WEBVTT - Davos Is Learning the ‘Art of the Deal’ With Trump 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:09.480 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. The Golden Age of 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:15.640 America begins right now. I will very simply put America first. 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:29.680 Welcome to trump Andomics, the Bloomberg podcast that looks at 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:34.000 the economic world of Donald Trump, how he's already shaped 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:37.240 the global economy and what on earth is going to 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:40.640 happen next. I'm Stephanie Flanners, head of Government and Economics 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:44.680 at Bloomberg, and this week we're recording Trump Andomics in 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.800 the Swiss Alps, in the Bloomberg DeVos House at the 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.160 World Economic Forum, And as we speak, we're looking at 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:56.080 pictures from Washington. We're recording on Monday, and the second 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.880 inauguration of Donald Trump is getting underway. So we did 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.760 I think it was fitting given the timing that in 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:06.920 this episode we asked the question, is Davos learning the 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.520 art of the deal? You know, not so long ago, 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:14.440 the billionaires, the heads of state, the tech moguls who 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:16.800 come here every January for the World Economic Forum, they 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.000 thought they were done with Donald Trump, and now they 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.319 seem to be pretty meekly falling into line. 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.000 I'm super fired up for the future. It's going to 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:27.840 be very exciting. 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:30.600 As the President said, We're going to have a golden age. 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.920 I'm actually very optimistic this time. He seems to have 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:35.440 a lot of energy around. 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:38.720 Reducing regulation, and if I can help him do that, 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.039 I'm going to help him. I mean, seeing Donald Trump 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.480 get get up after getting shot. 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:46.280 In the face and pump his fist in. 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:49.080 The air with the American flag, it's like hard to 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:51.640 not get kind of emotional about that spirit. 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.440 And I'm wondering what the implications are for everyone else 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:59.720 and for markets, for money, for investors, for the broader world. 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:04.160 And I've got a stellar cast here to discuss these issues, 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.160 Bloomberg's editor in chief, John Micklethwaite, and I'm very glad 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:10.440 that you made it this year. You were human ill 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:12.720 last year and lots of us had to pretend to 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:14.920 be you, which didn't go well at all. We have 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:19.280 Jenny Leonard white House reporter who focuses on international economic 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:22.480 issues and has been the first to an awful lot 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.120 of trade stories and policies ever since she came to Bloomberg. 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:30.600 And Bradstone, who's now editor of Bloomberg business Week, but 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.400 before that was Senior Executive editor for Global Technology at 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:37.800 Bloomberg News and the author of four books very relevant 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:41.800 to our discussions today, including Amazon Unbound, Jeff Bezos and 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.320 The Invention of a Global Empire Looking Around, and it 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:50.040 was written up rather nicely in an introductory story that 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:52.480 Bloomberg News wrote, You'd have to say the movers and 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:56.160 shakers descending on the World Economic Forum here in Devils 0:02:56.200 --> 0:03:00.040 this week have already been paying their dues to the 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:05.560 new president, realigning their priorities to better fit his somewhat 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:09.720 unreconstructed America First Agenda. We had a great quote from 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:13.440 Lloyd Blankvine, the former head of Goldman Sachs. He said 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:17.720 he was reminded of what happened when Napoleon escaped from Elba, 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.640 and the French newspapers changed their tune pretty dramatically in 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.720 eighteen fifteen. They started off, in fact, the Monitor started 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.480 off characterizing Napoleon as a monster, but by the time 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.000 he got close to Paris, they announced that his Majesty 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.080 was arriving. And it definitely has sort of felt a 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:37.400 bit like that, And of course Donald Trump himself would 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.800 love the comparison with Napoleon. So let me start with you, Brad, 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.960 because there has been so much focus on how Silicon 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.000 Valley has sort of turned on a dime with this 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.200 president and some of the key figures like Mark Zuckerberg 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:53.800 in particular. But maybe what's changed it is just they've 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:55.200 been able to show their true colors. 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:56.280 Everything has changed. 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.800 Let's go about eight years ago and all the CEOs 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:01.880 in to the White House looking like they had some 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.200 bad fish the night before, and there was Tim Cook 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.040 and Jeff Bezos and Cheryl Sandberg. 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:08.440 Zuckerberg didn't even go. 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.120 Elon didn't go, and then withdrew from the Presidential Council 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.000 a couple of weeks later when Trump withdrew from the 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:19.440 Paris Climate Accords, and so what happened? I mean, they 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:23.760 felt unjustly persecuted during the Biden years, either through the 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:27.159 anti trust agenda or the regulation of crypto, maybe a 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.799 little bit of the anti tech mood in the media. 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.680 And they have come out of the last four years 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:38.000 in some ways you know, maga and it's startling. 