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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways I don't know still is and things to
Speaker 1: be simply don't know the answa to Well, Hi there
Speaker 1: and welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. Um, I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Joe, joined this week as always by Devon
Speaker 1: and Steve, and of course, as usual, we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about another really awesome mystery. Yeah yeah, this is
Speaker 1: I sort of poaching on Steve's territory. Here, we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about a crashed airplane. That's usually that's usually what
Speaker 1: Steve does our airplane mysteries. But you take boats, I
Speaker 1: take airplanes. You do this all right? The field is open.
Speaker 1: Next week sinking a ship? Yeah, I think he's going
Speaker 1: to cover a submarine mystery. You're going to think a ship. Okay,
Speaker 1: I didn't say that. Okay, yeah, that is our mystery.
Speaker 1: What sect that aircraft carry? Your next week? Well, okay,
Speaker 1: back to our mystery here. Our plane that crashed was
Speaker 1: a World War two vintage C forty seven Dakota airplane.
Speaker 1: Dakota was actually known as also the Skytrain, which is
Speaker 1: an awesome name. Skytrain, Skytrain, sky Tree Okay, sorry, sorry
Speaker 1: lost it? Where was I? Okay? So, but then the U. S.
Speaker 1: Government gave about two thousands of these things to the
Speaker 1: to the British and also the Commonwealth countries during World
Speaker 1: War Two on the Least program, and for some reason,
Speaker 1: those planes, which as far as I know, we're the same,
Speaker 1: got renamed the Dakota, which is nothing against Dakota. That's
Speaker 1: a cool name too, but not quite as awesome as skytrain.
Speaker 1: You did you see how they think that came about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was. It was actually an acronym country condensation of
Speaker 1: some other words. Yeah. Yeah, so, but anyway, we don't care.
Speaker 1: It's a Dakota. Well that's good enough. Our plane crashed
Speaker 1: not too long after takeoff. I'm thinking a couple of minutes,
Speaker 1: maybe a little more, in November nineteen seventy three. And
Speaker 1: it was not just any old plane. It was a
Speaker 1: spy plane. That's why you're doing this, because it's got
Speaker 1: spy in it. Oh no, wait a second, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I just read there it's a spy plants okay, and
Speaker 1: and okay, spy plane. Ah. And then it was code
Speaker 1: named ARGO sixteen, which I think is kind of a
Speaker 1: cool name. I like the Argo sixteen. But that's that
Speaker 1: really was his code name. It's definitely not that Ben
Speaker 1: Affleck movie. No, it's not Argo. Different thing, entirely different
Speaker 1: part of the world. Even Yeah, it's not that far
Speaker 1: away from Iran. Yeah, okay, but like I said, it
Speaker 1: was a spy plane. It was operated by the Italian
Speaker 1: s i D, which is short for Military Intelligence and
Speaker 1: Security Service in English and something else. They use different
Speaker 1: words in Italian for some reason. Yeah, I don't get
Speaker 1: that but alright, but also by the CIA. Apparently it's
Speaker 1: some sort of joint product project. Apparently it also had
Speaker 1: a multitude of various black out missions, but its primary
Speaker 1: purpose was essentially to be a big flying radar detector,
Speaker 1: at least ostensibly if I can steal the word from you, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, as long as you're using it correctly exactly.
Speaker 1: Uh So, it's mission on November twenty three, nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: three was to fly up and down the coast of
Speaker 1: Yugoslavia over the Adriatic Sea, monitoring radar emissions. And I'll
Speaker 1: leave it. I'm sure we have at least one spook
Speaker 1: listening to to us. He's gonna email and correct me
Speaker 1: on this. But essentially, what these planes do is they
Speaker 1: want to know about changes in radar behavior. So if
Speaker 1: there's a flurry of activity, well maybe that means something
Speaker 1: we can try to like suss that out. Or maybe
Speaker 1: they're building new radar installations, Well maybe that means something too.
Speaker 1: Maybe they're building an airbase somewhere and god knows what,
Speaker 1: and best of all, a whole new type of radar.
Speaker 1: Uh if they detect one of those, like let's say
Speaker 1: they installed a new Soviet air defense system for example,
Speaker 1: that's gonna have a radar that's gonna be attached to it.
Speaker 1: NATO is probably gonna want to know about that, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And of course they're gonna want to test the radar,
Speaker 1: and really they have to. And of course you want
Speaker 1: to have an asset somewhere, whether it's a plane, submarines, something,
Speaker 1: And that's one of the things submarines don't do. A
Speaker 1: lot of people don't realize that is they just hang
Speaker 1: out on detected off enemy shores and just sniff radars
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Just chill underwater, I just search, chill,
Speaker 1: I keep an eye on things and just see what,
Speaker 1: you know, what radars they're lighting up and whatnot. But
Speaker 1: according to what I've heard, Argo sixteen was a little
Speaker 1: bit more than the radar detector. Uh, it did some
Speaker 1: other special ops missions. And it makes a little bit
Speaker 1: of sense because you can't do the same thing every
Speaker 1: day with a spy plane, because then the Yugoslavians get
Speaker 1: used to the idea that Argo sixteen is going to
Speaker 1: be hanging out off its shores between the hours of
Speaker 1: two and five pm every day. Yeah, and so well,
Speaker 1: they're just not gonna send you anything useful if you
Speaker 1: do that, So you gotta mix it up a little bit,
Speaker 1: or they're gonna spoof you even worse. They can do
Speaker 1: that too. Yeah, So so they mix it up a
Speaker 1: little bit for Urgo sixteen apparently, And so it was
Speaker 1: sent out out missions to transport armaments, ferried special ops
Speaker 1: guys around Italy, and it gave the occasional PFLP terrorist
Speaker 1: a ride to Libya. But more on that later. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna ask what is PFLP And actually, uh, PFLP has
Speaker 1: prop Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestines PLO. Uh.
Speaker 1: They sort of became affiliated with the pl later. It's
Speaker 1: a complicated Okay, Yeah, that whole area is really complicated,
Speaker 1: And I know I'm probably gonna pepper you with a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of questions. Yeah, I didn't even know if
Speaker 1: the p f LP is still around. Actually, Devin, what's question?
Speaker 1: Are they actual terrorists like operating outside of the log suicide? Yah?
Speaker 1: The PFLP was, Are they like warfare? They were more
Speaker 1: more terrorists. They were they were sort of oriented towards
Speaker 1: hijacking airplanes. I would say that compared to what we
Speaker 1: call terrorists today, they were they were pretty civilized, but
Speaker 1: still created terror to inflict gentleman, Yeah, to achieve a goal.
Speaker 1: They I just wanted to make sure that we weren't.
Speaker 1: But like, for example, they hijacked four planes in September
Speaker 1: nine seventy, which I might mentioned a little bit later on,
Speaker 1: the hijacked from Europe, took him to Jordan and parked
Speaker 1: him in this this desert airfield called Dawson Field, where
Speaker 1: they let most of them go, left about sixty of
Speaker 1: them hostage for a long time, and uh and then
Speaker 1: eventually evacuated them, blew the planes up. And this was
Speaker 1: a huge, huge deal. I mean, this was considered you know,
Speaker 1: ultra horrible terrorism, but all the hostages eventually eventually were
Speaker 1: released unharmed, and so by the standards of today, well
Speaker 1: that was pretty damn civilized. Room. Yeah, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: nobody got killed. I just wanted to make sure that
Speaker 1: we weren't just calling you know, we were that's fine.
Speaker 1: Well they were certainly called terrorists at the time, but
Speaker 1: you know, but they almost make me nostalgic for the
Speaker 1: old days of terrorism, to be honest with you. Okay, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: Well anyway, so our back to Urgust sixteen, it was
Speaker 1: based in Italy. I have a question, Joe, Yeah, why
Speaker 1: is the script? Have a question for me to ask?
Speaker 1: What is Italy? Yeah, there you go. It's a place
Speaker 1: where they keep the Italians, some of us have escaped. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh so Italy is a country on the south side
Speaker 1: of Europe. It smells like a boot like I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I misread the script. I'm sorry. Okay, So it's shaped
Speaker 1: like a boot. Okay, So that's Italy. Um. And of
Speaker 1: course it is right across the Adriatic Sea from Yugoslavia.
Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, this is our mystery taliant
Speaker 1: for this week. The Adriatic Sea has also been proposed
Speaker 1: as one of the many, many possible sites for the
Speaker 1: lost city of Atlantis. And I'm not lying. So somebody
Speaker 1: has seriously proposed the Adriatic Sea. The Atlantis is down
Speaker 1: there somewhere. Um. And of course, along with like twenty
Speaker 1: four thousand other possible sites, there's a lot of them
Speaker 1: out there. Uh. And And of course OURGO sixteen wasn't
Speaker 1: just anywhere in Italy. It was stationed in Venice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which I don't know you've been in Venice, I have Yeah,
Speaker 1: what do you think it was nice. It's smell kind
Speaker 1: of like a boot, kind of like a boot. Really okay,
Speaker 1: giant rats? How big are we talking about? German shepherds? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Really wow? Yeah, remember that really awesome. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: hear Venice. It's pretty you know, you know you never
Speaker 1: see those postcards, do you know? I know I've I've
Speaker 1: seen pictures. It looks pretty free on awesome' I gotta
Speaker 1: go there someday soon. But anyway, for those of you
Speaker 1: haven't heard of Venice, it is the city that floats,
Speaker 1: and actually it doesn't quite float it, but it's kind
Speaker 1: of actually yeah, yeah, the city that almost floats. And
Speaker 1: believe it or not, Venice has an airport, which I,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, is not actually in the floaty
Speaker 1: part of the city. It's about three miles north on
Speaker 1: dry land. Can we use that term regularly from here
Speaker 1: on it? Yeah? Yeah, I like that. Yeah, And so
Speaker 1: the actual city of Venice is, of course much more
Speaker 1: than just a little floaty part. It's a bunch of
Speaker 1: most of us on land dry land. At seven thirty
Speaker 1: am November twenty three, Argo sixteen took off from Venice
Speaker 1: Airport with a crew of four and the plane was
Speaker 1: a lot for around two minutes heading west, and I'm
Speaker 1: assuming that because the standard climb rate for the d
Speaker 1: C three, as far as I can find out, it's
Speaker 1: about tweet a minute. It sounds about it, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so the plane was reported to have been an
Speaker 1: outstreade of about feet when something went wrong, So that
Speaker 1: gives them a little over two minutes in the air. Sorry,
Speaker 1: you may have said this, but I may have missed it.
