WEBVTT - Radicalization by Algorithm 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.800 Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production from my Heart Radio. 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:14.280 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:16.799 Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with our Heart Radio 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:18.320 and I love all things tech and I had to 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:23.439 rush through that intro. Ladies, gentlemen, everybody. I have to 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.640 talk to my good friend Bridget, host of There Are 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.360 No Girls on the Internet, who has joined the show 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.320 today to talk about a very serious topic. But before 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.280 we get into that, Bridget, it is so nice to 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:38.800 have you on the show. It's so nice to be here. 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.800 I'm so excited. You know, we connect every week just 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:45.000 via phone, and it's nice to be connecting in people's 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:50.160 ear buzz in podcast land. Yeah. So, Bridget has been 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.040 hosting an incredible show, There Are No Girls on the Internet. 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.400 If you haven't heard it already, you absolutely need to 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.800 seek it out. And specifically, I wanted to bring her 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:04.280 on the show to talk about a season two theme 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:09.959 that you've really done a lot of hard work on, Disinformed, 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:14.720 because we're going to be talking about misinformation, disinformation and 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:19.080 the promotion of that through algorithms. But Bridge on one, 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:20.800 in your own words, why don't you talk a bit 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.200 about there are no girls on the Internet in general 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:27.840 and disinformed particular. Yeah, so There Are No Girls on 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:30.720 the Internet was really born from this idea that we 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:35.200 know that marginalized people, underrepresented people, women, communities of color, 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.559 other folks from underrepresented backgrounds have had such a huge 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:42.679 impact on technology and honestly, just what makes the Internet 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.160 a fun, great place? Like how many times is there 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:48.840 hilarious hashtag or a hilarious vine or a hilarious video 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.160 on TikTok that goes viral that you're seeing everywhere and 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:54.960 the person behind it is a woman or a person 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:57.280 of color. And so I really wanted to carve out 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.280 a space where we could really highlight and sell brain 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:04.480 and amplify all the amazing impacts that people from underrepresented 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:07.320 backgrounds have had on the Internet. And so that's why 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:09.079 I started There Are No Girls on the Internet. It's 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.000 been a really fun journey to really talk about some 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:14.920 of the ways that underrepresenting folks either show up or 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.320 don't show up online. And from making that show, one 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:19.960 of the things that came up for me again and 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:25.760 again was the role that disinformation and distorted media stories, 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:30.280 fake news that you know, um things like online harassment radicalization. 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:34.880 How these same underrepresenting people who are showing up, making up, 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:38.080 making great content online, making the Internet such a fun place, 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.360 those same people are really at the forefront of a 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:44.400 lot of this stuff, right, You know, when it comes 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.920 to disinformation, communities of color are the most impacted, women 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.440 are the most impacted. But we are the same ones 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:51.959 who are doing a lot of the research and a 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:53.920 lot of the work to fight back. And I was 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.000 really fascinated by that. I was fascinated by the human 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.480 center of of disinformation. I think with a lot of tech, 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.400 it can be hard to remember that it's really about people. 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:05.920 You know, that people looked up at the other end 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.360 of screens or the other end of phones, and disinformation 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.440 was a situation where it really was important to meet 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:14.680 a center those people and to make sure that their 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:18.120 stories were at the forefront. You bring up a point 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:20.280 that I think is good for us to lay out 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:22.720 right at the very beginning, because while we're going to 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:29.959 be talking about social media platforms, specifically platforms like Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.920 those sort of things, and to another extent, some of 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:38.240 the more uh extreme social networks that are out there 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:43.520 that are heavily promoting things like radicalization within the confines 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.480 of those own communities. While we're going to talk about that, 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:50.480 we have to remember that's one piece of a very big, 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:56.160 very complicated puzzle. UH. The the pathway to extremism or 0:03:56.240 --> 0:04:02.080 radicalization is not a one lane highway where everybody goes 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.440 the exact same way. There's usually a lot of different 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:11.080 factors at play, and if we're being completely honest, we 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:16.880 still don't really have a full understanding of what weighted 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:21.800 UH factors are the most important, right like obviously being 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:28.960 in person with groups that are UH proselytizing extremist views 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.920 and are reinforcing when new people come into the community 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:37.720 that those extremist views are legitimate and and reinforcing. Whenever 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:41.960 someone expresses an extremist view, that's clearly very important, and 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:46.080 when it happens in a real space meet space, UH, 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.080 it can have a huge impact. But we also know 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:54.680 that online interactions also can play a big part, especially 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:59.720 as we have embraced them more wholeheartedly in the last decade, 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.400 and clearly in a situation like we are in now 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.080 where all of a lot of us are at home 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:09.440 and the only interactions were mostly having with other people 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:14.680 are online we're seeing that online radicalization is in fact 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.520 a factor as well, but to what extent it is 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:25.360 as effective or ineffective as others. That's something that's under 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:29.159 academic debate. So we're gonna have this discussion, but we 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.520 do want to make it clear that there are no 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.680 absolutes that we know of yet. These are all things 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:38.280 that are under study and consideration. It's more that we're 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:41.000 trying to kind of take stock of what's going on 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:45.800 and what elements could be playing a part in the 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:50.480 in the process of someone encountering extremist views and the 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:55.520 possibility of getting wrapped up in that um. So with 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.760 that in mind, let's talk about social media. One thing 