1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Guess what will? 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 2: What's that mango? 3 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: So you know how there are names of groups of animals, 4 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: like I think a group of crows is a murder 5 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: of crows, or if you have a group of rhinoceros, 6 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: it's called a crash, not a squad, which you know, 7 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: I guess Taylor Swift or my son would call them. 8 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: It's a crash. 9 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 2: Just one more similarity between Taylor Swift and your son. 10 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 2: You forgot a couple of my favorites though. I've always 11 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: loved smack of jellyfish, and then of course a business 12 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 2: of ferrets, which I don't know why, but that's my favorite. 13 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: I think it is pretty great. So I found this 14 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: video online called how to Care for Your Introvert, which 15 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: claims that a pair of introverts is actually called an 16 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: awkward and a group of introverts is what you call 17 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: an angst. 18 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: Is this real? 19 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: Of course not, but the whole video is joking and fun, 20 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: and it points out that introverts are rarely found together 21 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: in the wild. So these are mostly theoretical terms anyway. 22 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: But as you know, I'm definitely an introvert, and when 23 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: I was in high school I almost used to bristle 24 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: at this phrase like all great figures and history or 25 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: seen as charismatic and big characters. And I figured, you know, 26 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: I could be fun at a party, I have friends, 27 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: I do things, so I figured there was no way 28 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: I should be lumped in with the introverts. But then 29 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: in college I quickly realized I am such an introvert, 30 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: especially when I compare myself to my wife, who just 31 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: crams in so many things into her social calendar. Yeah, 32 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense to me. But you know, 33 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: this whole thing has made me wonder what does being 34 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: an introvert really mean? Like do you have to be 35 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: strictly an introvert or an extrovert? Or is there a spectrum? 36 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: Do our brains actually behave differently? And is it okay 37 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: for me to hit the closed door button on an 38 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: elevator when someone's trying to catch a ride with me, 39 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: Because I would really love a scientific excuse to say 40 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: that's all right. 41 00:01:41,800 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's dive in. 42 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 2: Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 43 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: Will Pearson, and as always I'm joined by my good 44 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: friend mangesh Hot Ticketerter and on the other side of 45 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: the soundproof glass sporting yet another one of his classic 46 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: t shirts. This one just says Introvert Social Club. Why 47 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: go big when you can go home? This is one 48 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 2: of my favorites of his. But that's our friend and 49 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: producer Tristan McNeil, and I've got to say, for an 50 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: introverted guy, he definitely speaks volumes with his shirts. Mang, 51 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: wouldn't you agree? 52 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: Definitely? 53 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 2: Well, you know, one thing I realized while doing the 54 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: research for today's show is that introverts can be pretty 55 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 2: tough to pin down in terms of personality. And you know, 56 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: most of us hear the term, we immediately think of 57 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: traits like sensitivity or introspection or maybe quietness. I mean, 58 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: but the truth is, none of those things are guaranteed 59 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: signs of introversion. And that's because introversion is definitely a 60 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 2: spectrum rather than being this one set way of being. 61 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 2: So with that distinction in mind, I thought we could 62 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: use this episode as a way to kind of set 63 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: the record straight on what's probably one of the more 64 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 2: misunderstood aspects of human personality. So we're going to look 65 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 2: at the science behind introversion as well as how our 66 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: society tends to view introverted people and we'll also run 67 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 2: through some of the pros and cons to really see 68 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: how introverts stack up against their more outgoing counterparts. 69 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: And to kick things off, I thought we could talk 70 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: a little bit about what introversion is and also what 71 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: it isn't. So to start from the beginning, the terms 72 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: introvert and extrovert were first coined by Carl Jung way 73 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: back in nineteen twenty one. He used them mainly as 74 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: a way to distinguish between two prevalent types of personality, 75 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: those who feel more connected to their inward thoughts and 76 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: feelings and those who focus primarily on the external world. 77 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: And really, that was it, like, There was no stigma, 78 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: no rank attached to one or another. You know. It 79 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: wasn't like my wife who tells me you introverts think 80 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: you're so special, right, These were just two different, equally 81 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: valid ways of experiencing and the world. Yeah, And in 82 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: the years since then, other researchers have expanded on Jung's ideas. 83 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: Of course, there's no catch all definition for the term, 84 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: but there are at least a few things we can 85 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: say about introverts in general. For example, introverts tend to 86 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 1: be good listeners who think before they speak, they enjoy 87 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: time alone. They usually need less stimulation than extroverts when 88 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: it comes to entertainment, and while they typically tire of 89 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: small talk quickly, they can talk your ear off when 90 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: they're given the chance to dig into a topic they 91 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: really care about, you know. And I think this was 92 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: something that I've really thought about in the past week 93 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: or so as we've been working on this topic. And 94 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: that's the fact that no one is really one hundred 95 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: percent introverted or one hundred percent extroverted, other than my 96 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: ninety one year old mamma. I think she's pretty close 97 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: to one hundred percent extrovert. Such an extrovert, she's. 98 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 2: Definitely an extrovert. But