1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:01,639 Speaker 1: How are you doing. 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 2: I'm doing really good. It is the hottest day of 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 2: the year today, so oh no, I'm sitting in a 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 2: room where they can't have air conditioning. 5 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: Oh no, we better make this quick then, should we 6 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: just call it? 7 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 2: It's okay? Nope, it's okay. 8 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: From Rocco, Punch and Diheart Podcasts. This is the Turning 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: River Road I America. Lance. I have to ask, as 10 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: you are listening, how does it feel to have your 11 00:00:48,720 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: story out there in this way? It feels liberating. 12 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 2: That's the best way I can describe it is liberating, 13 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 2: especially to have my voice and Lindsay's voice heard simultaneously 14 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: and being able to hear the differences but also the 15 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: similarities in our stories. It feels very validating, honestly, in 16 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 2: what way. I think when you go through something like 17 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 2: she and I went through, there can sometimes be a 18 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: little bit of a sense of imposter syndrome or you've 19 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,279 Speaker 2: been gas lit for so long, like maybe this didn't 20 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: actually happen this way, And so to hear her side, 21 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: which is arguably very different than what I experienced, very validating. 22 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: I can imagine, because I believe you and Lindsay hadn't 23 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: really been in contact. So you're hearing a lot suddenly 24 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,119 Speaker 1: from her about many years that had passed, and she's 25 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,839 Speaker 1: hearing about you, but you had never really spoken about 26 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: it with each other before. 27 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 2: We had not, So, I mean, we knew each other, 28 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: but we didn't run in the same circles at all. Yeah, 29 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: never really talk to her at length ever in my life. 30 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: And like I had said in the podcast, I knew 31 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 2: Jess very very well, but I didn't really know Lindsay. 32 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: At all, just the other youngest maiden, Lindsay's friends and 33 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: your friend. 34 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: Yes, my parents and Jess's parents were very close. In fact, 35 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: her parents lived with my mom all the way up 36 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 2: until twenty twenty three, from twenty twelve the end of 37 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: twenty twelve till the end of twenty twenty three. 38 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: Wow. 39 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: And I don't have contact with her parents anymore, and 40 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:11,399 Speaker 2: that's my choice. But you can understand that our families 41 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 2: they were very intertwined. They kind of had a aunt 42 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 2: and uncle feel to them more than even my own 43 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: aunts and uncles. So I knew her well and her 44 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: brother and sister I knew them well too, but Lindsay 45 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: I didn't. So everything that I had heard from her, 46 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: it was projected in a way that spun a narrative, right. 47 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? 48 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: So when I would listen to interviews like the Hunt 49 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: with John Walsh, there was a twenty twenty in an 50 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: Instant or something like that that was put out about it, 51 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: it was all very heavily on the sexual aspect of it, 52 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 2: when there was so much more beneath the surface that 53 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 2: led to that happening. That this wasn't just like a 54 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: quote unquote sex cult. This was so much more and 55 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: there was so much more abuse that was taking place, 56 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 2: and it was very systemic. 57 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: The abuse took many forms, and people experienced it differently 58 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: or experienced different parts of the abuse. And that's something 59 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: I've been reflecting a lot on lately, is how different 60 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: people can have different experiences of the same person or 61 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: the same group. And I wonder how you've seen that 62 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: come up? Do you think that, Like, what are some 63 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: of the different versions of experiencing River Road that existed 64 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: for members? 65 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: There's a few that I am aware of. For example, 66 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: my mom, when she and I talk about this kind 67 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: of stuff, she I have a hard time to talk 68 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 2: with her about it at length anymore because she always 69 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: kind of brings it back to herself, and she said, 70 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 2: I just wanted to learn God's word, which is a 71 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: beautiful thing, right, And I think she has a lot 72 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 2: of guilt for what happened to me, And whenever I 73 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 2: start talking about that, she kind of gets really uncomfortable 74 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 2: because she just feels the consistent need to apologize. And 75 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 2: what she sees is we came together to do a 76 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 2: ministry and she was like, I didn't see the other 77 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 2: things that were going on beneath the surface. The reality 78 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: is I think she did. I think everybody did, but 79 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: nobody wanted to pay attention. When I say everybody, I 80 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: mean those who are old enough to cern. Obviously I 81 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 2: was a child. I was just there for the ride. 82 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 2: But I know that there are people who have said, 83 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: you know, in hindsight, this is a very unsurprising thing 84 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: that happened. So you know, there's that she just wants 85 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 2: to remember the good things. I don't falter for it. 86 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 2: But then again, she also has a whole life previous 87 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: to that to fall back on, Right, she has a 88 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 2: frame of reference for what life is outside of the cult, 89 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 2: whereas I really didn't. So there's that I talked to 90 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 2: a woman after she listened to several episodes of the podcast. 91 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: She was very close to my parents and to the Bernards. 