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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: let's get to the show.

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Speaker 4: Good morning, and welcome back to Counterpoints. I hope everybody

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Speaker 4: had a good holiday break, and I hope everyone had

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Speaker 4: a chance to read my book. You're gonna be a

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Speaker 4: quiz on it at the end of this show.

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Speaker 3: Are you going to be ready for it?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely excellent this She had already read this.

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Speaker 5: Out passive flowing colors.

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Speaker 4: But we've got a big show today because we have

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Speaker 4: some of the largest and most significant i think, political

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Speaker 4: and military developments in the war in Israel and now

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Speaker 4: also Lebanon that we're going to get into at the

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Speaker 4: end of the show. We're going to have a tech guy,

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Speaker 4: Paul Bigger, who went viral toward the end of December

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Speaker 4: with a post where he called out a lot of

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Speaker 4: people that he was directly doing business with, calling them

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Speaker 4: apologists for genocide, telling them you can keep your money,

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Speaker 4: and we're going to talk to him about what the

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Speaker 4: last two or three weeks has been like since then,

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Speaker 4: because I think a lot of people, whether it's this

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Speaker 4: issue or others, have always kind of dreamed of the

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Speaker 4: idea of telling everyone in their professional lives to just

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Speaker 4: go pound stand and I don't ever want to see

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Speaker 4: you again. He actually did it. He did the Tom

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Speaker 4: Cruise thing from that show Jerry McGuire, Yes, the Jerry

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Speaker 4: McGuire thing.

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Speaker 5: Now I'm worried you're going to Jerry McGuire everybody here.

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Speaker 4: Or they did the Dave Chappelle thing at the from

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Speaker 4: Half Baked Right, anyway, you're going to.

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Speaker 5: Do that too, probably one day day.

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Speaker 4: One day. But you're cool, sweet, Well, we also be This.

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Speaker 5: Is kind of in some ways related to what we're

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Speaker 5: all talking about with Israel, obviously because it kicked it

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Speaker 5: all off. But the president of Harvard resigned yesterday, was

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Speaker 5: pretty clearly pushed into her resignation amid allegations of plagiarism.

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Speaker 5: There was an I've seen story that basically didn't happen.

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Speaker 3: So we're going to break that John Doe's getting called out.

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Speaker 5: That sounds maybe like anti news, but we're going to

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Speaker 5: break down exactly why this didn't turn out. The list

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Speaker 5: that was supposed to be released yesterday. Everyone was anticipating

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Speaker 5: it a list of John donate.

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Speaker 4: Why do they keep teasing us with this? They're never

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Speaker 4: going to tell us anything.

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Speaker 5: It's been temporarily delayed. So we'll stay on the case

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Speaker 5: and we'll kind of explain what happened too. And then

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Speaker 5: Unusual Whales, The Great Unusual Whales Heroic Unusual Whales is

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Speaker 5: out with a twenty twenty three report on congressional trading

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Speaker 5: that Ryan, honestly I think should be one of the

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Speaker 5: biggest stories in the country. It is so repulsive. It

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Speaker 5: also goes back to Israel in a lot of ways too.

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Speaker 4: So members of Congress are still allowed to trade stocks,

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Speaker 4: like despite them promising we're going to take care of

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Speaker 4: that under the last Congress. That despite Kevin McCarthy saying

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Speaker 4: it was gonna be the very first thing that he

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Speaker 4: took care of when he took power. American people gave

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Speaker 4: him that power. He's now trading stocks is a private citizens.

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Speaker 4: So congratulations to everybody, and for the American people.

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Speaker 5: It should not go without note that Ryan is wearing

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Speaker 5: his Christmas tie. That's right for everyone who follows along

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Speaker 5: with the saga of Ryan's ties and Ryan's Christmas ties

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Speaker 5: in particular.

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Speaker 4: It's a nice time you get used to this one.

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Speaker 4: In twenty twenty four, you're going to be seeing a

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Speaker 4: lot of it. It's in the rotation, that's right, it

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Speaker 4: is indeed.

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Speaker 5: Well, let's start with the breaking news out of the

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Speaker 5: Middle East. Ryan, I'm really curious for how you were

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Speaker 5: reacting yesterday to the sites from Beirut Lebanon.

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Speaker 4: Yesterday we got news that the IDF accomplished its most

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Speaker 4: significant assassination to date of a top Hamas political figure.

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Speaker 4: But this one was in Beirut. Here's footage from the

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Speaker 4: aftermath of that attack. So we're told it's a Rory,

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Speaker 4: who is a deputy political leader in Hamas's political wing,

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Speaker 4: was killed in that attack. He had been a target

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Speaker 4: of Israel's for a very long time.

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Speaker 3: The US had had him on a hit list as well.

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Speaker 4: This is the highest ranking official that Israel has killed

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Speaker 4: since October seventh. According to the reports that we're getting,

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Speaker 4: the fact that it did not happen in Gaza but

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Speaker 4: instead in Beirut, is creating a concern about the escalated,

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Speaker 4: the spiraling escalation of this conflict, but also from the

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Speaker 4: other direction, raising questions among some people that if they

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Speaker 4: have this intelligence capacity and if this is what they

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Speaker 4: were doing, they would have maintained a lot of global

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Speaker 4: support even though this is a political figure, he's connected

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Speaker 4: to the alk Isaan brigades, Rather than dropping two thousand

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Speaker 4: pound bombs to go after low level Hamas figures and

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Speaker 4: kill dozens to hundreds of civilians at the same time

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Speaker 4: with a casually rate climbing over twenty two thousand, with

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Speaker 4: a lot of people unable to find food all day

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Speaker 4: long at this point, if they'd have taken a more

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Speaker 4: targeted approach, I think they would have maintained more support

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Speaker 4: around the world.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's an interesting point because there have been quotes

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Speaker 5: about precision versus turning Gaza into a parking lot, and

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Speaker 5: there's been completely i would say, contradictory points being made

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Speaker 5: depending on who's talking from the Israeli government about whether

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Speaker 5: the goal is to turn Gozit into a parking lot

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Speaker 5: or whether the goal is precision. The precision versus parking.

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Speaker 4: Lot approach and do we have a two here?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, so I think we used a two, but

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Speaker 5: here's a three. This is to Ryan's point, Senior Hamas

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Speaker 5: or Hamas hasn't formed mediators. So senior Hamas officials that

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Speaker 5: are involved in mediations, they've said they're freezing all hostage

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Speaker 5: negotiations until further notice. There are still dozens of hostages.

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Speaker 5: We don't know how many exactly are alive. That's another

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Speaker 5: difficult thing of all of this. I think it's still

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Speaker 5: north of a high hundred hostages now frozen in the

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Speaker 5: light of this in the aftermath of this attack, and.

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Speaker 4: A lot of these hostages are actually active duty soldiers

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Speaker 4: that are going to be much more difficult for Israel

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Speaker 4: to exchange because exchanging civilians, exchanging a civilian hostage for

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Speaker 4: kind of civilian hostages held in Israeli prisons under administrative

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Speaker 4: detention or something like that is an easier negotiation. When

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Speaker 4: it comes to trading kind of prisoners of war active

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Speaker 4: duty soldiers who were captured in combat, then Hamas asked

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Speaker 4: for much more significant concessions in order to trade those back.

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Speaker 4: Then there's the complication that because the IDF completely melted

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Speaker 4: away on October seventh, for so many hours that allowed

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Speaker 4: a bunch of just gangs and random fighters to make

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Speaker 4: their way through the fence and into some of these

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Speaker 4: Israeli areas. And so what people are saying is that

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Speaker 4: Hamas doesn't even know where all of the hostages are.

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Speaker 4: And that's a big problem for the negotiations. Well, because

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Speaker 4: Camas can trade the hostages that Hamas has. But you

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Speaker 4: just had some thugs and gangs come in and grab

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Speaker 4: people and so and so where are they and who

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Speaker 4: negotiates for them? All of that in the context of

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Speaker 4: this assassination just blowing up the talks.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and we have actually some footage we can roll

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Speaker 5: here of the fallout in the streets of beaut and

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Speaker 5: in Georgian and other places. Right. Yeah, so you can

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Speaker 5: see the protest on the screen here, and if you're

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Speaker 5: listening to the show, you can see a big crowd

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Speaker 5: walking down the street of Beirut protesting what had just unfolded.

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Speaker 5: It's nighttime, so it's probably not too far removed from

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Speaker 5: the event itself taking place. Ran then this is all

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Speaker 5: coming in the context and importantly in the context of

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Speaker 5: of President Biden saying what we want is, you know,

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Speaker 5: kind of a cessation. He might not use that word,

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Speaker 5: of course, because it's so so charged, but a cessation

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Speaker 5: of the invasion around the new Year. And that's exactly

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Speaker 5: what appears to be on the table in Gaza that

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Speaker 5: Israel is saying, we are kind of pausing, we're working

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Speaker 5: on hostage negotiations.

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Speaker 4: And then this and the kind of the historical path

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Speaker 4: that led us up to this neighborhood is also pretty interesting.

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Speaker 4: So this was in the Dahia neighborhood. To run it

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Speaker 4: back to how you even have a Hamas leader hanging

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Speaker 4: out in that neighborhood at all.

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Speaker 3: You have to go back. You can go back as

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Speaker 3: far as you want.

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Speaker 4: But if it's in the late nineteen seventies, you know,

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Speaker 4: after kind of the PLO is kicked out of Jordan,

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Speaker 4: they go into southern Lebanon, and then Israel pushes the

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Speaker 4: PLO from there up into be Route and southern Lebanon.

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Speaker 4: Then in nineteen eighty two they invade southern Lebanon with

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Speaker 4: this kind of scorched earth approach to get the PLO

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Speaker 4: Palestine liberation while seeing liberation organization out of Beirut. Because

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Speaker 4: their idea is that we're not going after the Lebanese people.

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Speaker 4: We're not going after the Palestinian people. Were just going

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Speaker 4: to root out the PLO and then everything will be okay,

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Speaker 4: which sounds familiar. They finally agree, the PLO agrees, okay,

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Speaker 4: after so much civilian death, after such a broad assault

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Speaker 4: on the civilian infrastructure in Lebanon, which was deliberately done

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Speaker 4: to kind of turn the civilian population in Lebanon against

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Speaker 4: the PLO, the PLO agrees with international mediators that they

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Speaker 4: will leave. They will leave, They will get on boats,

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Speaker 4: leave the port of Beirut, they go to Tunisia and

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Speaker 4: other places. The agreement that they got from the US

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Speaker 4: and from other international forces was that there would be

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Speaker 4: an international force that would protect the civilian population, because

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Speaker 4: they're saying, look, if this is if we're going to

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Speaker 4: leave to protect the civilians, then somebody has to protect them.

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Speaker 4: You can't just leave them at the mercy of the IDF.

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Speaker 4: Right after the last PLO official gets on a boat,

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Speaker 4: the international forces leave Israel, then DF carries out some

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Speaker 4: of the most brutal massacres in Israel's history in southern

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Speaker 4: Lebanon that the names of them.

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Speaker 3: Ring out today.

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Speaker 4: And so they then occupy Lebanon up until two thousand.

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Speaker 4: They leave after kind of a little guerrilla war in

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Speaker 4: which Hesbola, you know, has become like a real force

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Speaker 4: between eighty two and two thousand in reaction to this war.

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Speaker 4: Then in two thousand and six they invade again and

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Speaker 4: they they destroy the Dahia neighborhood so massively that it

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Speaker 4: creates this thing called the Dahia doctrine. Because there had

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Speaker 4: been some hesbel of fighters that were using this neighborhood,

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Speaker 4: the one where we just saw the images from to

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Speaker 4: launch some rockets from there, and so they said they

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Speaker 4: came up with what's called the Dahead doctrine. If any

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Speaker 4: civilian area is used by fighters to fight against the IDF,

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Speaker 4: we're going to just completely annihilate in a disproportionate way, flattening,

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Speaker 4: flatten it, They're going to turn it into a part

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Speaker 4: lot and became known as the Dahia doctrine.

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Speaker 3: And that's in fact what they did.

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Speaker 4: The Lebanese will turned into a disaster for Israel also

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Speaker 4: for Lebanon. But you've heard, you've had a lot of

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Speaker 4: people saying that what they're doing now in Gaza is

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Speaker 4: the Dahia Doctrine. They're just executing this doctrine. Just interesting

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Speaker 4: coincidence that now Hamas is in Dahia and that they're

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Speaker 4: bombing bombing the leader there.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that is really interesting. And actually speaking of Gaza,

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Speaker 5: we can put this next element up on the screen.

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Speaker 5: Israel's current plan, According to this thread from NBC an

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Speaker 5: NBC News reporter, Israel's current plan for Gaza after Hamas

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Speaker 5: involves local Palestinian clans rather than the PA, administering areas

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Speaker 5: and taking responsibility for civilian needs in Israeli official tells

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Speaker 5: NBC News. Israel's government also wants an inspection mechanism on

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Speaker 5: the Gaza Egypt border to prevent weapons smuggling controlled by

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Speaker 5: Israel on the Gazan side. Israel also wants a temporary

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Speaker 5: security zone on Gaza's perimeter, but has not said publicly

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Speaker 5: whether that would be on Israeli or Palestinian land. All

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Speaker 5: this is expected to discussed in an Israeli cabinet meeting

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Speaker 5: at nine pm, that's yesterday, a local time. The Israeli

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Speaker 5: official says, as Anthony Blincoln, our Secretary of State, prepares

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Speaker 5: to visit the region, this is explosive ryan their plan

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Speaker 5: for Gaza after hamas involves Palestinian clans rather than the PA.

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Speaker 5: This is a total change in the order and not

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Speaker 5: surprising in the wake of October seventh. But we haven't

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Speaker 5: seen some of these ideas, these kind of vague notions

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Speaker 5: fleshed out into specific policy proposals so far. And what

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Speaker 5: we get from this is Palestinian clans, we get temporary

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Speaker 5: security zone from this, an inspection mechanism on the Gaza

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Speaker 5: Egypt border, big news yesterday just.

