplane. That's usually that's usually what 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:31.039 Steve does our airplane mysteries. But you take boats, I 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.480 take airplanes. You do this all right? The field is open. 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:37.319 Next week sinking a ship? Yeah, I think he's going 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.320 to cover a submarine mystery. You're going to think a ship. Okay, 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.199 I didn't say that. Okay, yeah, that is our mystery. 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:48.040 What sect that aircraft carry? Your next week? Well, okay, 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:52.400 back to our mystery here. Our plane that crashed was 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.960 a World War two vintage C forty seven Dakota airplane. 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:00.400 Dakota was actually known as also the Skytrain, which is 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:09.560 an awesome name. Skytrain, Skytrain, sky Tree Okay, sorry, sorry 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.720 lost it? Where was I? Okay? So, but then the U. S. 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:16.920 Government gave about two thousands of these things to the 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:19.359 to the British and also the Commonwealth countries during World 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:21.600 War Two on the Least program, and for some reason, 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.120 those planes, which as far as I know, we're the same, 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:28.040 got renamed the Dakota, which is nothing against Dakota. That's 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.520 a cool name too, but not quite as awesome as skytrain. 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.359 You did you see how they think that came about. Yeah, 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:37.600 it was. It was actually an acronym country condensation of 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.800 some other words. Yeah. Yeah, so, but anyway, we don't care. 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.080 It's a Dakota. Well that's good enough. Our plane crashed 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.240 not too long after takeoff. I'm thinking a couple of minutes, 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.840 maybe a little more, in November nineteen seventy three. And 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:52.880 it was not just any old plane. It was a 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:56.800 spy plane. That's why you're doing this, because it's got 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:59.079 spy in it. Oh no, wait a second, I'm sorry. 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:02.480 I just read there it's a spy plants okay, and 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.960 and okay, spy plane. Ah. And then it was code 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:10.280 named ARGO sixteen, which I think is kind of a 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.200 cool name. I like the Argo sixteen. But that's that 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.880 really was his code name. It's definitely not that Ben 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:19.280 Affleck movie. No, it's not Argo. Different thing, entirely different 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:21.800 part of the world. Even Yeah, it's not that far 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:25.480 away from Iran. Yeah, okay, but like I said, it 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.440 was a spy plane. It was operated by the Italian 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.960 s i D, which is short for Military Intelligence and 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.200 Security Service in English and something else. They use different 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.600 words in Italian for some reason. Yeah, I don't get 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.600 that but alright, but also by the CIA. Apparently it's 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:43.200 some sort of joint product project. Apparently it also had 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:47.160 a multitude of various black out missions, but its primary 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.160 purpose was essentially to be a big flying radar detector, 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:53.360 at least ostensibly if I can steal the word from you, Yeah, 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:55.960 I mean, as long as you're using it correctly exactly. 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.120 Uh So, it's mission on November twenty three, nineteen seventy 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.320 three was to fly up and down the coast of 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:05.840 Yugoslavia over the Adriatic Sea, monitoring radar emissions. And I'll 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:07.480 leave it. I'm sure we have at least one spook 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.480 listening to to us. He's gonna email and correct me 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.360 on this. But essentially, what these planes do is they 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.160 want to know about changes in radar behavior. So if 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:18.480 there's a flurry of activity, well maybe that means something 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.160 we can try to like suss that out. Or maybe 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.080 they're building new radar installations, Well maybe that means something too. 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.640 Maybe they're building an airbase somewhere and god knows what, 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.000 and best of all, a whole new type of radar. 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:32.600 Uh if they detect one of those, like let's say 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.720 they installed a new Soviet air defense system for example, 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:38.160 that's gonna have a radar that's gonna be attached to it. 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.080 NATO is probably gonna want to know about that, right, Yeah, 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:43.400 And of course they're gonna want to test the radar, 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.680 and really they have to. And of course you want 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:50.720 to have an asset somewhere, whether it's a plane, submarines, something, 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:52.600 And that's one of the things submarines don't do. A 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:54.800 lot of people don't realize that is they just hang 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.480 out on detected off enemy shores and just sniff radars 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:00.760 and stuff like that. Just chill underwater, I just search, chill, 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:02.400 I keep an eye on things and just see what, 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:05.560 you know, what radars they're lighting up and whatnot. But 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:07.920 according to what I've heard, Argo sixteen was a little 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.120 bit more than the radar detector. Uh, it did some 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.960 other special ops missions. And it makes a little bit 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:15.600 of sense because you can't do the same thing every 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.719 day with a spy plane, because then the Yugoslavians get 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:20.800 used to the idea that Argo sixteen is going to 