WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 42 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.520 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.199 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:09.400 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.280 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:19.959 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:29.720 can make your own decisions. Take it away. Robert Evans, gosh, 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:37.560 it could happen here. I did it brilliant. Thank you. Yeah, 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.280 I love I love that really, thank you. You're Robert Evans. 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:43.559 We also have Christopher Long, Garrison Davis, and we have 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.279 Andrew here with us. We'll be leading this episode. Hi Andrew, Hello, 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:54.440 Hello everyone. Hell is the with in Portland? It is cold. 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.120 Everywhere else in the continentally United States, it is a 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:02.280 boiling hell storm. Actually today today, today it's only eighty four. 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.640 But yeah, we we have three days where it's merely 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:07.479 in the eighties and then it goes back to being 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:15.080 like again. It's very very excited your temperature measurements. But angeles, 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:18.120 it's lovely today. We're lovely for the next couple of 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:24.760 days and then we'll be burning sixty six. It's gonna 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.480 be perfect here forever. Climate change is over in Northern Oregon. 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:31.160 I have declared it, Well have you declared it? It 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:37.040 must be true exactly. So today, once I have a 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:44.360 bit of a discussion, an open discussion about my favorite 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:50.880 kind of discourse, and that is dead discourse. I wanted 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:55.200 to talk about discussion code that people have been having 0:01:55.480 --> 0:02:00.000 a couple of weeks ago about restaurants, a restaurant discourse, 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:04.280 this whole idea that people heard about five minutes ago 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.240 and got super rare lap over and sparked to a 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:11.080 bunch of like drama, because that's what social media and centervizes. 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.200 But I figured, you know, we could have a nice 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:19.440 roundtable discussionaire about code and code restaurant abolition, and show 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:21.680 our thoughts on the ideas presented in the zine that 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.120 inspired it for those those who read it, Abolish Restaurants 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.760 by prola in Food. But first of all, I wanted 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:32.919 to share it about my experience in the food industry. 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.440 It was quite brief, and by brief, I mean like 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:43.280 four days I started working at this this winery slash 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:48.320 cafe that was UM owned and run by this trust 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:53.359 fund baby, and it was very clear that she had 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.880 failed up for most of her life. Um. It was 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.760 very disorganized and very stressful experience. I quit like a 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:04.040 few days after I got it because instead of you know, 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:08.960 making coffees and preparing wines and stuff, I got a 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:13.360 job pushing paper in an office, which is only marginally better. 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:15.640 And I mean everyone want to speak over like food 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.400 to his people or anything, because like my experience is 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.919 very limited, but in my own limited experience, it sucked. 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.280 I mean my blood too into water trying to keep 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:26.840 up with everything. It was one of those kind of 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.240 under the table jobs, so you don't have a contract 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.440 or a specific job description. It's just like you're doing everything. 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.240 So you're sorting and taking off recycling, and you're organized 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:38.520 and stock, you're making coffee, busing tables and cashion products. 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:42.200 You're handling accounting for some reason, like lady, I just 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:45.760 got here, but I'm already doing accounting, um, and so 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:49.840 on and so forth. I didn't have an official break either, 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.680 and I wasn't allowed to sit at all. Um. I 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:55.440 mean my boss said that I could stop for lunch 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:59.720 what I needed to, But because of this, these constant responsibility. 