1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:05,160
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by code breaking termites. Instead,

2
00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:09,640
Speaker 1: it's supported by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon.

3
00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 1: Visit patreon dot com slash thinking sideways to learn more

4
00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:29,760
Speaker 1: and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't you never know stories

5
00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:35,120
Speaker 1: of things we simply don't know the answer too. Hey, guys,

6
00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,960
Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast I

7
00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:48,400
Speaker 1: Am Devin, Joined as usual by Steve Yep. We we've

8
00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,879
Speaker 1: been practicing for weeks. That's goods. Actually, yeah, probably actually,

9
00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,600
Speaker 1: Today we're going to talk about a mystery that was

10
00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,600
Speaker 1: suggested in um May of last year by Katrina or

11
00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,720
Speaker 1: Katerina I'm not sure how I think it's Katrina to

12
00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,319
Speaker 1: via email, so thanks. We've had a couple other suggestions

13
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,720
Speaker 1: of this since then, but that was the big one.

14
00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,480
Speaker 1: It was the first one, big one, first one. Whatever. Anyways,

15
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,200
Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about Joseph Newton Chandler the

16
00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:23,600
Speaker 1: Third ready that real name. Sorry, let's do the overview

17
00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:30,600
Speaker 1: first on about July two, maybe July not quite true,

18
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,280
Speaker 1: which Joseph Newton Chandler the Third shot himself in the

19
00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:37,160
Speaker 1: head with a thirty eight caliber Charter Arms handgun. It's

20
00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,640
Speaker 1: like a little revolver. This then five shooter. Yeah. About

21
00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,960
Speaker 1: a week later police arrived to investigate the death because

22
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 1: the other tenants in the apartment complex that it smelled,

23
00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,800
Speaker 1: and the landlord's just called the cops. It was the

24
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,560
Speaker 1: hottest days of the year that year. One of those

25
00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 1: jobs you just don't want. Yeah, pretty much. I knew

26
00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,040
Speaker 1: somebody here had had a daughter who was obnoxious and

27
00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,440
Speaker 1: anti social. She got a job doing with one of

28
00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,200
Speaker 1: those cleanup crews you know. Paid. Well, yeah, I'm sure

29
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,480
Speaker 1: it does. Requires a strong stomach, that's really all it requires. Yeah,

30
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,960
Speaker 1: I didn't require a huge skill set, but they paid

31
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:18,080
Speaker 1: you a lot. Yeah. So the police arrive and it's

32
00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,079
Speaker 1: they deem it to be a totally normal suicide. They

33
00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,200
Speaker 1: ran his dental records to confirm that it was in

34
00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:31,079
Speaker 1: fact Joseph Newton Chandler. The third donal records matched. This

35
00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:37,840
Speaker 1: was in Cleveland, Ohio. Pretty much done. Yeah, well okay,

36
00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,240
Speaker 1: so maybe not. They did cremate the body. Shortly after that.

37
00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,200
Speaker 1: They did an autopsy and then cremated the body, which

38
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 1: is which is well, it's normal, normal procedure and this yeah,

39
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,960
Speaker 1: there was there was nothing initially to indicate anything others.

40
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,440
Speaker 1: So the person who was named as his will executor

41
00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,280
Speaker 1: hired a probate lawyer and they start to go through

42
00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:04,520
Speaker 1: Chandler's estate and and find out that actually this is

43
00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,359
Speaker 1: the second time that Joseph Chandler the Third had died.

44
00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,679
Speaker 1: The first was in a car accident in when he

45
00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,720
Speaker 1: was eight years old. Yeah, so the mystery is who

46
00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:20,600
Speaker 1: was Joseph Newton Chandler the third, Mark two Mark the

47
00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,880
Speaker 1: more recent one? Yeah, so time for theories, right, was

48
00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:26,919
Speaker 1: not doing anything with that name? So what the hell? Yeah,

49
00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:28,920
Speaker 1: why not pick it? May as well just use it,

50
00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,360
Speaker 1: just kidding, not theories yet, the probate lawyers are trying

51
00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,640
Speaker 1: to place this two dollar legacy, which isn't nothing. I

52
00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:38,520
Speaker 1: did the conversion even I mean, you know it was

53
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,760
Speaker 1: only fifteen is years ago, but it did the conversion.

54
00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,839
Speaker 1: It's more than a hundred thousand dollars in today's money,

55
00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:48,080
Speaker 1: and that's not nothing. When they started calling Chandlers, that

56
00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,480
Speaker 1: all of the Chandlers that they could find in the

57
00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:56,520
Speaker 1: East kind of where Chandler's mom was from, they quickly

58
00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,840
Speaker 1: found out that Joey, the original Joseph Noon Chandler the

59
00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,400
Speaker 1: Third had died in a car accident on December twenty

60
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:10,360
Speaker 1: one with his parents in Texas on Highway US Highway

61
00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,240
Speaker 1: eighty two. That's a terrible Christmas. Yeah. They were on

62
00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,520
Speaker 1: their way to spend Christmas with the extended family, with

63
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,960
Speaker 1: his father's extended family. UM, and they there's no details

64
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,239
Speaker 1: really about I've read the news articles from the local

65
00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 1: papers at the time, and there's not really any It

66
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,680
Speaker 1: doesn't say what happened. Though it was a tragedy, it

67
00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,719
Speaker 1: wasn't extensively covered. So all three of them died and

68
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,440
Speaker 1: they were all buried in Texas. That would I mean,

69
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,880
Speaker 1: that would make Joey's identity We're gonna call original Joey,

70
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,000
Speaker 1: the original Joseph nowon Chandler. Yeah, we're gonna call him

71
00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,520
Speaker 1: Joey because that's a lot of people referred him as that.

72
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,120
Speaker 1: UM and then Joseph noon Chandler the third will probably

73
00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,440
Speaker 1: call Chandler. I might accidentally call him joe every once

74
00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,599
Speaker 1: in a while, because you know, there's no I'm not dead. Yeah,

75
00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,800
Speaker 1: I'm not quite dead, not quite yet. Yeah. Anyway, it

76
00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,719
Speaker 1: would make Joey a pretty good target for identity theft.

77
00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:07,760
Speaker 1: You know, his parents are dead, he doesn't seem to

78
00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,320
Speaker 1: have any close family relatives anything like that. So if

79
00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,960
Speaker 1: somebody were suddenly to start being this person who knows,

80
00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,919
Speaker 1: there's no parents to look up or anything like, oh yeah, no,

81
00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,120
Speaker 1: there's there's nobody to catch it easily. So at this

82
00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,720
Speaker 1: point in the case are our new case, not our

83
00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,520
Speaker 1: old case, our two thousand two case. The U S.

84
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,200
Speaker 1: Marshals take over, as they do for a lot of

85
00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,280
Speaker 1: cases like this. So let's go back a little bit

86
00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,680
Speaker 1: to talk about Joey's life and then talk about how

87
00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:44,360
Speaker 1: Joseph Chandler, the third Chandler became b Yeah Chandler Bank,

88
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 1: how Chandler became Joey basically does that work? That works? Okay?

89
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:55,760
Speaker 1: Joey was born on March eleven, nineteen seven, two parents

90
00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,040
Speaker 1: Ellen Chandler and Joseph Newton Chandler Jr. In the In

91
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,719
Speaker 1: the United States of America's Social Security numbers assigned you

92
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,640
Speaker 1: at birth. We know this, but it occurs to me

93
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,599
Speaker 1: that people who don't live here might not know that.

94
00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,480
Speaker 1: But this didn't really start in earnest until nineteen thirty

95
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,359
Speaker 1: six was when I think the first Social Security number

96
00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,359
Speaker 1: was assigned, and then the cards weren't issued until you

97
00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,520
Speaker 1: were an adult and not continued until the seventies or

98
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,760
Speaker 1: something like that. So Joey would have never had a

99
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,800
Speaker 1: Social Security card, and it's likely that his birth certificate

100
00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,120
Speaker 1: was somewhere at his parents house and just kind of

101
00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,640
Speaker 1: got tossed. Yeah, I mean, his parents belonging. He's probably

102
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,920
Speaker 1: would have been somebody would have taken that. And then

103
00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,000
Speaker 1: of course it just moves, and I mean it may

104
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,200
Speaker 1: it may have just been burned or I mean, you know,

105
00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,279
Speaker 1: it could have just been gotten rid of because he died.

106
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,520
Speaker 1: You know, he is a certificate of birth so wide,

107
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,120
Speaker 1: you know, you shouldn't need that birth certificate anymore, and

108
00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,080
Speaker 1: there's nobody interest to keep it these days. Obviously, you

109
00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,720
Speaker 1: need your Social Security number to prove the your citizen,

110
00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,240
Speaker 1: and you need your car. A lot of employers will

111
00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,120
Speaker 1: require that you bring your actual cards what we can

112
00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,919
Speaker 1: see it. Um. But again in those days, that was

113
00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,800
Speaker 1: not the case. And you can get a replacement Social

114
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,800
Speaker 1: Security card, and you can get a replacement birth certificate

115
00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,760
Speaker 1: these days, but you have to go through a lot

116
00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:22,280
Speaker 1: of stuff to get it these days. Process. No, it's not.

117
00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,000
Speaker 1: Several decades ago, it was actually pretty easy. Yeah, it

118
00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 1: turns out have we ever talked about. Joe might remember this.

119
00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,000
Speaker 1: Back in the day when you used to be able

120
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,600
Speaker 1: to eat, buy a wallet and it would have a

121
00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,000
Speaker 1: fake Social Security card in it. Does this bring a

122
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,200
Speaker 1: bell to you at all? So it was it was

123
00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 1: a thing to just be like and you could put

124
00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,480
Speaker 1: your social Security card in here, no big deal. And

125
00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,320
Speaker 1: it was obviously not a real social Security card, but

126
00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,040
Speaker 1: it had a social Security number on it, and it

127
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,880
Speaker 1: what it was is it was the secretary at the

128
00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,960
Speaker 1: office of the company that manufactured the wallets. So security

129
00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,720
Speaker 1: numbers weren't that important of a thing, so they used

130
00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:02,600
Speaker 1: her social security numbering who would actually be dumb enough

131
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:08,160
Speaker 1: to try to use this thing? And for decades people

132
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,800
Speaker 1: were using that as their actually security number, if I

133
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,120
Speaker 1: remember right. She had to eventually get a new one

134
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,880
Speaker 1: because it was just so out of control. That's insane,

135
00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,360
Speaker 1: that's that's thing to do. It's just one of those

136
00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,280
Speaker 1: weird things nobody really cares about. These are not important

137
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,400
Speaker 1: and then just backfired. Yeah, well, it's relatively easy to

138
00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,440
Speaker 1: get a new Social Security card, not a number, but

139
00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 1: a card these days. I know because I looked into

140
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,040
Speaker 1: it because I thought I lost mine. Turns out my

141
00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,839
Speaker 1: parents had it. Don't worry. But really you can as

142
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:40,720
Speaker 1: long as you're not getting I think it was you

143
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,240
Speaker 1: can get ten a year or something like that, some

144
00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,040
Speaker 1: absurd number a year. I don't know. Maybe I mean this.

