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Speaker 1: and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't you never know stories
Speaker 1: of things we simply don't know the answer too. Hey, guys,
Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast I
Speaker 1: Am Devin, Joined as usual by Steve Yep. We we've
Speaker 1: been practicing for weeks. That's goods. Actually, yeah, probably actually,
Speaker 1: Today we're going to talk about a mystery that was
Speaker 1: suggested in um May of last year by Katrina or
Speaker 1: Katerina I'm not sure how I think it's Katrina to
Speaker 1: via email, so thanks. We've had a couple other suggestions
Speaker 1: of this since then, but that was the big one.
Speaker 1: It was the first one, big one, first one. Whatever. Anyways,
Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about Joseph Newton Chandler the
Speaker 1: Third ready that real name. Sorry, let's do the overview
Speaker 1: first on about July two, maybe July not quite true,
Speaker 1: which Joseph Newton Chandler the Third shot himself in the
Speaker 1: head with a thirty eight caliber Charter Arms handgun. It's
Speaker 1: like a little revolver. This then five shooter. Yeah. About
Speaker 1: a week later police arrived to investigate the death because
Speaker 1: the other tenants in the apartment complex that it smelled,
Speaker 1: and the landlord's just called the cops. It was the
Speaker 1: hottest days of the year that year. One of those
Speaker 1: jobs you just don't want. Yeah, pretty much. I knew
Speaker 1: somebody here had had a daughter who was obnoxious and
Speaker 1: anti social. She got a job doing with one of
Speaker 1: those cleanup crews you know. Paid. Well, yeah, I'm sure
Speaker 1: it does. Requires a strong stomach, that's really all it requires. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't require a huge skill set, but they paid
Speaker 1: you a lot. Yeah. So the police arrive and it's
Speaker 1: they deem it to be a totally normal suicide. They
Speaker 1: ran his dental records to confirm that it was in
Speaker 1: fact Joseph Newton Chandler. The third donal records matched. This
Speaker 1: was in Cleveland, Ohio. Pretty much done. Yeah, well okay,
Speaker 1: so maybe not. They did cremate the body. Shortly after that.
Speaker 1: They did an autopsy and then cremated the body, which
Speaker 1: is which is well, it's normal, normal procedure and this yeah,
Speaker 1: there was there was nothing initially to indicate anything others.
Speaker 1: So the person who was named as his will executor
Speaker 1: hired a probate lawyer and they start to go through
Speaker 1: Chandler's estate and and find out that actually this is
Speaker 1: the second time that Joseph Chandler the Third had died.
Speaker 1: The first was in a car accident in when he
Speaker 1: was eight years old. Yeah, so the mystery is who
Speaker 1: was Joseph Newton Chandler the third, Mark two Mark the
Speaker 1: more recent one? Yeah, so time for theories, right, was
Speaker 1: not doing anything with that name? So what the hell? Yeah,
Speaker 1: why not pick it? May as well just use it,
Speaker 1: just kidding, not theories yet, the probate lawyers are trying
Speaker 1: to place this two dollar legacy, which isn't nothing. I
Speaker 1: did the conversion even I mean, you know it was
Speaker 1: only fifteen is years ago, but it did the conversion.
Speaker 1: It's more than a hundred thousand dollars in today's money,
Speaker 1: and that's not nothing. When they started calling Chandlers, that
Speaker 1: all of the Chandlers that they could find in the
Speaker 1: East kind of where Chandler's mom was from, they quickly
Speaker 1: found out that Joey, the original Joseph Noon Chandler the
Speaker 1: Third had died in a car accident on December twenty
Speaker 1: one with his parents in Texas on Highway US Highway
Speaker 1: eighty two. That's a terrible Christmas. Yeah. They were on
Speaker 1: their way to spend Christmas with the extended family, with
Speaker 1: his father's extended family. UM, and they there's no details
Speaker 1: really about I've read the news articles from the local
Speaker 1: papers at the time, and there's not really any It
Speaker 1: doesn't say what happened. Though it was a tragedy, it
Speaker 1: wasn't extensively covered. So all three of them died and
Speaker 1: they were all buried in Texas. That would I mean,
Speaker 1: that would make Joey's identity We're gonna call original Joey,
Speaker 1: the original Joseph nowon Chandler. Yeah, we're gonna call him
Speaker 1: Joey because that's a lot of people referred him as that.
Speaker 1: UM and then Joseph noon Chandler the third will probably
Speaker 1: call Chandler. I might accidentally call him joe every once
Speaker 1: in a while, because you know, there's no I'm not dead. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not quite dead, not quite yet. Yeah. Anyway, it
Speaker 1: would make Joey a pretty good target for identity theft.
Speaker 1: You know, his parents are dead, he doesn't seem to
Speaker 1: have any close family relatives anything like that. So if
Speaker 1: somebody were suddenly to start being this person who knows,
Speaker 1: there's no parents to look up or anything like, oh yeah, no,
Speaker 1: there's there's nobody to catch it easily. So at this
Speaker 1: point in the case are our new case, not our
Speaker 1: old case, our two thousand two case. The U S.
Speaker 1: Marshals take over, as they do for a lot of
Speaker 1: cases like this. So let's go back a little bit
Speaker 1: to talk about Joey's life and then talk about how
Speaker 1: Joseph Chandler, the third Chandler became b Yeah Chandler Bank,
Speaker 1: how Chandler became Joey basically does that work? That works? Okay?
Speaker 1: Joey was born on March eleven, nineteen seven, two parents
Speaker 1: Ellen Chandler and Joseph Newton Chandler Jr. In the In
Speaker 1: the United States of America's Social Security numbers assigned you
Speaker 1: at birth. We know this, but it occurs to me
Speaker 1: that people who don't live here might not know that.
Speaker 1: But this didn't really start in earnest until nineteen thirty
Speaker 1: six was when I think the first Social Security number
Speaker 1: was assigned, and then the cards weren't issued until you
Speaker 1: were an adult and not continued until the seventies or
Speaker 1: something like that. So Joey would have never had a
Speaker 1: Social Security card, and it's likely that his birth certificate
Speaker 1: was somewhere at his parents house and just kind of
Speaker 1: got tossed. Yeah, I mean, his parents belonging. He's probably
Speaker 1: would have been somebody would have taken that. And then
Speaker 1: of course it just moves, and I mean it may
Speaker 1: it may have just been burned or I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: it could have just been gotten rid of because he died.
Speaker 1: You know, he is a certificate of birth so wide,
Speaker 1: you know, you shouldn't need that birth certificate anymore, and
Speaker 1: there's nobody interest to keep it these days. Obviously, you
Speaker 1: need your Social Security number to prove the your citizen,
Speaker 1: and you need your car. A lot of employers will
Speaker 1: require that you bring your actual cards what we can
Speaker 1: see it. Um. But again in those days, that was
Speaker 1: not the case. And you can get a replacement Social
Speaker 1: Security card, and you can get a replacement birth certificate
Speaker 1: these days, but you have to go through a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff to get it these days. Process. No, it's not.
Speaker 1: Several decades ago, it was actually pretty easy. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: turns out have we ever talked about. Joe might remember this.
Speaker 1: Back in the day when you used to be able
Speaker 1: to eat, buy a wallet and it would have a
Speaker 1: fake Social Security card in it. Does this bring a
Speaker 1: bell to you at all? So it was it was
Speaker 1: a thing to just be like and you could put
Speaker 1: your social Security card in here, no big deal. And
Speaker 1: it was obviously not a real social Security card, but
Speaker 1: it had a social Security number on it, and it
Speaker 1: what it was is it was the secretary at the
Speaker 1: office of the company that manufactured the wallets. So security
Speaker 1: numbers weren't that important of a thing, so they used
Speaker 1: her social security numbering who would actually be dumb enough
Speaker 1: to try to use this thing? And for decades people
Speaker 1: were using that as their actually security number, if I
Speaker 1: remember right. She had to eventually get a new one
Speaker 1: because it was just so out of control. That's insane,
Speaker 1: that's that's thing to do. It's just one of those
Speaker 1: weird things nobody really cares about. These are not important
Speaker 1: and then just backfired. Yeah, well, it's relatively easy to
Speaker 1: get a new Social Security card, not a number, but
Speaker 1: a card these days. I know because I looked into
Speaker 1: it because I thought I lost mine. Turns out my
Speaker 1: parents had it. Don't worry. But really you can as
Speaker 1: long as you're not getting I think it was you
Speaker 1: can get ten a year or something like that, some
Speaker 1: absurd number a year. I don't know. Maybe I mean this.
Speaker 1: I'm just doing this from memory. But as a US
Speaker 1: citizen who has a passport, all I would have to
Speaker 1: do is take my passport and they would say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's you. Yeah, great, no problem that. Obviously it's not
Speaker 1: the case then, so are to become someone else, you
Speaker 1: have to have their Social Security card and their birth
Speaker 1: certificate pretty much, and Chandler had both of these things. Now,
Speaker 1: we talked about this a lot, so I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: go ahead and like bite the bullet and talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about who can get vital records is what
Speaker 1: they call it. It's a birth certificates, original or certified
Speaker 1: copies of birth certificates or death certificates. And and you're
Speaker 1: going to reference organs specifically in this varies from it says,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine it varies. I really can't imagine it
Speaker 1: varies that much. Actually, probably varies from state to state.