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Speaker 4: On that front, right, And what they seem to be

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Speaker 4: doing is just throwing things against the wall see what happens,

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Speaker 4: to see what will stick. And for this plan this

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Speaker 4: was planned, was immediately rejected by everybody who knows anything

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Speaker 4: about anything, like, what are you talking about clans having clans?

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Speaker 4: These are like, seriously, let's talk, It's not going to happen. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: the only way that something like that works is if

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Speaker 4: it's a pretty minuscule refugee camp. And that actually fits

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Speaker 4: in with comments that we saw from ben Gavi and

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Speaker 4: Smotrich yesterday, which flowed into then this confrontation with public

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Speaker 4: confrontation with the United States. So let's start with ben Gavier.

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Speaker 4: If we can put up this, so he writes, the

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Speaker 4: war presents an opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration

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Speaker 4: of the residents of Gaza. Ben ver telling reporters, and

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Speaker 4: he says, we cannot withdraw from any territory we are

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Speaker 4: in in the Gaza strip. Not only do I not

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Speaker 4: rule out Jewish settlement there, I believe it is also

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Speaker 4: an important thing. So this is the thing of saying

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Speaker 4: the quiet part out loud. So when he says the

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Speaker 4: quiet part out loud, Matt Miller, my buddy over the

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Speaker 4: State Department. He responds, quote, the United States reject the

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Speaker 4: inflammatory and irresponsible statements from Israeli ministers Smotrich who said

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Speaker 4: basically the same thing and Ben Govere there should there

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Speaker 4: should be no mass displacement of Palestinians from Gaza. To

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Speaker 4: zero in on that that should word because you also

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Speaker 4: had let me let me find this. You had the

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Speaker 4: UN ambassador Lynda Thomas Greenfield. I have her quote here too.

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Speaker 4: We don't have the element. But so she responded later

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Speaker 4: that same day, she said, quote in a statement, there

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Speaker 4: should be no mass displacement of Palestinians from Gaza, and

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Speaker 4: we reject the recent inflammatory statements from Israeli ministers Besilil

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Speaker 4: Smotrich and It'samir Benkevie, so very similar wording from both

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Speaker 4: Matt Miller at the State Department and Lynda Thomas Greenfield

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Speaker 4: over at the United Nations, our ambassador over there. Note

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Speaker 4: the word should, like that these are diplomats who invest

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Speaker 4: enormous amounts of weight in all all of the words

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Speaker 4: that they choose, and for them to be deliberately choosing

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Speaker 4: the words should rather than will, there will not be

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Speaker 4: or there shall not be, I think indicates where the

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Speaker 4: United States is at this point and how aggressive they're

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Speaker 4: willing to be, because what else have they said? There

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Speaker 4: should not be two thousand pound bombs dropped in large

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Speaker 4: civilian neighborhoods, and there was like, okay, maybe there shouldn't be,

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Speaker 4: but guess what there are? So the US, by expressing

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Speaker 4: its kind of opinion on the matter rather than issuing

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Speaker 4: a directive of what can be done with its assistance,

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Speaker 4: is a huge discrepancy.

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Speaker 5: Well, and I think it also speaks to what they

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Speaker 5: see as as reasonably or let's not even say reasonable,

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Speaker 5: what they see is plausible. Because let's put the next

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Speaker 5: element up on the screen. This is how ben Gevier responded,

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Speaker 5: this got hot, really hot, so you can see it

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Speaker 5: on the screen. This is the translation from Hebrew. Really

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Speaker 5: appreciate the United States of America, but with all due respect,

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Speaker 5: we are not another star on the American flag. The

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Speaker 5: United States is our best friend. But first of all,

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Speaker 5: we will do what is best for the state of Israel.

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Speaker 5: The migration of hundreds of thousands of God from Gaza

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Speaker 5: will allow the residents of the enclave to return home

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Speaker 5: and live in security and protect the IDF soldiers. Ryan,

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Speaker 5: first your reaction, and second my reaction is just I

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Speaker 5: don't think that makes anybody safer. I don't think anybody

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Speaker 5: is made safer by that point. Like, in addition to

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Speaker 5: just the phrasing, I don't think that's making anybody. What

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Speaker 5: does it accomplish the post October seventh goal of protecting

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Speaker 5: and securing Israel, I don't think so.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm more interested in your take on this because me,

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Speaker 4: I'm already baked in on this and I found it

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Speaker 4: just early outrageous that, yeah, this top official from the

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Speaker 4: government government that we fund is going to tell us,

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Speaker 4: you know, publicly to our faith no, that we we

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Speaker 4: are going to engage in an ethnic cleansing of this

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Speaker 4: of this area, like it's an not our humiliation to

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Speaker 4: us as well as being just evil.

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Speaker 3: But that that's where I am.

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Speaker 4: What I'm curious about is does he start losing people,

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Speaker 4: you know, who have been more supportive or more sympathetic

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Speaker 4: toward what they've been doing over the last two months.

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Speaker 4: So that's why I'm curious what you think of it,

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Speaker 4: but also how people are, how people who've been supportive

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Speaker 4: of kind of the IDF's effort here are seeing this

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Speaker 4: because now it's getting so difficult. Like Ted, if Ted

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Speaker 4: Cruz were here, you know, he'd be like, I condemned nothing,

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Speaker 4: but it'd be very difficult for him to suggest that

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Speaker 4: this is now a targeted operation against Amas and that

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Speaker 4: if a mass would just surrender, this would be over.

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Speaker 4: When you have Israeli government officials saying explicitly no, no, no, no, no.

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Speaker 4: What we're trying to do is get everybody.

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Speaker 5: Out, everybody out of Gaza. Yeah no, And we can't

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Speaker 5: rule out settlements in Gaza and actually insist on them, right,

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Speaker 5: And so again I would probably differ from Ted Cruz

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Speaker 5: and other probably mainstream Republicans on the point of whether

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Speaker 5: or not that's why. And I think though that what

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Speaker 5: to your point, what they would say actually is they

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Speaker 5: probably come down on the side of Bengavie because they

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Speaker 5: feel that the Biden administration has been insufficiently supportive of Israel,

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Speaker 5: that the Biden administration's public posture of support of Israel

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Speaker 5: is undercut by all kinds of things, you know, by

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Speaker 5: its support for the UN, by.

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Speaker 4: The refugee or could Biden do if Biden were basically

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Speaker 4: Ben Gavier's deputy, Like what more could he even have done?

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Speaker 5: I mean, that's right, because everything that the Biden administration

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Speaker 5: has done and like this is a great example of

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Speaker 5: where mainstream Republicans would say Biden has been insufficiently supportive,

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Speaker 5: because we know that Biden was negotiating behind the scenes

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Speaker 5: for a draw down in the New Year, and that's

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Speaker 5: something that people in Israel, sort of hard right people

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Speaker 5: in Israel were uncomfortable with, and that a lot of

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Speaker 5: people here disagreed with, saying that as soon as we get,

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Speaker 5: you know, to this period of the new year, this

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Speaker 5: should become become a p is an operation, which is

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Speaker 5: sort of a teal in and of itself, of course, yeah,

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Speaker 5: become a position operation. So I think that's what they

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Speaker 5: would say. It's hard for me to argue that position

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Speaker 5: because I don't believe that position. I don't buy that

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Speaker 5: position myself. But I think actually that's christ and I

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Speaker 5: were talking about this yesterday. For us to be huge

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Speaker 5: participants in a war, we're fundamentally we are on different pages.

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Speaker 5: The United States having the President say two state solution,

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Speaker 5: two state solution, two state solution, and having net Yahu

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Speaker 5: say absolutely for years, no, two state solution, it's not possible.

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Speaker 5: One state solution, and you have billions of dollars of money,

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Speaker 5: but then also munitions pouring into this war effort, tens

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Speaker 5: of thousands of people's lives lost, and fundamentally you don't agree.

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Speaker 5: In the end, it's a very dangerous place to be

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Speaker 5: because then there's disagreement on some of these smaller points

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Speaker 5: that adds up to a horrifying picture of a quagmire,

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Speaker 5: the recipe for a quagmire.

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Speaker 4: Or a recipe for what they call the peace between

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Speaker 4: the Lion and the lamb, where instead of you do

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Speaker 4: wind up with a one state solution, except it's because

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Speaker 4: you've gotten rid of all the Palestinians.

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Speaker 5: A dangerous one state solution by the way, because you

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Speaker 5: have pushed everybody into countries that are not that far

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Speaker 5: away from you, still very close.

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Speaker 4: Well, they're trying to push them in the Europe and

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Speaker 4: the United States as well.

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Speaker 5: Still, so Lebanon, like, these places are not that far

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Speaker 5: and that's a right.

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Speaker 3: And we've seen how that worked out before.

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Speaker 5: Powder keg Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: To read a little bit more from Matt Miller's statement,

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Speaker 4: he wrote, we have been we have been clear, consistent

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Speaker 4: and unequivocal that Gaza is Palestinian land and will remain

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Speaker 4: Palestinian land. So there is a will so give give

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Speaker 4: the United States credit there h and will remain Palestinian

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Speaker 4: land with Hamas no longer in control of its future

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Speaker 4: and with no terror groups able to threaten Israel.

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Speaker 5: But this is exactly what we were talking about the

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Speaker 5: two states solution. You have completely different. It's not like

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Speaker 5: Bengavir is just a member of parliament, the Kanessa, He's

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Speaker 5: literally part of the government. That's to have two people

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Speaker 5: on such dramatically different pages at the exact same time,

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Speaker 5: when you have the US as such a huge participant

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Speaker 5: financially and in terms of resources in this war, that's outrageous.

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Speaker 4: And words don't mean anything if the weapons continued to flow,

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Speaker 4: like as long as we continue to enable the military assault,

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Speaker 4: which then makes the settlements possible. And if after that

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Speaker 4: we enable the importation of all of the steel and

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Speaker 4: the copper and the construction equipment and other things that

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Speaker 4: you need to build the four seasons Gaza that the

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Speaker 4: IDF will want to construct. There doesn't matter what we say.

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Speaker 4: Matt Miller here says that is the future we seek

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Speaker 4: in the interests of Israelis and Palestinians, the surrounding region

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Speaker 4: and the world. If that's the future we seek, why

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Speaker 4: are we funding the exact opposite future, right, Yeah, and

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Speaker 4: raised the questions of whether or not that's what we

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Speaker 4: actually see.

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Speaker 5: To the point where you're being clapped back at on

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Speaker 5: Twitter by the government that you're backing. I mean, it's

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Speaker 5: to your point, it's embarrassing and it should be frightening,

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Speaker 5: even if you are on different sides of this argument.

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Speaker 5: It should be frightening just because it shows the extent

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Speaker 5: to which this war can kareem out of control very well.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's already obviously it's war, it's out of control,

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Speaker 5: but could koreem into a broader regional conflict. And you know,

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Speaker 5: we started this block by talking about Lebanon. This is

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Speaker 5: just an absolute powder keg. There's no clear sense of

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Speaker 5: direction from our government, from anybody's government at this point.

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Speaker 4: The only people with a sense of clear directions seem

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Speaker 4: to be Smotrich right and Benivie right, Like they have

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Speaker 4: their eye on the prize.

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Speaker 5: And they are voices in their own.

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Speaker 4: And then yeah, like the who has done nothing to

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Speaker 4: kind of make it make anybody believe that they're doing

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Speaker 4: anything other supporting.

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Speaker 5: But what does he even think? Yeah about that exact question.

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Speaker 5: We'll learn more about that in the days ahead. Ryan,

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Speaker 5: we wanted to talk a little bit about the back

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Speaker 5: and forth over we can put this next element up

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Speaker 5: on the screen. A lot of people probably saw this.

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Speaker 5: The New York Times dropped an article in the last

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Speaker 5: several days that detailed their investigation. You can see the

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Speaker 5: headline there, screams without words, how Hamas weaponized sexual violence

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Speaker 5: on October seventh. That was published just a few days ago,

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Speaker 5: and it has some just incredibly disturbing allegations. Let me

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Speaker 5: just read from it a little bit in case people

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Speaker 5: haven't been following sort of the broader conversation about it.

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Speaker 5: It is really official to say that everywhere Hamas terror

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Speaker 5: struck the rave, the military bases along the Gaza border

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Speaker 5: and the Kimmits them, they brutalized women. A two month

436
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 5: investigation by The Times uncovered painful new details establishing that

437
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 5: the attacks against women were not isolate events, but part

438
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 5: of a broader pattern of gender based violence. On October seventh,

439
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 5: relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones,

440
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 5: and interviews with more than one hundred and fifty people,

441
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 5: including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers, and rape counselors, the Times

442
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 5: identified at least seven locations Whereasraeli women and girls appeared

443
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 5: to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated. Four witnesses described

444
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 5: in graphic detail, seeing women raped and killed at two

445
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 5: different places, a long route two thirty two, the same

446
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 5: highway where miss Abduscha's half naked body was found sprawled

447
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 5: on the road at a third location. And I'm reading

448
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 5: from the relevant excerpts of the article and pay attention

449
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 5: to the wording and the sourcing as well. The Times

450
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 5: interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics, who together described finding

451
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,239
Speaker 5: more than thirty bodies of women and girls in and

452
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 5: around the rave site and intukubuts them in a similar

453
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 5: states as miss Abdush's leg spread close torn off signs

454
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 5: of abuse in their genital areas. Ryan, it didn't stop there, unfortunately,

455
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 5: as unfortunate as it is to even delve into this,

456
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 5: relative of the sister of one of the women that

457
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 5: is discussed in the article.

458
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 4: Right, one of the main women that you mentioned in.

459
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 5: The article very much one of the main women in.

460
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 4: Described in a subsection if you've read the story as

461
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 4: the woman in the black dress, right, The.

462
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 5: Woman in the black dress and her family talks in

463
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 5: New York Times for the story and was not pleased

464
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 5: with the outcome.

