Speaker 1: Guess what will?
Speaker 2: What's that mango?
Speaker 1: So you know how there are names of groups of animals,
Speaker 1: like I think a group of crows is a murder
Speaker 1: of crows, or if you have a group of rhinoceros,
Speaker 1: it's called a crash, not a squad, which you know,
Speaker 1: I guess Taylor Swift or my son would call them.
Speaker 1: It's a crash.
Speaker 2: Just one more similarity between Taylor Swift and your son.
Speaker 2: You forgot a couple of my favorites though. I've always
Speaker 2: loved smack of jellyfish, and then of course a business
Speaker 2: of ferrets, which I don't know why, but that's my favorite.
Speaker 1: I think it is pretty great. So I found this
Speaker 1: video online called how to Care for Your Introvert, which
Speaker 1: claims that a pair of introverts is actually called an
Speaker 1: awkward and a group of introverts is what you call
Speaker 1: an angst.
Speaker 2: Is this real?
Speaker 1: Of course not, but the whole video is joking and fun,
Speaker 1: and it points out that introverts are rarely found together
Speaker 1: in the wild. So these are mostly theoretical terms anyway.
Speaker 1: But as you know, I'm definitely an introvert, and when
Speaker 1: I was in high school I almost used to bristle
Speaker 1: at this phrase like all great figures and history or
Speaker 1: seen as charismatic and big characters. And I figured, you know,
Speaker 1: I could be fun at a party, I have friends,
Speaker 1: I do things, so I figured there was no way
Speaker 1: I should be lumped in with the introverts. But then
Speaker 1: in college I quickly realized I am such an introvert,
Speaker 1: especially when I compare myself to my wife, who just
Speaker 1: crams in so many things into her social calendar. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense to me. But you know,
Speaker 1: this whole thing has made me wonder what does being
Speaker 1: an introvert really mean? Like do you have to be
Speaker 1: strictly an introvert or an extrovert? Or is there a spectrum?
Speaker 1: Do our brains actually behave differently? And is it okay
Speaker 1: for me to hit the closed door button on an
Speaker 1: elevator when someone's trying to catch a ride with me,
Speaker 1: Because I would really love a scientific excuse to say
Speaker 1: that's all right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's dive in.
Speaker 2: Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Speaker 2: Will Pearson, and as always I'm joined by my good
Speaker 2: friend mangesh Hot Ticketerter and on the other side of
Speaker 2: the soundproof glass sporting yet another one of his classic
Speaker 2: t shirts. This one just says Introvert Social Club. Why
Speaker 2: go big when you can go home? This is one
Speaker 2: of my favorites of his. But that's our friend and
Speaker 2: producer Tristan McNeil, and I've got to say, for an
Speaker 2: introverted guy, he definitely speaks volumes with his shirts. Mang,
Speaker 2: wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 1: Definitely?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, one thing I realized while doing the
Speaker 2: research for today's show is that introverts can be pretty
Speaker 2: tough to pin down in terms of personality. And you know,
Speaker 2: most of us hear the term, we immediately think of
Speaker 2: traits like sensitivity or introspection or maybe quietness. I mean,
Speaker 2: but the truth is, none of those things are guaranteed
Speaker 2: signs of introversion. And that's because introversion is definitely a
Speaker 2: spectrum rather than being this one set way of being.
Speaker 2: So with that distinction in mind, I thought we could
Speaker 2: use this episode as a way to kind of set
Speaker 2: the record straight on what's probably one of the more
Speaker 2: misunderstood aspects of human personality. So we're going to look
Speaker 2: at the science behind introversion as well as how our
Speaker 2: society tends to view introverted people and we'll also run
Speaker 2: through some of the pros and cons to really see
Speaker 2: how introverts stack up against their more outgoing counterparts.
Speaker 1: And to kick things off, I thought we could talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about what introversion is and also what
Speaker 1: it isn't. So to start from the beginning, the terms
Speaker 1: introvert and extrovert were first coined by Carl Jung way
Speaker 1: back in nineteen twenty one. He used them mainly as
Speaker 1: a way to distinguish between two prevalent types of personality,
Speaker 1: those who feel more connected to their inward thoughts and
Speaker 1: feelings and those who focus primarily on the external world.
Speaker 1: And really, that was it, like, There was no stigma,
Speaker 1: no rank attached to one or another. You know. It
Speaker 1: wasn't like my wife who tells me you introverts think
Speaker 1: you're so special, right, These were just two different, equally
Speaker 1: valid ways of experiencing and the world. Yeah, And in
Speaker 1: the years since then, other researchers have expanded on Jung's ideas.
Speaker 1: Of course, there's no catch all definition for the term,
Speaker 1: but there are at least a few things we can
Speaker 1: say about introverts in general. For example, introverts tend to
Speaker 1: be good listeners who think before they speak, they enjoy
Speaker 1: time alone. They usually need less stimulation than extroverts when
Speaker 1: it comes to entertainment, and while they typically tire of
Speaker 1: small talk quickly, they can talk your ear off when
Speaker 1: they're given the chance to dig into a topic they
Speaker 1: really care about, you know. And I think this was
Speaker 1: something that I've really thought about in the past week
Speaker 1: or so as we've been working on this topic. And
Speaker 1: that's the fact that no one is really one hundred
Speaker 1: percent introverted or one hundred percent extroverted, other than my
Speaker 1: ninety one year old mamma. I think she's pretty close
Speaker 1: to one hundred percent extrovert. Such an extrovert, she's.
