Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and
Speaker 2: Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio. Katie, I know I asked
Speaker 2: you this earlier. I don't know if we were on
Speaker 2: air though, but about going to New Jersey and seeing
Speaker 2: leaves and the fire danger.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't actually remember if we were on air
Speaker 3: or not. But yeah, no, I'm.
Speaker 2: Always on air.
Speaker 3: Oh it is always well I live here, but anyway, Yeah, no,
Speaker 3: it was wild this weekend, waking up in Manhattan seeing
Speaker 3: the air quality index above one hundred. Haven't seen that
Speaker 3: in a while. I had to flee to New Jersey,
Speaker 3: at least where I was going in New Jersey.
Speaker 2: I have bad news for you. Yeah, there are wildfires
Speaker 2: in New Jersey and the according to the Associated Press,
Speaker 2: it's been the driest September and October ever.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: New Jersey is now going to issue a drought warning.
Speaker 2: It could be a step that could eventually lead to
Speaker 2: mandatory water restrictions if significant rain doesn't fall soon. I'm
Speaker 2: from California. Yeah, no, this is like what we deal
Speaker 2: with all the time.
Speaker 3: I made a joke, actually I was going to horseback
Speaker 3: rode and I made a joke to my barn manure,
Speaker 3: my barn owner.
Speaker 4: That is relatable.
Speaker 3: I feel like we're in California, like worried about wildfires.
Speaker 3: We're praying for rain, but we're in the great Ston,
Speaker 3: New Jersey.
Speaker 2: So that plus the fire and Prospect Park on Friday night,
Speaker 2: the hurricane intensity that we saw, rising insurance prices scary stuff.
Speaker 2: These are things that we can see coming as a
Speaker 2: result that many scientists would argue of a warming planet
Speaker 2: of climate change, but they're also hitting costs of a
Speaker 2: warming world. And that's what our Ginsung Park writes about
Speaker 2: in his new book. It's called slow Burn, The Hidden
Speaker 2: Costs of a Warming World. The Jinsung Park is assistant
Speaker 2: professor at the University of Pennsylvania. He's author also an
Speaker 2: environmental and labor economist. He joins us this afternoon from
Speaker 2: New York. Jinsun, good to have you with us. It's
Speaker 2: remarkable to hear that there are hidden costs here, because
Speaker 2: this is something that I think is so visceral for
Speaker 2: so many people, no matter where they live right now.
Speaker 2: So what's hidden right now?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, first of all, thanks for having me on
Speaker 1: the program. I was smiling a bit when you were
Speaker 1: in the intro talking about the wildfires in New Jersey.
Speaker 1: Certainly something that my wife and I experienced a lot
Speaker 1: of when we were living in California. But that's a
Speaker 1: great case in point of the hidden costs. I mean,
Speaker 1: when we talk about wildfires, typically what's most salient and
Speaker 1: visible are the flames, right they burned down homes, they
Speaker 1: force us to evacuate, as very destructive, but at least
Speaker 1: according to recent research by research at Harvard and Stanford
Speaker 1: and elsewhere, the hidden costs associated with wildfires smoke maybe
Speaker 1: just as damaging, if not more so. The last numbers
Speaker 1: that I saw suggest that, you know, maybe dozens of
Speaker 1: people have died due to wildfire flames in the past
Speaker 1: several years in the United States, but the estimates are
Speaker 1: that anywhere between five and fifteen thousand may have died
Speaker 1: every year due to the additional air pollution caused by
Speaker 1: the wildfire smoke, which, as you may know, can travel
Speaker 1: large distances. So that's just one example of the many
Speaker 1: hidden costs. I mean, just to take a step back,
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I wrote the book is
Speaker 1: is you know, as you mentioned, climate change has become
Speaker 1: such a visceral issue, but it's also a very complex issue,
Speaker 1: and we all need sort of you know, simplifying mental
Speaker 1: heuristics to help us think about it and for better
Speaker 1: or for worse.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I had the observation that a lot of the discussion
Speaker 1: around climate change is tended to have sort of a
Speaker 1: black or white kind of almost fatalistic hue to it,
Speaker 1: And that's useful if you think about so, it's useful
Speaker 1: to think about climate change, of course, as sort of
Speaker 1: an insurance problem, right, how are we ensuring against the
Speaker 1: risk of potential planetary catastrophe. That's obviously one important way
Speaker 1: to think about it. But one of the additional mental
Speaker 1: heuristics that I certainly hope we can add to our
Speaker 1: toolkit is to think of it as a slow burn, right,
Speaker 1: as not so much an imminent crisis for you know,
Speaker 1: all of life on planet Earth, but more of a
Speaker 1: slow burning kind of degradation of quality of life crisis
Speaker 1: that is already unfolding, sometimes in visually salient ways, but often.