but we're all really more of 99 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 2: a mix of both personality types. And I've actually realized 100 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 2: that about the two of us. If people were looking 101 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: at the two of us, most people would say, you're 102 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: an introvert and I'm an extrovert. But really, as we've 103 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 2: been doing the research, you kind of realize there is 104 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: this very real mix. It's just that most of us 105 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 2: lean harder one way than the. 106 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: Other, definitely, and that's why you'll find like a quiet 107 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: classmate or a coworker can actually be a really engaging 108 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: public speaker, and that's because of this big cultural and 109 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: misconception that all introverts are incredibly shy people who can 110 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: never get up in front of an audience without cracking 111 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: under the pressure. But in reality, introversion is a completely 112 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: different thing than shyness. So I'm not sure if you 113 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: remember that groundbreaking book on introverts. It was written by 114 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: Susan Kine. It's called Quiet. It came out about Yeah, 115 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: it came out about five or six years ago, and 116 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: it's full of really insightful takes on introversion. And one 117 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: of the things Susan covers is that shyness and being 118 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: an introvert are driven by completely different forces. So listen 119 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: to how she explains it. Quote, Shyness is the fear 120 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: of social disapproval or humiliation, while introversion is a preference 121 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: for environments that are not over stimulating. Shyness is inherently painful, 122 00:05:59,120 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 1: introversion is not. 123 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's such an interesting quote from that, 124 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 2: because those are definitely two words that I think people 125 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 2: have just assumed kind of meant the same thing. But 126 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 2: so think a little bit more about it. So shyness 127 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 2: is more of a reaction than a way of being, 128 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 2: And so as a result, you could even have an 129 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 2: extrovert who might really enjoy being around crowds but actually 130 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: is deathly afraid of being in the spotlight themselves. 131 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and in the same way, it's possible to have 132 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: an introvert who's also shy. Since shyness is a learned behavior, 133 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: an introvert could develop a fear of social situations because 134 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: they've been made to feel like they don't measure up 135 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: to extroverts. So it could actually be this I guess, 136 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: the self fulfilling prophecy. 137 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 2: M hmm. Well, and there's that same kind of misconception 138 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 2: about social anxiety. I mean, a lot of people would 139 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: assume that that condition goes hand in hand with introversion, 140 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 2: but it doesn't necessarily. I mean, social anxiety is similar 141 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 2: to shyness, and that it's largely learned behavior, but anxiety 142 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 2: also tends to run in family is without question a 143 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 2: very real genetic link there as well. It's just, you know, 144 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: a more extreme form of self consciousness than either shyness 145 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: or introversion. And just trying to think of an example 146 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 2: of this, I mean, somebody with social anxiety might feel 147 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 2: totally incapable in a social situation. You know, maybe they 148 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: tell themselves they don't have anything to contribute, or that 149 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: people will ignore or misunderstand them, so why bother even 150 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,679 Speaker 2: saying anything. But I mean, that's generally not the case 151 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: with introverts. In fact, many of them are pretty adept 152 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: at kind of you know, you might say, turning on 153 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 2: their social skills when they need to. 154 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: All right, well, now that we know some of the 155 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: things that introversion is not, we should talk about what 156 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: it actually is. And like you allude to at the 157 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: top of the show, that's kind of easier said than done, 158 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: because most popular definitions fail to capture the range of 159 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: ways that introversion manifests in people like we tend to 160 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: view introversion as opposite to extroversion. So if an extroverts outspoken, 161 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: then an introvert is tight liped. This is kind of 162 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: a dumbing down of distinctions, and it's really nothing new. 163 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: But thankfully there's been a lot more research on the subject, 164 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: and that includes the work of a psychology professor at 165 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: Wellesley College named Jonathan Cheek. So a few years back, 166 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: he surveyed a group of five hundred adults, and he 167 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: asked them everything from how often they daydream, how important 168 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: they consider solitude for their well being, all sorts of 169 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: questions like this, and then Cheek used their responses to 170 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: help develop what he called the star chart. But you 171 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: know you don't have to worry about this, well, I 172 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: know you've got a version of astrology. This has nothing 173 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: to do with where mercury is rising and star. It's 174 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: actually a breakdown of what Cheek considers the four types 175 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: of introversion. So it's social thinking, anxious, and restraint. 176 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: Even better, so we've got an acronym, and you know 177 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: I love a good acronym, So I now I feel 178 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: like you deserve the chance to kind of give us 179 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: a rundown of what falls in each of those those 180 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 2: four categories. 181 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: Sure, so the S is social introversion, and this is 182 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: probably what a lot of people would think of when 183 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: they're asked to describe introverts, right, Like, it's basically a 184 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: preference for small groups over large ones, for more solitary activities, 185 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: you know, think about things like reading a book or 186 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: watching a movie. Thinking introversion, which is the tea that's 187 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: a little different Introverts with this type don't mind like 188 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: big social events or these highly stimulating environments, and that's 189 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: mainly because they're really connected to their interior world. 