1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine, Hey besties. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 2: Today on the bright Side, it is Wellness Wednesday, and 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,479 Speaker 2: we're answering all the questions you're too nervous to ask 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 2: about psychedelics and their effect on the brain. What exactly 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: happens in the brain when you do psychedelics, what's microdosing, 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: and what are the benefits? And are psychedelics a viable 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: treatment for mood disorders or PTSD. Doctor Harriet DeWitt is 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 2: here to answer all these and more. She's a professor 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: of psychiatry and behavioral neuroscience at the University of Chicago, 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 2: and she's bringing more than forty years of research on 11 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: this very topic to our conversation today. It's Wednesday, September fourth. 12 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 3: I'm Simone Boyce, I'm Danielle Robe and this is the 13 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 3: bright Side from Hello Sunshine, a daily show when we 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 3: come together to share women's stories, laugh, learn and brighten 15 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 3: your day. All right, Simone, it's a new month, which 16 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 3: means it's time for a new Reason book Club Pick, 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 3: and it is the one hundredth book Club pick. It's 18 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 3: so major. I don't know about you, but I get 19 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 3: so giddy for these releases. 20 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 2: I get so giddy too, and We've actually been sitting 21 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: on this little secret for a while, the August pick, 22 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: and I've been just staring at the cover because it's 23 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 2: so gorgeous. Would you tell us more about it, Danielle? 24 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 3: Yes, Okay, this month's Reese's Book Club pick is super special. 25 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 3: It's titled The Comfort of Crows by Margaret Renkel. And 26 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 3: here's what's so special about it. Besides the fact that 27 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 3: it's a great book, the author was Reese's English teacher. 28 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: That's so incredible. I love this full circle moment. 29 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 3: I know, and I know we mentioned it's the hundredth pick, 30 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 3: but can you believe it's the hundredth pick? Like I 31 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 3: remember when Reese's Book Club chose their very first book, 32 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 3: and now we're on the hundredth. 33 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 2: Pick, and lucky ass we get to have each one 34 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: of these authors on our show. 35 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 3: Well, this book is getting high praise. Another Reese's Book 36 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 3: Club author, Ann Patchett said that this book is a 37 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 3: howling love letter to the world. 38 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: Okay, so what's your understanding of what this book is about? 39 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 3: Okay, So The Comfort of Crows is a little different 40 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 3: from most of the RBC picks. It's part memoir, part 41 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 3: nature writing, and it follows the plants and the creatures 42 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 3: and the critters in Margaret Wrenkel's backyard over the course 43 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 3: of an entire year, and in fifty two chapters, Margaret 44 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 3: documents the seasons and the changes that come with them, 45 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 3: and what's left is a portrait of both joy and grief. 46 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 3: And Margaret's brother, who's a collage artist, made an original 47 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 3: piece of art for every single chapter in the book. 48 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 3: So no doubt it's going to be an enjoyable read 49 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 3: and also a beautiful read. 50 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: This is inspiring me to get out into nature and write. 51 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: I think this would be such a great exercise in mindfulness. 52 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I can totally picture myself just curled up 53 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: with this book under a tree, perhaps in a lush, 54 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 2: verdant setting, you know, getting my photosynthesis on, listening to 55 00:02:58,800 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: the birds chirping. 56 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 3: I would have bet my entire collection of sneakers and heels, 57 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 3: which are so beloved to me, that you would have 58 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 3: used the word verdant in this description. 59 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: So does that mean that I get some sneakers? What's 60 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 2: going on here? 61 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 3: I don't think we're the same size. Maybe I can 62 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 3: give them to your kids. 63 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: That's probably probably inaccurate. Shoe size. 64 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 3: But yes, I feel like reading this book in nature 65 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 3: would be really special. 66 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 2: So nature does wonders for my mental health, and I'm 67 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: sure a lot of you feel the same. It's just 68 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: an instant stressbuster and moodlifter. And lately I've been hearing 69 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: about a lot of people turning to psychedelics for similar vibes. 70 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 4: Hmmmm. 71 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: You know it's interesting you say that. 72 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 3: I've you know, I go to like group dinners or 73 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 3: events sometimes, and I'm hearing more and more people discuss 74 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 3: plant medicine. It's becoming more popular. People are curious about it. 75 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 2: I think, Well, curiosity is one of our core values 76 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: here at the bright Side, and that's exactly what we're 77 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 2: leading with with today's episode. We're all about asking questions 78 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: and digging deeper to responsibly understand what all the hype 79 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: is about when it comes to psychedelics. 