WEBVTT - S3:EP 12 - Postscript: Christa

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<v Speaker 1>How are you doing.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm doing really good. It is the hottest day of

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<v Speaker 2>the year today, so oh no, I'm sitting in a

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<v Speaker 2>room where they can't have air conditioning.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh no, we better make this quick then, should we

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<v Speaker 1>just call it?

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<v Speaker 2>It's okay? Nope, it's okay.

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<v Speaker 1>From Rocco, Punch and Diheart Podcasts. This is the Turning

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<v Speaker 1>River Road I America. Lance. I have to ask, as

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<v Speaker 1>you are listening, how does it feel to have your

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<v Speaker 1>story out there in this way? It feels liberating.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the best way I can describe it is liberating,

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<v Speaker 2>especially to have my voice and Lindsay's voice heard simultaneously

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<v Speaker 2>and being able to hear the differences but also the

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<v Speaker 2>similarities in our stories. It feels very validating, honestly, in

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<v Speaker 2>what way. I think when you go through something like

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<v Speaker 2>she and I went through, there can sometimes be a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit of a sense of imposter syndrome or you've

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<v Speaker 2>been gas lit for so long, like maybe this didn't

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<v Speaker 2>actually happen this way, And so to hear her side,

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<v Speaker 2>which is arguably very different than what I experienced, very validating.

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<v Speaker 1>I can imagine, because I believe you and Lindsay hadn't

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<v Speaker 1>really been in contact. So you're hearing a lot suddenly

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<v Speaker 1>from her about many years that had passed, and she's

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<v Speaker 1>hearing about you, but you had never really spoken about

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<v Speaker 1>it with each other before.

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<v Speaker 2>We had not, So, I mean, we knew each other,

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<v Speaker 2>but we didn't run in the same circles at all. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>never really talk to her at length ever in my life.

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<v Speaker 2>And like I had said in the podcast, I knew

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<v Speaker 2>Jess very very well, but I didn't really know Lindsay.

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<v Speaker 1>At all, just the other youngest maiden, Lindsay's friends and

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<v Speaker 1>your friend.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, my parents and Jess's parents were very close. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>her parents lived with my mom all the way up

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<v Speaker 2>until twenty twenty three, from twenty twelve the end of

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twelve till the end of twenty twenty three.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't have contact with her parents anymore, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's my choice. But you can understand that our families

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<v Speaker 2>they were very intertwined. They kind of had a aunt

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<v Speaker 2>and uncle feel to them more than even my own

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<v Speaker 2>aunts and uncles. So I knew her well and her

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<v Speaker 2>brother and sister I knew them well too, but Lindsay

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't. So everything that I had heard from her,

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<v Speaker 2>it was projected in a way that spun a narrative, right.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you mean by that?

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<v Speaker 2>So when I would listen to interviews like the Hunt

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<v Speaker 2>with John Walsh, there was a twenty twenty in an

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<v Speaker 2>Instant or something like that that was put out about it,

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<v Speaker 2>it was all very heavily on the sexual aspect of it,

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<v Speaker 2>when there was so much more beneath the surface that

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<v Speaker 2>led to that happening. That this wasn't just like a

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<v Speaker 2>quote unquote sex cult. This was so much more and

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<v Speaker 2>there was so much more abuse that was taking place,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was very systemic.

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<v Speaker 1>The abuse took many forms, and people experienced it differently

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<v Speaker 1>or experienced different parts of the abuse. And that's something

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<v Speaker 1>I've been reflecting a lot on lately, is how different

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<v Speaker 1>people can have different experiences of the same person or

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<v Speaker 1>the same group. And I wonder how you've seen that

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<v Speaker 1>come up? Do you think that, Like, what are some

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<v Speaker 1>of the different versions of experiencing River Road that existed

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<v Speaker 1>for members?

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<v Speaker 2>There's a few that I am aware of. For example,

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<v Speaker 2>my mom, when she and I talk about this kind

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<v Speaker 2>of stuff, she I have a hard time to talk

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<v Speaker 2>with her about it at length anymore because she always

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<v Speaker 2>kind of brings it back to herself, and she said,

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<v Speaker 2>I just wanted to learn God's word, which is a

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<v Speaker 2>beautiful thing, right, And I think she has a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of guilt for what happened to me, And whenever I

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<v Speaker 2>start talking about that, she kind of gets really uncomfortable

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<v Speaker 2>because she just feels the consistent need to apologize. And

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<v Speaker 2>what she sees is we came together to do a

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<v Speaker 2>ministry and she was like, I didn't see the other

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<v Speaker 2>things that were going on beneath the surface. The reality

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<v Speaker 2>is I think she did. I think everybody did, but

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<v Speaker 2>nobody wanted to pay attention. When I say everybody, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean those who are old enough to cern. Obviously I

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<v Speaker 2>was a child. I was just there for the ride.

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<v Speaker 2>But I know that there are people who have said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, in hindsight, this is a very unsurprising thing

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<v Speaker 2>that happened. So you know, there's that she just wants

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<v Speaker 2>to remember the good things. I don't falter for it.

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<v Speaker 2>But then again, she also has a whole life previous

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<v Speaker 2>to that to fall back on, Right, she has a

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<v Speaker 2>frame of reference for what life is outside of the cult,

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<v Speaker 2>whereas I really didn't. So there's that I talked to

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<v Speaker 2>a woman after she listened to several episodes of the podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>She was very close to my parents and to the Bernards.

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<v Speaker 1>She actually Bernard's being Victor Bernard and his wife, Victor

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<v Speaker 1>being the leader of her best oon.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and she had left in nineteen ninety three, so

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<v Speaker 2>I was still a very young child. I was only

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<v Speaker 2>about a year and a half when she left. But

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<v Speaker 2>she was very dear to my parents, and even though

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<v Speaker 2>they never saw her again, they talked about her quite

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<v Speaker 2>a bit. So she reached out to me on social

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<v Speaker 2>media and she talked about how she was listening to

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<v Speaker 2>the podcast, and obviously a lot of the things that

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<v Speaker 2>she heard happened after she left, and she was asking

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<v Speaker 2>herself like, how did it get there? How did that happen?

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<v Speaker 2>How could that have happened? And she said, but to

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<v Speaker 2>be completely honest, I can see how it could have

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<v Speaker 2>gotten there. So you know, there's that. And then even

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<v Speaker 2>Lindsay and I have had disagreements, nothing like major, but

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<v Speaker 2>there were things that I have said in the podcast

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<v Speaker 2>that she didn't agree with and brought them to my attention. So,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, I had said that they were moving these

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<v Speaker 2>young people around to spy on us. And while I

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<v Speaker 2>do believe that that, in a sense is true. She

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<v Speaker 2>didn't see it that way, and I'll explain where she

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<v Speaker 2>came from and where I came from and sort of

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<v Speaker 2>the middle ground. That was probably the reality.

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<v Speaker 1>And you're talking about how your one time a maiden

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<v Speaker 1>was very quickly moved into your home and then very

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<v Speaker 1>quickly moved out again, which happened sometimes people moving around

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<v Speaker 1>all the time. You never know where you're going to live.

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<v Speaker 1>Even if you own a house, it's not really yours.

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<v Speaker 1>And you felt like that maiden maybe had been sent

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<v Speaker 1>there to kind of spy on your family.

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<v Speaker 2>And it wasn't just the maidens. There are quite a

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<v Speaker 2>few young people that were moved around very randomly, very quickly,

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<v Speaker 2>and it happened to us more than once.