Speaker 4: In hidden ways.
Speaker 3: Well, if you think about it as a slow burn,
Speaker 3: what does that mean in terms of addressing climate change?
Speaker 3: Because it feels like, you know, with so many things,
Speaker 3: there's this big, dramatic event and then there's all this
Speaker 3: urgency created around it to address it. If it is
Speaker 3: a slow burn, do you think that that takes the
Speaker 3: urgency out of trying to combat this problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's certainly a risk, and that's probably
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why, you know, there's so much
Speaker 1: disagreement about how we should communicate climate change, you know,
Speaker 1: the politics behind it.
Speaker 4: It's always been contentious, you know, and there's.
Speaker 1: Good, I think, a good argument for at least jolting
Speaker 1: us out of our complacency, you know, via images that
Speaker 1: are more you know, salient, and some might argue extreme,
Speaker 1: but I would argue that if you believe in you know,
Speaker 1: evidence based policy, and if you and if you believe
Speaker 1: in the public's ability to understand and digest even some
Speaker 1: modicum of data, the data kind of speaks for itself
Speaker 1: almost overwhelmingly. Now that even even if you think about
Speaker 1: just the economic consequences of the slow burn aspect of
Speaker 1: climate change, putting aside the sort of distant potential annihilation prospect,
Speaker 1: you know, the data suggests that it makes cost benefit
Speaker 1: sense from a societal standpoint to aggressively reduced emissions. Now,
Speaker 1: how we communicate that, who we communicate that to, in
Speaker 1: what settings? You know, I'm not an expert in that,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that that will vary. But if you
Speaker 1: care about just understanding the basic economics behind the cost benefit,
Speaker 1: the social cost benefit of reducing greenhouse gas emissions aggressively,
Speaker 1: which is what is it needed right.
Speaker 4: To slow the slow burn? The data sort of speaks
Speaker 4: for itself At this point, I think.
Speaker 2: Well, how do you think about the I think the
Speaker 2: conversation we're having today is going to be a lot
Speaker 2: different than the conversation we would have had two weeks ago,
Speaker 2: because now Trump has been elected to another term. He's
Speaker 2: now tapped former New York Congressman Lee Zelden is EPA chief.
Speaker 2: This is somebody who's a climate skeptic. We have about
Speaker 2: a minute left. We're going to do some news and
Speaker 2: we're going to come back and talk to you more
Speaker 2: about this. But how do you think about the federal
Speaker 2: government and the new administration playing a role in everything
Speaker 2: that you're talking about?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great question. I wish I had a
Speaker 4: crystal ball.
Speaker 1: I was speaking to one of my colleagues the other
Speaker 1: day about we were just speculating, Okay, like, how durable
Speaker 1: do we think the provisions of the Inflation Reduction Act
Speaker 1: and other legislative measures on climate change that we're passed
Speaker 1: during the Biden illustration will be over the next four years?
Speaker 1: And we weren't sure. I don't think anyone is sure
Speaker 1: about that. I will just say, since we I know
Speaker 1: we need to break there's a lot of uncertainty there.
Speaker 1: But my read of the data also suggests that there's
Speaker 1: a lot of momentum that is more a product of
Speaker 1: a combination of previous policy and technical change that I
Speaker 1: imagine will be.
Speaker 4: You know, will be in the background regardless of what.