465
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 4: Right, They were shocked at what they read, and so

466
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 4: her sister posts on Instagram. People have since verified that

467
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 4: this is in fact her sister. Yeah, we can put

468
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 4: up a nine. So basically, what she's saying here is

469
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 4: that there wasn't time for her to be raped in

470
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 4: that the New York Times never told them that they

471
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 4: were going to discuss her death in terms of sexual assault.

472
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 4: We can talk about how we can clarify and contextualize

473
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 4: this in a moment, but just want to read a

474
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 4: little bit to people who are on the podcast. So

475
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 4: she writes, the appearance is not easy, and she's talking

476
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 4: about a video that the Times looked at. But it

477
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 4: is clear that the dress will be up and not

478
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 4: in a normal way. The head is half burned because

479
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 4: they threw a grenade on the car so that it

480
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 4: won't so that it won't look like I justify what

481
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 4: they did there. The scum did much worse deeds. She's

482
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 4: talking about Hamas here. Yes they tried, Yes they cut

483
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 4: off heads and parts of bodies, but in the case

484
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 4: of my sister, they did not, and why not?

485
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 3: And so she says.

486
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 4: At six point fifty one, Gal sends us a message

487
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 4: to the WhatsApp group. We are on the border. You

488
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 4: don't understand what's going on, what explosions are there. We'll

489
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 4: get out of here. At seven o'clock, my brother in

490
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 4: law calls his brother and says that they were shot

491
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 4: in the wave. She is grunking how in four minutes

492
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 4: they also raped and burned. So the sister's argument that

493
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 4: she's making here on Instagram is that it's just simply

494
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 4: was impossible because they were in their car and had

495
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 4: the grenade thrown in it and that and so the Times.

496
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 4: So The Times has not yet responded to this charge

497
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 4: from the sister, but this was one of the central

498
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 4: alliations at the Times build bilt, It's built its story around.

499
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 4: So we just wanted to raise this one here and

500
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 4: we'll can we'll continue to follow this because the New

501
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 4: York Times story has been you know, used, you know,

502
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 4: quite heavily in the last four or five days, not

503
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 4: just to kind of justify the ongoing assault on on

504
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 4: Goss and civilians, but also then to kind of condemn

505
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,719
Speaker 4: anybody who has been critical of the assault and say, well,

506
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,239
Speaker 4: clearly you don't care about all of these atrocities that

507
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 4: were committed, But to me, if you're going to write

508
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 4: a piece of this, of this heightened importance, you've got

509
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 4: to be a lot more careful than this. But it

510
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 4: also feels like a moment where if you, as a reporter,

511
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 4: as a media organization, feel like the wind is at

512
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 4: your back, so to speak, that you're that the thrust

513
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 4: of public opinion is all in one direction, then you

514
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 4: get a sloppy you say, you can you report things

515
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 4: that aren't backed up in the same way that you

516
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 4: would if in other words, if if The New York

517
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 4: Times did a piece where they were kind of challenging

518
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 4: the conventional narrative around what happened on October seventh, they

519
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 4: would have those anecdotes so buttoned down that a hurricane

520
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 4: wouldn't be able to lift them off the ground. But

521
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 4: if if you're writing a narrative that is in line

522
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 4: with the conventional understanding and then just and just advancing

523
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 4: in a little bit, you're much less careful about what

524
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 4: you're because everybody's gonna, you know, gobble it up and

525
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 4: share it no matter what, and because anybody who raises

526
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 4: questions about it is then immediately asked whether or not

527
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 4: they're a rape apologist.

528
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 5: It's I think it's always worth noting when a major

529
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 5: news organization, or any news organization for that matter, faces

530
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 5: a serious accusation of you misreporting something, especially in something

531
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 5: as sensitive as you were talking to the family of

532
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 5: somebody who was basically blown to bits in a ambush

533
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 5: at a music festival, and you get that story egregiously

534
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 5: wrong according to these allegations, I think that's always worth noting.

535
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 5: On the other hand, Ryan, I'm curious if I just

536
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 5: like present you with a question that might be on

537
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 5: some viewers' minds, which is why focus on you know,

538
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 5: it's true, this is a bad and you kind of

539
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 5: just answered this question because from my perspective, you know,

540
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 5: there are taped interrogations with Hamas militants that you know, again,

541
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 5: you have to put some stock in the IDF if

542
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 5: you take this as gospel. And I'm not saying that

543
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 5: all of these taped interrogations that we've gotten have been

544
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 5: perfectly you know that there hasn't been any editing or

545
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 5: any coercion or anything like that that always happens. But

546
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 5: also people who are caped of great evil and great

547
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 5: violence are capable of great evil and great violence, and

548
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 5: that's what we saw carried out on October seventh. So

549
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 5: I do take those, you know, admissions from Hamas militants

550
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 5: themselves in their own words, which you can you can

551
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 5: see and watch on the internet seriously. And so the

552
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 5: focus that I've seen online about this time story from

553
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 5: my perspective, has been disproportionate. But it's interesting to me

554
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 5: because I think it speaks to one of the strange

555
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 5: realities about the Israel Palastine conflict, which is that elite opinion.

556
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 5: It's one of the very few topics on which elite

557
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 5: opinion is genuinely polarized. You know, it's it's not like,

558
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 5: for example, let's see, it's not like what's a good

559
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 5: example of like a lot of cultural things, gay marriage,

560
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 5: for example, You're you're not going to get the same

561
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 5: amount of debate on that among cultural elites are probably

562
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 5: among the broader country. But even ten years ago then

563
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 5: you would have among the general population on this, And

564
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 5: we're going to talk about this in the next block.

565
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 5: Even at Harvard there are bitter disagreements between the Bill

566
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 5: Ackmans and the Claudine Gays and other professors. And that's

567
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 5: where I think people see that. In media, there are

568
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 5: these competing narratives. Sometimes you get a narrative from the

569
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 5: New York Times that is incredibly pro Israel. Sometimes you

570
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 5: get a narrative from the Associated Press or Reuters and like, woo,

571
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 5: you know, maybe that's a little too credulous of Hamas,

572
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 5: what Hamas is telling you, et cetera, et cetera. So

573
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 5: that's where I actually find the response to the story interesting.

574
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 5: But I'm just pitching that question because I'm guessing it's

575
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 5: on people's minds.

576
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 4: And the first thing i'd say is there's a great

577
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 4: book people should read by Christina Lamb called Our Bodies

578
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 4: Their Battlefields, which is about the history of rape as

579
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 4: a weapon of war. It's something that has been overlooked

580
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 4: by the Larsi male kind of military historian, totally demographic,

581
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 4: and so the possibility that there was zero sexual violence

582
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 4: on October seventh is basically close to zero. Like it

583
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 4: is it is, it is something that happens in war.

584
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 4: When The New York Times leads its most significant two

585
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 4: month long investigation with a particular anecdote, because their article

586
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 4: begins at first she was known simply as the woman

587
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 4: in the black dress in a greeny video you can

588
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 4: see her, and that is then challenged directly by her sister,

589
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 4: not and challenge in a way that says, look, your

590
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 4: timeline doesn't line up, like a grenade was thrown on

591
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 4: the car she was blown up. And The New York

592
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 4: Times doesn't present in this article any other evidence other

593
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 4: than kind of this, this this snippet of video, other

594
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 4: than they say based largely on the video evidence, which

595
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 4: was verified by The New York Times, so they saw

596
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 4: the video. Israeli police officials said they believed that Miss

597
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 4: Abdusch was raped, and she became a symbol of the

598
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 4: horrors visited upon Israeli women and girls during the October

599
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 4: seventh attacks. Israeli officials say that everywhere Hamas terrorists struck,

600
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 4: they brutalized women. And so if the symbol of the

601
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 4: horrors visited upon Israeli women is this anecdote which is

602
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 4: at the very top of the New York Times high

603
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 4: profile story, and it is sourced to Israeli police officials anonymously,

604
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 4: and her sister is publicly contradicting the possibility of it

605
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 4: even happening, it requires further investigation.

606
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 3: It may be that the sister who is in shock.

607
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 4: Who is suffering through a tremendous grief, and may want

608
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 4: something to be different than it is.

609
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 3: That may be, but this warrants.

610
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 4: This warrants more investgation rather than just sitting here and saying, well,

611
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 4: Israeli police officials say this, so yeah, and the New

612
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 4: York Times has a snippet of video. Yeah, but the

613
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 4: video is not of a rape.

614
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 5: Yeah. I think that's a good point. I think that's

615
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 5: a totally fair point, especially because the way both statements

616
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 5: from competing sides, especially in the middle of the war,

617
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 5: in the middle of any war, are treated by the

618
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 5: press is an extremely important question because people's lives are

619
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 5: on the line, like for example, with some hospital bombings retaliations.

620
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 5: The people who are making those decisions whether or not

621
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 5: to retaliate are certainly following the press, and the press

622
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 5: is certainly getting information from intelligence but also from its

623
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 5: own reporting and all of that. So yes, I mean

624
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 5: that actually, when when government is saying something, media is

625
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 5: taking that a what is government either lying about or

626
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 5: getting flat out wrong and just being oppy with facts

627
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 5: for the sake of propaganda? And then be how is

628
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,959
Speaker 5: media treating those claims with skepticism?

629
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 4: Totally important because and trigger warning, explicit content warning, all

630
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 4: those things. There's one reason there's been so much focus

631
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 4: on this article is because of the height of and

632
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 4: like the explosive nature of some of the allegations, some

633
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 4: of them rising to the level of this is really

634
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 4: hard to believe and isn't isn't backed up by forensic evidence, video,

635
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 4: other things, one witness that they have here. And I'll

636
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 4: read people this and I think people will understand when

637
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 4: I read this why some people are skeptical of some

638
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 4: of this reporting and also why some people are like

639
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 4: this justifies what's going on at this moment. The woman

640
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 4: this is, The New York Times writes. The first victim

641
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 4: she said she saw was a young woman with copper

642
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 4: color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down

643
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 4: to her knees. One man hold her by the hair

644
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 4: and made her bend over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said,

645
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 4: and every time she flinched, he plunged a knife into

646
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 4: her back.

647
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 3: She said.

648
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 4: She then watched another woman shredded into pieces while one

649
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 4: terrorist raped her. She said, another pulled out a box

650
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 4: cutter and sliced off her breast. One continues to rape her,

651
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 4: and the other throws her breast to someone else and

652
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 4: they play with it, throw it and it falls on

653
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 4: the road. This anecdote made it into the New York Times,

654
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 4: which The New York Times is saying is credible that

655
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 4: people were that that hamas terrorists.

656
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 5: It's named eye witness.

657
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 4: It's a named eyewitness. Name is her last name is.

658
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 4: Sapir said that they used a box cutter and were

659
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 4: throwing a breast around back and forth like a like

660
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 4: some type of a sporting event. And they do have

661
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 4: another person who was hiding in the same spot. He

662
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 4: said he and Sapier were part of a group of

663
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 4: friends who had met up at the party. In an interview,

664
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 4: he said he barely lifted his head to look at

665
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 4: the road, but he also described seeing a woman raped

666
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 4: and killed. So there's a second witness. But he's they

667
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 4: don't they don't quote him, like they don't, you know,

668
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 4: he doesn't. He's saying he didn't he didn't look up,

669
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 4: and then this, and then the story and then the

670
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,439
Speaker 4: story ends there basically at this moment. So it leaves

671
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 4: people wondering, like what what happened here?

672
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 6: Is?

673
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 4: Did work? Like where there were there really people throwing

674
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 4: body parts around the road and there's and nobody else

675
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 4: saw this. There's no video of this, there's no dash

676
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 4: cam video of this, there's no what where are these bodies?

677
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 5: Like?

678
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 4: Did they get picked up? Did he must take them

679
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 4: back to gods? Like you if if if bodies were

680
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 4: mutilated in this fashion, you would ex they we would

681
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 4: have them, like you would think.

682
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 5: Right, Although I mean, I guess it depends because we

683
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 5: know at the music festival and we can put the

684
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 5: next element the last I'm up to this block up

685
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 5: on the screen some of the security situation. We already

686
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 5: know that in the response the idea may have hurt

687
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 5: a whole lot of people. And so that is just

688
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 5: to say bodies may be mutilated in the ways that

689
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 5: are even after terrible mutilations happened to them from shelling

690
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 5: and burning and whatnot, that it would be hard to

691
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 5: make that determination. And so yeah, the survivors of the

692
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 5: October seventh concert are seeking fifty six million dollars in

693
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 5: damages from Israeli security forces, and we'll have to follow

694
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 5: that lawsuit closely because that's substantiated. There's no question that

695
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 5: they have serious claims.

696
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 4: And their main claim comes from the fact that on

697
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 4: Friday night they were already getting very credible reports that

698
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 4: an assault was coming onto the Saturday. On late Friday

699
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 4: night early Saturday morning on Friday, the IDF approved the

700
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 4: concert Rave Event Musical Event festival to go for an

701
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 4: extra day, and that said, it's okay if they had said, no,

702
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 4: we're getting like the Because the IDEF is responsible for

703
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 4: this event, which is happening just across the fence from Gaza.

704
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 4: The IDEF knew that there were all of these intelligence

705
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 4: reports that something could be happening. If they had said no,

706
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 4: the permanent you had, which was just for a couple

707
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 4: of days, it ends now like we're not extending it

708
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 4: for another day. Everybody go home. Three hundred plus people

709
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 4: would still be alive. It's not more than that, yes, right,

710
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 4: it was how many were killed at the at the

711
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 4: concert like it was at least I think it was

712
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 4: at least three hundred, so yes, and plus the rest

713
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 4: completely traumatized and running for their lives, and others others captured,

714
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 4: taken hostage and may have been killed either in it

715
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 4: a bombing, died of dysentery, or hopefully still alive and

716
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 4: will be released at some point. So there's there's doing

717
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 4: in a landmark case. The IDF for what I think

718
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 4: everyone across the spectrum agrees as a monumental failure.