145
00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,000
Speaker 1: I'm just doing this from memory. But as a US

146
00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,360
Speaker 1: citizen who has a passport, all I would have to

147
00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,280
Speaker 1: do is take my passport and they would say, oh, yeah,

148
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,679
Speaker 1: that's you. Yeah, great, no problem that. Obviously it's not

149
00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,640
Speaker 1: the case then, so are to become someone else, you

150
00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 1: have to have their Social Security card and their birth

151
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:09,560
Speaker 1: certificate pretty much, and Chandler had both of these things. Now,

152
00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,280
Speaker 1: we talked about this a lot, so I'm just gonna

153
00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:12,839
Speaker 1: go ahead and like bite the bullet and talk a

154
00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,920
Speaker 1: little bit about who can get vital records is what

155
00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:21,040
Speaker 1: they call it. It's a birth certificates, original or certified

156
00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,959
Speaker 1: copies of birth certificates or death certificates. And and you're

157
00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,120
Speaker 1: going to reference organs specifically in this varies from it says,

158
00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,640
Speaker 1: I can't imagine it varies. I really can't imagine it

159
00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,840
Speaker 1: varies that much. Actually, probably varies from state to state.

160
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,760
Speaker 1: I just I can't. I mean, this seems totally logical

161
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,240
Speaker 1: to me, and I don't know why anybody would do

162
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,120
Speaker 1: it any other way, but he and I'm sure that

163
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,360
Speaker 1: in another state because I've seen things like this, like, oh,

164
00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,040
Speaker 1: it's going to be that. I don't know, it's the same, Okay, Yeah,

165
00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,160
Speaker 1: that's fair, that's fair. Yeah. So within the first hundred

166
00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,680
Speaker 1: years following the date of birth, those records are totally restricted,

167
00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,160
Speaker 1: which makes sense, right, yeah, because probably somebody isn't going

168
00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,240
Speaker 1: to live past a undred although these days. Yeah, So

169
00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,600
Speaker 1: if you are the person named on the record and

170
00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,439
Speaker 1: your fifteen years are older, you can order a certified

171
00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:13,080
Speaker 1: copy of a vital record and explain vital record. Again,

172
00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,120
Speaker 1: it's a birth certificate or a death certificate, and I

173
00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,880
Speaker 1: think there's I think there's like two other ones. But

174
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,880
Speaker 1: it has to do with your your status as a

175
00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,960
Speaker 1: existing being. No, it's not like marriage certificates are a

176
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,960
Speaker 1: different thing. Your husband or wife or domestic partner who

177
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,440
Speaker 1: is registered by the state can order a vital record

178
00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,120
Speaker 1: on you. A child, a parent, a step parent can

179
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,360
Speaker 1: order something on you. Uh well, steparent until you're eighteen

180
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:47,040
Speaker 1: can order a vild vital record, and your brother or sister, grandparents, grandchild,

181
00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:53,760
Speaker 1: legal guardian, legal representative, authorized representative or government agency conducting

182
00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,920
Speaker 1: official duties that get one. I know it's surprisingly a lot,

183
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,679
Speaker 1: there's a lot, but it's also it's a good list,

184
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:07,360
Speaker 1: I think. I mean, you know, there's definitely most eventualities. Yeah,

185
00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,240
Speaker 1: it does open some stuff up, but you know, hey,

186
00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,080
Speaker 1: when ordering a birth birth certificate, obviously you have to

187
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,439
Speaker 1: say what your relationship is. You have to be able

188
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,080
Speaker 1: to prove that it's you. But these are all things

189
00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 1: that you have to do now. Back then, I think

190
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,000
Speaker 1: it was as easy as writing a letter. If you

191
00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,760
Speaker 1: had someone's Social Security number, for instance, you just write

192
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,920
Speaker 1: a letter and say this is my also Security number,

193
00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,240
Speaker 1: this is me. I need a certified copy of my thing.

194
00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,520
Speaker 1: And it was taking it face ut taken face yeah exactly.

195
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,400
Speaker 1: And then I know that that was true in the

196
00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:45,120
Speaker 1: seventies and this is now becoming relevant. We're off our

197
00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,200
Speaker 1: little side path, here we go. Chandler requested Joey's birth

198
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:54,080
Speaker 1: certificate in nine as well as a Social Security card.

199
00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,880
Speaker 1: It would be the first social Security card that Joseph

200
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,760
Speaker 1: Newton Chandler. The third was issued, since he died when

201
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,280
Speaker 1: he eight, he didn't have one yet anyway. He wrote

202
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:08,040
Speaker 1: from Rapid City, South Dakota, which is where the both

203
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,920
Speaker 1: documents were mailed to. Kind of a shock behind a house,

204
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,600
Speaker 1: But it seems most likely to everybody who's investigated the

205
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,560
Speaker 1: case that he didn't actually ever live there, that he

206
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,360
Speaker 1: just checked the mailbox frequently, that it was kind of

207
00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:28,120
Speaker 1: you know, nobody was really in there. Yeah, yeah, really smart.

208
00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,640
Speaker 1: He moved to least East Lake, Ohio right after that.

209
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,840
Speaker 1: And a website that doesn't exist anymore outside of the

210
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,840
Speaker 1: way Back Machine, so you can see it on the

211
00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,160
Speaker 1: way Back Machine. Hopefully we'll post a link to it,

212
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,160
Speaker 1: because that's pretty good website. It's called crime shadows dot com.

213
00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,360
Speaker 1: They reported that they did a check on when Chandler

214
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,760
Speaker 1: ordered the documents, and they said that it had happened

215
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,040
Speaker 1: that actually the Social Security card had been issued in

216
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,679
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three. I think you can probably chalk it

217
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,439
Speaker 1: up to you like crappy handwriting or smudge typewriter. I mean,

218
00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,520
Speaker 1: three and eight are really close. If you yeah, if

219
00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,000
Speaker 1: you look at I mean we do this all the time.

220
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,440
Speaker 1: We look at old photocopied typewritten documents that have been

221
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,480
Speaker 1: photocopied a half dozen times. They degrade in a three

222
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,240
Speaker 1: starts to look like an eight eight starts to look exactly.

223
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,280
Speaker 1: So I don't know, but I don't. I mean, it

224
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,800
Speaker 1: would be great to know for sure, But barring going

225
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:31,040
Speaker 1: to see those documents in person, the original documents, I

226
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,080
Speaker 1: don't think we all know. So I'm happy to stick

227
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,040
Speaker 1: with seventy eight? Are you guys happy to stick with?

228
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,760
Speaker 1: So we'll say that Chandler became Joey in nine. And

229
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,680
Speaker 1: I'm just now realizing how much like a friend's episode

230
00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:50,640
Speaker 1: this sounds like I was not making reference for no reasons. Sorry, guys, Sorry,

231
00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,360
Speaker 1: So where's Monica? She's coming? Don't okay? Investigators found that

232
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,920
Speaker 1: Chandler had probably lived in California for a time, maybe

233
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,000
Speaker 1: working with the U. S. Navy, and then he moved

234
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,440
Speaker 1: to Cleveland in nineteen seventy nine, and then he moved

235
00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 1: into his last apartment in nineteen eighties six in East Lake, Ohio.

236
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,439
Speaker 1: I've never seen this clarified. How do they determine where

237
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,760
Speaker 1: he lived? Like, I've never seen it specified. I can

238
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,120
Speaker 1: tell you actually the answer to that question. They it's

239
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:24,080
Speaker 1: on his job applications and his rental applications, so it's

240
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,240
Speaker 1: just supplied from him. Not necessarily true. We don't know

241
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,440
Speaker 1: that there's any truth to it based on a man

242
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:36,080
Speaker 1: who was living under assumed identity for twenty seven years. Okay,

243
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:37,840
Speaker 1: that makes me feel much better because I wondered if

244
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:39,840
Speaker 1: it was something like that, but I never caught it.

245
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,920
Speaker 1: I think that his Cleveland in seventy nine is documented

246
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,600
Speaker 1: because they think that's where he was working his first

247
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:52,320
Speaker 1: job as an electrical engineer, and then his moved to

248
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,320
Speaker 1: when he moved to East Lake, that was also documented,

249
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,800
Speaker 1: But his time in California is not document meanted. In fact,

250
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,360
Speaker 1: the company that he listed working for that was Contractors

251
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,760
Speaker 1: for the U. S. Navy, had no record of him

252
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,240
Speaker 1: ever working there. But again, he could have been working

253
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,040
Speaker 1: under a different name. It's possible. I don't really know.

254
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,040
Speaker 1: It could be a completely false lead. Also, frankly, I'm

255
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,000
Speaker 1: surprised that he got a job with putting a job

256
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:18,960
Speaker 1: that he like, you know, the job previous to his,

257
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,520
Speaker 1: and they didn't even bother calling them. But okay, it's seventies,

258
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,240
Speaker 1: but it's an electrical engineer. You would kind of want

259
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,680
Speaker 1: to know that that person knows what they're doing, wouldn't you.

260
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,560
Speaker 1: But it's the seventies and it's an era where again,

261
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,760
Speaker 1: you take things that people say it face now. And

262
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,400
Speaker 1: if a guy says I know how to do this,

263
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,280
Speaker 1: and you ask him some questions and he competently answers them,

264
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,320
Speaker 1: you believe him. Yeah. And also, they don't necessarily call

265
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 1: all your references. They might call one or two. Maybe

266
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,040
Speaker 1: you would think they would call your most recent Yeah. Probably,

267
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,600
Speaker 1: But you know you can't overlook just laziness. That's the true,

268
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:57,040
Speaker 1: That's absolutely true. Yeah. Yeah, whoever it was doing, I

269
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,000
Speaker 1: I didn't find anything fishy because I didn't find anything

270
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 1: because I didn't look for it exactly. Yeah. Chandler was

271
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,840
Speaker 1: an electrical engineering designer. As we've been kind of talking about.