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:02.719 I noticed I decided to do a quick search bridget 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:07.000 before we jumped on this call, and I found a 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.479 Pew Research survey from a couple of years ago that 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.400 was looking at, uh, what percentage of people were getting 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:19.880 some or most of their news through social networking sites, 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:24.920 primarily Facebook, And at this point it's around adults get 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:29.279 either some of their news through social media or practically 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:33.760 all of their news through social media. So obviously a 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:38.480 social platform plays a big part in the way we 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:43.360 access information that we then tried to incorporate into our lives. Yeah, 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.200 I think so. I know that study. I'm glad that 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.840 you grounded it in our conversation in that study. You know, 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.480 as someone who tracks and and talks and thinks a 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:54.200 lot about the way that platforms operate in the role 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:57.680 they have in our society. For a long time, platforms 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.440 like Facebook would say that they were just neutral plat forms, 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.000 you know, they did not need to take any kind 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.600 of editorial strategy because they're just neutral platforms. And I 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:10.400 think that Pew study that adults get some some aspect 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.600 of their news from from these platforms really shows how 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.080 that's not always the case. You know, you have to 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:20.240 I think that tech leaders should be thinking about their 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:23.360 platform policies based on the role they actually play in 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:26.280 their users lives. And if most users are saying, hey, 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.800 I use your platforms to get my news, then maybe 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:32.120 you do need to have a little bit of editorial strategy, right, 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:33.840 Maybe you do need to have policies in place to 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.480 make sure that it's that it's being used in safe 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.480 and responsible ways. I'm glad that we have moved away 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:41.920 from that thinking that's like, oh, it is not my 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.160 fire on a platform. It is not my responsibility to 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.160 have any kind of policing or policies around what is 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:49.840 on that platform, which I think was the conversation for 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:53.200 so long. Yeah, I think the interesting thing to me 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.520 is that, um, you will hear a lot of debate 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.200 in in the in America about Section to thirty, which 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:06.560 is a specific piece of legislation that provides online platforms 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.760 some legal immunity from the sort of stuff that their 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.560 users might post to those platforms, saying that they are 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:17.520 not responsible for the things that their users share. And 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.840 the hope of the people who actually drafted that legislation 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:23.320 was that it was going to be a two pronged thing. 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:28.600 It would allow platforms to establish themselves, because otherwise they 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:32.400 would constantly be under legal threat and nothing would ever 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.559 gain any traction, because this legislation was proposed in the 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:40.520 nineties when the Worldwide Web was very young, And the 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:42.680 second part was that they were really hoping it was 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:47.240 going to lead to uh to moderation practices on these platforms, 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.800 that the platforms would moderate the material that was being 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:55.440 posted to them without fear of legal action against them 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.520 for doing so, that they would be given that freedom. 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:03.760 And the problem or one of the problems is that 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.120 a lot of these platforms embraced the first part where 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.839 they're not held responsible for the stuff that people post 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.240 to them, but they didn't go so hard on the 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:16.280 second part, where they actually moderate the material. And we've 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:20.760 seen that time and again because we've seen it on Facebook, 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:22.720 we've seen it a lot on YouTube. I mean, the 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.080 the whole uh controversy a couple of years ago about 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:31.319 the the various bizarre and sometimes very disturbing videos that 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:37.280 were showing up on YouTube's children oriented service shows that, Uh, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.240 they weren't really looking at it from that perspective for 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.000 multiple reasons. And we'll get into some of those a 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.079 little bit later, because it does tie into the algorithm 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.800 side too. Uh. The other part Pew study that I 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:55.160 saw that was interesting and disheartening is a separate study 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:59.120 found that people who gained most of their news from 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:03.480 social media of sites were in general less engaged and 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.280 less knowledgeable about the subject matter than those who were 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:12.800 consuming it from multiple sources. So if you were someone who, yeah, 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.280 you've got some of your news from social platforms, but 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.040 you also got some of your news from journals or 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:23.000 newspapers or television, or radio or whatever. You generally had 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:26.280 a better understanding of subject matter. And this to me 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.880 almost sounds like the problem of people reading a headline, 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:35.160 never clicking through to read and digest the content, and 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:40.840 basing their entire response on the headline and maybe comments 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.320 that are placed underneath an article that's been posted to Facebook, 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:48.920 let's say, which is really upsetting as someone who has 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:52.000 an English background, I mean especially and for us, like 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.480 we've worked in media, we know there's a special skill 0:10:55.800 --> 0:11:01.520 in creating headlines that doesn't necessarily relate back to the 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.760 content of the piece that it's attached to, or it's 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:10.160 it's some minor element that's elevated in order to gain attention. 