Speaker 1: I just I can't. I mean, this seems totally logical
Speaker 1: to me, and I don't know why anybody would do
Speaker 1: it any other way, but he and I'm sure that
Speaker 1: in another state because I've seen things like this, like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's going to be that. I don't know, it's the same, Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's fair, that's fair. Yeah. So within the first hundred
Speaker 1: years following the date of birth, those records are totally restricted,
Speaker 1: which makes sense, right, yeah, because probably somebody isn't going
Speaker 1: to live past a undred although these days. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: if you are the person named on the record and
Speaker 1: your fifteen years are older, you can order a certified
Speaker 1: copy of a vital record and explain vital record. Again,
Speaker 1: it's a birth certificate or a death certificate, and I
Speaker 1: think there's I think there's like two other ones. But
Speaker 1: it has to do with your your status as a
Speaker 1: existing being. No, it's not like marriage certificates are a
Speaker 1: different thing. Your husband or wife or domestic partner who
Speaker 1: is registered by the state can order a vital record
Speaker 1: on you. A child, a parent, a step parent can
Speaker 1: order something on you. Uh well, steparent until you're eighteen
Speaker 1: can order a vild vital record, and your brother or sister, grandparents, grandchild,
Speaker 1: legal guardian, legal representative, authorized representative or government agency conducting
Speaker 1: official duties that get one. I know it's surprisingly a lot,
Speaker 1: there's a lot, but it's also it's a good list,
Speaker 1: I think. I mean, you know, there's definitely most eventualities. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it does open some stuff up, but you know, hey,
Speaker 1: when ordering a birth birth certificate, obviously you have to
Speaker 1: say what your relationship is. You have to be able
Speaker 1: to prove that it's you. But these are all things
Speaker 1: that you have to do now. Back then, I think
Speaker 1: it was as easy as writing a letter. If you
Speaker 1: had someone's Social Security number, for instance, you just write
Speaker 1: a letter and say this is my also Security number,
Speaker 1: this is me. I need a certified copy of my thing.
Speaker 1: And it was taking it face ut taken face yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: And then I know that that was true in the
Speaker 1: seventies and this is now becoming relevant. We're off our
Speaker 1: little side path, here we go. Chandler requested Joey's birth
Speaker 1: certificate in nine as well as a Social Security card.
Speaker 1: It would be the first social Security card that Joseph
Speaker 1: Newton Chandler. The third was issued, since he died when
Speaker 1: he eight, he didn't have one yet anyway. He wrote
Speaker 1: from Rapid City, South Dakota, which is where the both
Speaker 1: documents were mailed to. Kind of a shock behind a house,
Speaker 1: But it seems most likely to everybody who's investigated the
Speaker 1: case that he didn't actually ever live there, that he
Speaker 1: just checked the mailbox frequently, that it was kind of
Speaker 1: you know, nobody was really in there. Yeah, yeah, really smart.
Speaker 1: He moved to least East Lake, Ohio right after that.
Speaker 1: And a website that doesn't exist anymore outside of the
Speaker 1: way Back Machine, so you can see it on the
Speaker 1: way Back Machine. Hopefully we'll post a link to it,
Speaker 1: because that's pretty good website. It's called crime shadows dot com.
Speaker 1: They reported that they did a check on when Chandler
Speaker 1: ordered the documents, and they said that it had happened
Speaker 1: that actually the Social Security card had been issued in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three. I think you can probably chalk it
Speaker 1: up to you like crappy handwriting or smudge typewriter. I mean,
Speaker 1: three and eight are really close. If you yeah, if
Speaker 1: you look at I mean we do this all the time.
Speaker 1: We look at old photocopied typewritten documents that have been
Speaker 1: photocopied a half dozen times. They degrade in a three
Speaker 1: starts to look like an eight eight starts to look exactly.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, but I don't. I mean, it
Speaker 1: would be great to know for sure, But barring going
Speaker 1: to see those documents in person, the original documents, I
Speaker 1: don't think we all know. So I'm happy to stick
Speaker 1: with seventy eight? Are you guys happy to stick with?
Speaker 1: So we'll say that Chandler became Joey in nine. And
Speaker 1: I'm just now realizing how much like a friend's episode
Speaker 1: this sounds like I was not making reference for no reasons. Sorry, guys, Sorry,
Speaker 1: So where's Monica? She's coming? Don't okay? Investigators found that
Speaker 1: Chandler had probably lived in California for a time, maybe
Speaker 1: working with the U. S. Navy, and then he moved
Speaker 1: to Cleveland in nineteen seventy nine, and then he moved
Speaker 1: into his last apartment in nineteen eighties six in East Lake, Ohio.
Speaker 1: I've never seen this clarified. How do they determine where
Speaker 1: he lived? Like, I've never seen it specified. I can
Speaker 1: tell you actually the answer to that question. They it's
Speaker 1: on his job applications and his rental applications, so it's
Speaker 1: just supplied from him. Not necessarily true. We don't know
Speaker 1: that there's any truth to it based on a man
Speaker 1: who was living under assumed identity for twenty seven years. Okay,
Speaker 1: that makes me feel much better because I wondered if
Speaker 1: it was something like that, but I never caught it.
Speaker 1: I think that his Cleveland in seventy nine is documented
Speaker 1: because they think that's where he was working his first
Speaker 1: job as an electrical engineer, and then his moved to
Speaker 1: when he moved to East Lake, that was also documented,
Speaker 1: But his time in California is not document meanted. In fact,
Speaker 1: the company that he listed working for that was Contractors
Speaker 1: for the U. S. Navy, had no record of him
Speaker 1: ever working there. But again, he could have been working
Speaker 1: under a different name. It's possible. I don't really know.
Speaker 1: It could be a completely false lead. Also, frankly, I'm
Speaker 1: surprised that he got a job with putting a job
Speaker 1: that he like, you know, the job previous to his,
Speaker 1: and they didn't even bother calling them. But okay, it's seventies,
Speaker 1: but it's an electrical engineer. You would kind of want
Speaker 1: to know that that person knows what they're doing, wouldn't you.
Speaker 1: But it's the seventies and it's an era where again,
Speaker 1: you take things that people say it face now. And
Speaker 1: if a guy says I know how to do this,
Speaker 1: and you ask him some questions and he competently answers them,
Speaker 1: you believe him. Yeah. And also, they don't necessarily call
Speaker 1: all your references. They might call one or two. Maybe
Speaker 1: you would think they would call your most recent Yeah. Probably,
Speaker 1: But you know you can't overlook just laziness. That's the true,
Speaker 1: That's absolutely true. Yeah. Yeah, whoever it was doing, I
Speaker 1: I didn't find anything fishy because I didn't find anything
Speaker 1: because I didn't look for it exactly. Yeah. Chandler was
Speaker 1: an electrical engineering designer. As we've been kind of talking about.
Speaker 1: He did not have friends. I know that that's the
Speaker 1: thing that people say, I don't really have friends. No,
Speaker 1: he did not have friends. In fact, the guy who
Speaker 1: was the executor of his will was a co worker
Speaker 1: at his first job when he had two jobs that
Speaker 1: are documented that he actually worked in, and this first
Speaker 1: one was with ed Co Company ed Co Co and
Speaker 1: he worked with this guy Mark, I think it was Mark.
Speaker 1: It was Mark, and then he stated strongly that they
Speaker 1: were not friends. He actually, uh, when you know, Joseph
Speaker 1: Chandler asked him to be the executive as a state,
Speaker 1: he agreed to it, thinking oh, he's never gonna he's
Speaker 1: not gonna die. Well, he he really regrets that now,
Speaker 1: he absolutely regrets it. And in fact, the only reason
Speaker 1: that he became the executor um on the wheel is
Speaker 1: because he was on the lease. He was a co
Speaker 1: signer on the lease of chan Lar's most recent apartment,
Speaker 1: and that was because he went and was helping Chandler
Speaker 1: with some documents and found out that it was actually
Speaker 1: the landlord was going to be the co signer because
Speaker 1: he really didn't have anyone and Mark felt bad and said, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll be a co signer with you on your lease.
Speaker 1: You're probably a trustworthy guy. And then since he was
Speaker 1: the only name that they could definitively connect to him,
Speaker 1: they said, all right, it's your job to execute the will.
Speaker 1: He was never actually named as the executor of the
Speaker 1: will by Chandel like Chandler never asked him to be
Speaker 1: the executor. I would never do that co sign for
Speaker 1: a co worker that I felt bad for. I mean again,
Speaker 1: things are much different now, but in terms of what
Speaker 1: happens when you're a co signer and somebody filters out,
Speaker 1: but no way. Yeah, probably not. Yeah, so, I mean
Speaker 1: he did. He really genuinely didn't have friends. Mark the
Speaker 1: executor was the closest thing to a friend. And I
Speaker 1: know that you will find his last name out there,
Speaker 1: but in more recent interviews with him, he has asked
Speaker 1: that his last name be left off of it. So
Speaker 1: we're going to continue to just honor that. Even though
Speaker 1: it's really easy to go find out what his last
Speaker 1: name is, we're not going to be just spreading it
Speaker 1: around the Chandler was just kind of mean from all
Speaker 1: the coworker accounts. He was kind of an on ball. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was really weird. He uh. There's one incident that
Speaker 1: the co workers always recount, and this is genuinely the
Speaker 1: only antecdote that exists about Chandler, right, and it is
Speaker 1: that he drove to l l being in Maine, which
Speaker 1: is like a twelve hour drive from the Ohio location.