92 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: She actually Bernard's being Victor Bernard and his wife, Victor 93 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: being the leader of her best oon. 94 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: Yes, and she had left in nineteen ninety three, so 95 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 2: I was still a very young child. I was only 96 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 2: about a year and a half when she left. But 97 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 2: she was very dear to my parents, and even though 98 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 2: they never saw her again, they talked about her quite 99 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 2: a bit. So she reached out to me on social 100 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: media and she talked about how she was listening to 101 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: the podcast, and obviously a lot of the things that 102 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: she heard happened after she left, and she was asking 103 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: herself like, how did it get there? How did that happen? 104 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 2: How could that have happened? And she said, but to 105 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 2: be completely honest, I can see how it could have 106 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: gotten there. So you know, there's that. And then even 107 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: Lindsay and I have had disagreements, nothing like major, but 108 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: there were things that I have said in the podcast 109 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: that she didn't agree with and brought them to my attention. So, 110 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: for example, I had said that they were moving these 111 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 2: young people around to spy on us. And while I 112 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: do believe that that, in a sense is true. She 113 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: didn't see it that way, and I'll explain where she 114 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 2: came from and where I came from and sort of 115 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: the middle ground. That was probably the reality. 116 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: And you're talking about how your one time a maiden 117 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: was very quickly moved into your home and then very 118 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: quickly moved out again, which happened sometimes people moving around 119 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: all the time. You never know where you're going to live. 120 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: Even if you own a house, it's not really yours. 121 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: And you felt like that maiden maybe had been sent 122 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: there to kind of spy on your family. 123 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: And it wasn't just the maidens. There are quite a 124 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: few young people that were moved around very randomly, very quickly, 125 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 2: and it happened to us more than once. 126 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: Now. 127 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: Lindsey, when she heard that, she sent me a text 128 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: and said that she didn't believe that that was the case. 129 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 2: When the maidens were moved out from their home, it 130 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: was usually because Victor believed that they weren't doing well spiritually. 131 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: And kind as a punishment. 132 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 2: Kind of as a punishment. Yeah, that having been said, 133 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 2: I bounced this off of a couple of people who 134 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 2: I grew up with and grew up around, and what 135 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: I came to was maybe the intention that was told 136 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 2: to them wasn't, you know, go in there and report 137 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 2: back whatever you see. But these young people were so 138 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: conditioned to basically tell the leadership or even tell Victor 139 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: anything that they aw that could possibly be you know, 140 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 2: darkness or sin. 141 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: Everything has to be in the light. In other words, 142 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: Victory has to know everything. So you feel like you're 143 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 1: always being watched. 144 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, so even if Victor didn't say so, and so 145 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 2: you're going to move in with the Lesterre family, which 146 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: was my family, to report back to me what you 147 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 2: see would happen was and this I know this, I 148 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: know for a fact, and it wasn't any of the maidens. 149 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: It was a couple other young women who lived with 150 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: us who were around the same age as the maidens, 151 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 2: but they weren't the maidens. They lived with us, and 152 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 2: they would see things that happened in my home and 153 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 2: then they would report those to the leadership or to Victor, 154 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 2: and then my parents or even I would you know, 155 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: get in trouble for whatever it was. So I felt 156 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: the need to clarify that that there wasn't this network 157 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 2: of like spies, but it was a conditioning. It was 158 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 2: a manipulation to be foot soldiers to report back in 159 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 2: what they saw, and they absolutely did do that. 160 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: And it was a culture where it was really hard 161 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: to have privacy exactly and live the life that you wanted. 162 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: I mean, you had to live by certain rules and 163 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 1: if you didn't, you would hear about it. 164 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 2: What I was going to say was, did lindsay ever 165 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: do that? I have no idea because she never lived 166 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: with us, and that's not something that I feel is 167 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 2: worth nitpicking about. What I do know is that it happened. 168 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 2: So you know, there are definitely differing stories, differing opinions. 169 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 2: There's still people who believe that they were there to 170 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 2: live the word of God. 171 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: Like my mom. 172 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: She doesn't deny what happened happened, but she has a 173 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 2: really hard time wrapping her head around that it could 174 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 2: have been all bad, you know, and I don't think 175 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 2: it was all bad, but she really doesn't want to 176 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: address the things that were. 177 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: She wants to hold on to the good things and 178 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: say some bad things happened exactly in inner conversations with 179 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: it exactly, And I think a lot of people can 180 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: relate to that when they're talking to parents, you know, 181 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: more extreme example, you're in a cult. Other examples, you 182 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: have issues from the family dynamic or things that happened 183 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: when you're a kid, and different people kind of focus 184 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: on different parts of the memory. That can make it 185 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: hard sometimes to talk about the past without feeling invalidated 186 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: or without feeling like you're kind of talking past each other. 