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:13.040 So this, to me is another issue. And this is 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.800 before we even get into purposeful misinformation. This can just 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:21.320 be a misunderstanding because you didn't take the time to 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:26.960 read the full material. Oh absolutely, I can. I'm I 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.680 can say so much about this. Um So, I got 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:31.400 my One of the places that I've worked in my 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.880 life was MSNBC. I was on their digital team and 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:38.560 so our job was essentially framing stories on social media 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:40.679 in ways that we're going to get them clicks, and 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.160 you know, attention online, and so we also had access 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:46.719 to metrics, so we could actually see how people were 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:50.400 engaging with this content. And the amount of times that 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.320 people share stories on Facebook that we can see on 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:56.400 the back end that they have not actually clicked in 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.240 to read would frighten you. But it was our job 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.680 to kind of explore that, and so we learned that, 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:06.200 you know, oh, people like to share articles where it 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.520 seems like they're trying to indicate something about themselves, like 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.920 this article makes them look thoughtful or um interesting or 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.320 unique or well read but really informed, um, and so 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:18.960 they want to project that to the best of their followers, 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.720 so they share it. But those same stories are the 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:23.600 ones that people aren't clicking in to read. And so 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.360 it really is not surprising to me that people who 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.120 get their media and news from social media primarily are 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:34.000 less informed and less engaged, because I think these media 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:38.240 ecosystems really prioritize that. I think that they built a 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:43.120 media landscape that prioritizes sharing without reading thoughtfully right, like 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.199 everything happened so quickly on the Internet, I feel like 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.480 that is what's really the priority. And I also think 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.800 just our our media landscape has really changed I grew 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.560 up in a household where we got the newspaper. We've 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:56.320 got multiple newspapers in my home and we have to, 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:00.440 you know, note the ways that are Our journalism industry 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.959 has really been you know, um decimated. And so it's 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.160 not surprising to me that as small local papers that 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:11.280 are putting out local, relevant, timely information right on your doorstep, 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:13.760 as those begin to shut their doors, more and more 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.360 people are turning to social media, which is in turn 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.680 and making them less informed. That this is not a 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:22.560 surprise to me. Right, I have a great example to 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.920 give you a bridget It's a very recent one and 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:28.600 I think it's one you'll appreciate, which is that, uh, 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:31.200 as I record this, I think we're like a day 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:35.880 out from when a trailer for a new Mortal Kombat 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:40.280 movie came out and over on Jezebel, a writer wrote 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:44.080 an article with the title, why isn't chun Lee in 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.720 the Mortal Kombat movie? And for those who aren't schooled 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.120 in Mortal Kombat, chun Ley is not a character from 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:56.800 Mortal Kombat. She's a character from Street Fighter, different different franchise, Right, 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.640 But that was the headline. If you at the article, 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.680 there were hints in the article that this was a joke, 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.520 that there's a point where she they say, if in 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.720 the ultimate street Fight, chun Lee needs to be there, 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:14.480 indicating yes, the author knows that chun Lee doesn't live 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:17.079 in Mortal Kombat world, that chun Ley lives in street 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:20.680 Fighter world. But it was almost like a like a 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:25.760 social experiment, and of course Twitter went nuts and everybody 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:29.360 started slamming this article, saying, look, how stupid this person is. 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:31.000 They don't even know that chun Ley is not in 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.760 Mortal Kombat. Which made me say, all this is telling 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:38.320 me is which of you guys failed to read the article, 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:40.840 Because if you had read the article, you would have 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.440 seen it was a joke, you would have recognized it 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.920 as satire, and you would know that that this was 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.320 a wind up the whole time. You're really just falling 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.600 into the trap that the writer set at this point. 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:57.160 And it's just the perfect microcosm of this this tendency. 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:01.200 And I think that po listing links to two news 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:06.200 articles has almost become a shortcut for a comment. It's 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.400 almost like a comment or a gift or an emoji. Right, 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.840 It's a way for someone to say, here is my thought, 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:17.240 on that, uh in headline form, even though you may 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.000 not have clicked through to read the actual article underneath, 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.640 or you're just you're looking for something that supports whatever 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.640 position you're taking on any particular topic, whether it's something 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.880 lighthearted in pop culture or it's something really serious and 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:35.640 it has to do with like politics or health. And 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.000 I see that a lot too, where people are clearly 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:42.640 grabbing articles. They're just doing the down in dirty Google 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.200 search to find something that looks like it supports their 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.680 position and uses that in place. So again, this is 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:53.680 all before you even get too purposeful misinformation or disinformation. 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:55.920 It may be that the sources that you pull from 0:15:56.040 --> 0:16:00.240 our misinformation, but it may be that they're totally yet 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:02.200 you just don't know the context for it. So you're 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.600 just you're just throwing things at the wall to see 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.000 what sticks. And uh So we're doing a lot of 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.640 the work ourselves is part of it, Like we have 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:16.240 created a a kind of culture that supports the sharing 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.600 of misinformation. But the flip side of that coin is 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:26.280 these platforms are optimized for the sharing of misinformation and 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:31.760 the elevation of misinformation. And that's really the part that 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:35.640 we can look at more critically and say in what 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.960 ways is this happening? And uh and and how culpable 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:45.440 are these platforms for that process? Uh? Keeping in mind 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:47.440 that in most cases, I think we would argue that 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:52.240 ultimately there are other people not connected to the platforms 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:56.880 who are generating the content that's getting elevated there, but 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:00.600 the platforms are benefiting from that. Um. So let's talk 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.600 a little bit about that and and what is going 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:05.800 on with these platforms and why we want to even 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:10.200 talk about algorithms. Uh So, just so you guys out there, no, 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.640 and algorithm is essentially just a list of instructions. It's 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.320 a you can think of it like a program. Doesn't 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:18.360 have to be a program, but it's essentially a list 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:21.919 of instructions that guides some sort of process. And in 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.200 the case of social networks, essentially what we talk about 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.240 when we say algorithm is it's the bit of that 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:33.080 platform that decides what content you see in what order 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.600 you see it. So for YouTube, it could be the 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.960 recommendation engine where you're watching one video and then you've 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.440 got a whole bunch of other videos recommended along the side. 