80 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 3: Okay, so you are our science girl, tell us what 81 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 3: we know. 82 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: Well, here's what we do know. 83 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: I mean, psychedelics have been used in many cultures for 84 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: thousands of years, so the way that people consume it 85 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 2: today might be new, but psychedelics themselves are not. In 86 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty eight, LSD was first synthesized by a Swiss 87 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,239 Speaker 2: chemist named Albert Hoffmann. And then in the nineteen fifties 88 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 2: we started to see this trend of prescribing LSD to 89 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 2: treat people with disorders like alcoholism. Then by the sixties, 90 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 2: it's estimated that up to forty thousand people were prescribed 91 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 2: LSD for various mental health conditions. But at that point, 92 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: that's when we started to see things turn and LSD 93 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: became popular as a recreational drug. Then in nineteen seventy, 94 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 2: the US government classified LSD as a Schedule one drug, 95 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 2: meaning it has the highest potential for abuse and apparently 96 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 2: no medicinal uses according to this government classification. So that 97 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 2: basically gets us up to now, which is why this 98 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 2: cultural shift that we're seeing around these drugs is such 99 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: a big deal. 100 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 3: It's really interesting to understand the history of it because 101 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 3: I think we're both really curious about where it's going. 102 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 3: Mike Rudo seeing psychedelics are on the rise in the US, 103 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 3: but what does the science say. 104 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: That's a big question, And here to break it all 105 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: down for us is doctor Harriet DeWitt. She's a professor 106 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 2: of psychiatry and behavioral neuroscience at the University of Chicago, 107 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 2: and doctor de Witt has actually been studying the effects 108 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 2: of drugs on the brain for decades, so I can't 109 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 2: think of anyone better to speak on this topic. And 110 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 2: she's currently researching the effects of MDMA and LSD on 111 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: mood and neural function, so let's. 112 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: Bring her in. Doctor Harriet DeWitt, Welcome to the bright Side. 113 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 4: Well, thank you, nice to be here. 114 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: Your research focuses on the physiological, mood altering, and behavioral 115 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: effects of drugs, including studies on the effects of psychedelic 116 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: type drugs like MDMA and LSD. Why did you become 117 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: so interested in this area of research. 118 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 5: I've been doing studies with psychoactive drugs more broadly for 119 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 5: many years, so I've done a lot of studies with 120 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 5: emphetamine and valuum, THHC, alcohol, caffeine, a whole range of 121 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 5: more kind of licit drugs in a sense. And then 122 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 5: it became clear that MDMA was being widely used, and 123 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 5: MDMA is very similar to emphetamine in many ways, but 124 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 5: it seems to have this kind of unique pro social effect, 125 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 5: and I thought we are in a really good position 126 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 5: to test that under experimental condition. So in the studies 127 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 5: that we do with healthy volunteers. We control people's expectancies 128 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 5: when people expect to get a certain drug, and then 129 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 5: that can influence how they respond to it. So we 130 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 5: give the drug under double blind conditions, which means that 131 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 5: neither the participant nor the person who's working with that 132 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 5: person during the session, they don't know what the is getting. 133 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 5: So that gives us a much more objective measure of 134 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 5: how the drug makes people feel and how it makes 135 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 5: them behave it leaves aside their expectancies. So usually when 136 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 5: people use MDMA or LSD, they have very strong expectations 137 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 5: that it's going to make them feel a certain way, 138 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 5: and we were able to look just at the pharmacological 139 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 5: effects holding those expectancies constant. 140 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: So you got your PhD in the eighties, right, Yes, 141 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 3: I'm so curious why this became your area of focus. 142 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,679 Speaker 3: Were you a hippie back in the day? 143 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: What about this intrigued you so much? 144 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 3: Because you're clearly like you could have gone into anything. 145 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 4: Yeah. 146 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 5: I think drugs are really challenging and really interesting aspect 147 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 5: of psychology because they combine biological factors with psychological factors. Here, 148 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 5: we are giving a drug to people and we know 149 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 5: it acts on a brain and receptors in the brain, 150 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 5: and yet it has these profound psychological effects. 151 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 4: My graduate work was actually in animal models of drug taking. 152 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 5: It turns out that if you give a rat, you 153 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 5: put a catheter into its vein and you allow it 154 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 5: to press a lever to get drug, the animals will 155 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 5: take most of the same drugs that people will take. 156 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 5: If you make amphetament available, for example, they'll press a 157 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 5: lever to get the umfetament over extended periods of time. 158 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 5: So I originally started with animal models of drug taking, 159 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 5: and then when I came to hear at the University 160 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 5: of Chicago, I switched over to study humans, and so 161 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 5: a lot of what I do is kind of bridging 162 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 5: the two. So what happens what we know from animal 163 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 5: studies and applying what the drugs. 164 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 4: Do to humans. 165 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 3: I've personally anecdotally seen real societal shift when it comes 166 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 3: to people's views on psychedelics, particularly I know we live 167 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: in la but particularly in the last five years. Even 168 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 3: I'm curious how the societal shifts have impacted the work 169 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 3: that you're doing. 