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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Neighbors in fear a beloved couple found the hubby beheaded

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Speaker 2: in the garage. Yes, you heard me, the husband found

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Speaker 2: decapitated in the garage.

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Speaker 1: The wife nobody could.

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Speaker 2: Find for the longest time, and then she was found

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Speaker 2: by fishermen in the lake, tied to a cement chunk.

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Speaker 2: Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 2: you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: Russell and Shirley Durmond are happily married and living in

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Speaker 3: a beautiful lakefront property Lake of Coney, Georgia. The couple

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Speaker 3: is expected at a Kentucky Derby watch party with neighbors,

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Speaker 3: but don't show up. When the neighbors reach out by phone,

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Speaker 3: the Dermins don't pick up. Days later, however, arriving at

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Speaker 3: the Dermoin's home, the neighbor's surprised to find the front

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Speaker 3: door unlocked, calling out their names. Nobody replies with.

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Speaker 2: Me in allstar panel to make since we says of

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Speaker 2: what we know right now about the Dorman's disappearance, and

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Speaker 2: I want to go first to a special guest joining

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Speaker 2: us from Putnham County. The elected sheriff Sheriff Howard Seals,

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Speaker 2: Sheriff Seals, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it odd that the.

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Speaker 2: Smallest in detail can raise the red alarm? Right, the

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Speaker 2: flag of alarm. When this neighbor realized that the door

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Speaker 2: was not secure, that it was unlocked, right then the

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Speaker 2: neighbor knew something was terribly wrong.

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Speaker 4: A lot of suspects, but a lot of people there

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Speaker 4: in this community still do a lot of the doors.

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Speaker 5: Nancy, Yeah, you know what.

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Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with Putnham County.

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Speaker 2: I was the camp counselor there at a national forest,

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Speaker 2: the four h Rock Eagle Camp, and it is beautiful,

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Speaker 2: but it's also very densely forested with a lot of lakes.

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Speaker 2: And this home was on the beautiful lake Otony. Those

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Speaker 2: are beautiful homes.

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Speaker 5: Right there on the lake right this very well, this

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Speaker 5: was part of Reynolds at Lake o'cony, so very exclusive

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Speaker 5: neighborhood of very expensive homes.

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Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan is joining me, Professor of forensics at

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Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, death

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Speaker 2: investigator and host of a hit series.

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Speaker 1: Body Bags of Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, you and I have been to the scene

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Speaker 2: and a very very extensively walked the area.

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Speaker 1: Not only is the dense forest an issue.

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Speaker 3: But.

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Speaker 2: The fact that this is such a high end property

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Speaker 2: a gated community where crime is very, very low.

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Speaker 1: That's the first oddity in this.

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Speaker 6: You know, sheriff. The sheriff had mentioned this being rentals

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Speaker 6: rentals plantation for those of us from anywhere around South

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Speaker 6: approximate in this area, we're very familiar with this location.

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Speaker 6: You're talking about very high end living, and you have

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Speaker 6: an expectation of safety in these particular parts where you

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Speaker 6: know something this horrible and this is at the top

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Speaker 6: of the scale, Nancy, as far as cases go that

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Speaker 6: we've been covering Loath these many years, you don't expect

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Speaker 6: something this horrific to have occurred in this Rather, I

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Speaker 6: don't know how to say it other than just kind

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Speaker 6: of safe and bucolic location here on this beautiful lake Ocone,

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Speaker 6: And you begin to think about points of access. How

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Speaker 6: in the world would somebody be brave enough to go

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Speaker 6: into this location and how did they access this home

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Speaker 6: in this gated community, And it smacks a level of

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Speaker 6: familiarity with the area. To me, it always has, at least.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, hold on right there, Joe Scott.

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Speaker 2: Everything you're saying is absolutely correct, but I want to

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Speaker 2: hone in on it.

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Speaker 1: Before I miss a point.

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Speaker 2: You know, I feel like an English teacher, you know

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Speaker 2: how they dissect the sentences on the blackboard.

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Speaker 6: Yes, and don't ask me what a jarin is because

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Speaker 6: I still have to figure that out.

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Speaker 2: But you just gave me so much information and everybody

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Speaker 2: on the panel, do I have to remind you we're

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Speaker 2: not having high tea at Buckingham Palace. Jump in if

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Speaker 2: you have a thought, because although the sheriff has been

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Speaker 2: working this case, I'm sure he's open to any new ideas.

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, you mentioned the level of familiarity as you said, Okay,

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Speaker 2: if somebody said to me, okay, I want you to

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Speaker 2: fly over to Oregon and I want you to find

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Speaker 2: Oregon Forest Tree neighborhood and go to this certain house,

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Speaker 2: I would not have any idea what they were talking about. Right,

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Speaker 2: We're in Oregon. You know how wooded Oregon is. So

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Speaker 2: where is this neighborhood? It's gated? How am I going

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Speaker 2: to get in unless I climb over a fence? And

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Speaker 2: do I have access to get in? And then you

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Speaker 2: go back through all these windy roads, how are you

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Speaker 2: going to find the place?

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Speaker 1: How are you going to find the victims?