Speaker 1: Um East Lake closer. I don't know. I think there is,
Speaker 1: but I don't know. In the seventies, what you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know why, Oh yeah, in the eighties or
Speaker 1: maybe the nineties, but I mean even then, like I
Speaker 1: don't know really where things were. But he drove twelve
Speaker 1: hours to l being and he did one circle around
Speaker 1: the parking lot and there were no spots, so he
Speaker 1: just turned around and went drove home. And he was
Speaker 1: quoted as saying, if they don't have a parking spot
Speaker 1: for me, they don't have my business. That's fair, is
Speaker 1: it seems a little psycho really? But yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: that was a little crazy. So he drove for twenty
Speaker 1: four hours for not Yeah, yeah, that's not normal. He
Speaker 1: reportedly created a static noise machine or a white noise
Speaker 1: machine that he had with him at all times, and
Speaker 1: he listened to it in his headphones pretty much all
Speaker 1: the time. I think he, you know, even when he
Speaker 1: was out on jobs and things like that, which I
Speaker 1: I recognize as a crazy thing. But also, if you
Speaker 1: don't really like people or you don't want to interact
Speaker 1: with people, that's a really good way to tune people out.
Speaker 1: It's canceling, that's what I mean. That's a that's a
Speaker 1: great way to if you cannot think while other people
Speaker 1: are just nattering along next to you, you got to
Speaker 1: block him out, or if you can't stand other people.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's even as simple as just being
Speaker 1: annoyed by people or some sounds can really bug you too.
Speaker 1: I know that there's certain sounds that really irritate the
Speaker 1: hell to me, you know, So maybe there was a
Speaker 1: lot of those sounds going on his office. Yeah, there's. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's definitely a couple of things that are more recently
Speaker 1: diagnosed disorders that are recognized as actual mental disorders that
Speaker 1: will make people like legitimately angry. That are noises that
Speaker 1: are totally normal noises. But oh, I know, you know,
Speaker 1: like I've had coworkers and people eat the yogurt out
Speaker 1: of the little plastic thing and you get to the
Speaker 1: bottom and it's always scritch, scrich. You know. That's that's
Speaker 1: definitely that noise dressed me crazy. Yeah. Chandler told his
Speaker 1: co workers that he had been married twice, once to
Speaker 1: a Cuban woman who did not speak English. He spoke
Speaker 1: of a sister Mary. I don't think so. I've never
Speaker 1: seen anything that indicated that he did. I don't, so
Speaker 1: don't ask me how they communicated. It would be an
Speaker 1: interesting they were married. You don't communicate when you're married.
Speaker 1: I've I've heard that. Yes, he said that he had
Speaker 1: a sister, Mary R. Wilson, who lived in Columbus, Ohio,
Speaker 1: and he listed her on some of his forms, but
Speaker 1: the address was vacant, and Mary Wilson was probably totally
Speaker 1: made up. There's really really good chance yea too, didn't he?
Speaker 1: He sometimes said he had a brother. His stories about
Speaker 1: himself were not usually the same. Although although the the
Speaker 1: sister that he used, the address was the same for
Speaker 1: all the applications. And I think even he referenced her
Speaker 1: when he uh when he wrote for the cards or something.
Speaker 1: There was something earlier that he referenced her in as well,
Speaker 1: But you know, again, who knows. The investigators on this
Speaker 1: case have some kind of descriptive things to say about
Speaker 1: Chandler as well. They say that he lived a hermit's life.
Speaker 1: His apartment was sparse but had a few books, and
Speaker 1: the official profile is that he suffered obsessive compulsive disorder,
Speaker 1: and he didn't drink or smoke, and was anti social
Speaker 1: and seldom appeared to be at ease in public. So
Speaker 1: total interviewer, introvert, yeah A. One of the one of
Speaker 1: the other interesting traits is he was an engineer, of course,
Speaker 1: and so engineers have a certain kind of personality kind
Speaker 1: of thing. He never wrote in cursive script. He i
Speaker 1: was wrote in block block letters, all all caps. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know, from what everybody can tell, he was
Speaker 1: really really intelligent and they think they knew that he
Speaker 1: knew what he was doing, that he was really living
Speaker 1: the perfect life to keep off the radar. I mean,
Speaker 1: he wasn't what he was doing to with his false
Speaker 1: identity and yeah, exactly. Yeah, he didn't spend a lot
Speaker 1: of money, He didn't buy anything that would raise red flags.
Speaker 1: He didn't partake in any kind of habitual behavior where
Speaker 1: he didn't smoke it and drink and go out, so
Speaker 1: you know, he did he led a quiet life. He
Speaker 1: had they call it a modest bank account, which is
Speaker 1: probably true. And he really didn't move around a lot,
Speaker 1: you know, he was he was he was really good
Speaker 1: at attracting attention, not attracting attention. Yeah, sorry, yeah, well yeah,
Speaker 1: I could see why you wouldn't move that off And
Speaker 1: if you've got to get somebody to co sign the
Speaker 1: lease every time you do it, yeah, I would imagine,
Speaker 1: though I don't think that's right because after your first
Speaker 1: apartment that you've been in for five years and they
Speaker 1: called the landlord and he says, always paid on time,
Speaker 1: No big deal, then you don't need a co signer.
Speaker 1: It's when you're when you're fresh, Yeah, you got no history, right,
Speaker 1: or when you're moving around a lot. And I believe
Speaker 1: he had a credit history, did he? Yeah? Yeah. In fact,
Speaker 1: he was so good at this whole living off the
Speaker 1: radar thing that investigators initially thought maybe he was in
Speaker 1: the long term witness protection program of some kind, but
Speaker 1: that was ruled out quickly by the U. S. Marshals
Speaker 1: who were investigating the case because the same program mostly
Speaker 1: they would know Mark the not front co worker, the
Speaker 1: co worker, the only co worker, said that he had
Speaker 1: actually invited Chandler to come to a Halloween party, totally
Speaker 1: expecting him to not show up. And this was just
Speaker 1: kind of after the whole well, it was like three
Speaker 1: or four years after he had signed the lease with
Speaker 1: Chandler and Chandler got his apartment in six Yeah, you're right,
Speaker 1: you're right, you're right. I don't know why I had
Speaker 1: eighty nine in my head somehow. Yeah, so, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, it was a while later, but he definitely
Speaker 1: says that he tried to at least speak with Chandler
Speaker 1: once a year. Um, you know, he really felt for
Speaker 1: the guy. I think, Um, but it turns Chandler showed
Speaker 1: up to the party. Um, they dispect him to that
Speaker 1: at all. They were sure that he was not going
Speaker 1: to show up, and he did. He showed up and
Speaker 1: he was dressed in a full like full out gangster
Speaker 1: you know. He had the pinstripe sue and the wide
Speaker 1: lapel and the cigar and the hat, and um, that's
Speaker 1: a little lot. I mean, I've seen reported that he
Speaker 1: only had like one change of clothes and his entire house.
Speaker 1: So that's I mean, that's a pretty big length to
Speaker 1: go to for a Halloween party. But they go and
Speaker 1: he looks pretty sharp in that suit, he does, And
Speaker 1: that's actually those are the pictures that you'll see a
Speaker 1: lot on the internet. Those those two pictures of him
Speaker 1: looking slightly nefarious, you're the only candid photos of him.
Speaker 1: They are, and he does. It's definitely worth looking at
Speaker 1: those because he does look pretty different than he does
Speaker 1: in the one picture, the I D picture. He's dental
Speaker 1: record is on file, as mentioned, but as also mentioned,
Speaker 1: it was made during the twenty three or so years
Speaker 1: that he was Chandler obviously like an eight year old.
Speaker 1: Joey's dental records probably wouldn't be super helpful in a
Speaker 1: case like this, but the dental records are attributed to him,
Speaker 1: so so they checked those before they burned the body.
Speaker 1: They checked those to identify him, to make sure he
Speaker 1: was the guy who was on the lease. Right, they
Speaker 1: found the dentist who the local dentist who had worked
Speaker 1: on his tooth. Sound correct. I presume that's how they didn't.
Speaker 1: I woul that on file. I hope that his boy,
Speaker 1: they're gonna be disappointed in mighty Yeah, me too. I'm
Speaker 1: kind of curious about the dentist. His dnist noticed nothing
Speaker 1: unusual that is dental work, but I guess I haven't
Speaker 1: seen any reports, and I think they would have mentioned it.
Speaker 1: They also have DNA on file from some old medical visits.
Speaker 1: I guess he he had advanced colon cancer and he
Speaker 1: had gone through some treatment, but he insisted on paying
Speaker 1: for everything in cash, which again, you know, sounds like
Speaker 1: something this guy would do, and so he just couldn't
Speaker 1: afford it. Apparently, his first round of treatments cost him
Speaker 1: eighty thou dollars and he paid in cash, and then
Speaker 1: they wanted him to do chemo. But so that's where
Speaker 1: they had the DNA samples from you know, all the
Speaker 1: testing and stuff like that, so they do have DNA
Speaker 1: samples of Chandler. They don't have fingerprints though, because again
Speaker 1: they cremated the body, so nobody really examined his fingers.
Speaker 1: But also they they thought, well, surely he hadn't you
Speaker 1: know he had They had an entire apartment full of stuff.