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:46.399 So for me, it's all, uh, cute animal videos. I 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.080 wish I could lie and say it wasn't. I'm a 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:51.439 punk rock kind of guy. But it's all kitten and 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:56.960 puppy videos sometimes a sloth um and Facebook. It's it's 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.440 which posts you see in which order. You know, everyone 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:02.840 gets frustrated that they're not seeing it in a reverse 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:09.040 chronological order. Well, that's by design, and if as users 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.040 we think of it as it's the algorithm that shows 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:15.480 us what is potentially next on our docket. For the platforms, 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:21.639 algorithms exist solely because the platform wants to keep people 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.479 on it for as long as possible, because that's how 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:29.640 the platforms make money. It's through advertising, Uh, it's through 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:35.400 the the commoditization of people's personal information that they generate 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.240 while they're on that platform. And the longer you're on it, 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.720 the more the platform makes So the algorithms are are 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:46.840 I would argue a moral they don't really care what 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:49.880 is they're serving up as long as it keeps you there, 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:54.159 and that I think is the core of the problem. 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:59.200 Absolutely a thousand percent correct. I think that tech platforms 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:01.960 need to be held accountable for the ways that their 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:08.880 algorithms have really just take an advantage of a lot 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:13.480 of human nature is not so great tendencies, right humans. Listen, 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.280 we all know humans are terrible, right. We are lazy. 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:20.720 We make rash, snap decisions, myself very much included. We 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:24.240 will smash that share button, smash that like button, smash 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:26.639 that comment button on an article that frankly, we have 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.240 not read, and we're just putting our uninformed opinion out there. 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:33.960 I am guilty of all of this. Right, Platforms Essentially, 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:37.960 algorithms have rewarded that kind of behavior, that kind of 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:42.240 quick behavior, snap decision making, and created this this media 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:47.639 landscape where the citizenry is less informed, less engaged, and 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.959 more prime for bad actors to disinform and misinform them. 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:52.320 And I think the way that you put it it 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:57.199 is completely correct. And I think you know I I 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.560 say this all the time on my own podcast. I 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:01.800 want to one of the reasons why I'm very interested 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:03.920 in disinformation is because I think it's a good example 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:07.200 of the way that algorithmic thinking has really failed us. 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:10.600 You know, I want to build an internet that prioritizes 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:14.320 and privileges things like thoughtfulness or you know, discourse, or 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.720 really engaging with opinions that are different from your own. 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.840 And I feel like algorithms and platforms have given us 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.760 the opposite. It's a media landscape that rewards quick decision 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:29.360 making and being less engaged and less thoughtful and engaging 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:33.640 less and thus leaving people really able to be exploited 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.640 by people who do want to push misinformation and disinformation. 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.800 And I think when platforms like Facebook get rich off 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.000 of it, we really have to ask some questions. You know, 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:44.960 Facebook's own internal report says that six or four percent 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.400 at a time, when somebody joins an extremist Facebook group, 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.800 it's because Facebook itself recommended it, right, They should not 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:54.560 then be getting more money based on something that they 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:58.680 admit has such a corrosive impact on our society. Hey, guys, 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:00.920 Jonathan from the future here is coming in to say, 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.040 we're going to take a quick break with our conversation 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.560 with bridget Todd of there are no girls on the Internet, 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:16.280 and we will be back right after this break. You 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:22.520 can't play both sides of the issue saying, uh, we 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:26.960 don't have any responsibility, We're we're neutral, We're just a 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:31.639 platform that people post to, and then also reaping the 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:37.440 billions of dollars generated through the process of radicalization. If 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:42.280 you are directly profiting from that process. You are at 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:46.160 least in some way culpable for it. You can't like 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:49.679 the idea of being able to wash your hands and 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:55.200 walk away is uh alien to me. I can't imagine 0:21:55.240 --> 0:22:00.280 being able to shed that kind of responsibility. And you know, 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:03.199 we talk about Facebook revenue in the billions of dollars 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:06.160 every single quarter. It's not not billions of dollars per year. 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:09.040 Every quarter of that company is making billions and a 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:13.479 lot of this is because of these algorithms that you know, 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:19.920 Facebook's their value proposition is that they can put very 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:23.880 specific groups of people in front of very specific content. 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:29.679 And it's it's because the the the Facebook engine learns 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:34.240 so much about us and what how we interact that 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:37.040 it can start predicting the things that we're going to 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:41.280 react to next and thus serve up that stuff in 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:44.960 front of us, and sure enough, we're bound to act 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:48.640 on it. And in if this were a world where 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:51.200 radicalization wasn't a thing, that would mostly mean we would 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:54.159 all be buying more crap and that would be the 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:57.840 worst of it. But we're seeing in the same thing 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:00.679 is true of YouTube, right that YouTube Google when you 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:03.879 log into YouTube, not if you're just browsing it, like, 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:07.320 without being logged in. But if you're logged into YouTube, 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:12.879 it is constantly tweaking your profile of the sort of 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:15.520 things that you interact with, both on and off the site, 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:20.119 and building on that and determining what you want to 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:22.560 see next. In fact, there were there was a study 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:27.080 self published, not even pure reviewed. I hesitate to even 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:29.680 bring it up, but there was one report that was 0:23:29.680 --> 0:23:32.800 published a couple of years ago where a pair of 0:23:33.040 --> 0:23:36.920 researchers and I used the term lightly, argued that YouTube 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:41.280 wasn't contributing to radicalization. And they had this whole thing 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:44.359 where they talked about watching different styles of videos and 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:48.400 seeing what got recommended next. Except for one tiny little thing. 