Speaker 2: Definitely an extrovert. But but we're all really more of
Speaker 2: a mix of both personality types. And I've actually realized
Speaker 2: that about the two of us. If people were looking
Speaker 2: at the two of us, most people would say, you're
Speaker 2: an introvert and I'm an extrovert. But really, as we've
Speaker 2: been doing the research, you kind of realize there is
Speaker 2: this very real mix. It's just that most of us
Speaker 2: lean harder one way than the.
Speaker 1: Other, definitely, and that's why you'll find like a quiet
Speaker 1: classmate or a coworker can actually be a really engaging
Speaker 1: public speaker, and that's because of this big cultural and
Speaker 1: misconception that all introverts are incredibly shy people who can
Speaker 1: never get up in front of an audience without cracking
Speaker 1: under the pressure. But in reality, introversion is a completely
Speaker 1: different thing than shyness. So I'm not sure if you
Speaker 1: remember that groundbreaking book on introverts. It was written by
Speaker 1: Susan Kine. It's called Quiet. It came out about Yeah,
Speaker 1: it came out about five or six years ago, and
Speaker 1: it's full of really insightful takes on introversion. And one
Speaker 1: of the things Susan covers is that shyness and being
Speaker 1: an introvert are driven by completely different forces. So listen
Speaker 1: to how she explains it. Quote, Shyness is the fear
Speaker 1: of social disapproval or humiliation, while introversion is a preference
Speaker 1: for environments that are not over stimulating. Shyness is inherently painful,
Speaker 1: introversion is not.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's such an interesting quote from that,
Speaker 2: because those are definitely two words that I think people
Speaker 2: have just assumed kind of meant the same thing. But
Speaker 2: so think a little bit more about it. So shyness
Speaker 2: is more of a reaction than a way of being,
Speaker 2: And so as a result, you could even have an
Speaker 2: extrovert who might really enjoy being around crowds but actually
Speaker 2: is deathly afraid of being in the spotlight themselves.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and in the same way, it's possible to have
Speaker 1: an introvert who's also shy. Since shyness is a learned behavior,
Speaker 1: an introvert could develop a fear of social situations because
Speaker 1: they've been made to feel like they don't measure up
Speaker 1: to extroverts. So it could actually be this I guess,
Speaker 1: the self fulfilling prophecy.
Speaker 2: M hmm. Well, and there's that same kind of misconception
Speaker 2: about social anxiety. I mean, a lot of people would
Speaker 2: assume that that condition goes hand in hand with introversion,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't necessarily. I mean, social anxiety is similar
Speaker 2: to shyness, and that it's largely learned behavior, but anxiety
Speaker 2: also tends to run in family is without question a
Speaker 2: very real genetic link there as well. It's just, you know,
Speaker 2: a more extreme form of self consciousness than either shyness
Speaker 2: or introversion. And just trying to think of an example
Speaker 2: of this, I mean, somebody with social anxiety might feel
Speaker 2: totally incapable in a social situation. You know, maybe they
Speaker 2: tell themselves they don't have anything to contribute, or that
Speaker 2: people will ignore or misunderstand them, so why bother even
Speaker 2: saying anything. But I mean, that's generally not the case
Speaker 2: with introverts. In fact, many of them are pretty adept
Speaker 2: at kind of you know, you might say, turning on
Speaker 2: their social skills when they need to.
Speaker 1: All right, well, now that we know some of the
Speaker 1: things that introversion is not, we should talk about what
Speaker 1: it actually is. And like you allude to at the
Speaker 1: top of the show, that's kind of easier said than done,
Speaker 1: because most popular definitions fail to capture the range of
Speaker 1: ways that introversion manifests in people like we tend to
Speaker 1: view introversion as opposite to extroversion. So if an extroverts outspoken,
Speaker 1: then an introvert is tight liped. This is kind of
Speaker 1: a dumbing down of distinctions, and it's really nothing new.
Speaker 1: But thankfully there's been a lot more research on the subject,
Speaker 1: and that includes the work of a psychology professor at
Speaker 1: Wellesley College named Jonathan Cheek. So a few years back,
Speaker 1: he surveyed a group of five hundred adults, and he
Speaker 1: asked them everything from how often they daydream, how important
Speaker 1: they consider solitude for their well being, all sorts of
Speaker 1: questions like this, and then Cheek used their responses to
Speaker 1: help develop what he called the star chart. But you
Speaker 1: know you don't have to worry about this, well, I
Speaker 1: know you've got a version of astrology. This has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with where mercury is rising and star. It's
Speaker 1: actually a breakdown of what Cheek considers the four types
Speaker 1: of introversion. So it's social thinking, anxious, and restraint.
Speaker 2: Even better, so we've got an acronym, and you know
Speaker 2: I love a good acronym, So I now I feel
Speaker 2: like you deserve the chance to kind of give us
Speaker 2: a rundown of what falls in each of those those
Speaker 2: four categories.