272
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,960
Speaker 1: He did not have friends. I know that that's the

273
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,800
Speaker 1: thing that people say, I don't really have friends. No,

274
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,360
Speaker 1: he did not have friends. In fact, the guy who

275
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,320
Speaker 1: was the executor of his will was a co worker

276
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,760
Speaker 1: at his first job when he had two jobs that

277
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,640
Speaker 1: are documented that he actually worked in, and this first

278
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,600
Speaker 1: one was with ed Co Company ed Co Co and

279
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,800
Speaker 1: he worked with this guy Mark, I think it was Mark.

280
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 1: It was Mark, and then he stated strongly that they

281
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:41,000
Speaker 1: were not friends. He actually, uh, when you know, Joseph

282
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,440
Speaker 1: Chandler asked him to be the executive as a state,

283
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 1: he agreed to it, thinking oh, he's never gonna he's

284
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,440
Speaker 1: not gonna die. Well, he he really regrets that now,

285
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,680
Speaker 1: he absolutely regrets it. And in fact, the only reason

286
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,440
Speaker 1: that he became the executor um on the wheel is

287
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,840
Speaker 1: because he was on the lease. He was a co

288
00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,880
Speaker 1: signer on the lease of chan Lar's most recent apartment,

289
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,440
Speaker 1: and that was because he went and was helping Chandler

290
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:10,280
Speaker 1: with some documents and found out that it was actually

291
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,359
Speaker 1: the landlord was going to be the co signer because

292
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,480
Speaker 1: he really didn't have anyone and Mark felt bad and said, okay,

293
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 1: I'll be a co signer with you on your lease.

294
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,879
Speaker 1: You're probably a trustworthy guy. And then since he was

295
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,760
Speaker 1: the only name that they could definitively connect to him,

296
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,439
Speaker 1: they said, all right, it's your job to execute the will.

297
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,600
Speaker 1: He was never actually named as the executor of the

298
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,280
Speaker 1: will by Chandel like Chandler never asked him to be

299
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 1: the executor. I would never do that co sign for

300
00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,040
Speaker 1: a co worker that I felt bad for. I mean again,

301
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,840
Speaker 1: things are much different now, but in terms of what

302
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,880
Speaker 1: happens when you're a co signer and somebody filters out,

303
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,800
Speaker 1: but no way. Yeah, probably not. Yeah, so, I mean

304
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 1: he did. He really genuinely didn't have friends. Mark the

305
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,040
Speaker 1: executor was the closest thing to a friend. And I

306
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,480
Speaker 1: know that you will find his last name out there,

307
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,600
Speaker 1: but in more recent interviews with him, he has asked

308
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,399
Speaker 1: that his last name be left off of it. So

309
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,280
Speaker 1: we're going to continue to just honor that. Even though

310
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,200
Speaker 1: it's really easy to go find out what his last

311
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,359
Speaker 1: name is, we're not going to be just spreading it

312
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 1: around the Chandler was just kind of mean from all

313
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,920
Speaker 1: the coworker accounts. He was kind of an on ball. Yeah,

314
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,719
Speaker 1: he was really weird. He uh. There's one incident that

315
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,719
Speaker 1: the co workers always recount, and this is genuinely the

316
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,199
Speaker 1: only antecdote that exists about Chandler, right, and it is

317
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,560
Speaker 1: that he drove to l l being in Maine, which

318
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 1: is like a twelve hour drive from the Ohio location.

319
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:42,959
Speaker 1: Um East Lake closer. I don't know. I think there is,

320
00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,399
Speaker 1: but I don't know. In the seventies, what you know,

321
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,879
Speaker 1: I don't know why, Oh yeah, in the eighties or

322
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,040
Speaker 1: maybe the nineties, but I mean even then, like I

323
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,040
Speaker 1: don't know really where things were. But he drove twelve

324
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,760
Speaker 1: hours to l being and he did one circle around

325
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,760
Speaker 1: the parking lot and there were no spots, so he

326
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,920
Speaker 1: just turned around and went drove home. And he was

327
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,800
Speaker 1: quoted as saying, if they don't have a parking spot

328
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 1: for me, they don't have my business. That's fair, is

329
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,399
Speaker 1: it seems a little psycho really? But yeah, I mean

330
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,679
Speaker 1: that was a little crazy. So he drove for twenty

331
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,560
Speaker 1: four hours for not Yeah, yeah, that's not normal. He

332
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 1: reportedly created a static noise machine or a white noise

333
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,439
Speaker 1: machine that he had with him at all times, and

334
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,240
Speaker 1: he listened to it in his headphones pretty much all

335
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,719
Speaker 1: the time. I think he, you know, even when he

336
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,199
Speaker 1: was out on jobs and things like that, which I

337
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,480
Speaker 1: I recognize as a crazy thing. But also, if you

338
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 1: don't really like people or you don't want to interact

339
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,360
Speaker 1: with people, that's a really good way to tune people out.

340
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,919
Speaker 1: It's canceling, that's what I mean. That's a that's a

341
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 1: great way to if you cannot think while other people

342
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,119
Speaker 1: are just nattering along next to you, you got to

343
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,040
Speaker 1: block him out, or if you can't stand other people.

344
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's even as simple as just being

345
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 1: annoyed by people or some sounds can really bug you too.

346
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 1: I know that there's certain sounds that really irritate the

347
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 1: hell to me, you know, So maybe there was a

348
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,720
Speaker 1: lot of those sounds going on his office. Yeah, there's. Yeah,

349
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,880
Speaker 1: there's definitely a couple of things that are more recently

350
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 1: diagnosed disorders that are recognized as actual mental disorders that

351
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 1: will make people like legitimately angry. That are noises that

352
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 1: are totally normal noises. But oh, I know, you know,

353
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,320
Speaker 1: like I've had coworkers and people eat the yogurt out

354
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,520
Speaker 1: of the little plastic thing and you get to the

355
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,159
Speaker 1: bottom and it's always scritch, scrich. You know. That's that's

356
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 1: definitely that noise dressed me crazy. Yeah. Chandler told his

357
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 1: co workers that he had been married twice, once to

358
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 1: a Cuban woman who did not speak English. He spoke

359
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:43,159
Speaker 1: of a sister Mary. I don't think so. I've never

360
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,000
Speaker 1: seen anything that indicated that he did. I don't, so

361
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 1: don't ask me how they communicated. It would be an

362
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,520
Speaker 1: interesting they were married. You don't communicate when you're married.

363
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 1: I've I've heard that. Yes, he said that he had

364
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 1: a sister, Mary R. Wilson, who lived in Columbus, Ohio,

365
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 1: and he listed her on some of his forms, but

366
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,840
Speaker 1: the address was vacant, and Mary Wilson was probably totally

367
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 1: made up. There's really really good chance yea too, didn't he?

368
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 1: He sometimes said he had a brother. His stories about

369
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 1: himself were not usually the same. Although although the the

370
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,199
Speaker 1: sister that he used, the address was the same for

371
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 1: all the applications. And I think even he referenced her

372
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 1: when he uh when he wrote for the cards or something.

373
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 1: There was something earlier that he referenced her in as well,

374
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: But you know, again, who knows. The investigators on this

375
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: case have some kind of descriptive things to say about

376
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,400
Speaker 1: Chandler as well. They say that he lived a hermit's life.

377
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: His apartment was sparse but had a few books, and

378
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 1: the official profile is that he suffered obsessive compulsive disorder,

379
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 1: and he didn't drink or smoke, and was anti social

380
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: and seldom appeared to be at ease in public. So

381
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 1: total interviewer, introvert, yeah A. One of the one of

382
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: the other interesting traits is he was an engineer, of course,

383
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 1: and so engineers have a certain kind of personality kind

384
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 1: of thing. He never wrote in cursive script. He i

385
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,880
Speaker 1: was wrote in block block letters, all all caps. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

386
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,479
Speaker 1: and you know, from what everybody can tell, he was

387
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 1: really really intelligent and they think they knew that he

388
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 1: knew what he was doing, that he was really living

389
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,360
Speaker 1: the perfect life to keep off the radar. I mean,

390
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 1: he wasn't what he was doing to with his false

391
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 1: identity and yeah, exactly. Yeah, he didn't spend a lot

392
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 1: of money, He didn't buy anything that would raise red flags.

393
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 1: He didn't partake in any kind of habitual behavior where

394
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 1: he didn't smoke it and drink and go out, so

395
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, he did he led a quiet life. He

396
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 1: had they call it a modest bank account, which is

397
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: probably true. And he really didn't move around a lot,

398
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: you know, he was he was he was really good

399
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: at attracting attention, not attracting attention. Yeah, sorry, yeah, well yeah,

400
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: I could see why you wouldn't move that off And

401
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: if you've got to get somebody to co sign the

402
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,719
Speaker 1: lease every time you do it, yeah, I would imagine,

403
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 1: though I don't think that's right because after your first

404
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: apartment that you've been in for five years and they

405
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 1: called the landlord and he says, always paid on time,

406
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 1: No big deal, then you don't need a co signer.

407
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,959
Speaker 1: It's when you're when you're fresh, Yeah, you got no history, right,

408
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 1: or when you're moving around a lot. And I believe

409
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: he had a credit history, did he? Yeah? Yeah. In fact,

410
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: he was so good at this whole living off the

411
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 1: radar thing that investigators initially thought maybe he was in

412
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 1: the long term witness protection program of some kind, but

413
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: that was ruled out quickly by the U. S. Marshals

414
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: who were investigating the case because the same program mostly

415
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: they would know Mark the not front co worker, the

416
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,679
Speaker 1: co worker, the only co worker, said that he had

417
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: actually invited Chandler to come to a Halloween party, totally

418
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: expecting him to not show up. And this was just

419
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: kind of after the whole well, it was like three

420
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: or four years after he had signed the lease with

421
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: Chandler and Chandler got his apartment in six Yeah, you're right,

422
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,719
Speaker 1: you're right, you're right. I don't know why I had

423
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: eighty nine in my head somehow. Yeah, so, I mean,

424
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 1: you know, it was a while later, but he definitely

425
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 1: says that he tried to at least speak with Chandler

426
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: once a year. Um, you know, he really felt for

427
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: the guy. I think, Um, but it turns Chandler showed

428
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: up to the party. Um, they dispect him to that

429
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: at all. They were sure that he was not going

430
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 1: to show up, and he did. He showed up and

431
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 1: he was dressed in a full like full out gangster

432
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: you know. He had the pinstripe sue and the wide

433
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: lapel and the cigar and the hat, and um, that's

434
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 1: a little lot. I mean, I've seen reported that he

435
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: only had like one change of clothes and his entire house.