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.960 Shue was piling onto me. We never got a chance 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:05.600 to take a breath. The one time I did take 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:09.160 a lunch break, she rushed me out to lunch break 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:15.240 because I was taken too long and she was busy 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.440 taking care of her other real estate. I only consistent 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.520 customers with her friends. And yet somehow, you know, she 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:28.040 kept the doors opening, the lights on because you know, 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:33.960 trust fund baby. But yeah, to reiterate, it was a 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:39.040 very sucky experience I had. Any Yeah, I worked at 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.640 a restaurant for starting when I was in high school, 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:45.640 I was fifteen and a half for three or four 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:49.640 years part of college, the baby learn a lot about 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:56.200 how awful people are. But it was like you did 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.080 learn how to work in a team and things like that. 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:07.440 Helpful goals there, But management was terrible. Ah, not exactly 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:16.520 easy work, not exactly fun work. Um. Yeah, it was like, 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:20.320 I honestly feel like a lot of people should have 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:22.160 to do some type of job like that so that 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.000 they learn, you know, how how to treat people who 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:29.039 work in that in that kind of position. Um, because 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:34.279 mostly my memories of it is terrible, horrible customers who 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:38.360 just treated people like scum. Yeah, but I needed the job, 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:43.400 so yeah, yeah, my only experience in food service was 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.520 working at a sonic not for a crazy long time, 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:48.960 but it was terrible, um, and it left me with 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.920 an abiding like respect for people who have to do that. 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.960 And I you know, we can talk, we'll talk more 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.240 about the restaurant thing, but I certainly don't think fast 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.279 food restaurant or a thing that exists in my ideal future, 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.599 because I don't know how you could possibly operate those 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:09.880 without a tremendous amount of human suffering and wasted potential, 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.960 because they're just they're bad things. Now that said, any 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:17.320 utopian society will have a way to acquire Popeyes, but 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.920 perhaps not at like midnight in every city of the 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:24.000 country whenever you wanted. My utopian society is a wool 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.280 in which KFC has been abolished and everything else to 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:32.120 like exist. Yes, yes, well again this is it could 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:40.120 happen here sponsored by I'm perfectly okay with imperialism, but like, yeah, 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:43.960 and what kind of like can I ask, like, what 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.480 kind of restaurant I know? Robert said his was fast food, 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:48.880 Mine was very like casual food. What what kind of 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.919 restaurant did you work at? Right? It wasn't. It was 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:56.480 like a winery slash caffee and it also served food. 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:00.240 It was like a touch to a hotel. Oh yeah, 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.320 and the whole the hotel part of it probably made 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:12.720 it appearance. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, Yeah, kurs, scare either 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:14.840 of you rather work in the food fruit food service 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.360 industry at all? Yeah. I worked at a bakery for 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:21.280 like a year and a half, mostly back of the house. Um. 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.640 But I mean I would you know, would end up 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.760 washing washing dishes and taking out recycling and all that 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.000 kind of stuff. But most of my work was designing 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:33.679 recipes because I was more on like the food science angle. 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.080 I don't know, Yeah, I mean it's I have a 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:41.440 complicated uh feelings on like cafes specifically. I mean I 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.600 I love anarchist cafes and like the idea of anarchist cafe. 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:46.480 I would love to love to like have one at 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:50.280 some point. It's like operated by the workers quote quote 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:54.160 owned by the workers, um, with a shooting range out back. 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.480 But obviously the guns and buns. We call it guns 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.400 and buns. You can the croissan and you can shoot 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:13.520 fard by cafe by all me inside your right. Guns 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.880 and buns is a breakfast cafe, gun range, strip club 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.600 and apparently as long as as long as you fund it, 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.720 you can have whatever you want. But the people will 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:27.640 funded Garrison. Obviously, the food service industry has just make 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:36.040 it a cooperative that makes everything. Sorry, please continue. Yeah, 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.080 like the food service industry has a lot of problems. 