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<v Speaker 1>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>Lindsey, when she heard that, she sent me a text

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<v Speaker 2>and said that she didn't believe that that was the case.

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<v Speaker 2>When the maidens were moved out from their home, it

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<v Speaker 2>was usually because Victor believed that they weren't doing well spiritually.

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<v Speaker 1>And kind as a punishment.

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<v Speaker 2>Kind of as a punishment. Yeah, that having been said,

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<v Speaker 2>I bounced this off of a couple of people who

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up with and grew up around, and what

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<v Speaker 2>I came to was maybe the intention that was told

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<v Speaker 2>to them wasn't, you know, go in there and report

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<v Speaker 2>back whatever you see. But these young people were so

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<v Speaker 2>conditioned to basically tell the leadership or even tell Victor

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<v Speaker 2>anything that they aw that could possibly be you know,

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<v Speaker 2>darkness or sin.

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<v Speaker 1>Everything has to be in the light. In other words,

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<v Speaker 1>Victory has to know everything. So you feel like you're

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<v Speaker 1>always being watched.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so even if Victor didn't say so, and so

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to move in with the Lesterre family, which

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<v Speaker 2>was my family, to report back to me what you

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<v Speaker 2>see would happen was and this I know this, I

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<v Speaker 2>know for a fact, and it wasn't any of the maidens.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a couple other young women who lived with

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<v Speaker 2>us who were around the same age as the maidens,

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<v Speaker 2>but they weren't the maidens. They lived with us, and

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<v Speaker 2>they would see things that happened in my home and

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<v Speaker 2>then they would report those to the leadership or to Victor,

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<v Speaker 2>and then my parents or even I would you know,

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<v Speaker 2>get in trouble for whatever it was. So I felt

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<v Speaker 2>the need to clarify that that there wasn't this network

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<v Speaker 2>of like spies, but it was a conditioning. It was

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<v Speaker 2>a manipulation to be foot soldiers to report back in

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<v Speaker 2>what they saw, and they absolutely did do that.

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<v Speaker 1>And it was a culture where it was really hard

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<v Speaker 1>to have privacy exactly and live the life that you wanted.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you had to live by certain rules and

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<v Speaker 1>if you didn't, you would hear about it.

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<v Speaker 2>What I was going to say was, did lindsay ever

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<v Speaker 2>do that? I have no idea because she never lived

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<v Speaker 2>with us, and that's not something that I feel is

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<v Speaker 2>worth nitpicking about. What I do know is that it happened.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, there are definitely differing stories, differing opinions.

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<v Speaker 2>There's still people who believe that they were there to

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<v Speaker 2>live the word of God.

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<v Speaker 1>Like my mom.

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<v Speaker 2>She doesn't deny what happened happened, but she has a

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<v Speaker 2>really hard time wrapping her head around that it could

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<v Speaker 2>have been all bad, you know, and I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>it was all bad, but she really doesn't want to

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<v Speaker 2>address the things that were.

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<v Speaker 1>She wants to hold on to the good things and

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<v Speaker 1>say some bad things happened exactly in inner conversations with

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<v Speaker 1>it exactly, And I think a lot of people can

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<v Speaker 1>relate to that when they're talking to parents, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>more extreme example, you're in a cult. Other examples, you

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<v Speaker 1>have issues from the family dynamic or things that happened

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<v Speaker 1>when you're a kid, and different people kind of focus

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<v Speaker 1>on different parts of the memory. That can make it

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<v Speaker 1>hard sometimes to talk about the past without feeling invalidated

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<v Speaker 1>or without feeling like you're kind of talking past each other.

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<v Speaker 2>Then my sister, she doesn't even want to listen to

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<v Speaker 2>this podcast, which is fine with me. She's in a

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<v Speaker 2>place that I know that a lot of people I

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<v Speaker 2>grew up with are where she just wants to leave

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<v Speaker 2>the past and the past and move forward. A couple

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<v Speaker 2>days after the first episode aired, I brought up the

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<v Speaker 2>podcast and was talking about some of the things in there,

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<v Speaker 2>and she said, you know, I know a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>bad things happened to you, and I'm really sorry about that,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's I feel like I'm in a really good

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<v Speaker 2>place in my life right now, and I think I

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<v Speaker 2>just need to leave the past and the past, and

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<v Speaker 2>I hope you can respect that, and of course I can't.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course I can't. But something that Lindsay and I

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<v Speaker 2>have talked about is how hard it is to have

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<v Speaker 2>all of these people that you grew up with and

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<v Speaker 2>who experienced the same life you experienced through the most part,

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<v Speaker 2>and nobody wants to talk about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and so.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm thankful because Lindsay and I are now talking, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm very grateful to have somebody that I can talk

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<v Speaker 2>to about things that come up for me, because sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>I will have the most random memory and to have

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<v Speaker 2>somebody like that I can just text and be like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I just thought of this, and isn't this crazy?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's really It's someone who actually gets there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a huge blessing, definitely very healing to have

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<v Speaker 2>somebody like that.

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<v Speaker 1>What are some of those memories that have been popping

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<v Speaker 1>up lately.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the things that popped up for me a

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<v Speaker 2>few weeks ago was going to heaven. We used to

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<v Speaker 2>say that we will be with Jesus Christ for all eternity.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a wonderful thing. But then somebody was like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>why would we want to be with somebody that we

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<v Speaker 2>don't even know? And then somebody was like, basically spun

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<v Speaker 2>together that because Victor was Jesus Christ in the flesh,

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<v Speaker 2>that who we were going to be with wasn't going

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<v Speaker 2>to be some stranger we had never seen before, but

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<v Speaker 2>that it was going to be Victor, that Victor was

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<v Speaker 2>going to take that personification of Jesus Christ.

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<v Speaker 1>That's such a stark statement that Victor is Jesus. Even

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<v Speaker 1>when you go to heaven, the Jesus you meet will

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<v Speaker 1>be Victor.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that's not biblical at all. And to be

0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:22.000
<v Speaker 2>quite frank, I feel as though I know Jesus and

0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.040
<v Speaker 2>when I see his face, I will know him and

0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:27.200
<v Speaker 2>it won't be Victor's face, and it won't be Victor's face,

0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:34.160
<v Speaker 2>thank God. But yeah, that was a really fun one

0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.480
<v Speaker 2>to like kind of remember remember and actually be able

0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:39.760
<v Speaker 2>to chuckle about and be like, we were really that

0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:41.920
<v Speaker 2>far gone.

0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:43.280
<v Speaker 1>Hindsight.

0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:45.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah.

0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.240
<v Speaker 1>In the series, we tell your story and we talk

0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.280
<v Speaker 1>a lot about your early childhood. You were in the

0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 1>group since you were born, essentially your parents knew Victor

0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.720
<v Speaker 1>for a long time, and we talk about kind of

0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.920
<v Speaker 1>your middle school years that were so terrible for you

0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:06.200
<v Speaker 1>because jan was insisting on these awful diets. And then

0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:10.240
<v Speaker 1>we kind of fast forward to your early twenties when

0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.280
<v Speaker 1>you're living in Washington State with other members of River

0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.520
<v Speaker 1>Road Fellowship and the news is coming out about Lindsay

0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.880
<v Speaker 1>and Jess going to the police about the sexual abuse.

0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:21.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm really curious if you could tell us about the

0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.680
<v Speaker 1>years in between, because there's probably about a decade in there.