436
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 1: So that's I mean, that's a pretty big length to

437
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: go to for a Halloween party. But they go and

438
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: he looks pretty sharp in that suit, he does, And

439
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: that's actually those are the pictures that you'll see a

440
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 1: lot on the internet. Those those two pictures of him

441
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: looking slightly nefarious, you're the only candid photos of him.

442
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: They are, and he does. It's definitely worth looking at

443
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: those because he does look pretty different than he does

444
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: in the one picture, the I D picture. He's dental

445
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: record is on file, as mentioned, but as also mentioned,

446
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: it was made during the twenty three or so years

447
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: that he was Chandler obviously like an eight year old.

448
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: Joey's dental records probably wouldn't be super helpful in a

449
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: case like this, but the dental records are attributed to him,

450
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 1: so so they checked those before they burned the body.

451
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: They checked those to identify him, to make sure he

452
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 1: was the guy who was on the lease. Right, they

453
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: found the dentist who the local dentist who had worked

454
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: on his tooth. Sound correct. I presume that's how they didn't.

455
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: I woul that on file. I hope that his boy,

456
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: they're gonna be disappointed in mighty Yeah, me too. I'm

457
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: kind of curious about the dentist. His dnist noticed nothing

458
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: unusual that is dental work, but I guess I haven't

459
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: seen any reports, and I think they would have mentioned it.

460
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 1: They also have DNA on file from some old medical visits.

461
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: I guess he he had advanced colon cancer and he

462
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: had gone through some treatment, but he insisted on paying

463
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 1: for everything in cash, which again, you know, sounds like

464
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: something this guy would do, and so he just couldn't

465
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: afford it. Apparently, his first round of treatments cost him

466
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: eighty thou dollars and he paid in cash, and then

467
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 1: they wanted him to do chemo. But so that's where

468
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: they had the DNA samples from you know, all the

469
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: testing and stuff like that, so they do have DNA

470
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: samples of Chandler. They don't have fingerprints though, because again

471
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: they cremated the body, so nobody really examined his fingers.

472
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: But also they they thought, well, surely he hadn't you

473
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: know he had They had an entire apartment full of stuff.

474
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: Surely there's at least one good print, but no all smudges,

475
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: all smudges, And we'll talk about that in a little bit,

476
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: but I will just mention that he was an electrical engineer,

477
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: so you know, burning your fingertips with Yeah, it's easy

478
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: to do, super easy, So it wouldn't really surprise me

479
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: a whole lot. But again, we can talk about some

480
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: other reasons that that might be. We can also standing

481
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: We'll talk about some other reasons of why that might

482
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: be in a minute. And then his autopsy revealed, on

483
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: top of the terminal colon cancer, that he also had

484
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: male pattern baldness, which leads most people to believe that

485
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: he's wearing a hairpiece in his I D picture, which

486
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: I'm willing to believe. You know, there are so few

487
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: pictures of him and the two candid ones. He's wearing

488
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: a hat, so you can't tell what's under there, So

489
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: I don't know what he looked like in life, you know.

490
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if or even if he wore a

491
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: hair piece. I don't know about any of that. So

492
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: one final note before we move on to our next

493
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: little thing that we need to talk about, is that

494
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 1: Chandler would sometimes apparently just go dark, like just disappear

495
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: for a couple of days, sometimes a month at a time,

496
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: but mostly just a couple of days. And Mark said

497
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: that when he asked him about it, Chandler would just say, uh,

498
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: they were close, they're getting close, And that was the

499
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 1: only description he would give him. They were getting close. Ye,

500
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: that's weird. It's super weird, right, Aliens, Aliens, I'm telling you.

501
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: So here's the next thing we need to talk about,

502
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: and that is that someone familiar to many of you

503
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: takes a big interest in this case, or at least

504
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: did a year ago. I don't know if he's moved

505
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: on or not, because he tends to do that, but

506
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: that person is James Renner. And I'll be totally upfront

507
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: and transparent in saying that I did not reach out

508
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: to him for this story because of the weird, non

509
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: responsive stuff that we received when we were researching the

510
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: mar Murray case. Uh, and I didn't really want to

511
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: go through that again, so we did not talk to

512
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: Mr Renner about this case. But we did look at

513
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: a lot of research through his blogs that he's written,

514
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: some Reddit posts, and also um an article that he

515
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: said doesn't exist on the internet more anymore, but we

516
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: found on the way back machine. So we've read. I

517
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: feel we've done our due diligence on this one. Renner

518
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: claims that Chandler was a sexual deviant, and I don't

519
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: really know why. I think it's a bit sensationalist that

520
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: he claims this, but will run through this anyway. He

521
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: posted a threat on Reddit a year ago that made

522
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: this claim, and again he doesn't really there's nothing that

523
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: he really says to back it up. His strongest bit

524
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: of evidence is that on February four nine, a guy

525
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: calling himself Joseph Newton Chandler. I think there was a third,

526
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: but that could be admitted from the story I don't

527
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: know shows up at a local hospital. Is that in

528
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: air quotes the local hospital bits. I don't know if

529
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: it's air quotes. It's kind of like local hospital with

530
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: lacerations on his penis. Uh. He said that he heard

531
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: himself trying to masturbate with a vacuum cleaner, which I

532
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: feel like, isn't that weird of a thing. And he

533
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: was just, I mean, okay, yes, it's not uh like normal,

534
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: It's not the most normal thing. But if you're a

535
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: lonely guy, like, yeah, what the heck? And I I mean,

536
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: Joe know something. Yeah, there's there's stores things I did

537
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: vague to confirm this. I take to Pete Elliott's from

538
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: the U. S. Marshall Service. He was investigating this, and

539
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: he said that the er story actually is true. Then yeah,

540
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: well and I'm not okay, And so I'm not saying

541
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: that that story didn't happen. That's not what I'm saying.

542
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: I am saying that lonely older guy showing up now

543
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: saying I hurt myself. You know, masturbating with a vacuum

544
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: is not weird. And the other thing that I want

545
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: to say about this is that the doctor didn't note

546
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: that he thought that Chandler was probably older than he

547
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,959
Speaker 1: reported being, but he didn't say anything about not believing

548
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: his story. About the vacuum. I think the implication that

549
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: Renters trying to make is that this guy was like

550
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: cutting himself or like doing some kind of like huge

551
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: self harm. But I really think that the guy just

552
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: got his penis stuck in a vacuum. Any young man

553
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: listening right now, don't try that. Don't try it. Please,

554
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: don't try it. Don't don't don't do it. Well, I'll

555
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: let me give you another piece of advice, and that is,

556
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: when you go to the e R with something embarrassing

557
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: like this, don't give him your real name and pay

558
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: in cash. Yeah, I used to. I I had a

559
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: girlfriend years ago. Yeah, she worked at the She worked

560
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: at the billing of the billing records office. So this

561
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: woman shows up with let's just say, a very embarrassing

562
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: sexually related injury at the er she's got. She gives

563
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: him her name and medical insurance and everything. And in

564
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: this office that my girlfriend worked at the time, there

565
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: were more than a hundred people there, and of course

566
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: every person in that office saw a copy of that

567
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: EER reports and also a claim went out to an

568
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: insurance company, and I'm sure hundreds of people at that

569
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: insurance company saw that claim. And so like I said,

570
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: fake name pain Cash. Yeah, yeah, totally so. I just

571
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,479
Speaker 1: I don't think that the doctors didn't. I think they

572
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: believed him. I think that was totally normal. I think

573
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: it's totally sensationalist of Runner to say that this makes

574
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: this guy sexual deviant. But okay, you know, accidents happened.

575
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: Really Yeah no, I mean again, it happened, and I

576
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: don't think anybody is saying it didn't happen. I just anyway.

577
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: Renner goes on to say that police found quote weird

578
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: gadgets he created for purposes unknown, and a strange child

579
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: peanut sticker from nineteen sixty five, and a hobby tool

580
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: nobody has yet identified. I'm laughing because the hobby tool

581
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: was show obvious. Literally within like thirty seconds, somebody identified it.

582
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: It's a label maker. It's a label It's a raised

583
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: label maker from the seven. It's got the black or

584
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: colored tape that you punch and the letters stand out

585
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: why against it And a lot of electrical engineers use

586
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: it to label gear or parts or whatever's got pistol

587
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: handle on it. Yeah, and then the round thing on

588
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: the top and the back of the still label strip

589
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: and you stick it on and it's got your name

590
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: on it everything. Yes, yeah, and you know again it's like,

591
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: oh weird. He has a sticker from nineteen five, like

592
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: people have people and stuff, and even if it wasn't stuff,

593
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's like a good job sticker. Maybe

594
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: he got it as an award, maybe he found it

595
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: on the street and thought it was cute. It's not

596
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: that weird. And yes, as far as I know, those

597
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: black boxes have yet to be identified. Well, one of

598
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: them does make the white noise well, I don't know

599
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: about they're too big. I thought that's what Pete Elliott. Oh,

600
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: he said one of the ones that one of the

601
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: white noise generator. Maybe it was like you know, portable

602
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: white noise generator and housewhite noise generator. They look they

603
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: look like the first gen of like shapeshifter tech from

604
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: fringe to It's totally I mean, I looked at these

605
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: things and YouTube Bill this. I work with a bunch

606
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 1: of engineers, and it looks like the early prototype versions

607
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: that the guys that I work with would make where

608
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: they drill a couple of air holes in it so

609
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: we can breathe and radiate heat and YadA, YadA, YadA,

610
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 1: and he scribbled on the back of it commands. But

611
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: it looks like I swear I saw this similard. Maybe

612
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: think that it's a power inverter. That was my thought too,

613
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: that's where you saw it. It's my script maybe, Yeah,

614
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: that it looked like an early version of that, and

615
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 1: it's a thing that the patent wasn't filed for until so,

616
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 1: I mean, it could have been tinkering, but it does.