170 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the use of psychedelic drugs can continued 171 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 5: at sort of an underground level for most of the 172 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 5: time that we were not able to test them in 173 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 5: under experimental conditions. And then there was a study I 174 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 5: think in two thousand and six and Johns Hopkins with 175 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 5: psilocybin that really turned things around and opened the door 176 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 5: to more mainstream scientific research. And this was it was 177 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 5: a very prestigious institution and a very prestigious researcher and 178 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 5: a very conservative researcher in any ways, so he was able, 179 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 5: this is Roland Griffiths. He was able to kind of 180 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 5: turn things around and open the door to more mainstream 181 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 5: psychiatric research. And from then on people have just been 182 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 5: taken off with it. Everybody's fascinated by these drugs and 183 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 5: what exactly do they do? Do they have potential in 184 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 5: psychiatric practice. So it's a fascinating area of an understudied 185 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 5: area of research. 186 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 2: Well, if you ever run out of subjects, you can 187 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 2: just throw a rock in Los Angeles and we can 188 00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 2: find you so many subjects. Because I truly echo what 189 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 2: Danielle was saying, I feel like I hear about it 190 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 2: all the time. You know, whether you're standing in line 191 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 2: at Arawan or you're at the beach with some friends, offens. 192 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 5: Everybody talks about their drug experiences. Absolutely, Yeah, yeah, totally. 193 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: And I'm curious how the changing perspectives around these drugs 194 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 2: impact consumers, because it seems like as the perception is shifting, 195 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: these drugs become more accessible as well. 196 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 5: That's probably true, they are more accepted. So there used 197 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 5: to be a feeling that they were dangerous in some way. 198 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 5: I think that the fact that they were not legal 199 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 5: for a long time, and well they're still not legal 200 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 5: in a lot of places, but it gave the perception 201 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 5: that they're dangerous and now there's kind of a relief 202 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 5: from that that really they're not physically that dangerous, although 203 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 5: they can be used, misused in you know, by the 204 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 5: wrong people under the wrong circumstances. So yes, I think 205 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 5: there's been a big opening up of public attitudes towards 206 00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 5: psychedelic drugs. 207 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: So please explain to us what exactly happens in the 208 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 2: brain when you do psychoactive drugs. And I'm sure the 209 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: reaction or the process is different depending on which drug 210 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 2: you take. 211 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 4: Yes, each drug is quite different. 212 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 5: So much of the work that I've done recently with 213 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 5: the sort of psychedelic type of drugs has been with MDMA, 214 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 5: and that we know. Actually what each of these drugs 215 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 5: has in common is that they act on the different 216 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 5: kind of receptors and the serotonin system. So MDMA, for example, 217 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 5: stimulates the serotonin receptors. So serotonin receptors, as everybody knows, 218 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 5: are also the target of antidepressant effects. So there's some 219 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 5: connection there that some of the possible therapeutic effects of 220 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 5: md maybe related to the fact that it acts on 221 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 5: serotonin system, which is also where the SSRI reuptate blockers 222 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 5: act regular antidepressants. The other thing about MDMA is that 223 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 5: it stimulates the release of oxytocin. So oxytocin is a 224 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 5: poor that's released in the body under circumstances to facilitate 225 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 5: pair bonding, so mother child interactions and even male female 226 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 5: courtship interactions, there's a release of oxytocin that makes people 227 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 5: feel more bonded to one another, or at least more 228 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 5: bonded to their in group, and so there's some speculation 229 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 5: that it's that ability of MDMA to release oxytocin that 230 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 5: makes people feel more connected with each other. It's still 231 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 5: an open question from research point of view whether it's 232 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 5: really the primarily the action on serotonin or the action 233 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 5: on the oxytocin that does this. So that's MDMA and 234 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 5: LSD different drug, and it acts again on a certain 235 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 5: subtype of serotonin receptor. It also acts on a number 236 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 5: of other receptors as well, like dopamine receptors as well. 237 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 5: So what's remarkable in the studies that I've done. The 238 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 5: studies I've done have been with microdosing. So we give 239 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 5: these very very small doses in the order of ten 240 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 5: to twenty micrograms, and actually the dose that you use 241 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 5: to trip is one hundred micrograms. They're tiny, tiny little doses, 242 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 5: and yet they have these profound effects, and that tells 243 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 5: us that the drug has very potent and very selective 244 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 5: actions on certain receptor subtypes. 245 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 4: So how does it act on the brain. 246 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 5: So I've told you a little bit about the receptors 247 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 5: that the drugs act on. There are other levels that 248 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 5: you can study how the drugs act on the brain. 249 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 5: There's these pictures you've probably seen of how different brain 250 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 5: areas are normally connected with each other when the people 251 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 5: are not under the influence, and then when you give 252 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 5: them a psychedelic like psilocybin, then suddenly all kinds of 253 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 5: parts that were not previously connected with each other become 254 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 5: connected with each other, so they talk about complexity or 255 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 5: sort of disorder or so you can also study how 256 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 5: the drugs act on the brain at that level. 257 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 3: I've heard you describe your research and your studies as unusual. 258 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 3: I'm thinking that's because your research really focuses on pharmacological 259 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 3: ways that drugs affect the brain in quote unquote healthy people, 260 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 3: as opposed to how they can be used as a 261 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 3: course of psychological treatment, which is what I hear about 262 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 3: more often. What is your goal? What are you looking 263 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 3: to accomplish in your studies? 