719
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 5: In the aftermath of October seventh, the president of Harvard

720
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 5: came under fire. The former president of Harvard, we should say,

721
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 5: Claudine Gay. We can put the first element up on

722
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 5: the screen. She published a letter yesterday resigning from her

723
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 5: post atop Harvard. She was the first black female president

724
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 5: of Harvard. She in the aftermath of October seventh, was

725
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 5: called before Congress essentially to respond to allegations that Harvard

726
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 5: had not been as harsh on these speech questions that

727
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 5: pertain to propoused Indian students versus pro Israel students and

728
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,280
Speaker 5: Republicans grilled Claudine Gay, they grilled the presidents of Penn

729
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 5: and it was Yeah, the president of Penn resigned right

730
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 5: away afterwards, and Claudine Gay in the meanwhile, So Claudine

731
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 5: Gay meanwhile got hit with a ton of allegations of

732
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 5: plagiarism that originated actually from Counterpoints guest Chris Rufo and

733
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 5: Aaron Sibarium, who's an excellent reporter over at the Washington

734
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 5: Free Beacon.

735
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 4: Well, they were bouncing around the Internet, I'd read as

736
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 4: part of kind of an anti DEI attack on Gay,

737
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,720
Speaker 4: like people were accusing her of being unqualified and boosted

738
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 4: just because she was a black woman. So she just

739
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 4: bouncing around like racist four Chan things before it kind

740
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 4: of migrated into the discourse. Yeah, by Rufo really seems

741
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 4: to be I don't know how much credit he gets,

742
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 4: like if he was the one that first surfaced them,

743
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 4: if he gave him the New York Post or what.

744
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 5: He did follow up on tips and the same with

745
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 5: Sibarium that as soon as so. Basically, this is why

746
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 5: it's related to October seventh, even though these are you know,

747
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 5: play or allegations throughout the course of her career, is

748
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 5: that they started getting tips. Rufo and Svarian started getting

749
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 5: tips because people were so pissed off about her testimony

750
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 5: in front of Congress in which she kind of copped

751
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 5: to this legalese or resorted to this legalese to defend

752
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 5: Harvard's speech policies. And that's where this is, you know,

753
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 5: like there's this so many different conversations happening in this

754
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 5: one conversation alone that you have to sort of disentangle

755
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 5: these things, which is I think the speech policy is

756
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 5: absolutely correct, Like I think the speech policy that she

757
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 5: was defending is absolutely correct, And on the other hand,

758
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 5: think that she was using this awful like HR language

759
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 5: to mask hypocritical approaches to speech. So conservative students are

760
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 5: obviously punished and their speech is restricted disproportionately in different cases,

761
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 5: and so clouding gay gets brought before Congress and has

762
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 5: no sense of moral clarity just like it is incapable

763
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 5: of defending with any like real vigor and principle her

764
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 5: position on free speech it was a circus.

765
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 3: To me, it was.

766
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 4: It was bad answer that given by both Penn and Harvard,

767
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 4: because at least Dephonics said yes or no. Question. Can

768
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 4: calling for the genocide of Jews get you, uh, get

769
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 4: you caught up in the disciplinary process right at your college.

770
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 4: I think she asked for it yes or no, Just

771
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 4: say yes, because there are certainly are situations where it

772
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 4: could and then you say yes. Of course, each individual

773
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 4: case depends on the context, what words were used and

774
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 4: in what context. And you know, because there was a

775
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,399
Speaker 4: famous case of a professor at Penn who he said,

776
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 4: all I want for Christmas is white genocide. Just a joke, people.

777
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 5: He was a Drexel.

778
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 3: Maybe Philadelphia, so he was a joke.

779
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 4: If but if you say that, just that there's a

780
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 4: strict no context rule. He's done and everybody's telling an

781
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 4: obvious joke is done if if context can't be allowed,

782
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 4: but they just should just say yes. And then you

783
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,720
Speaker 4: force Stefanic then to kind of get into the weeds,

784
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 4: which is what the mi T president did. She said, well,

785
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 4: I haven't heard anybody saying that on campus. What are

786
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 4: you talking about? And Stefana came back with, well, there

787
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 4: have been people who chanted intifada, which is Arabic for

788
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 4: the word uprising. And at that point you're like, well,

789
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 4: I'd have to see a lot of context in order

790
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 4: to say that. You know, I understand why people receive

791
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 4: that in a violent fashion because it's second to defada.

792
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 4: It was quite violent or suicide bombings involved, but the

793
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 4: word antifada just means uprising. There's a news outlet that

794
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 4: covers Israel Palestine called Electronic Antifada. Like, just is reading

795
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 4: that calling for genis I know, of course not. And

796
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 4: she's kept her job, and she has so far kept

797
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 4: her job, but they're coming for her next anyway, go ahead, I.

798
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, no, no, no that Let's put this up on

799
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 5: the screen so we can see the examples of plagiarisim.

800
00:44:54,840 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 5: The Freebeacon actually made this very handy illustrate where you

801
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 5: can see highlighted text between Claudine Gay's work. She's a

802
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 5: political scientist. I think she studied economics at Stanford and

803
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 5: taught she's taught political science for a while, and you

804
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 5: can you can just see the text being highlighted. That's

805
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 5: the same. We can put the next element up as

806
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 5: well now too, and you could go to the Freebeacon

807
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 5: website to read all of these examples, and you can

808
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 5: see them in Rufo's work as well. It's also worth

809
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,919
Speaker 5: noting the Associated Press headline just this morning. I mean,

810
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 5: this is one of the best that I've ever seen

811
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 5: among associated bad Associated Press headlines. Harvard's president resignation highlights

812
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 5: new conservative weapon against colleges plagiarism. Again, like, this is

813
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 5: what Jonathan Chait already yesterday and in New York Magazine

814
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 5: was accusing Rufo of weaponizing quote like high standards of

815
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 5: excellence something like that, one of those phrases like exceptional

816
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 5: standards or standards of excellence, something to that degree, which

817
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 5: is just stop, pause and listen to yourself. That's a

818
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 5: weird way to talk about what happened, because there are

819
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 5: a lot of students at Harvard who looked at Claudine

820
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 5: Gay and said, if I did what you did here,

821
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 5: and a lot of it was not citing works that

822
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 5: she later added citations to. Harvard tried to kind of

823
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 5: wiggle out of this and not punish her at all.

824
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 5: But when you have students saying, listen, I would be

825
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,280
Speaker 5: kicked out of Harvard and my career would be severely

826
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 5: affected if I had done all of these things and

827
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 5: the president, I'm to hear the president is keeping her

828
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 5: job with no punishments whatsoever. She just has to add citations.

829
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 5: I feel like that's where it became most untenable. On

830
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 5: the other hand, the Harvard Corporation, which is this sort

831
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 5: of secretive corporation that runs Harvard, has apparently been taking

832
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 5: the backlash from people like Bill Ackman really seriously, and

833
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 5: le Fong actually found an example. First, let's put B

834
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 5: four up on the screen. This is a least dephonic

835
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 5: taking a little bit of a victory lap before it's

836
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 5: a tweet from alistaphonics saying two down Harvard knows that

837
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,720
Speaker 5: this long overdue forced resignation of the anti Semitic plagists president,

838
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 5: it's just the beginning of what will be the greatest

839
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 5: scandal of any college or university in history. There there

840
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 5: we have the inflation of the term anti semitic, quite

841
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 5: an inflation of anti semitic. And let's put up this

842
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 5: Leefong tweet where he's responding to I believe it was

843
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 5: this is the next element, Bill Ackman saying, you know,

844
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 5: next up MI t to the point that Ryan made

845
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,399
Speaker 5: and Lee responded, Now they're going after you get another

846
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 5: university president mit Sally Cornblath, who also declined to censor

847
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 5: pro pouset Indian student speech. They're making it very clear

848
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 5: this is about enforcing pro Israel dogma, nothing else. So Ryan,

849
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 5: that's to the point you made that it's not stopping

850
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 5: with Clauding day. Right.

851
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 4: And obviously this wasn't about plagiarism, which is which then

852
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 4: makes a lot of her defenders look bad because because

853
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 4: everybody knows this is not about plagiarism, then when they

854
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 4: find these very solid examples of what everbody understands to

855
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,479
Speaker 4: be plagiarism, her defenders have to defend the plagiarism because

856
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 4: they're defending the metaphyte rather than that one. Rather than

857
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 4: to me, you just have to be like, look, it's

858
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 4: true that you would not have been This plagiarism would

859
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 4: not have been uncovered if not for the kind of

860
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 4: witch hunt that came out of the of that hearing,

861
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 4: Like the they came for you trying to get you fired,

862
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 4: and they found this pretext to get you fired.

863
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 3: However, the pretext is legitimate.

864
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 4: You're bust sorry, right, exactly too bad, Like you shouldn't

865
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 4: have plagiarized like and for there are a lot of

866
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 4: academics who are in academics to get to other positions

867
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 4: such as president of a university, and you have to

868
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 4: in order to get there, you have to get your PhD.

869
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,879
Speaker 4: And you have to be published in respectable journals. Those

870
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 4: are boxes that you have to check. And for those academics,

871
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 4: they're kind of just checking those boxes while they're working

872
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 4: the politics and getting And that's fine. If if you

873
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 4: want to be president of Harvard, that's that's a cool ambition.

874
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 4: I'm not saying everybody has to be like just you know,

875
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 4: in the stacks of books at the library, you could be.

876
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 5: But that's right, Harvard colors on your tie.

877
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,919
Speaker 4: I suggested Rashid Khalidi, author of one hundred Years World

878
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 4: Great Palestinian American Scholar, as the next president of Harvard.

879
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 4: Like if because Harvard originally said, you know what, we

880
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 4: probably would get rid of President Gay based on these

881
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 4: initial plagiarism allegations, but it will look like we're caving

882
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 4: to Bill Ackman and the rest of this mobs and RUFO.

883
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 4: We don't want to do that, so they stuck by

884
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 4: her for a while, but then the plagiers and allegations

885
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 4: are just too much. And so if they really want

886
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 4: to get back at Rufo and Acman Rashid Khalidi for

887
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 4: Harvard President doubled up further left.

888
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 5: Yeah. So this is when the New York Times they

889
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 5: say initially fact. Initially, faculty reaction was mixed, with some

890
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 5: saying the charges were serious and other calling the examples minor,

891
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 5: including some of the people that were plagiarized from professor's

892
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 5: Both camps questioned the seemingly ideological nature of the effort

893
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 5: to publicize them but clearly ideologically.

894
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

895
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 5: But as more allegation surfaced, faculty support for doctor Gay

896
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 5: began to erode. Particularly these questions arose about what procedures

897
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 5: the corporation, which normally has no involvement in scholar matters,

898
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 5: had used to investigate. So people were actually dissatisfied with

899
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 5: the nature of the investigations, of the investigation, which they

900
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 5: thought was sort of a charade and a rubber stamp.

901
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 5: And that is all sort of bubbling, and that's where

902
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 5: Claudine Gay, who by the way, this is the shortest

903
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 5: tenure for any president of Harvard since sixteen thirty six,

904
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 5: which is when Harvard was founded. She was the first

905
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 5: black president and the second woman ever to leave to

906
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 5: lead Harvard University. So you can see where Harvard was

907
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 5: reluctant to part ways with her, anticipating already charges of racism.

908
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 5: Claudine Gay's resignation letter is in no way as an

909
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 5: apology for the plagiarism. She defends her work. She does

910
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 5: not apologize for anything and says that she that this

911
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 5: is some people have said she blames racism for what

912
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 5: happened to her. I think she just kind of invokes it.

913
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,760
Speaker 4: Obviously, the initial the initial allegations of plagiarism were surfaced

914
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 4: by people who were upset that a black woman was

915
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 4: made president of Harvard.

916
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 5: You're talking about what allegedly.

917
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 4: Was on fair four chan threats or whatever. Now they

918
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 4: were surfaced because she's plagiarized, and clearly even able to.

919
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 3: Surface them because she was plagued.

920
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 4: But yes, she's not wrong that the initial people who

921
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 4: found them and then leaked them and surfaced them to

922
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 4: RUFO and the other other folks were animated by anger

923
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 4: at the fact that they they thought this black woman

924
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 4: didn't deserve to be president of Harvard like that she's

925
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 4: she's not, She's not wrong about that.

926
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 5: I think there's always if you're a black woman in

927
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 5: America and you're in a position of in a high

928
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 5: profile position, you're there's always going to be a racialized element.

929
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 4: But you also have to because because you know that,

930
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 4: you can't be that sloppy with your with your work. Clearly,

931
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 4: what she was doing is she's all of these areas

932
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 4: were like kind of it's the what what you would

933
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 4: call the b matter of your your articles where you're

934
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 4: just kind of summarizing, and it's so like, I'm glad

935
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 4: I'm not an academic because some of it's so boring,

936
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 4: Like you have to like summarize all of this prior

937
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 4: research that's done before you get to your own original research.

938
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 4: So your little job is to try is to take

939
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 4: other people's work, summarize it, cite it, and so that

940
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 4: people like have the context for what your original contribution

941
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 4: is coming afterwards. And so in those places where she's

942
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 4: summarizing what other people's work is, she's just copying and

943
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 4: pasting lines, dropping them in into her own work, changing

944
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 4: them a little bit, usually citing where she got it from,

945
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 4: but sometimes not citing.

946
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 5: Apparently forty plus times are in that right that ballpark.

947
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so so then you're busted. You just have

948
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 4: to you have to be more careful about how you

949
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 4: do it. The whole thing is copying because you're just

950
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 4: you're you're you're just reiterating what people have pre as

951
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 4: they said. And so I understand why some academics are like,

952
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 4: this is not serious, because this is just the grunt work.

953
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 4: This is this is the busy work of academia rather

954
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 4: than the original work that you know, we're supposed to

955
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 4: be focused on. But that's that's that's Look, they're the

956
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 4: ones that set this stupid framework up.

957
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 3: They live and buy it and die by it.

958
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 5: It reminds me of, in a weird way, a lot

959
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 5: of what happens on the on the right with Donald Trump,

960
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 5: which is that you are completely correct that the people

961
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 5: coming after Donald Trump for X, Y, and Z have

962
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 5: ulterior motives.