Speaker 1: The d C threees, Yeah, is what Argo sixteen is? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I said, I said it was a Sea forty seven.
Speaker 1: So let's clear that up. The the d C three
Speaker 1: was originally the plane the plane that the Sea forty
Speaker 1: seven was based on. The Sea forty seven is a
Speaker 1: military version of the d C three, and there's variants
Speaker 1: that have passenger door. There's variances have a rear door,
Speaker 1: there's variances that have the toe hooks on the rear
Speaker 1: to pull gliders. There was a whole slew of versions. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I just charged you use the term for a plane
Speaker 1: that I hadn't heard yet. Yeah. So the d C
Speaker 1: three Sea forty seven kind of the same thing, and
Speaker 1: it was a really reliable plane and they made tons
Speaker 1: of them. My understanding, about sixteen thousand overall were built. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of them were, Yeah, and about ten thousands
Speaker 1: or so those were for the military as a sea
Speaker 1: forty seven and of course Urgo sixteen about World War
Speaker 1: two vintage, which would make it about what three decades
Speaker 1: old around the time of cars, roughly, but assuming it
Speaker 1: was well maintained, it should have been totally reliable in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three. Planes aren't quite like cars. As long
Speaker 1: as they're maintained, they can last a long long time. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, as long as the engines are
Speaker 1: maintained and it doesn't suffer any major mechanical malfunctions that
Speaker 1: they're typically serviceable. Well, yeah, for a long time. Argo
Speaker 1: sixteen took off reaching outde like I said, of about feet,
Speaker 1: something went wrong which caused it to suddenly lose altitude
Speaker 1: really quickly, and it crashed in an industrial park about
Speaker 1: six miles west of the airport. Yeah. And they do
Speaker 1: have industrial parks in Venice apparently, Yeah, everybody does. You
Speaker 1: don't seeah, you don't see those in the movies. Those
Speaker 1: are also not on the postcards. They're not on the
Speaker 1: floaty parts, so they don't count as much exactly. So
Speaker 1: there's our mystery. What caused Argo sixteen to augur in? Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that's a that's a quick little mystery. So this
Speaker 1: is gonna be short, short episode. I totally short. In fact,
Speaker 1: it's we're almost and then uh yeah, five more pages
Speaker 1: of script. Three more. Yeah, we're fun alright. So theories, uh,
Speaker 1: and of course, get you guys, feel free to chip
Speaker 1: in with any theories that you might have. These are
Speaker 1: just a few of the ones that are out there.
Speaker 1: I've got the book. We're going to sell that thing.
Speaker 1: I swear to God, we'll ation it off somewhere. It's
Speaker 1: taken three and a half, almost four years, and I'm
Speaker 1: about three quarters of the way through. We get a
Speaker 1: while ago. Well yeah, just people just scribble more in it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just I'll just write stuff and then sharpe it out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'll leave it with me and I will I
Speaker 1: will scribble all kinds of stuff in it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: by the time you get here next week, it'll be
Speaker 1: mostly full. So first, what's our first first theory is
Speaker 1: pilot error, which was the conclusion of the original inquiry.
Speaker 1: They of course, they had an inquiry, of course, and
Speaker 1: had uh, the inquiry, of course, has been reopened more
Speaker 1: than once. This has actually been bad at a about
Speaker 1: and talked about an Italian politics for quite a long
Speaker 1: time now. The crash of our six. Yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a big national thing. It's yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a big controversy there. Yeah, but the original inquiry
Speaker 1: concluded pilot error. And this is kind of a tough
Speaker 1: one because frankly, almost all the documents for this mystery
Speaker 1: are in Italian and Google translate. While it's not bad,
Speaker 1: it's not exactly ideal. The other problem with all the
Speaker 1: documents is that they have slowly disappeared over time. That
Speaker 1: is one of the biggest biggest complaints I have seen
Speaker 1: in the reading. When you know, when you go through,
Speaker 1: it's like there's all these officials who want to investigate
Speaker 1: and are furious because stuff is just literally missing. Uh
Speaker 1: what's going on with that? Huh? Yeah? Makes you well,
Speaker 1: that's why everybody, see, Yeah, that's that's why this is
Speaker 1: such a juicy little mystery. Yeah, we should have nicknamed
Speaker 1: this the C and C Music Factory apparently, because yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody's been guilty, so there must be a guilty secret.
Speaker 1: I'm a little skeptical of the pilot air theory, although
Speaker 1: I I could see, I could sort of see some
Speaker 1: ways that it could happen. Maybe. And by the way,
Speaker 1: I forgot to mention our pilot's name. He goes Anano Boreo,
Speaker 1: and I hope I'm not mispronouncing that. Devin your Italian.
Speaker 1: You pronounce it okay, sounds good. Uh. He was a
Speaker 1: very experienced pilot. The plane did not crash on takeoff, Okay.
Speaker 1: So that's where that's where pilot air can really come in.
Speaker 1: It's like, you screw up, I forgot to pull up
Speaker 1: quick enough or whatever. You overrun the you know, I
Speaker 1: mean things like that. He didn't do that. He was
Speaker 1: well off and supposedly kind of safely up in the air. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I mean so, I'm not sure what
Speaker 1: he could have done, but there are a few possible
Speaker 1: ways that let's suppose that the engines quit total loss
Speaker 1: of power. And let's suppose he turned the plane around
Speaker 1: and he headed back to the airport, which is what
Speaker 1: I would do, and and he was hoping to be
Speaker 1: able to glide back and get landed, and posing he
Speaker 1: maybe chose the wrong glide pass. Something a bit too steep,
Speaker 1: then you can see where it might have fallen a
Speaker 1: little bit short of the objective and crashed short of
Speaker 1: the airport. So I want to ask a question on that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to determine this, and I don't
Speaker 1: know if you have. I mean, I read all this
Speaker 1: stuff about the fact that the plane crashed, it skipped
Speaker 1: off a building and then it ran into the front
Speaker 1: of another building as when it crashed and caught on fire,
Speaker 1: obviously enough. But what I could never tell is which
Speaker 1: direction was it headed when it made that impact. That
Speaker 1: should have been heading northish to for for its intended route.
Speaker 1: So but if it was, if it crashed and was
Speaker 1: heading south, that would you know make sense based on
Speaker 1: what you're saying. Yeah, I do not, to be honest,
Speaker 1: I'd really like to know that too. Again, the stuff
Speaker 1: that's out there, at least the stuff that I can
Speaker 1: read or get translated by Google, doesn't really tell you.
Speaker 1: A lot says basically went up, something happened, they plummeted
Speaker 1: to the ground and crashed, and then they cover nothing
Speaker 1: but the political are in fighting that happens after that.
Speaker 1: That's what I came across. Yeah, I could, I could
Speaker 1: totally be something like, well, they flew up, they past,
Speaker 1: they flew past the industrial park by always, and then
Speaker 1: turned around and came back, because that's actually the kind
Speaker 1: of the direction they needed to go for their mission,
Speaker 1: which was over the Adriatic Sea. It's you know, it's
Speaker 1: off to the east, so I can see what they
Speaker 1: want west, turned around, coming back, something happens and then bang, yeah,
Speaker 1: but we don't so we don't know what direction it
Speaker 1: was traveling when it impacted the ground. Now, ok, we
Speaker 1: don't know that. Okay, it's one of those things. There's
Speaker 1: a lot, a lot of the details on this stuff
Speaker 1: are kind of skimpy, unfortunately, because the documents keep disappearing.
Speaker 1: Uh huh, that's frustrating. Uh. But as far as him
Speaker 1: choosing the wrong lightpath and missing his objective, that seems
Speaker 1: like kind of a bonehead of mistake. If he was
Speaker 1: that experienced of a pilot, well, and I'm you know,
Speaker 1: I could actually see though, I could see a guy
Speaker 1: being very confident and he's going to get these engines restarted.
Speaker 1: So he spends let's say thirty or forty seconds longer
Speaker 1: than he should trying to get the engines. What you
Speaker 1: were saying in this in this supposed scenario, died, he's
Speaker 1: trying to get him restarted, and by spending too long
Speaker 1: on that, he loses that window of opportunity to get
Speaker 1: himself spun about and on a good path heading back. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Or you know, it could be too that he actually
Speaker 1: was a really selfless guy and that he chose to
Speaker 1: crash into an industrial park because it's less populated than
Speaker 1: a residential area. So maybe you crashed it there on purpose. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe we realized, Yeah, did you look at the aerials
Speaker 1: of that place. Yeah, I mean, it's not not densely populated,
Speaker 1: and this is like you know, the venice we know,
Speaker 1: which is pretty densit, right, So I questioned, that's all. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: let's let's get back from that. Let's let's look at
Speaker 1: another couple of options for pilot air. Another one would
Speaker 1: be a stall with a tail spin. So you guys
Speaker 1: on the tail spin is right, yeah yeah, spinning yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: horizontal to the ground by the tail yeah like yeah, um,
Speaker 1: and actually usually kind of vertical of the ground, kind
Speaker 1: of like headed towards the ground and spinning around yeah,
Speaker 1: like you say. And then by the tail yeah, cork
Speaker 1: screwing what kind of cork screwing down? Yeah, and uh,
Speaker 1: this is something I learned how to do in flight simulator. Actually,
Speaker 1: you go up until you go up till your stall,
Speaker 1: and then put the rudder on one way or the
Speaker 1: other and then you'll just sort of go over to
Speaker 1: one side and start spinning. And it's pretty easy to
Speaker 1: handle them flight simulators. Yeah, you are never piloting us anywhere. No, No,
Speaker 1: I probably not a good idea. But the airplane was,
Speaker 1: as far as I know, still gaining altitude, so I
Speaker 1: could see where you know, when you're getting altitude, you're
Speaker 1: gonna be going slower than just flying level and straight right.