264 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 5: When you study the drugs at high doses and in 265 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 5: a therapeutic context, there are so many things going on 266 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 5: that we don't know what they're contributing. The subject has 267 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 5: a relationship with a therapist, they have preparation sessions, they 268 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 5: have a guide during the session, they have integration sessions afterwards, 269 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 5: and we don't know how those experiences or those other 270 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 5: behavioral components influence the response to the drug. And my 271 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 5: question is just simpler, is what does the drug itself 272 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 5: do to kind of psychological processes? So we can ask, 273 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 5: for example, does it change your ability to detect negative 274 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 5: emotions in other people. 275 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 4: So MDMA. 276 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 5: That's one of the things that we found with MDMA. 277 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 5: The drug makes you less able to detect negative expressions 278 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 5: in other people. And so that might be useful from 279 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 5: a therapeutic point of view. That if you're talking, if 280 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 5: you're talking to a therapists, and first of all, you 281 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 5: perceived that there frowning a little bit, and the drug 282 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 5: makes you not perceive that anymore, you might be more 283 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 5: willing to interact and disclose. And similarly, if you're at 284 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 5: a rave or at a party or something, if you 285 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 5: don't see or perceive negative perceptions and other people, that 286 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 5: might make it easier for you to interact socially. So 287 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 5: my job, as I see it, is to see what 288 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 5: kind of very basic behavioral constructs are affected by the drug. 289 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 5: We also do studies where people are rejected in a 290 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 5: kind of a game, computerized game. They're first they're accepted, 291 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 5: and then they're rejected, and then we ask them how 292 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 5: rejected do you feel? And the MBMA decreases their feeling 293 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 5: of being rejected when they're excluded from this game. So 294 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 5: we've done a whole series of studies trying to look 295 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 5: at what the units of behavior are that the drugs 296 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 5: act on. 297 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 2: So from all your research, what is the best way 298 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 2: for people to reap the benefits of these drugs in 299 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 2: a responsible, safe way? 300 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: Is it microdo saying what's your First. 301 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 5: Of all, I don't think we know yet, And the 302 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 5: drugs are being tested in a lot of different settings. So, 303 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 5: for example, MDMA is being tested for post traumatic stress 304 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 5: disorder specifically for that, and it's not so much. And 305 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 5: psilocybin has been looked at for depression, and for alcohol 306 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 5: used disorder, and for end of life anxiety. So people 307 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 5: have designed studies around particular drugs and particular outcomes, and 308 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 5: we don't know how general or how specific those are 309 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 5: to particular drugs. So I think we'll have to wait 310 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 5: and see what all these studies yield. We also don't 311 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 5: know yet who might respond badly to the drugs. These 312 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 5: are powerful drugs, and in these controlled studies we very 313 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 5: carefully pre select who's going to be a participant or not. 314 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 5: Once the drug is used more broadly, then we're going 315 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 5: to get a wider range of people, and we don't 316 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 5: know who's going to be at risk for having bad 317 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 5: reactions to the drug. For example, we're I think at 318 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 5: the early stages, and I think people are studying each 319 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 5: drug individual drugs for individual what they call indications. So 320 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 5: that means like what you're targeting, and so it remains 321 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 5: to be seen how those studies work out. 322 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 2: We need to take a quick break, but we'll be 323 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 2: right back with Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Neuroscience, doctor 324 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 2: Harriet DeWitt. 325 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: And we're back with doctor Harriet DeWitt. 326 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 3: I have heard, and this is a myth or a 327 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 3: not a myth that I'd love for you to speak on, 328 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 3: but I've heard that every time you take MDMA, it 329 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 3: takes a piece of your brain, like it takes a 330 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 3: chunk out of your brain. 331 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: Is that true? 332 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 3: I wish everyone could see doctor DeWitt's faith right now. 333 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,719 Speaker 1: That's what people say, though. I think that's what they 334 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: told you in school together. 335 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 4: I think, so, I think, so what do we mean 336 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 4: by a chunk? 337 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 5: You know, if it means one neuron and there are 338 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 5: thirty billion neurons in your brain, so it's just it's 339 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 5: not a scientific statement. 340 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 3: Our producers are saying they heard that too. Okay, I'm 341 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 3: glad I'm not alone. 342 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 5: Okay, Okay, there there was some evidence or belief maybe 343 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 5: thirty years ago now that MDMA had some what they 344 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 5: call neurotoxic effects, but that has not been very well 345 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 5: replicated or established at this point. So to best of 346 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 5: our knowledge, it doesn't have a if used under controlled 347 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 5: circumstances and not too often. I think any drug, if 348 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 5: you take it at high enough doses and often enough, 349 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 5: there's going to be some damage. But at the doses 350 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 5: that we're talking about, like the trial for PTSD, they 351 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 5: give it one two or three times separated by several weeks, 352 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 5: it's I don't think it has a serious toxic effect. 