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:52.040 They didn't log into YouTube. They were they were watching 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:55.960 it without logging in, And it's the log in process 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.479 where Google starts to build that profile, figuring out, oh, well, 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:01.639 they're inter acting with a lot of content that's in 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:04.439 say the video game space. That's another one that I 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:07.320 watch a lot of. So now I get puppies and 0:24:07.400 --> 0:24:09.480 kittens and video games, not all in the same video 0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:13.639 there separate, but I get a good mix. Um. But 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:18.000 if I were if I were to start watching videos 0:24:18.040 --> 0:24:22.120 that were let's say a little to the far right 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:25.879 or the far left of the spectrum. Uh, then the 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:29.880 those algorithms start working and start determining what other sort 0:24:29.920 --> 0:24:33.800 of videos might I respond well to, and based upon 0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:38.000 my activities on the site, it tweaks those waitings, right, 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:40.919 It says, it's like machine learning. It says, all right, well, 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:44.920 we saw that they that this person spent an hour 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:48.240 when we shared this kind of video, so let's push 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:50.080 even harder on that and see if we can get 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:54.840 that engagement up even more. And from the platform side, 0:24:54.880 --> 0:24:57.880 they're just thinking, how can we maximize this person's time 0:24:57.880 --> 0:25:00.520 on our platform and make the most money. But it's 0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:06.760 it's the same general approach as trying to radicalize someone, 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:11.320 where you're trying to continually serve them up information from 0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:15.639 a very specific ideology and to reinforce that over and over. 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:18.720 It just so happens that these two things are in 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:23.840 aligned with one another. And so from that algorithmic standpoint, 0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:29.680 we see the process of radicalization somewhat automated, and that 0:25:29.880 --> 0:25:32.600 is where the real concerns are, and we know that 0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:36.000 this is still a thing. There was a report just 0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:41.080 earlier this month about how researchers were still finding that 0:25:41.200 --> 0:25:45.040 extremist videos would get pop up in the recommendation uh 0:25:45.160 --> 0:25:48.720 sidebar if you were to to watch them, whereas YouTube 0:25:48.760 --> 0:25:52.480 has been working pretty hard to to to call that, 0:25:52.720 --> 0:25:58.520 but it's still happening. So this is I can't see 0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:03.240 how if you run so shual media platform that has 0:26:03.280 --> 0:26:06.480 an algorithm to determine what order you see stuff in, 0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:11.560 how you can step back and say you're not responsible 0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:17.320 for at least playing a role in leading people toward extremism. 0:26:17.359 --> 0:26:19.399 I mean, I wish I had that ability to wash 0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:22.240 my hands of responsibility of things that I don't want 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:26.199 you be responsible for. But it's difficult to see how people, 0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:29.879 how tech leaders cannot see their culpability in this. Just 0:26:29.920 --> 0:26:32.800 as you described, it's it's very difficult to make the 0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:36.680 argument that they don't have a responsibility when these kinds 0:26:36.720 --> 0:26:40.000 of things, by their own metrics, are happening on their platform. 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:43.280 It's very clear study after study after study, particularly on YouTube, 0:26:43.440 --> 0:26:46.720 which frankly, you know, in all of the conversations we've 0:26:46.720 --> 0:26:49.520 been happening about having about you know, platform accountability, I've 0:26:49.560 --> 0:26:53.280 been surprised the way that YouTube has really been able 0:26:53.320 --> 0:26:55.240 to kind of skirt a lot of that heat. Like 0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:57.280 we talk a lot about Facebook, we talk about Twitter, 0:26:57.600 --> 0:26:59.520 but YouTube. I don't know how they've done it, but 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:02.720 they've been a this sort of sidestep that conversation, which 0:27:02.760 --> 0:27:05.880 I think is really not good considering the role they 0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:08.199 do play in radicalization. You know, I think that we 0:27:08.320 --> 0:27:11.360 really I'm very curious how they've been able to avoid 0:27:11.440 --> 0:27:15.480 that kind of responsibility for so long. Your point about platforms, 0:27:15.520 --> 0:27:16.720 I think it is such a good one, and that 0:27:17.359 --> 0:27:18.800 if they're if if we didn't, if you lived in 0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:22.160 a wrote that did not have radical views or extremist views, 0:27:22.600 --> 0:27:25.320 even then I would I would want to ask questions 0:27:25.359 --> 0:27:29.120 about whether or not these platforms are actually doing good 0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:31.679 or doing harm. I remember this time. This is kind 0:27:31.720 --> 0:27:33.080 of a weird story, but I was going through a 0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:36.160 breakup and I was still following my ex on Facebook. 0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:37.879 And it was one of those breakups where I was like, 0:27:38.000 --> 0:27:40.919 you know, like it was really getting me down, and 0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:45.760 I realized Facebook must have sensed that my relationship with 0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:48.560 this other account was something was going on there. So 0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:51.600 every little update that I got about my ex, Facebook 0:27:51.680 --> 0:27:53.680 was like shoving it in my face. And I realized 0:27:54.000 --> 0:27:56.359 a platform can make you feel bad about yourself. A 0:27:56.359 --> 0:27:58.440 platform can make you if it has the power to 0:27:58.480 --> 0:28:01.240 shape you to extremist ideality, to your extremist thinking or 0:28:01.280 --> 0:28:04.800 political content. It has that power to really shape how 0:28:04.880 --> 0:28:07.000 we feel in our day to day. I wish it 0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:10.120 wasn't true, but it is. And so I think even 0:28:10.359 --> 0:28:13.200 from that perspective, it is completely fair to step back 0:28:13.240 --> 0:28:16.960 and ask, well, how are these platforms contributing to harm? 0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:19.720 Whether it's extremist content or just how someone feels on 0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:21.480 their day to day, like if they feel like they're 0:28:21.520 --> 0:28:25.040 able to step away from platforms, if platforms have prioritized 0:28:25.359 --> 0:28:28.439 amount of time on screen or amount of time on 0:28:28.480 --> 0:28:31.080 a page, or what have you. Is that kind of 0:28:31.080 --> 0:28:34.080 thinking doing harm in society? I think it's completely fair 0:28:34.119 --> 0:28:36.199 to ask these questions. And I think, you know, I 0:28:36.240 --> 0:28:39.880 would like platforms. I would like tech leaders and the 0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:42.840 people that you know use these these technologies to have 0:28:43.000 --> 0:28:45.160 that conversation. But I feel like getting to a point 0:28:45.160 --> 0:28:46.560 where we're all on the same page it has been 0:28:46.600 --> 0:28:50.479 so tough. Yeah, And I would say that the the 0:28:50.600 --> 0:28:55.520 efforts we have seen kind of illustrate the point you're making, 0:28:55.520 --> 0:29:00.520 Bridget in that we see these tech companies occasionally spawned 0:29:01.400 --> 0:29:04.280 when things come to a point where there's no other option, 0:29:04.360 --> 0:29:08.240 they have to respond right there, called before Congress. Perhaps 0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:12.960 that's happened multiple times now, or they're under pressure because 0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:17.600 of advertisers that don't want to be associated with things 0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:21.400 that are spiraling out of control. Uh, we see that 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:24.600 those cases when I have things get to the extreme, 0:29:24.680 --> 0:29:30.760 But often the responses are very uh, surface level. So 0:29:31.000 --> 0:29:35.760 things like we now have a part of our app 0:29:35.840 --> 0:29:39.000 where it will alert you if you've spent X amount 0:29:39.000 --> 0:29:41.200 of time on the app, So it's a little screen 0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:46.080 alert time. And you're thinking, well, I see how you're 0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:50.280 trying to address the issue kind of, but you're not 0:29:50.400 --> 0:29:54.120 getting at the underlying problem. You're just looking at a symptom. 