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:24.039 be hanging out off its shores between the hours of 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:27.400 two and five pm every day. Yeah, and so well, 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:29.480 they're just not gonna send you anything useful if you 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:31.080 do that, So you gotta mix it up a little bit, 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:33.480 or they're gonna spoof you even worse. They can do 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.200 that too. Yeah, So so they mix it up a 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.880 little bit for Urgo sixteen apparently, And so it was 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.719 sent out out missions to transport armaments, ferried special ops 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.920 guys around Italy, and it gave the occasional PFLP terrorist 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.000 a ride to Libya. But more on that later. I'm 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:56.880 gonna ask what is PFLP And actually, uh, PFLP has 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:01.240 prop Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestines PLO. Uh. 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.120 They sort of became affiliated with the pl later. It's 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.720 a complicated Okay, Yeah, that whole area is really complicated, 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:10.320 And I know I'm probably gonna pepper you with a 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.600 whole bunch of questions. Yeah, I didn't even know if 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.599 the p f LP is still around. Actually, Devin, what's question? 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:24.200 Are they actual terrorists like operating outside of the log suicide? Yah? 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:29.800 The PFLP was, Are they like warfare? They were more 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.080 more terrorists. They were they were sort of oriented towards 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.960 hijacking airplanes. I would say that compared to what we 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.359 call terrorists today, they were they were pretty civilized, but 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:42.760 still created terror to inflict gentleman, Yeah, to achieve a goal. 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:44.960 They I just wanted to make sure that we weren't. 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.360 But like, for example, they hijacked four planes in September 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:51.480 nine seventy, which I might mentioned a little bit later on, 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.200 the hijacked from Europe, took him to Jordan and parked 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:58.360 him in this this desert airfield called Dawson Field, where 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:01.080 they let most of them go, left about sixty of 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:04.640 them hostage for a long time, and uh and then 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.039 eventually evacuated them, blew the planes up. And this was 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:10.480 a huge, huge deal. I mean, this was considered you know, 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:15.360 ultra horrible terrorism, but all the hostages eventually eventually were 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.920 released unharmed, and so by the standards of today, well 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.240 that was pretty damn civilized. Room. Yeah, I mean, yeah, 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:23.320 nobody got killed. I just wanted to make sure that 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:27.720 we weren't just calling you know, we were that's fine. 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.400 Well they were certainly called terrorists at the time, but 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:32.720 you know, but they almost make me nostalgic for the 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:36.000 old days of terrorism, to be honest with you. Okay, yeah, okay, 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:39.440 Well anyway, so our back to Urgust sixteen, it was 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.920 based in Italy. I have a question, Joe, Yeah, why 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:45.679 is the script? Have a question for me to ask? 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:50.320 What is Italy? Yeah, there you go. It's a place 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:55.360 where they keep the Italians, some of us have escaped. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:57.920 Uh so Italy is a country on the south side 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:04.320 of Europe. It smells like a boot like I'm sorry, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.840 I misread the script. I'm sorry. Okay, So it's shaped 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:10.160 like a boot. Okay, So that's Italy. Um. And of 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.000 course it is right across the Adriatic Sea from Yugoslavia. 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:15.080 And oh, by the way, this is our mystery taliant 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:17.800 for this week. The Adriatic Sea has also been proposed 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:19.840 as one of the many, many possible sites for the 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:24.080 lost city of Atlantis. And I'm not lying. So somebody 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:27.840 has seriously proposed the Adriatic Sea. The Atlantis is down 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.760 there somewhere. Um. And of course, along with like twenty 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.040 four thousand other possible sites, there's a lot of them 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.920 out there. Uh. And And of course OURGO sixteen wasn't 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.800 just anywhere in Italy. It was stationed in Venice. Yeah, 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:41.480 which I don't know you've been in Venice, I have Yeah, 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.400 what do you think it was nice. It's smell kind 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:47.720 of like a boot, kind of like a boot. Really okay, 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:52.040 giant rats? How big are we talking about? German shepherds? Yeah? 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:59.480 Really wow? Yeah, remember that really awesome. But yeah, I 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:01.040 hear Venice. It's pretty you know, you know you never 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.720 see those postcards, do you know? I know I've I've 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.400 seen pictures. It looks pretty free on awesome' I gotta 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.280 go there someday soon. But anyway, for those of you 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:12.840 haven't heard of Venice, it is the city that floats, 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.000 and actually it doesn't quite float it, but it's kind 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:19.920 of actually yeah, yeah, the city that almost floats. And 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.280 believe it or not, Venice has an airport, which I, 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:24.520 believe it or not, is not actually in the floaty 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:26.440 part of the city. It's about three miles north on 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.600 dry land. Can we use that term regularly from here 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.720 on