353 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 3: One of the concerns for people, I think in the 354 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 3: last few years is that fentanyl is so widespread. Is 355 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 3: there a way to test the safety of these drugs 356 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 3: before ingesting them? 357 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think there are services, but you can't get 358 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 5: them at a moment's notice. You know, you could send 359 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 5: in samples and get them back in a couple of 360 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 5: weeks basically, but so and we also don't know from 361 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 5: sample to sample how stable the constituents are. So one 362 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 5: of the problems with fentanyl is that it's very potent, 363 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 5: so you only need a tiny little bit to have 364 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 5: a strong fight, just like LSD in fact in that way, 365 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 5: and it's cleared really quickly, so that once it's in 366 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 5: the system, the body clears it really quickly, so it's 367 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 5: difficult to detect. And so yeah, so's it's potent, so 368 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 5: you only need a little bit and then and then 369 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 5: you need a little bit more for it to be 370 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 5: lethal basically, So it's a very steep curve there. 371 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels like a pretty risky proposition. 372 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's one of the greatest risks of 373 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 5: using drugs non medically is that you cannot be sure 374 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 5: of the source, whether you're getting what you thought you 375 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 5: were getting, whether there are other constituents or other active 376 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 5: drugs or inactive drugs. 377 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 4: So is the risky thing. 378 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 3: One other question I'm curious about is safety or the 379 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 3: risk of taking drugs when you have underlying mental health disorders. 380 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 3: I've heard people say, for instance, people that have bipolar 381 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 3: disorder have to be incredibly careful with psychedelics. What does 382 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 3: the research say about that, You. 383 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 5: Know, it's not something that researchers go and study directly. 384 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 5: If we have some impression that bipolar patients would be 385 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 5: at risk, it's unlikely that we would get ethical approval 386 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 5: to test it. So these are things that are going 387 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 5: to emerge when the drugs are more broadly available and 388 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 5: bad things happening. So we don't know yet which psychiatric 389 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 5: disorders are really contraindicated, as I said, because we're selecting 390 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 5: very clean populations, very carefully defined populations right now. 391 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 3: I'd love to get into some of the specific experiments 392 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 3: that you've run. There's one in twenty twenty that I 393 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 3: found really interesting. One of the participants was a leader 394 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 3: in the white nationalist movement. Can you take us through 395 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 3: what you did in that study and what you found. 396 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, most of our studies are done in a group 397 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 5: of participants, so we only look at the data for 398 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 5: the whole group. This person, though, was in a study 399 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,479 Speaker 5: where we were testing maybe thirty people, and we were 400 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 5: actually testing the effects of MDMA on pleasantness of social touch. 401 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 5: So the point of the experiment is not that important. 402 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 5: But he received the drug in the lab. And when 403 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 5: they get the drug, they're in our lab here physically, 404 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 5: and they stay for four or five hours or something, 405 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 5: and then there's a research assistant goes in every once 406 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 5: in a while, measures their heart rate, blood pressure, and 407 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 5: gives them some questionnaires to fill out, and the researcher 408 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 5: went in there and the person the subject had filled 409 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 5: out on their form in capital letters, very large capital letters. 410 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 5: I know exactly what I have to do now. My 411 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 5: course is very clear, he said, look me up on 412 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 5: the internet. So the research assistant went and looked him 413 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 5: up on the internet and he was indeed the leader 414 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 5: of a white nationalist group. So then they came to 415 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 5: me and they said, well, what should we do. I 416 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 5: was really nervous. I thought that the epiphany that he 417 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 5: had was that he had to go and do something 418 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 5: with a machine gun or something like that. So, you know, 419 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 5: it really frightened me. If he's a white nationalist and 420 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 5: he says, I know what I have to do now. 421 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 5: So then we went and talked to him, and his 422 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 5: epiphany was, I see what I'm doing right now. I've 423 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 5: gone it all wrong. What's really important is luck this 424 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 5: guy he was getting drug under a circumstances. He didn't 425 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 5: know what he was getting. When we give people a 426 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 5: drug at a beginning with star at a study like that, 427 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 5: we tell him you might get a stimulant, you might 428 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 5: get a tranquilizer, you might get a placebo you might 429 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 5: get an antihistamine in this case, we said, also said 430 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 5: you might get the MDMA, But he had no idea 431 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 5: what drug he was getting, so there was no set there. 432 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 5: He wasn't though, he had no reason to expect that 433 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 5: this was going to be a love drug or anything. 434 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 5: So what he said then when I talked to him afterwards, 435 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 5: he said, it didn't really change his beliefs that much. 436 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 5: He still felt he accepted the white nationalist beliefs, but 437 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 5: he said it doesn't really matter. He said, that's not 438 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 5: what's important in my life. What's important in my life 439 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 5: is family and friends and caring for people and making 440 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 5: social connections with people. 