Speaker 1: Surely there's at least one good print, but no all smudges,
Speaker 1: all smudges, And we'll talk about that in a little bit,
Speaker 1: but I will just mention that he was an electrical engineer,
Speaker 1: so you know, burning your fingertips with Yeah, it's easy
Speaker 1: to do, super easy, So it wouldn't really surprise me
Speaker 1: a whole lot. But again, we can talk about some
Speaker 1: other reasons that that might be. We can also standing
Speaker 1: We'll talk about some other reasons of why that might
Speaker 1: be in a minute. And then his autopsy revealed, on
Speaker 1: top of the terminal colon cancer, that he also had
Speaker 1: male pattern baldness, which leads most people to believe that
Speaker 1: he's wearing a hairpiece in his I D picture, which
Speaker 1: I'm willing to believe. You know, there are so few
Speaker 1: pictures of him and the two candid ones. He's wearing
Speaker 1: a hat, so you can't tell what's under there, So
Speaker 1: I don't know what he looked like in life, you know.
Speaker 1: I don't know if or even if he wore a
Speaker 1: hair piece. I don't know about any of that. So
Speaker 1: one final note before we move on to our next
Speaker 1: little thing that we need to talk about, is that
Speaker 1: Chandler would sometimes apparently just go dark, like just disappear
Speaker 1: for a couple of days, sometimes a month at a time,
Speaker 1: but mostly just a couple of days. And Mark said
Speaker 1: that when he asked him about it, Chandler would just say, uh,
Speaker 1: they were close, they're getting close, And that was the
Speaker 1: only description he would give him. They were getting close. Ye,
Speaker 1: that's weird. It's super weird, right, Aliens, Aliens, I'm telling you.
Speaker 1: So here's the next thing we need to talk about,
Speaker 1: and that is that someone familiar to many of you
Speaker 1: takes a big interest in this case, or at least
Speaker 1: did a year ago. I don't know if he's moved
Speaker 1: on or not, because he tends to do that, but
Speaker 1: that person is James Renner. And I'll be totally upfront
Speaker 1: and transparent in saying that I did not reach out
Speaker 1: to him for this story because of the weird, non
Speaker 1: responsive stuff that we received when we were researching the
Speaker 1: mar Murray case. Uh, and I didn't really want to
Speaker 1: go through that again, so we did not talk to
Speaker 1: Mr Renner about this case. But we did look at
Speaker 1: a lot of research through his blogs that he's written,
Speaker 1: some Reddit posts, and also um an article that he
Speaker 1: said doesn't exist on the internet more anymore, but we
Speaker 1: found on the way back machine. So we've read. I
Speaker 1: feel we've done our due diligence on this one. Renner
Speaker 1: claims that Chandler was a sexual deviant, and I don't
Speaker 1: really know why. I think it's a bit sensationalist that
Speaker 1: he claims this, but will run through this anyway. He
Speaker 1: posted a threat on Reddit a year ago that made
Speaker 1: this claim, and again he doesn't really there's nothing that
Speaker 1: he really says to back it up. His strongest bit
Speaker 1: of evidence is that on February four nine, a guy
Speaker 1: calling himself Joseph Newton Chandler. I think there was a third,
Speaker 1: but that could be admitted from the story I don't
Speaker 1: know shows up at a local hospital. Is that in
Speaker 1: air quotes the local hospital bits. I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's air quotes. It's kind of like local hospital with
Speaker 1: lacerations on his penis. Uh. He said that he heard
Speaker 1: himself trying to masturbate with a vacuum cleaner, which I
Speaker 1: feel like, isn't that weird of a thing. And he
Speaker 1: was just, I mean, okay, yes, it's not uh like normal,
Speaker 1: It's not the most normal thing. But if you're a
Speaker 1: lonely guy, like, yeah, what the heck? And I I mean,
Speaker 1: Joe know something. Yeah, there's there's stores things I did
Speaker 1: vague to confirm this. I take to Pete Elliott's from
Speaker 1: the U. S. Marshall Service. He was investigating this, and
Speaker 1: he said that the er story actually is true. Then yeah,
Speaker 1: well and I'm not okay, And so I'm not saying
Speaker 1: that that story didn't happen. That's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I am saying that lonely older guy showing up now
Speaker 1: saying I hurt myself. You know, masturbating with a vacuum
Speaker 1: is not weird. And the other thing that I want
Speaker 1: to say about this is that the doctor didn't note
Speaker 1: that he thought that Chandler was probably older than he
Speaker 1: reported being, but he didn't say anything about not believing
Speaker 1: his story. About the vacuum. I think the implication that
Speaker 1: Renters trying to make is that this guy was like
Speaker 1: cutting himself or like doing some kind of like huge
Speaker 1: self harm. But I really think that the guy just
Speaker 1: got his penis stuck in a vacuum. Any young man
Speaker 1: listening right now, don't try that. Don't try it. Please,
Speaker 1: don't try it. Don't don't don't do it. Well, I'll
Speaker 1: let me give you another piece of advice, and that is,
Speaker 1: when you go to the e R with something embarrassing
Speaker 1: like this, don't give him your real name and pay
Speaker 1: in cash. Yeah, I used to. I I had a
Speaker 1: girlfriend years ago. Yeah, she worked at the She worked
Speaker 1: at the billing of the billing records office. So this
Speaker 1: woman shows up with let's just say, a very embarrassing
Speaker 1: sexually related injury at the er she's got. She gives
Speaker 1: him her name and medical insurance and everything. And in
Speaker 1: this office that my girlfriend worked at the time, there
Speaker 1: were more than a hundred people there, and of course
Speaker 1: every person in that office saw a copy of that
Speaker 1: EER reports and also a claim went out to an
Speaker 1: insurance company, and I'm sure hundreds of people at that
Speaker 1: insurance company saw that claim. And so like I said,
Speaker 1: fake name pain Cash. Yeah, yeah, totally so. I just
Speaker 1: I don't think that the doctors didn't. I think they
Speaker 1: believed him. I think that was totally normal. I think
Speaker 1: it's totally sensationalist of Runner to say that this makes
Speaker 1: this guy sexual deviant. But okay, you know, accidents happened.
Speaker 1: Really Yeah no, I mean again, it happened, and I
Speaker 1: don't think anybody is saying it didn't happen. I just anyway.
Speaker 1: Renner goes on to say that police found quote weird
Speaker 1: gadgets he created for purposes unknown, and a strange child
Speaker 1: peanut sticker from nineteen sixty five, and a hobby tool
Speaker 1: nobody has yet identified. I'm laughing because the hobby tool
Speaker 1: was show obvious. Literally within like thirty seconds, somebody identified it.
Speaker 1: It's a label maker. It's a label It's a raised
Speaker 1: label maker from the seven. It's got the black or
Speaker 1: colored tape that you punch and the letters stand out
Speaker 1: why against it And a lot of electrical engineers use
Speaker 1: it to label gear or parts or whatever's got pistol
Speaker 1: handle on it. Yeah, and then the round thing on
Speaker 1: the top and the back of the still label strip
Speaker 1: and you stick it on and it's got your name
Speaker 1: on it everything. Yes, yeah, and you know again it's like,
Speaker 1: oh weird. He has a sticker from nineteen five, like
Speaker 1: people have people and stuff, and even if it wasn't stuff,
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's like a good job sticker. Maybe
Speaker 1: he got it as an award, maybe he found it
Speaker 1: on the street and thought it was cute. It's not
Speaker 1: that weird. And yes, as far as I know, those
Speaker 1: black boxes have yet to be identified. Well, one of
Speaker 1: them does make the white noise well, I don't know
Speaker 1: about they're too big. I thought that's what Pete Elliott. Oh,
Speaker 1: he said one of the ones that one of the
Speaker 1: white noise generator. Maybe it was like you know, portable
Speaker 1: white noise generator and housewhite noise generator. They look they
Speaker 1: look like the first gen of like shapeshifter tech from
Speaker 1: fringe to It's totally I mean, I looked at these
Speaker 1: things and YouTube Bill this. I work with a bunch
Speaker 1: of engineers, and it looks like the early prototype versions
Speaker 1: that the guys that I work with would make where
Speaker 1: they drill a couple of air holes in it so
Speaker 1: we can breathe and radiate heat and YadA, YadA, YadA,
Speaker 1: and he scribbled on the back of it commands. But
Speaker 1: it looks like I swear I saw this similard. Maybe
Speaker 1: think that it's a power inverter. That was my thought too,
Speaker 1: that's where you saw it. It's my script maybe, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that it looked like an early version of that, and
Speaker 1: it's a thing that the patent wasn't filed for until so,
Speaker 1: I mean, it could have been tinkering, but it does.
Speaker 1: It looks like that that black pack that comes on
Speaker 1: your laptop, what you're talking about, Yeah, yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: I thought too. Well. Know, what I was talking about
Speaker 1: is like a converter, because there's a power inverter and
Speaker 1: power converter from DC to a C right. And one
Speaker 1: of the things is that I was looking it up
Speaker 1: as the inverters are used for motors because you can
Speaker 1: you can adjust the voltage on him. And you know,
Speaker 1: the first thing that made me think of was you
Speaker 1: ever played with an old model train set, like really
Speaker 1: old control boxes that have the dial And it totally
Speaker 1: made me think of some homemade version of one of those. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean there's on the bottom it says on on
Speaker 1: two sides or no two runner in pencil, and you know,
Speaker 1: people have said, well, why didn't he use the label maker,
Speaker 1: and it was like, well, maybe he was out of tape,
Speaker 1: or maybe he didn't want it to be permanent, maybe
Speaker 1: he wasn't ready for it to be permanent. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, there there are a lot of things they
Speaker 1: could be. And uh, you know, it sounds like Pete
Speaker 1: Nose or Mr Elliott sorry, Mr Elliott knows, Marshall Elliott knows.