187 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: Then my sister, she doesn't even want to listen to 188 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 2: this podcast, which is fine with me. She's in a 189 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 2: place that I know that a lot of people I 190 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 2: grew up with are where she just wants to leave 191 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 2: the past and the past and move forward. A couple 192 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: days after the first episode aired, I brought up the 193 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 2: podcast and was talking about some of the things in there, 194 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: and she said, you know, I know a lot of 195 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 2: bad things happened to you, and I'm really sorry about that, 196 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 2: but it's I feel like I'm in a really good 197 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 2: place in my life right now, and I think I 198 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 2: just need to leave the past and the past, and 199 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 2: I hope you can respect that, and of course I can't. 200 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 2: Of course I can't. But something that Lindsay and I 201 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: have talked about is how hard it is to have 202 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 2: all of these people that you grew up with and 203 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 2: who experienced the same life you experienced through the most part, 204 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 2: and nobody wants to talk about it. 205 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so. 206 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 2: I'm thankful because Lindsay and I are now talking, and 207 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: I'm very grateful to have somebody that I can talk 208 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 2: to about things that come up for me, because sometimes 209 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 2: I will have the most random memory and to have 210 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 2: somebody like that I can just text and be like, 211 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 2: you know, I just thought of this, and isn't this crazy? 212 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really It's someone who actually gets there. 213 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a huge blessing, definitely very healing to have 214 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 2: somebody like that. 215 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: What are some of those memories that have been popping 216 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: up lately. 217 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: One of the things that popped up for me a 218 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: few weeks ago was going to heaven. We used to 219 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: say that we will be with Jesus Christ for all eternity. 220 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: That's a wonderful thing. But then somebody was like, well, 221 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: why would we want to be with somebody that we 222 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 2: don't even know? And then somebody was like, basically spun 223 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: together that because Victor was Jesus Christ in the flesh, 224 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: that who we were going to be with wasn't going 225 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: to be some stranger we had never seen before, but 226 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: that it was going to be Victor, that Victor was 227 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: going to take that personification of Jesus Christ. 228 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: That's such a stark statement that Victor is Jesus. Even 229 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: when you go to heaven, the Jesus you meet will 230 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: be Victor. 231 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's not biblical at all. And to be 232 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: quite frank, I feel as though I know Jesus and 233 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: when I see his face, I will know him and 234 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: it won't be Victor's face, and it won't be Victor's face, 235 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: thank God. But yeah, that was a really fun one 236 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: to like kind of remember remember and actually be able 237 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: to chuckle about and be like, we were really that 238 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 2: far gone. 239 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: Hindsight. 240 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 241 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: In the series, we tell your story and we talk 242 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: a lot about your early childhood. You were in the 243 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: group since you were born, essentially your parents knew Victor 244 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: for a long time, and we talk about kind of 245 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: your middle school years that were so terrible for you 246 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: because jan was insisting on these awful diets. And then 247 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: we kind of fast forward to your early twenties when 248 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: you're living in Washington State with other members of River 249 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: Road Fellowship and the news is coming out about Lindsay 250 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: and Jess going to the police about the sexual abuse. 251 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: I'm really curious if you could tell us about the 252 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: years in between, because there's probably about a decade in there. 253 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: What was going on or what are some of the 254 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: memories that are most vivid for you during that time 255 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: of your life. 256 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: During that time in my life, between the ages of 257 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: twelve and seventeen, we had moved back home to the 258 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 2: house that we owned on a satellite property. Originally it 259 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 2: was known as Eagle's Nest, and then Victor changed the 260 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 2: name to Melita, which is the biblical name for the 261 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: island of Malta. Oh, so I lived there from the 262 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 2: ages of twelve to seventeen without moving. Once my life 263 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 2: definitely calmed down a lot. Melita was kind of the 264 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 2: location where conforming nonconformists lived, if that makes any sense, 265 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: people who were a part of the church, but maybe 266 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 2: they didn't fit the idea or the mold of like 267 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 2: the model cult member. So we were a bit more 268 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 2: laid back. Melita was actually a really great nickname for 269 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: our property because it was kind of like an island, 270 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 2: the island of misfit toys, if you will. So we 271 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 2: lived there. It was during that time that I had 272 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 2: been sort of inadvertently looped in with a group of 273 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 2: young people that I don't think we really talked in 274 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 2: this series about, specifically known as the Shepherd's Core. 275 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: Yes, and the Shepherd We did not get into that. 276 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is a whole probably a whole other podcast series, 277 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 2: if we're being honest. 