190 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: You know. 191 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: All that commotion around them is really drowned out by 192 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: all the introspection that they go through in self reflection 193 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: that occupies their minds. 194 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so these are people. I mean, it kind of 195 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: makes me think of the phrase where we talk about 196 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 2: people being in their own little world. 197 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, exactly. And the example I read try 198 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: to lay it out in Harry Potter terms, which is 199 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: of course very much appreciated. And in that case, the 200 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: socially awkward level would be a social introvert, while a 201 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: thinking introvert would be someone more like Luna Lovegood, you know, 202 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: who's sort of dreamily creative. 203 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 2: Right, that makes sense. I feel like everything makes more 204 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 2: sense when you can explain it in Harry Potter terms. 205 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: So definitely we'll try to do that with all future episodes. 206 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 2: But all right, so that's the S and the T. 207 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: So how about the A and the R. 208 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: Right, So next up is anxious introversion. As you might 209 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: guess from the name, this refers to introverts who have 210 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: also some form of social anxiety, and it's characterized by 211 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: a tendency to kind of overthink things and also to 212 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: dwell on your mistakes or perceived mistakes for well after 213 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: the fact. I mean, it really is, it can be crippling. 214 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: And lastly, there's the R and star, which refers to 215 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: restrained or reserved, and these are people who take a 216 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: little while to get going. So instead of diving straight 217 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: into a conversation, a restrained introvert might you know, hear 218 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: what everyone has to say, really take their time to 219 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: absorb and think on it and then offer their own thoughts. 220 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: So pretty much they're the think first, act later people 221 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: in the world. 222 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense, And I feel like this four 223 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: way system definitely covers more ground than just the one 224 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 2: blanket term. But I have to also think that, you know, 225 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: there's an awful lot of overlap between the different types, 226 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,119 Speaker 2: Like I can imagine somebody being a part thinking introvert 227 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: and part restrained introvert or some other combination of. 228 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: These four definitely, and when she came up with this model, 229 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: he really wanted to expand the definition of introvert, not 230 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: just replace it with these four strict types. So according 231 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: to him, plenty of introverts. There are actually a mix 232 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: of all four types. 233 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 2: All right, well, I'd say we have a pretty good 234 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: grasp on what goes into being an introvert. So why 235 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: don't we switch gears a little bit and talk about 236 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: the science of introversion. Because it isn't by chance that 237 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 2: introverts and extroverts think differently. I mean their brains are 238 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 2: actually different. For example, if you look at brain scans 239 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: of the two different types of brains, you'd see a 240 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: thicker prefrontal cortex in introverts when you compare them to extroverts. 241 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: And since that part of the brain is connected with 242 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: things like deep thought and planning, that bigger cortex might 243 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 2: actually explain why introverts tend to be less impulsive than extroverts. Now, 244 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: instead of processing new information directly, these introverts first run 245 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 2: it through the neural pathway that deals with planning and 246 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 2: long term MIMI. And so this is why introverts might 247 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 2: actually take longer to make a decision or former response, 248 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: because they're comparing old and new experiences and even weighing 249 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 2: the potential outcomes while they moul things over, and so 250 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 2: this can slow the thinking process down a pretty good 251 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 2: bit actually, But it also results in these carefully thought 252 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: out responses and choices, and that's not something that you 253 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 2: always get with extroverts. 254 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: Which is interesting. You know, I hadn't heard about that 255 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: bigger cortex this thing, but now I feel like I'm 256 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: going to brag to everyone about how large my cortex 257 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: probably is. 258 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 2: I knew that that was coming. I know you're gonna 259 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 2: be bragging about this NonStop. 260 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: So Actually, the differences between introverted and extroverted brains that 261 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: I've always heard about is the way we respond to dopamine. Yeah, 262 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: and you know we've talked about this before. Dopamine is 263 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: one of the neurotransmitters that's closely tied to our sensation 264 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: of pleasure, especially when it comes to seeking rewards or 265 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: taking risks, and dopamine has similar effects on introverts and 266 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: extroverts alike. When it hits your brain, you feel more alert, 267 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: you might be more talkative, more motivated to take chances, 268 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: and in fact, introverts and extroverts even have the same 269 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: amount of dopamine in their bodies. The difference is that 270 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: dopamine triggers the reward network much more strongly in the 271 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: brains of extroverts. So take something like earning a promotion 272 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: at work that would likely generate excitement in both kinds 273 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: of people, right, but the extrovert would feel that excitement 274 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: to a much greater degree than the introvert, which I. 275 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: Don't know, when you think about it, feels like kind 276 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: of a raw deal for the introverse. If it feels 277 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 2: like they're getting jipped on the whole dopamine thing, I guess. 