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.240 But if if I were if I were able to 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:42.600 go into a bakery like maybe like two or three 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.560 times a week to just bake food for people and 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.120 that helps me live the rest of the week, I 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.599 would totally do that, right, So, like it depends on 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:54.320 a lot of factors, but it's like there's ideas around, 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:56.439 like an anarchist cafe, work around cafe that would be 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:58.760 like totally chilled to work to like be there a 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.200 few days of the week making food because I enjoy 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.800 making food, I enjoy baking, and I like food science. Um. 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:06.480 But you know, when you would start we start tying 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.320 that into labor and exploited the labor practices and the 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.200 notion of like having to serve other people, then it 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:14.720 gets a little bit more tricky. Um, and you know, 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.640 less less less good, less cash money in a sign, 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.320 Yeah exactly, you know it was was was kind of 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:24.600 funny about it. Um I would say it is like 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:32.560 kind of lost guada. Let me just think for a second. Well, so, 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.480 I mean one of the things that I have noticed 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.480 over the years, because I've had a lot of friends 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:42.360 work as bartenders, as waiters and waitresses, there are there's 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:44.240 a chunk of people who really like the work. They 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.720 usually don't like their employer, they often have issues with 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.040 like their manager or whatever, but like they like their 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.559 co workers and they enjoy the the act of like 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.920 doing restaurants stuff. Um I and I know that. Like, 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.000 so one of the things that I did recreationally for years, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:01.199 as I was going to I would go to these 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.080 regional burning Man events and one of the rules there's 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:06.240 like everyone pays the same thing to get in. There's 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.360 no like get there's no like talent, so there's nobody 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:11.920 who's like paid to be there as an act, and 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:15.320 there's no like exchange of currency lab But there are restaurants. 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.520 There are people who like bake food and and and 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:19.360 give out and like make and give out coffee. There's 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:21.959 there's multiple bars and a number of the people I 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:24.160 knew who were like the most who would spend the 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:26.400 most of their time which is again totally their own. 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:30.080 At these events volunteering as bartenders were people who worked 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:32.560 as bartenders, and we're like, look, I like serving drinks. 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:34.720 I hate a lot of what goes along with being 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.240 in a bar, but I enjoy making and serving drinks. 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:39.839 There was this one really cool dude out in the 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.520 middle of he was out because it's a spread out 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:44.880 over acres of woodlands. There's just this guy I found 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.320 one night alone in the woods at like a podium sized, 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.360 little booth lit up bar he'd made, and he was like, look, 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:53.680 I am a very good bartender. What I do not 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.000 like is making the same things every night for drunk 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.000 people who don't know anything about a good mixed drink. 0:10:58.360 --> 0:10:59.720 So you and I are gonna have like a five 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.040 minute conversation and then I'm gonna tell you what I'm 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:06.800 gonna make you. Yeah. Yeah, it was really cool like that. 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.120 More stuff like that, more like restaurant pop ups that 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:12.600 are like those types of things are are just are 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:16.200 divorced from like this notion of like, you know, being 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.480 served by a lower class member of society. Instead it's 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.240 people like sharing actual interests that they have and they're 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:23.320 not obligated to be there or else they get you know, 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:25.679 or else they're not able to pay their rent. Right, 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.920 there's lots of things like a utopian society or be like, yeah, 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:32.319 I would totally be down with doing some some kind 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.800 of you know, some kind of thing related to giving 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:37.120 food to other people are preparing food or you know, 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:41.800 drink like mixed strengths. Uh. I like making coffee a 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.280 lot like espressove and the ship. Um it's like I 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.719 can totally see that, but right now, you know, it's 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:52.480 just a totally different field. Um, by and large for 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.839 most people in you know, the food service industry, and 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.240 it sucks work. By and large, it really sucks to 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.000 work in the foods service industry. Yeah, the food service 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.200 industry is one of the most explicitve industries in the country. 