Speaker 1: Sure, so the S is social introversion, and this is
Speaker 1: probably what a lot of people would think of when
Speaker 1: they're asked to describe introverts, right, Like, it's basically a
Speaker 1: preference for small groups over large ones, for more solitary activities,
Speaker 1: you know, think about things like reading a book or
Speaker 1: watching a movie. Thinking introversion, which is the tea that's
Speaker 1: a little different Introverts with this type don't mind like
Speaker 1: big social events or these highly stimulating environments, and that's
Speaker 1: mainly because they're really connected to their interior world.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: All that commotion around them is really drowned out by
Speaker 1: all the introspection that they go through in self reflection
Speaker 1: that occupies their minds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so these are people. I mean, it kind of
Speaker 2: makes me think of the phrase where we talk about
Speaker 2: people being in their own little world.
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, exactly. And the example I read try
Speaker 1: to lay it out in Harry Potter terms, which is
Speaker 1: of course very much appreciated. And in that case, the
Speaker 1: socially awkward level would be a social introvert, while a
Speaker 1: thinking introvert would be someone more like Luna Lovegood, you know,
Speaker 1: who's sort of dreamily creative.
Speaker 2: Right, that makes sense. I feel like everything makes more
Speaker 2: sense when you can explain it in Harry Potter terms.
Speaker 2: So definitely we'll try to do that with all future episodes.
Speaker 2: But all right, so that's the S and the T.
Speaker 2: So how about the A and the R.
Speaker 1: Right, So next up is anxious introversion. As you might
Speaker 1: guess from the name, this refers to introverts who have
Speaker 1: also some form of social anxiety, and it's characterized by
Speaker 1: a tendency to kind of overthink things and also to
Speaker 1: dwell on your mistakes or perceived mistakes for well after
Speaker 1: the fact. I mean, it really is, it can be crippling.
Speaker 1: And lastly, there's the R and star, which refers to
Speaker 1: restrained or reserved, and these are people who take a
Speaker 1: little while to get going. So instead of diving straight
Speaker 1: into a conversation, a restrained introvert might you know, hear
Speaker 1: what everyone has to say, really take their time to
Speaker 1: absorb and think on it and then offer their own thoughts.
Speaker 1: So pretty much they're the think first, act later people
Speaker 1: in the world.
Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense, And I feel like this four
Speaker 2: way system definitely covers more ground than just the one
Speaker 2: blanket term. But I have to also think that, you know,
Speaker 2: there's an awful lot of overlap between the different types,
Speaker 2: Like I can imagine somebody being a part thinking introvert
Speaker 2: and part restrained introvert or some other combination of.
Speaker 1: These four definitely, and when she came up with this model,
Speaker 1: he really wanted to expand the definition of introvert, not
Speaker 1: just replace it with these four strict types. So according
Speaker 1: to him, plenty of introverts. There are actually a mix
Speaker 1: of all four types.
Speaker 2: All right, well, I'd say we have a pretty good
Speaker 2: grasp on what goes into being an introvert. So why
Speaker 2: don't we switch gears a little bit and talk about
Speaker 2: the science of introversion. Because it isn't by chance that
Speaker 2: introverts and extroverts think differently. I mean their brains are
Speaker 2: actually different. For example, if you look at brain scans
Speaker 2: of the two different types of brains, you'd see a
Speaker 2: thicker prefrontal cortex in introverts when you compare them to extroverts.
Speaker 2: And since that part of the brain is connected with
Speaker 2: things like deep thought and planning, that bigger cortex might
Speaker 2: actually explain why introverts tend to be less impulsive than extroverts. Now,
Speaker 2: instead of processing new information directly, these introverts first run
Speaker 2: it through the neural pathway that deals with planning and
Speaker 2: long term MIMI. And so this is why introverts might
Speaker 2: actually take longer to make a decision or former response,
Speaker 2: because they're comparing old and new experiences and even weighing
Speaker 2: the potential outcomes while they moul things over, and so
Speaker 2: this can slow the thinking process down a pretty good
Speaker 2: bit actually, But it also results in these carefully thought
Speaker 2: out responses and choices, and that's not something that you
Speaker 2: always get with extroverts.
Speaker 1: Which is interesting. You know, I hadn't heard about that
Speaker 1: bigger cortex this thing, but now I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: going to brag to everyone about how large my cortex
Speaker 1: probably is.
Speaker 2: I knew that that was coming. I know you're gonna
Speaker 2: be bragging about this NonStop.
Speaker 1: So Actually, the differences between introverted and extroverted brains that
Speaker 1: I've always heard about is the way we respond to dopamine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know we've talked about this before. Dopamine is
Speaker 1: one of the neurotransmitters that's closely tied to our sensation
Speaker 1: of pleasure, especially when it comes to seeking rewards or
Speaker 1: taking risks, and dopamine has similar effects on introverts and
Speaker 1: extroverts alike. When it hits your brain, you feel more alert,
Speaker 1: you might be more talkative, more motivated to take chances,
Speaker 1: and in fact, introverts and extroverts even have the same
Speaker 1: amount of dopamine in their bodies. The difference is that
Speaker 1: dopamine triggers the reward network much more strongly in the
Speaker 1: brains of extroverts. So take something like earning a promotion
Speaker 1: at work that would likely generate excitement in both kinds
Speaker 1: of people, right, but the extrovert would feel that excitement
Speaker 1: to a much greater degree than the introvert, which I.
Speaker 2: Don't know, when you think about it, feels like kind
Speaker 2: of a raw deal for the introverse. If it feels
Speaker 2: like they're getting jipped on the whole dopamine thing, I guess.