Speaker 1: Maybe possible the pilot and copilot didn't realize that they
Speaker 1: were going slower kind of than then they were heading
Speaker 1: towards the stall. Maybe that maybe their stall indicator was broken,
Speaker 1: which is not unheard of. Uh, and supposing to say
Speaker 1: the pilot was putting the plane into a turn and
Speaker 1: then just write about them the plane stalls while he
Speaker 1: winds up a tailspin, which are as I said, generally
Speaker 1: recoverable as long as you have enough altitude to work
Speaker 1: with the ground. Yeah. Yeah, because stunt flyers do them.
Speaker 1: All the time, And of course I did in flight
Speaker 1: simulator and it works out fine for me, but I
Speaker 1: usually like a big margin, even in flight simulator. But
Speaker 1: from what I read on the interwebs, and and yes,
Speaker 1: of course there are there's at least one web forum
Speaker 1: to vote it to nothing other than flying the d
Speaker 1: C three of course, of course, and lots of good
Speaker 1: information out there. But according to these guys at d
Speaker 1: C three, slash C forty seven doesn't actually recover so
Speaker 1: well from tailspins. It's an oddly shaped plane. Yeah, in
Speaker 1: terms of its proportions, just like in the script, he says,
Speaker 1: and they're not recommended. Yeah, yeah, yeah they are. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean this this plane is it is one third
Speaker 1: wider on its wings than it is long, because it's
Speaker 1: sixty three ft long, and it's ninety five ft across
Speaker 1: from wing tip to wing tip. For folks on the
Speaker 1: other side, that's nineteen meters by twenty nine meters. So
Speaker 1: it's I can see how that would be rather ungainly
Speaker 1: and difficult to pull out of a spin. Yeah, definitely,
Speaker 1: and it's of course, but but of course those big
Speaker 1: old wings could generate a lot of lips. That's what
Speaker 1: they're for Yeah, and that's why the d C three
Speaker 1: was so great. It could it could it could land
Speaker 1: in short little spaces and stuff like that, and it's
Speaker 1: really good for all that kind of stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: a very versatile plane. There's still some around actually even
Speaker 1: today flying. There are a few left. Yeah. Actually, we
Speaker 1: used to have one right here in Portland at arms.
Speaker 1: Did you ever see that thing? No? I didn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: years ago with the old arms up by the Zoo,
Speaker 1: they had a d C three on public display there
Speaker 1: for many many years. I remember that. You remember that one? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And unfortunately when they moved down to the river they
Speaker 1: got rid of it, which kind of Actually, I'm still
Speaker 1: kind of angry about that. That was really cool. And
Speaker 1: I'm sure they sold it to somebody who's going to
Speaker 1: restore it if they haven't already. Is it not at
Speaker 1: the Aviation and Space Museum? I don't know. Maybe I
Speaker 1: would think that's where they'd send it. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean hopefully they didn't send, like to sell it to
Speaker 1: a scrap yard. If you would think not, let's pray
Speaker 1: that they didn't do that. Well anyway, where were we?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Tailspan's uh, I don't know. I think the
Speaker 1: pilots would have had to have been really kind of
Speaker 1: asleep at the switch for this to happen. Although it
Speaker 1: was early, maybe they hadn't had their coffee, but that
Speaker 1: I mentioned they took off a seven thirty in the morning. Yes,
Speaker 1: maybe they just hadn't had enough coffee. And maybe they
Speaker 1: but I it just seems like that'd be such a
Speaker 1: bonehead of mistaked to that pretty big stretch. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: kind of is. Uh. And there's one more possibility into
Speaker 1: the pilot air theory, which is at the Sea forty
Speaker 1: seven slash DC three, we had a little design flawed
Speaker 1: its engines. I don't know if you guys researched this
Speaker 1: at all, but uh, And I'll talk about that in
Speaker 1: a minute. So if the Captain Barreo was but a yeah,
Speaker 1: but I was unaware of this problem, or for some
Speaker 1: reason he shows to ignore it, then I suppose that
Speaker 1: could have caused a little bit of an existential crisis
Speaker 1: on the plane. Um. And so I'll explain what the
Speaker 1: problem is in a second air. Okay, So that would
Speaker 1: be a combination kind of mechanical malfunction plus a little
Speaker 1: bit of error on the part of our pilot and
Speaker 1: have we said, by the way, that the pilot air
Speaker 1: is the most popular theory according to the original investigations,
Speaker 1: not the most popular theory, but the original investigation. That's what.
Speaker 1: According to the original investigation, it was the most popular.
Speaker 1: It was the most popular theory, as in, that's what
Speaker 1: everybody believed, including the public and everybody in the beginning.
Speaker 1: That's what the investigators said. Yes, yeah, they were the
Speaker 1: ones who were saying, yeah, it was totally pilot air.
Speaker 1: I know, the investigating more it's totally pilot air. Well,
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean it was the most popular theory. It
Speaker 1: just means that it was the one that the government opinion,
Speaker 1: which is always the most popular opinion, is always the
Speaker 1: most popular. So, yeah, what's our next theory. Okay, let's
Speaker 1: talk about another theory. I could see the nineteen seventies
Speaker 1: three version of the internet. Government says pilot area. Heck, yeah,
Speaker 1: I like that a lot. Well, let's let's start a
Speaker 1: letter writing campaign. It was a different Internet back in
Speaker 1: those days. Yeah, that totally was Well, it's our next series,
Speaker 1: mechanical malfunction. Um. So, as I just mentioned, there was
Speaker 1: a little bit of an issue with those engines. Of course,
Speaker 1: this is a prop plane. It's not a jet prop plane.
Speaker 1: Got piston engines, and you all, I'm sure know how
Speaker 1: piston engines work. If you, if not paused and go
Speaker 1: out and do a little work on the internet. Seat, Yeah.
Speaker 1: The manufacturer McDonald Douglas recommends running these engines full out
Speaker 1: as much as possible. And the reason for that is apparently,
Speaker 1: with this particular engine, if you're running it less than
Speaker 1: full RPMs for a long periods of time, Uh, then
Speaker 1: deposits will form at the head of the cylinder, at
Speaker 1: the top of the piston stroke from unburned fuel residue,
Speaker 1: and you'll wind up with a nice hard ring at
Speaker 1: the top of your cylinder on the inside. Got that
Speaker 1: it makes me? Yeah, I I understand, Yeah, I get
Speaker 1: the engine. So yeah, And so apparently if you if
Speaker 1: you run the engines full out all the time and
Speaker 1: then that that rain does not appear. But if you're
Speaker 1: if you're running your engine at lower i p ms,
Speaker 1: and you'll you'll wind up developing that ring probably And
Speaker 1: you know the thing about not running it at full
Speaker 1: erpms at least. This is my understanding based on a
Speaker 1: guy a new years ago who was a pilot as
Speaker 1: he said, you you typically don't want to be running
Speaker 1: your airplanes engines at high RPMs all the time. You
Speaker 1: want to be at just the low enough rpm that
Speaker 1: you're you've got speed and you you keep lift, but
Speaker 1: you're not maxing it out, so you're trying to keep
Speaker 1: it at a lower rpm. Does that make sense. It's
Speaker 1: kind of like your car. I can drive it three
Speaker 1: thousand r p ms in second gear or two thousand
Speaker 1: RPMs in third gear, and I'm going to get better
Speaker 1: mileage and especially the engine. Yeah, And it's the same thing.
Speaker 1: So I can understand a pilot who got the same
Speaker 1: kind of advice this guy gave me. Let's run at
Speaker 1: the lower RPMs all the time. You're gonna get better
Speaker 1: field economy and stuff like that. Sure, and so the
Speaker 1: theory goes that the ring somehow interferes with the engine.
Speaker 1: Yeah this ring, Yeah, this's this ring of this hard
Speaker 1: ring of residue. Essentially, what happens is that if you've
Speaker 1: been running your engine at less than full RPMs regularly
Speaker 1: a lot, then you get and you get that ring.
Speaker 1: And then if suddenly, for some reason, with this particular engine,
Speaker 1: if you've suddenly got it up to full RPMs. What
Speaker 1: happens is your piston which and you know what a
Speaker 1: piston ring is, right, not the same as a ring
Speaker 1: on the inside of the cylinder. The piston with the
Speaker 1: piston rings actually can hit that hard ring on the
Speaker 1: inside of the cylinder and break and from the problem.
Speaker 1: That's a big problem. It's kind in the engine world.
Speaker 1: That's kind of catastrophic actually, because those rings keep the
Speaker 1: oil that's in the engine from going into the fuel
Speaker 1: system and vice versa. And if they start to mix,
Speaker 1: really bad things happen. Right, And on top of that,
Speaker 1: just having these things break into pieces and and being
Speaker 1: stuck between the pillar of the piston and the cylinder
Speaker 1: wall is also getting ground in and so yeah, they're
Speaker 1: gonna they're gonna be the hell out everything, destroy it
Speaker 1: quite quickly. Yeah, the engines tend to go. It's several
Speaker 1: thousand revolutions per minute, that's what RPMs are. You can
Speaker 1: just see how quickly that's just going to destroy something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you wind up your hole, engine can just fly to pieces.