278 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: Well, don't feel too bad just yet, because there's actually 279 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: another transmitter, as a newer transmitter called acetylchline, and it's 280 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: also associated with pleasure, but this one is the go 281 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: to choice for introverts looking to unwind, and unlike dopamine, 282 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: acetyl coline generates these happy feelings for more inward focused activities, 283 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: so like thinking deeply about something or concentrating on one 284 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: thing for an extended period. And the chemical is tied 285 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: to the parasympathetic side of the nervous system, which is 286 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: nicknamed the throttle down or the rest and digest side. 287 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: So if Netflix and Chill is actually your past time 288 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: a choice, you can thank a seedtle colin for that. 289 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: All right, Well, since we're getting into the comparisons between 290 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 2: introverts and extroverts. I feel like we should go through 291 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: our list of pros and cons and see how the 292 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 2: two ways of being kind of stack up against one another. 293 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds fun to me. But first, let's take 294 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: a quick break. 295 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: If you're listening to part Time Genius and we're talking 296 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 2: about the not so subtle differences between introverts and extroverts, 297 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: All right, mego. So the first introvert advantage that I 298 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 2: want to talk about is their nack for being able 299 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 2: to read people. Because when it comes to judging how 300 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: another person will think, or feel or act, we show 301 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 2: that introverts make better inferences than you know, extroverts, and 302 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: that's almost every single time. And we do know this 303 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 2: thanks to a study from a team of psychologists at Yale, 304 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 2: because they were asking more than one thousand participants about 305 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: how the average person would react in different social situations. So, 306 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 2: for example, this one comes straight from the test, and 307 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: here's the question. It's quote, people are usually overly confident 308 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 2: in the accuracy of their judgments true or false. 309 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I have to say true on that, but 310 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: I also feel like I might be being overconfident in you. 311 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 2: Of course, but actually you got the correct answer on 312 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: this one. But anyway, after the survey, the researchers rounded 313 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 2: up the highest scoring participants and then they ran a 314 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 2: series of psychological tests, and they did this to determine 315 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: which personality traits these people had in common. Now, it's 316 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: not surprising that the respondents who made the most accurate 317 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 2: judgments were more likely to be intelligent and interested in 318 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 2: problem solving than those who scored poorly. But the more 319 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 2: surprising finding was that these same people were also more introverted. 320 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 2: And as one of the studies authors explains, quote, it 321 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 2: could be that the introverted people are spending more time 322 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 2: observing human nature than those who are busy interacting with others, 323 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: or they are more accurate in introspection because they have 324 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: fewer motivational biases. They don't view the world through rose 325 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: colored glasses as jovial and extroverted people do. 326 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: Well, I mean that does track with what we were 327 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: saying about introverts and how they have a tendency to 328 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: think carefully and be more observant of their surroundings. 329 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: That's true, but I don't want to get accused of 330 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: serious bias here, so I should point out that there 331 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 2: was a drawback to the introverts perception powers in this 332 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 2: same study, because along with that intelligence and curiosity, those 333 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 2: highest scoring participants also reported being more lonely and maybe 334 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 2: having lower self esteem than their more extroverted counterparts. So 335 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: it's not really an across the board win for either 336 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 2: one of these groups. 337 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and those kind of trade offs kind of pop 338 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: up a lot when you compare introverts and extroverts, And 339 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that 340 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: both types of people would excel and also lag in 341 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: different ways. You know, if one way of being was 342 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 1: decidedly better than the other, it feels like we still 343 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't have both types of people in the world. And 344 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: if you think about how these different traits might have 345 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: emerged in the first place, it's easy to see their 346 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: respective evolutionary advantages. Like if you took like prehistoric introverts, 347 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: they likely would have stuck close to the cave and 348 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: avoided predators, which would have increased their chances of not 349 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: being eaten. And on the other hand, like the extroverted 350 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: cavemen would have wandered far and wide and they would 351 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: have had the instincts to look for new types of 352 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: food and shelter and all of that when shelter was 353 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: in short supply. 354 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: And that's a good point. I'd not really thought about 355 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 2: that way. But I mean, what would you make of 356 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,959 Speaker 2: the idea that introverts tend to be more melancholic? I mean, 357 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 2: I know, I've heard before that extroverts are happier people 358 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 2: overall when they're measured against introverts, and that study, for 359 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: Meal does seem to lend some credence to that theory. 360 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 2: So I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. 361 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I've actually seen those studies before too, and 362 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: they're usually center on that dopamine reaction that we talked 363 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: about earlier. And the truth is, happiness levels are pretty 364 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: evenly matched between introverts and extroverts when it comes I 365 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: guess to like inwardly focused activities, you know, watching TV, 366 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: listening to music, reading a book. But the real disparity 367 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: arises when you look at happiness levels during social activities 368 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: and the ones where some kind of reward is at stake, 369 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 1: and in those cases, extroverts really have the advantage. But 370 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: you know, according to Susan Kine, this is more about 371 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: how we define happiness than it is about who's objectively happier. 372 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: For example, in Western culture is like our own, we 373 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: have a habit of viewing happiness as an active state. 374 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: It's sort of this explosive enthusiasm and excitement and giddiness. 