441 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 4: So I thought it gave It was. 442 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 5: Remarkable to me that the drug would produce this strong 443 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 5: subjective experience, even though he didn't know what he was getting, 444 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 5: So it was quite remarkable. 445 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 2: So does this make you believe that perhaps MDMA and 446 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 2: other similar drugs could help us shape social chain. 447 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 5: In theory, yes, but in practice it's not anything that 448 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 5: anybody would take on doing. I mean, that becomes a 449 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 5: really a political and an ethical issue, and who's to 450 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 5: say what direction of change, whether it's going to go 451 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 5: in a good direction or a bad direction. It might 452 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 5: make them more vulnerable to believing certain kinds of things. 453 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 4: So I don't think. 454 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 5: Researchers, psychiatric researchers are going to go to anything like 455 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 5: that or make any kind of claims like that. 456 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 2: I do wonder if it could be helpful in a 457 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 2: recovery setting, like let's say somebody was electing for treatment 458 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 2: and they came in yes, seeking a perspective and behavioral shift, 459 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: and if it were administered in the controlled environment, I 460 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 2: bet that could be helpful. 461 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 462 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 5: And that's where the therapist comes in to sort of 463 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 5: direct the kind of emotional experiences and put them into 464 00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 5: a constructive kind of direction. They are MDMA and have 465 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 5: for a long time, and things like couple therapy, so 466 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 5: there's it seems to facilitate kind of difficult conversations with people. 467 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. 468 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 5: And there's even an interesting undertaking in between the Israelis 469 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 5: and the Palestinians that they put people together in kind 470 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 5: of an ayahuasca group and try and get people with 471 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 5: very kind of long standing negative feelings about the other 472 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 5: group and putting them together and having them just be 473 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 5: with the other group. 474 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 4: It's very interesting. 475 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 3: How about a study that you published called Psychedelics in Medicine, 476 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 3: Can evidence keep up with enthusiasm? What does that title mean? 477 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 5: Well, that people are going very quickly. Even though there's 478 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 5: a kind of a blossoming of the research. People are 479 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 5: have great expectations that the psychedelic drugs are going to 480 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,959 Speaker 5: solve all kinds of problems. So they have great expectations 481 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 5: that it's going to that the drugs, that psychedelic drugs 482 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 5: are going to be useful for a lot of different things. 483 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 5: But in order to make that conclusion, we have to 484 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 5: do the research, We have to do the science part 485 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 5: of it. 486 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 4: So the question is has the. 487 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,360 Speaker 5: Science kept up with the enthusiasm of what they might do. 488 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 5: So that particular article was an introduction to a special 489 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 5: issue where there were maybe six or so different papers 490 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 5: that reviewed different aspects of psychedelic drugs. 491 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 3: What do you make of the increasingly mainstream popularity of 492 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 3: the drugs? Why do you think people are more interested now? 493 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 5: I think they're becoming more socially acceptable, and there's also 494 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 5: a little bit more information about under what circumstances they're safe. 495 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 5: So I think the microdosing people perceive that as being safe, 496 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 5: and it probably is for the most part, although there 497 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 5: turns out there are some possible heart problems if you 498 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 5: use it over a long period of time. So I 499 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 5: think there's Yeah, they're being tested in mainstream psychiatry and disgusted, 500 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 5: so then that has a carryover effect. And it's in 501 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 5: every popular magazine that you come across, in New York 502 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 5: Times and New Yorker and the Economists. Everywhere you see 503 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 5: studies of the magic of what psychedelics might do. 504 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: So I know that there's a study that your lab 505 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: did that is quote among the first to report that 506 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: low dose LSD may differentially affect people with depression. So 507 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 2: if someone is interested in using psychedelics for their mental health, 508 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 2: what does that mean in practice? What is the process like, 509 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 2: how does someone even begin to explore this as a 510 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 2: treatment option? 511 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 4: You know, I don't think we're there yet. 512 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 5: The drug is still Schedule one, so it's not available 513 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 5: for medical practice, not available to physicians to prescribe. But 514 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 5: I thought it was an interesting finding because we pre 515 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 5: selected people. We had healthy volunteers with low scores on 516 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 5: a depression scale, and then volunteers who scored high on depression, 517 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 5: and that this low dose of elicti seemed to produce 518 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 5: different effects in the depressed people that reported more positive mood, 519 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 5: and they also reported more psychedelic effects, So it suggests 520 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 5: that there was something different about their brains to begin 521 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 5: with that when they come into the study, that the 522 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 5: drug has a different effect on. So I think it's 523 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 5: very promising. So the evidence so far on microdosing has 524 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 5: been very mixed. There isn't very strong evidence that microdosing 525 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 5: does much. But most of the studies have also been 526 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 5: done with completely healthy volunteers, and it's possible that the 527 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 5: microdosing has some effect in people who have some initial problem. 