Speaker 1: I'll get an email from at least one mechanic about that.
Speaker 1: I'm sure always change your oil. Yeah, yeah, that actually
Speaker 1: good advice. Uh, and rotate your tires also. Yeah, But anyway,
Speaker 1: let's imagine that you're flying our Go six one find
Speaker 1: November morning. Suddenly your left engine gives out. And that's
Speaker 1: not a huge problem because all you gotta do is
Speaker 1: crank up the right engine to make up for some
Speaker 1: of that powerless. But under certain circumstances, of course, this
Speaker 1: can cause our right engine to fail too, and that
Speaker 1: that's when things get a little serious. That's what I'm
Speaker 1: talking about pilot Air, because Carta Breo should have been
Speaker 1: aware of this issue with these engines theoretically, theoretically should
Speaker 1: have been And you know, again, this is all supposition
Speaker 1: on my part two, because we don't know how he
Speaker 1: ran his plane. He panted this thing all the time,
Speaker 1: an rather he might have run it full out seven
Speaker 1: I don't know, But just supposing and this guy went
Speaker 1: on long flights over the Adriatic kind of radar sniffing missions,
Speaker 1: I would not be surprised if he didn't run it
Speaker 1: full out all the time, because field economy and all
Speaker 1: that stuff. But I guess if that's if that's what happened,
Speaker 1: I suppose you could argue that pilot Air did contribute
Speaker 1: to that crash. So here's another question for you, is
Speaker 1: that the sort of are those rings? Could they form
Speaker 1: if you were just sitting on the ground with your
Speaker 1: props running. It takes a while for it takes a
Speaker 1: while for the for deposits like that to accumulate, talking
Speaker 1: like days, weeks, hours, lots and hundreds of hours of operations. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it takes a long time. It's not gonna happen just
Speaker 1: that morning. It's the same thing. Have you seen those
Speaker 1: hideous commercials from like Chevron where they showed the super
Speaker 1: crud engine. Yeah, that means that's what I'm time to happen,
Speaker 1: right of course. I mean it's the same thing in
Speaker 1: this scenario. Okay, I just wanted to make sure that
Speaker 1: that was happening, So Joe, I have I wanted to
Speaker 1: see what the service record of this kind of plane was.
Speaker 1: Do you know how often these freaking things went down?
Speaker 1: You know? I saw that there were a lot of
Speaker 1: incidents out there, and I started going through them, and
Speaker 1: a lot of them were not through actually a failure
Speaker 1: of the plane is you know, a bunch of them
Speaker 1: they flew into stuff like mountains. They fell in the
Speaker 1: mountains where they got shot down by the enemy. Are
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff happened, and I didn't want to
Speaker 1: sort them all out and try to figure out how
Speaker 1: many of them were due to mechanical failure. And there
Speaker 1: do seem to be a lot. Of course, You've got
Speaker 1: to keep in mind they made a help a lot
Speaker 1: of these planes. They did. They did so, and I
Speaker 1: understand that I'm I'm narrowing in on a small portion,
Speaker 1: but that could be an important portion because aside from
Speaker 1: flying into solid objects like mountains, uh, there there's a
Speaker 1: number of things that I came across that seemed to
Speaker 1: be issues that were accidents related to take off. So
Speaker 1: I tried to find things that were take off only.
Speaker 1: So there's like you were talking about, just a random,
Speaker 1: unexplainable engine failure failure. But I'm also finding that in
Speaker 1: terms of like pilot air, which we were talking about before,
Speaker 1: it was it seems like it wasn't too hard to
Speaker 1: starve the engine of fuel by leaving your choke on
Speaker 1: or choking the engine too much. What's the best way
Speaker 1: to describe what a choke does, because nobody has a
Speaker 1: choke anymore. Yeah, it's where you bought it with more
Speaker 1: fuel yeah, it chances see the air, It chances to
Speaker 1: see the air fuel mix. That chances that ratio, which
Speaker 1: is what typically you would do on a cold engine
Speaker 1: so that it it starts and it heats up. But
Speaker 1: if you do that and you end up accidentally starving
Speaker 1: it of oxygen, you can kill the engine like the
Speaker 1: flu on a fire, very similar. Yes, yeah, you do,
Speaker 1: you do have You do have to adjust that as
Speaker 1: you change attitude. And I found that out actually some
Speaker 1: years back when I wanted to flight with this guy
Speaker 1: in a little two seaters h Cessna. We were flying,
Speaker 1: went up to fly over Mount St. Helen's. I was
Speaker 1: just turning around, just looking at the back window and
Speaker 1: just checking out the scenery and stuff. We were well
Speaker 1: up in the air, and he chose that moment to
Speaker 1: adjust the fuel air mixture. And also I was sitting
Speaker 1: there looking at the back of All of a sudden,
Speaker 1: they hear the engine going to like that, and I
Speaker 1: kind of turned around and I can't imagine what my
Speaker 1: eyes looked like. I'm sure they were as big as saucers.
Speaker 1: And he's probably having a good laugh. Oh yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: he laughed. But yeah, and but yeah, that's what you
Speaker 1: do is it changed that mix till your engine start
Speaker 1: to miss a bit and you crank it back a
Speaker 1: little bit. And so that is one thing. Not having
Speaker 1: enough air speed can be a problem. There was there
Speaker 1: were situations where people were the you know, like a
Speaker 1: gust of wind help them take off, and then that
Speaker 1: disappears and they don't have their engines going fast enough,
Speaker 1: so they lose their their loft. There was just in
Speaker 1: general not having enough air speed, which I think is
Speaker 1: the ones where people basically ran into the end of
Speaker 1: the air the runway. Those were the ones, um. And
Speaker 1: then like you were talking about stalling, and there was
Speaker 1: somebody there was one that randomly the rear door popped
Speaker 1: open and ripped off the plane and then tore through
Speaker 1: the tail. So there's there's a lot of stuff. But
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, though, is that if it isn't this is
Speaker 1: kind of mechanical or this might kind of be pilot.
Speaker 1: Is that accidentally um starving the engine and that would
Speaker 1: be it's kind of very plausible accidental thing to do
Speaker 1: to to to kill it. Here's the problem with that, though,
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, Joe. But there was no
Speaker 1: radio communication between the plane and the towers saying we're
Speaker 1: going down. Yeah, not that I am aware of. And
Speaker 1: I looked around for that. I saw no indication, which
Speaker 1: to me tells me that it was not. It was
Speaker 1: something very very sudden and catastrophic, which you know, starving
Speaker 1: the engines by accident and then losing all aloft. That's
Speaker 1: going to take a minute or so. You probably have
Speaker 1: time to call in. You know this automatic habit for pilots.
Speaker 1: You gotta call the airport and go say, hey, clear
Speaker 1: the runways, I'm heading back your way and hopefully I
Speaker 1: can get there, or I'm heading here. Please send somebody.
Speaker 1: We're going to go down. It seems bachelor. It seems
Speaker 1: kind of like a rookie mistake to me. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know he was. It sounds like he was flying
Speaker 1: this plane like almost daily, and you know, if not
Speaker 1: definitely at least once a week. And yeah, I just
Speaker 1: have a hard time thinking that, you know, yeah, it
Speaker 1: is unless unless you had a rookie co pilot and
Speaker 1: you know, he say, and he just told him to
Speaker 1: take the controls and then have that. Well, he slept
Speaker 1: off the night before he headed back to go to
Speaker 1: the head or get a cup of coffee or but
Speaker 1: even then, you know, then you call in. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: would still call in. So yeah, the the only exception
Speaker 1: to that one would be if there was a tailspin. Uh,
Speaker 1: And then you can imagine that both pilots are busy
Speaker 1: just trying to pull the plane out of that and
Speaker 1: there's no there's no way you're gonna reach out and
Speaker 1: grab the mic and radio something. And then that's a
Speaker 1: four man crew. There's four of them there. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: but those of the other guys were in the back
Speaker 1: and they were probably plastered to the ceiling. I think
Speaker 1: he got it true from the probably about impossible for
Speaker 1: them to get to a radio. That's true. I okay,
Speaker 1: I would presume that. And obviously I've never flown a plane,
Speaker 1: but not We've done enough plane stories that it seems
Speaker 1: to me that communication with the tower in a in
Speaker 1: a problem situation is almost automatic. It's almost you know,
Speaker 1: you hit to which and you you you start making
Speaker 1: your calls, even while because it's it's pretty easy to
Speaker 1: talk and frantically push buttons and pull levers and stomp
Speaker 1: on things. Oh yeah, no, it totally is. But if
Speaker 1: you're stop doing something like a tailspin, I mean, there's
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of g forces as you
Speaker 1: spin around and stuff like that. At the point, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be hard, I think, to reach out and grab
Speaker 1: your microphone at that at that point really but yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, but that's just assuming it was there was
Speaker 1: a tailspin. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I
Speaker 1: kind of like the tailspin theory, because after all, they
Speaker 1: did crash just six miles from the airport. Essentially they
Speaker 1: got ut and then they crashed. Well, they didn't really
Speaker 1: glide that far. It seems like they went up and
Speaker 1: it's basically almost went straight down. Well, they skipped with
Speaker 1: the plane skipped when it hit the ground. It's it
Speaker 1: hits something it hit was a building or a series
Speaker 1: of cars, I can't remember, suddenly and then continued forward,
Speaker 1: Whereas if it was a tailspin and it was dropping,
Speaker 1: it should have continued to drop straight down. Well unless
Speaker 1: they pulled it out, you know, somewhere at the last
Speaker 1: minute and then just managed you know, so they might
Speaker 1: have been moving at least something somewhat horizontally. Again, it's
Speaker 1: frustrating with this one. A fun little mystery and I
Speaker 1: like it a lot, but I wish there was a
Speaker 1: little more information that'd be nice. I mean, for example,
Speaker 1: I've looked at a few US air crashes and I'll
Speaker 1: be able to find like actual reports of the board
Speaker 1: of Boards of Inquiry and all this. Uh, they can
Speaker 1: find a lot of you really useful detailed information. Ain't
Speaker 1: nothing with this now, Well, where we move on to
Speaker 1: our next theory. Let's take a quick break. Dave patrols
Speaker 1: the perimeter dozens of times a day. Whenever he spots
Speaker 1: a potential threat, he alerts everyone around. He is proud
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Speaker 1: maybe that's a good thing, since no one can really
Speaker 1: understand what Dave is trying to say. Anyway, he's now
Speaker 1: assists is the mailman. The garbage man is a close second.