278 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: Because there were a number of groups, especially for young people, 279 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: like the Maidens, and Shepherd's Core was another way that 280 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: you're kind of showing your commitment, You're getting more deeply 281 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: involved with the church, so you kind of, it sounds like, 282 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: became part of the Shepherd's Core. 283 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 2: I did. Yes, the Shepherd's Core was originally I think 284 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 2: like six or seven younger people, and then in two 285 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: thousand and three, Victor opened it up to anyone over 286 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: the age of twelve. I was eventually kind of brought 287 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: in in two thousand and five. 288 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: And my impression is that the Shepherd's Core was kind 289 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: of like a very intense church youth group. Would you 290 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: say that's one way to look at it. 291 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, It's a really funny thing to talk about because 292 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 2: at the inception of the Shepherd's Core, Victor's idea of 293 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 2: what it was going to be was going to be 294 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 2: very similar to the Waycore of the Way International. 295 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: Which is the group Victor was a part of before 296 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: creating River Road Fellowship. And this was kind of a 297 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: branch off of the Way, very influenced by the Way. 298 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: A lot of former members of the Way joined River Road. 299 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:34,239 Speaker 2: Yes, so that was his kind of blueprint. What it 300 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: became was not that at all. There were Shepherd's Core 301 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 2: principles that we had to follow, there were verses that 302 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 2: we had to memorize. It became a name, just a 303 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 2: name only really you didn't really know. I never really 304 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 2: knew what it meant to be Shepherd's Core. He would 305 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 2: take us on like camping trips sometimes, or there would 306 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 2: be classes, and I know that I talked about the classes. 307 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 2: The original Shepherd's Core had been given, like these sweatshirts 308 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 2: that had the Shepherd's Core written on them. But it 309 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 2: was kind of like when Lindsay had to give back 310 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 2: all of the things that she was given when she 311 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 2: left the Maidens. If Victor didn't think that these young 312 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 2: people were like spiritually well, or if he got mad 313 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: at them, he made them turn in their sweats. I 314 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 2: never had to do that because by the time I 315 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 2: came around, nothing was being given to the Shepherd's Core. 316 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 2: It was just sort of a name that Victor would 317 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 2: throw around to make the young people feel good. 318 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: It's interesting how he creates these status symbols that he 319 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: gets to choose who has them, and so he can 320 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: give you that status or take it away at any 321 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: time for any reason, and you might not know why. Yeah, 322 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: and that just turned into such a mind game and 323 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: so manipulative. 324 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. So within the Shepherd's Core there was the Maidens, 325 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 2: which were kind of part of the Shepherd's corep but 326 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 2: kind of not. And then there was another group known 327 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 2: as Ariga's Band, which was seven young women who were 328 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 2: around the same age as the Maidens. Some of them 329 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: were younger sisters of the Maidens, and some of them 330 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 2: were maybe young women who had joined the church after 331 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 2: the Maidens were formed. And then there was a men's 332 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 2: group that was eight young men and they were known 333 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 2: as the Gilliad Gamblers. And from my understanding, these groups 334 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 2: they'd lived together, they did all their stuff together. Ariga's Band, 335 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 2: they had a commitment similar to the Maidens, to remain unmarried. 336 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 2: The Gilliad Gamblers, from my understanding, It's funny because my 337 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 2: brother in law's a former Gilliad gambler. They had a commitment. 338 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 2: I believe it was for seven years to remain unmarried 339 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,719 Speaker 2: and then they could get married if they wanted to. 340 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 1: So interesting, how the girls and the boys are treated differently. 341 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: Where the girls groups you're never getting married, right? Could 342 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: you talk about a little bit about how men and 343 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: women or girls and boys were treated differently in the church. 344 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 2: Women were absolutely expected to be quieter, more submissive. The 345 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 2: way we dressed was more regulated, the way we talked 346 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: was more regulated, where we went was regulated. 347 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: Was the rule of walking into's only applied to women 348 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: and girls? 349 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 2: Yes? 350 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't know that. 351 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,959 Speaker 2: Yes, men could go wherever they wanted, whenever they wanted. 352 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was a very that's so oppressive, Yeah, 353 00:22:43,080 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: very oppressives. One thing I've been wondering about is I 354 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: remember when you were living in Washington and you finally 355 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: had that brave moment where you said I'm leaving. I know, 356 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: right beforehand you were dating someone at the time who 357 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: you had met through a coworker, and you finally told 358 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: him at one point I'm in a cult and I 359 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: need to get out and I don't know how. And 360 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: it's really interesting to me that use the word cult. 361 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: And I'm curious, when did that transition happen where you 362 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: actually in your brain. I'm guessing that's the first time 363 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: you said it out loud. And I'm wondering when in 364 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: your brain you started thinking this is a cult that 365 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: I'm in. 366 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 2: That's a really great question, because it actually is a 367 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 2: lot earlier than one might think. People always called us 368 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 2: a cult, you know, and Victor would talk about people 369 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: who called us a cult and how you know they 370 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 2: were wrong and really yeah. And I remember the mother 371 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 2: of one of the grown women in our church coming 372 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: to visit at one point and she was telling her daughter. 