528 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 5: So in this case it might be depression. You could 529 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 5: also look at it in people who are depressed or 530 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 5: in people who have some other major issue going some 531 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 5: kind of problem going on in their lives. So it 532 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,199 Speaker 5: could be that the reason we haven't seen the marked 533 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,959 Speaker 5: effects in the healthy volunteers is because we haven't been 534 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 5: looking at the right people. And so this is kind 535 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 5: of a promising new direction, and we probably will go 536 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 5: on and look at this now with more depressed people 537 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 5: and see was it just by chance or can we 538 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 5: replicate it basically in another sample, So we'll do that. 539 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: You mentioned that MDMA may be close to being approved 540 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 2: as a potential PTSD treatment. Would you talk to us 541 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 2: more about the approvals process, like what lies ahead in 542 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 2: order for these drugs to become more viable options for 543 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 2: the public. 544 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, the approval process is very long and very expensive 545 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 5: and onerous. So an organization called LYCOS went to the 546 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 5: trouble and expense of doing three what they call phase 547 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,239 Speaker 5: three trials, so trials with patients with PTSD, and they 548 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 5: had quite promising results and this summer they presented it 549 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 5: to the Food and Drug Administration for approval or to 550 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 5: an advisory committee. Unfortunately, the advisory committee had a lot 551 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 5: of questions about how the study had been done and 552 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 5: they didn't recommend that the FDA approve it, and in 553 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 5: the end, the FDA did not approve it. So this 554 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 5: was a real setback for the field, basically because it 555 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 5: was the first of these drugs that was put forward 556 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 5: to the FDA as a possible therapeutic medication and there 557 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 5: were very promising results, so it did really improve the 558 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 5: situation for a lot of patients with PTSD. In the end, 559 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 5: it was not approved, so they're going to have to 560 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 5: go back now and do more studies or figure out 561 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 5: what to do next. 562 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 3: Who would you recommend psychedelics for. 563 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 5: I guess I have to think about the medical, scientific 564 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 5: part of me and also the human part of me. 565 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 5: I guess if you could participate in one of these 566 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 5: trials where everything is given under very closely monitored circumstances, 567 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 5: that would be a way to test it. But if 568 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 5: you were just somebody with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder or 569 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 5: even PTSD and just take it for yourself, I would 570 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 5: caution against that, just because so much kind of psychological 571 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 5: support goes with On the other hand, with really careful 572 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 5: and cautious use in healthy people, I think that the 573 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 5: drugs can reveal other ways of being or other ways 574 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,959 Speaker 5: of seeing the world if they're used in a responsible 575 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 5: ways and from a physical point of view, they're not 576 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 5: that harmful. That is not like cigarette smoking that's going 577 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 5: to give you cancer, orlcohol that's going to give you 578 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 5: liver disease. With the frequency of the doses that do take, 579 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 5: so people don't take LSD every day for a long 580 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 5: period of time. They take it once and maybe take 581 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 5: it again in a couple of months, and it's a 582 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 5: mixed experience. So under those circumstances, you know, it's not 583 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 5: there's no real physical hazard. There is some psychological hazard, 584 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 5: of course. 585 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 3: Doctor Jowett. What do you think is next for your research? 586 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 5: Well, I would like to follow up this depression study. 587 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 5: I'd like to see whether the microdoses improve depression. And 588 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 5: you know, if there's a possibility of a therapeutic of 589 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 5: low doses of an LSD or low doses of a 590 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 5: psychedelic relieving symptoms of depression, that would be really big. 591 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 5: That would be great. So I'm interested in that. I'm 592 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 5: also interested in lots of other things. I'm interested in 593 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 5: how drugs interact with social settings. So how is it 594 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 5: that the it's not just the drug changing behavior, but 595 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 5: it's the drug combined with the person that they're talking to, 596 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 5: whether it's a therapist or a friend, and so how 597 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 5: do those interactions occur? 598 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 4: And I'm interested in that rug. It turns out. 599 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 5: Many of these drugs like MDMA and alcohol, even emphetam 600 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 5: and make people feel more connected with other people. So 601 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 5: somehow there's this social component that using the drug makes 602 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 5: you feel closer to other people. So I think that's 603 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 5: kind of an interesting thing that hasn't been studied very much. 604 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 3: Is that lasting or does it just make you feel 605 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 3: more connected in the moment. 606 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 4: That's a good question. 