Speaker 1: You know that at least one of them is the
Speaker 1: white noisemaker, so that's identified. And you know, I just
Speaker 1: think they're not really that nefarious. No, they're weird, but
Speaker 1: they're wed. You say, if he sat at home and
Speaker 1: he just worked on stuff all the time, why not
Speaker 1: Yeah let me try this. Maybe I can you know,
Speaker 1: make the better mouse trap. Yeah exactly, Yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: he might just might have just actually gotten a lot
Speaker 1: of joy out of just soldering stuff, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he could have. The other thing that Runner says is
Speaker 1: that the gun was purchased. The gun that Chandler used
Speaker 1: to kill himself was purchased in Ohio a few months
Speaker 1: prior to his suicide. But that's not true. About half
Speaker 1: of the other investigation that I've seen says that it
Speaker 1: was purchased in Texas between nineteen sixty six and nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy six from a gun store that doesn't exist anymore,
Speaker 1: and their records were destroyed Lle Texas. Yeah, but well
Speaker 1: the records couldn't have been destroyed though, because when when
Speaker 1: you have a federal firearms licensed. Well, I thought there was.
Speaker 1: I thought the whole thing was there was like a
Speaker 1: fire at the I mean, I don't know, okay, because otherwise,
Speaker 1: but when you when you close your business down, you
Speaker 1: give up your federal firearms license, you got to send
Speaker 1: all your books to the B A T. F. Right,
Speaker 1: which would make sense. But was that the same process
Speaker 1: at that time. Let's say that this this, this place
Speaker 1: disappeared in the late seventies, would that would that process
Speaker 1: have been in place? The process? The process was in
Speaker 1: place after the nineteen six Gun Control Act, So yeah,
Speaker 1: I would have probably been then. Okay, Well but maybe
Speaker 1: not if he bought it in sixty six, it could
Speaker 1: have been before they were really keeping records. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: thought he bought it more recently. Well, yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: really know. Again, I'm fifty fifty on this because half
Speaker 1: the reporting I see says a couple of months before,
Speaker 1: and the other half says, I don't know, there's a
Speaker 1: big window there. I have a question, and I think
Speaker 1: I know what the answer is going to be. Okay,
Speaker 1: where did Renner get the information that it was purchased
Speaker 1: within months prior to the suicide? Is that not provided?
Speaker 1: You know? One of the reasons that I have a
Speaker 1: bit of a problem with James Runner is that he
Speaker 1: doesn't He's not great at saying exactly where he got
Speaker 1: the information from. He's really good at saying and I
Speaker 1: found out that this thing, And you're like, okay, but
Speaker 1: where did you find that out? And you know in
Speaker 1: the I'm sure in his books he's much better. But like,
Speaker 1: I don't okay, I'm not made of money. I can't
Speaker 1: buy everything. I presumed that that was going to be
Speaker 1: that's the situation because we've encountered this before, but I
Speaker 1: just wanted to double check. Yeah, okay, So are you
Speaker 1: guys ready to talk about theories? Yeah? I actually like
Speaker 1: how you've labeled the theory section who could it be? Now?
Speaker 1: The minute work? Who could it be? Now? It's we're
Speaker 1: going to just do enough betical order. The theories are right?
Speaker 1: Who Who's Chandler. So the first one is Colin Hay,
Speaker 1: the lead singer for Minute Work. Uh no, not alphabetically now, Oh,
Speaker 1: I was really hoping that's why you titled the section
Speaker 1: that No, damn sorry actually has nothing to do with
Speaker 1: Men Work. I just had that song stuck in my head.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. It is actually a famous singer on the
Speaker 1: suspect list, there is, It's true. Yeah, just wait, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: So the first we have pictures in our script, so
Speaker 1: sorry all over you'll, Yeah, but I just thought it'd
Speaker 1: be nice while we're sitting here talking for us to happen.
Speaker 1: So the first one is Stephen Craig Campbell. And I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna go ahead and preface this whole thing by
Speaker 1: saying that literally almost every single one of these could
Speaker 1: be an episode in and of themselves, individuals on each
Speaker 1: individual suspect. So we're just going to try and really
Speaker 1: keep it short. But I can't make any promises because
Speaker 1: they're all really really fascinating. Yeah. Campbell is on America's
Speaker 1: most wanted list for crimes he committed in three, specifically
Speaker 1: for attempted first degree murder and and making a bomb.
Speaker 1: He has a few known aliases. One is Fred Campbell
Speaker 1: and the other Stephen Murphy. Yep, we got a Jonah Steve.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I could be Fred. I guess Okay, anyway,
Speaker 1: what's up next? Fred? Well, So, Campbell decided that he
Speaker 1: did not like his ex wife's new boyfriend Nobody. He
Speaker 1: was jealous, so he decided to make a bomb and
Speaker 1: put it in a toolbox his toolbox, uh, and put
Speaker 1: it on the porch, thinking that you know, the husband
Speaker 1: would be like, oh tools, and you know open it
Speaker 1: would is attracted to a box of craftsmen. Well, listen,
Speaker 1: I don't think that Campbell's like the most sound thinker anyway.
Speaker 1: Long story short, his wife, his ex wife, finds it instead,
Speaker 1: but she's suspicious of it and pokes it with a
Speaker 1: broom and it explodes. It takes off the entire back
Speaker 1: end of the house and her hand, but she lives,
Speaker 1: so it almost ended up killing her instead. Campbell was
Speaker 1: arrested and admitted to the whole thing and posted bail
Speaker 1: and promptly skipped it and has never been seen again,
Speaker 1: except for maybe once he might have been arrested under
Speaker 1: one of his other identities and posted bail and skipped again.
Speaker 1: Or escaped or something. He was a pretty strong suspect
Speaker 1: as the UNI bomber as well for a while. So
Speaker 1: here's here's some interesting things about Campbell. He was an
Speaker 1: electrical and chemical engineer. He was born in California, where
Speaker 1: Chandler spent quote unquote spend some time, supposedly spend some time.
Speaker 1: Campbell fled from Cheyenne, Wyoming, which is only three hundred
Speaker 1: and eight miles from Rapid City, South Dakota, where the
Speaker 1: social Security card and birth certificate request were made for
Speaker 1: Joey Listen reported sightings of Campbell happened in the Virgin Islands,
Speaker 1: and you know, Chandler might have had Cuban wife, and
Speaker 1: the Virgin Islands in the in Cuba are like kind
Speaker 1: of close, right, Yeah, I'll go to Virgin Islands. I'll
Speaker 1: check out. Yeah, me too. Yeah. And some people say
Speaker 1: that Campbell was kind of just a crazy person anyway,
Speaker 1: and had multiple Social Security numbers and birth certificates of
Speaker 1: other people for years prior to get that's a great idea,
Speaker 1: but he that he had started doing that even before obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, in the seventies and the early seventies, so
Speaker 1: that he has a pretty solid that's a pretty solid suspect.
Speaker 1: The reason in the suspect is because he wears glasses.
Speaker 1: It kind of looks like it kind of looks like
Speaker 1: a young version of Chandler. I mean, he does. You
Speaker 1: have to admit the mug shot on the I D
Speaker 1: picture look vaguely similar. And I know a lot of
Speaker 1: that is because of the glasses, but they do look
Speaker 1: vaguely similar to But let's just talk about let's just
Speaker 1: talk about the problems. Right. Campbell was six ft or
Speaker 1: maybe even six too, and Chandler was five seven, maybe
Speaker 1: five eight on a good day. You know, people say,
Speaker 1: well he shrunk, He shrunk because he was getting older.
Speaker 1: Campbell had curly hair. Chandler did not, although again we
Speaker 1: don't really know that for sure because they're comment, sorry,
Speaker 1: I had long hair once. Yeah, well, I mean, but
Speaker 1: it was backwards. The thing is that like, Campbell had
Speaker 1: curly hair and Chandler had straight hair quote unquote. But
Speaker 1: it's just counting the fact that he was probably wearing
Speaker 1: away but you don't, we don't know it was probably.
Speaker 1: But also, you know, perm's worth thing, so he Campbell
Speaker 1: could have had a perm. The timeline, the timeline doesn't
Speaker 1: really match very well. Campbell didn't really become a fugitive
Speaker 1: until like ten years after Chandler's surfaced. Their eye colors
Speaker 1: not the same, and Campbell was born in forty eight,
Speaker 1: which means that he would be ten years younger than
Speaker 1: Joey would And if anything, people thought that Chandler was
Speaker 1: older than he then he said he was not younger.
Speaker 1: So it would be very impressive if you happened to
Speaker 1: be ten years younger than you were claiming, and people
Speaker 1: kept thinking, oh, no, that's too young for you. Living hard, yeah,
Speaker 1: really hard. I mean, I like the theory because they again,
Speaker 1: I think they look kind of similar. And to address
Speaker 1: the draw line issue, apparently Campbell had a rich uncle
Speaker 1: that might have paid for some minor plastic surgery quote
Speaker 1: unquote that wouldn't be minor surgery. Though, I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 1: gonna point this out right now, and I'm gonna say this,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna apply this to every candidate that we have.