Speaker 1: The specific policies tomorrow or not taken in this coming administration.
Speaker 4: So maybe that's room for a little bit of hope.
Speaker 2: Hey, radio manager, Justin Milliner me and sending us this story.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is kind of wild, very timely.
Speaker 2: Very timely. New York City Amtrak trains delayed after brushfire
Speaker 2: disrupts rail service. A brushfire east of New York Penn
Speaker 2: Station has spurred power outages for Amtrak trains running too
Speaker 2: and from New Haven, Connecticut, prompting lengthy delays.
Speaker 4: Four passengers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, apparently According to the agency, trains approaching Pen Station
Speaker 3: are being moved out of the area using diesel powered engines.
Speaker 3: All service between New York Pen Station and New Haven
Speaker 3: suspended for the remainder of the day. Trains between Boston
Speaker 3: South Station and New Haven are operating at limited capacity.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of unhappy commuters right now. But again,
Speaker 3: like you said, this is because of.
Speaker 2: A brushfire exactly. This is the again, a visceral reminder
Speaker 2: of climate change, given that we've seen record heat in
Speaker 2: the area, record temperatures in the area this month and
Speaker 2: last month. Let's get back to our G Sung Park,
Speaker 2: assistant professor at the University of Pennsylvania. He's also an
Speaker 2: environmental and labor activist. He's got a new book out.
Speaker 2: It's called Slowburn, The Hidden Costs of a Warming World.
Speaker 2: He joins us once again from New York. G Sung,
Speaker 2: before we went and did some news, you mentioned that
Speaker 2: you were thinking a way you were thinking about the
Speaker 2: new administration when it comes to policy, when it comes
Speaker 2: to the inflation reduction. I'm wondering how you think about
Speaker 2: government role here versus the role of the market versus
Speaker 2: the role of individuals. It's a big issue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and so maybe it's worth taking a step
Speaker 1: back and separating out what realm in which we are
Speaker 1: referring to it when it comes to climate change. The
Speaker 1: right you can think about mitigation, right, reducing emissions, the
Speaker 1: energy transition, whatever name you want to put to it.
Speaker 4: Right, the government role.
Speaker 1: The role of government there is in some ways unambiguous,
Speaker 1: at least in terms of whether there should be some
Speaker 1: government role, and we can get into why that is.
Speaker 1: But the short story is that, you know, climate change
Speaker 1: constitutes a classic negative externality problem and a global public
Speaker 1: good problem, and so government needs to play some role
Speaker 1: in setting the market signals straight. Of course, that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that government is the only player it. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a huge role to be played by the private sector.
Speaker 1: We could also talk about what is the government's role
Speaker 1: in adaptation. I mean, you mentioned the brush fire and
Speaker 1: what it has done to disrupting rail service between Penn
Speaker 1: Station and New Haven. I mean that's just one example
Speaker 1: of many ways in which you know, we can expect
Speaker 1: ongoing climate change regardless of what we do in terms
Speaker 1: of emissions reductions, how how climate change will affect our
Speaker 1: quality of life, and what the government role is there
Speaker 1: in terms of.
Speaker 4: Helping us adapt to those risk is less clear. I
Speaker 4: think I think it.
Speaker 1: Will depend in large part on you know, what are
Speaker 1: the marketing perfections at play when it comes to these
Speaker 1: kinds of adaptation decisions. Are there important information asymmetries or
Speaker 1: is there sort of a coordination role to be played.
Speaker 1: But to answer your question, yeah, I think it kind
Speaker 1: of depends, but certainly in the context of, you know,
Speaker 1: mitigating emissions so that we can slow global warming climate
Speaker 1: change overall, Yeah, I think it's quite quite obvious that
Speaker 1: government has to play at least to catalyzing and sort
Speaker 1: of price signal setting role, if that makes sense, whether
Speaker 1: that's with a price on carbon or something else.
Speaker 3: Let's talk a little bit more about consequences, because you
Speaker 3: make the point in the book that it's not just
Speaker 3: some of the obvious day to day consequences that you
Speaker 3: might think of, but you also talk about lower test
Speaker 3: scores for example, you talk about higher crime rates, not
Speaker 3: issues that people would typically associate with a hotter planet.