373 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 2: She's like, you were in a cult. And the daughter 374 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 2: was like, no, one'm not. And she said, you guys 375 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 2: live together, you eat together, you work together, you buy 376 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 2: food together. She's like, for all intents and purposes, this 377 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 2: is a cult. And the daughter, the woman in the church, 378 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 2: she said, oh, I guess I guess it is. Well, 379 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: that's great, and she just kind of like moved on. 380 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: So I kind of always just had it in the 381 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: back of my head that like, yes, we were a cult, 382 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 2: but we were like the good kind of cult and 383 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 2: that it was fine. It wasn't like Jonestown where we 384 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 2: were all gonna drink something and die like we would 385 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 2: never do that. So that was sort of when the 386 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 2: seed was planted. But when it was like solidified was 387 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 2: when I originally watched the story with Jess and Lindsay 388 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: and they talked about it as being a cult. That 389 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 2: was when it solidified for me that yes, it was 390 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 2: indeed a cult, and yes it was not the quote 391 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 2: unquote good kind of cult. That it was very very dark. 392 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: What do you think made it a cult? You know, 393 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: beyond the obvious terrible abuses that were happening. If someone 394 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: is joining a new group, joining a new religion, a 395 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: new community, what should people watch out for or what 396 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: did you see? 397 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 2: I mean, the list goes on, but a big one 398 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 2: is isolation. If they are telling you that you can't 399 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 2: talk to your family or your friends, that you have 400 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 2: to cut those ties, that is cult red flag one 401 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: oh one. In my opinion, I think that there is 402 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: definitely the opportunity and the availability for people to come 403 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 2: together and work together and live in a communal environment, 404 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: and I think that there is the availability for it 405 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 2: to be good but when there is somebody, when there 406 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 2: is a figurehead in the middle, that is everything's trickling 407 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 2: down from you cease to have free will because everything 408 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 2: revolves around this one person. And if you look at 409 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 2: cults throughout time, that's really the determining factors that there 410 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 2: is this one figurehead that is not God, not Jesus. 411 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 2: It's a person who has put themselves in a position 412 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 2: of authority and has started making these rules and began 413 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 2: to isolate you into this community. I think that that 414 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 2: is the main thing that people need to look out for. 415 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 2: But also it's not lost on me that a lot 416 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 2: of people realize that too late, they're too far emeshed. 417 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: It can feel like a fine line at first, especially 418 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: because we all want someone who has all the answers 419 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: or who can guide us. We all want to mentor 420 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 1: we all want someone to help us figure out what 421 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: to do in life. And once you find someone you trust, 422 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: it very quickly can veer into an unhealthy balance of 423 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: how much they're influencing you. And yeah, that can be 424 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: hard to identify sometimes, and it does seem to me 425 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: that it can come in different forms. I mean, sometimes 426 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: it's religion, sometimes it's not religion based, but it is 427 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: a controlling situation. Yeah, I'm curious, as you listened back 428 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: to the series, you're hearing yourself, you're hearing Lin's story, 429 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: did anything surprise you or did anything kind of make 430 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: you see things differently? 431 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 2: You know, I can't say that there was necessarily like 432 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 2: an aha moment for me. There were definitely things that 433 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 2: Lindsay said in general that I was like, Oh, thank 434 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:31,719 Speaker 2: god she remembers it that way too, because sometimes you 435 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 2: wonder if you're remembering it correctly, like I said at 436 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 2: the beginning, and you want to make sure that you 437 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 2: are speaking the truth because if you're not, then the 438 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 2: credibility of all of our stories goes out the window 439 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 2: in my opinion. So I guess that that was a 440 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 2: really really big deal for me, is like hearing actually 441 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 2: hearing her speak and tell her story her way. Like 442 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 2: I said earlier on the podcast, how her story was 443 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 2: so spun to fit a narrative of that this was 444 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 2: a sex cult and that gave their young daughters over 445 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 2: to this man. 446 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: You're talking about in some of the media contry, because 447 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,239 Speaker 1: the media convergation outside of interviews, we've talked about this, 448 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: How yes, you felt like a lot of the media 449 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: coverage it didn't feel right to you, right, or how 450 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: would you? 451 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,239 Speaker 2: It didn't go It felt very inaccurate. And then there 452 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 2: were like a lot of third party tellings of whatever 453 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 2: these podcasters heard on the media, and I was like, 454 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 2: none of this is accurate, Like this is such a 