Speaker 1: Is that if you look at Chandler's nose and you
Speaker 1: look at the nostrils, He's kind of got an upturned
Speaker 1: nose because you you see his nostrils when he's looking
Speaker 1: straight ahead and nobody else does that. So it's almost
Speaker 1: kind of the the pixie knows because he's looking straight ahead,
Speaker 1: but his his his schnas is pointing up. Nobody else
Speaker 1: seems to have that nose. Stop showing me your nostrils, Stefen. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, can you see them when you like, when
Speaker 1: you hold your head. But but he's he's looking he's
Speaker 1: looking relative totally straight ahead. He doesn't look like he's
Speaker 1: tipped back. So that's why I have a problem with it. Yah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. But yeah, I would say that he is
Speaker 1: not a good suspect. Okay, oh yeah, the age thing
Speaker 1: is right well, and the hyper eye color, yeah, alright,
Speaker 1: who else could it be? Well, it could be uh
Speaker 1: D B. Cooper like Dan Cooper. There's not no resemblance.
Speaker 1: And again, the only thing we have to compare to
Speaker 1: is a composite sketch of Dan Cooper. Right, we don't
Speaker 1: have any actual photos of Dan Cooper. Cooper hijacked a
Speaker 1: plane in nineteen seventy one. Yeah you know that, right,
Speaker 1: Okay that you just you just gave me a fright
Speaker 1: that I you're right, yeah, I mean, Chandler was probably
Speaker 1: on the lamb from something. But I think I don't
Speaker 1: think he was Cooper. Do you think I do? Well,
Speaker 1: it would have been the wrong age. Of course, Again,
Speaker 1: people said he looked older, but Cooper was supposedly white
Speaker 1: in his mid forties people guests. Yeah, I know, I
Speaker 1: loved I looked at a lot of that stuff and
Speaker 1: I kept trying to find what people how old people
Speaker 1: thought Cooper was, and that was it was almost impossible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: people are just saying there, yeah, yeah, but he would
Speaker 1: have been too old. Yeah, but yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: Cooper had a different personality. He was He was chatty
Speaker 1: and friendly with it with the stewardesses. And also he
Speaker 1: drank and smoked. Of course, if it was Cooper, maybe
Speaker 1: he go up one on the wagon eventually at some point.
Speaker 1: It's kind of hard for me to picture dB Cooper
Speaker 1: just like being a hermit though, yeah, yeah, and and
Speaker 1: you know, an electrical or electrical engineer and just not Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think Yeah, I don't think that either. And
Speaker 1: in the late seventies, you know, there's no reason for
Speaker 1: Cooper to go on the lamb. I mean, the police
Speaker 1: were not hot on his trail. Yeah that was when,
Speaker 1: so you know, only seventies. Keeper was not hiding under
Speaker 1: your identity. He was. He was actually hiding money on
Speaker 1: the banks of the Columbia River that got burned a
Speaker 1: little bit we found in the eighties. Yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, so he had no reason to assume the
Speaker 1: false identities. I would agree with thats were nowhere near
Speaker 1: closing in on him. Yeah, I would agree with that totally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's move on to the next one. Okay, our next
Speaker 1: guy is John Dial, John Victor Dial. Excuse me. I
Speaker 1: mostly included this one for fun and because you'll see
Speaker 1: at places. But um, we're going to debunk it pretty
Speaker 1: quick here. John Victor Dial went a wall from his
Speaker 1: station at Howard Air Force Base in Panama in June
Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty six, or actually he left service. I
Speaker 1: don't know if he was honorably discharged, dishonorably discharged, or
Speaker 1: he went a wall. He married at twenty three years
Speaker 1: old a Panamanian woman named Elsa, and they probably had
Speaker 1: at least one child, maybe two. People say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, Chandler said that he had a Cuban wife,
Speaker 1: and uh, maybe actually she was Panamanian and maybe yeah
Speaker 1: he was on a stake, and yeah, maybe he was wrong.
Speaker 1: I mean, actually, you know, Cuba and Cuba and Phantom
Speaker 1: are kind of similarly shaped. They're long and skinny, they
Speaker 1: are vaguely similarly shaped. Yet it would be pretty that'd
Speaker 1: be an easy mistake to make. Yeah. Well, the spoilers
Speaker 1: are that, you know, John Dial has since resurfaced and
Speaker 1: he's safe and everything's fine, and he's not Chandler because
Speaker 1: he contacted his sister after he wasn't dead, he wasn't dead.
Speaker 1: Who else could it be? Well, it could be Jim Morrison.
Speaker 1: I checked. I checked the end of that, and the
Speaker 1: end of that. Does seem to believe that Jim Morrison
Speaker 1: faked his own death? Yeah, they do, although I don't
Speaker 1: think Jim Morrison could ever live like that. Though I
Speaker 1: don't think so. Well, I want of the thing too,
Speaker 1: you know. I looked up a picture of Jim Morrison.
Speaker 1: Jim Morrison had long hair. This guy has short hair. Yeah.
Speaker 1: There's no way, Yeah, I know, yeah, there's no way.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. Uh. Next next theory is um a Soviet spy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I got this one from that. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you saw this. I did. I did, and I was
Speaker 1: kind of thinking, well, do I want to leave it
Speaker 1: in do I not want to leave it in And
Speaker 1: then when we talked about talking to Marshall elliott I
Speaker 1: just thought, okay, well yeah we should and he he
Speaker 1: didn't say that this wasn't necessarily a strong contender. He said,
Speaker 1: he just says, some people believe that maybe it was
Speaker 1: a Soviet spy, and maybe there's something to this. Actually,
Speaker 1: as it turns out, you know, one of the big
Speaker 1: problems with Handler is figuring out how he found Joey
Speaker 1: in the first place. Right, it's a fairly obscure that,
Speaker 1: you know, the family, it wasn't a huge car accident.
Speaker 1: There was just a little tiny blurb. It would have
Speaker 1: been some big news in their hometown. It wasn't even
Speaker 1: I looked. I looked at the news reports and it
Speaker 1: was you know, in the town that they were from,
Speaker 1: there was literally in the obituary section there was a
Speaker 1: little like three sentenced thing on their death, and then
Speaker 1: in the town they crashed, there was just a little,
Speaker 1: tiny like two paragraph thing. It was huge news. Um,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have made a splash. It wouldn't be one
Speaker 1: of those things that people would think, oh, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: so finding his identity is one of the huge Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you have to have a big spive you're actually
Speaker 1: doing it for you, or you knew the family. Well,
Speaker 1: that's what I was thinking when I talked to Marshall
Speaker 1: Elliot and I was, you know, I was like, I
Speaker 1: was thinking that maybe would have been like a school
Speaker 1: a classmate of Joey's or somebody who knew him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a theory, or potentially a not so
Speaker 1: close relative. And I was asking about that. Actually it's
Speaker 1: like and and I just I just thought it would
Speaker 1: make that suggestion to him, but he was actually way
Speaker 1: ahead of me on that checked out. I've checked all
Speaker 1: that and they've they've got some d n A. And
Speaker 1: I asked him, based on the idea that it was
Speaker 1: possibly somebody who was like a cousin or a second
Speaker 1: cousin or something like that, who would have known about this.
Speaker 1: And so I asked him, are they going to exume
Speaker 1: or have the exhumed the bodies of the family of
Speaker 1: the Chandler family, And he said, they're not at that
Speaker 1: stage yet. You said it might still happen, but that's
Speaker 1: kind of parents. Yeah, yeah, and resuming the parents and
Speaker 1: just to see if it was maybe if there were
Speaker 1: any close market. I would I would question how much
Speaker 1: usable DNA there would be at that point. Well, there
Speaker 1: is that, you know, I don't know, but he's he
Speaker 1: said that it's it's a possibility that might happen eventually,
Speaker 1: but it's kind of a last ditch sort of thing
Speaker 1: because obviously digging up bodies it's not not the first
Speaker 1: go to things. No, no, no, it's really frowned upon. So,
Speaker 1: I mean that could happen in this case, actually could
Speaker 1: get solved. Yeah, well it turns out it was a relative.
Speaker 1: So but we're talking actually about Soviet spies right now,
Speaker 1: not family members. Yeah, that's okay. So, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: the fingerprints are a pretty big indicator that this could
Speaker 1: be a thing if we think, okay, maybe he didn't
Speaker 1: burn his fingertips off on accident all the time. This
Speaker 1: is a thing that Soviet spies and people who were fleeing, well,
Speaker 1: people who were Nazis that we're trying to avoid persecution did,
Speaker 1: is they mutilated their own fingerprints with you know, acid
Speaker 1: or seeing them down or whatever so that they would
Speaker 1: never leave usable prints, which it kind of seems like
Speaker 1: Chandler did. Because it's incredible that he had an entire
Speaker 1: house and not a single usable print from the lot
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah. I mean that's I don't think it
Speaker 1: was a Nazi because assuming he was born in nine
Speaker 1: seven is somewhere close to around there, he would have
Speaker 1: been the youngest Nazi ever. Yeah, yeah, exact, Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know I would agree may Hitler. Yeah. But one
Speaker 1: of the things that apparently I was just gonna say,
Speaker 1: one of the things that apparently also backs this up
Speaker 1: is that there was a very old, outdated computer found
Speaker 1: in Chandler's house. Uh, and apparently it got damaged in
Speaker 1: the move to the evidence locker, so they just threw
Speaker 1: it out, which is so convenient. But UM investigator Lewis
Speaker 1: was the first investigator, and he said that he had
Speaker 1: a guy look at the comp year before it had
Speaker 1: been moved, and that there had been some recent web
Speaker 1: searches that included UM like Nazism and plastic explosives. So um,
Speaker 1: somehow I guess that helps. I don't really know. I
Speaker 1: think before you like head overseas on your Soviet sleeper
Speaker 1: raging assignment, they teach you how to make plastics. I
Speaker 1: think that's true, And I also don't think you have
Speaker 1: to search Nazism. You probably kind of know what it's about, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's I would easily just kind of justify that as
Speaker 1: he probably watched something on biography or something about the
Speaker 1: war and decided to I want to see if there's
Speaker 1: some other information on this one topic. And you know,
Speaker 1: I mean people do people do that all the time. Yeah, actually,
Speaker 1: it is. It's it's actually I think more people should
Speaker 1: do a little research on the Nazis because people actually
Speaker 1: a lot of people have the wrong idea about the Nazis.