Speaker 3: Draw that link for.
Speaker 4: Us, Yeah, sure, And again you know that was one
Speaker 4: of the motivations.
Speaker 1: You know, the research that I've engaged in and I'm
Speaker 1: familiar with that there's this increasingly intricate and compelling story
Speaker 1: of how even so called non catastrophic amounts of warming
Speaker 1: appear to have you know, subtle but cumulatively meaningful and
Speaker 1: pervasive consequences for day to day life.
Speaker 4: So you mentioned test scores.
Speaker 1: You know, there are number of studies that now show
Speaker 1: that students taking their exams on a hot day, even
Speaker 1: in a place like New York City, which you know
Speaker 1: is one of the materially wealthiest you know, places on Earth.
Speaker 4: Nevertheless, students who take their.
Speaker 1: Exam on a ninety degree day, you know, roughly ten
Speaker 1: percent less likely these are New York City regions exams
Speaker 1: to pass a given subject.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Another example that may not be obvious is just thinking
Speaker 1: about how climate.
Speaker 4: Change interacts with the world of work.
Speaker 1: You know, even in the United States, again, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the most highly industrialized countries in the world,
Speaker 1: there are many millions of workers, in fact, over two
Speaker 1: thirds of the roughly one hundred million or so workers
Speaker 1: without a bachelor's degree who are routinely exposed to the
Speaker 1: elements on the job. Agriculture workers construction workers are you know,
Speaker 1: the first two categories that come to mind, but there
Speaker 1: are many others, you know, utility repair crew, warehouse workers,
Speaker 1: even in some indoor settings where there are already ambient
Speaker 1: sources of heat or cooling, is difficult. You know, there's
Speaker 1: evidence to suggest that when temperatures rise, and they don't
Speaker 1: have to be in the triple digits, you know, even
Speaker 1: moderately elevated temperatures in the eighties and nineties can lead
Speaker 1: to a significant uptick in the risk of serious accident
Speaker 1: or injury or illness on the job. So, you know,
Speaker 1: these are the kinds of you know, what I'm calling
Speaker 1: subtle climate risks that are more pervasive than first meets
Speaker 1: the eye, and which you know, the data and the
Speaker 1: research that have come online in the past decade plus
Speaker 1: given so much better insight into g some.
Speaker 2: We have a little over a minute left, so I
Speaker 2: want to make sure I get this end it because
Speaker 2: it's crucial. How do we make people care? We just
Speaker 2: went through an election where overwhelmingly what we learned was
Speaker 2: the only thing that matters is inflation in the economy.
Speaker 2: It's what polls are showing us how people feel about
Speaker 2: their economic situation. How do you get them to care
Speaker 2: about the temperature that kids take a test in when
Speaker 2: they can't afford to feed their family at the grocery store.
Speaker 4: That's a great question. I don't know if I have
Speaker 4: a great answer to him.
Speaker 1: But you know, one way that I've continued to think
Speaker 1: about this problem is, you know, by clarifying the links
Speaker 1: between something like climate change and the economy and making it,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe moving climate change as an issue out
Speaker 1: of what has historically been you know, an environmental policy
Speaker 1: issue per se into a more Hey, it actually matters
Speaker 1: for the broader operating you know, infrastructure of the economy.
Speaker 1: It matters for how we understand economic well being broadly,
Speaker 1: because shoot, that may be one way we make people
Speaker 1: to care a little bit more.
Speaker 4: But I don't have a great answer, to.
Speaker 2: Be honest, Yeah, I don't know either. It's something that
Speaker 2: I know a lot of people are thinking about right now.
Speaker 2: We really appreciate you taking the this afternoon, spending so
Speaker 2: much time with us. The new book Slow Burned The
Speaker 2: Hidden Costs of a Warming World. That's our g Sung Park,
Speaker 2: Assistant professor at the University of Pennsylvania, also an environmental
Speaker 2: and labor economist,