963
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 4: Yes, they're not really just the broken clock however, information right. Yeah,

964
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 4: So then the payoffs to porn stars absolutely.

965
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 5: Yes, and then still the broken clock is right twice

966
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 5: a day. And sometimes it's like he clearly is seriously

967
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:48,760
Speaker 5: being accused of doing something that is clearly wrong.

968
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 4: Al Capone did cheat on his taxes, Alon and that's

969
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 4: that is the moral of the story. Although we have

970
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 4: no choice because you can't, like honestly criminal enterprise with

971
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 4: the irs. So that was a little on He was

972
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:05,240
Speaker 4: in a catch twenty Yeah.

973
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 5: A highly anticipated set of names in one of Virginia

974
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 5: Giffray's cases. Actually this is a twenty fifteen case against

975
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 5: Gillian Maxwell. Virginia Jiffray is one of the most prominent,

976
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 5: if not the most prominent Epstein accusers and accusers against

977
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 5: Maxwell as well. There was a list of names that

978
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 5: was set to be made public, as many people actually

979
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 5: know just yesterday. What happened instead is that as everybody

980
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 5: was anticipating the release of these names that, according to

981
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 5: leaks to ABC News and other outlets, were going to

982
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 5: include dozens of mentions of Bill Clinton and potentially Donald

983
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:54,879
Speaker 5: Trump as well, that was postponed until January twenty second

984
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 5: because of a filing from one of the one of

985
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 5: the Jane was mentioned in the case, who would have

986
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 5: been or successfully said she would be in danger if

987
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 5: her name was released. Now the judge was going to

988
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 5: shield victims' names, but the list is going to be

989
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 5: kind of a mix of the accused and accusers, So

990
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 5: it was you know, there was a lot sort of

991
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 5: legally on the line, and whether we actually ever get

992
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 5: the list of names on January twenty second is an

993
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 5: open question. Obviously, much of this information that we were

994
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 5: set to get was probably already out in the public,

995
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 5: and in fact, reporting suggests that a lot of this

996
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 5: was already going to be known. Nevertheless, everyone myself included

997
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 5: probably you as well, Ryan, were kind of on tens

998
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,320
Speaker 5: or hooks waiting for this information to be released, because

999
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 5: when it comes to the case of Jeffrey Epstein and

1000
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 5: Galene Maxwell and all of their various connections to intelligence,

1001
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,879
Speaker 5: which really after of course, the many many victims who

1002
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 5: suffered over the years is first and foremost in this story,

1003
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:05,720
Speaker 5: especially from a political lens, this was a very useful

1004
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 5: bit of information, even if if much of it is

1005
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,879
Speaker 5: already known to that point. One of those people who

1006
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 5: was on tenterhooks was Aaron Rodgers, who went after Jimmy

1007
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 5: Kimmel so some Disney and Disney violence because Rogers was

1008
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 5: on Pat McAfee's ESPN show and called out Jimmy Kimmel.

1009
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 5: Jimmy Kimmel responded, I think we have the video that

1010
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,439
Speaker 5: we can roll of Rogers on the McAfee show. Watch.

1011
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 5: This had something to do with the Epstein list that

1012
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 5: came out.

1013
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 6: It feels like supposed to be coming. That's supposed to

1014
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 6: be coming out wine. I've been waiting my wine cellar

1015
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 6: first time.

1016
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people, including Jimmy Kimmel, are really

1017
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 2: hoping that doesn't.

1018
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 4: All right.

1019
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 7: Obviously, a clip from this particular program was run on

1020
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 7: Jimmy Kimmel's show whenever Aaron brought up the list and

1021
00:56:56,960 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 7: then Jimmy marked him for it, and Aaron has not

1022
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 7: forgot about that. But here we are sit right in

1023
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 7: front of that nice bottle of scotch. What do you say,

1024
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 7: I'm waiting to celebrate something.

1025
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll tell you what.

1026
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 2: If that list comes out, I definitely will be popping

1027
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 2: popping some sort of bottle.

1028
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 5: So that was from the middle of the day yesterday

1029
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 5: as everyone was waiting for the list to be released.

1030
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 5: It could have happened basically at any point yesterday and

1031
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 5: Rogers goes on ESPN and calls out Jimmy Kimmel also

1032
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 5: and say.

1033
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 3: He was Jimmy Kimmel was on it or yeah.

1034
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 5: So here's Jimmy Kimmel's response, invoking that great key and

1035
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 5: Peel sketch. Dear a asshole. For the record, I've not

1036
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 5: met flown with visitor, had any contact whatsoever with Epstein,

1037
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 5: Nor will you find my name on any quote list

1038
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 5: other than the clearly phony nonsense that soft brain wackos

1039
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 5: like yourself can't seem to distinguish from reality. Your reckless

1040
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 5: words put my family in danger. Keep it up and

1041
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 5: we will debate the facts further in court. I sort

1042
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 5: of think that Jimmy Kimmel just streisand affected the whole situation,

1043
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 5: like a throwaway comment from Aaron Rodgers on a televis podcast.

1044
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 5: Maybe could have let that one go unless it, like

1045
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 5: for some reason, started picking up a bunch of steam,

1046
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 5: and maybe it had. I don't know, but I probably

1047
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 5: would have let that one go. I don't know.

1048
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 4: It's it's hard to say because once in this world

1049
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 4: of you never know information being completely untethered from reality.

1050
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 4: You know, if if your name starts to circulate kind

1051
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 4: of in orbit with Epstein, there's just no way to

1052
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 4: pull it out.

1053
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 3: But your question is an issue.

1054
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:34,479
Speaker 4: When did Kimmel accidentally make him propel it into orbit

1055
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 4: rather than just ignoring it. He probably saw a bunch

1056
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 4: of stuff coming out of that Rogers podcast, which which

1057
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 4: then pushed him to make a public statement about it.

1058
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 5: He's right that it definitely puts his family in danger.

1059
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 5: There's no question about that.

1060
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and there's he would know if he's gonna be

1061
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 4: on the list.

1062
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 3: He says he's not.

1063
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 4: He's not like that's that's pretty pretty clear. So the

1064
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 4: list would be supposed to have one hundred and eighty

1065
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 4: seven names on it. That includes Epstein's employees, his co conspirators,

1066
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 4: some perpetrators, but also victims. And it was one of

1067
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 4: the victims who requested that the names be withheld for now.

1068
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 4: I'll be shocked if they ever actually release any of

1069
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 4: these names again. First person is allowed to petition to

1070
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 4: keep their name hidden. So I mean, I would love

1071
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 4: to have my faith restored in this process, but I

1072
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 4: don't understand how we're ever going to learn anything out

1073
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 4: of this.

1074
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 5: So yeah, for example, this is the ABC News reporting.

1075
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 5: They say the document stem from a twenty fifteen civil

1076
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 5: lawsuit centered on allegations that Epstein's one time paramore, Geeland Maxwell,

1077
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 5: facilitated the sexual abuse of Virginia Giffrey, an alleged trafficking victim.

1078
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 5: Jeffrey also accused Epstein and Maxwell of directing her to

1079
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 5: have sex with Prince Andrew and several other prominent men.

1080
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 5: Prince Andrew denied the allegations. Most of the prominent names

1081
00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 5: that appear in the documents are already associated in some

1082
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 5: way with Epstein four allegations of wrongdoing for having worked

1083
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 5: with him, flown on his planes, et cetera, et cetera.

1084
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 5: In some instances, the only appearances of the names are

1085
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 5: in potential witness list or in proposed terms for searches

1086
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 5: of electronic records. So ABC News at one point says

1087
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 5: something like, you know, Bill Clinton is expected to appear

1088
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 5: in the documents hundreds of these hundreds of sealed court

1089
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 5: filings from the twenty fifteen civil suit. But Bill Clinton

1090
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 5: is not, I think is The ABC News turn of

1091
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 5: phrase was like, he's not been accused of any wrongdoing.

1092
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 5: It's like, well, Virginia Jeffrey accuses Bill Clinton of being

1093
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 5: on the island of being a little Saint James. That's wrongdoing.

1094
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 5: That is wrongdoing in and of itself period.

1095
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 3: Wrong.

1096
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's doing wrong. Also, there's a picture of him

1097
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 5: getting the massage from the underage you remember that from

1098
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 5: the under the seemingly or the very young looking woman

1099
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 5: rubbers yeah, the shoulder rub yeah, which is just man.

1100
01:00:56,600 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 5: And in other news, Virginia Giffray has also Accusedwitz.

1101
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 3: Well, she's backed off that she well, she.

1102
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 5: Got, she got, she got slapped with a defamation suit

1103
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 5: from Dershowitz.

1104
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 4: Right, and so now she says that she believes that

1105
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 4: that was a case of mistaken identity and all suits

1106
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 4: between Dershowitz and Jiffrey have been have been dropped as

1107
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 4: a result of that, which has freed up Dershwitz for

1108
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 4: his next effort.

1109
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 5: Uh.

1110
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 3: There is reporting that.

1111
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 4: Israel wants to hire Alan Dershowitz to represent it at

1112
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 4: the basically at the International Criminal Court where it's being

1113
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 4: accused of carrying out genocide by South Africa, also now

1114
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:40,760
Speaker 4: joined by Malaysia. This is a this is an ongoing case.

1115
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 4: I think it would be the first one since uh Bosnia,

1116
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 4: although you know that that happens in real time or

1117
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 4: Rwanda one you know was so fast that the prosecutions

1118
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 4: didn't come until after genocide was over. In Bosnia, there

1119
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 4: were prosecutions brought during the conflict, which which did then

1120
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 4: kind of trigger intervention. So we'll see, we'll see where

1121
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 4: that goes. Dershwitz was asked for comment and said that

1122
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 4: he's not commenting, like he did not did not deny

1123
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 4: or confirm that he would be representing Israel at the

1124
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 4: criminal court.

1125
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 5: Right. And you know, again to Ryan's point, will these

1126
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 5: names ever be released? I don't know.

1127
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 3: I wouldn't put money on it, but you know.

1128
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 5: One of the big this is just.

1129
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 3: Like I'd love to be wrong.

1130
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 5: The same and we've got a couple of weeks to

1131
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 5: find out, but then there might be another delay. When

1132
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 5: you're dealing with hundreds of people, you're dealing with hundreds

1133
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 5: or hundreds of documents, and at least dozens of people

1134
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 5: you're dealing that means with dozens of legal teams in

1135
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:41,439
Speaker 5: all likelihoods. So there's kind of a never ending road

1136
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 5: ahead of us. And again we're talking about a civil

1137
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 5: case from twenty fifteen that has already seen a million

1138
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 5: twists and turns. I was just on the court document

1139
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 5: list and it's already like eight pages long if you

1140
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 5: go to the reports of all of the filings in

1141
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 5: the case. So There's a lot more to come on this,

1142
01:02:58,120 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 5: but you know, I always think with Epstein, the main

1143
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 5: thing to remember is that there is reporting. There is

1144
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 5: people who have said on the record that they believe

1145
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 5: he's tied to Masad. They believe that he has tied

1146
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 5: to either It's really intelligence or American intelligence in different ways.

1147
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 5: And you know, again victims first and foremost here, but

1148
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 5: from a political lens, that is is probably the most

1149
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 5: important thing to keep in mind, and we already have

1150
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 5: plenty of evidence to suggest that's exactly what was going on.

1151
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 4: Speaking of a sordid list of names, he hey, unusual

1152
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 4: Whales is out with its annual report on Congressional insider trading.

1153
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 3: If we can put up this this element unusually.

1154
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 4: His first report was back in twenty twenty, and it helped,

1155
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 4: it helped, it helped reinvigorate the debate over whether or

1156
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 4: not members of Congress should be able to trade, which

1157
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 4: includes you know, roughly one hundred percent of the public

1158
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 4: saying that they should not be able to trade.

1159
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, including many members of Congress who will say.

1160
01:03:56,520 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 4: Members of Congress coupled with the secret for us inside

1161
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 4: Congress to continue to allow the trading to continue. Nancy

1162
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 4: Pelosi said that she would that she would ban trading.

1163
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 4: Is what happened back in the twenty twenty two congressional

1164
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 4: cycle was, if you remember, Alexandra Cozi Cortes put forward

1165
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 4: what's known as a discharge petition, which is, you have

1166
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 4: a bill that leadership is not allowing to get to

1167
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 4: the floor. You cred discharge petition that if it gets

1168
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 4: two hundred and eighteen signatures, it is forced onto the floor.

1169
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 4: So she introduced a discharge petition. It started gaining momentum,

1170
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,920
Speaker 4: and Pelosi jumped out and said, I promised that we're

1171
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 4: going to do this by the end of the year.

1172
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 4: Pelosi's team then kind of interfered with the negotiations, blew

1173
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:48,200
Speaker 4: that up. One thing leads to another, when't you know,

1174
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 4: the congressional term expires without the ban ever getting enacted.

1175
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 4: Kevin McCarthy, while he was in the minority, promised that

1176
01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:00,919
Speaker 4: his number one goal, first thing he would do when

1177
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 4: he took over the House of Representatives was that he

1178
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 4: was going to use the Republican majority to ban congressional

1179
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 4: insider trading. Ken McCarthy, no longer with us as Speaker

1180
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 4: of the House, did not ban congressional trading, which leads

1181
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 4: us to I guess the third fourth Unusual Wales report

1182
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 4: on insider trading, it actually, you amusingly has Republicans slightly

1183
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,720
Speaker 4: underperforming the SNP over the year SMP had a good

1184
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 4: year good Old Biden, with Democrats overperforming the s and

1185
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 4: P rose at twenty five percent Democrats.

1186
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 3: So it's very hard to guess.

1187
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 4: The returns that members of Congress are generating. So he

1188
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 4: pegs Democrats at thirty one percent Republicans at eighteen percent.