Speaker 1: Well, don't feel too bad just yet, because there's actually
Speaker 1: another transmitter, as a newer transmitter called acetylchline, and it's
Speaker 1: also associated with pleasure, but this one is the go
Speaker 1: to choice for introverts looking to unwind, and unlike dopamine,
Speaker 1: acetyl coline generates these happy feelings for more inward focused activities,
Speaker 1: so like thinking deeply about something or concentrating on one
Speaker 1: thing for an extended period. And the chemical is tied
Speaker 1: to the parasympathetic side of the nervous system, which is
Speaker 1: nicknamed the throttle down or the rest and digest side.
Speaker 1: So if Netflix and Chill is actually your past time
Speaker 1: a choice, you can thank a seedtle colin for that.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, since we're getting into the comparisons between
Speaker 2: introverts and extroverts. I feel like we should go through
Speaker 2: our list of pros and cons and see how the
Speaker 2: two ways of being kind of stack up against one another.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds fun to me. But first, let's take
Speaker 1: a quick break.
Speaker 2: If you're listening to part Time Genius and we're talking
Speaker 2: about the not so subtle differences between introverts and extroverts,
Speaker 2: All right, mego. So the first introvert advantage that I
Speaker 2: want to talk about is their nack for being able
Speaker 2: to read people. Because when it comes to judging how
Speaker 2: another person will think, or feel or act, we show
Speaker 2: that introverts make better inferences than you know, extroverts, and
Speaker 2: that's almost every single time. And we do know this
Speaker 2: thanks to a study from a team of psychologists at Yale,
Speaker 2: because they were asking more than one thousand participants about
Speaker 2: how the average person would react in different social situations. So,
Speaker 2: for example, this one comes straight from the test, and
Speaker 2: here's the question. It's quote, people are usually overly confident
Speaker 2: in the accuracy of their judgments true or false.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have to say true on that, but
Speaker 1: I also feel like I might be being overconfident in you.
Speaker 2: Of course, but actually you got the correct answer on
Speaker 2: this one. But anyway, after the survey, the researchers rounded
Speaker 2: up the highest scoring participants and then they ran a
Speaker 2: series of psychological tests, and they did this to determine
Speaker 2: which personality traits these people had in common. Now, it's
Speaker 2: not surprising that the respondents who made the most accurate
Speaker 2: judgments were more likely to be intelligent and interested in
Speaker 2: problem solving than those who scored poorly. But the more
Speaker 2: surprising finding was that these same people were also more introverted.
Speaker 2: And as one of the studies authors explains, quote, it
Speaker 2: could be that the introverted people are spending more time
Speaker 2: observing human nature than those who are busy interacting with others,
Speaker 2: or they are more accurate in introspection because they have
Speaker 2: fewer motivational biases. They don't view the world through rose
Speaker 2: colored glasses as jovial and extroverted people do.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean that does track with what we were
Speaker 1: saying about introverts and how they have a tendency to
Speaker 1: think carefully and be more observant of their surroundings.
Speaker 2: That's true, but I don't want to get accused of
Speaker 2: serious bias here, so I should point out that there
Speaker 2: was a drawback to the introverts perception powers in this
Speaker 2: same study, because along with that intelligence and curiosity, those
Speaker 2: highest scoring participants also reported being more lonely and maybe
Speaker 2: having lower self esteem than their more extroverted counterparts. So
Speaker 2: it's not really an across the board win for either
Speaker 2: one of these groups.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and those kind of trade offs kind of pop
Speaker 1: up a lot when you compare introverts and extroverts, And
Speaker 1: I mean, it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that
Speaker 1: both types of people would excel and also lag in
Speaker 1: different ways. You know, if one way of being was
Speaker 1: decidedly better than the other, it feels like we still
Speaker 1: wouldn't have both types of people in the world. And
Speaker 1: if you think about how these different traits might have
Speaker 1: emerged in the first place, it's easy to see their
Speaker 1: respective evolutionary advantages. Like if you took like prehistoric introverts,
Speaker 1: they likely would have stuck close to the cave and
Speaker 1: avoided predators, which would have increased their chances of not
Speaker 1: being eaten. And on the other hand, like the extroverted
Speaker 1: cavemen would have wandered far and wide and they would
Speaker 1: have had the instincts to look for new types of
Speaker 1: food and shelter and all of that when shelter was
Speaker 1: in short supply.
Speaker 2: And that's a good point. I'd not really thought about
Speaker 2: that way. But I mean, what would you make of
Speaker 2: the idea that introverts tend to be more melancholic? I mean,
Speaker 2: I know, I've heard before that extroverts are happier people
Speaker 2: overall when they're measured against introverts, and that study, for
Speaker 2: Meal does seem to lend some credence to that theory.
Speaker 2: So I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I've actually seen those studies before too, and
Speaker 1: they're usually center on that dopamine reaction that we talked
Speaker 1: about earlier. And the truth is, happiness levels are pretty
Speaker 1: evenly matched between introverts and extroverts when it comes I
Speaker 1: guess to like inwardly focused activities, you know, watching TV,
Speaker 1: listening to music, reading a book. But the real disparity
Speaker 1: arises when you look at happiness levels during social activities
Speaker 1: and the ones where some kind of reward is at stake,
Speaker 1: and in those cases, extroverts really have the advantage. But
Speaker 1: you know, according to Susan Kine, this is more about
Speaker 1: how we define happiness than it is about who's objectively happier.