0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.800
<v Speaker 1>What was going on or what are some of the

0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:32.280
<v Speaker 1>memories that are most vivid for you during that time

0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:34.480
<v Speaker 1>of your life.

0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.360
<v Speaker 2>During that time in my life, between the ages of

0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.440
<v Speaker 2>twelve and seventeen, we had moved back home to the

0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:45.880
<v Speaker 2>house that we owned on a satellite property. Originally it

0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:50.320
<v Speaker 2>was known as Eagle's Nest, and then Victor changed the

0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:56.320
<v Speaker 2>name to Melita, which is the biblical name for the

0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.520
<v Speaker 2>island of Malta. Oh, so I lived there from the

0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:05.840
<v Speaker 2>ages of twelve to seventeen without moving. Once my life

0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:11.600
<v Speaker 2>definitely calmed down a lot. Melita was kind of the

0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:18.280
<v Speaker 2>location where conforming nonconformists lived, if that makes any sense,

0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:21.600
<v Speaker 2>people who were a part of the church, but maybe

0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.919
<v Speaker 2>they didn't fit the idea or the mold of like

0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:29.560
<v Speaker 2>the model cult member. So we were a bit more

0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:34.399
<v Speaker 2>laid back. Melita was actually a really great nickname for

0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.280
<v Speaker 2>our property because it was kind of like an island,

0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:42.680
<v Speaker 2>the island of misfit toys, if you will. So we

0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:49.400
<v Speaker 2>lived there. It was during that time that I had

0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:56.400
<v Speaker 2>been sort of inadvertently looped in with a group of

0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.760
<v Speaker 2>young people that I don't think we really talked in

0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.880
<v Speaker 2>this series about, specifically known as the Shepherd's Core.

0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:07.359
<v Speaker 1>Yes, and the Shepherd We did not get into that.

0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which is a whole probably a whole other podcast series,

0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:14.240
<v Speaker 2>if we're being honest.

0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.159
<v Speaker 1>Because there were a number of groups, especially for young people,

0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.760
<v Speaker 1>like the Maidens, and Shepherd's Core was another way that

0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.399
<v Speaker 1>you're kind of showing your commitment, You're getting more deeply

0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.679
<v Speaker 1>involved with the church, so you kind of, it sounds like,

0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:29.960
<v Speaker 1>became part of the Shepherd's Core.

0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:34.359
<v Speaker 2>I did. Yes, the Shepherd's Core was originally I think

0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:38.080
<v Speaker 2>like six or seven younger people, and then in two

0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.240
<v Speaker 2>thousand and three, Victor opened it up to anyone over

0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:45.800
<v Speaker 2>the age of twelve. I was eventually kind of brought

0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:47.560
<v Speaker 2>in in two thousand and five.

0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.680
<v Speaker 1>And my impression is that the Shepherd's Core was kind

0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:55.439
<v Speaker 1>of like a very intense church youth group. Would you

0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:57.080
<v Speaker 1>say that's one way to look at it.

0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:02.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, It's a really funny thing to talk about because

0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:08.119
<v Speaker 2>at the inception of the Shepherd's Core, Victor's idea of

0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:10.919
<v Speaker 2>what it was going to be was going to be

0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:16.880
<v Speaker 2>very similar to the Waycore of the Way International.

0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.840
<v Speaker 1>Which is the group Victor was a part of before

0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.240
<v Speaker 1>creating River Road Fellowship. And this was kind of a

0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.960
<v Speaker 1>branch off of the Way, very influenced by the Way.

0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.800
<v Speaker 1>A lot of former members of the Way joined River Road.

0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:34.239
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so that was his kind of blueprint. What it

0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:39.280
<v Speaker 2>became was not that at all. There were Shepherd's Core

0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:42.960
<v Speaker 2>principles that we had to follow, there were verses that

0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.879
<v Speaker 2>we had to memorize. It became a name, just a

0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.520
<v Speaker 2>name only really you didn't really know. I never really

0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.560
<v Speaker 2>knew what it meant to be Shepherd's Core. He would

0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:59.280
<v Speaker 2>take us on like camping trips sometimes, or there would

0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.119
<v Speaker 2>be classes, and I know that I talked about the classes.

0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.920
<v Speaker 2>The original Shepherd's Core had been given, like these sweatshirts

0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:09.119
<v Speaker 2>that had the Shepherd's Core written on them. But it

0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:12.640
<v Speaker 2>was kind of like when Lindsay had to give back

0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.240
<v Speaker 2>all of the things that she was given when she

0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:19.720
<v Speaker 2>left the Maidens. If Victor didn't think that these young

0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:23.640
<v Speaker 2>people were like spiritually well, or if he got mad

0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.840
<v Speaker 2>at them, he made them turn in their sweats. I

0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.199
<v Speaker 2>never had to do that because by the time I

0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:32.399
<v Speaker 2>came around, nothing was being given to the Shepherd's Core.

0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.040
<v Speaker 2>It was just sort of a name that Victor would

0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:37.960
<v Speaker 2>throw around to make the young people feel good.

0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:42.720
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting how he creates these status symbols that he

0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.800
<v Speaker 1>gets to choose who has them, and so he can

0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:47.880
<v Speaker 1>give you that status or take it away at any

0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.320
<v Speaker 1>time for any reason, and you might not know why. Yeah,

0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.040
<v Speaker 1>and that just turned into such a mind game and

0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:54.320
<v Speaker 1>so manipulative.

0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:58.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So within the Shepherd's Core there was the Maidens,

0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:01.960
<v Speaker 2>which were kind of part of the Shepherd's corep but

0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:04.400
<v Speaker 2>kind of not. And then there was another group known

0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.880
<v Speaker 2>as Ariga's Band, which was seven young women who were

0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.199
<v Speaker 2>around the same age as the Maidens. Some of them

0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:14.760
<v Speaker 2>were younger sisters of the Maidens, and some of them

0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:19.760
<v Speaker 2>were maybe young women who had joined the church after

0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:24.320
<v Speaker 2>the Maidens were formed. And then there was a men's

0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:27.119
<v Speaker 2>group that was eight young men and they were known

0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:33.760
<v Speaker 2>as the Gilliad Gamblers. And from my understanding, these groups

0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:38.439
<v Speaker 2>they'd lived together, they did all their stuff together. Ariga's Band,

0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:42.520
<v Speaker 2>they had a commitment similar to the Maidens, to remain unmarried.

0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:48.639
<v Speaker 2>The Gilliad Gamblers, from my understanding, It's funny because my

0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:54.160
<v Speaker 2>brother in law's a former Gilliad gambler. They had a commitment.

0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:57.800
<v Speaker 2>I believe it was for seven years to remain unmarried

0:21:57.800 --> 0:21:59.719
<v Speaker 2>and then they could get married if they wanted to.

0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.360
<v Speaker 1>So interesting, how the girls and the boys are treated differently.

0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:08.000
<v Speaker 1>Where the girls groups you're never getting married, right? Could

0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:10.760
<v Speaker 1>you talk about a little bit about how men and

0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.560
<v Speaker 1>women or girls and boys were treated differently in the church.

0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:20.760
<v Speaker 2>Women were absolutely expected to be quieter, more submissive. The

0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:23.680
<v Speaker 2>way we dressed was more regulated, the way we talked

0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:26.000
<v Speaker 2>was more regulated, where we went was regulated.

0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.200
<v Speaker 1>Was the rule of walking into's only applied to women

0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:30.639
<v Speaker 1>and girls?