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Speaker 2: How are you going to dispose of the wife with

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Speaker 2: nobody seeing or hearing a thing?

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Speaker 1: And I grew up on a red dirt road, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: as you know.

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Speaker 2: So when you refer to quote high end living, what

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Speaker 2: exactly do you mean by that?

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Speaker 4: Let me just say this. We've got a link that

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Speaker 4: spans five counties, and the opportunity to get there by

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Speaker 4: water is infinitestible. Okay. Likewise, and when you talk about

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Speaker 4: where do you go if you're looking for Russell Durman,

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Speaker 4: you can go on the website of the Putnam County

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Speaker 4: Taxis Sisters website and find out exactly.

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Speaker 1: We won't click, but that would.

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Speaker 2: And you're right, you're totally right about all of what

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Speaker 2: you just said, Sheriff. But that takes me to someone

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Speaker 2: with a boat. Okay, that means money. Somebody with a

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Speaker 2: boat on Lake Oconey, which narrows my suspect pool. Somebody

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Speaker 2: that would take a boat to their home, docket, commit

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Speaker 2: the murders, and then take the wife's body tied to

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Speaker 2: a cement rock, chuck out into the water. Who would

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Speaker 2: approach this by boat? And as far as the tax assessment,

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Speaker 2: you're right again share of sales, But that tells me

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Speaker 2: a lot about the purp. Somebody that's familiar with the computer,

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Speaker 2: somebody would think, hey, if I go to the tax

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Speaker 2: assessor's website, I can find this guy that's very targeted.

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Speaker 2: So Scott, when you refer to high end living, what's that.

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Speaker 6: Well, you think you have access to all of these

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Speaker 6: amenities around there, not just the lake, but very high

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Speaker 6: end golfing. If anyone's ever heard of rentals plantation, this

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Speaker 6: is not something just somebody off the street can walk

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Speaker 6: in and afford to do. And that tells you a

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Speaker 6: lot about the Germans, I think relative to the life

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Speaker 6: that they had chosen to live in this supposedly secure

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Speaker 6: location where they could live out their golden years in

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Speaker 6: this particular spot. And back to the lake, just one

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Speaker 6: more second here, going to familiarity, I think that it's

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Speaker 6: key because unless it was perhaps a neighbor that had

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Speaker 6: access to a boat that could do this sort of thing,

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Speaker 6: we have to think about, well, how familiar are they

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Speaker 6: with local boat ramps where you can launch a boat

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Speaker 6: to get into this location? And you begin to think

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Speaker 6: about nighttime and being able to kind of navigate your

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Speaker 6: way through this environment, and the placement of the remains

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Speaker 6: is certainly key here as well.

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Speaker 2: So bottom line, let me understand this, Dave mag joining

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Speaker 2: me Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter.

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Speaker 1: The cheapest house you can get.

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Speaker 2: And when you hear Joe Scott Morgan referring to high

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Speaker 2: end living his words, not mine, I'm trying to get

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Speaker 2: my head wrapped around that because we thought we were

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Speaker 2: living high end when we finally got a washer and

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Speaker 2: a dryer. Yeah, washer and dryer. That was the big

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Speaker 2: time for us, and we would all just go look

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Speaker 2: at it. We were not allowed to touch it, of course,

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Speaker 2: until we learned kind of use it. But that said,

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Speaker 2: did you know, Dave Matt that the cheapest place, the

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Speaker 2: cheapest house you can get at this RENTLDS plantation on

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Speaker 2: this lake is in the over five hundred thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: approaching six hundred thousand.

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Speaker 1: That's the cheapest.

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Speaker 3: It's an amazing, beautiful place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And you know, Dave Matt, as you and I have

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Speaker 2: discussed many many times off camera, I don't care if

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Speaker 2: the victims are rich, poor, middle class, if they got

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Speaker 2: a PhD. Or they dropped out in third grade, don't care.

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Speaker 2: My point is the level of crime in this gated

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Speaker 2: community with multimillion dollar dollar homes on the lake front

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Speaker 2: is zero. I mean, nobody is getting murdered, much less

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Speaker 2: beheaded in this area.

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Speaker 1: That's where I'm headed, Dave Matt.

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Speaker 3: Nancy, when you really look at this, okay, and no,

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Speaker 3: nobody's getting beheaded, nobody's getting kidnapped, nobody's getting murdered in

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Speaker 3: this beautiful place. But Nancy, this wasn't even a robbery. Okay,

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Speaker 3: the limited the level of crime here is very very low.

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Speaker 3: But again, remember here we have two people dead in

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Speaker 3: the most heinous way you can imagine, and yet there

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Speaker 3: wasn't It wasn't like there was a robbery going on

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Speaker 3: and they surprised the burglars and it blew up. There

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Speaker 3: was no robbery, There was nothing taken. And by the way,

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Speaker 3: doesn't even look like there's any evidence inside the house

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Speaker 3: that they were killed inside the house.

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Speaker 1: Who would be had the.

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Speaker 2: Dad and tie this grandma to a cement chunk and

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Speaker 2: throw her to the bottom of the lake. Who this

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Speaker 2: is not your ordinary barbral Joe Scott Morgan professor forensics.