375 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: And you know that's not the case for Eastern cultures, 376 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: where happiness is seen as something more passive of its 377 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: contentment and peacefulness and almost this feeling of being present 378 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: and focused in the moment. So Kin actually has a 379 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: quote on this. She says, when introverts talk about the 380 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: things that they most love to do, it's very often 381 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: activities like reading, hiking, cycling, being with their spouses, being 382 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: with their children. It's a quieter type of contentment that 383 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: often fuels introverts and that we don't pay proper attention to. 384 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: But speaking of proper attention, you know that might be 385 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: another reason that extroverts report such higher levels of happiness, 386 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: because they're less introspective, and because of that, they also 387 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: tend to overlook drawbacks and great experiences on a curve. So, 388 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: for example, an extrovert might say that they had a 389 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: great time at a party and not even mention things 390 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: like there wasn't enough food to go around, or that 391 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: the sound system kept going out. But I guess I 392 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: feel like you're. 393 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 2: Using specific examples from things. 394 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 1: These are things that happened at a party a one too. 395 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, an introvert would likely notice all 396 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: these little details and you know, have a better sy 397 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: of how it impacted everyone's overall experience. But you know, 398 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: in the end, it could be that the introverts are 399 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: more inclined to give this less rosy and potentially more 400 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: accurate assessment of how happy they really are. 401 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's probably true, But I mean, 402 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 2: back to what we were saying about those trade offs, 403 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: and to be fair, there are costs to being an 404 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 2: extrovert as well. I mean, we mentioned that extroverts have 405 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 2: this pensiont for risk taking, and so as you might expect, 406 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 2: that tendency can backfire in some pretty damaging ways. I mean, 407 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 2: as an example, extroverts are more likely to be hospitalized 408 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: for an accident or for an illness than introverts are, 409 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 2: and they're more likely to develop criminal behaviors. They're more 410 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 2: likely to get arrested too. 411 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: Like all of these things are true, that can't be true. 412 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: I mean, they're more likely to be arrested. 413 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is why I'm trying to claim that I'm 414 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: not as much of an extrovert as I once thought 415 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: that I was. I mean, but I guess it makes 416 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 2: sense if you're impulsive instead of a planner. But this 417 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: does come from the journal Comprehensive Psychiatry, and this was 418 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: from recent search conducted at Johns Hopkins and at the 419 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 2: Bloomberg School of Public Health. So Mango, that sounds about 420 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 2: as legit as it gets. 421 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so bizarre, but you know what, we've been 422 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: focusing on differences. I do want to make sure that 423 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: we mentioned some of the similarities between introverts and extroverts, 424 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: and this is a pretty unexpected one. So you know 425 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: how introverts need time alone to kind of recharge their 426 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: batteries after a social outing. Yeah, I feel like this 427 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: is always the definition I've always used for introversion. And 428 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: obviously these people can turn on their extroverted behavior for 429 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: a while, but they eventually start to feel drained and 430 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: just want to go home and relax. But it turns 431 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: out that too much socializing can actually be exhausting for everyone, 432 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: even extroverts. So a couple of years ago. This finished 433 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: research team found that the more people were acting extroverted, 434 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,239 Speaker 1: the more they reported being in a positive mood and 435 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: feeling unfatigued in the moment. However, after three hours of socializing, 436 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: people report these higher levels of fatigue, and this was 437 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: true for both introverts and extroverts. 438 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, but three hours of intent socializing. That 439 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: just sounds exhausting. Like, I don't know who wouldn't be 440 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 2: tired by that? But Clinton, I think you're probably right. 441 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 2: But I mean, it is interesting that acting introverted netted 442 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 2: the same positive mood boost for both the introverts and 443 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: the extroverts, at least, you know, for a little while. 444 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 2: And I guess it goes to show that humans really 445 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,719 Speaker 2: are social animals, just to differing degrees, I guess. 446 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's probably a safe bet. But before 447 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 1: we move on, I want to point out that not 448 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: all people lean towards extroversion or introversion. There's actually a 449 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: third kind of person called an ambivert, and these are 450 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: the people who follow right smack in the middle of 451 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: the spectrum, and it's actually way more common than I 452 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: would have expected. I thought these were like unicorns, but 453 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: In fact, according to one study, ambiverts make up about 454 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: thirty eight percent of the population at any given time. 455 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 2: It's kind of a weird word, though, don't you think 456 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: like you called an ambivert? 457 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: But uh, it's really an insult. 458 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 2: I mean, I am curious that, like, where do ambiverts 459 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 2: land in terms of the kinds of advantages that we've 460 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: been talking about. 461 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: So the thing is that fewer studies have been commissioned 462 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: on amiverts is partially because scientists love studying the extremes. 463 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,239 Speaker 1: But there was a management expert named Adam Grant who 464 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: conducted a study back in twenty thirteen. He surveyed three 465 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: hundred and forty call center employees and found that two 466 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: thirds of them considered themselves neither introverted nor extroverted. And 467 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: while you might think the extroverts would have this clear 468 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: advantage when it came to talking on the phone for 469 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: a living, Grant actually found that it was the ambiverts 470 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: who closed most of the sales. 