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:39.480 But look, credit Trump a little bit. 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.080 He opened the tent large enough to make room for 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.280 all the tech leaders and they see a kind of 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:50.159 common cause with Trump on crypto, on anti trust, on 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.880 Mark and Dreesen calls it raising the tech flag building 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:58.320 acquiring investing, and I think you know, there's optimism, but 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:00.599 there's also opportunity. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.760 And they know that by closing up. 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.159 To Trump and contributing to the inauguration and being up there. 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.640 In the day is today, that that is good for business. 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.000 I mean, you make the point though, that you know 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:14.839 they have shifted in the last eight years. It's not 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.320 just that they're sort of suddenly waking up to the 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.760 reality of a second Trump term. So how much were 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:22.880 you surprised by any of what's happened in the last time. 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:28.000 Absolutely shocked, because you know, there did seem to be 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.719 a sense of legitimate resistance eight years ago. 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.719 But the world has changed. And Trump, as you know, 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:35.800 as I said, you know, to his credit, he's evolved. 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:37.320 Now there's not a lot of consistency. 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:39.560 I mean, he was the one who raised the idea 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.280 of banning TikTok and has just given it a reprieve. 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.800 He was anti crypto and just launched the Trump coin 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.359 and the Melennia coin to great enrichment of the family. 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.760 So he's seeing some of the political and frankly the 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:56.480 financial opportunities of being big Trump, being. 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:58.919 Big tech, big Trump. I think, well, that might be 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:00.520 even more appropriate. 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.719 Obviously financially, and that's a big part of all the 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.120 discussions around here. We have seen a lot of bedding 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:11.400 on and moving of money in line with the Trump agenda, 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:16.960 not just bitcoin, but price of oil, growth, stocks, the dollar. 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.000 They've all gone up there about eight percent. I was 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.240 looking at it this morning, since Donald Trump was elected, 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.880 and when I look at what the impact has already 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:30.200 been on countries like the UK, the big increase in 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.000 bond yield that's gone with this, you know, it feels 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:39.440 like already before he's done anything, any country with underlying weaknesses, 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:44.120 any government with underlying weaknesses, is having those exacerbated or 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:48.840 highlighted just by the fact of the Trump agenda, and 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:51.719 they're on the back foot. How would you say the 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.680 world has changed in particularly the sort of foreign policy 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:55.880 and financial markets. 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.839 What Brad said about tech is actually quite true of 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.280 business in general, and not just linked to Trump. I mean, 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.080 I think if you look around the world, compared with 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:11.000 say eight years ago, business people everywhere since both more 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:15.200 fear and more opportunity in their relations with government. The 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.920 idea when I first started coming to devoce that business 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:22.800 was this wonderful thing that existed outside the realms of government, 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.240 and it was all about kind of doing good and 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.640 all that sort of stuff. Now business people realize that 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.560 you can both get clobbered by government, and that applies 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:33.560 from Trump, but it also applies to the European Union 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.960 and lots of other places. But also it's a chance 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.920 for enrichment, as you know, TikTok is suddenly discovering and 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.920 lots of other people that people in the Midwest now 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:43.840 will be thinking, well, maybe we can make money out 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:45.840 of tariffs if they come our way. There'll be people 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.320 you know around here thinking about different things that they 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.920 might be able together if Europe puts up bigger barriers 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:54.920 and so on. So there's both kind of fear and 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.320 greed are driving business and government together, I think generally. 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.560 But on this specific question you said, you can see 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:04.840 it everywhere. You know, Britain has suddenly got somewhat sort 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.960 of freaked out by a kind of semi Liz Trust moment. 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.160 You can argue how much of this is Rachel We've 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.840 spoilt also, you know, and how much of it is 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.920 just the simple fact that Trump has arrived and everything 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:22.640 has been thrown into greater kind of impact either good 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.320 or bad. And I think that's almost almost a way 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:26.960 to look at Trump at the moment. He's sort of 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:31.400 throw every weakness or every strength is somehow being massively exaggerated. 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:33.280 Trump is always about exaggerating. 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.080 And when it comes to the UK, I mean if 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.920 you look at actually the sort of gap in borrowing 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.720 costs between the UK and the US has barely moved, 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.600 and yet all of the pressure, none of the pressure 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.640 in the UK has all been on the chancellor for 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.120 reasons that sort of pre date that change. Well, I 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.880 want it in a little bit good defense. I'm just 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.800 looking at the spread on as you'd expect any Bloomberg imparted, 0:08:57.520 --> 0:08:59.760 we will get onto some of these kind of broader 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.560 packs of basic things like the cost of money actually 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:03.720 going up along. 