0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:31.040
<v Speaker 2>Yes?

0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:33.359
<v Speaker 1>Wow, I didn't know that.

0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.959
<v Speaker 2>Yes, men could go wherever they wanted, whenever they wanted.

0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:43.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was. It was a very that's so oppressive, Yeah,

0:22:43.080 --> 0:23:20.159
<v Speaker 1>very oppressives. One thing I've been wondering about is I

0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:23.560
<v Speaker 1>remember when you were living in Washington and you finally

0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:27.800
<v Speaker 1>had that brave moment where you said I'm leaving. I know,

0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:30.920
<v Speaker 1>right beforehand you were dating someone at the time who

0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:35.480
<v Speaker 1>you had met through a coworker, and you finally told

0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:37.520
<v Speaker 1>him at one point I'm in a cult and I

0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.520
<v Speaker 1>need to get out and I don't know how. And

0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:43.919
<v Speaker 1>it's really interesting to me that use the word cult.

0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:48.040
<v Speaker 1>And I'm curious, when did that transition happen where you

0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:50.720
<v Speaker 1>actually in your brain. I'm guessing that's the first time

0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:54.240
<v Speaker 1>you said it out loud. And I'm wondering when in

0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:57.600
<v Speaker 1>your brain you started thinking this is a cult that

0:23:57.680 --> 0:23:58.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm in.

0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:02.679
<v Speaker 2>That's a really great question, because it actually is a

0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:06.399
<v Speaker 2>lot earlier than one might think. People always called us

0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:09.520
<v Speaker 2>a cult, you know, and Victor would talk about people

0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:12.000
<v Speaker 2>who called us a cult and how you know they

0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:18.200
<v Speaker 2>were wrong and really yeah. And I remember the mother

0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:21.760
<v Speaker 2>of one of the grown women in our church coming

0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:27.040
<v Speaker 2>to visit at one point and she was telling her daughter.

0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:29.399
<v Speaker 2>She's like, you were in a cult. And the daughter

0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:31.320
<v Speaker 2>was like, no, one'm not. And she said, you guys

0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:35.160
<v Speaker 2>live together, you eat together, you work together, you buy

0:24:35.160 --> 0:24:39.080
<v Speaker 2>food together. She's like, for all intents and purposes, this

0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:43.440
<v Speaker 2>is a cult. And the daughter, the woman in the church,

0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:46.000
<v Speaker 2>she said, oh, I guess I guess it is. Well,

0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:48.040
<v Speaker 2>that's great, and she just kind of like moved on.

0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:50.480
<v Speaker 2>So I kind of always just had it in the

0:24:50.520 --> 0:24:52.560
<v Speaker 2>back of my head that like, yes, we were a cult,

0:24:52.600 --> 0:24:55.480
<v Speaker 2>but we were like the good kind of cult and

0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:58.359
<v Speaker 2>that it was fine. It wasn't like Jonestown where we

0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:02.040
<v Speaker 2>were all gonna drink something and die like we would

0:25:02.080 --> 0:25:05.800
<v Speaker 2>never do that. So that was sort of when the

0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:10.359
<v Speaker 2>seed was planted. But when it was like solidified was

0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:17.160
<v Speaker 2>when I originally watched the story with Jess and Lindsay

0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:21.840
<v Speaker 2>and they talked about it as being a cult. That

0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:24.359
<v Speaker 2>was when it solidified for me that yes, it was

0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:28.520
<v Speaker 2>indeed a cult, and yes it was not the quote

0:25:28.560 --> 0:25:31.600
<v Speaker 2>unquote good kind of cult. That it was very very dark.

0:25:32.920 --> 0:25:35.879
<v Speaker 1>What do you think made it a cult? You know,

0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:40.440
<v Speaker 1>beyond the obvious terrible abuses that were happening. If someone

0:25:40.520 --> 0:25:43.520
<v Speaker 1>is joining a new group, joining a new religion, a

0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:48.119
<v Speaker 1>new community, what should people watch out for or what

0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:48.879
<v Speaker 1>did you see?

0:25:48.960 --> 0:25:51.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the list goes on, but a big one

0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:55.119
<v Speaker 2>is isolation. If they are telling you that you can't

0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:59.199
<v Speaker 2>talk to your family or your friends, that you have

0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:03.760
<v Speaker 2>to cut those ties, that is cult red flag one

0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:06.840
<v Speaker 2>oh one. In my opinion, I think that there is

0:26:06.920 --> 0:26:11.480
<v Speaker 2>definitely the opportunity and the availability for people to come

0:26:11.520 --> 0:26:15.360
<v Speaker 2>together and work together and live in a communal environment,

0:26:16.160 --> 0:26:18.760
<v Speaker 2>and I think that there is the availability for it

0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:21.600
<v Speaker 2>to be good but when there is somebody, when there

0:26:21.680 --> 0:26:25.080
<v Speaker 2>is a figurehead in the middle, that is everything's trickling

0:26:25.119 --> 0:26:30.320
<v Speaker 2>down from you cease to have free will because everything

0:26:30.359 --> 0:26:34.200
<v Speaker 2>revolves around this one person. And if you look at

0:26:34.200 --> 0:26:38.680
<v Speaker 2>cults throughout time, that's really the determining factors that there

0:26:38.720 --> 0:26:43.880
<v Speaker 2>is this one figurehead that is not God, not Jesus.

0:26:44.760 --> 0:26:47.679
<v Speaker 2>It's a person who has put themselves in a position

0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:51.720
<v Speaker 2>of authority and has started making these rules and began

0:26:51.800 --> 0:26:57.280
<v Speaker 2>to isolate you into this community. I think that that

0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:01.680
<v Speaker 2>is the main thing that people need to look out for.

0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:05.880
<v Speaker 2>But also it's not lost on me that a lot

0:27:05.880 --> 0:27:12.240
<v Speaker 2>of people realize that too late, they're too far emeshed.

0:27:13.000 --> 0:27:15.679
<v Speaker 1>It can feel like a fine line at first, especially

0:27:16.280 --> 0:27:19.679
<v Speaker 1>because we all want someone who has all the answers

0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:22.639
<v Speaker 1>or who can guide us. We all want to mentor

0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:26.119
<v Speaker 1>we all want someone to help us figure out what

0:27:26.240 --> 0:27:30.080
<v Speaker 1>to do in life. And once you find someone you trust,

0:27:30.320 --> 0:27:35.920
<v Speaker 1>it very quickly can veer into an unhealthy balance of

0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:40.000
<v Speaker 1>how much they're influencing you. And yeah, that can be

0:27:40.040 --> 0:27:43.359
<v Speaker 1>hard to identify sometimes, and it does seem to me

0:27:43.440 --> 0:27:45.040
<v Speaker 1>that it can come in different forms. I mean, sometimes

0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:49.560
<v Speaker 1>it's religion, sometimes it's not religion based, but it is

0:27:49.600 --> 0:27:56.040
<v Speaker 1>a controlling situation. Yeah, I'm curious, as you listened back

0:27:56.119 --> 0:28:00.639
<v Speaker 1>to the series, you're hearing yourself, you're hearing Lin's story,

0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:05.560
<v Speaker 1>did anything surprise you or did anything kind of make

0:28:05.640 --> 0:28:07.240
<v Speaker 1>you see things differently?