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.320 That said, the idea of gathering in public to consume 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.920 food and beverages is fundamental to human beings and we're 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.800 never not going to have that as society's so there 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.480 has to be ways in which to have versions of that. 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.199 And again, probably not the every ten minutes you get 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.559 the same three fast food restaurants that are open all night. 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:27.640 That probably that definitely does not exist in an ideal society, 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:31.439 but in any any better society, human beings will gather 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.160 to eat and drink around each other because it's something 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.640 we've done in every civilization that has ever existed. So, 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:39.440 Andrew do you do? Do you want to talk a 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.240 bit more about the actual zine, because I feel like 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.080 a lot of people's course around the zine is not 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.360 about the zine itself. It's about what the title of 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:50.600 the zene is, because people should read the actual zene. 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.800 If you read it makes very reasonable arguments. Um. The 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:58.920 titles just intentionally provocative. Um. Yeah. And what I've realized 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:04.880 about intentionally provocative slogans is that the people who who 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:06.840 want to get it, you know, they tend to be 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:08.720 drawn into those kinds of things. And then there's some 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.400 people who see something provocative and it kind of shuts 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.199 them down. Yes, some people see it, see something so 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.240 provocative and see it's like I want to learn more. 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:17.800 And other people see it and they have that kind 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:19.719 of a gut reaction to It's like it's like the 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:24.880 backfire affect type thing. Yeah. So I mean to get 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.360 into the kind of the history of it and just 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:33.760 the idea of restaurants as as the Zene Explorers. According 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.680 to the discourse, a restaurant is just a place to eat. 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.680 If you sit down in the middle of a desert 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.000 with a table and a chair and you eat something 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.079 that's apparently a restaurant, that's not a restaurant. That it's 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:49.319 not a restaurant. But okay, the definition of a restaurant 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:54.040 is a place where people pay to sit and eat 0:13:54.120 --> 0:14:00.600 meals that are cooked and served on the premises. Commerce 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:04.320 is a part of the definition of a restaurant. Why 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:09.640 do we universalize and naturalize things that are neither That 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.600 is my question. It's like what people do with the state, 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.640 or with capitalism, with police or agender. I mean, just 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:19.000 like those things. The restaurant is an invention, but it's 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:24.080 been crystallized and induced into our mind as something that 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:28.080 is you know, that is natural, it is universal. You 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:32.120 know when when Kronk brought his buddy Brock a piece 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.000 of chicken, that was a restaurant. You know, it's like, 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:37.720 we take we take these things that come from very 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:41.840 specific modern capitalist context and we stretch them out over 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:46.800 the entire human experience. If you look into the history restaurants, 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:49.600 the first restaurants began to appear in Paris in the 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:54.280 seventeen sixties, un as leaders in the eighteen fifties. Majority 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.760 the restaurants that will be located in Paris, and I mean, 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:00.200 for those who know a little bit about his three, 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.200 Paris is kind of an interesting place where a lot 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:08.720 of things happen, especially during that rough time period, a 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.200 lot of stuff going on there exactly, I mean elsewhere 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:15.120 on the world, communal meals were quite common. People cooked 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.440 community and the eight community, and they were new restaurants, 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:24.840 specifically before the invention of restaurants, and in Paris around 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:28.080 Europe at least where people had servants who cooked for them. 