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Speaker 2: So we're looking at an entirely different suspect Pool.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you certainly are. You're looking at somebody that has

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Speaker 6: that has a certain level of planning. You know, this

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Speaker 6: is not obviously some kind of spontaneous event where one

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Speaker 6: person says something it makes somebody angry and they just

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Speaker 6: fly off the handle and you've got an assault at least,

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Speaker 6: so homicide nothing like that. This takes preparation, It takes

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Speaker 6: tom and again I come back to this benchmark throughout

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Speaker 6: this entire case. It involves familiarity with the location, you know,

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Speaker 6: access and opportunity. How could you know this? How could

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Speaker 6: you be aware of tomlines? How could you be aware

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Speaker 6: of where to deposit a body and to do it

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Speaker 6: in a stealthy manner?

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Speaker 1: Guys, I want to go back to the scene. What

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Speaker 1: can we learn?

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Speaker 3: Listen, the same neighbor decides to look in the garage

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Speaker 3: to see if the Dermoin's car is there. It's there.

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Speaker 3: In the garage. The neighbor discovers Russell Durmont laying on

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Speaker 3: the garage floor, decapitated.

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Speaker 2: So the neighbor realizes that something is very wrong. To

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Speaker 2: doctor John Delatory, psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic

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Speaker 2: psychology and you can find him at resolution fcs dot com.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Delatory, thank you for being with us. If there's

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Speaker 2: no sex attack and there's no robbery, who would.

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Speaker 1: Go to the effort.

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Speaker 2: I'm not just killing this beloved couple, not just killing them,

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Speaker 2: but decapitating the father and tying the mom to a

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Speaker 2: cement chunk and throwing her in the water.

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Speaker 1: Why.

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Speaker 7: I think this is someone who feels offended somehow. The

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Speaker 7: Dermot's offended this individual. The Dermans may not even know

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Speaker 7: what they did, or they might not even know who

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Speaker 7: this perpetrator actually was, but this person felt offended by

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Speaker 7: what was going on. And I think he was offended.

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Speaker 7: I say he because more likely he is the offender,

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Speaker 7: is that he But I think he was offended by

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Speaker 7: mister Dermott. I think a lot of it is probably

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Speaker 7: targeted because of whatever it was that that.

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Speaker 6: He was doing.

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Speaker 7: I think this is I think he wanted mister Dermot

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Speaker 7: to watch what the offender was going to do to

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Speaker 7: missus Dermott. I think that there's a lot more sort

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Speaker 7: of internal struggle strive for that. There's a lot of

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Speaker 7: anger that is associated with this that I'm not even

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Speaker 7: sure this family even knew existed or even knew that

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Speaker 7: this person existed before it all happened.

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Speaker 2: Okay to Sheriff Howard Seals joining us Cela does Sheriff

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Speaker 2: they're in Putnam County, Sheriff Sales. We hear doctor Jelaty,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not saying that he's wrong, but I said.

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Speaker 1: Let's follow it through to its logical conclusion.

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Speaker 2: Someone angry with mister dermotd angry about what, angry about

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Speaker 2: what he was doing?

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Speaker 1: What was he doing?

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Speaker 4: Well, I don't know that, but I agree with his

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Speaker 4: assessment of that because the assault of missus Dermot was

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Speaker 4: quite violent. She was struck multiple times through the skull

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Speaker 4: with something like a hammer. I don't know if it

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Speaker 4: was a hammer, but something like that. And that's particularly violent.

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Speaker 4: And there's some evidence that we have that I don't

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Speaker 4: want to go into great detail, that mister Durman was

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Speaker 4: present when that occurred. We do not believe she was

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Speaker 4: killed at the house, and we believe he was shot

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Speaker 4: only because there was some gunshot residue on his shirt.

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Speaker 4: So it's very much a violent crime, very much pointed

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Speaker 4: toward them. We've never thought otherwise and it's but through

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Speaker 4: you cannot imagine what we've done from the standpoint of

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Speaker 4: technology MinC records. I mean, you just can't imagine. But

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Speaker 4: we just simply have not been able to find that

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Speaker 4: individual that would have had that type of animosity so far.

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Speaker 3: Russell Durman's body is found lying between the two cars

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Speaker 3: in the garage. He's wearing a short sleeved shirt and

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Speaker 3: a pair of boxers, and he's found lying on top

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Speaker 3: of a robe while his slippers are tossed to the side.

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Speaker 3: Russell Durman's bear feet are stained with blood and there's

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Speaker 3: a faint red trail smeared from the door all the

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Speaker 3: way to his body. Towels have been placed around impresumably

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Speaker 3: to prevent blood from leaking under the garage door. His

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Speaker 3: hands are bruised and bloody, with a severe gash on

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Speaker 3: the left index finger. Strands of Shirley Derman's hairritangle within

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Speaker 3: Russell Durmant's fingers, suggesting a struggle between de Durman's and

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Speaker 3: their attacker.

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Speaker 2: Boy, do I need a professor of forensics right now?