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:04.280 With all good news. 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:09.240 But Jenny, obviously a lot of the big news we've 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:13.959 seen have been trying to game out how serious Donald 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:17.720 Trump is on his agenda for tariffs, what it will 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:22.120 mean for different aspects of the global economy and different companies. So, 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:24.880 since you're usually the first to find out these things, 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.280 what's your sense so far? 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:31.000 Well, I would also say Washington has seen a big 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:35.600 shift since the last strund term on this. First of all, 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.280 they're all accepting the outcome that he's president again. But 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:43.679 we also see both parties coming together wanting to do 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.080 things together, which I think eight years ago we wouldn't 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:48.560 have imagined them talking about, oh, we need to actually 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.240 do something on the border, because that played into the 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:55.080 election outcome. Maybe Trump has a point here on trade, 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:59.160 on tariffs. They're talking about tariffs in a very different 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.640 way than eight years ago. The GOP that's in the 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.600 Congress right now, I think has many more Trump allies 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:08.719 than they did traditional free trade republicans eight years ago. 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.520 You know, we see TikTok is a massive shift from 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:17.240 a bipartisan, massively bipartisan legislation that passed saying this is 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.120 a national security threat, it has to be banned. All 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:24.120 of a sudden. Mike Walls, the incoming National Security Advisor, says, 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:25.920 this is a great app. I think I wish I 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.480 had it on my phone. That kind of shift is 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:32.320 what we're seeing right now. Doge is another example. This 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:34.520 is all things that we're seeing right now, and I 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.679 think when the rubber meets the road, we're going to 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.520 see if this actually sticks. I am a little bit 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.520 skeptical that everyone in the Republican Party will go along 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:46.120 with broad global tariffs hitting every country, every import. I 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:50.920 also think we've seen this from spending discussions in Washington. 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.920 When it comes to cutting your base in your district 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.480 or whatever project you care about, you know, they might 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.600 throw a fit. And I think that we'll see when 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.559 the rubber meets the road if they're actually that far 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:03.440 along in their shrift. 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.560 Well, we have had and you've been involved with some 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:07.880 of them. I mean, there have already been sort of 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:12.640 competing narratives coming out of the administration, precisely on tariffs, 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:14.800 because you have a sort of grown up view supposedly 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.400 that says, oh, they're going to be targeted. There was 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:19.679 a Washington Post story that talked about that, and then 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:21.520 quite a lot of pushback that seems to have come 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:23.880 from even from Donald Trump himself. 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:30.000 Yes, I will say we'll probably see a repeat of 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:32.440 what we saw eight years ago on the economic front 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:35.160 and the battle on the inside on tariffs. We have 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:39.240 two camps. Largely, even though Scott Besson and Hard Lutnik 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:41.560 I think are talking about tariffs now in a way 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.680 that are a little bit more in line with the 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:48.160 Hawks than Steven Mnuchan maybe did eight years ago as 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.560 his Treasury secretary. But we had reported that there is 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:57.320 an effort under way to stage the tariffs, to not 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:02.200 hit every country, every reimport with ten percent, twenty percent, 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:06.200 you name it, at one time, but kind of go gradually. 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.040 And the way it was described to us is this 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:13.080 is a negotiating play. We open this up, countries will 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:14.920 come to the table, we get something out of it, 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.040 but we don't cause massive inflation by hitting every good 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.360 with twenty percent. We report it this morning that he's 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.840 not going after China the way he promised on the 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.840 campaign trail. Of all the executive orders he will sign today, 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.800 there's not going to be anything on tariffs. There will 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.280 be no day on tariffs, even though everyone who's been 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:37.760 following his truth social posts, I think we're expecting China 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:43.079 tariffs for fentanyl, China tariffs for trade, Mexico Canada tariffs. 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.920 All that seems to have been put on pause for 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:49.679 we don't know how long. But that's the state of 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:55.600 play right now. And if you follow his public comments 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.720 but also privately, is what I'm told he has really 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:02.760 shifted on China to a much less adversarial tone. He 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.880 used to bring up in meetings with people his agrievances 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.200 about Beijing, and now we see he hopped on the phone. 