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:30.880 Travelers had ins where their meal was included with the 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:32.760 price of the room and they ate for the innkeeper 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.960 and his family, and peasants they ate their meals at home, 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:38.880 and of course they were also caterers free events and 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:43.200 special occasions. And there were taverns and wineries and coffees 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:47.440 and bakeries for certain foods and drinks. Of course, later 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.400 on all of those things, the taverns, the wineries, the 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:54.360 cake the caffes, and the bakeries. After restaurants came about, 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.760 those other institutions to shape and bend into this sort 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:03.480 of the mold of the restaurants was established. Restaurant based 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:08.920 on the name of it. Um comes from this this 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:11.800 idea that they were meant to restore health to sick people. 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:16.080 Restaurant restaurant, all right, and they used to sue these 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.360 small meat stews. So by by that, by that metric, 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:25.480 Taco Bell cannot be a restaurant. I I would argue 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.560 that it is the only restaurant. It's, well, it's going 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:31.720 to restore bowel movement if you have any kind of 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:35.840 blockage that that that it will restore that. But besides that, 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:37.720 I cannot, I can do not think it's going to 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:41.080 restore Yeah, Taco Bell, It's probably something like a laxatant. 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:48.320 I don't know. But yeah, So why France, Why Paris? 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:53.680 Why restaurants? It kind of occurred after the food craft 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.880 kills were abolished by the Revolution. It was like this 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:00.160 attempt to kind of democratize the food industry. You know, 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:06.080 Liberty got a home all that jazz, so restaurants and 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.119 it began spree enough because all these former cooks of 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.760 the now be headed king and aristocrats, they wanted to 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:15.800 work somewhere. Sure, so you know, in a restaurant, if 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:17.800 you get a meal at any time the businesses open, 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.600 anyone with money could get a meal. The customers would 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.800 come and they would eat an individual tables, eat individual 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.760 plates and bowls of food. They get to choose from 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.040 another option, a number of options, and they grew in 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:32.240 size and complexity as they went on. They got a 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:40.440 fixed menu and eventually all day. We invented the bacon eator. Yes, yeah, 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.200 that's the end fact. The Bacon was the first book 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:50.200 I had when I went to the US. I would apologize, 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.000 but this country has done so much worse than that 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:58.359 of fun facts about Andrew. Yeah, you know, it's a 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:00.280 thing to tune in and you get a litt new 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.719 fact that you could. I don't know adds my Wikia 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:10.639 page or something, but yeah, yeah, it was. It was. 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.639 It was mid. Honestly, my brother makes better bogas. But 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:19.399 that's besides the plane. Yeah, nearly every burger that you 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:24.119 can get at a fast food restaurant is is mid. Yeah, 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:31.560 t g I Friday's had some good Friday. That is 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.879 the place when you're in a town you've never been before, 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:36.160 that's where you want to just show up and get 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:39.679 absolutely ship house drunk until two am with like a 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.000 bunch of strangers at the t g I Friday's Bar, 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.560 which is the boulevard of broken dreams, Like it's only 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.280 people who can't hack it in a regular bar and 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.080 weirdos traveling through town. I love a t g I 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:59.520 A Friday's Bark. I was not aware of that sertiod type. 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:01.639 I mean there's aid t g I here in Trinidad 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:05.639 and me last time I knew they had like some 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:12.000 kind of karaoke thing going on. Yeah, it's probably the vibe. 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.359 I haven't been too many times anyway, I think this 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:21.240 is enough product place month for for one episode, like 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:28.959 out a lot of different here's ads. Sure, why not? 