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan? Do you hear all that that's a

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Speaker 2: lot of forensic evidence to wade through.

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Speaker 6: It certainly is, and you begin to think about the

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Speaker 6: dynamics of the attack, as Sheriff had mentioned earlier on

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Speaker 6: Missus Dermot, which is quite intriguing from a forensic standpoint

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Speaker 6: when you talk about what type of weapon this individual

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Speaker 6: showed up with or perhaps access from the home in

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Speaker 6: order to commit such an attack like this. It's very upclose, personal,

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Speaker 6: very bloody affair, you would think. And then you have

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Speaker 6: this contact trace evidence that goes over to mister Dermott.

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Speaker 6: It gives you an idea of the intimacy the proximity

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Speaker 6: of these two individuals is there as the attack is

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Speaker 6: going on, and you know, for me, I'm thinking what

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Speaker 6: would be what would be the end game here relative

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Speaker 6: to one of these individuals who have been married for

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Speaker 6: years and years and years Nancy for the perp to

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Speaker 6: have terrorized them in front of one another. And so

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Speaker 6: that again goes to the dynamic of what the individual

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Speaker 6: that is that they're looking for the perp has against

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Speaker 6: these individuals. Because the level of violence we're talking about,

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Speaker 6: what do.

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Speaker 2: You make of the fact that Russell had his wife's

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Speaker 2: hair intertwined in his fingers.

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Speaker 6: I'd be interested to know how was it intertwined? Is

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Speaker 6: this something that had occurred as a result of hair

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Speaker 6: being pulled from her head by him? You have to

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Speaker 6: consider that, and then you also have to think about, well,

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Speaker 6: if there's like a copious amount of blood. Sometimes you know,

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Speaker 6: we slough hair, and many times if you have this

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Speaker 6: tackiness on the surface of the of the of the

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Speaker 6: hand and you're in proximity to loose hair, that can

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Speaker 6: transfer onto the hand. So I'd have to know about

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Speaker 6: the placement of the hair. I'd like to know what

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Speaker 6: his fingernails look like if they and I'm sure that

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Speaker 6: they probably did. The State Medical Examiner's Office did nail

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Speaker 6: trimmings and scrapings on both of these. Well, probably not

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Speaker 6: miss Dermin, that wouldn't have offered much information, but certainly

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Speaker 6: mister Dermot because he was found in a dry environment.

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Speaker 2: I'm very curious because this reminds me of the Scott

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Speaker 2: Peterson case where he murdered Lacey and his unborn child Connor.

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Speaker 2: Looking at these two in their youth so in love,

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Speaker 2: remember Joe Scott that Lacy's hair wasn't just sitting on

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Speaker 2: Scott Peterson's toolbox. It wasn't just sitting on a pair

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Speaker 2: of long nosed pliers. It was intertwined in the pliers. Now,

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Speaker 2: how did that happen? Same thing here we've got to

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Speaker 2: find out. How was her hair on his hand? Was

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Speaker 2: it in between his fingers? Was it stuck on his

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Speaker 2: wedding band? Was it stuck in.

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Speaker 1: Blood that had dried? Did it come from her head?

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Speaker 2: In other words, was the root still attached, the nucleus

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Speaker 2: still attached.

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Speaker 1: To the hair.

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Speaker 2: Was it a transfer from dragging his body across the

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Speaker 2: floor and he got a hair on his hands. We

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Speaker 2: don't know the answer to that, and that's very important.

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Speaker 2: Would you agree, yes.

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Speaker 6: I would The dynamic that you're thinking about relative two bodies.

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Speaker 6: After when you have a multiple homicide, for instance, what's

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Speaker 6: the perpetrator going to do with the bodies? And let's

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Speaker 6: just say, for instance, you have a circumstance where you

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Speaker 6: have two bodies that are essentially contacting one of one

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Speaker 6: another at least for a period of time. Any number

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Speaker 6: of things can transfer from one body to the other,

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Speaker 6: And I think probably the sheriff is certainly considering this

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Speaker 6: and this ongoing investigation. He has to it to think about,

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Speaker 6: you know, those points of contact along the way both

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Speaker 6: inside the house in the garage and this mysterious vessel

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Speaker 6: that we might be talking about as well as here,

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Speaker 6: because you know, literally with that, with that boat, you've

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Speaker 6: got a floating crime. I'm seen as well.

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Speaker 1: You really do.

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Speaker 2: Sheriff Howard steals with us. He elected sheriff in Putnam County.

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Speaker 2: What about the hair? I've heard the description that it

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Speaker 2: was intertwined in his fingers.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct?

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Speaker 4: We believe and I believe what happened is mister Durman

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Speaker 4: reached out to block the blow against his wife's head

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Speaker 4: when they enter, and that caused the laceration. This and

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Speaker 4: also it was a compound fracture and the finger and

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Speaker 4: that's where the hair was. So I think that he

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Speaker 4: was actually attempting to defend the blow against his wife

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Speaker 4: and that's how it got in there. It's pretty clear.

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Speaker 4: That's what it is to me.