0:29:54.160 --> 0:29:58.440 It's like treating someone who is very, very sick, but 0:29:58.480 --> 0:30:00.640 all you can do is alleviate the terms but not 0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:05.000 cure the sickness. The same sort of issue. And uh, 0:30:05.400 --> 0:30:09.840 when we're talking about platforms that have the capacity to 0:30:10.080 --> 0:30:16.600 make massive changes in people's behavior over time, that's not 0:30:16.680 --> 0:30:22.280 really good enough, right, That's it. We are We are 0:30:22.360 --> 0:30:27.480 having countless people go down dark pathways where it's very 0:30:27.480 --> 0:30:31.400 hard to turn back, and there's they're going into communities 0:30:31.480 --> 0:30:37.120 where there's all this reinforcement that's again supplemented by the 0:30:37.640 --> 0:30:40.880 wave platforms work in the first place. Now, one of 0:30:40.880 --> 0:30:43.000 the other things I wanted to mention is that and 0:30:43.040 --> 0:30:45.120 I we talked about at the very beginning about how 0:30:46.200 --> 0:30:50.440 we don't know really the full scope of the effect 0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:52.880 of this. We know what's happening, we know that it's 0:30:52.880 --> 0:30:58.560 a problem. The interesting thing is seeing some disagreements among 0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:02.480 researchers who have really looked into this as to the extent. 0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:06.600 So one of the articles I referenced with you, Bridget 0:31:06.720 --> 0:31:10.320 was one that an opinion piece and wired by Emma Bryant. 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:15.080 She was writing about the Oxford Institute. They had released 0:31:15.080 --> 0:31:19.840 a study that was showing an increase in UH companies 0:31:19.880 --> 0:31:24.920 participating in influenced. Influenced campaigns is the way they word it. 0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:28.480 I hate these I hate these words that we use 0:31:29.080 --> 0:31:32.040 where we take the staying out of what's happening. It's 0:31:32.040 --> 0:31:35.000 an influence campaing. Although it does also bring give you 0:31:35.040 --> 0:31:37.440 a new appreciation of what it means to be an influencer. 0:31:37.480 --> 0:31:43.560 It makes it much more sinister, realistic, but sinister. Yeah, 0:31:44.280 --> 0:31:47.680 campaign sounds like what a Instagram influencer does to get 0:31:47.720 --> 0:31:54.040 you to buy coffee or something. Yeah. And now, granted 0:31:54.120 --> 0:31:58.080 you could argue that the same same ideas that are 0:31:58.200 --> 0:32:00.800 used by influencers to try and get their followers to 0:32:00.840 --> 0:32:04.720 go and buy whatever brand is supporting them are it's 0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:07.240 somewhat aligned with some of these other ideas. But I 0:32:07.280 --> 0:32:09.680 think we could agree that there's a spectrum of harm 0:32:09.760 --> 0:32:14.240 here from from oh man, this drink that I bought 0:32:14.360 --> 0:32:16.240 is real nasty. I wish I hadn't bought it too. 0:32:16.720 --> 0:32:19.200 Oh man, I found myself on the steps of the 0:32:19.240 --> 0:32:21.800 Capitol on January six that boy, well, am I sorry 0:32:21.800 --> 0:32:25.240 that I've done that? Um, that's a that's a spectrum 0:32:25.680 --> 0:32:28.720 right there, That's what we call that. But what am 0:32:28.720 --> 0:32:31.040 I Brant was writing about was that so Oxford Institut 0:32:31.080 --> 0:32:33.680 who comes out and says that that there's been an 0:32:33.720 --> 0:32:39.000 increase year over year of this form of of misinformation 0:32:39.120 --> 0:32:43.720 campaigns and the role of the Internet, and uh, Bryant's 0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:48.920 point was that we don't even understand the full scope 0:32:49.000 --> 0:32:51.920 of this, and it's more like we're paying more attention, 0:32:52.080 --> 0:32:54.960 so we're seeing more of this, but it doesn't tell 0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:57.480 us that there's actually been an increase year over year. 0:32:57.560 --> 0:33:00.480 What it tells us is that we're finally paying attention 0:33:00.520 --> 0:33:03.040 to a very real problem that's been around for a while. 0:33:03.520 --> 0:33:05.800 If I can make an analogy, it's kind of like 0:33:06.400 --> 0:33:09.680 when people started to see, uh, what appeared to be 0:33:09.720 --> 0:33:13.320 autism rates rise, but in reality it looked like it 0:33:13.400 --> 0:33:16.800 was more that the definition and the way of diagnosing 0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:20.600 autism had expanded to a point where we were just 0:33:20.760 --> 0:33:24.520 realizing the number of cases that actually exist, as opposed 0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:28.200 to it's increasing. It was more that, oh, no, it 0:33:28.320 --> 0:33:31.240 was here, we just didn't recognize a lot of this 0:33:31.520 --> 0:33:35.080 as autism. It was sort of the same argument that 0:33:35.360 --> 0:33:38.560 Emma Brian is making in that if you if you 0:33:38.800 --> 0:33:41.200 come back and you say, well, I looked at the ocean, 0:33:41.480 --> 0:33:44.320 and we took a bucket out and we filled it 0:33:44.400 --> 0:33:46.360 up five times, so we know there's at least five 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:49.360 buckets of water in the ocean. And you say, well, yes, 0:33:49.960 --> 0:33:51.840 but there's a lot else that's there that we don't 0:33:51.880 --> 0:33:54.280 know about yet, and we we haven't measured and we 0:33:54.320 --> 0:33:59.280 haven't quantified. And to me, that is it's interesting. It 0:33:59.520 --> 0:34:04.080 shows an opportunity for actual, real research and analysis and 0:34:04.120 --> 0:34:08.320 study into what's actually there as opposed to what's being reported, 0:34:08.560 --> 0:34:13.320 and it's frightening. It's so scary because we don't even 0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:16.239 like like she says, you know, they looked at a 0:34:16.320 --> 0:34:20.320 list of a couple of dozen different um UH platforms 0:34:20.360 --> 0:34:24.440 that were actively pushing out misinformation back in twenty nineteen, 0:34:24.480 --> 0:34:28.000 I think it was, And she said, listen in Cambridge, 0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:31.799 Analytica was active in six different countries by itself, that 0:34:31.880 --> 0:34:34.600 was just one and says I've I've just started and 0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:37.440 I've made a list of more than six hundred companies 0:34:37.480 --> 0:34:44.960 that are actively push pushing out influencer operations. So that's 0:34:45.120 --> 0:34:47.680 why I wanted to set that ground early on. Is 0:34:47.840 --> 0:34:51.719 it's not to say that what we're talking about UH 0:34:51.920 --> 0:34:56.520 isn't relevant, but rather we can't speak in any any 0:34:56.640 --> 0:34:59.960 definitive scope because we just don't know what that scope is. 0:35:00.719 --> 0:35:04.520 And to that means that we've gotta be on the lookout. Yeah, 0:35:04.640 --> 0:35:07.480 and and I'm sorry to say this, but that Oxford 0:35:07.520 --> 0:35:11.799 study that that she references in that piece is incredibly influential, right, 0:35:11.840 --> 0:35:16.920 and so it is it's upsetting to see, I mean, 0:35:17.000 --> 0:35:20.880 the name like Oxford, you expect a level of rigor, 0:35:21.239 --> 0:35:23.040 you know, in in the kind of research they're putting 0:35:23.040 --> 0:35:24.879 out right, I'm not a researcher, so I I can't 0:35:24.880 --> 0:35:27.799 really say. But the name Oxford, You're like, Okay, that's 0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:29.360 going to be a very reputable you know, it's a 0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:34.160 reputable place. But it's got some it's got some research 0:35:34.160 --> 0:35:38.799 street cred. Yeah. Absolutely. Um. And it's upsetting that that 0:35:38.920 --> 0:35:43.120 study was so influential in the disinformation space when a 0:35:43.200 --> 0:35:46.160 lot of the points that it makes are really flawed. 0:35:46.239 --> 0:35:47.879 And she also, I have to say, she points out 0:35:47.920 --> 0:35:50.480 that there the study itself had a lot of typos 0:35:50.520 --> 0:35:53.239 and like spelling errors, which I would be so embarrassed 0:35:53.440 --> 0:35:55.560 if I put out an influential study and someone was like, 0:35:55.560 --> 0:35:59.279 actually it was really sloppy, I would be like mortified. 0:35:59.480 --> 0:36:02.440 Her point is that the work is largely without meaning 0:36:02.600 --> 0:36:07.600 because it's creating a sense that we have metrics for 0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:12.879 something where uh, you know, really it's it's it's such 0:36:12.920 --> 0:36:16.440 a small subsection of the overall problem that her point 0:36:16.480 --> 0:36:18.600 is that it doesn't really tell us anything, right, It 0:36:18.719 --> 0:36:23.399 just it tells us of the reported incidents, But that, 0:36:23.840 --> 0:36:27.640 unfortunately is not really meaningful if you're looking at a 0:36:27.680 --> 0:36:33.640 holistic approach to misinformation, and in fact, you know, you know, 0:36:33.719 --> 0:36:36.520 and in fact, she was also pointing out that the 0:36:36.520 --> 0:36:41.440 study looked at countries where the reporting mechanism might not 0:36:41.520 --> 0:36:44.640 be as vigorous as in others, like countries that don't 0:36:45.560 --> 0:36:48.000 have the same sort of perspective on things like the 0:36:48.040 --> 0:36:51.640 freedom of the press, maybe state controlled press. You have 0:36:51.680 --> 0:36:54.920 places like China and Russia where the state has a 0:36:55.040 --> 0:36:57.680 large amount of influence on the media that goes out 0:36:57.719 --> 0:37:02.359 in those countries. Uh, It's it does show that that 0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:08.400 it's dangerous to take any stance where you're making absolute 0:37:08.480 --> 0:37:12.520 claims because we just don't have the study to really 0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:16.319 do that justifiably. We we don't have the evidence to 0:37:16.360 --> 0:37:19.120 back that up. You're exactly right, We don't know the 0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:21.319 real scope of the problem and the sort of lay 0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:23.640 of the land. I also think something that she points 0:37:23.640 --> 0:37:25.480 out that's really important to keep in mind is that 0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:29.600 a lot of folks from a media perspective just weren't 0:37:29.640 --> 0:37:33.319 really talking about disinformation in a