471 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 2: And do we know why? 472 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: That is not entirely but Grant's theories that ambiverts are 473 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: just better suited for both aspects of a sales call. 474 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: You know, they could do the talking, they could also 475 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: do the listening, and as he explained, ambiverts are quote 476 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: likely to express the servedness and enthusiasm to persuade and 477 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: close the sale, but are more inclined to listen and 478 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: also are less vulnerable to appearing too excited or overconfident. 479 00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 2: And I guess it makes a lot of sense when 480 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: you think about it. But I'm glad you've broached this 481 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 2: subject of job proficiency though, because one thing that I 482 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: was looking into this week is how introverts are faring 483 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 2: intoday's job market. I mean, it's not surprising that they've 484 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 2: had a rough go of things in the past, both 485 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: in terms of business and in society as a whole. 486 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 2: But I was really trying to get a sense of 487 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,479 Speaker 2: whether things have gotten any easier for introverts in the 488 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 2: information age. 489 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you think about that Moneyball example, where 490 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: people who ran funny or didn't look handsome enough were 491 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: considered less exciting prospects and then less valued, and you 492 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: can see how that might apply similarly to quiet employees. 493 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: But let's take another quick break and then dive back in. Okay, Well, 494 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: so I know you wanted to talk about how society 495 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: views introverts, and I think I have the perfect Susan 496 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: Kane quote to set the stage. You know, at the 497 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: beginning of her book Quiet, she writes, quote, today we 498 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: make room for a remarkably narrow range of personality styles. 499 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: We're told that to be great is to be bold, 500 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: to be happy is to be sociable. We see ourselves 501 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: as a nation of extroverts, which means that we have 502 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: lost sight of who we really are. Depending on which 503 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: study you consult, one third to one half of Americans 504 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: or introverts. In other words, one out of every two 505 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: or three people. You know, if you are not an 506 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: introvert yourself, you're surely raising, managing, married to, or coupled 507 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: with one. 508 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's got to be true. And it's 509 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 2: clear that our country has a strong bias toward extroversion. 510 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 2: And actually this is something Kane experienced firsthand. I mean, 511 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 2: she was an attorney and a negotiator before she ever 512 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 2: decided to get into writing, and she experienced this all 513 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 2: through her career. Kane says she felt ashamed of being 514 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 2: an introvert, and not only did she come to view 515 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: her quietness and reserve as somewhat of her professional disadvantage. 516 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 2: She even considered it a behavioral defect, I mean, something 517 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 2: to correct or overcome, which is really unfortunate to think about. 518 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 2: And really it's no wonder she felt this way because 519 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 2: most schools and businesses, they're pressuring us all our lives 520 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 2: to be more extroverted and to get out of our 521 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 2: heads and complete work in groups and complete you know, 522 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 2: things as a team. So it's not surprising that people 523 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 2: would think this way. 524 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I hadn't thought about this before, but 525 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: most of our institutions are clearly set to cater to 526 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: extroverts and the kinds of stimulation they enjoy. Like if 527 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: you think about brainstorming meetings where the most upbeat person 528 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: in the office stands at a whiteboard and kind of 529 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: coaxes ideas out of everyone be there's at least forty 530 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: years of research that says individuals brainstorming on their own 531 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: come up with better ideas than groups do. But most 532 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: businesses have missed that memo. 533 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 2: You know, I feel like Mango, this is one of 534 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 2: those episodes where every time you're mentioning things, I'm like, 535 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 2: you've got somebody specific in mind. I know it, but anyway, 536 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 2: but you think about that group think mentality that it's 537 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 2: become the standard in most US schools as well. I mean, 538 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: you know, the idea that these off the cuff interactions 539 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 2: will produce these new or creative ideas, and that is 540 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 2: probably true in some cases, but that approach definitely discounts 541 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 2: the creativity that comes with being in solitude sometimes. 542 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's a shame too, because you don't 543 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: want kids to think their natural inclinations are invalid. Like 544 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: sometimes you see the parents of preschool or elementary age 545 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: students making apologies for their children's introversion, you know, like 546 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: I'm sorry he's so quiet or something like that. I've 547 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: been guilty of this in the past, and so many 548 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: of these kids grow up making the same apologies for themselves, 549 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 1: as if their innate personalities or something they should apologize for. 550 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, but you know, thanks to the work 551 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 2: of Susan Kin and of course others, we've been thinking 552 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 2: about this and our society has been showing introverts I think, 553 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 2: a lot more empathy in recent years. And you know, 554 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 2: from shirts like the one Tristan's rocking and rocking so 555 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,239 Speaker 2: well today rocking is so hard, Oh man, you think 556 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: about the countless listicals and introvert quizzes that we're all 557 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 2: bombarded with, and being an introvert in America is now 558 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 2: more accepted than any other time in history. In fact, 559 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 2: one nice side effect of the culture becoming more accepting 560 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 2: of introversion is that it opens up these new career 561 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 2: opportunities for introverts. And in fact, have you heard this 562 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 2: podcast that's called Hiding in the Bathroom. I have not, 563 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 2: so it's hosted by an introverted blogger turned podcaster named 564 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 2: maraa Aaron's Meal, and it's basically an ongoing rebuttal to 565 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 2: the idea that introversion is always a weakness and extraversion 566 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: is always a strength. 