Speaker 1: For example, in Western culture is like our own, we
Speaker 1: have a habit of viewing happiness as an active state.
Speaker 1: It's sort of this explosive enthusiasm and excitement and giddiness.
Speaker 1: And you know that's not the case for Eastern cultures,
Speaker 1: where happiness is seen as something more passive of its
Speaker 1: contentment and peacefulness and almost this feeling of being present
Speaker 1: and focused in the moment. So Kin actually has a
Speaker 1: quote on this. She says, when introverts talk about the
Speaker 1: things that they most love to do, it's very often
Speaker 1: activities like reading, hiking, cycling, being with their spouses, being
Speaker 1: with their children. It's a quieter type of contentment that
Speaker 1: often fuels introverts and that we don't pay proper attention to.
Speaker 1: But speaking of proper attention, you know that might be
Speaker 1: another reason that extroverts report such higher levels of happiness,
Speaker 1: because they're less introspective, and because of that, they also
Speaker 1: tend to overlook drawbacks and great experiences on a curve. So,
Speaker 1: for example, an extrovert might say that they had a
Speaker 1: great time at a party and not even mention things
Speaker 1: like there wasn't enough food to go around, or that
Speaker 1: the sound system kept going out. But I guess I
Speaker 1: feel like you're.
Speaker 2: Using specific examples from things.
Speaker 1: These are things that happened at a party a one too.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, an introvert would likely notice all
Speaker 1: these little details and you know, have a better sy
Speaker 1: of how it impacted everyone's overall experience. But you know,
Speaker 1: in the end, it could be that the introverts are
Speaker 1: more inclined to give this less rosy and potentially more
Speaker 1: accurate assessment of how happy they really are.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's probably true, But I mean,
Speaker 2: back to what we were saying about those trade offs,
Speaker 2: and to be fair, there are costs to being an
Speaker 2: extrovert as well. I mean, we mentioned that extroverts have
Speaker 2: this pensiont for risk taking, and so as you might expect,
Speaker 2: that tendency can backfire in some pretty damaging ways. I mean,
Speaker 2: as an example, extroverts are more likely to be hospitalized
Speaker 2: for an accident or for an illness than introverts are,
Speaker 2: and they're more likely to develop criminal behaviors. They're more
Speaker 2: likely to get arrested too.
Speaker 1: Like all of these things are true, that can't be true.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're more likely to be arrested.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is why I'm trying to claim that I'm
Speaker 2: not as much of an extrovert as I once thought
Speaker 2: that I was. I mean, but I guess it makes
Speaker 2: sense if you're impulsive instead of a planner. But this
Speaker 2: does come from the journal Comprehensive Psychiatry, and this was
Speaker 2: from recent search conducted at Johns Hopkins and at the
Speaker 2: Bloomberg School of Public Health. So Mango, that sounds about
Speaker 2: as legit as it gets.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so bizarre, but you know what, we've been
Speaker 1: focusing on differences. I do want to make sure that
Speaker 1: we mentioned some of the similarities between introverts and extroverts,
Speaker 1: and this is a pretty unexpected one. So you know
Speaker 1: how introverts need time alone to kind of recharge their
Speaker 1: batteries after a social outing. Yeah, I feel like this
Speaker 1: is always the definition I've always used for introversion. And
Speaker 1: obviously these people can turn on their extroverted behavior for
Speaker 1: a while, but they eventually start to feel drained and
Speaker 1: just want to go home and relax. But it turns
Speaker 1: out that too much socializing can actually be exhausting for everyone,
Speaker 1: even extroverts. So a couple of years ago. This finished
Speaker 1: research team found that the more people were acting extroverted,
Speaker 1: the more they reported being in a positive mood and
Speaker 1: feeling unfatigued in the moment. However, after three hours of socializing,
Speaker 1: people report these higher levels of fatigue, and this was
Speaker 1: true for both introverts and extroverts.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, but three hours of intent socializing. That
Speaker 2: just sounds exhausting. Like, I don't know who wouldn't be
Speaker 2: tired by that? But Clinton, I think you're probably right.
Speaker 2: But I mean, it is interesting that acting introverted netted
Speaker 2: the same positive mood boost for both the introverts and
Speaker 2: the extroverts, at least, you know, for a little while.
Speaker 2: And I guess it goes to show that humans really
Speaker 2: are social animals, just to differing degrees, I guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's probably a safe bet. But before
Speaker 1: we move on, I want to point out that not
Speaker 1: all people lean towards extroversion or introversion. There's actually a
Speaker 1: third kind of person called an ambivert, and these are
Speaker 1: the people who follow right smack in the middle of
Speaker 1: the spectrum, and it's actually way more common than I
Speaker 1: would have expected. I thought these were like unicorns, but
Speaker 1: In fact, according to one study, ambiverts make up about
Speaker 1: thirty eight percent of the population at any given time.
Speaker 2: It's kind of a weird word, though, don't you think
Speaker 2: like you called an ambivert?
Speaker 1: But uh, it's really an insult.
Speaker 2: I mean, I am curious that, like, where do ambiverts
Speaker 2: land in terms of the kinds of advantages that we've
Speaker 2: been talking about.
Speaker 1: So the thing is that fewer studies have been commissioned
Speaker 1: on amiverts is partially because scientists love studying the extremes.