0:28:08.200 --> 0:28:11.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, I can't say that there was necessarily like

0:28:11.960 --> 0:28:17.280
<v Speaker 2>an aha moment for me. There were definitely things that

0:28:17.960 --> 0:28:23.639
<v Speaker 2>Lindsay said in general that I was like, Oh, thank

0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:31.719
<v Speaker 2>god she remembers it that way too, because sometimes you

0:28:31.760 --> 0:28:33.760
<v Speaker 2>wonder if you're remembering it correctly, like I said at

0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:37.439
<v Speaker 2>the beginning, and you want to make sure that you

0:28:37.480 --> 0:28:42.400
<v Speaker 2>are speaking the truth because if you're not, then the

0:28:42.440 --> 0:28:44.720
<v Speaker 2>credibility of all of our stories goes out the window

0:28:45.040 --> 0:28:49.600
<v Speaker 2>in my opinion. So I guess that that was a

0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:52.760
<v Speaker 2>really really big deal for me, is like hearing actually

0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:57.520
<v Speaker 2>hearing her speak and tell her story her way. Like

0:28:57.560 --> 0:29:00.520
<v Speaker 2>I said earlier on the podcast, how her story was

0:29:00.520 --> 0:29:03.000
<v Speaker 2>so spun to fit a narrative of that this was

0:29:03.040 --> 0:29:06.240
<v Speaker 2>a sex cult and that gave their young daughters over

0:29:06.320 --> 0:29:07.600
<v Speaker 2>to this man.

0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:10.600
<v Speaker 1>You're talking about in some of the media contry, because

0:29:10.640 --> 0:29:13.239
<v Speaker 1>the media convergation outside of interviews, we've talked about this,

0:29:13.400 --> 0:29:15.560
<v Speaker 1>How yes, you felt like a lot of the media

0:29:15.680 --> 0:29:19.560
<v Speaker 1>coverage it didn't feel right to you, right, or how

0:29:19.560 --> 0:29:19.880
<v Speaker 1>would you?

0:29:20.160 --> 0:29:23.239
<v Speaker 2>It didn't go It felt very inaccurate. And then there

0:29:23.240 --> 0:29:25.920
<v Speaker 2>were like a lot of third party tellings of whatever

0:29:25.960 --> 0:29:28.280
<v Speaker 2>these podcasters heard on the media, and I was like,

0:29:28.400 --> 0:29:31.080
<v Speaker 2>none of this is accurate, Like this is such a

0:29:31.200 --> 0:29:35.600
<v Speaker 2>skewed telling of my life, and it made me so mad.

0:29:36.320 --> 0:29:38.600
<v Speaker 2>And I actually reached out to a podcaster that was

0:29:38.640 --> 0:29:41.560
<v Speaker 2>like a third party narrator of the story who just

0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:43.920
<v Speaker 2>basically gathered all the information that they had from the

0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:46.960
<v Speaker 2>media and talked about River read Fellowship on their podcast,

0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:52.560
<v Speaker 2>and Oh, I was furious, and I was like, they

0:29:52.600 --> 0:29:54.680
<v Speaker 2>don't have the story there this none of what they're

0:29:54.680 --> 0:29:58.680
<v Speaker 2>saying is even like factually accurate. And I actually reached

0:29:58.680 --> 0:30:00.880
<v Speaker 2>out to them on Instead Graham and was like, Hey,

0:30:00.920 --> 0:30:02.440
<v Speaker 2>I grew up in this cult. If you want to

0:30:02.440 --> 0:30:05.360
<v Speaker 2>know what really happened, go ahead and reach out. They

0:30:05.400 --> 0:30:09.280
<v Speaker 2>never did, which is fine, but that was really what

0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:12.480
<v Speaker 2>made me want to start talking about my story and

0:30:14.680 --> 0:30:17.760
<v Speaker 2>really like talk about the nuance of what was going

0:30:17.800 --> 0:30:24.080
<v Speaker 2>on behind the scenes of this big blow up that happened,

0:30:24.720 --> 0:30:28.400
<v Speaker 2>because there's just it was, it went so much deeper,

0:30:29.120 --> 0:30:34.680
<v Speaker 2>and there was so much more going on that led

0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:40.360
<v Speaker 2>to this terrible thing that happened with these young girls.

0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:47.040
<v Speaker 1>So hearing Lindsay now tell her story, that felt yeah,

0:30:47.080 --> 0:30:47.560
<v Speaker 1>what did that?

0:30:47.840 --> 0:30:49.880
<v Speaker 2>It felt full It kind of felt full circle in

0:30:49.920 --> 0:30:52.680
<v Speaker 2>a way, I guess, and realizing that that wasn't her, like,

0:30:53.560 --> 0:30:57.080
<v Speaker 2>oh my god. They took soundbites, spits and pieces to

0:30:57.160 --> 0:30:59.760
<v Speaker 2>make it sound a certain way and get the story across.

0:31:00.920 --> 0:31:05.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're saying that the other coverage when sometimes it

0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:07.960
<v Speaker 1>felt inaccurate. It wasn't Lindsay's doing it. I don't know.

0:31:08.000 --> 0:31:09.080
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't your doing.

0:31:09.240 --> 0:31:11.880
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't Lindsay's doing. It was people piecemealing things together

0:31:11.960 --> 0:31:14.800
<v Speaker 2>to make a story, and which is fine. The end

0:31:14.840 --> 0:31:18.360
<v Speaker 2>result was Victor Bernard was put in jail. That was

0:31:18.360 --> 0:31:22.280
<v Speaker 2>what needed to happen. But also Lindsay deserved to be heard.

0:31:22.400 --> 0:31:27.560
<v Speaker 2>She deserved to share her truth, and so listening to

0:31:27.840 --> 0:31:32.120
<v Speaker 2>her share her story on this podcast, I was just

0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:34.760
<v Speaker 2>so happy for her. I'm so happy that she's gotten

0:31:34.800 --> 0:31:39.760
<v Speaker 2>so much healing and that she is living a wonderful,

0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:44.680
<v Speaker 2>good life with her child, and that she seems happy

0:31:45.280 --> 0:31:48.360
<v Speaker 2>and that she still is willing to speak about this

0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:52.440
<v Speaker 2>and that her intention is very similar to mine, and

0:31:52.480 --> 0:31:57.800
<v Speaker 2>that this story, our experiences can help people, can help

0:31:57.840 --> 0:32:01.240
<v Speaker 2>other survivors, can help people trying to figure their way

0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:04.640
<v Speaker 2>out of these situations. Our stories can help with that.

0:32:40.680 --> 0:32:43.720
<v Speaker 1>I know that once you left River Road Fellowship, it

0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:46.840
<v Speaker 1>was a really dark time for you. You talked about

0:32:46.960 --> 0:32:50.280
<v Speaker 1>what do I do with my life now? I'm leaving

0:32:50.280 --> 0:32:54.400
<v Speaker 1>behind everything and everyone I know. And I wonder if

0:32:54.440 --> 0:32:57.200
<v Speaker 1>you could talk about some of the turning points or

0:32:57.360 --> 0:33:01.520
<v Speaker 1>the stages you went through to get to your life now.