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Speaker 2: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now. Is an

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Speaker 2: esteemed scientist. It is doctor Kristen Middleman, the chief Developlopment

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Speaker 2: officer at Authram Labs. You can find her at DNA

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Speaker 2: solves dot com. A renowned scientist. And when I say

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Speaker 2: she is a chief development officer, she is a scientist,

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Speaker 2: an expert in cutting edge DNA technology. Doctor Bentleman, thank

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Speaker 2: you for being with us. This has got to be

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Speaker 2: a scientist like you. A dream, a coin ucopia of

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Speaker 2: DNA evidence.

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Speaker 8: Actually it's a nightmare DNA evidence because there is so

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Speaker 8: much blood, there is so much gruesomeness that belongs to

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Speaker 8: the victims in this crime scene that it overshadows and

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Speaker 8: overtakes the DNA evidence left by perpetrators. But yes, there

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Speaker 8: is definitely a lot of DNA evidence here, and that's

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Speaker 8: part of what makes this crime scene where you have

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Speaker 8: to figure out multiple different types of evidence to test

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Speaker 8: to try to figure out who might have committed this

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Speaker 8: crime and if it was only one person that committed

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Speaker 8: this crime or multiple.

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Speaker 3: Investigators began a neighborhood search and beyond for Shirley Dermot

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Speaker 3: without success. The decapitated body of her husband, Russell Dermott,

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Speaker 3: was placed in the garage with towels placed around the body.

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Speaker 3: Early on, investigators believed Russell was killed elsewhere and his

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Speaker 3: body brought to the garage because the towels appeared to

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Speaker 3: be placed around his body to prevent blood from seeping

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Speaker 3: out under the garage door. But there doesn't appear to

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Speaker 3: be as much blood in the towels as would be

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Speaker 3: expected had he been decapitated while still alive. Where his

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Speaker 3: body is found?

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Speaker 2: Which to you, Sheriff Howard Sills, I led to Sheriff

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Speaker 2: Putnam County, leads me to the question, if not murdered there,

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Speaker 2: where were they killed and what was the purpose of

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Speaker 2: bringing them back to their own home?

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Speaker 4: Well, that's the million dollar question, and that if I

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Speaker 4: probably knew the answer, there'd be somebody in the back

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Speaker 4: back here today. But we don't believe obviously that she

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Speaker 4: was killed there, and while on earth they would have

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Speaker 4: brought his body back. I do not know. He was

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Speaker 4: certainly deceased at the time of the decapitation, So this

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Speaker 4: was more of a preventive for deep coop flu and

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Speaker 4: things like that leaking out from under the garage and door.

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Speaker 4: I think that actual blood.

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan joining us explain how a medical examiner can

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Speaker 2: determine if Russell was decapitated prior to his death, or

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Speaker 2: if that was the cause of the cause of death

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Speaker 2: or decapitated post mortem it was a.

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Speaker 6: Post mortem decapitation, or any severance of any appendance of

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Speaker 6: the body if it's in the post mortem state, you're

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Speaker 6: not going to have what we refer to as this

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Speaker 6: little focal, which means to be very specific areas of

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Speaker 6: hemorrhage into the soft tissue. And what that means is

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Speaker 6: that as the body is being traumatized in life, the

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Speaker 6: blood will actually leach out into the surrounding tissue where

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Speaker 6: the trauma has occurred. When we're doing an examination of

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Speaker 6: a body and we see, for instance, something as horrific

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Speaker 6: as this, we're going to look for hemorrhage. If you have, say,

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Speaker 6: what remains of the neck, you begin to kind of

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Speaker 6: circumferentially around the area where this has taken place, You're

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Speaker 6: going to look for hemorrhage in there. If you're absent

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Speaker 6: that hemorrhage, you can deduce at that point in time

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Speaker 6: that you're looking at a post mortem or after death injury.

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Speaker 2: And the sheriff seems very convinced. He said it as

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Speaker 2: a matter of fact that Russell was decapitated after he

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Speaker 2: was killed. The theory is that there were at least

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Speaker 2: two perpetrators.

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Speaker 3: Why what's Putnam County Sheriff Howard Zille says the evidence

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Speaker 3: points to at least two people being involved in the

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Speaker 3: murders of Russell and Shirley Durmot. The sheriff says he

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Speaker 3: believes the couple was murdered in a place as yet

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Speaker 3: unknown to investigators, and the double homicide appears to have

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Speaker 3: been personal, not something that happened during the commission of

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Speaker 3: another crime, such as a burglary, as nothing appears to

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Speaker 3: have been stolen.

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Speaker 2: Sheriff, why are you convinced through at least two perpetrators

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Speaker 2: that murder these two?

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Speaker 4: Well, missus Derman's body, I mean, we're talking about two

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Speaker 4: bodies here that were moved. She was disposed of by

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Speaker 4: boat five miles down the lake. And I just find

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Speaker 4: it almost impossible that one person could have picked up

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Speaker 4: bodies and things like that and moved them around from

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Speaker 4: one location to another, much less six miles down the

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Speaker 4: lake than tied the bag with the box and and

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Speaker 4: all that. I just found that highly unlikely. At least two.