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:34.560 So the growth of the restaurant came the growth of 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:36.879 the market. With the growth of the restaurant came the 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:40.679 growth of the market. Needs that will you know fulfilled 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:44.520 either through a direct relationship with domination like between a 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.800 lord or a king and his silvants, or a private 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.119 relationship like within the family. They were all being fulfilled 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:55.320 on the open market. It was once a direct oppressive relationship, 0:19:55.840 --> 0:20:00.399 now became the relationship between buyer and seller now came in. 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:08.800 Didn't direct oppressive exactly, a diffused oppressive relationship foremost because 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.040 no one person, I would say it could really carry 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:14.440 the blame. A similar expansion the market took place over 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.400 a century later with the rise of fast food because 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.280 as the nineteen fifties housewife was on her way out, 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:23.200 you know, being undermined, and as you women started to 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.240 move into the open labor market, many of the tasks 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.400 that were done by women traditionally were being transferred onto 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:31.840 the market. Not to say that women still don't do 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:36.040 the majority of care work in modern society, but as 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:41.840 women started moving into the office into the workplace, things 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:46.600 started to shift with regard to eating and eating patterns. 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:49.959 An important point to notice that, of course, you know, 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:54.520 the whole woman moving into the workplace thing is kind 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:58.600 of a white woman phenomenon, because you know, people of color, 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:03.320 women of color were inward places before then in large numbers. Yeah, 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:04.919 And and there's there's a thing I think it's important 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:07.479 to note here too, which is like part part of 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:11.600 what's happening here, is that like some of the care 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:13.960 labor that white women were doing gets transferred on to 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:15.720 non white women. And this this is this has been 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:17.920 one of the things that, Like, I think we talked 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:19.560 about this a long time ago in an interview I 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.840 did with it with a nurse. But like, like, for example, 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:24.800 you see this with healthcare a lot where like a 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:26.879 lot of like union workers get these goods, you know, 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:28.720 they get really good healthcare plans from the unions, but 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.840 those healthcare plans are basically subsidized by not paying women 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:35.280 of color like ship. And there's this whole sort of 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:39.480 like trend around this is sort of like like you can, 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:41.960 you know, if if you're witching, if you're rich enough, 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:46.080 you can escape housework. But you escape housework by essentially 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:48.760 thrusting it on somewhere, on someone else who's like further 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:51.679 down the social ladder venue. Yeah, it's kind of like 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:54.320 a form of that um that phenomenon. People have been 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.240 talking about the the idea of choice feminism, as in 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:00.399 any choice that woman to sneak that a woman makes 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:04.400 part of the feminist sort of movement. So I saw 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:09.320 some discourse happened recently. People are talking about, um, how 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:14.040 oh one should have a right if she's a housewife, 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:16.000 that she should still be able to you know, pursue 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:19.440 her interests, which is of course agreed and the solution 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:24.840 being proposed, so that was that the man, the breadwinner, 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:29.840 would pay for a domestic servants to come and work 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:33.800 for the woman so that she can pursue her other responsibilities, 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:36.600 her other interests and desires. And so it's just kind 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:41.920 of this perfect what a close to license exactly because 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:44.800 then this woman is working away from her family, and 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:48.840 then you know, it's just like this is a the 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:56.440 messed up system. But yes, so as fast food restaurants 0:22:56.480 --> 0:23:00.359 began to grow rapidly, people began being paid weed is 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:04.400 for what used to be hostwork. And of course, as 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:08.639 we know, capitalism could not exist without the billions of 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:12.960 dollars of unpaid labor that women perform on a yearly basis. 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:21.960 Modern restaurants emerged in the nineteenth century under specific conditions. 