Speaker 1: A lot of people don't totally understand what the Nazis
Speaker 1: were about. Yeah, absolutely, I mean there were there were sex,
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, But people don't really understand their
Speaker 1: ideology as well as they think they do. Yeah. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the only problem is is, you know, there's
Speaker 1: a problem I think Joe has with it mostly, which
Speaker 1: is that you know, this isn't it's not a secret.
Speaker 1: Using the identity of a dead child is like, that's
Speaker 1: not that's yeah, I mean it's been around. The first
Speaker 1: place I ever heard about this was they have the
Speaker 1: Jackal by Frederick FORSTT. You know, and then well this
Speaker 1: guy gets it, and I guess this is how the
Speaker 1: Internet believes that this guy went out to a graveyard
Speaker 1: and just walked around until you found a dead family.
Speaker 1: The law enforcement does not believe that. That's why they
Speaker 1: believe that there was some sort of connection, not necessarily
Speaker 1: family or close friends, but there. But because walking around
Speaker 1: a graveyard, it's like, you know, that'd be a long,
Speaker 1: tedious process. Yeah, and that's that's that's banking on the
Speaker 1: fact that they're all going to be buried together in
Speaker 1: a single plot. Well, it's banking on that. It's also
Speaker 1: banking on the fact that you know that John Smith
Speaker 1: isn't a black guy. There's all kinds of factors there,
Speaker 1: and so it's a lot easier to just you know,
Speaker 1: go through newspaper articles rather than walk around walk around cemetery. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, and I guess you know, apparently Chandler
Speaker 1: did once tell Mike uh that he had something he
Speaker 1: wanted to tell Mark. I'm sorry that he had something
Speaker 1: he wanted to tell him someday, but I don't know
Speaker 1: what it was. That he was a Zodiac killer, could
Speaker 1: have been sleeper age, yeah, or maybe he wanted to
Speaker 1: tell him about the vacuum cleaner into Yeah, maybe it's possible. Uh,
Speaker 1: next time, I don't want to say about this. The
Speaker 1: web search is though, is that if he was a perv,
Speaker 1: then why didn't he have like stuff like kinky vacuum
Speaker 1: tricks and stuff like that. Isn't he was using the incognito?
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe yeah. Next up is Gene Isaac
Speaker 1: Ste's professor Gina isaac sts professor. Stees was incarcerated at
Speaker 1: a state prison in Columbus, Ohio because he was a gem.
Speaker 1: He was convicted of beating his estranged wife and unborn
Speaker 1: child to death. He admitted it and was sentenced in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, and he wasn't a model inmate. He
Speaker 1: eventually became a clerk there even and one of the
Speaker 1: added benefits of him being a clerk there is that
Speaker 1: instead of wearing the you know, old striped pajamas, he
Speaker 1: got to wear khakis and look like a normal human being.
Speaker 1: And also the clerk's office was like literally right next
Speaker 1: to the door out that wasn't apparently left very locked
Speaker 1: all the time. Attended at least yeah, attended at least
Speaker 1: so seven years and four days after his initial incarceration
Speaker 1: on February eighteen, seventy. Steve's just walked out that door.
Speaker 1: I recently read in a book about the Accatraz prison
Speaker 1: break back in the sixties. It was not nearly as
Speaker 1: easy for those kids. It was not well. I mean,
Speaker 1: people say he's one of those guys too. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: are people who have a sideline this theory. But that's
Speaker 1: one of the things that also gets brought up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have a suspicion those guys all drowned. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: would guess that as well. This was pretty well planned,
Speaker 1: I think, because He's wasn't reported missing to the least
Speaker 1: for like three days after because of protocol. That's what
Speaker 1: they say, Well, do you have an inside man? I
Speaker 1: know they're the prison did a head count every day,
Speaker 1: but they didn't do a head count until the evening,
Speaker 1: and Steve's walked away in the morning, and so he
Speaker 1: wasn't counted missing until that night. And then for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: the police or the prison guards just decided that the
Speaker 1: police probably didn't need to know about that for a
Speaker 1: couple of days. I don't know, maybe they thought they
Speaker 1: had just misplaced him or something. I'm not really sure. Anyway, obviously,
Speaker 1: by the time the police found out the trail was
Speaker 1: totally cold and they had nothing to go on, so
Speaker 1: he's actually never been found. Steeves, and I guess I
Speaker 1: can see some similarities a little bit, not really really slight,
Speaker 1: but it's really slight between him and everybody else it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Steve, Steve's is a slightly bigger
Speaker 1: guy like he's you know, he's got a little chub
Speaker 1: on him. So I don't I guess I don't really
Speaker 1: know what he would look like if he lost a
Speaker 1: bunch of weight and was about the same weight as
Speaker 1: Chandler was. Um, but I still don't think they really
Speaker 1: looked that much alike, that they like anything alike realistically.
Speaker 1: You know, Uh, Steeves was born in nineteen thirty two,
Speaker 1: so he would have actually been a couple of years
Speaker 1: older than Joey, which would have corresponded well with you know,
Speaker 1: the fact that the thought that he was older he
Speaker 1: did have male pattern baldness. But again, you know, I
Speaker 1: can't find any information about stees other than what I've
Speaker 1: just told you, so I don't know. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: it's a it's an interesting theory, but it's definitely not
Speaker 1: air tight. Yeah, I think that I think the Chandler
Speaker 1: has got a like a longer face, longer nose. I
Speaker 1: think that too, but I it's hard to tell. It's
Speaker 1: their faces have totally different shapes. They have their eyebrowsers
Speaker 1: shaped differently. Their noses are mean, you did either of
Speaker 1: you guys look at that. That was the one thing
Speaker 1: that really I really found enjoyable with crime Shadows dot com,
Speaker 1: the one that's in the way back machine. Whoever ran
Speaker 1: that took the time to make gifts of superimposing photos
Speaker 1: on top of each other just with Campbell? Was it
Speaker 1: just with Campbell? I thought there was more than one,
Speaker 1: But it was really kind of funny because the way
Speaker 1: that it was done was just kind of hacked together.
Speaker 1: It's not great, that's true, and it's it was. It
Speaker 1: was just so funny that that was their tool to
Speaker 1: make him prove that he's this person. OK, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I agree with you. Uh. Next, Chandler could be the
Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer DA killer. This is not an episode on
Speaker 1: the Zodiac Killer. This is not an episode on the
Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer. Let's talk about the Zodiac Killer. Zodiac and
Speaker 1: Chandler were in California. If if Chandler was indeed in
Speaker 1: California around the same time the Zodiac Killer just loves
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper And you know, Joseph Chandler was the
Speaker 1: name of the head inspector in the Ripper case. From
Speaker 1: to eight lovers in Ohio were killed in a similar
Speaker 1: fashion to the Zodiac which is you know, like just
Speaker 1: when we can really confirm that Chandler was in Ohio
Speaker 1: and then he gave it up for twenty years and
Speaker 1: killed himself. I yeah, right, I mean, that's that's that's
Speaker 1: my biggest thing, is um they One of the things
Speaker 1: about the Zodiac Killer is that he definitely had much
Speaker 1: more control over his compulsion than many serial killers. But
Speaker 1: when we get down to it, he was a serial killer,
Speaker 1: and I don't think that he would have been able
Speaker 1: to not kill anybody for god, how many years is that?
Speaker 1: It's like twenty years almost exactly. You know, if I
Speaker 1: was going to be a serial killer, you know what
Speaker 1: I would do. I would just change my m OH
Speaker 1: all the time. Well that's what Zodiac did. But that's
Speaker 1: what the Zodiac did. That's why he was never really caught.