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Speaker 4: It wouldn't surprise me. Quite can't through a more.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Kristen Middleman joining us t officer at off Ram

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Speaker 2: Labs who specialize and degraded or even old DNA really

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Speaker 2: working miracles.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Middleman, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: If you were advising a crew of forensics experts on

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Speaker 2: how and where they should look for DNA at this scene.

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Speaker 2: What would you tell them.

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Speaker 8: I would definitely look at everything that was just like

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Speaker 8: Joe said earlier, underneath fingernails, things that had touched the

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Speaker 8: body that may not have been overcome by all the

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Speaker 8: blood and all of the other fluids that were at

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Speaker 8: the crime scene. Because the victim was decapitated, that was

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Speaker 8: found in the garage, you have a lot of DNA

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Speaker 8: that belongs to the victim that may overpower any touch

440
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 8: DNA or DNA that was found on the towel or

441
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 8: the robe or anything that was around that victim to

442
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 8: stop bleeding. So those are things I would say, try

443
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 8: to find DNA that would be a higher mixture of

444
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 8: the perpetrator than it would be the victim, just like

445
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 8: skin cells, under fingernails or something the perpetrator may have

446
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 8: touched and not the victim or the victim's fluids. Now,

447
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 8: the other thing is you said earlier that maybe her

448
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 8: fingernails wouldn't be useful because they were at the bottom

449
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 8: of a lake. I still think that DNA could be

450
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 8: pulled from something like that. We have identified people that

451
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 8: have been chopped to bits and the suitcases at the

452
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 8: bottom of a lake for decades, bottom of sewage tanks.

453
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 8: So we have figured out ways to overcome water and

454
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 8: degradation that comes contamination that comes with being in water

455
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 8: for a very long time. So I would still look

456
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 8: at that evidence as well. Maybe because her body was

457
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 8: discarded before it was manipulated as much as his by

458
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 8: the decapitation, maybe there would be more DNA her body

459
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 8: that could be found that would be more perpetrator. That

460
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 8: would be my suggestion.

461
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 3: There is no evidence to suggest either of the dermoms

462
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 3: were killed inside their house. There is also no evidence

463
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: of the exact time and date of their death. Sheriff

464
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 3: Sills said Shirley Dermot was working on a crossword puzzle

465
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: out of US eight to day that's left on the

466
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 3: kitchen table. The Dermin's bed was unmade, and Russell Dermot

467
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 3: was found laying on top of his bathrobe wearing his

468
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 3: boxers and a T shirt. Which Sureley Dermom's body is

469
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 3: found in Lake Aconi. She is completely dressed.

470
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: To Sheriff Howard Zills joining us from Putnam County Sheriff,

471
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: that tells you about what time of the.

472
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: Day do you think these two were murdered.

473
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 4: Well, again, we don't really know. Because of talking to

474
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 4: the Durmo's children, we learned that when mister Dermot would

475
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 4: get up in the morning, if he didn't have anything

476
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 4: to do, that he would lounge around for several hours,

477
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 4: sometimes with his robe and bedclothes. However, her custom was

478
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 4: when she got up, she immediately became dressed. We do

479
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 4: know that a man was seen or somebody was seen

480
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 4: in the yard on the Saturday before the Kentucky derby,

481
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 4: so we actually think, because of all of that together

482
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 4: that this probably happened initially sometimes Saturday during the daytime.

483
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious just looking at people's behavior. He still

484
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: had on his boxers and a T shirt. She was

485
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: doing the crossword puzzle. Joining me is doctor John Delatory,

486
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: renowned psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic psychology.

487
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: Doctor Delatory number one.

488
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: I need to know the date of the USA Today

489
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: crossroord puzzle, and it's just striking me that this was

490
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: in the morning, which makes this even more of an aberration,

491
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: an oddity.

492
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, because they're unprepared, right, there's nothing to suggest that

493
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 7: anything is going on in their daily lives that made

494
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 7: them afraid of whatever it.

495
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: Is that's going on.

496
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 7: Even if there was an individual in their yard, it

497
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 7: certainly doesn't appear as though that individual shouldn't be there, right,

498
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 7: So there's a lot that's sort of just the routine, right,

499
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 7: the mundane, the regular things that these two individuals kind

500
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 7: of go through. They weren't expecting any of this to happen, so.

501
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: They weren't prepared.

502
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 7: This is not so much a blitz attack, because there's

503
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 7: nothing to suggest in the home that you know, all

504
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 7: of a sudden there was some kind of fight, but

505
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 7: there is something in which they were unprepared and they

506
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 7: just kind of it was just unexpected, and instead of

507
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 7: using force, the individual probably use some kind of coercive technique,

508
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 7: whether it was a gun or a weapon or something

509
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 7: like that. But there was more coercion, more verbal threats

510
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 7: more than there was physical threats.

511
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: Just Scott Morgan enjoining us for professor forensics. It's not

512
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: all about fingerprints and fibers. Let's take a look at it.

513
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 2: Joe Scott number one, the date of the USA Today paper.

514
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: Was it her custom to do the crossword in the mornings?