617
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: It looks like that that black pack that comes on

618
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: your laptop, what you're talking about, Yeah, yeah, that's what

619
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: I thought too. Well. Know, what I was talking about

620
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: is like a converter, because there's a power inverter and

621
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: power converter from DC to a C right. And one

622
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: of the things is that I was looking it up

623
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: as the inverters are used for motors because you can

624
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: you can adjust the voltage on him. And you know,

625
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: the first thing that made me think of was you

626
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: ever played with an old model train set, like really

627
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: old control boxes that have the dial And it totally

628
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: made me think of some homemade version of one of those. Yeah, yeah,

629
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: I mean there's on the bottom it says on on

630
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: two sides or no two runner in pencil, and you know,

631
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 1: people have said, well, why didn't he use the label maker,

632
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,439
Speaker 1: and it was like, well, maybe he was out of tape,

633
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: or maybe he didn't want it to be permanent, maybe

634
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: he wasn't ready for it to be permanent. But yeah,

635
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: I mean, there there are a lot of things they

636
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: could be. And uh, you know, it sounds like Pete

637
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: Nose or Mr Elliott sorry, Mr Elliott knows, Marshall Elliott knows.

638
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: You know that at least one of them is the

639
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: white noisemaker, so that's identified. And you know, I just

640
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: think they're not really that nefarious. No, they're weird, but

641
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: they're wed. You say, if he sat at home and

642
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: he just worked on stuff all the time, why not

643
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: Yeah let me try this. Maybe I can you know,

644
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 1: make the better mouse trap. Yeah exactly, Yeah, that's what

645
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: he might just might have just actually gotten a lot

646
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 1: of joy out of just soldering stuff, you know, Yeah,

647
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: he could have. The other thing that Runner says is

648
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: that the gun was purchased. The gun that Chandler used

649
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: to kill himself was purchased in Ohio a few months

650
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: prior to his suicide. But that's not true. About half

651
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: of the other investigation that I've seen says that it

652
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: was purchased in Texas between nineteen sixty six and nineteen

653
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 1: seventy six from a gun store that doesn't exist anymore,

654
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: and their records were destroyed Lle Texas. Yeah, but well

655
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: the records couldn't have been destroyed though, because when when

656
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: you have a federal firearms licensed. Well, I thought there was.

657
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 1: I thought the whole thing was there was like a

658
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: fire at the I mean, I don't know, okay, because otherwise,

659
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: but when you when you close your business down, you

660
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: give up your federal firearms license, you got to send

661
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: all your books to the B A T. F. Right,

662
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: which would make sense. But was that the same process

663
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: at that time. Let's say that this this, this place

664
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: disappeared in the late seventies, would that would that process

665
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 1: have been in place? The process? The process was in

666
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: place after the nineteen six Gun Control Act, So yeah,

667
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,439
Speaker 1: I would have probably been then. Okay, Well but maybe

668
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: not if he bought it in sixty six, it could

669
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: have been before they were really keeping records. Yeah, I

670
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: thought he bought it more recently. Well, yeah, I don't

671
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: really know. Again, I'm fifty fifty on this because half

672
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 1: the reporting I see says a couple of months before,

673
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 1: and the other half says, I don't know, there's a

674
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: big window there. I have a question, and I think

675
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 1: I know what the answer is going to be. Okay,

676
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: where did Renner get the information that it was purchased

677
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: within months prior to the suicide? Is that not provided?

678
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 1: You know? One of the reasons that I have a

679
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: bit of a problem with James Runner is that he

680
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: doesn't He's not great at saying exactly where he got

681
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: the information from. He's really good at saying and I

682
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: found out that this thing, And you're like, okay, but

683
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: where did you find that out? And you know in

684
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: the I'm sure in his books he's much better. But like,

685
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: I don't okay, I'm not made of money. I can't

686
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: buy everything. I presumed that that was going to be

687
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: that's the situation because we've encountered this before, but I

688
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: just wanted to double check. Yeah, okay, So are you

689
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: guys ready to talk about theories? Yeah? I actually like

690
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 1: how you've labeled the theory section who could it be? Now?

691
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 1: The minute work? Who could it be? Now? It's we're

692
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 1: going to just do enough betical order. The theories are right?

693
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: Who Who's Chandler. So the first one is Colin Hay,

694
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: the lead singer for Minute Work. Uh no, not alphabetically now, Oh,

695
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 1: I was really hoping that's why you titled the section

696
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: that No, damn sorry actually has nothing to do with

697
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: Men Work. I just had that song stuck in my head.

698
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. It is actually a famous singer on the

699
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: suspect list, there is, It's true. Yeah, just wait, okay, okay,

700
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: So the first we have pictures in our script, so

701
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: sorry all over you'll, Yeah, but I just thought it'd

702
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: be nice while we're sitting here talking for us to happen.

703
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: So the first one is Stephen Craig Campbell. And I'm

704
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: just gonna go ahead and preface this whole thing by

705
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 1: saying that literally almost every single one of these could

706
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: be an episode in and of themselves, individuals on each

707
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: individual suspect. So we're just going to try and really

708
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: keep it short. But I can't make any promises because

709
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: they're all really really fascinating. Yeah. Campbell is on America's

710
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: most wanted list for crimes he committed in three, specifically

711
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: for attempted first degree murder and and making a bomb.

712
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: He has a few known aliases. One is Fred Campbell

713
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: and the other Stephen Murphy. Yep, we got a Jonah Steve.

714
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, I could be Fred. I guess Okay, anyway,

715
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: what's up next? Fred? Well, So, Campbell decided that he

716
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: did not like his ex wife's new boyfriend Nobody. He

717
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: was jealous, so he decided to make a bomb and

718
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: put it in a toolbox his toolbox, uh, and put

719
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 1: it on the porch, thinking that you know, the husband

720
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 1: would be like, oh tools, and you know open it

721
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: would is attracted to a box of craftsmen. Well, listen,

722
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:46,720
Speaker 1: I don't think that Campbell's like the most sound thinker anyway.

723
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: Long story short, his wife, his ex wife, finds it instead,

724
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: but she's suspicious of it and pokes it with a

725
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,439
Speaker 1: broom and it explodes. It takes off the entire back

726
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: end of the house and her hand, but she lives,

727
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: so it almost ended up killing her instead. Campbell was

728
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: arrested and admitted to the whole thing and posted bail

729
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: and promptly skipped it and has never been seen again,

730
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 1: except for maybe once he might have been arrested under

731
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: one of his other identities and posted bail and skipped again.

732
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: Or escaped or something. He was a pretty strong suspect

733
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: as the UNI bomber as well for a while. So

734
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: here's here's some interesting things about Campbell. He was an

735
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: electrical and chemical engineer. He was born in California, where

736
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 1: Chandler spent quote unquote spend some time, supposedly spend some time.

737
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 1: Campbell fled from Cheyenne, Wyoming, which is only three hundred

738
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: and eight miles from Rapid City, South Dakota, where the

739
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: social Security card and birth certificate request were made for

740
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: Joey Listen reported sightings of Campbell happened in the Virgin Islands,

741
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: and you know, Chandler might have had Cuban wife, and

742
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: the Virgin Islands in the in Cuba are like kind

743
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: of close, right, Yeah, I'll go to Virgin Islands. I'll

744
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: check out. Yeah, me too. Yeah. And some people say

745
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: that Campbell was kind of just a crazy person anyway,

746
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 1: and had multiple Social Security numbers and birth certificates of

747
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: other people for years prior to get that's a great idea,

748
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 1: but he that he had started doing that even before obviously,

749
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: you know, in the seventies and the early seventies, so

750
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 1: that he has a pretty solid that's a pretty solid suspect.

751
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: The reason in the suspect is because he wears glasses.

752
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: It kind of looks like it kind of looks like

753
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: a young version of Chandler. I mean, he does. You

754
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: have to admit the mug shot on the I D

755
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: picture look vaguely similar. And I know a lot of

756
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 1: that is because of the glasses, but they do look

757
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: vaguely similar to But let's just talk about let's just

758
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: talk about the problems. Right. Campbell was six ft or

759
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: maybe even six too, and Chandler was five seven, maybe

760
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: five eight on a good day. You know, people say,

761
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 1: well he shrunk, He shrunk because he was getting older.

762
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: Campbell had curly hair. Chandler did not, although again we

763
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 1: don't really know that for sure because they're comment, sorry,

764
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: I had long hair once. Yeah, well, I mean, but

765
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: it was backwards. The thing is that like, Campbell had

766
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: curly hair and Chandler had straight hair quote unquote. But

767
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: it's just counting the fact that he was probably wearing

768
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: away but you don't, we don't know it was probably.

769
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: But also, you know, perm's worth thing, so he Campbell

770
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: could have had a perm. The timeline, the timeline doesn't

771
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: really match very well. Campbell didn't really become a fugitive

772
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: until like ten years after Chandler's surfaced. Their eye colors

773
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 1: not the same, and Campbell was born in forty eight,

774
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: which means that he would be ten years younger than

775
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: Joey would And if anything, people thought that Chandler was

776
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: older than he then he said he was not younger.

777
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: So it would be very impressive if you happened to

778
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 1: be ten years younger than you were claiming, and people

779
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 1: kept thinking, oh, no, that's too young for you. Living hard, yeah,

780
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: really hard. I mean, I like the theory because they again,

781
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: I think they look kind of similar. And to address

782
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: the draw line issue, apparently Campbell had a rich uncle

783
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: that might have paid for some minor plastic surgery quote

784
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: unquote that wouldn't be minor surgery. Though, I'm gonna I'm

785
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: gonna point this out right now, and I'm gonna say this,

786
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna apply this to every candidate that we have.

787
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: Is that if you look at Chandler's nose and you

788
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: look at the nostrils, He's kind of got an upturned

789
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: nose because you you see his nostrils when he's looking

790
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: straight ahead and nobody else does that. So it's almost

791
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: kind of the the pixie knows because he's looking straight ahead,

792
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: but his his his schnas is pointing up. Nobody else

793
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: seems to have that nose. Stop showing me your nostrils, Stefen. Well,

794
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: I mean, can you see them when you like, when

795
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: you hold your head. But but he's he's looking he's

796
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: looking relative totally straight ahead. He doesn't look like he's

797
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: tipped back. So that's why I have a problem with it. Yah, yeah,

798
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: that's true. But yeah, I would say that he is

799
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: not a good suspect. Okay, oh yeah, the age thing

800
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: is right well, and the hyper eye color, yeah, alright,

801
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: who else could it be? Well, it could be uh

802
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:27,959
Speaker 1: D B. Cooper like Dan Cooper. There's not no resemblance.