serious way prior to 0:37:33.360 --> 0:37:37.080 like right, and so I think that an issue that 0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:39.719 we do have is people kind of getting up to 0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:42.279 speed with how we think about this issue in a 0:37:42.320 --> 0:37:46.840 holistic way, because I think, you know, after and after 0:37:47.080 --> 0:37:50.560 you know, the insurrection, I feel almost overnight, this was 0:37:50.600 --> 0:37:53.040 an issue that was getting more buzz and more pressed 0:37:53.040 --> 0:37:55.640 and people were talking about it more. But with that 0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:58.719 really does come and need to take a take a 0:37:58.760 --> 0:38:01.840 beat and would have analyzed how we've got to the 0:38:01.920 --> 0:38:04.759 space and and what, you know, try to put some 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:08.920 more research around, you know, understanding what is actually going on. 0:38:08.960 --> 0:38:11.600 And I agree that we haven't really gotten there yet. Um, 0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:14.880 and I am happy that there are more people who 0:38:14.920 --> 0:38:16.800 are interested in this issue, but I don't want it 0:38:16.840 --> 0:38:20.040 to become an issue where people are claiming to have 0:38:20.120 --> 0:38:22.719 more knowledge than they do, or people are claiming that 0:38:22.760 --> 0:38:25.120 we know more than we do. Because this this is 0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:28.359 very much still developing problem that we're still sort of 0:38:28.520 --> 0:38:31.600 trying to get a hold on. I would say, yeah, 0:38:31.840 --> 0:38:34.279 we don't want there to be misinformation about how much 0:38:34.360 --> 0:38:41.839 misinformation there is. Yeah, hey, guys, Jonathan from the future. Again, 0:38:41.880 --> 0:38:43.880 we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be 0:38:44.000 --> 0:38:50.320 right back with more about social media platforms, algorithms and radicalization. 0:38:58.120 --> 0:39:03.480 So this issue is getting to a point where the 0:39:03.520 --> 0:39:06.640 concern is great, and yet you also look at the 0:39:06.760 --> 0:39:09.600 tactics that are being used. You realize that the tactics 0:39:09.600 --> 0:39:12.920 that are used are very old. I mean, you know, 0:39:13.000 --> 0:39:19.120 the the approaches to extremism, to propaganda, to misinformation, that stuff. 0:39:19.160 --> 0:39:21.839 We we've got a handle on that. I mean, you know, 0:39:21.920 --> 0:39:25.759 you can see numerous documentaries from everything from people who 0:39:25.760 --> 0:39:28.839 were experts in creating the propaganda during World War Two, 0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:32.960 both on both sides of the conflict, up to you know, 0:39:33.040 --> 0:39:36.480 the ad executives. I mean, that's what Madman was all about, 0:39:36.680 --> 0:39:40.040 was the idea of framing. You know, how do you 0:39:40.040 --> 0:39:42.200 frame information in a way to get people to do 0:39:42.239 --> 0:39:45.399 what you want them to do. Um. You know, there's 0:39:45.560 --> 0:39:49.680 the whole discussion about the advertising about cigarettes, was all 0:39:49.719 --> 0:39:53.080 about that. So, like this is all old stuff. What's 0:39:53.120 --> 0:40:01.800 new is this this method of compartmentalizing communities and reinforcing 0:40:01.880 --> 0:40:06.799 the delivery system of that material. So it's the identifying 0:40:06.840 --> 0:40:13.080 of a potential candidate, the introduction of material to that 0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:17.600 candidate that will set them potentially down this pathway, and 0:40:17.640 --> 0:40:21.680 then the methods of reinforcing that and indoctrinating that person 0:40:22.239 --> 0:40:27.840 into more radical views. Interestingly, probably not surprisingly, some of 0:40:27.880 --> 0:40:30.960 the studies I was looking at suggested that this is 0:40:31.040 --> 0:40:34.720 most effective for people who kind of have the lone 0:40:34.760 --> 0:40:38.919 wolf kind of approach to radicalism, that in cases where 0:40:38.920 --> 0:40:44.440 you're looking at groups of extremists, typically the meat space 0:40:44.680 --> 0:40:48.160 is where that kind of radicalization still happens primarily. So, 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:52.920 but I would also argue that the insurrection on January six, 0:40:53.440 --> 0:40:56.640 that that was in large part a lot of different 0:40:56.680 --> 0:41:00.120 individuals who all just sort of kind of converged on 0:41:00.160 --> 0:41:03.319 the same point. That it wasn't as much let's all 0:41:03.400 --> 0:41:08.759 join these online groups and then we start to plan 0:41:08.880 --> 0:41:11.319 from there. It was that it was a bunch of 0:41:11.360 --> 0:41:18.640 individuals who started slowly gravitating toward one another through methods 0:41:18.680 --> 0:41:21.920 like this. And of course there are other communities I 0:41:22.000 --> 0:41:28.239 mentioned before, communities like parlor or parley if you prefer, uh, which, hey, 0:41:28.320 --> 0:41:33.520 they're back, that's great, um that where you know, there's 0:41:33.520 --> 0:41:35.839 not so much the algorithm there. It's it's that it's 0:41:35.840 --> 0:41:40.560 a community that is actively reinforcing beliefs. So in that case, 0:41:41.040 --> 0:41:45.440 it's it's almost more like the traditional method of radicalization 0:41:46.040 --> 0:41:50.440 in the sense that you have this this self um 0:41:50.800 --> 0:41:57.920 selected community that is following this process. So it we 0:41:58.000 --> 0:42:00.160 have we have the whole spectrum here. We still have 0:42:00.239 --> 0:42:03.680 the meat space stuff. We have the online communities that 0:42:03.719 --> 0:42:08.239 are specifically geared uh if not specifically geared overtly at 0:42:08.280 --> 0:42:13.120 least effectively, they're geared towards radicalization. And then you've got 0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:18.000 the stuff that everybody's using that can lead you to 0:42:18.080 --> 0:42:24.279 that pathway. So, um, how you feeling, bridget I mean, 0:42:24.360 --> 0:42:27.520 as you were describing the the issue, I almost felt 0:42:27.520 --> 0:42:30.200 this this paying in the pit of my stomach because 0:42:30.680 --> 0:42:33.319 we're up like, we are up against so much. There 0:42:33.360 --> 0:42:36.360 are so many you know, we have we have the 0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:40.480 in real life meat space organizing radicalizing people. We have 0:42:40.560 --> 0:42:44.840 these platforms that are engineered to radicalized folks. That scope 0:42:44.840 --> 0:42:48.920 of the problem is quite large. And I often wonder like, 0:42:49.120 --> 0:42:51.120 and I'm actually will be curious to know your thoughts. 0:42:51.520 --> 0:42:54.080 Do you think will ever tackle this? I do you 0:42:54.120 --> 0:42:55.880 think that we will ever get to a place where 0:42:56.080 --> 0:42:58.000 it is not just the norm for folks to be 0:42:58.080 --> 0:43:02.000 having these kinds of experiences being rad clies online. I 0:43:02.080 --> 0:43:13.560 think without without forcing the platforms through legislation, regulations, whatever 0:43:13.600 --> 0:43:18.600 it may be, to take a truly active role and 0:43:18.680 --> 0:43:23.399 to and also to be incredibly transparent with how their 0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:28.319 algorithms work, we won't get there. And companies are going 0:43:28.360 --> 0:43:32.520 to be extremely resistant to that, obviously, because the algorithm 0:43:32.880 --> 0:43:35.640 is that's the secret sauce for making the money, so 0:43:35.719 --> 0:43:38.600 you don't. The companies are very resistant to make that 0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:42.319 a transparent process because, for one thing, it could give 0:43:42.520 --> 0:43:46.120 a competitor the opportunity to beat them at their own game, 0:43:46.360 --> 0:43:48.960 make a better algorithm that does essentially the same thing 0:43:49.040 --> 0:43:51.880 but in a slightly different way, and then they're no 0:43:51.920 --> 0:43:55.279 longer king of the hill. Uh. I think it's gonna 0:43:55.320 --> 0:43:58.440 be really tricky. I think the moves we're seeing in 0:43:58.480 --> 0:44:01.920 the US government where there's the potential of breaking up 0:44:01.960 --> 0:44:05.640 some of these companies, I don't think that that's necessarily 0:44:05.680 --> 0:44:08.560 going to solve this problem. There's going to be there. 0:44:08.640 --> 0:44:12.280 There will need to be additional measures put in place 0:44:12.320 --> 0:44:17.080 for that too to be effective. Otherwise, all you're doing 0:44:17.160 --> 0:44:19.239 is taking one big piece and you're making a bunch 0:44:19.239 --> 0:44:21.439 of smaller pieces. But if they're all working the same 0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:24.480 way as the big piece was, we haven't really solved 0:44:24.480 --> 0:44:28.120 any issues. Um. I think everyone recognizes the amount of 0:44:28.120 --> 0:44:32.160 power these companies have there that's undeniable. The question is 0:44:32.160 --> 0:44:35.000 how do we deal with that. My answer from my 0:44:35.000 --> 0:44:38.799 my from a personal standpoint is not satisfying, because I 0:44:38.920 --> 0:44:44.280 just disengaged. I quit Facebook, But that that's one person, 0:44:45.239 --> 0:44:48.000 and I would never tell anyone else like, you've got 0:44:48.000 --> 0:44:51.719 to quit Facebook. I might believe it really hard, but 0:44:51.800 --> 0:44:53.759 I can't tell them that because that's the way a 0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:55.640 lot of people stay in touch with their friends and family. 0:44:55.680 --> 0:44:57.720 It's a way a lot of people rely on Facebook 0:44:57.760 --> 0:45:01.440 for their own businesses. I am in a luxurious position 0:45:01.480 --> 0:45:06.520 where I can disengage and uh, I got a dog. 0:45:06.600 --> 0:45:10.279 I'm okay. I might not talked about friends anymore, but 0:45:10.320 --> 0:45:12.880 I got a dog. Um, and I still got all 0:45:12.880 --> 0:45:15.200 those dog videos on YouTube too, So really I'm living 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:17.840 it up. But but yeah, I mean, like that's the 0:45:17.880 --> 0:45:20.160 that's the thing is that this is a huge problem, 0:45:20.239 --> 0:45:23.080 and like a lot of huge problems, there may not 0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:27.200 be a simple solution. There may not be one that 0:45:27.400 --> 0:45:32.080 is uh completely satisfying, and it may be really messy 0:45:32.160 --> 0:45:36.279 to implement solutions that themselves could have unintended consequences that 0:45:36.320 --> 0:45:40.960 will have to deal with later. Um. The important thing 0:45:41.040 --> 0:45:46.200 is really acknowledging that problem, putting more effort into understanding 0:45:47.200 --> 0:45:50.680 the scope and impact of that problem, and making sure 0:45:50.719 --> 0:45:54.319 that our our energy for solutions is directed in the 0:45:54.400 --> 0:45:57.560 right place. Because without really understanding the scope and the 0:45:58.160 --> 0:46:01.480 nature of the issue, the best we can do is 0:46:01.560 --> 0:46:04.719 try random solutions and hope they work. But with a 0:46:04.840 --> 0:46:08.719 deeper understanding, you can craft a pathway that is at 0:46:08.800 --> 0:46:11.920 least has a better chance of making a positive impact. 