567 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: Which is so weird an introvert podcaster. I feel like, 568 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: who would have heard of such a thing? 569 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 2: I mean, that can't even be possible, can it? 570 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: I don't think so. 571 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 2: Well, it makes perfect sense that introverts might thrive in 572 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 2: a field like that. I mean, after all, podcasts walk 573 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: that line between private and public. I guess yeah. 574 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: And I mean it's the same thing we touched on 575 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: earlier about how some introverts actually make great public speakers 576 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: because they enjoyed the opportunity to dig in and really 577 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: think about these topics and death, which is you know 578 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: why everyone should actually listen to Susan Kan's Ted Talk, 579 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: because it's really really wonderful. 580 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 581 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, the Internet has also been a boon for introverts. 582 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 2: I mean, you get to actively engage with so many 583 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 2: different people, all from this relative comfort and safety of 584 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 2: your own home. What's interesting is that introverts are finding 585 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 2: new career opportunities away from their screens too. This is 586 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 2: according to Smithsonian, introverts are in high demand on Mars, 587 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 2: or at least on these NASA missions to Mars because, 588 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 2: according to a twenty fourteen report, researchers now believe that 589 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: extroverts could be a quote liability on long term space mission. 590 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: Is that just because they're afraid there'd be too many 591 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: criminals in the. 592 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 2: Midda yeah, way too many criminals now, I mean it's 593 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 2: it's really because we're talking about pinning up these talkative, 594 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 2: highly outgoing people and these isolated environments for years on end. 595 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 2: So I mean, not only would these extroverted team members 596 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 2: everybody else crazy on board, but they'd also have to 597 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 2: contend with living in an environment that really gives them 598 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 2: very little room for new activities or social interactions, so 599 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 2: you could see how it could be pretty tough for them. 600 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, my daughter is a total extrovert too, 601 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: And before we put her in preschool, when she was 602 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: just at home, we thought she was like a husky 603 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: without work. She was just going around being destructed, couldn't 604 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: figure out what to do with herself. And then you 605 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: put her in school and she's interacting with kids, and 606 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: suddenly she's just totally happy. 607 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you were definitely surrounded by extroverts in your life, 608 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 2: but you know, you think about the goal is to 609 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 2: find the right balance here and that sweet spot where 610 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 2: introverts and extroverts kind of even each other out to 611 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 2: create this compatible and functioning team. 612 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that feels like what we should be striving for 613 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: in general. But you know, at the risk of going 614 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: full cornball here, I did want to share some advice 615 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: that Susan Kane put together for the introverts out there. 616 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: It's called the Quiet Revolution Manifesto, and she has ten 617 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: tips for everyone who is introverted, and I thought i'd 618 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: just share it here. Great, So this is how it goes. One. 619 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: There's a word for people who are in their heads 620 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: too much thinkers. Two. Solitude is a catalyst for innovation. Three. 621 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: The next generation of quiet kids can and must be 622 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: raised to know their own strengths. Four. Sometimes it helps 623 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: to be a pretend extrovert. There's always time to be 624 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: quiet later. Five, But in the long run, staying true 625 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: to your temperament is the key to finding work you 626 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: love and work that matters. Six. One genuine relationship is 627 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: worth a fistful of business cards. So I'm just going 628 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: to possible a second. This is actually something that made 629 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: me think differently about networking events, which, yeah, I always 630 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: feel like I have to go to for work and 631 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: make contacts and stuff and I'm terrible at them. But 632 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: it is true, like if you sit in the corner 633 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: but you make one good relationship at these things, it 634 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: does feel like a the event has been worthwhile. Yeah, 635 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: and that sort of eased my my thinking about this. 636 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: But back to the list. Seven, it's okay to cross 637 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: the street to avoid making small talk. Eight. Quiet leadership 638 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: is not an oxymoron. Nine love is essential, gariousness is optional, 639 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: and ten in a gentle way, you can shake the world. 640 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: And that's a quote from mahakma gandhi. 641 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 2: You know what this is inspiring me? I feel like 642 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 2: the introverts of the world should unite in this case. 643 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 2: I mean, of course separately in their own houses, but. 644 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: Still exactly and with that sort of amazing call to 645 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: action that you've just given. What do you say we 646 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: step out of our own shells and go head to 647 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: head in a fact off? 648 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 2: Sounds good? All right? So here's a quick one. Did 649 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 2: you know that guzzling coffee before a meeting might backfire 650 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: on introverts looking for a little bit of a brain 651 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 2: boost is according to psychologist Brian little Quote, after ingesting 652 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 2: about two cups of coffee, extroverts carry out task more efficiently, 653 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,719 Speaker 2: whereas introverts perform less. Well, this deficit is magnified if 654 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 2: the task they are engaging in is quantitative and if 655 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: it is done under time pressure. 656 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I've got to cut back my caffeine intake. 