it? Yeah? Yeah, I like that. Yeah, And so 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:35.200 the actual city of Venice is, of course much more 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:37.800 than just a little floaty part. It's a bunch of 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.200 most of us on land dry land. At seven thirty 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.880 am November twenty three, Argo sixteen took off from Venice 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.480 Airport with a crew of four and the plane was 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.719 a lot for around two minutes heading west, and I'm 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:53.560 assuming that because the standard climb rate for the d 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:55.400 C three, as far as I can find out, it's 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.400 about tweet a minute. It sounds about it, right, Yeah, 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:00.880 And so the plane was reported to have been an 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:05.320 outstreade of about feet when something went wrong, So that 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:07.640 gives them a little over two minutes in the air. Sorry, 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.199 you may have said this, but I may have missed it. 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:14.520 The d C threees, Yeah, is what Argo sixteen is? Yeah, 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:16.920 I said, I said it was a Sea forty seven. 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.440 So let's clear that up. The the d C three 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:21.920 was originally the plane the plane that the Sea forty 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:23.719 seven was based on. The Sea forty seven is a 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:27.640 military version of the d C three, and there's variants 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.480 that have passenger door. There's variances have a rear door, 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:32.840 there's variances that have the toe hooks on the rear 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:37.439 to pull gliders. There was a whole slew of versions. Sorry, 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:39.200 I just charged you use the term for a plane 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.520 that I hadn't heard yet. Yeah. So the d C 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.680 three Sea forty seven kind of the same thing, and 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:48.480 it was a really reliable plane and they made tons 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.120 of them. My understanding, about sixteen thousand overall were built. Yeah, 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:55.040 a lot of them were, Yeah, and about ten thousands 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:57.000 or so those were for the military as a sea 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.959 forty seven and of course Urgo sixteen about World War 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.079 two vintage, which would make it about what three decades 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:07.880 old around the time of cars, roughly, but assuming it 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.000 was well maintained, it should have been totally reliable in 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.440 nineteen seventy three. Planes aren't quite like cars. As long 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.320 as they're maintained, they can last a long long time. Yeah. Yeah, 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:18.559 I mean, you know, as long as the engines are 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:23.959 maintained and it doesn't suffer any major mechanical malfunctions that 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:28.240 they're typically serviceable. Well, yeah, for a long time. Argo 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:32.040 sixteen took off reaching outde like I said, of about feet, 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.280 something went wrong which caused it to suddenly lose altitude 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:39.080 really quickly, and it crashed in an industrial park about 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.240 six miles west of the airport. Yeah. And they do 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.280 have industrial parks in Venice apparently, Yeah, everybody does. You 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.040 don't seeah, you don't see those in the movies. Those 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:49.040 are also not on the postcards. They're not on the 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.320 floaty parts, so they don't count as much exactly. So 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:57.319 there's our mystery. What caused Argo sixteen to augur in? Yeah, 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.520 well that's a that's a quick little mystery. So this 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.800 is gonna be short, short episode. I totally short. In fact, 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:07.640 it's we're almost and then uh yeah, five more pages 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:13.360 of script. Three more. Yeah, we're fun alright. So theories, uh, 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.400 and of course, get you guys, feel free to chip 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:17.360 in with any theories that you might have. These are 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:18.760 just a few of the ones that are out there. 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:21.640 I've got the book. We're going to sell that thing. 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.360 I swear to God, we'll ation it off somewhere. It's 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.400 taken three and a half, almost four years, and I'm 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:29.199 about three quarters of the way through. We get a 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.959 while ago. Well yeah, just people just scribble more in it. Yeah, 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.800 just I'll just write stuff and then sharpe it out. Yeah, 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:38.960 and I'll leave it with me and I will I 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:41.520 will scribble all kinds of stuff in it. So yeah, 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:43.440 by the time you get here next week, it'll be 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:48.360 mostly full. So first, what's our first first theory is 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:52.600 pilot error, which was the conclusion of the original inquiry. 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:54.560 They of course, they had an inquiry, of course, and 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:58.240 had uh, the inquiry, of course, has been reopened more 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:00.320 than once. This has actually been bad at a about 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.600 and talked about an Italian politics for quite a long 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.360 time now. The crash of our six. Yeah, oh yeah, 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:07.760 it's it's a it's a big national thing. It's yeah, 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:12.280 it's a big controversy there. Yeah, but the original inquiry 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.199 concluded pilot error. And this is kind of a tough 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:19.200 one because frankly, almost all the documents for this mystery 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.360 are in Italian and Google translate. While it's not bad, 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.440 it's not exactly ideal. The other problem with all the 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:30.920 documents is that they have slowly disappeared over time. That 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:33.800 is one of the biggest biggest complaints I have seen 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.160 in the reading. When you know, when you go through, 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.920 it's like there's all these officials who want to investigate 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:45.080 and are furious because stuff is just literally missing. Uh 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.079 what's going on with that? Huh? Yeah? Makes you well, 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:53.520 that's why everybody, see, Yeah, that's that's why this is 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:55.760 such a juicy little mystery. Yeah, we should have nicknamed 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.240 this the C and C Music Factory apparently, because yeah, 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.120 everybody's been guilty, so there must be a guilty secret. 