0:33:01.800 --> 0:33:04.920
<v Speaker 2>How much time do we have? So I left in

0:33:04.960 --> 0:33:08.400
<v Speaker 2>March of twenty fifteen, right after Victor Bernard was arrested

0:33:08.440 --> 0:33:11.120
<v Speaker 2>in Brazil. He hadn't even been extradited to the United

0:33:11.160 --> 0:33:13.440
<v Speaker 2>States yet, he was still in prison in Brazil, and

0:33:13.480 --> 0:33:16.920
<v Speaker 2>there was a lot surrounding that. A big turning point

0:33:16.920 --> 0:33:20.560
<v Speaker 2>for me, Like maybe the first turning point was when

0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:24.120
<v Speaker 2>I got in touch with one of the former clergy

0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:28.880
<v Speaker 2>in River Road. He had actually left the previous year

0:33:29.560 --> 0:33:32.960
<v Speaker 2>after he was kind of pushed out because he had

0:33:33.120 --> 0:33:35.080
<v Speaker 2>called out some of the stuff that was going on

0:33:35.480 --> 0:33:40.440
<v Speaker 2>in Spokane very bluntly, very frankly, and there was a

0:33:40.480 --> 0:33:44.920
<v Speaker 2>lot of dishonesty going on about why he left. So

0:33:45.160 --> 0:33:47.800
<v Speaker 2>when I left, I got in touch with his son

0:33:49.800 --> 0:33:51.360
<v Speaker 2>and I said, get me in touch with your dad,

0:33:52.320 --> 0:33:55.720
<v Speaker 2>because this is a man that I trusted. I knew

0:33:55.800 --> 0:33:58.600
<v Speaker 2>that something had to have happened that caused him to

0:33:58.640 --> 0:33:59.080
<v Speaker 2>walk out.

0:34:00.280 --> 0:34:01.800
<v Speaker 1>This is you want to know. You want to know

0:34:01.840 --> 0:34:02.440
<v Speaker 1>what happened.

0:34:02.520 --> 0:34:06.240
<v Speaker 2>This is a man that Victor called his true son

0:34:06.640 --> 0:34:09.840
<v Speaker 2>in the faith. Like, if he left, something had to

0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:14.120
<v Speaker 2>have happened. That was a really big deal. Okay. So

0:34:15.239 --> 0:34:17.719
<v Speaker 2>his son got me in touch with him and I

0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:21.640
<v Speaker 2>ended up going over to their house for dinner, and

0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:24.080
<v Speaker 2>after dinner, he and I sat out on the porch

0:34:24.160 --> 0:34:26.799
<v Speaker 2>and he's like, so, you said, you wanted to talk

0:34:26.840 --> 0:34:28.399
<v Speaker 2>to me, what can I help you with? And I said,

0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:31.120
<v Speaker 2>I want to know what happened. I want to know

0:34:31.160 --> 0:34:35.080
<v Speaker 2>why we're sitting here today and not back there still.

0:34:35.120 --> 0:34:40.120
<v Speaker 2>And he basically told me that the church had gotten

0:34:40.160 --> 0:34:43.360
<v Speaker 2>so far from the standard of the Word of God

0:34:43.520 --> 0:34:47.480
<v Speaker 2>that he just couldn't watch it anymore. And he had

0:34:47.719 --> 0:34:53.920
<v Speaker 2>shown the leaders in Spokane in the Bible where things

0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:59.080
<v Speaker 2>were going wrong, and they sent him away. So that

0:34:59.120 --> 0:35:00.920
<v Speaker 2>was a big turning point for me to have some

0:35:01.040 --> 0:35:05.719
<v Speaker 2>like validation that what I experienced was being seen by

0:35:05.840 --> 0:35:09.640
<v Speaker 2>other people. Other people were being abused by this abuse

0:35:09.680 --> 0:35:10.080
<v Speaker 2>of power.

0:35:12.080 --> 0:35:14.960
<v Speaker 1>It seems that when you first left was really the hardest,

0:35:15.000 --> 0:35:15.840
<v Speaker 1>hardest period.

0:35:16.360 --> 0:35:20.520
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know how to be a person. It was

0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:24.680
<v Speaker 2>literally like that I did not know how to function

0:35:24.760 --> 0:35:27.320
<v Speaker 2>in a world where my life wasn't regulated. I didn't

0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:30.160
<v Speaker 2>know what to eat, I knew nothing. I didn't know

0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:33.000
<v Speaker 2>how to manage my emotions because everything had just been

0:35:33.000 --> 0:35:36.840
<v Speaker 2>pushed down, so I didn't know how to manage and

0:35:36.920 --> 0:35:40.040
<v Speaker 2>regulate my emotions at all. It was just like I

0:35:40.120 --> 0:35:42.360
<v Speaker 2>was a teenager, I was a child.

0:35:43.280 --> 0:35:45.360
<v Speaker 1>How did that come up in your life?

0:35:45.480 --> 0:35:49.400
<v Speaker 2>Relationships? Relationships? You know. I had been casually seeing this

0:35:49.480 --> 0:35:53.840
<v Speaker 2>guy and that ended very poorly. I had been raised

0:35:54.160 --> 0:35:56.000
<v Speaker 2>to just let people walk all over me, and he

0:35:56.160 --> 0:35:58.640
<v Speaker 2>sometimes would be like, you're acting like you're twelve, Like

0:35:59.120 --> 0:36:03.760
<v Speaker 2>grow up. I'm like, I that's because I was emotionally

0:36:03.840 --> 0:36:07.360
<v Speaker 2>stunted at twelve, Like I don't know how to be

0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:10.760
<v Speaker 2>a person. And that was actually like, actually a real

0:36:10.800 --> 0:36:13.560
<v Speaker 2>concept to me. That was like, I think that all

0:36:13.600 --> 0:36:15.359
<v Speaker 2>of these things are coming to the surface because they

0:36:15.480 --> 0:36:16.880
<v Speaker 2>couldn't for so long.

0:36:16.800 --> 0:36:19.359
<v Speaker 1>These things being like kind of emotional.

0:36:18.880 --> 0:36:24.239
<v Speaker 2>Emotions experiences like suddenly I'm going through some sort of

0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:29.720
<v Speaker 2>like psychological puberty of sorts, Like it's all just coming

0:36:29.760 --> 0:36:33.280
<v Speaker 2>to this, you know, rushing in and my whole world

0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:36.640
<v Speaker 2>is new, and it's overwhelmingly new, and it's not that great.

0:36:37.440 --> 0:36:41.399
<v Speaker 2>And I didn't know what to do with myself, and

0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:45.080
<v Speaker 2>so I drank a lot to non whatever I was feeling,

0:36:45.600 --> 0:36:48.520
<v Speaker 2>put myself in a lot of dangerous situations with men,

0:36:49.719 --> 0:36:52.359
<v Speaker 2>which I know that Lindsay talked about as well. And

0:36:52.600 --> 0:36:55.279
<v Speaker 2>it is a miracle that I am alive. Let's just

0:36:55.360 --> 0:36:58.240
<v Speaker 2>put it that way. Yeah. I poisoned myself with alcohol

0:36:58.239 --> 0:37:01.360
<v Speaker 2>on more than one occasion, ended up in the psych word.

0:37:02.360 --> 0:37:06.120
<v Speaker 2>It was just really, really, really bad. Moved home to

0:37:06.120 --> 0:37:09.239
<v Speaker 2>help take care of my dad, got away from the

0:37:09.280 --> 0:37:13.160
<v Speaker 2>pain of like the environment of Spokane, but the pain

0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:16.040
<v Speaker 2>was still very much within me. I didn't know how

0:37:16.040 --> 0:37:18.839
<v Speaker 2>to deal. I got involved with another really unhealthy young

0:37:18.880 --> 0:37:23.400
<v Speaker 2>man that ended very badly. After he broke up with

0:37:23.480 --> 0:37:27.520
<v Speaker 2>me in September of twenty sixteen, I reached a point

0:37:27.600 --> 0:37:30.960
<v Speaker 2>of I was so broken. I just didn't want to exist.