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:14.160 He invited Chujingping to the inauguration. He's obviously not coming, 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:18.520 but sent his vice president. He tweeted about world peace 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.000 and he wants to save TikTok. And we also know 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:25.360 that nothing in Trump world really sticks for a very 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:29.520 long time. So this could all change tomorrow. If the 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.960 Hawks get in a room with the President and say, hey, 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.080 you know what, you really let down some of your 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.680 supporters who voted for you because you promised across the 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.880 world tariffs and you did nothing on day one, this 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:42.640 could sway him. 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:44.360 I mean what is funny is, of course, of all 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:48.040 the things in Trump's agenda on which both parties he 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:53.520 has united, it is an aggressive antipathy towards China. So 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:55.880 if that's the one thing that he steps back from 0:13:55.920 --> 0:14:02.520 will be interesting. But I mean, sorry, Elon, they need 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.120 for the need for pay Brad, this is this all, Elon. 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:08.440 I mean, you have the you emphasize some of the 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:09.880 things that the tech well will be quite happy to 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:11.760 see the back of if they can like the competition 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:15.920 efforts to reign in tech. But both the control on 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:22.880 immigration and indeed the measures against China stood to damage 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.280 quite large parts of silicon value will certainly not be 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.120 particularly in their interests. Are they Are they betting that 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.320 Elon's going to be the Trump whisperer. 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:31.280 And I think we don't know. 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:33.040 And I think you've put your finger on what will 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.840 be probably the most significant divide within the Trump rule 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:41.200 and coalition, and that's the line of thought represented by 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.400 Elon and his group of tech CEOs who are now 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:48.040 in government or advising government. And then I guess traditional 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.240 maga Steve Bannon and the like. And we're already seeing 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.680 clashes on issues like deportation and a T one B visas, 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.480 and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. 0:14:57.520 --> 0:14:59.080 But I mean, you know, if you go back eight 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:02.760 years ago, what we know about Trump is that he 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.400 is he is, he can be influenced, and he's quite transactional. 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:07.840 And so when you saw. 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.880 The parade of CEOs like Tim Cook to the White 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:16.280 House to carve out relief for companies like Apple, I 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.560 think I think it often comes down to who is 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:20.720 the loudest voice in his ear and who has he 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:21.760 talked to most recently. 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.680 So it's a big big tech will be fine. Potentially 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.080 big tech is betting they're fine. Small and medium sized 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:29.080 tech and other businesses, and probably, I. 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.640 Mean, it really depends, you know. He said at one 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:33.920 point that he thought Mark Zuckerberg should spend the rest 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:36.280 of his life in jail. And now zuck Is is 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:37.680 at the inauguration. 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.920 Today, will the attitude change? 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.040 You know, Elon's interests are in some ways quite opposed 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.440 to Marx, and so if Elon does have the loudest 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:48.600 voice in the room, maybe Mark's on a little bit 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:49.000 of trouble. 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:51.960 Joe mentioned it at the beginning. It is kind of 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:56.400 breathtaking the one eighty that corporate leaders seem to be 0:15:56.440 --> 0:16:01.840 doing on ESG on a lot of their net zero goals. 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.920 We just saw the six largest US banks all quitting 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:11.160 the UN sponsored net zero alliance and McDonald's, Walmart. They're 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:13.960 rolling back all their DEI initiatives. Did they not mean 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.400 it ever? Or is this the thing that's performative? 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.520 It is incredible. I will I'm slightly crossed with Lloyd 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.720 blank Vine for using the monitor thing, which I've used 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.480 countless times, but I advise everyone in this room to 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.640 go look at it. It is the most incredible series of 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.520 headlines that begin with the cannibal as escape from his hideout, 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.080 he will never escape the mountains, and then it ends 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.400 with the Emperor has arrived in Fontaine Lower with I 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:40.840 think this is imperial match just in fourteen days. But 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.920 that is pretty much what has happened with Suddenly CEOs 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.320 have jumped almost a medling and you can see it 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:49.600 just in terms of the sort of things they talk about. 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.520 They are moving back from things. I mean a lot 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:54.960 that some of this is posturing. It's just in the 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.160 same way as some of the diversity stuff maybe was 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:00.480 posturing in one way. Now some of the retreat is 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.000 the same thing. They don't want to get called out 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:07.280 for not taking profits as seriously as their rivals, and 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:09.119 a lot of these things they can fiddle with just 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:10.440 by changing the language a bit. 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:12.640 But globally, is there going to be a divide though, 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.480 because I mean you've already seen it. We learned today 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:19.600 actually the mess is not taking away all of the 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:23.280 sort of moderating that it had outside of the US. 