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:14.520 That's kind of it's the lame way of saying it, 0:46:14.600 --> 0:46:17.560 But the more I looked into this, the more I thought, 0:46:18.280 --> 0:46:21.839 we just don't have a deep enough understanding, and it's 0:46:21.880 --> 0:46:25.319 largely because we didn't take it seriously, like you were saying, 0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:30.160 bridget I mean, before Brexit, people were aware that there 0:46:30.160 --> 0:46:33.960 are lies posted on the internet because people lie. You know, 0:46:34.000 --> 0:46:38.280 wherever people are, we're gonna find falsehoods. But when Brexit happened, 0:46:39.160 --> 0:46:44.400 and after all the fallout about accusations that the support 0:46:44.400 --> 0:46:49.799 for Brexit was largely based off of unsupportable claims, that's 0:46:49.840 --> 0:46:53.759 where it kind of started, the snowball effect of Wow, 0:46:54.280 --> 0:46:57.400 we've really let this get to a place where we 0:46:57.440 --> 0:47:00.360 don't have a handle on it um and we honestly 0:47:00.400 --> 0:47:03.040 don't even know how bad it is, and we still 0:47:03.080 --> 0:47:06.640 don't five years later. So yeah, I mean I feel 0:47:06.719 --> 0:47:10.440 very similarly, but I am hopeful that we are finally 0:47:10.520 --> 0:47:13.680 taking it seriously. I wish we had gotten here three 0:47:13.760 --> 0:47:16.560 years ago, five years ago, ten years ago about understanding 0:47:16.600 --> 0:47:18.839 the impact that this has. But I'm glad that we're 0:47:18.840 --> 0:47:20.920 here now, and I think what we need to do 0:47:20.960 --> 0:47:24.360 now is have these honest conversations, put money behind the 0:47:24.480 --> 0:47:27.799 research to actually understand what's going on, because I think 0:47:27.800 --> 0:47:29.799 we're tackling it late. You know, I wish we had 0:47:29.800 --> 0:47:32.120 gotten there earlier. But I'm glad we're here now. And 0:47:32.600 --> 0:47:35.520 you know, you talked about how you deleted Facebook. I 0:47:35.560 --> 0:47:38.000 still have Facebook. I need it for work. Um, But 0:47:38.040 --> 0:47:40.600 I always say, you know, a lot of these issues 0:47:40.680 --> 0:47:44.680 are big systemic. You know, we're talking about your Mark Zuckerberg, 0:47:44.800 --> 0:47:46.839 so we're talking about policy level things that it's very 0:47:46.880 --> 0:47:49.359 difficult to feel as an individual like you have any 0:47:49.400 --> 0:47:53.279 impact over that. But and that's true, but I think 0:47:53.320 --> 0:47:56.600 we can all take small steps in our individual lives 0:47:56.640 --> 0:47:59.279 to assess and be critical of the role that platforms 0:47:59.280 --> 0:48:00.840 play in our own to get diets and how we 0:48:00.920 --> 0:48:04.000 use those platforms. And so you know, I would also 0:48:04.080 --> 0:48:06.760 never tell anybody to delete Facebook, especially in a pandemic 0:48:06.760 --> 0:48:08.920 where you might not have the ability to see your 0:48:08.960 --> 0:48:10.839 friends every day but you want to feel connected. But 0:48:11.200 --> 0:48:13.480 maybe you can delete Facebook from your phone so you're 0:48:13.520 --> 0:48:17.120 not carrying around a physical reminder of its presence on 0:48:17.200 --> 0:48:19.640 your person at all times. Right, maybe you only go 0:48:19.680 --> 0:48:22.600 on the browser, and you and and on your laptop 0:48:22.680 --> 0:48:26.040 or whatever, and you're deciding when you're gonna engage with Facebook. Right, 0:48:26.040 --> 0:48:28.680 maybe you're like, I have a new rule in my house, 0:48:28.760 --> 0:48:31.400 no phones and no phones in the bedroom. Right. You 0:48:31.440 --> 0:48:34.680 can we can all find ways of having an impact 0:48:34.760 --> 0:48:37.720 on the way that Facebook plays out in our personal 0:48:37.760 --> 0:48:40.160 media diets and how we use it in our personal lives. 0:48:40.200 --> 0:48:42.560 And so while we may not be able to have 0:48:42.719 --> 0:48:46.160 a huge impact on the grip that platforms have on 0:48:46.200 --> 0:48:48.640 our democracy and our discourse, those are small things that 0:48:48.680 --> 0:48:50.719 we can all do. You know, if you're gonna share 0:48:50.760 --> 0:48:52.960 something on Facebook, read it first. You know, before you 0:48:53.000 --> 0:48:54.719 comment on something, make sure that you read it. You know, 0:48:54.760 --> 0:48:59.560 just little things, little steps. Agreed, Agreed. I think also 0:49:00.120 --> 0:49:02.799 we should point out the fact that you and I 0:49:02.840 --> 0:49:06.000 also host shows where we get the opportunity to reach 0:49:06.000 --> 0:49:09.239 out to our listeners and to suggest to them that 0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:13.880 they incorporate qualities like critical thinking. I always partner critical 0:49:13.920 --> 0:49:16.560 thinking with compassion. I think if you have one without 0:49:16.600 --> 0:49:19.080 the other, things don't go so well. But when you 0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:22.600 got both you don't go too wrong. You can't you 0:49:22.600 --> 0:49:25.040 can't go wrong. Yeah, you really just got to employ 0:49:25.120 --> 0:49:28.879 both of those things. And I am so thankful that 0:49:28.920 --> 0:49:31.799 you joined me for this discussion, and I hope that 0:49:31.840 --> 0:49:35.759 our listeners really get an understanding. Like, the reason we 0:49:35.840 --> 0:49:40.880 talk about this is because the stakes are very high, 0:49:40.920 --> 0:49:45.480 and clearly, if you recognize there are elements of friends 0:49:45.600 --> 0:49:49.680 or family of yours who appear to be maybe going 0:49:49.840 --> 0:49:54.120 down a path, you should seek out resources to help 0:49:54.200 --> 0:49:57.680 you and perhaps help them. It's a very delicate thing. 0:49:58.040 --> 0:50:00.560 I certainly am not an expert to all you how 0:50:00.640 --> 0:50:03.440 to handle a situation in every situation is different, but 0:50:04.640 --> 0:50:08.399 that I'm seeing this real impact on people. I know. 0:50:08.520 --> 0:50:11.239 There was a person that I worked with years ago 0:50:11.800 --> 0:50:15.520 in a theatrical production, and several years ago I saw 0:50:15.600 --> 0:50:18.560 him making some statements that kind of had him going 0:50:18.560 --> 0:50:23.719 down the men's rights pathway, and uh it, that was 0:50:24.000 --> 0:50:26.359 a big warning sign at the beginning, but it has 0:50:26.760 --> 0:50:29.359 since gotten worse, and I just wish that I had 0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:36.000 recognized things earlier and perhaps been a a positive influence 0:50:36.040 --> 0:50:39.839 on his life too, and not have him go down 0:50:39.840 --> 0:50:44.279 that pathway quite so wholeheartedly. Um, people are their own people. 0:50:44.320 --> 0:50:46.680 They'll make their own decisions, but we can always be 0:50:46.760 --> 0:50:50.600 supportive and helpful in certain situations. And one way you 0:50:50.880 --> 0:50:54.040 can be supportive and helpful for yourself and for others 0:50:54.520 --> 0:50:57.360 is to subscribe to There Are No Girls on the Internet. 0:50:57.400 --> 0:51:00.319 Because it's an incredible show. I don't just say that 0:51:00.360 --> 0:51:03.320 because I am the executive producer of that show. I 0:51:03.400 --> 0:51:05.640 say it because it's I say it because if I 0:51:05.719 --> 0:51:10.799 had no involvement whatsoever, it's still an amazing show. In fact, 0:51:10.840 --> 0:51:13.480 I should I should point out I have a very 0:51:13.560 --> 0:51:16.080 light touch on that show. That show is amazing because 0:51:16.120 --> 0:51:20.560 of Bridget, because of Tari, and because of the incredible 0:51:20.560 --> 0:51:23.319 amount of work you you put into it. And uh, 0:51:23.520 --> 0:51:25.960 definitely go and check out Bridget show. There Are No 0:51:26.080 --> 0:51:29.359 Girls on the Internet. Um, see what all the all 0:51:29.400 --> 0:51:31.520 the all the accolades are about. Because this is a 0:51:31.560 --> 0:51:34.080 show that's received quite a few of them. Oh, I mean, 0:51:34.120 --> 0:51:35.880 I couldn't. I couldn't do it without you, John at 0:51:35.880 --> 0:51:38.920 that Entari. This means so much coming from you, you know, 0:51:39.120 --> 0:51:44.200 the tech podcast Guru. I got a poster of myself 0:51:44.200 --> 0:51:47.880 in the background. It's that's how important I am. I 0:51:47.920 --> 0:51:50.399 don't know if you notice that Bridget but that's that's 0:51:50.440 --> 0:51:53.200 me back there. That's if you ever wondered who's the 0:51:53.239 --> 0:51:55.399 kind of guy who hangs a poster of himself up, 0:51:55.440 --> 0:51:58.280 well it's it's me and apparently Donald Trump. I guess 0:51:58.360 --> 0:52:01.240 that's I'm not in good I'm not in good company, 0:52:01.360 --> 0:52:04.920 but I can't deny it. It's on the door. Uh, 0:52:05.120 --> 0:52:09.000 thank you guys for listening. Make sure you again subscribe 0:52:09.000 --> 0:52:10.680 to There Are No Girls on the Internet. Go check 0:52:10.719 --> 0:52:13.160 that out. Look at the list of shows, because there 0:52:13.160 --> 0:52:17.160 have been some really incredible episodes. You've had some amazing 0:52:17.239 --> 0:52:20.239 guests on that show, and uh, it just makes me 0:52:20.280 --> 0:52:23.120 want to become a better interviewer. So I thank you 0:52:23.200 --> 0:52:26.160 for that too, because that's been very inspirational to me. 0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:29.280 And if you guys have any suggestions for future topics 0:52:29.360 --> 0:52:32.040 of tech stuff, you can reach out to me on Twitter. 0:52:32.360 --> 0:52:35.120 Yes I'm I'm still active there and the handle to 0:52:35.239 --> 0:52:38.319 use this text stuff h s W and I'll talk 0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:45.960 to you again really soon. Text Stuff is an I 0:52:46.080 --> 0:52:49.560 Heart Radio production. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, 0:52:49.880 --> 0:52:53.080 visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 0:52:53.160 --> 0:52:54.680 you listen to your favorite shows.