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Speaker 1: at just over four pounds. There isn't much that Dave
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Speaker 1: after all, he's a chihuahua? Or is he the cheap
Speaker 1: of cobra? Pull up? Pull up? Okay, okay, there we go.
Speaker 1: We're out of our tailspin Um, Why are why? Why
Speaker 1: did you decide we had to go to the simulator?
Speaker 1: Were you proving that you get? Why? You will never
Speaker 1: fly us anywhere? I don't even know that I want
Speaker 1: to be in a car with him again, I've never
Speaker 1: been in a car with It's it's weird. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: to keep it that way. You probably don't want flight
Speaker 1: simulat to guys because they're just not that worried about dying.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, you can get killed, and it's like, hey,
Speaker 1: what's a big deal? All right, So what's our next
Speaker 1: series here, sir? Our next one is air frame failure.
Speaker 1: That's one things like you know, wings and stuff falls,
Speaker 1: the back of the back of the plane falls off. Yea,
Speaker 1: so it's not great. That can happen. It has happened. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess I'm walking to Indianapolis. Yeah, she yeah. Now
Speaker 1: the freeway is a lot safer than flying, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: But yeah, we've all been there. I mean, you're on
Speaker 1: a routine flight to l A. Suddenly the starboard wing
Speaker 1: falls off. The plane is this is just spinning downward
Speaker 1: towards certain dyn You suck a bunch your neighbor and
Speaker 1: take her bible from her so you can pray a
Speaker 1: little bit before you die, and then you wake up
Speaker 1: and you realize it was just a nightmare. But then
Speaker 1: you look around and you realize that well, and you're
Speaker 1: on a Boeing seven thirty seven on the port wing
Speaker 1: has fallen off. Yeah, and your neighbor doesn't have a bible,
Speaker 1: so you've got a resort to just begging God to please, please,
Speaker 1: please let you live so you can give these jerks
Speaker 1: a really really crappy Yelp review, and God hasn't said
Speaker 1: anything back, and the ground keeps coming closer. And then
Speaker 1: you wake up and you're not on a plane. You're
Speaker 1: not spinning towards certain death, thank God, I know. And
Speaker 1: then you become aware that you're on a Greyhound bust
Speaker 1: being driven by a guy with a hockey goalie mask
Speaker 1: on who's speeding ninety miles an hour towards the cliff.
Speaker 1: Oh and at that and at some point you're subconscious
Speaker 1: just gets bored with all these lame plot twists, and
Speaker 1: you wake up in your own bed and you're all
Speaker 1: safe and sound. We just went through the entire dream sequencing.
Speaker 1: How does that relate to failure of this aircraft? Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's well, you know, some fluke happened, Like
Speaker 1: I mean, air frame failure does happen, Like if you're
Speaker 1: pulling nine g s out of a dive and you're
Speaker 1: plane is not raged for nine g s, well you
Speaker 1: could you can see a plane like a wing snap
Speaker 1: off or at least bend, But there was nothing that
Speaker 1: stressful happening with Argo sixteen. You know, nothing out of
Speaker 1: the ordinary. Um, and of course this is this is
Speaker 1: what you're talking about. I mean, well, in terms of
Speaker 1: what they were doing, I mean, they weren't pulling nine
Speaker 1: g s. No, not they were, as far as I know,
Speaker 1: they were either still climbing or they they were leveling off.
Speaker 1: They weren't. They weren't pulling some monster killer dive and
Speaker 1: pulling out and putting all sorts of G forces on
Speaker 1: their air frame. They didn't have enough time, No, not
Speaker 1: at all. Yeah. I mean, the only thing I can
Speaker 1: think of with an air frame failure is just sabotage
Speaker 1: maybe um or possibly say a bomb plane, a bomb
Speaker 1: in the right place on the plane. Well, that's good.
Speaker 1: I can cause an airplane that could Yeah, catastrophic failure, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I believe that is the epitome of Yeah. He put
Speaker 1: in the back and blows the tail off. You know,
Speaker 1: there's the whole tail of the plane. Well that's bad news.
Speaker 1: It's not great, No, not at all. So. But but
Speaker 1: as far as their airframe failure, I nobody's ever put
Speaker 1: that forward. I just thought i'd show that. Well, actually
Speaker 1: I saw some hinting added that was kind of cleared
Speaker 1: up because one of the wings was taken off, But
Speaker 1: that's isn't not the one that hit a lamppost and
Speaker 1: it's still there. Well, that was the weird thing when
Speaker 1: I was doing the reading. Is that there? And and
Speaker 1: the wing hit this lamp post and it shared in
Speaker 1: the wing broke off, and they're like, yeah, if that happened,
Speaker 1: the lamppost would have been destroyed as well. And the
Speaker 1: lamppost is still there. Again, This is one of those
Speaker 1: things with the reporting on this story, that's weird. Sorry,
Speaker 1: the reports at the time said the lamppost just still
Speaker 1: there or somebody today. Investigators. Investigators were people who had
Speaker 1: gotten the original investigation. I was gonna say, well, Steve,
Speaker 1: they just put a new one back. No, that was
Speaker 1: the thing that I'm pretty sure it was people in
Speaker 1: the area at the time. We've got the report like
Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense because I'm looking at it
Speaker 1: and it shouldn't have been here anymore. It just depends
Speaker 1: on how stoutly that thing is made and how you know,
Speaker 1: and how well anchored it was. It also depends on
Speaker 1: the efficiency of municipal services. They might have been right
Speaker 1: out there. Johnny on the spot with a spare and
Speaker 1: put it up that Day's I doubt that, Italy, I know,
Speaker 1: I know, I know, but I mean it's always I
Speaker 1: know they have spares. Okay, Okay, So yeah, air frame failure,
Speaker 1: probably not. Probably there was a bomb, not in and
Speaker 1: of itself, unless it was sabotage. And I don't know
Speaker 1: how easy it is like to do subtle sabotage of
Speaker 1: a seaporty seven, Like can you sneak inside and sort
Speaker 1: of loosen all the bolts to one wing? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Probably not. I don't think. I don't think that's the case.
Speaker 1: They probably don't make it easy to do something like that.
Speaker 1: So air frame failure, probably not, unless there was, of
Speaker 1: course a bomb. Okay, so you've said that four times.
Speaker 1: I know you're you're leading me somewhere. I'm kind of Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is called in the literary world, it's called foreshadowing.
Speaker 1: Didn't he say that last week? He did? Okay? Did that? Okay? Okay,
Speaker 1: so that last week was foreshadowing? All right, Let's move
Speaker 1: on to some of our juice here theories. And this
Speaker 1: is probably the most popular one south there, which is
Speaker 1: the Mossad did it? Sorry? Who are the Mesad. That's
Speaker 1: Israeli intelligence. Yeah, yeah, and the Massade actually has a
Speaker 1: reputation as being a very very effective bunch. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: did either of you read through the list of things
Speaker 1: that they are credited with doing retally freaking crap. They're
Speaker 1: good at what they do. They are really scary, they are. Yeah,
Speaker 1: They're totally good. And then you know, Israel kind of
Speaker 1: lives in a rough neighborhood, so they have to be
Speaker 1: good at what they do, and you know, and they
Speaker 1: are good at what they do. And this particular theory
Speaker 1: the Massad done. It has actually been suggested even by
Speaker 1: members of the Italian government. So yeah, it's not just
Speaker 1: tin tintoil hat types on the internet. It's actual you know,
Speaker 1: cabinet ministers and things like that. Like I said, it's
Speaker 1: the most prevalent theory out there. So the whole genesis
Speaker 1: of this story begins in February nineteen seventy three, uh
Speaker 1: Libyan Airlines Flight one fourteen to Cairo was thrown off
Speaker 1: course by a sandstorm and it wind up over the
Speaker 1: Sinai Desert um, which, as you probably know, maybe you
Speaker 1: don't know. After the nineteen sixties, seven wore the sin
Speaker 1: I was occupied by Israel, Right, I've been to ask
Speaker 1: you a whole bunch of questions, so if you can
Speaker 1: preempt those, because that that area is very hard for
Speaker 1: me to keep straight because there's so many players and
Speaker 1: so many moving borders. Yeah, they do shift a little bit,
Speaker 1: don't they. Yeah. Well, anyway, so it was over the Sinai, um,
Speaker 1: and then it was trying to like turn back, and
Speaker 1: of course Israeli warplanes intercepted. One of the things. The
Speaker 1: Israeli has noted this thing had just flown flown over
Speaker 1: the sus to no fly zone, and Egyptian ground defense
Speaker 1: missiles had not shot it down, which made them a
Speaker 1: little suspicious if I was maybe a spy plane instead
Speaker 1: of a passenger yet, so they shot it down, um.