803
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: And again, the only thing we have to compare to

804
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: is a composite sketch of Dan Cooper. Right, we don't

805
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: have any actual photos of Dan Cooper. Cooper hijacked a

806
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: plane in nineteen seventy one. Yeah you know that, right,

807
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 1: Okay that you just you just gave me a fright

808
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 1: that I you're right, yeah, I mean, Chandler was probably

809
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: on the lamb from something. But I think I don't

810
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: think he was Cooper. Do you think I do? Well,

811
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: it would have been the wrong age. Of course, Again,

812
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 1: people said he looked older, but Cooper was supposedly white

813
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: in his mid forties people guests. Yeah, I know, I

814
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: loved I looked at a lot of that stuff and

815
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 1: I kept trying to find what people how old people

816
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: thought Cooper was, and that was it was almost impossible. Yeah,

817
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:26,439
Speaker 1: people are just saying there, yeah, yeah, but he would

818
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: have been too old. Yeah, but yeah, I think that

819
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: Cooper had a different personality. He was He was chatty

820
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: and friendly with it with the stewardesses. And also he

821
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: drank and smoked. Of course, if it was Cooper, maybe

822
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 1: he go up one on the wagon eventually at some point.

823
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: It's kind of hard for me to picture dB Cooper

824
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: just like being a hermit though, yeah, yeah, and and

825
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,439
Speaker 1: you know, an electrical or electrical engineer and just not Yeah,

826
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: I don't think Yeah, I don't think that either. And

827
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: in the late seventies, you know, there's no reason for

828
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: Cooper to go on the lamb. I mean, the police

829
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: were not hot on his trail. Yeah that was when,

830
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: so you know, only seventies. Keeper was not hiding under

831
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: your identity. He was. He was actually hiding money on

832
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: the banks of the Columbia River that got burned a

833
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: little bit we found in the eighties. Yeah, so yeah,

834
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: I mean, so he had no reason to assume the

835
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: false identities. I would agree with thats were nowhere near

836
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,439
Speaker 1: closing in on him. Yeah, I would agree with that totally. Yeah,

837
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 1: let's move on to the next one. Okay, our next

838
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: guy is John Dial, John Victor Dial. Excuse me. I

839
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: mostly included this one for fun and because you'll see

840
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: at places. But um, we're going to debunk it pretty

841
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: quick here. John Victor Dial went a wall from his

842
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 1: station at Howard Air Force Base in Panama in June

843
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty six, or actually he left service. I

844
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: don't know if he was honorably discharged, dishonorably discharged, or

845
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: he went a wall. He married at twenty three years

846
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: old a Panamanian woman named Elsa, and they probably had

847
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: at least one child, maybe two. People say, oh, yeah,

848
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,240
Speaker 1: you know, Chandler said that he had a Cuban wife,

849
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: and uh, maybe actually she was Panamanian and maybe yeah

850
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: he was on a stake, and yeah, maybe he was wrong.

851
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 1: I mean, actually, you know, Cuba and Cuba and Phantom

852
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 1: are kind of similarly shaped. They're long and skinny, they

853
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: are vaguely similarly shaped. Yet it would be pretty that'd

854
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: be an easy mistake to make. Yeah. Well, the spoilers

855
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: are that, you know, John Dial has since resurfaced and

856
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: he's safe and everything's fine, and he's not Chandler because

857
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,919
Speaker 1: he contacted his sister after he wasn't dead, he wasn't dead.

858
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: Who else could it be? Well, it could be Jim Morrison.

859
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: I checked. I checked the end of that, and the

860
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 1: end of that. Does seem to believe that Jim Morrison

861
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: faked his own death? Yeah, they do, although I don't

862
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: think Jim Morrison could ever live like that. Though I

863
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: don't think so. Well, I want of the thing too,

864
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: you know. I looked up a picture of Jim Morrison.

865
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: Jim Morrison had long hair. This guy has short hair. Yeah.

866
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: There's no way, Yeah, I know, yeah, there's no way.

867
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. Uh. Next next theory is um a Soviet spy. Yeah,

868
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: I got this one from that. I don't know if

869
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: you saw this. I did. I did, and I was

870
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: kind of thinking, well, do I want to leave it

871
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: in do I not want to leave it in And

872
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: then when we talked about talking to Marshall elliott I

873
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 1: just thought, okay, well yeah we should and he he

874
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 1: didn't say that this wasn't necessarily a strong contender. He said,

875
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 1: he just says, some people believe that maybe it was

876
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: a Soviet spy, and maybe there's something to this. Actually,

877
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 1: as it turns out, you know, one of the big

878
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,240
Speaker 1: problems with Handler is figuring out how he found Joey

879
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 1: in the first place. Right, it's a fairly obscure that,

880
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: you know, the family, it wasn't a huge car accident.

881
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: There was just a little tiny blurb. It would have

882
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: been some big news in their hometown. It wasn't even

883
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: I looked. I looked at the news reports and it

884
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: was you know, in the town that they were from,

885
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 1: there was literally in the obituary section there was a

886
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: little like three sentenced thing on their death, and then

887
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: in the town they crashed, there was just a little,

888
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: tiny like two paragraph thing. It was huge news. Um,

889
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have made a splash. It wouldn't be one

890
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 1: of those things that people would think, oh, yeah, you know,

891
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:10,959
Speaker 1: so finding his identity is one of the huge Yeah,

892
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: so you have to have a big spive you're actually

893
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 1: doing it for you, or you knew the family. Well,

894
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: that's what I was thinking when I talked to Marshall

895
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: Elliot and I was, you know, I was like, I

896
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: was thinking that maybe would have been like a school

897
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: a classmate of Joey's or somebody who knew him. Yeah,

898
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: that's a that's a theory, or potentially a not so

899
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: close relative. And I was asking about that. Actually it's

900
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: like and and I just I just thought it would

901
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 1: make that suggestion to him, but he was actually way

902
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: ahead of me on that checked out. I've checked all

903
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: that and they've they've got some d n A. And

904
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 1: I asked him, based on the idea that it was

905
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 1: possibly somebody who was like a cousin or a second

906
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 1: cousin or something like that, who would have known about this.

907
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: And so I asked him, are they going to exume

908
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 1: or have the exhumed the bodies of the family of

909
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: the Chandler family, And he said, they're not at that

910
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 1: stage yet. You said it might still happen, but that's

911
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: kind of parents. Yeah, yeah, and resuming the parents and

912
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 1: just to see if it was maybe if there were

913
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: any close market. I would I would question how much

914
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:12,879
Speaker 1: usable DNA there would be at that point. Well, there

915
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: is that, you know, I don't know, but he's he

916
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: said that it's it's a possibility that might happen eventually,

917
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 1: but it's kind of a last ditch sort of thing

918
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 1: because obviously digging up bodies it's not not the first

919
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 1: go to things. No, no, no, it's really frowned upon. So,

920
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: I mean that could happen in this case, actually could

921
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: get solved. Yeah, well it turns out it was a relative.

922
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 1: So but we're talking actually about Soviet spies right now,

923
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: not family members. Yeah, that's okay. So, I mean, you know,

924
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: the fingerprints are a pretty big indicator that this could

925
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: be a thing if we think, okay, maybe he didn't

926
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 1: burn his fingertips off on accident all the time. This

927
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: is a thing that Soviet spies and people who were fleeing, well,

928
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: people who were Nazis that we're trying to avoid persecution did,

929
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: is they mutilated their own fingerprints with you know, acid

930
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,399
Speaker 1: or seeing them down or whatever so that they would

931
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: never leave usable prints, which it kind of seems like

932
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 1: Chandler did. Because it's incredible that he had an entire

933
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: house and not a single usable print from the lot

934
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah. I mean that's I don't think it

935
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: was a Nazi because assuming he was born in nine

936
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 1: seven is somewhere close to around there, he would have

937
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: been the youngest Nazi ever. Yeah, yeah, exact, Yeah, Yeah,

938
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: I know I would agree may Hitler. Yeah. But one

939
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: of the things that apparently I was just gonna say,

940
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: one of the things that apparently also backs this up

941
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: is that there was a very old, outdated computer found

942
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: in Chandler's house. Uh, and apparently it got damaged in

943
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: the move to the evidence locker, so they just threw

944
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: it out, which is so convenient. But UM investigator Lewis

945
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: was the first investigator, and he said that he had

946
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: a guy look at the comp year before it had

947
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 1: been moved, and that there had been some recent web

948
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: searches that included UM like Nazism and plastic explosives. So um,

949
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 1: somehow I guess that helps. I don't really know. I

950
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: think before you like head overseas on your Soviet sleeper

951
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: raging assignment, they teach you how to make plastics. I

952
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 1: think that's true, And I also don't think you have

953
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: to search Nazism. You probably kind of know what it's about, right, Yeah,

954
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: it's I would easily just kind of justify that as

955
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: he probably watched something on biography or something about the

956
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,399
Speaker 1: war and decided to I want to see if there's

957
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 1: some other information on this one topic. And you know,

958
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 1: I mean people do people do that all the time. Yeah, actually,

959
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 1: it is. It's it's actually I think more people should

960
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 1: do a little research on the Nazis because people actually

961
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: a lot of people have the wrong idea about the Nazis.

962
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: A lot of people don't totally understand what the Nazis

963
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: were about. Yeah, absolutely, I mean there were there were sex,

964
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, But people don't really understand their

965
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 1: ideology as well as they think they do. Yeah. So yeah,

966
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 1: I mean the only problem is is, you know, there's

967
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 1: a problem I think Joe has with it mostly, which

968
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: is that you know, this isn't it's not a secret.

969
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:06,839
Speaker 1: Using the identity of a dead child is like, that's

970
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,399
Speaker 1: not that's yeah, I mean it's been around. The first

971
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 1: place I ever heard about this was they have the

972
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: Jackal by Frederick FORSTT. You know, and then well this

973
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 1: guy gets it, and I guess this is how the

974
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 1: Internet believes that this guy went out to a graveyard

975
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 1: and just walked around until you found a dead family.

976
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 1: The law enforcement does not believe that. That's why they

977
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: believe that there was some sort of connection, not necessarily

978
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: family or close friends, but there. But because walking around

979
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: a graveyard, it's like, you know, that'd be a long,

980
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 1: tedious process. Yeah, and that's that's that's banking on the

981
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 1: fact that they're all going to be buried together in

982
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: a single plot. Well, it's banking on that. It's also

983
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 1: banking on the fact that you know that John Smith

984
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 1: isn't a black guy. There's all kinds of factors there,

985
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: and so it's a lot easier to just you know,

986
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: go through newspaper articles rather than walk around walk around cemetery. Absolutely,

987
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, and I guess you know, apparently Chandler

988
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: did once tell Mike uh that he had something he

989
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 1: wanted to tell Mark. I'm sorry that he had something

990
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 1: he wanted to tell him someday, but I don't know

991
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: what it was. That he was a Zodiac killer, could

992
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: have been sleeper age, yeah, or maybe he wanted to

993
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: tell him about the vacuum cleaner into Yeah, maybe it's possible. Uh,

994
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 1: next time, I don't want to say about this. The

995
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: web search is though, is that if he was a perv,

996
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 1: then why didn't he have like stuff like kinky vacuum

997
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: tricks and stuff like that. Isn't he was using the incognito?