1189
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,959
Speaker 4: Because you don't know exactly when they bought the stop,

1190
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 4: so therefore you you don't know if they've sold it

1191
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 4: when necessarily if they sold it by at this point

1192
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 4: he annualizes, He annualizes return So there's a lot of

1193
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 4: estimating going on to come up with these numbers. But

1194
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 4: what you can certainly find is suspiciously well time trades

1195
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 4: from a number of members of Congress.

1196
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 5: My favorite is when you match them to their committees,

1197
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 5: as Unusual Wales does here, which is the most outrageous

1198
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 5: part of all of us. And why again, I think

1199
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 5: this report from American hero Unusual Whales should be a

1200
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 5: huge national story because you just put the element up

1201
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 5: on the screen about um speeding Republicans. Republicans did pretty

1202
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 5: well on the Senate side, but this is about how

1203
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 5: they're trading when it comes to war Numerous members in Congress,

1204
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 5: unusual whales rights traded warstocks before the Israel Gaza pastin conflict.

1205
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 5: We present the above table that's the one on the

1206
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 5: screen without comment noting that spias up only ten percent

1207
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 5: since the conflict. Well, members who traded these warstocks have

1208
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 5: often outperformed. They said they saw something worse at the

1209
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 5: start of the Ukraine conflict. You should read that report too,

1210
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,160
Speaker 5: because it's equally a stomach training. But based on the

1211
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 5: portfolios of members who would benefit from war stocks is

1212
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 5: what you're looking at here on the screen. I added

1213
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:12,960
Speaker 5: our tweet for reference as our highlighting of the war

1214
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,600
Speaker 5: conflict was part of Kevin Hearn losing his run for

1215
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 5: US Congress speaker, and Tommy Taberville is a good example

1216
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 5: of this.

1217
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 4: I've definitely addicted to day trading.

1218
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 5: He's addicted to day trading and seriously addicted to day trading.

1219
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:30,840
Speaker 5: So he was he bought puts against Elon Musk's Tesla

1220
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty three. He was doing a lot of

1221
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 5: stuff with Tesla. Actually, then he disclosed two hundred and

1222
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 5: fifty thousand dollars in futures trading of wheat, corn, soy,

1223
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 5: and cattle in August of twenty twenty three. He sits

1224
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 5: on the Senate Committee for Agriculture and Nutrition and Forestry.

1225
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 5: There's also a farm bill that was being discussed and

1226
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 5: the can was kind of kicked. So another thing to

1227
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 5: keep in mind. He purchased forty five thousand dollars in Huma,

1228
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 5: so that's a penny stock in July, and he repeated

1229
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 5: that purchase right when the Ukraine War stard did and

1230
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:03,240
Speaker 5: that ended up being used in the Ukraine War for

1231
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 5: tissue implants. And he's on armed Services. So another thing

1232
01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 5: just to keep in mind is that, yes, these are annualized,

1233
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 5: and they're they're not perfect estimates, there's no question about it.

1234
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:18,240
Speaker 5: But at the same time, just in and of the self,

1235
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 5: in and of itself, the fact that they're trading, yeah,

1236
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 5: is it's outrageous and in.

1237
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:23,679
Speaker 3: The past unusual.

1238
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:28,360
Speaker 4: Wells and other reporters have found connections between whether or

1239
01:08:28,400 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 4: not a company lobbied a member of Congress and how

1240
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:34,559
Speaker 4: well they that member of Congress then trade the stock.

1241
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 4: Because what what often happens is that, let's say Huma

1242
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,760
Speaker 4: or whatever you've got, You've got a defense company that

1243
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 4: comes in and talks to a Member of Congress and says,

1244
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 4: here's you know, we would we you know, we need

1245
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 4: help with the Pentagon, you know, help us get through

1246
01:08:53,280 --> 01:08:55,479
Speaker 4: this process. Here's this thing that we make this really good.

1247
01:08:56,160 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 4: And in the meeting they will tell the Member of Congress, oh,

1248
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 4: by the way, in March, like we're going to get

1249
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:06,479
Speaker 4: through FDA Phase three, or we have a new kind

1250
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:10,919
Speaker 4: of microprocessor that's coming online. It's going to like be amazing.

1251
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:15,320
Speaker 4: And so the member of Congress then gets that information

1252
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 4: from that meeting might help them at the Pentagon, and

1253
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:22,600
Speaker 4: then also buys the stock, and then because they have

1254
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,040
Speaker 4: that access to that early information, they make tens or

1255
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 4: hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so it's a way

1256
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:31,679
Speaker 4: for a company to put cash into a brown paper

1257
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 4: bag and leave it on the desk. Without putting cash

1258
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:37,200
Speaker 4: in a brown paper bag and leaving it on the desk, Yeah,

1259
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 4: no money has changed hand. It's just a little hey, yeah,

1260
01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 4: we got an we got a contract coming through. It's

1261
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:44,759
Speaker 4: gonna be worth you know, one point five billion dollars

1262
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:47,840
Speaker 4: in two weeks. When that's announced, you don't even have

1263
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 4: to say, when that's announced, our stock is going to pop.

1264
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 4: The member of comments like which day two weeks you're

1265
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:53,760
Speaker 4: gonna announce that?

1266
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:54,680
Speaker 3: Good to know.

1267
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:58,160
Speaker 5: That's That's exactly why it has to all be blind

1268
01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:00,639
Speaker 5: or banned completely. I mean, there's just no other way

1269
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:03,760
Speaker 5: to do it. Marjor Tailler Green beat Rocanna last year

1270
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:07,439
Speaker 5: according to these estimates. And we've talked to We've pressed

1271
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:08,600
Speaker 5: Roe on this issue.

1272
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:13,600
Speaker 4: His his wife is wealthy and her advisor makes trades.

1273
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 3: Kills. Roe.

1274
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:19,519
Speaker 4: Sure, but it's it is difficult because if if it's

1275
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 4: your spouse, who's who's doing it? Because it makes you,

1276
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:26,360
Speaker 4: it makes it look like you're the one, yeah doing it.

1277
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:29,439
Speaker 4: But that's and Roe has been one of the most

1278
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 4: outspoken in favor of a band, a band that would

1279
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:32,719
Speaker 4: include spouses.

1280
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:36,599
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely so, because your spouse is at all those

1281
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:38,680
Speaker 5: dinners with you too. They're sitting at the tables with

1282
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 5: the lobbyists, traveling to the drunkets and all of that stuff.

1283
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:45,479
Speaker 5: So there's just no question and overhearing phone calls and

1284
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 5: all of those so there's just there's just no question

1285
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:49,599
Speaker 5: that it's and to your point about Row even.

1286
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:52,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, And the bigger point is it creates the appearance

1287
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:56,599
Speaker 4: of corruption or conflicts of interest to people in the public,

1288
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:58,880
Speaker 4: even even if there isn't any like, even if there's

1289
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 4: no connection whatsoever, people just like.

1290
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 5: Come on right well and unusual. Wales reminds us of

1291
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:08,720
Speaker 5: the stand Crenshaw quote where he says, some of the

1292
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 5: extentive this is the only way for Yeah, he says,

1293
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:13,680
Speaker 5: you have no way to better yourself as a congressman

1294
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:17,680
Speaker 5: other than trading stocks, which is something that's a kind

1295
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:20,120
Speaker 5: of popular refrain on Capitol Hill. Is that compared to

1296
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:22,799
Speaker 5: what they could be making in the lobbying sector, members

1297
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:25,840
Speaker 5: of Congress are just doing public service, making that one

1298
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:27,800
Speaker 5: hundred and eighty k or whatever it is now. I

1299
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:30,639
Speaker 5: think it's still around one hundred and eighty k. And

1300
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:34,320
Speaker 5: that's not enough money to have two houses, because you

1301
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 5: have to have one in your district, and you have

1302
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 5: to sleep somewhere in Washington, d C. And blah blah

1303
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,599
Speaker 5: blah blah blah. So of course we have to engage

1304
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:44,880
Speaker 5: in corrupt conduct to do that. What else do you

1305
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 5: expect us to do but be corrupt?

1306
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 4: Oh An update by the way to our last block

1307
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:54,760
Speaker 4: and a clarification. It's the International Court of Justice where

1308
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 4: South Africa has brought the charges against Israel, not not

1309
01:11:58,360 --> 01:11:59,639
Speaker 4: the International Criminal Court.

1310
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:02,639
Speaker 5: The one that dershwitoz is right, the one that maybe

1311
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:03,920
Speaker 5: or maybe not defending it right.

1312
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 4: And Turkey has now joined and is backing the South

1313
01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:11,880
Speaker 4: African So you now have a NATO member taking Israel

1314
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:13,639
Speaker 4: to the International Court of Justice.

1315
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, for genocide.

1316
01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 5: Yeah. Well the other thing I think, just to close

1317
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:22,679
Speaker 5: a loop on the unusual whales segment, congresspeed the market overall,

1318
01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:25,639
Speaker 5: and of one hundred trading members, thirty three percent beat

1319
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:30,240
Speaker 5: the market with their portfolios one unusual thing unusual whales,

1320
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:33,679
Speaker 5: unusual thing that unusual Wales discovers. They write. A general

1321
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:35,559
Speaker 5: rule I found is that if Congress members are up

1322
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:38,560
Speaker 5: for re election in twenty twenty four, then they've severely

1323
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 5: decreased and or stopped trading their activity in the last

1324
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:46,000
Speaker 5: year and points to w Washman, Schultz, Nancy Pelosi and

1325
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:49,040
Speaker 5: all of her fun NVIDIA activity. So the number of

1326
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 5: trading is down, the number of members disclosing trades is down,

1327
01:12:52,479 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 5: but the values of those transactions are comparable the years

1328
01:12:55,479 --> 01:12:59,160
Speaker 5: pass says unusual whales. So they've been selling more stocks

1329
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 5: than buying. But they've also been selling more government securities

1330
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:05,479
Speaker 5: than in previous years, and they were buying more corporate

1331
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:08,599
Speaker 5: securities in the last two years as well. So important

1332
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:11,240
Speaker 5: patterns to look out for in the years ahead. But

1333
01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:13,800
Speaker 5: hopefully we can just all agree to ban this shit

1334
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 5: in the years ahead, so we don't even have to

1335
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:18,400
Speaker 5: see this put unusual wheels out of business guys.

1336
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:21,400
Speaker 4: Maybe nice, Yeah, that'll be nice.

1337
01:13:21,120 --> 01:13:24,280
Speaker 5: All right, Ryan. Paul Bigger is our guest up next.

1338
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 5: You explained a little bit earlier in the show about

1339
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 5: why we're talking to Paul because of this viral blog

1340
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:32,840
Speaker 5: that he wrote, some of which was directed at his

1341
01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:35,320
Speaker 5: own people he's in business with. So he's going to

1342
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 5: join us on the show next.

1343
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, stick around for that.

1344
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 4: We're now joined by Paul Bigger, who's the founder of

1345
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:46,680
Speaker 4: Circle CI as well as Dark Lang. Paul's also the

1346
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:49,479
Speaker 4: author of a viral blog post put up on December

1347
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:52,479
Speaker 4: fourteenth called I Can't Sleep. Paul, thanks so much for

1348
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:54,879
Speaker 4: joining us here on Counterpoints.

1349
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:57,040
Speaker 6: And thank you so much for having me and.

1350
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,240
Speaker 4: So I wanted to read people a little bit of

1351
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 4: your posts. They have some context for this if we

1352
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 4: can put up this first element you write. At one

1353
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 4: point in this really harrowing essay, you write, I don't

1354
01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:09,519
Speaker 4: know what to do, but I know these are not

1355
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:13,639
Speaker 4: my people who can work with people whitewashing genocide. Are

1356
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:16,080
Speaker 4: we supposed to pretend it's business as usual as we

1357
01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:21,080
Speaker 4: send our friends intros frolic at conferences, discuss monetization strategy

1358
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:25,320
Speaker 4: to Ed sim Erica Brescia, Michael Deering, and especially Matt Aco.

1359
01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:26,120
Speaker 3: We're done.

1360
01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:28,639
Speaker 4: I'll never pitch you again, never ask for help, never

1361
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 4: send intros or recommend you. I'm done with Bold Start

1362
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:35,880
Speaker 4: and DCVC and Harrison Metal and Redpoint. I'm also done

1363
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:39,519
Speaker 4: with Bessemer and Sequoia and First Round. I'm ashamed that

1364
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:41,519
Speaker 4: these are some of my biggest supporters over the years,

1365
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:44,320
Speaker 4: that people who invested in me twice, the people who helped,

1366
01:14:44,320 --> 01:14:48,120
Speaker 4: who advised I cannot work with the people whitewashing killing

1367
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:50,639
Speaker 4: that people know it's happening and who cover for it.

1368
01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:55,040
Speaker 4: And so, Paul, can you give us a little bit

1369
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 4: of kind of context about you know, first of all,

1370
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 4: how you came to this decision to kind of write

1371
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:04,519
Speaker 4: this post, and what what is what is dark line?

1372
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:07,400
Speaker 4: What is a circle CI can contextualized situate yourself in

1373
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:09,280
Speaker 4: the in the tech world for our audience.

1374
01:15:09,479 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 6: Sure, so.

1375
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:17,120
Speaker 1: The circle CI is is what they call in tech

1376
01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:19,559
Speaker 1: a unicorn, right, it's it's a it's a company that's

1377
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:20,599
Speaker 1: worth a billion dollars.

1378
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:22,200
Speaker 6: And there's there's a lot of these.

1379
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:25,360
Speaker 1: Now there's there's about a thousand of them, and we

1380
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:30,040
Speaker 1: were circle CI was sort of early in the in

1381
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:32,800
Speaker 1: the most recent tech boom, the one that went from

1382
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 1: about twenty ten twenty twenty one, and was one of

1383
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:39,800
Speaker 1: the one of the large companies in a particular space

1384
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:45,920
Speaker 1: called continuous integration, which is sort of developer workflow, and

1385
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:49,240
Speaker 1: so that is you know what, once you found one

1386
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:52,879
Speaker 1: of these, you're you have a certain cache in the industry,

1387
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:55,760
Speaker 1: and you find it easier to raise the next round.