0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:27.240 They had to be businessmen with capital to invest in restaurants. 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:30.640 They had to be customers who are expected to satisfy 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:32.959 their need for food in the open market by buying it. 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:35.919 And they had to be workers with no way to 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:40.080 live but by working for someone else. As these conditions developed, 0:23:40.119 --> 0:23:45.840 as capitalism developed, sorted restaurants and so at the root 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:49.520 of this whole abolished restaurants discourse needs to be an 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:53.879 understanding of where restaurants came from their historical development. You 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:58.320 cannot take them in isolation and project them, like I said, 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:02.040 across all of humanity, because it's only through understanding, through 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:05.879 its specific circumstances that we can transform it as we 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:09.399 transform society as a whole. As we were saying, you know, 0:24:09.480 --> 0:24:13.600 there's a lot of things that are hell about restaurants. 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:17.280 The way that work comes in like waves and rushes, 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:20.240 a lot of slow time in between. We either really 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:23.440 stressed out, the really bored. Remember working they had the 0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:26.520 winery and like for mostly day, I just have to 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:32.159 be like shifting around bottles on the shelves. I couldn't 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:34.160 sit down and chill or be on my phone or anything. 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:38.280 I just had to busy myself until a customer came. 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:40.439 I guess it was never came because it was a 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:44.520 failed business propped up only by her parents money. But 0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:47.320 did you ever get told the phrase if you can lean, 0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:53.840 you can clean, not in not in those exactly words, Yes, 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:59.040 in those exact words, God, and every fucking manager who 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:02.120 says it to you think that like it's their cool 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:10.840 line was anyway? Yep? Yeah, So you have to just 0:25:11.000 --> 0:25:13.080 you have this this constant thing of trying to look 0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:16.280 busy while having got nothing to do, while you're trying 0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:19.360 not to fall behind because they have tendings to do. Yeah, 0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:22.240 everyone's always working harder and faster, and of course the 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:25.480 boss wants to squeeze as much workout in the same 0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:30.159 number of people out as possible, you know, like you 0:25:30.280 --> 0:25:33.159 pushing people to these ridiculous extremes, which is why it's 0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:36.360 a kind of stereotype now of like restaurant workers all 0:25:36.400 --> 0:25:42.439 being on drugs. You know, there's also this whole in 0:25:42.560 --> 0:25:48.480 humanity to like employees being paid in tips. Now, as 0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:51.560 far as I know nowhere is that as severe as 0:25:51.600 --> 0:25:55.680 it is in the US um. But of course around 0:25:55.680 --> 0:26:00.399 the world there are tipping cultures of varying degrees. And 0:26:00.440 --> 0:26:04.200 so when you have that sort of work where you 0:26:05.320 --> 0:26:08.119 sure you're living your subsistence is so directly tied to 0:26:08.240 --> 0:26:13.280 like tips, Not only do you have this sort of 0:26:13.280 --> 0:26:15.800 divide being created between the workers between like, for example, 0:26:15.920 --> 0:26:20.080 the waiters who make the tips and the cooks who 0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:22.800 don't make any tips, And it's just the sort of 0:26:22.840 --> 0:26:25.800 had to compete against each other because the way it's 0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:28.199 trying to get as much done as possible so they 0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:29.879 can make their tips quickly so they could have their 0:26:29.920 --> 0:26:32.320 you know, quick service. Where as the cooks they have 0:26:32.359 --> 0:26:37.680 no interesting motivation to push themselves harder and just becomes stressful. 0:26:38.160 --> 0:26:40.359 I never got tips from baking in the back of 0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:42.119 the house unless some of the people in front of 0:26:42.119 --> 0:26:44.560 the house would like share the tips at the end 0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:47.399 of the day by their own like. Yeah, and I 0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:50.720 know folks who worked in places where all tips were 0:26:50.760 --> 0:26:52.960 shared with the way the kitchen staff, and it seemed 0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:55.520 to be a fifty fifty breakdown of this is really 0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:59.040 good and everyone gets paid fairly, and this is actually 0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:01.400 some scam by man management to deny people a bunch 0:27:01.440 --> 0:27:03.960 of tips by like pulling them and a certain factory 0:27:04.000 --> 0:27:08.000 that gets done so like It's like any formulation of 0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:12.879 this inherently winds up being pretty abusive. Yeah, and dividing 0:27:13.359 --> 0:27:19.640 you know another interesting and I mean, as you guys 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:22.800 mentioned stressful components about you know, this line of workers. 0:27:22.840 --> 0:27:28.520 Of course, the customers, which customer service for in general, 0:27:28.680 --> 0:27:31.200 tend to you know, whether you're working at a bar 0:27:31.600 --> 0:27:34.840 or you're working at a you know, a restaurant, even 0:27:34.880 --> 0:27:38.240 working in like sales and some sort of like retail. 