657 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: So here's a funny one, also related to coffee. There's 658 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: a new machine in Singapore that's basically an office coffee 659 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: machine that withholds the coffee until two people have a 660 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: conversation in front of it. Oh no, it's being billed 661 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: as the linked in of coffee machines, and the whole 662 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: idea is to facilitate more human interactions, especially in spaces 663 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: where everyone's communicating on slack. But for those of us 664 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: who are on the quieter end of the spectrum and 665 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: really just want our cup of coffee in the morning. 666 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: It's got a nickname. It's called the introvert torture device. Wow, 667 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: that sounds about right. It's pretty rough, all right. 668 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: So there's been more than a few introverted presidents in 669 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: American history. We of course think of link And being one, 670 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 2: and Obama was one, but I think Calvin Coolidge might 671 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 2: be the most famous of them. So there's all these 672 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 2: stories of people visiting the White House and when they talked, 673 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 2: he would just stare at them. In fact, during one interview, 674 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 2: Coolidge said his strategy was basically to let people monologue 675 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 2: their way out of his office. As he put it, 676 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 2: many times I say yes or no to people, but 677 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 2: even that is too much. It winds them up for 678 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 2: twenty minutes more. 679 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: I love that. You know, this is one great story 680 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,879 Speaker 1: about Coolidge I have to share. So we've talked about 681 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: him and his weird practical jokes, in the past, like 682 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: how he'd hit the buzzer to call the Secret Service 683 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: into his office and then he'd hide under the desk, which, honestly, 684 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: it just makes him sound like an idiot. But I 685 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: read he'd also often poured cream into his saucer instead 686 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 1: of his teacup, and then all these people sitting around 687 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: him at a meeting or whatever would be confused. So 688 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: after a while they'd do the same, Like they thought, 689 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,760 Speaker 1: this is how the president likes to drink his cream 690 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 1: or whatever, and they didn't want to make him feel bad. 691 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: They thought maybe he was sophisticated, so like they did 692 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: the same thing, and after they'd all poured their cream 693 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: into their saucers, he just quietly placed the saucer on 694 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: the floor for his dogs to laugh at us. Pretty yeah, 695 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: I know, I think it's so terrific. But here's my fact. 696 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: So apparently we all get more introverted as we get older, 697 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: and you know, I guess this feels true, like we're 698 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,919 Speaker 1: less interested in needing approval, we're less interested in making 699 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: friends and all that stuff. But apparently this is all 700 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: an evolutionary mechanism, so there's more need to make bonds 701 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,760 Speaker 1: when you're younger than when you're older. But what's funny, 702 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: and Susan Kane points us out, is that relative levels 703 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: of introversion tend to stay the same. So she says, like, 704 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: if you go back to your high school reunion, for instance, 705 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: and you went and you ranked everyone in your class 706 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: into their levels of extraversion, they'd all have the same rank. 707 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: But it's just that everyone would have shifted together along 708 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: this spectrum. 709 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty interesting, but I mean, I guess it 710 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 2: also makes sense. Okay, Well, one of our favorite kids 711 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 2: authors of all time, Theodore Geisel aka Doctor Seuss, did 712 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 2: you know that he was a total introvert. 713 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,919 Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting. I actually wouldn't have figured that because 714 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: you read about him in college and he was always 715 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: at keg parties and things. Yeah. 716 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,399 Speaker 2: Well, at least in terms of how he liked to work. 717 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 2: I mean, he loved working in a quiet studio. And 718 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 2: in fact, you know, once he became pretty famous, he 719 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 2: rarely went out in public because he was worried that 720 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 2: kids would want him to be kind of like the 721 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 2: cat in the hat, like this big, over the top, 722 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 2: gregarious figure, and so he actually stayed in because he 723 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 2: was quote worried his fans would be disappointed by his 724 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 2: reserve personality. 725 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: Oh that's that's almost sad. But I do like that 726 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: a person who's definitely had this outsized influence on society 727 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: and kids and just making people happy in general, is 728 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: actually this poster boy for introversion. So I think we 729 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: should quietly quietly tip our hats to doctor Seuss and 730 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: you can keep today's trophy. 731 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: All right, Well, thanks so much. This has been a 732 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 2: really fun one. I know we've got lots of introverts 733 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 2: and extroverts out there who've been listening today, and we'd 734 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 2: love to hear some facts from you that we may 735 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,399 Speaker 2: have forgotten for today's episode. You can always send those 736 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 2: two part Time Genius at HowStuffWorks dot com or hit 737 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 2: us up on Facebook or Twitter. But as always, thanks 738 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:29,919 Speaker 2: so much for listening. Thanks again for listening. Part Time 739 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 2: Genius is a production of How Stuff Works and wouldn't 740 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 2: be possible without several brilliant people who do the important 741 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 2: things we couldn't even begin to understand. 742 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: Christan McNeil does the editing thing. 743 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 2: Noel Brown made the theme song and does the mixy 744 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 2: mixy sound thing. 745 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: Jerry Roland does the exact producer thing. 746 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 2: Gabeluesier is our lead researcher, with support from the Research 747 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 2: Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan Brown and Lucas. 748 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: Adams and Eves. Jeff Cook gets the show to your ears. 749 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:53,280 Speaker 1: Good job, Eves. 750 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 2: If you like what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe, 751 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 2: And if you really really like what you've heard, maybe 752 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 2: you could leave a good review for us. 753 00:37:59,280 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: Do we forget you? 754 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 2: Jason who