607 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 5: Well, all we do is ask the people how connected 608 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 5: they feel with their partner at the end of the session, 609 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,719 Speaker 5: and then we ask them again two days later, and 610 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 5: they still feel connected with that person two days later. Now, 611 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 5: whether that's a memory of you know, that they felt 612 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 5: connected with that person and they're remembering it two days later, 613 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 5: or whether they still have a strong feeling of connection 614 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 5: at the moment the two days later, we don't know. 615 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 3: Got it. This has been really I would say eye opening, 616 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 3: but I'm going to say brain expanding instead. I'm really 617 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 3: grateful for your time. Thank you for joining us. 618 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 4: Well, you had good questions. It's a pleasure. 619 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: Talking to Thank you so much, doctor Douitt. 620 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 2: I cannot wait to see what your research produces next. 621 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 4: Thank you. 622 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 2: Doctor Harriet DeWitt is the founder and primary investigator of 623 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 2: the Human Behavioral Pharmacology Laboratory and a research professor at 624 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 2: the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Chicago. 625 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 3: We have to take another short break, but we'll be 626 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 3: right back. 627 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: We're back. 628 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 3: Before we go, we have a special message presented by 629 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 3: Coli Guard Danielle wellness. 630 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 2: Wednesdays are all about improving our health and wellness, and 631 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 2: it's many shapes and forms. We've talked about mental health, 632 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 2: financial health, skin health, you name it. 633 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 3: And today we want to shine a light on something 634 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 3: that's really personal to me because it has impacted people 635 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 3: I hold near and dear to my heart, and that's 636 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 3: colon cancer. I've had two friends diagnosed with colon cancer 637 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 3: at a young age, and thankfully they survived and recovered, 638 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 3: but I know all too well how important it is 639 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 3: to screen for colon cancer. Over the last few years, 640 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 3: two of my friends, both under thirty five, were diagnosed 641 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 3: with colon cancer. It was shocking and heart wrenching to 642 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 3: witness their journey. They went through rounds of chemo, multiple surgeries, 643 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 3: and the immense mental and emotional struggle of trying to 644 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 3: stay positive when the future seemed uncertain. One of the 645 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 3: most challenging aspects of colon cancer is that there often 646 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 3: aren't physical symptoms until it's in a late stage. That's 647 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 3: why screening is so crucial. Early detection can make all 648 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 3: the difference. 649 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 2: But unfortunately, there are a lot of misconceptions out there 650 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 2: when it comes to screening for the cancer. So We're 651 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 2: going to put on our scientist hats and debunk some 652 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 2: of these with the help of our friends at Exact Sciences, 653 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 2: makers of the Coliguard test. 654 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,240 Speaker 3: One common misconception is that if you eat a healthy 655 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 3: diet and exercise, you're at low risk for colon cancer. 656 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 3: That's actually not true. No one is at low risk 657 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,720 Speaker 3: for colon cancer. Also, even with no family or personal history, 658 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 3: you're still considered average risk. 659 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: Okay. 660 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 2: Another misconception is that colon cancer has definitive symptoms. The 661 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 2: fact is that many patients with early stage colon cancer 662 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 2: actually have no symptoms and are diagnosed through screening. 663 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 3: You might have also heard that you should start screening 664 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 3: for colon cancer at age fifty, but that's another misconception. 665 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,479 Speaker 3: If you're at average risk, the recommended age to start 666 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 3: screening is at forty five years old. And if you 667 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 3: think that the only option for colon cancer screening is 668 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 3: a colonoscopy that requires prep and a procedure, we've got 669 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 3: some good news. If you are forty five years or 670 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 3: older at average risk, you may be eligible to screen 671 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 3: at home on your own schedule with the Colargard test. 672 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,399 Speaker 2: The Colargard test is an easy to use at home 673 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 2: way to screen for colon cancer. If you're forty five 674 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 2: or older and at average risk, ask your healthcare provider 675 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 2: about screening for colon cancer with the Colargard test. You 676 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 2: can also request a Colguard prescription today at coliguard dot com, 677 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 2: slash podcast. 678 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 3: The Colligard test is intended to screen adults forty five 679 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 3: and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Do not 680 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 3: use a Colargard test if you have had adenomas, have 681 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 3: inflammed bowel disease, and certain hereditary syndromes, or a personal 682 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 3: or family history of colorectal cancer. The Colliguard test is 683 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 3: not a replacement for colonoscopy in high risk patients. Coliguard 684 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 3: test performance in adults ages forty five to forty nine 685 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 3: is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 686 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 3: fifty and older. False positives and false negatives can occur. 687 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 3: Coli Guard is available by prescription only. 688 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,720 Speaker 2: Start taking care of your health today. Ask your healthcare 689 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 2: provider about screening for colon cancer with the collar Guard test. 690 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 3: That's it for today's episode. Tomorrow, we're talking Paralympics with 691 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 3: award winning disability advocate Sophie Morgan. She's covering the games 692 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 3: for NBC. Listen and follow the bright Side on the 693 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 694 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: I'm Simone Voice. 695 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,760 Speaker 2: You can find me at simone Voice on Instagram and TikTok. 696 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 3: I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok. That's r O 697 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 3: b A. 698 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: Y See you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side.