0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:33.520
<v Speaker 2>I did not want to exist. I didn't want to die.

0:37:34.280 --> 0:37:37.360
<v Speaker 2>But I also didn't want to live. And I was

0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:42.080
<v Speaker 2>in the shower and I asked God. I said, God,

0:37:42.120 --> 0:37:45.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if this is even possible, but I

0:37:45.960 --> 0:37:51.800
<v Speaker 2>need you to heal me. And immediately the thought popped

0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:54.799
<v Speaker 2>into my head that I needed to get sober, I

0:37:54.840 --> 0:37:58.919
<v Speaker 2>needed to quit drinking, and so I did. That day,

0:37:59.280 --> 0:38:02.000
<v Speaker 2>I reached out to a person I barely knew to

0:38:02.040 --> 0:38:06.280
<v Speaker 2>take me to a recovery meeting and I started building

0:38:06.320 --> 0:38:09.000
<v Speaker 2>a bit of a community there and that was a

0:38:09.000 --> 0:38:11.080
<v Speaker 2>big growth, time of growth for me. I started going

0:38:11.120 --> 0:38:14.400
<v Speaker 2>to therapy during that time, I started learning how to heal.

0:38:15.600 --> 0:38:20.000
<v Speaker 2>So I got into another relationship and then broke up

0:38:20.040 --> 0:38:24.839
<v Speaker 2>with him middle of COVID while my dad was dying.

0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:29.080
<v Speaker 2>After that, met my husband. One thing I wanted in

0:38:29.160 --> 0:38:34.720
<v Speaker 2>a partner was somebody who wanted to better themselves, wanted

0:38:34.760 --> 0:38:40.080
<v Speaker 2>to grow, somebody that I could grow with and build

0:38:40.120 --> 0:38:42.360
<v Speaker 2>off of and they could build off me. And I

0:38:42.440 --> 0:38:48.120
<v Speaker 2>found that in my husband. I lost my dad in

0:38:48.160 --> 0:38:51.439
<v Speaker 2>October of twenty twenty, twenty twenty one had my son.

0:38:51.640 --> 0:38:53.800
<v Speaker 2>These are all like turning points things, you know, growth,

0:38:53.960 --> 0:38:58.279
<v Speaker 2>times of growth. My husband is a recovering addict, and

0:38:59.040 --> 0:39:02.759
<v Speaker 2>thirteen days after my son was born, he overdosed.

0:39:04.600 --> 0:39:06.920
<v Speaker 1>And I'm so sorry, Krista.

0:39:07.239 --> 0:39:13.279
<v Speaker 2>And he was revived, and there is no reason logically,

0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:19.160
<v Speaker 2>scientifically that he should be alive today because he was

0:39:19.160 --> 0:39:23.520
<v Speaker 2>on some very quiet side street, in a very quiet neighborhood,

0:39:24.600 --> 0:39:27.520
<v Speaker 2>in his truck when it happened. So it wasn't like

0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:32.239
<v Speaker 2>he was out in public. He was just alone and

0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:37.319
<v Speaker 2>somebody found him and revived him. And my therapist had

0:39:37.320 --> 0:39:40.439
<v Speaker 2>said to me, because I couldn't make sense of it,

0:39:40.560 --> 0:39:42.800
<v Speaker 2>I was like, I don't understand why this, how this happened.

0:39:42.840 --> 0:39:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Like I'm happy he's alive, but I don't understand why

0:39:46.440 --> 0:39:49.640
<v Speaker 2>or how. And she said, Krista, sometimes miracles just happen

0:39:50.480 --> 0:39:53.799
<v Speaker 2>and you just have to be okay with that. It

0:39:53.920 --> 0:39:58.280
<v Speaker 2>was really just like blood. And it was in those

0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:04.160
<v Speaker 2>moments following that I started to actually believe in God again.

0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:08.320
<v Speaker 2>I started realizing that my God was a God.

0:40:08.160 --> 0:40:08.800
<v Speaker 1>Of love.

0:40:10.560 --> 0:40:14.840
<v Speaker 2>And a god of healing and forgiveness and patience and goodness,

0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:19.400
<v Speaker 2>and that God never wanted to hurt me, that he

0:40:19.480 --> 0:40:23.520
<v Speaker 2>only wanted to see me thrive, and that the people

0:40:23.560 --> 0:40:28.080
<v Speaker 2>who said that they were acting in God's name were

0:40:28.440 --> 0:40:34.160
<v Speaker 2>false prophets essentially, and that they were liars earlier this year,

0:40:34.880 --> 0:40:37.200
<v Speaker 2>I finally had the courage to walk into a church again,

0:40:37.280 --> 0:40:40.879
<v Speaker 2>which is something I never swore i'd do. And God

0:40:40.920 --> 0:40:44.240
<v Speaker 2>met me there, and I don't know what you believe, Erica,

0:40:44.440 --> 0:40:48.240
<v Speaker 2>but that's what I believe in my heart.

0:40:49.520 --> 0:40:55.719
<v Speaker 1>It's so powerful to hear how you've built a life

0:40:55.920 --> 0:41:00.479
<v Speaker 1>that focuses on being loving and focuses on the love

0:41:00.560 --> 0:41:05.440
<v Speaker 1>part and not the punishment and the blame and all

0:41:05.480 --> 0:41:07.200
<v Speaker 1>of the self criticism you had to live in for

0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:11.200
<v Speaker 1>so long and to find something that can lead to

0:41:11.360 --> 0:41:14.560
<v Speaker 1>just this happy life that you have. I'm sure they're

0:41:14.719 --> 0:41:15.719
<v Speaker 1>not happy parts too.

0:41:16.440 --> 0:41:19.960
<v Speaker 2>There are definitely not happy parts. There's definitely still stuff

0:41:20.000 --> 0:41:24.640
<v Speaker 2>I struggle with. I'm still very traumatized when it comes

0:41:24.680 --> 0:41:28.440
<v Speaker 2>to eating and diet, which is something that I am

0:41:28.520 --> 0:41:32.480
<v Speaker 2>in therapy for now. That is a big I actually

0:41:32.520 --> 0:41:34.600
<v Speaker 2>should bring that up that that was a big aha

0:41:34.680 --> 0:41:36.920
<v Speaker 2>moment I did have when I was listening to myself

0:41:36.960 --> 0:41:41.239
<v Speaker 2>and I realized that my eating patterns were disordered, and

0:41:41.280 --> 0:41:44.840
<v Speaker 2>they've been disordered since I was a teenager. So that

0:41:44.920 --> 0:41:48.360
<v Speaker 2>coming to light was a big deal for me. And

0:41:48.400 --> 0:41:50.360
<v Speaker 2>I was able to get back into therapy with my

0:41:50.800 --> 0:41:55.240
<v Speaker 2>old therapist, so I get to address that Nowjince, she's wonderful.

0:41:56.320 --> 0:41:58.959
<v Speaker 1>You realize that you are still carrying some of those

0:42:00.120 --> 0:42:02.200
<v Speaker 1>ordered behavior as a way of thinking.