Speaker 1: And well it turns out that was a bit of
Speaker 1: a mistake. It was full of civilians, um all. But
Speaker 1: I think nine people died in the crash, So yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of a black eye for the Israelis. And of
Speaker 1: course this was a Libyan plane. Mostly Libyans on the plane,
Speaker 1: and muamarket Api, who was the ruler of Libya at
Speaker 1: the time, was thirsting for revenge against the Israelis. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so he wanted to shoot down in the l
Speaker 1: airliner and l Al, of course is the Israeli national airline. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so they decided to shoot one down flying out
Speaker 1: of room, and they wanted to shoot the biggest one
Speaker 1: they could, which at that time would have been a
Speaker 1: seven forty seven. So the plan was to shoot down
Speaker 1: a seven forty seven as it is it Uh, the
Speaker 1: Machino Airport in Rome? Is that how it was pronounced?
Speaker 1: Italian girl, We're just going with your pronunciations from now on. Okay,
Speaker 1: So movemar. Kadafi wanted to mount a joint Libyan Egyptian operation.
Speaker 1: And again Kadafi is in charge of Oliba of Libya. Okay.
Speaker 1: Then Arsadat, who was a successor to Gamal Abden last year,
Speaker 1: had recently died of heart attack as the president of Egypt.
Speaker 1: How do you keep all that in your head? I'm
Speaker 1: looking at my notes and I don't have any of that.
Speaker 1: You know, I've been sort of studying this stuff for
Speaker 1: a while. Okay, So we've got and Sadat wants to
Speaker 1: sort of pacify Kadafi, so you know, he cooperated with
Speaker 1: him on this. You could see it was very important
Speaker 1: to him, and so he since Egypt was supplied with
Speaker 1: Soviet weapon right, they just happened up a few extra
Speaker 1: Soviet Essay seven Strala anti aircraft vessels laying around. That's ground,
Speaker 1: that's surfaced air missiles, right exactly. Yeah, kind of like
Speaker 1: our Stinger missiles. Yeah. And and so the Egyptians agreed
Speaker 1: to to help out the operation by supplying them with
Speaker 1: two of these missiles, which they smuggled into Rome. Uh.
Speaker 1: And that was they were smuggled. Any boy, a guy
Speaker 1: named Ustraf Marwan. He was an Egyptian who, oh, by
Speaker 1: the way, was actually working for the Massad at this time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was. He worked for them sad for years actually. Uh.
Speaker 1: And Marwan actually wound up living in London, where he
Speaker 1: died in two thousand seven under what they called suspicious circumstances. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So there's another unsolved mystery. Ah. He fell off the
Speaker 1: balcony of his apartment building. Yeah, got it, Yeah, went
Speaker 1: over the railings somehow, and yeah, so it's considered a mystery.
Speaker 1: But so he his wife actually smuggled him into room
Speaker 1: under diplomatic bag and have passed him off to him
Speaker 1: to Madawan and and then he had to meet up
Speaker 1: with these terrorists because if he had recruited five Black
Speaker 1: September terrorists too. And Black September is the Palestinian group
Speaker 1: called themselves Black September named after the events of September
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy in Jordan's which is getting often of the
Speaker 1: weeds some more. But that's where they get their name
Speaker 1: from because that September nineteen seventy is called Black September
Speaker 1: by the Palestinians because of what happened the Jordanians Civil
Speaker 1: war and they got kind of got their asses handed
Speaker 1: to them by King Hussain of Jordan's and that's why
Speaker 1: they call it that. Um. So this this group pops
Speaker 1: up Black September. You might have heard of them the
Speaker 1: Munich Olympics in nineteen seventy two. They massacred a bunch
Speaker 1: of Israeli athletes. That was Black September. Okay, So anyway,
Speaker 1: though I won't get too much into detail about this operation,
Speaker 1: but essentially Ostro mor Juan had to meet up with
Speaker 1: these guys to live the missiles, so he hasn't look
Speaker 1: the trunk of his car, so now he has the missiles. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this is hilarious. So they're they're gonna rendezvous at
Speaker 1: this shoe store in Rome, and so they meet up.
Speaker 1: The Black September guy walks up to him, gives him
Speaker 1: the past for the secret code word and all that stuff,
Speaker 1: and and then he says, Okay, well, you know I
Speaker 1: got I got to get that you guys need. So
Speaker 1: we're just gonna get it into your car and you
Speaker 1: guys can take it back to your place and get
Speaker 1: ready for the operation. And then the Black September guy says,
Speaker 1: what we walked here and have a car and I
Speaker 1: and and they scratched their heads a little bit. And
Speaker 1: then and what the Black September you guys did is
Speaker 1: they went down the street to a carpet a carpet store,
Speaker 1: and they bought a couple of big Persian rugs and
Speaker 1: brought it back and they rolled up the missiles and
Speaker 1: the launchers in the rugs, and then they all threw
Speaker 1: them on their shoulders and and they went they actually
Speaker 1: went to a subway station and took them back to
Speaker 1: their place on the subway. Missed the and the aircraft
Speaker 1: missiles rolled in carpets on the on the room subway.
Speaker 1: That's yeah, I know, that's it really is. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: they got they got their missiles back to where they
Speaker 1: needed to be. But it turns out that on our
Speaker 1: Sadat actually didn't want this plot to succeed um and
Speaker 1: he had actually told Ostro Marwan to rat out these
Speaker 1: guys to the Italians. But Marijuana had already told the
Speaker 1: Massad anyway, so the Bisade tipped off the Italians, and
Speaker 1: the Italians were cooperative and they captured all the terrorists
Speaker 1: before they could shoot down an airplane and kill hundreds
Speaker 1: of people. So it was a successful operation all the
Speaker 1: way around, and all the Italians were kind enough. Also,
Speaker 1: the Israelis asked them if they could have one of
Speaker 1: the strellas them a the nentirecraft missiles, and the Italians
Speaker 1: said shure, and they gave one. Yes. They hadn't seen
Speaker 1: Estralla before. They wanted to take it apart and I
Speaker 1: have a look at it. Yeah, But here's where the
Speaker 1: Italians didn't quite do the right thing. They released the
Speaker 1: terrorists because they were afraid of terrorists reprisals, and so
Speaker 1: it's and then apparently what I heard is that they
Speaker 1: tried them, may be convicted, and I'm not sure how
Speaker 1: for all it went. But then eventually they just let
Speaker 1: them go. What they did is say, supposedly Argo sixteen,
Speaker 1: that's our plane that crashed. Supposedly it transported those five
Speaker 1: from Italy to Libya via Malta. And as the story
Speaker 1: I have heard anyway, is that in Malta, Mossad agents
Speaker 1: spotted the plane and figured out what they were up to.
Speaker 1: The fear enough they were taking the Black September guys
Speaker 1: back to Kadafi's home place, and that this theory is
Speaker 1: that the argue was was downed by bomb or whatever
Speaker 1: in retaliation for the release of the Black September terrorists.
Speaker 1: That this is so, that's why, and by saw so
Speaker 1: what I so? I think so the reason that they
Speaker 1: released him, if I understand correctly, is that Italy had
Speaker 1: a double policy. In other words, because it was fearing
Speaker 1: getting attacked by anybody, they were Okay, well, we're on
Speaker 1: your side, so we will totally fight against them. Oh,
Speaker 1: we captured some of them. We're gonna return them to
Speaker 1: their place and make a deal with the place that
Speaker 1: they came from so that they don't attack us. So
Speaker 1: you don't attack us, because we'll fight them and we
Speaker 1: and they won't attack us because we fight you and
Speaker 1: like they tried to be Switzerland in the whole deal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but but it didn't work. Well. They're yeah, they're a
Speaker 1: little strategically to strategically located to be Switzerland, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Switzerland's kind of out of the way. That works to
Speaker 1: their advantage. But they were trying to be semi neutral,
Speaker 1: and they just they went about it in the wrong way.
Speaker 1: They tried to be sneaky about it. And well, they
Speaker 1: had a thing called the Moral Packed, although that was
Speaker 1: not yet in place at this time as far as
Speaker 1: I know, which essentially said exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: They agree to sort of look the other way as
Speaker 1: long as the terrorist didn't blow anybody up or shoot
Speaker 1: anybody on a time territory, they would let them operate
Speaker 1: and do whatever they wanted. And so that's a variant
Speaker 1: on this series that the Massad brought down Argo sixteen,
Speaker 1: which is that they were retaliating for the Moral Packed,
Speaker 1: as isn't named after the Prime minister at the time,
Speaker 1: Prime Minister more of of Italy concluded a pact with
Speaker 1: the Plough essentially a mutual non aggression packed And so
Speaker 1: what this was is that p could they could do
Speaker 1: whatever they wanted if they were apprehended, they would be
Speaker 1: like they could actually live in Italy and operate out
Speaker 1: of Italy even as long as this is a quick,
Speaker 1: quick pro quo, no attacks took place on Italian soil.
Speaker 1: That's a variant on this series because San has said
Speaker 1: that this is why they Israelis did this, brought the
Speaker 1: plane down his retaliation for the Moral Pact. So just
Speaker 1: and again just because I need to tell I need
Speaker 1: to make sure I'm clarifying the parties here PLO Palestinian
Speaker 1: Liberation Front and Palestine Liberation Organization, thank you. And they
Speaker 1: are totally anti Israel, Yeah, very much. So that would expect.
Speaker 1: So in the Massadi is the Israeli intelligence intelligence. Okay,
Speaker 1: so that explains the clashing of the heads in the reprisal. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The PLO is as actually kind of an umbrella group.
Speaker 1: It's an organization that the largest group is in under
Speaker 1: this fatah, which is which was Yassa Arafats organization that
Speaker 1: he organized, and some other and then some other organizations
Speaker 1: also were brought into the umbrella of the PLOS. So
Speaker 1: it was kind of a somewhat more fragmented thing than
Speaker 1: a lot of people like to, but in general, but essentially,
Speaker 1: but essentially this represented the Palestinian cause on the one side,
Speaker 1: and and they and they're not totally analogous. I mean,
Speaker 1: the massade is more intelligence and also wet work. They
Speaker 1: did plenty of wet work by the way, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, as it comes with the territory. But as
Speaker 1: far as so it's being retaliation for the Moral Packed,
Speaker 1: I have a problem with this, which, as far as
Speaker 1: I can tell, the Moral Packed was not actually concluded
Speaker 1: or implemented until after December nineteen seventy three. But if
Speaker 1: they did release the five guys, then it could be
Speaker 1: retaliation for simply having done that. Craving released those guys exactly.