1388
01:15:57,200 --> 01:15:59,760
Speaker 6: And next fundraising round.

1389
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:02,559
Speaker 1: You know, you know a lot of investors, You've built

1390
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:04,559
Speaker 1: up your network, you're sort of you're sort of in

1391
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:08,800
Speaker 1: a little bit and so that that's sort of like

1392
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 1: my position in the industry. It's not you know, I'm

1393
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:15,559
Speaker 1: not like Brian Chesky or Mark Zuckerberg or anything like that.

1394
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:18,600
Speaker 1: I'm like two tiers down, but I'm also not the

1395
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:21,280
Speaker 1: bottom tier or not not the people who are just

1396
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:26,720
Speaker 1: sort of joining the industry. And so the the context

1397
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:30,320
Speaker 1: for writing the blog post was simply like, how can

1398
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:35,080
Speaker 1: we do business as usual during this thing that's going on?

1399
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 1: During during the war on the people of Gaza, you know,

1400
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:43,080
Speaker 1: they're they're At the time, the you know, South Africa

1401
01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:45,360
Speaker 1: had not invoked the Genocide Convention, but I think it

1402
01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:48,240
Speaker 1: was clear to anyone who was paying attention that that

1403
01:16:48,320 --> 01:16:51,799
Speaker 1: there was a genocide going on. And I kept seeing

1404
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:56,680
Speaker 1: pro Israel posts, and I kept seeing people who were

1405
01:16:56,720 --> 01:16:59,479
Speaker 1: saying basically Israel had the right to do anything it liked,

1406
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 1: or in a couple of cases, people focusing on what

1407
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:09,080
Speaker 1: I considered to be what I still consider to be

1408
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 1: pro Israeli propaganda. So for example, the focus on Harvard,

1409
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:18,679
Speaker 1: on Claudine Gay, on the anti Semitism at universities, those

1410
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:23,160
Speaker 1: are all look away from the genocide that's happening in Gaza.

1411
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:27,479
Speaker 1: And the reason I wrote the post is just literally

1412
01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:31,040
Speaker 1: I couldn't sleep, Like I was seeing these images every

1413
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:33,439
Speaker 1: day as many of us are, and just being like,

1414
01:17:34,479 --> 01:17:38,439
Speaker 1: how can we do work when this thing is happening?

1415
01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:42,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, and there's something really interesting here you write, I

1416
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:44,559
Speaker 5: wasn't ready to see that my friends are Brown trips,

1417
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 5: which you sort of just mentioned, that they actively true

1418
01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:49,320
Speaker 5: on the genocide, the anger, the desire, the need even

1419
01:17:49,360 --> 01:17:52,479
Speaker 5: for retribution against innocent civilians. I wasn't ready for my

1420
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:56,200
Speaker 5: friends being campguards, party officials, propagandists. And one thing from

1421
01:17:56,240 --> 01:18:00,280
Speaker 5: the right that's interesting about that is I've basically seen

1422
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:04,439
Speaker 5: people on the right similarly write that about people that

1423
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:08,320
Speaker 5: they would consider pro Palestinian. And I wanted to ask you, Paul,

1424
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:13,559
Speaker 5: maybe it's to talk a little bit about how the

1425
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:18,680
Speaker 5: polarization on this issue has affected tech, and maybe some

1426
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 5: of the response that you've gotten since this letter has

1427
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:24,519
Speaker 5: gone this post has gone viral speaks to that because

1428
01:18:24,520 --> 01:18:29,000
Speaker 5: they're they're really this is really a battle ideologically in

1429
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 5: so many different sectors, but it's particularly hit tech this time.

1430
01:18:33,479 --> 01:18:34,599
Speaker 6: It has hit tech.

1431
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:37,360
Speaker 1: I think what we have is that a lot of

1432
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:41,920
Speaker 1: the top of tech, so investors, they're they're much more

1433
01:18:41,960 --> 01:18:44,680
Speaker 1: right wing, they're much wealthier, and a lot of the

1434
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:48,200
Speaker 1: bottom of tech is is much more left wing, much

1435
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:51,120
Speaker 1: more liberal. And the center tech is the sort of

1436
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:55,720
Speaker 1: the founders at the start of their career. They are

1437
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:58,439
Speaker 1: typically I would say that the junior founders are more

1438
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:00,439
Speaker 1: left wing and the senior funders are more right wing

1439
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:03,440
Speaker 1: as they get sort of more pulled into the institution

1440
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:06,320
Speaker 1: that is Silicon Valley.

1441
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 6: So it is it is an ideological thing.

1442
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:12,040
Speaker 1: And one of the funny things that keeps coming up

1443
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:15,799
Speaker 1: is whenever you have Irish people in tech, they are

1444
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:19,080
Speaker 1: they are predominantly left or they are predominantly on the

1445
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:21,160
Speaker 1: side of Palestine. And the reason for that, of course,

1446
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:23,960
Speaker 1: is that we we were a colony, we were an

1447
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:28,360
Speaker 1: oppressed people, and we recognize what we see in Palestine.

1448
01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:31,280
Speaker 6: And I think that a lot of the reason.

1449
01:19:31,360 --> 01:19:35,559
Speaker 1: That that there's so much support for Israel in tech

1450
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:39,360
Speaker 1: is that Silicon Valley was, you know, originally it was

1451
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:42,960
Speaker 1: almost a dartback creation, right. There's a lot of alignment

1452
01:19:43,080 --> 01:19:48,560
Speaker 1: with the defense industry, with sort of with US interests.

1453
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:51,760
Speaker 1: You know, tech is very centered in the US and

1454
01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:54,040
Speaker 1: a lot of the people who are who are senior

1455
01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:57,200
Speaker 1: in tech are you know, part of the status quo

1456
01:19:57,320 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 1: and part of and this is even before we get

1457
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:04,080
Speaker 1: into the the amount of cross investment with Israel and

1458
01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:07,559
Speaker 1: a lot of people making you know, making money by

1459
01:20:07,920 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 1: doing so. So there's a there's there's definitely a large

1460
01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:19,120
Speaker 1: ideological component to this. The I I suppose that that

1461
01:20:20,439 --> 01:20:25,519
Speaker 1: I realized that, but I was surprised at how much

1462
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:31,760
Speaker 1: ideology could go and enable the sort of extremist I mean,

1463
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:33,479
Speaker 1: I'm just going to call it a genocide because that's

1464
01:20:33,479 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: what it is that's being enabled by Israel.

1465
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 6: You would think that.

1466
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:41,080
Speaker 1: There were that there were lines that would never be crossed,

1467
01:20:41,080 --> 01:20:43,320
Speaker 1: and I think that's kind of what surprised me.

1468
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:47,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, and some of the comments you you flagged as

1469
01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:50,040
Speaker 4: kind of triggering the post when you mentioned matt Aco,

1470
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:53,559
Speaker 4: you linked to one of his tweets where he's referring

1471
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:56,680
Speaker 4: to Palestinians and he says there's not a lot of

1472
01:20:56,720 --> 01:21:00,120
Speaker 4: innocence of the two million routinely set a huge majority

1473
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:03,439
Speaker 4: share one hundred percent of the sub human goals of

1474
01:21:03,479 --> 01:21:09,840
Speaker 4: hamas he puts free Palestine in quotes, because the cruelty

1475
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:12,680
Speaker 4: they delight in. The cruelty, the sub human savagery is

1476
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:15,920
Speaker 4: intrinsic to the culture and the movement really kind of

1477
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:20,960
Speaker 4: just literally dehumanizing language coming from you know, somebody that

1478
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:22,519
Speaker 4: you had worked for, So I can imagine where this

1479
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:23,080
Speaker 4: came from.

1480
01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:24,720
Speaker 3: But I'm curious, you.

1481
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:29,280
Speaker 4: Know, how how brutal was this response from people you criticized,

1482
01:21:29,439 --> 01:21:32,080
Speaker 4: and what else did you hear in the wake of this?

1483
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:34,559
Speaker 3: In the two now almost two and a half weeks

1484
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 3: since this.

1485
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:38,599
Speaker 1: There's been a handful of people who I've seen make

1486
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:43,919
Speaker 1: similar comments to to Madoca, the sort of dehumanizing comments,

1487
01:21:44,040 --> 01:21:46,360
Speaker 1: the sort of the sort of thing really people should

1488
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:49,360
Speaker 1: regardless of what side you're on, no one should ever

1489
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 1: say about about another human being. The tal Broda, it's

1490
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:58,439
Speaker 1: not someone I know, but it's someone who is pretty

1491
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:03,080
Speaker 1: senior at open Ai and someone who who was forced

1492
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:07,439
Speaker 1: to apologize but wasn't actually removed from his job despite

1493
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:10,479
Speaker 1: being a very senior executive at open Ai, which is

1494
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:13,240
Speaker 1: one of the really important companies in tech right now.

1495
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:15,800
Speaker 6: He he had I don't have it, have a tan.

1496
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:19,600
Speaker 1: But extremely dehumanizing, in fact, worse worse than Madocco, I

1497
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:22,760
Speaker 1: would say. Another one was Andrea Scale, who is a

1498
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:24,960
Speaker 1: tech CEO, and he was well known for being the

1499
01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:29,840
Speaker 1: CTO of Mozilla, and he said equally dehumanizing stuff weeks ago,

1500
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:32,120
Speaker 1: and I challenged him on it on Twitter before he

1501
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:36,400
Speaker 1: made his account private. The I I would say that

1502
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:41,600
Speaker 1: that the majority of what is out there is what

1503
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:45,160
Speaker 1: I would term pro Israeli propaganda. It is taking the

1504
01:22:45,240 --> 01:22:51,479
Speaker 1: talking points that are coming out from these uh you know,

1505
01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:55,559
Speaker 1: often from from Israel, sometimes from the IDF. There was

1506
01:22:55,600 --> 01:23:02,720
Speaker 1: this phenomenal discussion sub stack by by Lee Fang and

1507
01:23:02,800 --> 01:23:07,960
Speaker 1: Jack Poulson are who are independent journalists who were who

1508
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:12,160
Speaker 1: chronicled the story of how Pati Cosgrave, who's the CEO

1509
01:23:12,160 --> 01:23:14,479
Speaker 1: of website, and how he got taken down, how he

1510
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:17,000
Speaker 1: got fired. And so you start to see the same

1511
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:21,479
Speaker 1: strategies and the same talking points coming from many, many

1512
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:24,799
Speaker 1: different investors. All of a sudden, Harvard was a really

1513
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:28,400
Speaker 1: really important thing to talk about and anti Semitism in universities,

1514
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:32,280
Speaker 1: that was the real discussion that everyone wants to talk about.

1515
01:23:32,320 --> 01:23:34,840
Speaker 1: And then you see that spread throughout the New York Times.

1516
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 1: You see Clouding Gay eventually resigned, I think yesterday. You know,

1517
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:43,040
Speaker 1: this is all part of a you know, all the

1518
01:23:43,040 --> 01:23:47,160
Speaker 1: same people with the same ideology controlling the conversation and

1519
01:23:47,200 --> 01:23:50,840
Speaker 1: making it impossible to say, well, there's thirty thousand people

1520
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:55,000
Speaker 1: that have been killed by Israel, by Israeli soldiers dropping

1521
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:59,000
Speaker 1: bombs on apartments. You know, it's like, how is it

1522
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:01,680
Speaker 1: that on the one hand, we're talking about that, and

1523
01:24:01,720 --> 01:24:04,439
Speaker 1: on the other hand, you know, everyone's like tweeting about like.

1524
01:24:04,360 --> 01:24:05,760
Speaker 6: Oh, from the River to the Sea. It's such a

1525
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:07,600
Speaker 6: such a triggering term for me, you know.

1526
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:12,160
Speaker 4: And so since then, you've launched tech for Palestine, Like

1527
01:24:12,240 --> 01:24:13,799
Speaker 4: how did how did that come together?

1528
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:16,840
Speaker 6: So basically.

1529
01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:20,920
Speaker 1: After after I posted that blog post, everyone reached out

1530
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:24,360
Speaker 1: to me, and I just started taking meetings and just

1531
01:24:24,439 --> 01:24:26,960
Speaker 1: talking to people and seeing, you know, I had no

1532
01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:30,240
Speaker 1: real plans for it. And what what happened was I

1533
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:33,640
Speaker 1: started connecting people together and eventually there became a discord,

1534
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:38,360
Speaker 1: and eventually we launched publicly yesterday tech for Palestine dot

1535
01:24:38,439 --> 01:24:41,320
Speaker 1: org and we had, you know, another another three hundred

1536
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:43,880
Speaker 1: people join our discord from the from the original sort

1537
01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:46,840
Speaker 1: of tight group of about forty people. And basically, there's

1538
01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:49,840
Speaker 1: an awful awful lot of people in tech who are

1539
01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:52,720
Speaker 1: looking to make a difference, who are looking to you know,

1540
01:24:52,960 --> 01:24:55,320
Speaker 1: who see the genocide that's happening and say this, this

1541
01:24:55,439 --> 01:24:58,000
Speaker 1: is not okay, and who want to make a difference.

1542
01:24:58,040 --> 01:25:03,880
Speaker 1: And we're trying to help organize that, connect engineers and

1543
01:25:04,160 --> 01:25:07,200
Speaker 1: others to people who are who are doing projects and

1544
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:10,760
Speaker 1: run projects ourselves and all of them are about changing

1545
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:14,040
Speaker 1: the ability to speak up about Palestine. It has been

1546
01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:16,479
Speaker 1: you as we've seen, it has been okay for people

1547
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 1: to say massively dehumanizing things so long as there as

1548
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:24,080
Speaker 1: so long as they're pro Israel. Obviously we don't want

1549
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:28,720
Speaker 1: and we don't see dehumanizing things being said by the

1550
01:25:28,720 --> 01:25:31,680
Speaker 1: supporters of Palestine, but we want to enable people to

1551
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:35,439
Speaker 1: say genocide is not okay. You know, having normal lives

1552
01:25:35,479 --> 01:25:38,040
Speaker 1: without having bombs dropped on you is a future that

1553
01:25:38,080 --> 01:25:42,439
Speaker 1: we want to see for Palestine and advocate for the

1554
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:46,639
Speaker 1: end of what has been an incredibly long Israeli oppression

1555
01:25:47,200 --> 01:25:48,320
Speaker 1: of the Palestinian people.