515
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: Were coffee cup coffee cups sitting out on the kitchen table.

516
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: Was there a pot of coffee still in the coffee maker?

517
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: Was there anything in the crock pot where their dishes

518
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: out from lunch or did it look more like dinner.

519
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: We know that they didn't show up for the Kentucky

520
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: Derby party, so that gives us the clue as to

521
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: the end.

522
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: They were dead by that time. What else would you

523
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: look for?

524
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 6: Joe Scott well Sheriff Sales, has done the right thing

525
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 6: by going to speak with the family, something we do

526
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 6: in investigations to just try to get a take a

527
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 6: temperature of what their daily routine looks like, and you

528
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 6: have to try to understand that and are there any

529
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 6: moments in tom that deviate from that normal all those

530
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 6: normal behaviors moving forward. I think that also one of

531
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 6: the things. And if we believe that there may have

532
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 6: been more than one individual involved in this, I think

533
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 6: that it would be very important to try to examine

534
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 6: any kind of available digital evidence that might be available

535
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 6: from back during that time period, as far as phone records,

536
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 6: anything that came off of any of the towers back then.

537
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 6: I don't know if that's necessarily possible, but it's certainly

538
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 6: something that's intriguing. If you've got one person in the yard,

539
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 6: perhaps are they communicating with someone else that could facilitate

540
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 6: bringing a boat around, Because that's that's the rub, isn't it.

541
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 6: You know, how do you get a boat into a

542
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 6: location where you're running the risk in broad daylight of

543
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 6: people being seen at their dock or their mooring location there?

544
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: How does this work?

545
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 6: So there has to be communication involved in this. I

546
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 6: think that's that's certainly something to look at.

547
00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 2: And of course, you know the Agel question dot miss

548
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: on dilatory. You really think too or more people could

549
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: keep this quiet. No way they had to tell a girlfriend,

550
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: a wife, a co conspirator.

551
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: There was a reason for this murder. Somebody has to

552
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: know why, and that leads you to who.

553
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 7: Again, it leads me to someone that felt offended by

554
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 7: whatever Russell Dermot was doing, whatever it was that he

555
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 7: was involved in. Now, this could have been an ex employee,

556
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 7: this could have been this could have been anybody.

557
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: But when you say involved in, wait a minute, that

558
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: makes it sounds like it's a victim's fault. How do

559
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 2: I know it wasn't somebody that broke in and he

560
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,479
Speaker 2: wouldn't give up the pen number to his checking account

561
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: or his saving his account. I mean, we did that

562
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: cause someone to go into a fury, But would they

563
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: go through the effort of driving up in a boat

564
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: and decapitating him over a pin number?

565
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 6: No, No, absolutely not.

566
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 7: This is why I'm saying that this is about something

567
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 7: that was going on within the individual that was specifically

568
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 7: targeting Russell Dermott or else a. None of this other

569
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 7: stuff would need to have happened. I mean that these

570
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 7: two individuals are killed in very disparate ways, and they're

571
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 7: dumped in very disparate ways, But I think it's purposeful.

572
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 7: This was planned from the beginning that this was how

573
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 7: things were going to play out, and everything is probably

574
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 7: geared towards Russell Derman being sort of the ultimate target

575
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 7: of whatever this thing was, given the nature of how

576
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 7: his wife was beaten to death and how he necessarily

577
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 7: wasn't in.

578
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: The last days a break in the case.

579
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 3: Listen, the case of the double homicide of a beloved

580
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 3: couple in a gated community on Lake of Coony goes

581
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 3: cold for nearly ten years until Sheriff Howard Siles announces

582
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 3: a break in the case. DNA is recovered from Russell

583
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 3: Durman's shirt and is sent to a private lab for examination.

584
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 3: The private lab confirms the DNA does not belong to

585
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 3: Russell or Shirley Durman. Pubman County Sheriff Howard Siles says

586
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 3: he believes the DNA is from the person who committed

587
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 3: the murder, or at least somebody who is a party

588
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 3: to the crime.

589
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, the double.

590
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 3: Homicide of Russell and Shirley Dermot rocks their gaty community.

591
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 3: Huddnam County Sheriff Howard Sills says, based on the evidence,

592
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 3: Russell Drman was murdered elsewhere, but was beheaded in the

593
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: garage where his body was found. The shriff says the

594
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 3: injuries Shirley Drman sustained would have left physical evidence that

595
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 3: was not found in the Drman's.

596
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 2: Home, nor evidence at the beheading of Russell Dermott occurred

597
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: there in the home as well. Where were they killed?

598
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: What was the purpose of bringing their bodies back to

599
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: that gated community home right on the waterfront of Lake Oconey.

600
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 2: We are now hearing about new DNA straight out to

601
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 2: the sheriff. Sheriff Howard Sills, where did you discover where

602
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 2: was the new DNA.

603
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 4: We initially took all of our physical evidence out to Authoram.

604
00:34:54,320 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 4: Authorham did locate and did identified DNA. Further work that

605
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 4: needed to be done, and they have referred me to

606
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 4: Sarrensen Labs in out in Utah and they have found

607
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 4: DNA that they are still working on trying to isolate that.