Speaker 1: So I don't think it was retaliation for the Moral Pact,
Speaker 1: because essentially there's those two series one retaliation for the
Speaker 1: Moral Pact Number two releasing these five guys, it could
Speaker 1: have been pre retaliation. I mean, you know, if it
Speaker 1: was implemented in nineteen seventy three. November of nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: two is when we're talking. This happened, right hosts November
Speaker 1: seventy November seventy three, So the Pact was later seventy three, Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean, we all know who politics work, right, I
Speaker 1: mean it takes a while. So if they, you know,
Speaker 1: if the Massade had gotten wind that this was going
Speaker 1: to happen, it could have been like a preemptive like, hey,
Speaker 1: don't do this or else you see what happens. And
Speaker 1: they did it anyway, and you know, they, yeah, obviously
Speaker 1: this is like on the Massade really screwed up because
Speaker 1: they brought down this plane and the Italians looked at
Speaker 1: and said, well, is there a message here? Damned if
Speaker 1: I can tell, I think the plane just fell out
Speaker 1: of the sky. And so obviously, you know, they picked
Speaker 1: the wrong target, or they were too good at their job.
Speaker 1: They just didn't. They just didn't. They chose to send
Speaker 1: a rather rather garbled message. But it could be well, no,
Speaker 1: actually you don't, Joe. I'll counter that though. It could
Speaker 1: be a garbled message, or it could be the people
Speaker 1: that they wanted to get the message got the message,
Speaker 1: they just didn't care. That is always a possibility. The
Speaker 1: guy that you're trying to send your message to, he
Speaker 1: totally gets it. He just didn't give a rip. Well,
Speaker 1: it's you know that. That's the thing about it too,
Speaker 1: is that you know, the Italians. If the Italians got
Speaker 1: the message about the moral packed and they decided, oh,
Speaker 1: the Israelis are angry, but on balance, the Palestinians are
Speaker 1: going to murder a lot more Italians than the Israelis
Speaker 1: are going to you know, and so well, okay, it
Speaker 1: makes sense to make the Israelis mad, not not the plo. Okay,
Speaker 1: there you go. Problem solved. But as to the other
Speaker 1: iteration of this theory, which was that it was retaliation
Speaker 1: for releasing the five Black September terrorists, um, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure exactly. And I looked and looked and looked on
Speaker 1: the interwebs to find out exactly how long they were
Speaker 1: held before they were released. I don't think they didn't
Speaker 1: just automatically catch them and just release them. No, this
Speaker 1: isn't like fishing, No, not at all. They had they had,
Speaker 1: so I don't know. Is it spy fishing like fishing
Speaker 1: it it's like a movie about that spy fishing. But
Speaker 1: it really is hard to say if our Igo sixteen
Speaker 1: was in retaliation again without knowing exactly when they were released.
Speaker 1: And also there wasn't a lot of time to mount
Speaker 1: a retaliatory operation because remember there was the October War
Speaker 1: and you know, the sixth October nineteen seventy three, presumably
Speaker 1: that occupied Israel's time and attention quite a bit. So
Speaker 1: how much time and did they actually have in man
Speaker 1: powerted into downing this obscure plane? Uh, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know. And and also there's also the fact that
Speaker 1: the Italians cooperated with him. They actually helped to foil
Speaker 1: the plot to bring down the plane, the seven forty seven.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of problems. They gave him the missile
Speaker 1: and they actually helped them out in this in the
Speaker 1: October War of seventy three. Yeah, I think overall it's
Speaker 1: not it's not the best. It's a more fun theory
Speaker 1: than you know, they went into a tail spin on accident.
Speaker 1: But I don't think it's a good theory. No, no,
Speaker 1: it's not. But you know, I think one of the
Speaker 1: reasons it's popular in Europe is that dark massade plots
Speaker 1: are really common currency in a lot of parts of
Speaker 1: the world, especially in Europe. There's there's a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of conspiracy theories surrounding the massade.
Speaker 1: I don't Yeah, this one just doesn't fly. I don't
Speaker 1: think the Massad did it, I see no reason to
Speaker 1: do it. Number one, I just don't. All right, so
Speaker 1: what else not? There's not a lot else here, but
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that brought up this this possibility,
Speaker 1: which is Operation Claudio. Ever heard of Glaudio? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: used to play Nintendo games and there was the game
Speaker 1: Gladius Gladius. That's close enough. Okay, it was Gladious. It was.
Speaker 1: It was Gladius, and I think it was a spaceship game. God,
Speaker 1: I can't remember too much. Go home and look that up.
Speaker 1: If the name but if the name Operation Glaudio sounds
Speaker 1: familiars because we talked about it in our September one episode.
Speaker 1: Except up, so I'm given away of time travel secret. Okay,
Speaker 1: never mind, just blank that out of your head. Glaudio
Speaker 1: was It was a shadowy operation. It began at the
Speaker 1: end of World War Two, and it was called Claudia
Speaker 1: Operation Glaudio in Italy, and as far as I know,
Speaker 1: that was out of the umbrella name for the entire
Speaker 1: operation europe wide, because there were similar organizations in almost
Speaker 1: every other Western European country, all under different names, with
Speaker 1: different names. Yeah, and there were a lot of cells
Speaker 1: out there, and uh, what these guys were is they
Speaker 1: were stay behind force of commando types, almost like Green
Speaker 1: Beret types, like empliers. Yeah exactly, but these were, you know,
Speaker 1: hardcore trained military types, and obviously they had lots and
Speaker 1: lots of weapons caches. These were and these guys weren't
Speaker 1: just regular private citizens. I mean, they were government employees.
Speaker 1: They were soldiers. So the original Red Dawn, not the remake, then,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, exactly, that's what they did remake that movie.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen that yet, don't, uh really Okay, uh
Speaker 1: So the idea was that these guys would have there
Speaker 1: would be sort of deepcover guys, and they would stay
Speaker 1: in place. If the Soviets invaded Europe and occupied Europe,
Speaker 1: these people would stay in place and train and arm
Speaker 1: other citizens and mount guerrilla attacks and the subversive organized
Speaker 1: their resistance. And that was the plan. And that's why,
Speaker 1: of course they had to have huge stashes of weapons,
Speaker 1: which I kind of wonder if they're all if they
Speaker 1: were all rounded up, if there's still a few out there,
Speaker 1: they'll be kind of cool. It has been rumored that
Speaker 1: the some of the Operation Claudio soldiers became kind of
Speaker 1: a rogue force in some places in Europe. They were
Speaker 1: staging assassinations and such on their own. I've never been
Speaker 1: able to find any any real confirmation of this. That's
Speaker 1: the big question, is like, were these guys like disciplined
Speaker 1: military units who followed orders or did they go rogue?
Speaker 1: I obviously, from an internet standpoint or even a literary standpoint,
Speaker 1: it's more fun to think that they went rogue right
Speaker 1: over in the course of thirty years, that's easy to imagine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they get they get a little bored, and they've been
Speaker 1: waiting for World War three for how long now? And then,
Speaker 1: by the way, we have access to these huge piles
Speaker 1: of weapons. You know, I could see why going out
Speaker 1: and then you're creating a little may It would be
Speaker 1: kind of a temptation. It makes me think of more
Speaker 1: than one phone call slash test measters that I've got
Speaker 1: from you, sir, which is, Hey, you want to go
Speaker 1: blow something up? You want to go shoot some guns? Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's go kill something. Although you're you're blowing stuff up,
Speaker 1: shooting it? Yeah, just a building or two, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: just kidding, yeah, uh so, Yeah, I mean that we
Speaker 1: all have kind of those temptations. You know, it's fun.
Speaker 1: But these guys were eventually dismantled and they never really
Speaker 1: saw any actions, so we don't know if they were
Speaker 1: really doing anything. Well I'm furthermore, how does it connect
Speaker 1: to the Argo? Yeah, well here is the connection. And
Speaker 1: and this is not well documented either, but it's out there.
Speaker 1: It's it's a popular theory. But it's been said that
Speaker 1: Argo sixteen, among other clandestine type planes, transported armaments and
Speaker 1: sold Jersey for Operation Claudio in Italy. And that's certainly plausible.
Speaker 1: I mean, a secrets byplane, you know, transporting secret armaments
Speaker 1: and secretcommando types. I guess that makes sense. It's not
Speaker 1: you know again, even though I can't document it, I
Speaker 1: don't know if you guys were able to find anything. No, yeah,
Speaker 1: at all. But the theory on this one is that
Speaker 1: the Italian government tried to reign in Operation Claudio in Italy, uh,
Speaker 1: starting in nineteen seventy three, the reason being, of course,
Speaker 1: this whole out of control thing. Maybe they had rogue
Speaker 1: elements and uh, you know how politicians are. They just
Speaker 1: don't like the idea of having people in their country
Speaker 1: aren't totally under their control. And these people weren't under
Speaker 1: you know, they weren't totally under Italian government control. And
Speaker 1: so the theory is here is that the Glaudio operators
Speaker 1: retaliated by bringing down OURGO sixteen that was there, and
Speaker 1: that was there sending him says, hey, don't mess with us,
Speaker 1: don't try to close us down and take our guns away.