998
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe yeah. Next up is Gene Isaac

999
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 1: Ste's professor Gina isaac sts professor. Stees was incarcerated at

1000
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 1: a state prison in Columbus, Ohio because he was a gem.

1001
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 1: He was convicted of beating his estranged wife and unborn

1002
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 1: child to death. He admitted it and was sentenced in

1003
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, and he wasn't a model inmate. He

1004
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: eventually became a clerk there even and one of the

1005
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 1: added benefits of him being a clerk there is that

1006
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: instead of wearing the you know, old striped pajamas, he

1007
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,399
Speaker 1: got to wear khakis and look like a normal human being.

1008
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 1: And also the clerk's office was like literally right next

1009
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 1: to the door out that wasn't apparently left very locked

1010
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: all the time. Attended at least yeah, attended at least

1011
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,399
Speaker 1: so seven years and four days after his initial incarceration

1012
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 1: on February eighteen, seventy. Steve's just walked out that door.

1013
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 1: I recently read in a book about the Accatraz prison

1014
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: break back in the sixties. It was not nearly as

1015
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 1: easy for those kids. It was not well. I mean,

1016
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 1: people say he's one of those guys too. Yeah, there

1017
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: are people who have a sideline this theory. But that's

1018
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:50,399
Speaker 1: one of the things that also gets brought up. Yeah,

1019
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 1: I have a suspicion those guys all drowned. Yeah, I

1020
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 1: would guess that as well. This was pretty well planned,

1021
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: I think, because He's wasn't reported missing to the least

1022
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 1: for like three days after because of protocol. That's what

1023
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: they say, Well, do you have an inside man? I

1024
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:13,359
Speaker 1: know they're the prison did a head count every day,

1025
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: but they didn't do a head count until the evening,

1026
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 1: and Steve's walked away in the morning, and so he

1027
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 1: wasn't counted missing until that night. And then for whatever reason,

1028
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 1: the police or the prison guards just decided that the

1029
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: police probably didn't need to know about that for a

1030
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: couple of days. I don't know, maybe they thought they

1031
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: had just misplaced him or something. I'm not really sure. Anyway, obviously,

1032
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 1: by the time the police found out the trail was

1033
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: totally cold and they had nothing to go on, so

1034
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: he's actually never been found. Steeves, and I guess I

1035
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: can see some similarities a little bit, not really really slight,

1036
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 1: but it's really slight between him and everybody else it is.

1037
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Steve, Steve's is a slightly bigger

1038
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: guy like he's you know, he's got a little chub

1039
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 1: on him. So I don't I guess I don't really

1040
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 1: know what he would look like if he lost a

1041
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: bunch of weight and was about the same weight as

1042
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 1: Chandler was. Um, but I still don't think they really

1043
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: looked that much alike, that they like anything alike realistically.

1044
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 1: You know, Uh, Steeves was born in nineteen thirty two,

1045
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 1: so he would have actually been a couple of years

1046
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: older than Joey, which would have corresponded well with you know,

1047
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 1: the fact that the thought that he was older he

1048
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: did have male pattern baldness. But again, you know, I

1049
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 1: can't find any information about stees other than what I've

1050
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 1: just told you, so I don't know. I mean, you know,

1051
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: it's a it's an interesting theory, but it's definitely not

1052
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: air tight. Yeah, I think that I think the Chandler

1053
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: has got a like a longer face, longer nose. I

1054
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 1: think that too, but I it's hard to tell. It's

1055
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: their faces have totally different shapes. They have their eyebrowsers

1056
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: shaped differently. Their noses are mean, you did either of

1057
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 1: you guys look at that. That was the one thing

1058
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 1: that really I really found enjoyable with crime Shadows dot com,

1059
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 1: the one that's in the way back machine. Whoever ran

1060
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 1: that took the time to make gifts of superimposing photos

1061
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: on top of each other just with Campbell? Was it

1062
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 1: just with Campbell? I thought there was more than one,

1063
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 1: But it was really kind of funny because the way

1064
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: that it was done was just kind of hacked together.

1065
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 1: It's not great, that's true, and it's it was. It

1066
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: was just so funny that that was their tool to

1067
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 1: make him prove that he's this person. OK, yeah, no,

1068
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: I agree with you. Uh. Next, Chandler could be the

1069
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer DA killer. This is not an episode on

1070
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 1: the Zodiac Killer. This is not an episode on the

1071
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer. Let's talk about the Zodiac Killer. Zodiac and

1072
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 1: Chandler were in California. If if Chandler was indeed in

1073
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: California around the same time the Zodiac Killer just loves

1074
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper And you know, Joseph Chandler was the

1075
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 1: name of the head inspector in the Ripper case. From

1076
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 1: to eight lovers in Ohio were killed in a similar

1077
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 1: fashion to the Zodiac which is you know, like just

1078
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: when we can really confirm that Chandler was in Ohio

1079
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 1: and then he gave it up for twenty years and

1080
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 1: killed himself. I yeah, right, I mean, that's that's that's

1081
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 1: my biggest thing, is um they One of the things

1082
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: about the Zodiac Killer is that he definitely had much

1083
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 1: more control over his compulsion than many serial killers. But

1084
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: when we get down to it, he was a serial killer,

1085
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 1: and I don't think that he would have been able

1086
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 1: to not kill anybody for god, how many years is that?

1087
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 1: It's like twenty years almost exactly. You know, if I

1088
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 1: was going to be a serial killer, you know what

1089
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 1: I would do. I would just change my m OH

1090
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 1: all the time. Well that's what Zodiac did. But that's

1091
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 1: what the Zodiac did. That's why he was never really caught.

1092
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: He changed his m O. And you know, I guess

1093
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 1: it's possible that there was the rand Um murder here there,

1094
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 1: and he just got really good at covering it up

1095
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 1: and all of that stuff. But again, I just don't think.

1096
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: I don't think this is it. But I did read

1097
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: one Internet comment which I just loved, and it was

1098
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 1: that this person said that she saw the Zodiac Killer

1099
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 1: when she was six um and that when she saw

1100
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,919
Speaker 1: the mug shot of Chandler, or not the mug shot,

1101
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: the I D picture of Chandler, she immediately knew it

1102
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: was the same man. I saw a picture of Santa

1103
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: Claus once and I knew it was Santa Claus. I

1104
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 1: did too, And I mean, you know the other thing

1105
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 1: is right, like, you can't this isn't today. You know,

1106
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: in eight you can't just do a Google search for

1107
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 1: you know, deceased Joseph Chandler and come up with a

1108
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:47,919
Speaker 1: name and then go and get the records. So how

1109
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 1: would how would one if we're going to run down

1110
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: the rabbit hole of the Zodiac loved Jackie Repperon wanted

1111
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 1: to have his next alias B Joseph Joseph Chandler. How

1112
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 1: did he find this? Absolutely that would be look if

1113
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 1: for a needle in a haystack? Would and why that

1114
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 1: particular name you know, out of all the names and

1115
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, you know, Yeah, why that guy, Yeah exactly.

1116
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. So I don't think that's a good theory.

1117
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 1: Zodiac and everybody likes to tie everything, everything to the zodiac.

1118
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 1: It is the go to you know. The interesting thing

1119
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 1: about the Zodiac killers, he really uh, he really didn't

1120
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 1: kill that many people, you know, and and I just

1121
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 1: got everybody's attention. Yeah, he's just the big one out there.

1122
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 1: There's people out there killed ten times as many people.

1123
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 1: And yeah, people don't even know their names, but they

1124
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 1: didn't taunt the letters. So we're still trying to break

1125
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 1: the code. Yeah they are. Yeah, I guess there's one

1126
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 1: last theory, and that's just some random person avoiding I

1127
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 1: don't know, child support, you know, bills or literally insert

1128
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 1: anything here. Well there's that guy that just recently there's

1129
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 1: that article the found him in Europe I think it was,

1130
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 1: and he'd been missing for six years from the States.

1131
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 1: Six tears. Yeah, it doesn't matter. There was a typo

1132
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 1: in the original headline and it said he was missing

1133
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 1: for six tears. I didn't see that one. But he

1134
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 1: was gone for six years. His family didn't know where

1135
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 1: he was, and then they find him and he's like, oh, yeah, no,

1136
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: I'm fine. No, I don't I don't want to talk

1137
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:23,800
Speaker 1: to you people. No, no, and he just like he

1138
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: won't have any contact with his family. I mean, that's

1139
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 1: what John John Dial was doing. I mean, he just

1140
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 1: didn't want to have contact with their family. And then

1141
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 1: one day, you know, finally, I think it got to

1142
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 1: the point where he said, oh my god, you guys,

1143
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: I'm not okay, fine, I'm alive. Yes, I'm alive. People

1144
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 1: people have fallings out with family all the time and say,

1145
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:45,080
Speaker 1: you know what, you're a bunch of jerks. I'm never

1146
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: talking to you again, and move and never talk to

1147
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 1: him again. Although you don't necessarily need to steal someone's

1148
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 1: identity to do that, especially in the seventies. No, I'm

1149
01:03:57,320 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 1: not going to disagree with that at all, but it's

1150
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 1: people do weird stuff to really really take it as

1151
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 1: far as they could. And and he was he was

1152
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 1: an hardball, so he may have said, you know, his

1153
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: he seemed to have a very methodical side to him,

1154
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 1: so he may have said, to do this, I have

1155
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: to do this, and I have to do that. And

1156
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 1: so he went ahead and he did all those things,

1157
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:21,960
Speaker 1: even though he probably could have just moved to another

1158
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 1: the state and never given them his phone number. Yeah,

1159
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 1: it would have been really easy for him. Yeah. Um,

1160
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 1: I I told the you guys, though, I went ahead

1161
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 1: and checked the FBI FBI vault for this name. The

1162
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 1: Joseph was his middle name again Newton, Thank you, Joseph

1163
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 1: Newton Chandler. Nothing comes up on Joseph Newton Chandler the third.