Speaker 1: But there was a management expert named Adam Grant who
Speaker 1: conducted a study back in twenty thirteen. He surveyed three
Speaker 1: hundred and forty call center employees and found that two
Speaker 1: thirds of them considered themselves neither introverted nor extroverted. And
Speaker 1: while you might think the extroverts would have this clear
Speaker 1: advantage when it came to talking on the phone for
Speaker 1: a living, Grant actually found that it was the ambiverts
Speaker 1: who closed most of the sales.
Speaker 2: And do we know why?
Speaker 1: That is not entirely but Grant's theories that ambiverts are
Speaker 1: just better suited for both aspects of a sales call.
Speaker 1: You know, they could do the talking, they could also
Speaker 1: do the listening, and as he explained, ambiverts are quote
Speaker 1: likely to express the servedness and enthusiasm to persuade and
Speaker 1: close the sale, but are more inclined to listen and
Speaker 1: also are less vulnerable to appearing too excited or overconfident.
Speaker 2: And I guess it makes a lot of sense when
Speaker 2: you think about it. But I'm glad you've broached this
Speaker 2: subject of job proficiency though, because one thing that I
Speaker 2: was looking into this week is how introverts are faring
Speaker 2: intoday's job market. I mean, it's not surprising that they've
Speaker 2: had a rough go of things in the past, both
Speaker 2: in terms of business and in society as a whole.
Speaker 2: But I was really trying to get a sense of
Speaker 2: whether things have gotten any easier for introverts in the
Speaker 2: information age.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you think about that Moneyball example, where
Speaker 1: people who ran funny or didn't look handsome enough were
Speaker 1: considered less exciting prospects and then less valued, and you
Speaker 1: can see how that might apply similarly to quiet employees.
Speaker 1: But let's take another quick break and then dive back in. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: so I know you wanted to talk about how society
Speaker 1: views introverts, and I think I have the perfect Susan
Speaker 1: Kane quote to set the stage. You know, at the
Speaker 1: beginning of her book Quiet, she writes, quote, today we
Speaker 1: make room for a remarkably narrow range of personality styles.
Speaker 1: We're told that to be great is to be bold,
Speaker 1: to be happy is to be sociable. We see ourselves
Speaker 1: as a nation of extroverts, which means that we have
Speaker 1: lost sight of who we really are. Depending on which
Speaker 1: study you consult, one third to one half of Americans
Speaker 1: or introverts. In other words, one out of every two
Speaker 1: or three people. You know, if you are not an
Speaker 1: introvert yourself, you're surely raising, managing, married to, or coupled
Speaker 1: with one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's got to be true. And it's
Speaker 2: clear that our country has a strong bias toward extroversion.
Speaker 2: And actually this is something Kane experienced firsthand. I mean,
Speaker 2: she was an attorney and a negotiator before she ever
Speaker 2: decided to get into writing, and she experienced this all
Speaker 2: through her career. Kane says she felt ashamed of being
Speaker 2: an introvert, and not only did she come to view
Speaker 2: her quietness and reserve as somewhat of her professional disadvantage.
Speaker 2: She even considered it a behavioral defect, I mean, something
Speaker 2: to correct or overcome, which is really unfortunate to think about.
Speaker 2: And really it's no wonder she felt this way because
Speaker 2: most schools and businesses, they're pressuring us all our lives
Speaker 2: to be more extroverted and to get out of our
Speaker 2: heads and complete work in groups and complete you know,
Speaker 2: things as a team. So it's not surprising that people
Speaker 2: would think this way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I hadn't thought about this before, but
Speaker 1: most of our institutions are clearly set to cater to
Speaker 1: extroverts and the kinds of stimulation they enjoy. Like if
Speaker 1: you think about brainstorming meetings where the most upbeat person
Speaker 1: in the office stands at a whiteboard and kind of
Speaker 1: coaxes ideas out of everyone be there's at least forty
Speaker 1: years of research that says individuals brainstorming on their own
Speaker 1: come up with better ideas than groups do. But most
Speaker 1: businesses have missed that memo.
Speaker 2: You know, I feel like Mango, this is one of
Speaker 2: those episodes where every time you're mentioning things, I'm like,
Speaker 2: you've got somebody specific in mind. I know it, but anyway,
Speaker 2: but you think about that group think mentality that it's
Speaker 2: become the standard in most US schools as well. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, the idea that these off the cuff interactions
Speaker 2: will produce these new or creative ideas, and that is
Speaker 2: probably true in some cases, but that approach definitely discounts
Speaker 2: the creativity that comes with being in solitude sometimes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's a shame too, because you don't
Speaker 1: want kids to think their natural inclinations are invalid. Like
Speaker 1: sometimes you see the parents of preschool or elementary age
Speaker 1: students making apologies for their children's introversion, you know, like
Speaker 1: I'm sorry he's so quiet or something like that. I've
Speaker 1: been guilty of this in the past, and so many
Speaker 1: of these kids grow up making the same apologies for themselves,
Speaker 1: as if their innate personalities or something they should apologize for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, but you know, thanks to the work
Speaker 2: of Susan Kin and of course others, we've been thinking
Speaker 2: about this and our society has been showing introverts I think,
Speaker 2: a lot more empathy in recent years. And you know,
Speaker 2: from shirts like the one Tristan's rocking and rocking so
Speaker 2: well today rocking is so hard, Oh man, you think
Speaker 2: about the countless listicals and introvert quizzes that we're all
Speaker 2: bombarded with, and being an introvert in America is now
Speaker 2: more accepted than any other time in history. In fact,
Speaker 2: one nice side effect of the culture becoming more accepting
Speaker 2: of introversion is that it opens up these new career
Speaker 2: opportunities for introverts. And in fact, have you heard this
Speaker 2: podcast that's called Hiding in the Bathroom. I have not,
Speaker 2: so it's hosted by an introverted blogger turned podcaster named
Speaker 2: maraa Aaron's Meal, and it's basically an ongoing rebuttal to
Speaker 2: the idea that introversion is always a weakness and extraversion
Speaker 2: is always a strength.