Speaker 1: He changed his m O. And you know, I guess
Speaker 1: it's possible that there was the rand Um murder here there,
Speaker 1: and he just got really good at covering it up
Speaker 1: and all of that stuff. But again, I just don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't think this is it. But I did read
Speaker 1: one Internet comment which I just loved, and it was
Speaker 1: that this person said that she saw the Zodiac Killer
Speaker 1: when she was six um and that when she saw
Speaker 1: the mug shot of Chandler, or not the mug shot,
Speaker 1: the I D picture of Chandler, she immediately knew it
Speaker 1: was the same man. I saw a picture of Santa
Speaker 1: Claus once and I knew it was Santa Claus. I
Speaker 1: did too, And I mean, you know the other thing
Speaker 1: is right, like, you can't this isn't today. You know,
Speaker 1: in eight you can't just do a Google search for
Speaker 1: you know, deceased Joseph Chandler and come up with a
Speaker 1: name and then go and get the records. So how
Speaker 1: would how would one if we're going to run down
Speaker 1: the rabbit hole of the Zodiac loved Jackie Repperon wanted
Speaker 1: to have his next alias B Joseph Joseph Chandler. How
Speaker 1: did he find this? Absolutely that would be look if
Speaker 1: for a needle in a haystack? Would and why that
Speaker 1: particular name you know, out of all the names and
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, you know, Yeah, why that guy, Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: I don't know. So I don't think that's a good theory.
Speaker 1: Zodiac and everybody likes to tie everything, everything to the zodiac.
Speaker 1: It is the go to you know. The interesting thing
Speaker 1: about the Zodiac killers, he really uh, he really didn't
Speaker 1: kill that many people, you know, and and I just
Speaker 1: got everybody's attention. Yeah, he's just the big one out there.
Speaker 1: There's people out there killed ten times as many people.
Speaker 1: And yeah, people don't even know their names, but they
Speaker 1: didn't taunt the letters. So we're still trying to break
Speaker 1: the code. Yeah they are. Yeah, I guess there's one
Speaker 1: last theory, and that's just some random person avoiding I
Speaker 1: don't know, child support, you know, bills or literally insert
Speaker 1: anything here. Well there's that guy that just recently there's
Speaker 1: that article the found him in Europe I think it was,
Speaker 1: and he'd been missing for six years from the States.
Speaker 1: Six tears. Yeah, it doesn't matter. There was a typo
Speaker 1: in the original headline and it said he was missing
Speaker 1: for six tears. I didn't see that one. But he
Speaker 1: was gone for six years. His family didn't know where
Speaker 1: he was, and then they find him and he's like, oh, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I'm fine. No, I don't I don't want to talk
Speaker 1: to you people. No, no, and he just like he
Speaker 1: won't have any contact with his family. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: what John John Dial was doing. I mean, he just
Speaker 1: didn't want to have contact with their family. And then
Speaker 1: one day, you know, finally, I think it got to
Speaker 1: the point where he said, oh my god, you guys,
Speaker 1: I'm not okay, fine, I'm alive. Yes, I'm alive. People
Speaker 1: people have fallings out with family all the time and say,
Speaker 1: you know what, you're a bunch of jerks. I'm never
Speaker 1: talking to you again, and move and never talk to
Speaker 1: him again. Although you don't necessarily need to steal someone's
Speaker 1: identity to do that, especially in the seventies. No, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to disagree with that at all, but it's
Speaker 1: people do weird stuff to really really take it as
Speaker 1: far as they could. And and he was he was
Speaker 1: an hardball, so he may have said, you know, his
Speaker 1: he seemed to have a very methodical side to him,
Speaker 1: so he may have said, to do this, I have
Speaker 1: to do this, and I have to do that. And
Speaker 1: so he went ahead and he did all those things,
Speaker 1: even though he probably could have just moved to another
Speaker 1: the state and never given them his phone number. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it would have been really easy for him. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: I I told the you guys, though, I went ahead
Speaker 1: and checked the FBI FBI vault for this name. The
Speaker 1: Joseph was his middle name again Newton, Thank you, Joseph
Speaker 1: Newton Chandler. Nothing comes up on Joseph Newton Chandler the third.
Speaker 1: But I found some interesting results for Joseph Newton Chandler,
Speaker 1: some of which makes sense, some of which I make
Speaker 1: absolutely no sense. Um, like the Black Panthers. Um. But
Speaker 1: there was the Dillinger gang from the thirties, which the
Speaker 1: time frame doesn't work on that. Uh. There was the
Speaker 1: Bremer kidnapping, which was a gang gangster kidnapping, which was
Speaker 1: in the late thirties, I believe. Um. But that's that
Speaker 1: kind of brought the FEDS down on him and they
Speaker 1: took the entire gang out. Um. There's another guy by
Speaker 1: the name of Ralph Row. He comes up in it,
Speaker 1: but again he's another gangster from the thirties who's killed.
Speaker 1: But the one that actually was really interesting to me
Speaker 1: is that the name came up in documents about Jonestown. Jonestown,
Speaker 1: the drinking the flavor Aid happened in late seventy eight,
Speaker 1: so it's possible that he was an early UM defector,
Speaker 1: or he survived the whole thing and just went I
Speaker 1: never want to be found by these people again. I'm
Speaker 1: changing who I am. Understandable now, It's true his name
Speaker 1: came up in the files about Jonestown. Was he actually
Speaker 1: a memori? Actually the problem is is that I didn't
Speaker 1: think to check the vault until today, and it was
Speaker 1: in one of those PDFs that's a hundred and some
Speaker 1: odd pages long, and it's all photocopied. I'm not easily readable, right,
Speaker 1: So I looked at him, and so I just started
Speaker 1: skimming through the results, but I couldn't find exactly where
Speaker 1: it was. But I just said, I was like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, that's actually it's one of those big things
Speaker 1: that people may never want to be associated with. They
Speaker 1: just up and leave because of it. Yeah, except for
Speaker 1: that's just the same name. Yeah, that's the problem with it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the problem. I guess. The other thing that would
Speaker 1: be interesting is if he was connected to you know,
Speaker 1: the Dillinger or like any of the mob you know stuff.
Speaker 1: The fact that he went dressed the one time he
Speaker 1: ever went to address that party, he went dressed as
Speaker 1: a gangster is kind of interesting. Yeah. Well, I mean
Speaker 1: I don't think the time frame really necessarily lines up.
Speaker 1: But no, and I looked up a you know, unless
Speaker 1: he was like a kid. Maybe he was like a
Speaker 1: ten year old kid who saw something and uh it
Speaker 1: was witness protection and it just was so long standing that,
Speaker 1: you know, the Marshalls didn't even have any I don't
Speaker 1: think so. I mean, I'm just speculating. I looked stuff
Speaker 1: about because there's there's speculation on the internet that he
Speaker 1: was a gangster who was on the run. Not necessarily
Speaker 1: a witness protection which on the run, but it is
Speaker 1: it's just so impossible to find who disappeared, because guys
Speaker 1: in the mob disappeared all the time. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: think I put it in the same the same stand
Speaker 1: as I do with the zodiac. It's an easy go to, Yeah,
Speaker 1: easy whoa, Well, he was hiding, it was hiding. Well,
Speaker 1: he must have been of the mob. That's the easy answer.
Speaker 1: Is it's really easy. Who knows he had a secret,
Speaker 1: He wanted to get away from somebody, hiding the long
Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean, you know, Marshall Elliott has quoted
Speaker 1: on the internet is saying that he's very certain that
Speaker 1: that Chandler was a violent fugitive m but you know,
Speaker 1: everybody who ever encountered him in his life said they
Speaker 1: didn't have the sense that he was violent at all.
Speaker 1: Although maybe that's why, you know, he's got the headphones
Speaker 1: on all the time. He's a recluse because he just
Speaker 1: if he knows, he knows if he interacts with people
Speaker 1: too much, he might become violent. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what people know it was to get older too. I mean,
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe as violent crimes or crime days were behind,
Speaker 1: or maybe they were you know, alcohol, Yeah it could be.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe he had a problem with alcohol, that's
Speaker 1: why he didn't drink. Yeah, it could have been. Do
Speaker 1: you guys have anything else you want to talk about
Speaker 1: with this, because there's a bajillion could have gone. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: this is an unsatisfying one where I just don't have
Speaker 1: a good answer. We'll stay tuned though, you never know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I could probably dig up a few bodies, maybe they'll
Speaker 1: solve it. When I talk to Pete Elliott today, he said,
Speaker 1: he said, you know, police, send any any information you
Speaker 1: turn up, police, send it my way. He's still actively
Speaker 1: pursuing the case. Yeah, he is, And so listeners out there,
Speaker 1: anybody has any evidence, so you know, shoot it our way.
Speaker 1: We'll forward it onto the marshal world. Yeah, don't send
Speaker 1: it in yourself. We'll do it for you. We'll take
Speaker 1: the credit. Well yeah, we'll totally give you credit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: If you do want some credit, then fine, fine, fine,
Speaker 1: we'll find a way to get you hooked up with
Speaker 1: the Marshals or send you a T shirt or something,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever gives you a free podcast or something
Speaker 1: like that. That we can probably do that. Yeah. Well, um,
Speaker 1: if you want to see any of the links, I
Speaker 1: think probably will post at least one of the links
Speaker 1: that is connected through the way back machine. Um, and
Speaker 1: then a couple other things. So if you want to
Speaker 1: find those links without having to find them yourselves, which
Speaker 1: is kind of pain, I can tell you that'll be
Speaker 1: on our website that's thinking sideways podcast dot com. You
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Speaker 1: we love. Thank you so much, absolutely, it is. It
Speaker 1: is amazing. We wholly appreciate it. Um. I know that
Speaker 1: it seems that there's a little bit of confused and
Speaker 1: sometimes in the way Patreon works with the amount you're
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Speaker 1: So all of that having been said, I think we're
Speaker 1: just going to go ahead and get on out of here.
Speaker 1: I think so it's time we solved this one. This
Speaker 1: is the last. All right, bye everybody, Bye, guys,