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.240 I'm a little skeptical of the pilot air theory, although 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:08.520 I I could see, I could sort of see some 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:10.920 ways that it could happen. Maybe. And by the way, 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:14.280 I forgot to mention our pilot's name. He goes Anano Boreo, 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.240 and I hope I'm not mispronouncing that. Devin your Italian. 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:21.240 You pronounce it okay, sounds good. Uh. He was a 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:25.520 very experienced pilot. The plane did not crash on takeoff, Okay. 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.400 So that's where that's where pilot air can really come in. 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:30.480 It's like, you screw up, I forgot to pull up 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:32.680 quick enough or whatever. You overrun the you know, I 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:34.680 mean things like that. He didn't do that. He was 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:39.480 well off and supposedly kind of safely up in the air. Yeah, 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.800 I mean yeah, I mean so, I'm not sure what 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.440 he could have done, but there are a few possible 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:49.720 ways that let's suppose that the engines quit total loss 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.480 of power. And let's suppose he turned the plane around 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:54.320 and he headed back to the airport, which is what 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.720 I would do, and and he was hoping to be 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:00.560 able to glide back and get landed, and posing he 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.520 maybe chose the wrong glide pass. Something a bit too steep, 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:05.760 then you can see where it might have fallen a 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.120 little bit short of the objective and crashed short of 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.880 the airport. So I want to ask a question on that. Yeah, 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:14.440 I haven't been able to determine this, and I don't 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:15.800 know if you have. I mean, I read all this 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:19.240 stuff about the fact that the plane crashed, it skipped 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.400 off a building and then it ran into the front 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:24.400 of another building as when it crashed and caught on fire, 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:29.160 obviously enough. But what I could never tell is which 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:33.600 direction was it headed when it made that impact. That 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:38.640 should have been heading northish to for for its intended route. 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.520 So but if it was, if it crashed and was 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.120 heading south, that would you know make sense based on 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.920 what you're saying. Yeah, I do not, to be honest, 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.320 I'd really like to know that too. Again, the stuff 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:50.920 that's out there, at least the stuff that I can 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.920 read or get translated by Google, doesn't really tell you. 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:58.760 A lot says basically went up, something happened, they plummeted 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:00.960 to the ground and crashed, and then they cover nothing 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.280 but the political are in fighting that happens after that. 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:06.640 That's what I came across. Yeah, I could, I could 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.040 totally be something like, well, they flew up, they past, 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.400 they flew past the industrial park by always, and then 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.560 turned around and came back, because that's actually the kind 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:17.360 of the direction they needed to go for their mission, 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.560 which was over the Adriatic Sea. It's you know, it's 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:22.000 off to the east, so I can see what they 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:26.400 want west, turned around, coming back, something happens and then bang, yeah, 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.560 but we don't so we don't know what direction it 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.120 was traveling when it impacted the ground. Now, ok, we 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.560 don't know that. Okay, it's one of those things. There's 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:37.960 a lot, a lot of the details on this stuff 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.200 are kind of skimpy, unfortunately, because the documents keep disappearing. 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:45.480 Uh huh, that's frustrating. Uh. But as far as him 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.880 choosing the wrong lightpath and missing his objective, that seems 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.000 like kind of a bonehead of mistake. If he was 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.560 that experienced of a pilot, well, and I'm you know, 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:55.960 I could actually see though, I could see a guy 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.680 being very confident and he's going to get these engines restarted. 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.800 So he spends let's say thirty or forty seconds longer 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:06.879 than he should trying to get the engines. What you 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:11.280 were saying in this in this supposed scenario, died, he's 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:14.840 trying to get him restarted, and by spending too long 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:18.520 on that, he loses that window of opportunity to get 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:22.840 himself spun about and on a good path heading back. Yeah. 