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:26.919 How a big company is going to navigate that? Oh, 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:28.760 I'm very green for the rest of the world, but 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.399 I've given up on all my climate things in the. 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:33.160 I don't know what Brad. Brad may have different views 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:34.600 on this, but I tend to think there are two 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.480 different sort of things going on. One is the stuff 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:42.520 to do with tech and this enormous increase in wealth, 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:46.080 And if you look at throughout the history of commerce, 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.760 there's always been times where industries shoot from being the 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.320 people who everyone wants to be, whether you're Rockefeller and 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.520 Morgan one hundred years ago, to suddenly being the malefactors 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:59.040 of great wealth. And notwithstanding the recent love in I 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:02.960 think there is a real push to get the tech companies, 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.720 which is most obvious in Europe because they're all American, 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:09.320 but I think is generally there and it's going to 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:11.400 have touch points. We've got a film coming out on 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.920 the number of children who died because they'd be pushed 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.960 towards suicide videos and things like that. There is a 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:21.200 lot of nasty stuff around the tech companies per se, 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:24.480 and that's one issue, and we'll see what happens on that, 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:29.520 and that's obviously slightly altered by Elon's presence. But the 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:33.160 other one, more generally is business. I think on the whole. 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.720 You know, most business people, there's quite a lot to 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.760 gain from Trump if he does deregulate. Two big things 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.040 they don't like is one the idea of immigration taking 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.000 taking away workers they would need. And as Jenny was saying, 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.920 on tariffs, and that will be the area. But I do, yes, 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.240 I do think there is a there are divides there 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.800 and there will be a big divide between Europe and America. 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:54.240 I think that's very difficult to avoid. 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.040 Have you seen, Jenny, have you seen sort of in 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:02.840 the in Washington and elsewhere, anyone kind of standing up 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:06.960 for DEI or well in climate I mean, there's a 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.959 lot of support in Congress for still continuing to come 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:11.960 up climate change. 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.520 Yeah, but there's only so much you can do when 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.680 you're in the minority in both houses, so everything they 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.399 say kind of goes into avoid. I don't see anything 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:25.159 coming together as an actual initiative, you know, legislation they 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:30.440 can't really pass without any Republicans, So it's sort of statements. 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:32.439 Yeah, And can I just add, I mean, for at 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.120 least for tech CEOs, they have seen, they have watched 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.320 as both the legal and the political environment shifted. So 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.280 the Supreme Court struck down race based admissions at Harvard, 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:46.520 you know, in terms of the political environment, just what 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.800 seems to be like a full shift away from the 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.960 principles of DEI. For a long time, they were criticized 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:55.600 for creating a discriminatory environment. 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:56.639 They you know, did these. 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:00.320 Annual transparency reports around the makeup of their workforces and 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.520 essentially showed no progress and got clobbered year after year. 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:05.720 And so I do think there's a feeling of like 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:10.560 genuine relief that they can, with political safety kind of 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:12.119 retreat from some of these commitments. 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:14.399 And I think at least in the US, there's a 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:16.720 realization that the population is. 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.160 A lot more conservative than what was if you look 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.199 at poles surrounding like mass deportation. You know, generally it 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:25.719 feels like, and the election demonstrated it, that the country 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:27.120 is supporting some of. 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:28.040 These Trump ideals. 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:31.600 And so with that cover, the tech CEOs at least 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:33.840 feel they're on safe ground to retreat from some of 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:35.800 these things that always made them feel uncomfortable. 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.040 There had been a lot of hand ringing around the 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:40.600 development of AI and how the training of the large 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:44.640 language models and others on data was inherently biasing them 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:49.320 in favor of you know, stereotypes that came alongside the 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.280 DEI agenda, you know, concern about that. Do you think 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.520 that's going to stay or do will companies now feel 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:55.400 that I have to work about. 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:59.399 Well, Zuckerberg just promised a lot more masculine energy and 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:02.160 the Facebook, so I don't look, I mean, I think 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.199 we're going to still hear those critiques level at the 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:07.840 tech companies, and I don't know if in this environment 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:10.440 they will have as much traction as they once did. 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:14.280 So, Jenny, we have already talked implicitly about this, but 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.359 I'm interested in how it feels as a reporter on 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:19.240 the ground. There's always been a lot of corporate interests 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:23.560