1164
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 1: But I found some interesting results for Joseph Newton Chandler,

1165
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 1: some of which makes sense, some of which I make

1166
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 1: absolutely no sense. Um, like the Black Panthers. Um. But

1167
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 1: there was the Dillinger gang from the thirties, which the

1168
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 1: time frame doesn't work on that. Uh. There was the

1169
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 1: Bremer kidnapping, which was a gang gangster kidnapping, which was

1170
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 1: in the late thirties, I believe. Um. But that's that

1171
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 1: kind of brought the FEDS down on him and they

1172
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 1: took the entire gang out. Um. There's another guy by

1173
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 1: the name of Ralph Row. He comes up in it,

1174
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 1: but again he's another gangster from the thirties who's killed.

1175
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 1: But the one that actually was really interesting to me

1176
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:32,320
Speaker 1: is that the name came up in documents about Jonestown. Jonestown,

1177
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:37,680
Speaker 1: the drinking the flavor Aid happened in late seventy eight,

1178
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 1: so it's possible that he was an early UM defector,

1179
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: or he survived the whole thing and just went I

1180
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 1: never want to be found by these people again. I'm

1181
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 1: changing who I am. Understandable now, It's true his name

1182
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 1: came up in the files about Jonestown. Was he actually

1183
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 1: a memori? Actually the problem is is that I didn't

1184
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 1: think to check the vault until today, and it was

1185
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 1: in one of those PDFs that's a hundred and some

1186
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 1: odd pages long, and it's all photocopied. I'm not easily readable, right,

1187
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 1: So I looked at him, and so I just started

1188
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,919
Speaker 1: skimming through the results, but I couldn't find exactly where

1189
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:19,920
Speaker 1: it was. But I just said, I was like, well,

1190
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:22,920
Speaker 1: you know, that's actually it's one of those big things

1191
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 1: that people may never want to be associated with. They

1192
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 1: just up and leave because of it. Yeah, except for

1193
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 1: that's just the same name. Yeah, that's the problem with it. Yeah,

1194
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,600
Speaker 1: that's the problem. I guess. The other thing that would

1195
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 1: be interesting is if he was connected to you know,

1196
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 1: the Dillinger or like any of the mob you know stuff.

1197
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 1: The fact that he went dressed the one time he

1198
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 1: ever went to address that party, he went dressed as

1199
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:48,800
Speaker 1: a gangster is kind of interesting. Yeah. Well, I mean

1200
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:51,360
Speaker 1: I don't think the time frame really necessarily lines up.

1201
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 1: But no, and I looked up a you know, unless

1202
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 1: he was like a kid. Maybe he was like a

1203
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 1: ten year old kid who saw something and uh it

1204
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 1: was witness protection and it just was so long standing that,

1205
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 1: you know, the Marshalls didn't even have any I don't

1206
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 1: think so. I mean, I'm just speculating. I looked stuff

1207
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:10,520
Speaker 1: about because there's there's speculation on the internet that he

1208
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 1: was a gangster who was on the run. Not necessarily

1209
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 1: a witness protection which on the run, but it is

1210
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 1: it's just so impossible to find who disappeared, because guys

1211
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 1: in the mob disappeared all the time. Yeah, I don't

1212
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:28,800
Speaker 1: think I put it in the same the same stand

1213
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 1: as I do with the zodiac. It's an easy go to, Yeah,

1214
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 1: easy whoa, Well, he was hiding, it was hiding. Well,

1215
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 1: he must have been of the mob. That's the easy answer.

1216
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 1: Is it's really easy. Who knows he had a secret,

1217
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 1: He wanted to get away from somebody, hiding the long

1218
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean, you know, Marshall Elliott has quoted

1219
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: on the internet is saying that he's very certain that

1220
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 1: that Chandler was a violent fugitive m but you know,

1221
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 1: everybody who ever encountered him in his life said they

1222
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 1: didn't have the sense that he was violent at all.

1223
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 1: Although maybe that's why, you know, he's got the headphones

1224
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 1: on all the time. He's a recluse because he just

1225
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 1: if he knows, he knows if he interacts with people

1226
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:12,320
Speaker 1: too much, he might become violent. I don't know. Yeah,

1227
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 1: what people know it was to get older too. I mean,

1228
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe as violent crimes or crime days were behind,

1229
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 1: or maybe they were you know, alcohol, Yeah it could be.

1230
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 1: You know, maybe he had a problem with alcohol, that's

1231
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 1: why he didn't drink. Yeah, it could have been. Do

1232
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 1: you guys have anything else you want to talk about

1233
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 1: with this, because there's a bajillion could have gone. I'm sorry,

1234
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:31,760
Speaker 1: this is an unsatisfying one where I just don't have

1235
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 1: a good answer. We'll stay tuned though, you never know. Yeah,

1236
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:36,599
Speaker 1: I could probably dig up a few bodies, maybe they'll

1237
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:39,760
Speaker 1: solve it. When I talk to Pete Elliott today, he said,

1238
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:42,240
Speaker 1: he said, you know, police, send any any information you

1239
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 1: turn up, police, send it my way. He's still actively

1240
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 1: pursuing the case. Yeah, he is, And so listeners out there,

1241
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 1: anybody has any evidence, so you know, shoot it our way.

1242
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 1: We'll forward it onto the marshal world. Yeah, don't send

1243
01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 1: it in yourself. We'll do it for you. We'll take

1244
01:08:57,360 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 1: the credit. Well yeah, we'll totally give you credit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1245
01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:03,679
Speaker 1: If you do want some credit, then fine, fine, fine,

1246
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:05,680
Speaker 1: we'll find a way to get you hooked up with

1247
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 1: the Marshals or send you a T shirt or something,

1248
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 1: you know, whatever gives you a free podcast or something

1249
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 1: like that. That we can probably do that. Yeah. Well, um,

1250
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:19,680
Speaker 1: if you want to see any of the links, I

1251
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 1: think probably will post at least one of the links

1252
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:26,479
Speaker 1: that is connected through the way back machine. Um, and

1253
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 1: then a couple other things. So if you want to

1254
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 1: find those links without having to find them yourselves, which

1255
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:33,960
Speaker 1: is kind of pain, I can tell you that'll be

1256
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:37,439
Speaker 1: on our website that's thinking sideways podcast dot com. You

1257
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,280
Speaker 1: are probably listening to us on iTunes or streaming us,

1258
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 1: or listening to us on Google Play. If you're doing

1259
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:47,000
Speaker 1: any of those and for some reason you have not

1260
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 1: subscribed yet, why don't you do that? And then you

1261
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:52,760
Speaker 1: can also give us a comment or a review and

1262
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:56,600
Speaker 1: a rating. UM on iTunes, I think on some of

1263
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 1: the streaming ones you can too. If you can just

1264
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 1: do it, it helps people find us. UM. Obviously we

1265
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:05,559
Speaker 1: hope you'll leave a good one, but if you don't, well,

1266
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 1: and we're getting thanks to Google Play, we're getting a

1267
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 1: whole bunch of new listeners. So welcome to everybody that

1268
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:13,519
Speaker 1: in the last month or so since Google Play really

1269
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:16,920
Speaker 1: released all the Google Music released, all the podcast stuff,

1270
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:22,519
Speaker 1: tons of people. Yeah, we're on Facebook. We've got a

1271
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 1: group and a page if you want. This is just

1272
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 1: a quick word of advice. If you want to have discussion,

1273
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 1: do it in the group. If you post on our

1274
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:34,360
Speaker 1: Facebook page like a question for our audience, nobody will.

1275
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:37,080
Speaker 1: We will respond to you, but nobody. But the way

1276
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:38,600
Speaker 1: we will respond to you is to say, hey, you

1277
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:42,680
Speaker 1: should probably post this in the group. Um. We've got

1278
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:46,720
Speaker 1: a Twitter it's Thinking Sideways. We've got a subreddit which

1279
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 1: is just our thinking sideways. You can email us if

1280
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:54,800
Speaker 1: you have comments about this, feving information, if you have

1281
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 1: story suggestions, if you're an expert. Also if you have

1282
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 1: any constructive criticism that you'd like to get out there,

1283
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:03,280
Speaker 1: that's a pretty good forum. If you want to do

1284
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:04,840
Speaker 1: it in a public forum, do it. Please do it

1285
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:07,439
Speaker 1: on like Facebook or somewhere where we can respond to you.

1286
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,599
Speaker 1: You can talk about that somewhere. That's a hundred character

1287
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:14,479
Speaker 1: limit hopefully, yeah. Um, so you can email us. That

1288
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:17,519
Speaker 1: email address is Thinking Slave podcast at gmail dot com.

1289
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:19,800
Speaker 1: And then, last but not least, if you would like

1290
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:22,120
Speaker 1: to support the show in any way. We do have

1291
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:24,680
Speaker 1: the merch links on the website. You can get a

1292
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 1: shirt or a sticker or whatever. But if you'd like

1293
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 1: to donate, just like money, you can do a one

1294
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 1: time donation via PayPal and that links on the website,

1295
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 1: or you can become a sustaining member and donate per

1296
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:40,120
Speaker 1: episode on Patreon, which is patreon dot com slash Thinking

1297
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:44,120
Speaker 1: Sideways and everybody remember Patreon is an ongoing thing, so

1298
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:46,599
Speaker 1: it's it's per episode. So if you say you want

1299
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 1: to give a buck, that's a buck per episode, which

1300
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:53,360
Speaker 1: we love. Thank you so much, absolutely, it is. It

1301
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:57,040
Speaker 1: is amazing. We wholly appreciate it. Um. I know that

1302
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:00,080
Speaker 1: it seems that there's a little bit of confused and

1303
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:03,400
Speaker 1: sometimes in the way Patreon works with the amount you're

1304
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 1: pledging versus the limit that you said, because you can

1305
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:08,519
Speaker 1: limit it, you can say I can't. You know, you

1306
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:11,599
Speaker 1: say you want to spend ten bucks a month, it'll

1307
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:13,560
Speaker 1: stop you at the ten bucks. But that seems to

1308
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 1: have caused some confusions, so be aware that that's how

1309
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 1: that works. It'll never just keep rolling on you yea.

1310
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:22,599
Speaker 1: So all of that having been said, I think we're

1311
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:24,800
Speaker 1: just going to go ahead and get on out of here.

1312
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:27,560
Speaker 1: I think so it's time we solved this one. This

1313
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:31,240
Speaker 1: is the last. All right, bye everybody, Bye, guys,