Speaker 1: Which is so weird an introvert podcaster. I feel like,
Speaker 1: who would have heard of such a thing?
Speaker 2: I mean, that can't even be possible, can it?
Speaker 1: I don't think so.
Speaker 2: Well, it makes perfect sense that introverts might thrive in
Speaker 2: a field like that. I mean, after all, podcasts walk
Speaker 2: that line between private and public. I guess yeah.
Speaker 1: And I mean it's the same thing we touched on
Speaker 1: earlier about how some introverts actually make great public speakers
Speaker 1: because they enjoyed the opportunity to dig in and really
Speaker 1: think about these topics and death, which is you know
Speaker 1: why everyone should actually listen to Susan Kan's Ted Talk,
Speaker 1: because it's really really wonderful.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, the Internet has also been a boon for introverts.
Speaker 2: I mean, you get to actively engage with so many
Speaker 2: different people, all from this relative comfort and safety of
Speaker 2: your own home. What's interesting is that introverts are finding
Speaker 2: new career opportunities away from their screens too. This is
Speaker 2: according to Smithsonian, introverts are in high demand on Mars,
Speaker 2: or at least on these NASA missions to Mars because,
Speaker 2: according to a twenty fourteen report, researchers now believe that
Speaker 2: extroverts could be a quote liability on long term space mission.
Speaker 1: Is that just because they're afraid there'd be too many
Speaker 1: criminals in the.
Speaker 2: Midda yeah, way too many criminals now, I mean it's
Speaker 2: it's really because we're talking about pinning up these talkative,
Speaker 2: highly outgoing people and these isolated environments for years on end.
Speaker 2: So I mean, not only would these extroverted team members
Speaker 2: everybody else crazy on board, but they'd also have to
Speaker 2: contend with living in an environment that really gives them
Speaker 2: very little room for new activities or social interactions, so
Speaker 2: you could see how it could be pretty tough for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, my daughter is a total extrovert too,
Speaker 1: And before we put her in preschool, when she was
Speaker 1: just at home, we thought she was like a husky
Speaker 1: without work. She was just going around being destructed, couldn't
Speaker 1: figure out what to do with herself. And then you
Speaker 1: put her in school and she's interacting with kids, and
Speaker 1: suddenly she's just totally happy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you were definitely surrounded by extroverts in your life,
Speaker 2: but you know, you think about the goal is to
Speaker 2: find the right balance here and that sweet spot where
Speaker 2: introverts and extroverts kind of even each other out to
Speaker 2: create this compatible and functioning team.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that feels like what we should be striving for
Speaker 1: in general. But you know, at the risk of going
Speaker 1: full cornball here, I did want to share some advice
Speaker 1: that Susan Kane put together for the introverts out there.
Speaker 1: It's called the Quiet Revolution Manifesto, and she has ten
Speaker 1: tips for everyone who is introverted, and I thought i'd
Speaker 1: just share it here. Great, So this is how it goes. One.
Speaker 1: There's a word for people who are in their heads
Speaker 1: too much thinkers. Two. Solitude is a catalyst for innovation. Three.
Speaker 1: The next generation of quiet kids can and must be
Speaker 1: raised to know their own strengths. Four. Sometimes it helps
Speaker 1: to be a pretend extrovert. There's always time to be
Speaker 1: quiet later. Five, But in the long run, staying true
Speaker 1: to your temperament is the key to finding work you
Speaker 1: love and work that matters. Six. One genuine relationship is
Speaker 1: worth a fistful of business cards. So I'm just going
Speaker 1: to possible a second. This is actually something that made
Speaker 1: me think differently about networking events, which, yeah, I always
Speaker 1: feel like I have to go to for work and
Speaker 1: make contacts and stuff and I'm terrible at them. But
Speaker 1: it is true, like if you sit in the corner
Speaker 1: but you make one good relationship at these things, it
Speaker 1: does feel like a the event has been worthwhile. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that sort of eased my my thinking about this.
Speaker 1: But back to the list. Seven, it's okay to cross
Speaker 1: the street to avoid making small talk. Eight. Quiet leadership
Speaker 1: is not an oxymoron. Nine love is essential, gariousness is optional,
Speaker 1: and ten in a gentle way, you can shake the world.
Speaker 1: And that's a quote from mahakma gandhi.
Speaker 2: You know what this is inspiring me? I feel like
Speaker 2: the introverts of the world should unite in this case.
Speaker 2: I mean, of course separately in their own houses, but.
Speaker 1: Still exactly and with that sort of amazing call to
Speaker 1: action that you've just given. What do you say we
Speaker 1: step out of our own shells and go head to
Speaker 1: head in a fact off?