455 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 2: skewed telling of my life, and it made me so mad. 456 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 2: And I actually reached out to a podcaster that was 457 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 2: like a third party narrator of the story who just 458 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 2: basically gathered all the information that they had from the 459 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 2: media and talked about River read Fellowship on their podcast, 460 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: and Oh, I was furious, and I was like, they 461 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 2: don't have the story there this none of what they're 462 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 2: saying is even like factually accurate. And I actually reached 463 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 2: out to them on Instead Graham and was like, Hey, 464 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 2: I grew up in this cult. If you want to 465 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 2: know what really happened, go ahead and reach out. They 466 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 2: never did, which is fine, but that was really what 467 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 2: made me want to start talking about my story and 468 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: really like talk about the nuance of what was going 469 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 2: on behind the scenes of this big blow up that happened, 470 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 2: because there's just it was, it went so much deeper, 471 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 2: and there was so much more going on that led 472 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 2: to this terrible thing that happened with these young girls. 473 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: So hearing Lindsay now tell her story, that felt yeah, 474 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: what did that? 475 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: It felt full It kind of felt full circle in 476 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: a way, I guess, and realizing that that wasn't her, like, 477 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 2: oh my god. They took soundbites, spits and pieces to 478 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: make it sound a certain way and get the story across. 479 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're saying that the other coverage when sometimes it 480 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: felt inaccurate. It wasn't Lindsay's doing it. I don't know. 481 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: It wasn't your doing. 482 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 2: It wasn't Lindsay's doing. It was people piecemealing things together 483 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 2: to make a story, and which is fine. The end 484 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 2: result was Victor Bernard was put in jail. That was 485 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 2: what needed to happen. But also Lindsay deserved to be heard. 486 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: She deserved to share her truth, and so listening to 487 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: her share her story on this podcast, I was just 488 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 2: so happy for her. I'm so happy that she's gotten 489 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: so much healing and that she is living a wonderful, 490 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 2: good life with her child, and that she seems happy 491 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 2: and that she still is willing to speak about this 492 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 2: and that her intention is very similar to mine, and 493 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: that this story, our experiences can help people, can help 494 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 2: other survivors, can help people trying to figure their way 495 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 2: out of these situations. Our stories can help with that. 496 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: I know that once you left River Road Fellowship, it 497 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: was a really dark time for you. You talked about 498 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: what do I do with my life now? I'm leaving 499 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: behind everything and everyone I know. And I wonder if 500 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: you could talk about some of the turning points or 501 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: the stages you went through to get to your life now. 502 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 2: How much time do we have? So I left in 503 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: March of twenty fifteen, right after Victor Bernard was arrested 504 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 2: in Brazil. He hadn't even been extradited to the United 505 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 2: States yet, he was still in prison in Brazil, and 506 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 2: there was a lot surrounding that. A big turning point 507 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: for me, Like maybe the first turning point was when 508 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 2: I got in touch with one of the former clergy 509 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 2: in River Road. He had actually left the previous year 510 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 2: after he was kind of pushed out because he had 511 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 2: called out some of the stuff that was going on 512 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 2: in Spokane very bluntly, very frankly, and there was a 513 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 2: lot of dishonesty going on about why he left. So 514 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 2: when I left, I got in touch with his son 515 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: and I said, get me in touch with your dad, 516 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 2: because this is a man that I trusted. I knew 517 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 2: that something had to have happened that caused him to 518 00:33:58,640 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 2: walk out. 519 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: This is you want to know. You want to know 520 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: what happened. 521 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: This is a man that Victor called his true son 522 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 2: in the faith. Like, if he left, something had to 523 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 2: have happened. That was a really big deal. Okay. So 524 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 2: his son got me in touch with him and I 525 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: ended up going over to their house for dinner, and 526 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 2: after dinner, he and I sat out on the porch 527 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 2: and he's like, so, you said, you wanted to talk 528 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 2: to me, what can I help you with? And I said, 529 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 2: I want to know what happened. I want to know 530 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 2: why we're sitting here today and not back there still. 531 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 2: And he basically told me that the church had gotten 532 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 2: so far from the standard of the Word of God 533 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 2: that he just couldn't watch it anymore. And he had 534 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 2: shown the leaders in Spokane in the Bible where things 535 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: were going wrong, and they sent him away. So that 536 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 2: was a big turning point for me to have some 537 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 2: like validation that what I experienced was being seen by 538 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 2: other people. Other people were being abused by this abuse 539 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 2: of power. 540 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: It seems that when you first left was really the hardest, 541 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 1: hardest period. 