608
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 4: We at least know both Author and Sarnson found DNA

609
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 4: that does not belong to Shirley or Russell. Drman and

610
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 4: Sarnston is still doing whatever they're doing there, trying to

611
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 4: narrow that down enough where we can get it into CODIS.

612
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,919
Speaker 4: So I reached out to them. Initially, the State Lab

613
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 4: said there was no DNA. I'm not being critical of them.

614
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 4: I don't know the technology at the time other than

615
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 4: the Dermots themselves. But after learning of the good work

616
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 4: of Authorm and Sarrens and consulting with the FBI, that's

617
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 4: where I decided to take stuff. So we're optimistic that

618
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 4: that's going to eventually turn up something here, hopefully pretty soon.

619
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 2: Doctor Christen Millman, joining US chief development officer at AUTHRAM,

620
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 2: tell me about the discovery of the new Well, it's

621
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 2: not really new DNA. It's newly discovered DNA. Where was

622
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: it and how did you find it?

623
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 8: It was on the clothing and I guess how we

624
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 8: found it is The sheriff sent the evidence here to

625
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 8: see if there was any unknown contributor profile that could

626
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 8: be detected that wasn't previously detected. Once that was detected

627
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 8: at our lab, we had to follow the interim policy

628
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 8: for this type of technology, and that means that any

629
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 8: DNA that is found needs to be uploaded to COTIS

630
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 8: first and see if there is a hit and CODIS

631
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 8: or a match in CODIS. Once there's not a hitt

632
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 8: and CODIS, then we can proceed and build a profile.

633
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 8: If there is a hitting CODIS, obviously the case can

634
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 8: be solved that way. A lot of the times there isn't.

635
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 8: If there isn't, then we can proceed and build a

636
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 8: profile that has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of markers

637
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 8: rather than twenty, and upload that to genealogical databases consented

638
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 8: for law enforcement use, allowing us to infer the identity

639
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,720
Speaker 8: of the perpetrator. And so Sorensen is a traditional forensic

640
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 8: lab that can build these CODIS profiles quickly and get

641
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 8: them uploaded. That is what's happening now, and if there

642
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 8: is a hit, that case can be solved that way.

643
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 8: If there is no hit, then we can take over

644
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 8: the DNA sample and build one of these genealogical profiles

645
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 8: that will help us infer the identity of the person

646
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 8: that left DNA at the crime scene. We can't say

647
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 8: it's the perpetrator, but we can say someone that left

648
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 8: DNA on their body at the crime scene during that

649
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 8: time period.

650
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 2: The clothes they were wearing at the time they were murdered. Okay,

651
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 2: question Dodger Crystal middleman joining us Dodger Middleman when I say,

652
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 2: how do you find the DNA on the clothing? Specifically?

653
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: What do you put it under a microscope? Do you

654
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: treat it in some way? How do you see what

655
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: other scientists could not see?

656
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 8: Well, DNA techniques should be much the same and standardized,

657
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 8: but maybe we took a section of that clothing that

658
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 8: was different than sections that had been tested in the past.

659
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 8: How forensic testing works is you section different areas of

660
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 8: a bedsheet, clothing, anything that might have been found at

661
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 8: the crime scene, and then you extract DNA from all

662
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 8: of those cuttings and sometimes you're lucky and you actually

663
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 8: find a profile that doesn't belong to either one of

664
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 8: the victims, and that is what the sheriff is alluding

665
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 8: to in this case.

666
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 2: Doctor Mintlman, it's amazing to me the work that you

667
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 2: do at Authram. You've actually found something that other scientists

668
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 2: at the time couldn't see, and it may hold the

669
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 2: key to not just a double murder, but the double

670
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: murder of beloved grandparents, a beheading. And I look at

671
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 2: missus Derman to imagine someone tying her body to a

672
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: cement chunk and throwing her into that cold, dark water.

673
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: These perps have got to be found and your work

674
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 2: may make that happen. If you know, or you even

675
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 2: think you know anything about the brutal murders of the Dermans,

676
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: please call seven zero six four eight five eight five

677
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: five seven seven zero six four eight five eight five

678
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: five seven. Now we've got up that there is a

679
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 2: twenty five thousand dollars reward, but there is also a

680
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 2: commitment for Metropolitan Life Insurance for thirty grand Let's hope

681
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: we can use it total of fifty five thousand dollars

682
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: and promised reward for the discovery of information leading to

683
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 2: the resolution of this double murder. We stop now and

684
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 2: remember American hero police Officer Garrett Crumby, Huntsville, Alabama. Just

685
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: thirty six. Officer Crumby shot and killed in the line

686
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 2: of duty. Survived by grieving wife Taylor, loving parents William

687
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 2: and Janet, two dogs and two cats, four furry children.

688
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: American hero police Officer Garrett Crumby. Thank you to our

689
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 2: guests for being with us, especially to doctor Kristen Middleman

690
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: from off Raum Labs, and of course to Sheriff Howard Stills,

691
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: still on the case there in Putnam County.

692
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,