Speaker 2: Sounds good? All right? So here's a quick one. Did
Speaker 2: you know that guzzling coffee before a meeting might backfire
Speaker 2: on introverts looking for a little bit of a brain
Speaker 2: boost is according to psychologist Brian little Quote, after ingesting
Speaker 2: about two cups of coffee, extroverts carry out task more efficiently,
Speaker 2: whereas introverts perform less. Well, this deficit is magnified if
Speaker 2: the task they are engaging in is quantitative and if
Speaker 2: it is done under time pressure.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I've got to cut back my caffeine intake.
Speaker 1: So here's a funny one, also related to coffee. There's
Speaker 1: a new machine in Singapore that's basically an office coffee
Speaker 1: machine that withholds the coffee until two people have a
Speaker 1: conversation in front of it. Oh no, it's being billed
Speaker 1: as the linked in of coffee machines, and the whole
Speaker 1: idea is to facilitate more human interactions, especially in spaces
Speaker 1: where everyone's communicating on slack. But for those of us
Speaker 1: who are on the quieter end of the spectrum and
Speaker 1: really just want our cup of coffee in the morning.
Speaker 1: It's got a nickname. It's called the introvert torture device. Wow,
Speaker 1: that sounds about right. It's pretty rough, all right.
Speaker 2: So there's been more than a few introverted presidents in
Speaker 2: American history. We of course think of link And being one,
Speaker 2: and Obama was one, but I think Calvin Coolidge might
Speaker 2: be the most famous of them. So there's all these
Speaker 2: stories of people visiting the White House and when they talked,
Speaker 2: he would just stare at them. In fact, during one interview,
Speaker 2: Coolidge said his strategy was basically to let people monologue
Speaker 2: their way out of his office. As he put it,
Speaker 2: many times I say yes or no to people, but
Speaker 2: even that is too much. It winds them up for
Speaker 2: twenty minutes more.
Speaker 1: I love that. You know, this is one great story
Speaker 1: about Coolidge I have to share. So we've talked about
Speaker 1: him and his weird practical jokes, in the past, like
Speaker 1: how he'd hit the buzzer to call the Secret Service
Speaker 1: into his office and then he'd hide under the desk, which, honestly,
Speaker 1: it just makes him sound like an idiot. But I
Speaker 1: read he'd also often poured cream into his saucer instead
Speaker 1: of his teacup, and then all these people sitting around
Speaker 1: him at a meeting or whatever would be confused. So
Speaker 1: after a while they'd do the same, Like they thought,
Speaker 1: this is how the president likes to drink his cream
Speaker 1: or whatever, and they didn't want to make him feel bad.
Speaker 1: They thought maybe he was sophisticated, so like they did
Speaker 1: the same thing, and after they'd all poured their cream
Speaker 1: into their saucers, he just quietly placed the saucer on
Speaker 1: the floor for his dogs to laugh at us. Pretty yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I think it's so terrific. But here's my fact.
Speaker 1: So apparently we all get more introverted as we get older,
Speaker 1: and you know, I guess this feels true, like we're
Speaker 1: less interested in needing approval, we're less interested in making
Speaker 1: friends and all that stuff. But apparently this is all
Speaker 1: an evolutionary mechanism, so there's more need to make bonds
Speaker 1: when you're younger than when you're older. But what's funny,
Speaker 1: and Susan Kane points us out, is that relative levels
Speaker 1: of introversion tend to stay the same. So she says, like,
Speaker 1: if you go back to your high school reunion, for instance,
Speaker 1: and you went and you ranked everyone in your class
Speaker 1: into their levels of extraversion, they'd all have the same rank.
Speaker 1: But it's just that everyone would have shifted together along
Speaker 1: this spectrum.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty interesting, but I mean, I guess it
Speaker 2: also makes sense. Okay, Well, one of our favorite kids
Speaker 2: authors of all time, Theodore Geisel aka Doctor Seuss, did
Speaker 2: you know that he was a total introvert.
Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting. I actually wouldn't have figured that because
Speaker 1: you read about him in college and he was always
Speaker 1: at keg parties and things. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, at least in terms of how he liked to work.
Speaker 2: I mean, he loved working in a quiet studio. And
Speaker 2: in fact, you know, once he became pretty famous, he
Speaker 2: rarely went out in public because he was worried that
Speaker 2: kids would want him to be kind of like the
Speaker 2: cat in the hat, like this big, over the top,
Speaker 2: gregarious figure, and so he actually stayed in because he
Speaker 2: was quote worried his fans would be disappointed by his
Speaker 2: reserve personality.
Speaker 1: Oh that's that's almost sad. But I do like that
Speaker 1: a person who's definitely had this outsized influence on society
Speaker 1: and kids and just making people happy in general, is
Speaker 1: actually this poster boy for introversion. So I think we
Speaker 1: should quietly quietly tip our hats to doctor Seuss and
Speaker 1: you can keep today's trophy.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, thanks so much. This has been a
Speaker 2: really fun one. I know we've got lots of introverts
Speaker 2: and extroverts out there who've been listening today, and we'd
Speaker 2: love to hear some facts from you that we may
Speaker 2: have forgotten for today's episode. You can always send those
Speaker 2: two part Time Genius at HowStuffWorks dot com or hit
Speaker 2: us up on Facebook or Twitter. But as always, thanks
Speaker 2: so much for listening. Thanks again for listening. Part Time
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Speaker 1: Adams and Eves. Jeff Cook gets the show to your ears.
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