542 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 2: I didn't know how to be a person. It was 543 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 2: literally like that I did not know how to function 544 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,320 Speaker 2: in a world where my life wasn't regulated. I didn't 545 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 2: know what to eat, I knew nothing. I didn't know 546 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 2: how to manage my emotions because everything had just been 547 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 2: pushed down, so I didn't know how to manage and 548 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 2: regulate my emotions at all. It was just like I 549 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 2: was a teenager, I was a child. 550 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: How did that come up in your life? 551 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 2: Relationships? Relationships? You know. I had been casually seeing this 552 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 2: guy and that ended very poorly. I had been raised 553 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 2: to just let people walk all over me, and he 554 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: sometimes would be like, you're acting like you're twelve, Like 555 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 2: grow up. I'm like, I that's because I was emotionally 556 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 2: stunted at twelve, Like I don't know how to be 557 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,760 Speaker 2: a person. And that was actually like, actually a real 558 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 2: concept to me. That was like, I think that all 559 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 2: of these things are coming to the surface because they 560 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 2: couldn't for so long. 561 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: These things being like kind of emotional. 562 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 2: Emotions experiences like suddenly I'm going through some sort of 563 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:29,720 Speaker 2: like psychological puberty of sorts, Like it's all just coming 564 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,280 Speaker 2: to this, you know, rushing in and my whole world 565 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 2: is new, and it's overwhelmingly new, and it's not that great. 566 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,399 Speaker 2: And I didn't know what to do with myself, and 567 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 2: so I drank a lot to non whatever I was feeling, 568 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 2: put myself in a lot of dangerous situations with men, 569 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 2: which I know that Lindsay talked about as well. And 570 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 2: it is a miracle that I am alive. Let's just 571 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,240 Speaker 2: put it that way. Yeah. I poisoned myself with alcohol 572 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 2: on more than one occasion, ended up in the psych word. 573 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 2: It was just really, really, really bad. Moved home to 574 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 2: help take care of my dad, got away from the 575 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 2: pain of like the environment of Spokane, but the pain 576 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 2: was still very much within me. I didn't know how 577 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 2: to deal. I got involved with another really unhealthy young 578 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 2: man that ended very badly. After he broke up with 579 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 2: me in September of twenty sixteen, I reached a point 580 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 2: of I was so broken. I just didn't want to exist. 581 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 2: I did not want to exist. I didn't want to die. 582 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 2: But I also didn't want to live. And I was 583 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 2: in the shower and I asked God. I said, God, 584 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 2: I don't know if this is even possible, but I 585 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:51,800 Speaker 2: need you to heal me. And immediately the thought popped 586 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 2: into my head that I needed to get sober, I 587 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,919 Speaker 2: needed to quit drinking, and so I did. That day, 588 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 2: I reached out to a person I barely knew to 589 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,280 Speaker 2: take me to a recovery meeting and I started building 590 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 2: a bit of a community there and that was a 591 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 2: big growth, time of growth for me. I started going 592 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 2: to therapy during that time, I started learning how to heal. 593 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 2: So I got into another relationship and then broke up 594 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,839 Speaker 2: with him middle of COVID while my dad was dying. 595 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 2: After that, met my husband. One thing I wanted in 596 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:34,720 Speaker 2: a partner was somebody who wanted to better themselves, wanted 597 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 2: to grow, somebody that I could grow with and build 598 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 2: off of and they could build off me. And I 599 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 2: found that in my husband. I lost my dad in 600 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,439 Speaker 2: October of twenty twenty, twenty twenty one had my son. 601 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,800 Speaker 2: These are all like turning points things, you know, growth, 602 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 2: times of growth. My husband is a recovering addict, and 603 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 2: thirteen days after my son was born, he overdosed. 604 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 1: And I'm so sorry, Krista. 605 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 2: And he was revived, and there is no reason logically, 606 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 2: scientifically that he should be alive today because he was 607 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 2: on some very quiet side street, in a very quiet neighborhood, 608 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 2: in his truck when it happened. So it wasn't like 609 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 2: he was out in public. He was just alone and 610 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 2: somebody found him and revived him. And my therapist had 611 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,439 Speaker 2: said to me, because I couldn't make sense of it, 612 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,800 Speaker 2: I was like, I don't understand why this, how this happened. 613 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 2: Like I'm happy he's alive, but I don't understand why 614 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 2: or how. And she said, Krista, sometimes miracles just happen 615 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 2: and you just have to be okay with that. It 616 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,280 Speaker 2: was really just like blood. And it was in those 617 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 2: moments following that I started to actually believe in God again. 618 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 2: I started realizing that my God was a God. 619 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:08,800 Speaker 1: Of love. 620 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 2: And a god of healing and forgiveness and patience and goodness, 621 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 2: and that God never wanted to hurt me, that he 622 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 2: only wanted to see me thrive, and that the people 623 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 2: who said that they were acting in God's name were 624 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 2: false prophets essentially, and that they were liars earlier this year, 625 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 2: I finally had the courage to walk into a church again, 626 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,879 Speaker 2: which is something I never swore i'd do. And God 627 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,240 Speaker 2: met me there, and I don't know what you believe, Erica, 628 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,240 Speaker 2: but that's what I believe in my heart. 