1556
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:51,679
Speaker 5: You mentioned open Ai earlier, and it reminded me actually

1557
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:54,720
Speaker 5: of Elon Musk's involvement both in Ukraine and obviously he

1558
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 5: famously went over to Israel I think it was just

1559
01:25:57,240 --> 01:26:00,320
Speaker 5: about a month ago, and so I'm curious us to

1560
01:26:00,439 --> 01:26:04,920
Speaker 5: from that thirty thousand foot view. These are people that

1561
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:06,720
Speaker 5: the people that you call out, the people that you

1562
01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:11,280
Speaker 5: work around, with enormous power and in some cases unregulated

1563
01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:15,720
Speaker 5: power at their fingertips, and this whole experience, I'm just

1564
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:17,760
Speaker 5: curious as to what it tells you, maybe about the

1565
01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:21,840
Speaker 5: culture of tech and how ideology and power are kind

1566
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:26,880
Speaker 5: of mingling in one industry with potentially devastating consequences, with

1567
01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:31,759
Speaker 5: potentially wonderful consequences, but largely in a way that makes

1568
01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:35,200
Speaker 5: average people feel powerless in so many different cases.

1569
01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:41,200
Speaker 1: There has long been this idea in tech that we

1570
01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:43,960
Speaker 1: are the people who know better than everyone else. I

1571
01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:47,840
Speaker 1: would say that the large shift in tech from by

1572
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:50,360
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven onwards is that like the doers

1573
01:26:50,400 --> 01:26:53,280
Speaker 1: the engineers, we're the people who know better than everyone else,

1574
01:26:53,640 --> 01:26:58,000
Speaker 1: and so we we should get to control that and

1575
01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:03,720
Speaker 1: some Moltman, CEO of open Ai, was was a when

1576
01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:06,519
Speaker 1: he was leader of of y Combinator, which is one

1577
01:27:06,520 --> 01:27:10,920
Speaker 1: of the most influential sort of creator of startups in

1578
01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:15,360
Speaker 1: the industry. He he made clear that, oh, the press

1579
01:27:15,360 --> 01:27:18,720
Speaker 1: has turned on Silicon Valley. The press has turned against us.

1580
01:27:18,960 --> 01:27:21,840
Speaker 1: We have to ignore what is being said in you know,

1581
01:27:21,920 --> 01:27:24,200
Speaker 1: in the population at large, and just focus on what

1582
01:27:24,200 --> 01:27:27,040
Speaker 1: we're doing because we know better. You see similar things

1583
01:27:27,080 --> 01:27:31,880
Speaker 1: in Facebook. You know, Facebook is is massively powerful, and

1584
01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:36,840
Speaker 1: they were led by this internal idea that engagement and

1585
01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:40,519
Speaker 1: making money those are the things that that are are

1586
01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:44,120
Speaker 1: good for us, and that led to genocide and me

1587
01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:47,559
Speaker 1: and mar it led, of course to to the massive

1588
01:27:47,680 --> 01:27:53,160
Speaker 1: disinformation campaigns of the last couple of US elections. So tech, yes,

1589
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:55,559
Speaker 1: it is. It is supremely powerful. It is it is

1590
01:27:55,800 --> 01:28:00,759
Speaker 1: massively unregulated. And now as we're we're essentially being ushered

1591
01:28:00,840 --> 01:28:04,120
Speaker 1: into this new AI era, we see that people at

1592
01:28:04,160 --> 01:28:08,760
Speaker 1: the top of the most important AI organization are are

1593
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:13,280
Speaker 1: incredibly biased. And the bias is one of the problems

1594
01:28:13,280 --> 01:28:16,960
Speaker 1: that we are going to face throughout this this AI

1595
01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:21,559
Speaker 1: era because the the way that this data is trained,

1596
01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:25,000
Speaker 1: how people look at training these AI models, you know,

1597
01:28:25,040 --> 01:28:28,040
Speaker 1: the the biases of the people who collect and put

1598
01:28:28,080 --> 01:28:31,080
Speaker 1: together the data is reflected in the data, and that

1599
01:28:31,080 --> 01:28:33,680
Speaker 1: that is going to permeate into everything and already has.

1600
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:38,200
Speaker 1: We're already seeing AI being used to target civilians in

1601
01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:40,320
Speaker 1: in Palestine, in Gaza, for example.

1602
01:28:41,280 --> 01:28:42,200
Speaker 5: We're in China. Yeah.

1603
01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:42,479
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1604
01:28:42,560 --> 01:28:45,240
Speaker 4: And so you talked about how your first company became

1605
01:28:45,280 --> 01:28:50,000
Speaker 4: a unicorn. Did that kind of billion dollar valuation enable

1606
01:28:50,040 --> 01:28:53,240
Speaker 4: what you were able to do or how how difficult

1607
01:28:53,360 --> 01:28:56,719
Speaker 4: has your has your new company's financial situation been made

1608
01:28:57,160 --> 01:28:59,639
Speaker 4: by your decision to speak out.

1609
01:29:01,120 --> 01:29:02,800
Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons that I spoke at

1610
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:07,599
Speaker 1: is that I recognized I was in probably the best

1611
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:11,559
Speaker 1: position from a risk perspective. So as an entrepreneur, I'm

1612
01:29:11,560 --> 01:29:15,639
Speaker 1: pretty risk averse anyway, sorry, pretty risk tolerant, and anyway,

1613
01:29:15,640 --> 01:29:16,720
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of fine.

1614
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:17,720
Speaker 6: It's it's what we do.

1615
01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:20,840
Speaker 1: But also because I had cashed out a bit of

1616
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:24,160
Speaker 1: my old company because I didn't have a you know,

1617
01:29:24,200 --> 01:29:28,679
Speaker 1: a financial risk really and also my my new company,

1618
01:29:28,800 --> 01:29:30,840
Speaker 1: dark Lane, I say, it's new, it's seven years old,

1619
01:29:32,120 --> 01:29:35,479
Speaker 1: it's not doing that well. And so our next round

1620
01:29:35,640 --> 01:29:37,840
Speaker 1: of funding would have been an angel round anyway, it

1621
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:40,800
Speaker 1: would have been from you know, a bunch of hot,

1622
01:29:41,280 --> 01:29:44,240
Speaker 1: mid to high net worth individuals. It wouldn't have been

1623
01:29:44,280 --> 01:29:47,280
Speaker 1: talking to the same investors. And we had a plan

1624
01:29:47,520 --> 01:29:50,679
Speaker 1: to to be cash for positive and to get off

1625
01:29:50,760 --> 01:29:53,320
Speaker 1: the VC track a little bit. Anyway, So it was,

1626
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:56,640
Speaker 1: you know, I was pretty well positioned for it. And

1627
01:29:56,680 --> 01:30:02,640
Speaker 1: so it was something where where I realized that I

1628
01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:05,680
Speaker 1: had less to fear than most people. And when I

1629
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:08,000
Speaker 1: posted and everyone reached out to me, and tons of

1630
01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:11,280
Speaker 1: people in tech, lots of founders were saying, we can't

1631
01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:14,400
Speaker 1: say anything. You know, these are our investors, these are

1632
01:30:14,439 --> 01:30:16,439
Speaker 1: the people we're afraid to speak out against.

1633
01:30:17,080 --> 01:30:18,599
Speaker 6: Even though even though we know it's right.

1634
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:22,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's clear that that I was one

1635
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:26,320
Speaker 1: of the few people who who had that risk profile,

1636
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:29,799
Speaker 1: and so it made it easier to to take the stands.

1637
01:30:30,680 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 4: It's interesting you say, because I kind of feel the

1638
01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:36,719
Speaker 4: same way sometimes, not financially speaking, but the news organization

1639
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:39,080
Speaker 4: that where I work for, the Intercept, gives us like

1640
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:42,400
Speaker 4: a total freedom to, you know, to say whatever we

1641
01:30:42,439 --> 01:30:46,120
Speaker 4: want about a particular issue, which most journalists don't have.

1642
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:48,800
Speaker 4: So in some ways I feel kind of obligated to

1643
01:30:48,840 --> 01:30:52,439
Speaker 4: take that opportunity because because I have less less risk

1644
01:30:52,560 --> 01:30:54,960
Speaker 4: than others do. It kind of seems like, so I

1645
01:30:55,560 --> 01:30:59,200
Speaker 4: understand the situation. It doesn't make it doesn't It doesn't

1646
01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:04,000
Speaker 4: make it less nerve wracking or difficult, but to not

1647
01:31:04,120 --> 01:31:06,599
Speaker 4: have the same kind of immediate consequences makes it more

1648
01:31:06,720 --> 01:31:07,599
Speaker 4: makes it more doable.

1649
01:31:09,080 --> 01:31:10,599
Speaker 3: But anyway, Paul, you know, go ahead, and.

1650
01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:13,080
Speaker 1: I know it's it's it's it's funny you mentioned that

1651
01:31:13,160 --> 01:31:15,080
Speaker 1: I gotta I got a piece published a bit a

1652
01:31:15,080 --> 01:31:19,639
Speaker 1: better new thing tech for Palestine published in tech Runch yesterday,

1653
01:31:19,640 --> 01:31:23,280
Speaker 1: which is, you know, having a pro Palestine piece in

1654
01:31:23,360 --> 01:31:27,960
Speaker 1: a tech publication is like rare but at the same time,

1655
01:31:28,439 --> 01:31:31,479
Speaker 1: you know, I looked through it and it was you know,

1656
01:31:31,520 --> 01:31:36,680
Speaker 1: it was edited very carefully to be Ah. Yeah, I

1657
01:31:36,680 --> 01:31:38,479
Speaker 1: guess what I'm saying is is that that one can

1658
01:31:38,520 --> 01:31:41,840
Speaker 1: perceive the amunds of censorship at news organization like you're saying.

1659
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:45,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, no doubt well, Paul, thanks so much for joining us,

1660
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:46,639
Speaker 4: really appreciate it.

1661
01:31:47,320 --> 01:31:48,320
Speaker 6: Thank you so much having me.

1662
01:31:48,400 --> 01:31:50,280
Speaker 4: All right, that'll do it for us this week.

1663
01:31:50,560 --> 01:31:52,200
Speaker 5: Yeah. And you know, Ryan, that's actually not for me.

1664
01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:53,000
Speaker 3: I'll be back tomorrow.

1665
01:31:53,040 --> 01:31:54,880
Speaker 5: That's right, you will be back with Crystal, So you're

1666
01:31:54,880 --> 01:31:58,800
Speaker 5: going to have just ab show. Yeah, so make sure

1667
01:31:58,800 --> 01:32:03,400
Speaker 5: that you macrodos. You want Ryan and Crystal uh talking

1668
01:32:03,400 --> 01:32:08,759
Speaker 5: about I don't know, presumably Israel taxes, yeah, or taxes.

1669
01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:09,240
Speaker 4: Yeah. You know.

1670
01:32:09,320 --> 01:32:11,680
Speaker 5: You said something interesting there though, which is reminds me

1671
01:32:11,920 --> 01:32:15,559
Speaker 5: also that Crystal and Saga give us really the freedom

1672
01:32:15,640 --> 01:32:16,280
Speaker 5: to that's true.

1673
01:32:16,720 --> 01:32:20,320
Speaker 3: They certainly have never suggested that we restrict anything.

1674
01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:20,599
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1675
01:32:20,720 --> 01:32:25,320
Speaker 5: No, well, obviously sometimes they force us at you know,

1676
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:32,000
Speaker 5: at risk of great force to talk about UFOs, But no,

1677
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:36,840
Speaker 5: we were so we're so grateful for that here. And uh,

1678
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:39,320
Speaker 5: you know, when I realized I mentioned China in that

1679
01:32:39,439 --> 01:32:42,400
Speaker 5: last interview segment. But AI is being used here in

1680
01:32:42,400 --> 01:32:45,599
Speaker 5: the United States to target civilians as well. It's we're

1681
01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:48,879
Speaker 5: seeing that deployed all of the world, and so we'll

1682
01:32:48,960 --> 01:32:50,639
Speaker 5: certainly be covering those things.

1683
01:32:50,760 --> 01:32:52,799
Speaker 4: And to segue into that, it really is the audience

1684
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:56,519
Speaker 4: that makes it possible. So therefore, go to Breakingpoints dot com.

1685
01:32:56,760 --> 01:33:00,000
Speaker 4: Become a premium subscriber. Tell me, you know, Sager, you'll

1686
01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:01,160
Speaker 4: maybe get a little discount.

1687
01:33:01,280 --> 01:33:03,479
Speaker 5: Yeah, and we're kicking around a little Friday.

1688
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:07,120
Speaker 4: That's right, possiblity forgetting looking at that Friday show.

1689
01:33:07,400 --> 01:33:09,080
Speaker 3: So keep subscribing.

1690
01:33:09,479 --> 01:33:12,200
Speaker 4: The more subscribes we have, the more opportunity we have

1691
01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:13,200
Speaker 4: then to do a Friday show.

1692
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:14,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, and let us know if there's anything that you

1693
01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:17,840
Speaker 5: think would work faster, you want us to keep in

1694
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:20,200
Speaker 5: mind as we think about that. We're always happy to

1695
01:33:20,240 --> 01:33:23,360
Speaker 5: hear that. But we will be back here next Wednesday

1696
01:33:23,479 --> 01:33:26,559
Speaker 5: with more counterpoints, more counterpoints in twenty twenty four. So

1697
01:33:26,600 --> 01:33:27,840
Speaker 5: we appreciate everyone watching.

1698
01:33:27,960 --> 01:33:28,519
Speaker 4: See you later.