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.440 Or you know, it could be too that he actually 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.600 was a really selfless guy and that he chose to 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.720 crash into an industrial park because it's less populated than 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:38.480 a residential area. So maybe you crashed it there on purpose. Yeah, 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.280 maybe we realized, Yeah, did you look at the aerials 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.760 of that place. Yeah, I mean, it's not not densely populated, 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:46.480 and this is like you know, the venice we know, 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:52.600 which is pretty densit, right, So I questioned, that's all. Yeah, Well, 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.480 let's let's get back from that. Let's let's look at 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:58.040 another couple of options for pilot air. Another one would 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.760 be a stall with a tail spin. So you guys 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.840 on the tail spin is right, yeah yeah, spinning yeah yeah, 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.879 horizontal to the ground by the tail yeah like yeah, um, 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.120 and actually usually kind of vertical of the ground, kind 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.760 of like headed towards the ground and spinning around yeah, 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.040 like you say. And then by the tail yeah, cork 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:20.480 screwing what kind of cork screwing down? Yeah, and uh, 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.280 this is something I learned how to do in flight simulator. Actually, 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.159 you go up until you go up till your stall, 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:26.720 and then put the rudder on one way or the 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:28.480 other and then you'll just sort of go over to 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.840 one side and start spinning. And it's pretty easy to 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:38.800 handle them flight simulators. Yeah, you are never piloting us anywhere. No, No, 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.320 I probably not a good idea. But the airplane was, 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:44.600 as far as I know, still gaining altitude, so I 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.919 could see where you know, when you're getting altitude, you're 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.840 gonna be going slower than just flying level and straight right. 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.520 Maybe possible the pilot and copilot didn't realize that they 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.720 were going slower kind of than then they were heading 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.000 towards the stall. Maybe that maybe their stall indicator was broken, 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.360 which is not unheard of. Uh, and supposing to say 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.320 the pilot was putting the plane into a turn and 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:09.320 then just write about them the plane stalls while he 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.639 winds up a tailspin, which are as I said, generally 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.400 recoverable as long as you have enough altitude to work 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:19.000 with the ground. Yeah. Yeah, because stunt flyers do them. 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:20.520 All the time, And of course I did in flight 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.280 simulator and it works out fine for me, but I 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:26.560 usually like a big margin, even in flight simulator. But 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.200 from what I read on the interwebs, and and yes, 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:31.359 of course there are there's at least one web forum 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.399 to vote it to nothing other than flying the d 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.360 C three of course, of course, and lots of good 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.280 information out there. But according to these guys at d 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.439 C three, slash C forty seven doesn't actually recover so 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:47.080 well from tailspins. It's an oddly shaped plane. Yeah, in 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:50.040 terms of its proportions, just like in the script, he says, 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:55.879 and they're not recommended. Yeah, yeah, yeah they are. Yeah. 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.720 I mean this this plane is it is one third 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.240 wider on its wings than it is long, because it's 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:07.400 sixty three ft long, and it's ninety five ft across 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:10.000 from wing tip to wing tip. For folks on the 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.400 other side, that's nineteen meters by twenty nine meters. So 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.800 it's I can see how that would be rather ungainly 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.160 and difficult to pull out of a spin. Yeah, definitely, 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.480 and it's of course, but but of course those big 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:24.639 old wings could generate a lot of lips. That's what 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:26.760 they're for Yeah, and that's why the d C three 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:28.920 was so great. It could it could it could land 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.320 in short little spaces and stuff like that, and it's 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:33.200 really good for all that kind of stuff, you know, 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.720 a very versatile plane. There's still some around actually even 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.080 today flying. There are a few left. Yeah. Actually, we 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:41.880 used to have one right here in Portland at arms. 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.080 Did you ever see that thing? No? I didn't. Yeah, 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:46.440 years ago with the old arms up by the Zoo, 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:48.520 they had a d C three on public display there 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:51.920 for many many years. I remember that. You remember that one? Yeah? Yeah, 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:53.679 And unfortunately when they moved down to the river they 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:55.680 got rid of it, which kind of Actually, I'm still 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:59.240 kind of angry about that. That was really cool. And 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:01.600 I'm sure they sold it to somebody who's going to 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:03.680 restore it if they haven't already. Is it not at 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:09.280 the Aviation and Space Museum? I don't know. Maybe I 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:10.960 would think that's where they'd send it. Yeah, yeah, I 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:12.800 mean hopefully they didn't send, like to sell it to 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:16.640 a scrap yard. If you would think not, let's pray 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:19.560