629 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: It's so powerful to hear how you've built a life 630 00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,479 Speaker 1: that focuses on being loving and focuses on the love 631 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: part and not the punishment and the blame and all 632 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: of the self criticism you had to live in for 633 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: so long and to find something that can lead to 634 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: just this happy life that you have. I'm sure they're 635 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 1: not happy parts too. 636 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 2: There are definitely not happy parts. There's definitely still stuff 637 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 2: I struggle with. I'm still very traumatized when it comes 638 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 2: to eating and diet, which is something that I am 639 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 2: in therapy for now. That is a big I actually 640 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 2: should bring that up that that was a big aha 641 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 2: moment I did have when I was listening to myself 642 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 2: and I realized that my eating patterns were disordered, and 643 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 2: they've been disordered since I was a teenager. So that 644 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 2: coming to light was a big deal for me. And 645 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 2: I was able to get back into therapy with my 646 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,240 Speaker 2: old therapist, so I get to address that Nowjince, she's wonderful. 647 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,959 Speaker 1: You realize that you are still carrying some of those 648 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 1: ordered behavior as a way of thinking. 649 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, and I will probably always, you know, to 650 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 2: some extent, carry some part of it with me. It 651 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 2: was my entire childhood, so it's not like I can 652 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 2: erase it. But I think even if I still have 653 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 2: things that I need to heal from, which I know 654 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 2: I do, I can address it in a healthy way 655 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 2: where it doesn't take me out emotionally physically, because I 656 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,240 Speaker 2: have such a beautiful life. 657 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,839 Speaker 1: Now, what is your life like now? 658 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 2: It's very simple, which is what I wanted. I wanted 659 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 2: a simple life. I live in a three bedroom apartment 660 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 2: in a college neighborhood. I have two dogs that are 661 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 2: very crazy. I have a wonderful husband that I've been 662 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 2: married to for almost three years. Our third anniversary is 663 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 2: coming up. I have a son and a daughter who 664 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 2: are the loves of my life. And I know that 665 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,279 Speaker 2: I've talked about my son in this podcast, but since then, 666 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 2: I've had a daughter. And she is wild, and I 667 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 2: say that in the best sense of the word. She 668 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 2: is wild, and she is joyful, and she is fierce, 669 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 2: and she is fearless, and I kind of said tongue 670 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,239 Speaker 2: in cheek a couple of weeks ago to somebody, I said, 671 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 2: I think Maddie is everything that I would have been 672 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 2: had I not had my entire personality beat out of 673 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 2: me at a young age. And I'm just so happy 674 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,799 Speaker 2: for her that nobody's ever gonna take that from her, 675 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 2: That she gets to grow up and shine and be 676 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,239 Speaker 2: bright and be loud and people are gonna love her 677 00:43:54,280 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 2: for it, and that is so amazing to me. I 678 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 2: don't need that. I have built my life around whatever 679 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 2: happened to me and have integrated that into who I 680 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 2: am now, and it's, you know, maybe not who I 681 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 2: would have been had I not had those experiences, but 682 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 2: I love myself. I love who I've become. But to 683 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 2: see people just light up when they see my daughter's 684 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 2: face because she has so much joy and she's so fearless, 685 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 2: it's healing. It's so healing to watch. 686 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: Is there anything that comes to mind that you want 687 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 1: to share or you want people to hear before we close? 688 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 2: I looked up a recent mug shot of Victor Bernard 689 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 2: a few weeks ago. When the podcast first started airing, 690 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 2: I hadn't seen his face in years, many years, but 691 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 2: I was curious, and so I looked up a recent 692 00:44:54,280 --> 00:45:03,719 Speaker 2: mugshot of him. And he looked weak. He looked thin 693 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 2: and sickly. He was missing a tooth. He looked small. 694 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,919 Speaker 2: And I looked at him and I said, that's who 695 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 2: he is. That's who he always was, underneath the guys 696 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 2: of what he tried to portray to us. He's small 697 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:35,680 Speaker 2: and weak and ugly. And man, that felt good, Oh 698 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 2: my god, that felt good. I want people to know 699 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 2: that healing is available. It is hard and it's messy, 700 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,840 Speaker 2: but it can happen. You don't have to hurt forever. 701 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:58,520 Speaker 2: It's available to have a happy life. 702 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 1: So true. Thank you so much for talking with me, 703 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: for all the interviews we did before, for this one today. 704 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,319 Speaker 1: It has meant so much to both Aileen and me, 705 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,399 Speaker 1: and I know it's meant a lot to people who 706 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,360 Speaker 1: have listened. So it's not easy to talk about this stuff, 707 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 1: and I think we all just really appreciate it. 708 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,319 Speaker 2: Well. I appreciate you giving both Lindsay and me a 709 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,840 Speaker 2: platform to tell our stories in the way that we 710 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:36,359 Speaker 2: wanted to tell them. So thank you. 711 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,319 Speaker 1: The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts. 712 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: It's written and produced by Alan Lance, Lesser and Me. 713 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,280 Speaker 1: Our story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed 714 00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: by James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact 715 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 1: checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Our executive producers are John 716 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: Parratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvel 717 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,480 Speaker 1: and Nikki Etour at iHeart Podcasts. You can follow us 718 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Rococo Punch, and you can reach out 719 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 1: via email The Turning at Rococo Punch dot com I 720 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,080 Speaker 1: America Lance thanks for listening.