0:42:02.000 --> 0:42:07.120
<v Speaker 2>Yes, absolutely, and I will probably always, you know, to

0:42:07.160 --> 0:42:11.360
<v Speaker 2>some extent, carry some part of it with me. It

0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:14.680
<v Speaker 2>was my entire childhood, so it's not like I can

0:42:14.719 --> 0:42:20.239
<v Speaker 2>erase it. But I think even if I still have

0:42:20.360 --> 0:42:22.799
<v Speaker 2>things that I need to heal from, which I know

0:42:22.880 --> 0:42:26.560
<v Speaker 2>I do, I can address it in a healthy way

0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:30.759
<v Speaker 2>where it doesn't take me out emotionally physically, because I

0:42:30.840 --> 0:42:32.240
<v Speaker 2>have such a beautiful life.

0:42:32.239 --> 0:42:34.839
<v Speaker 1>Now, what is your life like now?

0:42:35.600 --> 0:42:38.560
<v Speaker 2>It's very simple, which is what I wanted. I wanted

0:42:38.600 --> 0:42:44.560
<v Speaker 2>a simple life. I live in a three bedroom apartment

0:42:45.400 --> 0:42:49.560
<v Speaker 2>in a college neighborhood. I have two dogs that are

0:42:50.120 --> 0:42:56.600
<v Speaker 2>very crazy. I have a wonderful husband that I've been

0:42:56.600 --> 0:42:59.759
<v Speaker 2>married to for almost three years. Our third anniversary is

0:43:00.320 --> 0:43:05.080
<v Speaker 2>coming up. I have a son and a daughter who

0:43:05.160 --> 0:43:09.200
<v Speaker 2>are the loves of my life. And I know that

0:43:09.239 --> 0:43:12.279
<v Speaker 2>I've talked about my son in this podcast, but since then,

0:43:12.320 --> 0:43:19.680
<v Speaker 2>I've had a daughter. And she is wild, and I

0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:23.759
<v Speaker 2>say that in the best sense of the word. She

0:43:23.960 --> 0:43:27.640
<v Speaker 2>is wild, and she is joyful, and she is fierce,

0:43:28.840 --> 0:43:32.200
<v Speaker 2>and she is fearless, and I kind of said tongue

0:43:32.239 --> 0:43:34.239
<v Speaker 2>in cheek a couple of weeks ago to somebody, I said,

0:43:34.239 --> 0:43:36.440
<v Speaker 2>I think Maddie is everything that I would have been

0:43:36.520 --> 0:43:38.920
<v Speaker 2>had I not had my entire personality beat out of

0:43:38.920 --> 0:43:42.440
<v Speaker 2>me at a young age. And I'm just so happy

0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:46.799
<v Speaker 2>for her that nobody's ever gonna take that from her,

0:43:46.880 --> 0:43:50.319
<v Speaker 2>That she gets to grow up and shine and be

0:43:50.520 --> 0:43:54.239
<v Speaker 2>bright and be loud and people are gonna love her

0:43:54.280 --> 0:44:00.480
<v Speaker 2>for it, and that is so amazing to me. I

0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:04.400
<v Speaker 2>don't need that. I have built my life around whatever

0:44:05.360 --> 0:44:09.160
<v Speaker 2>happened to me and have integrated that into who I

0:44:09.200 --> 0:44:11.680
<v Speaker 2>am now, and it's, you know, maybe not who I

0:44:11.719 --> 0:44:14.160
<v Speaker 2>would have been had I not had those experiences, but

0:44:14.280 --> 0:44:17.759
<v Speaker 2>I love myself. I love who I've become. But to

0:44:17.800 --> 0:44:21.120
<v Speaker 2>see people just light up when they see my daughter's

0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:25.719
<v Speaker 2>face because she has so much joy and she's so fearless,

0:44:27.600 --> 0:44:30.000
<v Speaker 2>it's healing. It's so healing to watch.

0:44:32.160 --> 0:44:34.520
<v Speaker 1>Is there anything that comes to mind that you want

0:44:34.520 --> 0:44:37.680
<v Speaker 1>to share or you want people to hear before we close?

0:44:39.560 --> 0:44:42.200
<v Speaker 2>I looked up a recent mug shot of Victor Bernard

0:44:43.360 --> 0:44:46.680
<v Speaker 2>a few weeks ago. When the podcast first started airing,

0:44:47.120 --> 0:44:52.080
<v Speaker 2>I hadn't seen his face in years, many years, but

0:44:52.160 --> 0:44:54.200
<v Speaker 2>I was curious, and so I looked up a recent

0:44:54.280 --> 0:45:03.719
<v Speaker 2>mugshot of him. And he looked weak. He looked thin

0:45:05.080 --> 0:45:09.600
<v Speaker 2>and sickly. He was missing a tooth. He looked small.

0:45:12.640 --> 0:45:15.919
<v Speaker 2>And I looked at him and I said, that's who

0:45:15.960 --> 0:45:20.960
<v Speaker 2>he is. That's who he always was, underneath the guys

0:45:21.520 --> 0:45:26.200
<v Speaker 2>of what he tried to portray to us. He's small

0:45:27.000 --> 0:45:35.680
<v Speaker 2>and weak and ugly. And man, that felt good, Oh

0:45:35.760 --> 0:45:41.920
<v Speaker 2>my god, that felt good. I want people to know

0:45:42.320 --> 0:45:48.040
<v Speaker 2>that healing is available. It is hard and it's messy,

0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:52.840
<v Speaker 2>but it can happen. You don't have to hurt forever.

0:45:54.120 --> 0:45:58.520
<v Speaker 2>It's available to have a happy life.

0:45:58.920 --> 0:46:04.360
<v Speaker 1>So true. Thank you so much for talking with me,

0:46:05.239 --> 0:46:07.640
<v Speaker 1>for all the interviews we did before, for this one today.

0:46:08.400 --> 0:46:10.319
<v Speaker 1>It has meant so much to both Aileen and me,

0:46:11.239 --> 0:46:13.399
<v Speaker 1>and I know it's meant a lot to people who

0:46:13.400 --> 0:46:17.360
<v Speaker 1>have listened. So it's not easy to talk about this stuff,

0:46:17.400 --> 0:46:20.120
<v Speaker 1>and I think we all just really appreciate it.

0:46:20.640 --> 0:46:24.319
<v Speaker 2>Well. I appreciate you giving both Lindsay and me a

0:46:24.360 --> 0:46:26.840
<v Speaker 2>platform to tell our stories in the way that we

0:46:26.960 --> 0:46:36.359
<v Speaker 2>wanted to tell them. So thank you.

0:46:44.800 --> 0:46:48.319
<v Speaker 1>The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts.

0:46:48.840 --> 0:46:51.600
<v Speaker 1>It's written and produced by Alan Lance, Lesser and Me.

0:46:52.600 --> 0:46:56.280
<v Speaker 1>Our story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed

0:46:56.280 --> 0:47:01.000
<v Speaker 1>by James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact

0:47:01.080 --> 0:47:05.759
<v Speaker 1>checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Our executive producers are John

0:47:05.800 --> 0:47:09.640
<v Speaker 1>Parratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvel

0:47:09.719 --> 0:47:13.480
<v Speaker 1>and Nikki Etour at iHeart Podcasts. You can follow us

0:47:13.480 --> 0:47:16.440
<v Speaker 1>on Instagram at Rococo Punch, and you can reach out

0:47:16.520 --> 0:47:20.719
<v Speaker 1>via email The Turning at Rococo Punch dot com I

0:47:20.800 --> 0:47:23.080
<v Speaker 1>America Lance thanks for listening.