Speaker 1: We dropped your plane, and then the Italian government there
Speaker 1: retically backed off, didn't try or didn't try anything more
Speaker 1: until about which was when the whole operation of Europe
Speaker 1: Wide was essentially phased out. Well it was uncovered, yeah,
Speaker 1: some of it became publicized, but also about that time,
Speaker 1: of course we've got to follow the Soviet Union and
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and so it didn't seem really as
Speaker 1: necessary anymore. And it will be interesting. Actually, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: deal a little more research on this, because there's got
Speaker 1: to be at least one guy who was part of
Speaker 1: this whole operation who wrote a book about it, and
Speaker 1: I want to find I want to try to find
Speaker 1: that out. So far, I've looked around a little bit.
Speaker 1: I haven't found it. I haven't found that guy in
Speaker 1: this book, but there's got to be somebody who wrote
Speaker 1: a book about it. What was it that you said
Speaker 1: on the last theory um that this is really obscure messaging.
Speaker 1: And oh you mean with like Argo sixteen dropping in
Speaker 1: because of the Well yeah, that's um, that's the the
Speaker 1: whole thing is that. Well, first off, I can't find
Speaker 1: any actual evidence or document station that the Italian government
Speaker 1: actually made any moves against Operation Glaudiol though of course
Speaker 1: they were super secrets, so so maybe, but it would
Speaker 1: be a secret if they made moves against them. How
Speaker 1: did the argo connect to Operation Glaudio? And yeah, again
Speaker 1: it's it's like you're sending a pretty garbled message there, huh,
Speaker 1: Because the way I see it, if the Ministry of
Speaker 1: the Interior is trying to clamp down in your operation,
Speaker 1: then you want to go bomb their headquarters. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: I mean I guess I can see, you know, message
Speaker 1: hits the right people. Everything super secret, so they're obviously
Speaker 1: not going to come out and say, especially investigators aren't
Speaker 1: going to come out and say, oh, yeah, these super
Speaker 1: secret agents that we have that have gone rogue that
Speaker 1: we've been trying to shut down and we can't shut down,
Speaker 1: bombed this airplane and brought it down, and that's who
Speaker 1: did it. Obviously you can't say that. I mean, so
Speaker 1: I can understand maybe the right person did get the
Speaker 1: message and they did back off. But again it's so tinfoil.
Speaker 1: Well it is, I mean, it's again, it just strikes
Speaker 1: me that you're bringing down the wrong target. Yeah uh yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, so anyway they bringing down Argo sixteen is
Speaker 1: just to me just doesn't send any message at all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, they're not the guy. So the Operation
Speaker 1: Claudio one. But there's another Glaudio angle, which is this.
Speaker 1: It's entirely possible that Argo sixteen really was transporting stuff
Speaker 1: for Operation Glaudio. It's entirely possible that day when ostensibly,
Speaker 1: if I can use that word again, sorry, that the
Speaker 1: they were supposed to be going off on a radar
Speaker 1: sniffing mission over the Adriatic. Maybe that was a cover
Speaker 1: for something else. Maybe they were actually taking some armaments
Speaker 1: or something else from Venice to somewhere for Operation Glaudio,
Speaker 1: dropping packages, dropping packages, weapons, whatever. So maybe the plan
Speaker 1: was to sort of go off their usual route down
Speaker 1: the Adriatic, even do a little radar sniffing on the way,
Speaker 1: and then land wherever they're supposed to offload their cargo.
Speaker 1: And supposing some of this cargo was a little volatile
Speaker 1: or somebody screwed up and armed arms something that they
Speaker 1: shouldn't have armed inadvertently, and we've talked about that before.
Speaker 1: You have to package and properly still certain materials on
Speaker 1: a plane to prevent them from going off. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: so you know what if that was actually their their
Speaker 1: main mission that day was not even radar, but to
Speaker 1: transport some stuff secretly and then up see something blew
Speaker 1: up on the plane to things vibrated together on takeoff
Speaker 1: and caused the combusted Yeah. Yeah, things like that could
Speaker 1: happen when we're talking about volatile things like weapons. Uh So,
Speaker 1: Actually I kind of liked this series because to me,
Speaker 1: I mean, the stuff about the more conspiratorial stuff like
Speaker 1: the massad and Operation Claudio, like blowing it up on purpose,
Speaker 1: they don't make a lot of sense. You know, does
Speaker 1: that make Does that? I would agree? Did you guys
Speaker 1: say that they just don't make much sense? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: don't think so. But then again, you know, if the
Speaker 1: cause was something mondane like pilot air or mechanical, that's
Speaker 1: super lame, that's super mouth, that's some Monday, And why
Speaker 1: would that Why would this stuff still be classified? And
Speaker 1: I still question it because they went down so fast
Speaker 1: and no, no, communication that we can find record of. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and and so this makes me wonder if and it
Speaker 1: wasn't even necessarily weapons for operation laudio, it could have
Speaker 1: been something else. But if if maybe their mission that
Speaker 1: day the sniff radars was just to cover for something else,
Speaker 1: Well what might that have been? And could whatever it
Speaker 1: was there a carry on the plane that brought that
Speaker 1: plane down that day? Too bad, we can't just file
Speaker 1: a freedom of information that quest. And well we know
Speaker 1: the documents are gone. A lot of documents have disappeared.
Speaker 1: The wreckage itself was chopped up and sold for scrap
Speaker 1: like shortly after the wreck They didn't keep it around
Speaker 1: for any period of time at all, which is a
Speaker 1: little suspicious. Again, well really, huh you think, of course
Speaker 1: this is Italy. They don't have as much room as
Speaker 1: America has. Yes, so they had this fast tract of
Speaker 1: kind of land in the middle of their country that
Speaker 1: is thousands of punk thousands of miles and nobody lives there.
Speaker 1: Let's just put all the funk airplanes on it. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: that's what we do here any more. Theories, Well, there's
Speaker 1: a troop of copra theory. Yeah, yeah, he was smoking
Speaker 1: on the plane while the red lightn no smoking that
Speaker 1: he was using a cell phone and I properly turned
Speaker 1: it off. Well, I got this there from one of
Speaker 1: my massade contact. Yeah, and he I was asking about
Speaker 1: this and he was like, oh, no, Joe, You're all wrong.
Speaker 1: It was yeah, and uh well, apparently what happened is
Speaker 1: is they were taking ancient choopy to train some operation
Speaker 1: Laudio guys just in the arts of phoeneasness and depravity,
Speaker 1: and things were going to be all good, and then
Speaker 1: they got to feet and suddenly Trippy kind of forgot
Speaker 1: himself for a moment, kind of what medieval on the
Speaker 1: pilot the coke pilot, you know. And I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1: I just have an implicated shoopy and so long, I
Speaker 1: feel kind of bad for our shoopy fans, So I
Speaker 1: need to throw that one in there. Uh So, anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with they had something in their hold
Speaker 1: that maybe shouldn't have been there, maybe that wasn't stilled
Speaker 1: quite correctly, and it kind of caused a catastrophic failure.
Speaker 1: That's kind of what I'm thinking. Yeah, but that's just me. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: we've got all that out of the way. Now it's
Speaker 1: tiding for the important stuff, which is all this housekeeping.
Speaker 1: I know that at least somebody wants to send me
Speaker 1: an email about this, so uh, let me get that
Speaker 1: out of the way first. Our email is Thinking Sideways
Speaker 1: Podcast at gmail dot com. Uh. And so you know,
Speaker 1: if you know about our gust six, you know the
Speaker 1: real storytell us we'd really appreciate hearing it. We also,
Speaker 1: of course have a website, which surprisingly is called Thinking
Speaker 1: Sideways podcast dot com. Uh. And also well, of course,
Speaker 1: on our website we have our episodes out there. You
Speaker 1: can listen to them and unfortunately no comments anymore, but
Speaker 1: you know, you can still look at our fabulous website
Speaker 1: and then listen to the episodes. It's awesome. Uh. And
Speaker 1: also you can find us on iTunes, where you can subscribe.
Speaker 1: You can also give us a rating and a review, preferably,
Speaker 1: you know, a good rating and a good review. We
Speaker 1: like those. And of course you can stream us everywhere
Speaker 1: Google Play especially, but there's a lot of other sites too,
Speaker 1: and you probably already know about that anyway. So why
Speaker 1: am I telling you I don't know? Uh? This is
Speaker 1: this thing called social media. You probably heard about this Facebook,
Speaker 1: Twitter and read it. We're out there on Facebook, we
Speaker 1: have a group and we have a page. So join
Speaker 1: the group and what like the page? Or do you
Speaker 1: like the group and join the page? Okay, all right,
Speaker 1: there we get it right the first time. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: we're of course also on Twitter where we are thinking sideways.
Speaker 1: No g there, and Devon is our most serious practitioner
Speaker 1: the Twitter. Yeah yeah, so send send Devon a tweet.
Speaker 1: And last of all, we have a subreddit. You guys
Speaker 1: have all heard of read it. Well, we have our
Speaker 1: own subreddit, our very own subreaddit. It's called thinking sideways. Uh,
Speaker 1: thousands of acres of land, people's store, defunct airplanes on.
Speaker 1: That's literally what that is? What redd it is? Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's that's what. Yeah, that's perfect. That's a good analogy.
Speaker 1: Or what's that literally true? It's literally true? Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll take you there sometime. Yeah, I appreciate that when
Speaker 1: we fly. What else merchandise? I know you're you've heard
Speaker 1: this once and you're just thinking, oh my god, why
Speaker 1: don't chuse you so bad? Well, thank god. There are
Speaker 1: places you can get t shirts and mugs, stickers, all
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff with dazzle red bubble. Also, they have
Speaker 1: all this stuff and you will find that linked. There's
Speaker 1: links to them in our website on the right hand side.
Speaker 1: So go out there and just bye bye bye do
Speaker 1: all your Christmas shopping now. And that's about it for
Speaker 1: me for this week. Again, if you have any special
Speaker 1: insights into Argo sixteen and love to hear him. And
Speaker 1: until next week. Uh rib achi, Oh, I got nothing.
Speaker 1: We're just going down by I guess. Don't call me Shirley.