0:27:38.920 --> 0:27:43.399 Still their whole subread is dedicated to how terrible customers 0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:46.760 are two workers, and so that that's sort of dynamic 0:27:46.960 --> 0:27:54.280 of service. It it really changes people. I mean, customers 0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:56.840 can just as easily be working class as the people 0:27:56.960 --> 0:28:03.440 working in the restaurant. It there's still that dynamic that's 0:28:03.480 --> 0:28:06.600 created when you are the one being seated and soothed 0:28:06.680 --> 0:28:10.360 on the other police and on their feet soothing you. 0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:14.680 Some of the worst customers in America at least are 0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:19.800 working class and poorer folks who it's like their chance 0:28:19.960 --> 0:28:24.119 to be above somebody like when they go out to 0:28:24.160 --> 0:28:27.320 a restaurant, so they can be extra shitty. Yeah, that 0:28:27.680 --> 0:28:30.880 is a thing that happens. Surprisingly that even like restaurant 0:28:30.880 --> 0:28:33.560 weekers who treat restaurant workers batly when they go to 0:28:33.600 --> 0:28:37.439 a restaurant. Yeah, yeah, yes, it's like someone gets the 0:28:37.480 --> 0:28:41.280 opportunity to be to exert the power and they're like 0:28:42.080 --> 0:28:44.160 do it in the short, short, short, short amount of time. 0:28:44.240 --> 0:28:46.720 But although I will say I'm sure those are also 0:28:46.800 --> 0:28:49.640 the restaurant workers who treat people badly at the restaurant 0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:53.840 they work at, including like some of the some of 0:28:53.880 --> 0:28:56.720 the things that have ever been said to beered by 0:28:56.800 --> 0:29:02.200 customers at the restaurant job. I had, yeah, not surprising, 0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:06.520 and I was like no, I was like I was 0:29:06.560 --> 0:29:08.840 like in high school, I was a kid and these 0:29:08.840 --> 0:29:14.960 are like grown ups being horreendous. So like I think, 0:29:15.000 --> 0:29:16.920 I think it's like I don't know, like when people 0:29:17.120 --> 0:29:20.520 talk about this, like when people talk about restaurants, like 0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:23.040 in the discourses, it's it's in a way that's like 0:29:23.120 --> 0:29:27.240 it's incredibly abstract and doesn't like it don't it doesn't 0:29:28.000 --> 0:29:31.720 think about the fact that like the relationship between the 0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:35.840 customer and the people who have to interact with the customers, host, etcetera, 0:29:35.880 --> 0:29:37.600 like that that is a social relation. It's a social 0:29:37.600 --> 0:29:41.440 relation that like that, like like the the power dynamic 0:29:41.480 --> 0:29:46.600 inherent to it abscribes sort of different kind It describes 0:29:46.600 --> 0:29:48.440 different kinds of behavior to the people who are like 0:29:48.520 --> 0:29:50.320 who are like on either side of it, like it 0:29:50.800 --> 0:29:54.080 it controls like what you have to do as a server, 0:29:54.240 --> 0:29:56.200 like what the performances you have to give to like 0:29:56.200 --> 0:29:57.960 the smile you have to put on, which is actually 0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:00.600 like that's the original thing of what emotional he is, right, 0:30:00.680 --> 0:30:02.200 is like the labor you have to do to make 0:30:02.240 --> 0:30:04.880 the person who you're serving, like I think that you're 0:30:04.920 --> 0:30:07.560 like happy and enjoying it, like having a good time. 0:30:07.600 --> 0:30:09.680 But then you know on the customer's en too, it's 0:30:09.720 --> 0:30:11.800 like you get this sort of you know, I was like, oh, 0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:13.680 this is your one chance to to be on top 0:30:13.720 --> 0:30:16.200 of a sort of power relation and like that like 0:30:16.360 --> 0:30:20.760 that like that specific thing is so fucking evil. It's 0:30:20.800 --> 0:30:22.440 like that there there, there's there's a story I think 0:30:22.480 --> 0:30:25.640 about a lot from Run and Schwang. Originally was it 0:30:25.640 --> 0:30:29.000 was about um like one one of the last emperors 0:30:29.000 --> 0:30:32.400 of the Tang dynasty, like his his concubine like loved 0:30:32.480 --> 0:30:34.520 legia and like, okay, I get it as lesia that 0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:37.680 gets really good, but like leeches grown leaches only grown 0:30:37.720 --> 0:30:39.040 in this in the south of China. You can't really 0:30:39.040 --> 0:30:41.240 grow in the north. It doesn't like it's too cold, 0:30:41.320 --> 0:30:43.840 too arid. And so in order to get her leash, 0:30:44.040 --> 0:30:46.440 like every morning, they would send like the fastest writers 0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:49.640 like in China would like be sent by horse like 0:30:49.720 --> 0:30:52.320 to southern China and then back so that you get 0:30:52.360 --> 0:30:54.920 the lechia there in time like for for it still 0:30:54.960 --> 0:30:58.080 to be like ripe and like edible, and you know 0:30:58.120 --> 0:30:59.600 that that's the kind of that's the kind of power 0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:02.800 that you to only literally the Emperor of China had 0:31:02.840 --> 0:31:05.280 this ability, right, like the like the Emperor of fucking 0:31:05.360 --> 0:31:08.760 China could get this commodity and like force everyone in 0:31:08.760 --> 0:31:10.160 a change to go do something for them. And now 0:31:10.280 --> 0:31:12.640 like everyone has that Like literally everyone has that power. 0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:14.280 Like every time you use Amazon, you have that power. 0:31:14.320 --> 0:31:16.320 Every time you go to a rusturant, you have the 0:31:16.360 --> 0:31:18.560 power to do this, and it it turns people into 0:31:18.600 --> 0:31:21.720 monsters because like that's you know, the Chinese emperors are 0:31:21.760 --> 0:31:24.040 like these are some of the worst people who've ever lived. Now, 0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:27.520 like everyone everyone like just like like the fundamental basis 0:31:27.960 --> 0:31:29.640 of the society is there was a place where you 0:31:29.640 --> 0:31:32.480 can go and you can become the emperor of fucking China. 0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:36.440 The problem with the idea of instant gratification being reliant 0:31:36.440 --> 0:31:39.880 on the exploitation of other people. Yeah, and and like that, yeah, 0:31:39.880 --> 0:31:45.840 and that doesn't seem right Garrison, Oh yeah, don't worry now, 0:31:46.680 --> 0:31:49.520 watch me as I order next day delivery on a 0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:54.160 dollar drone just to just to funk around in my backyard. 0:31:54.360 --> 0:31:57.960 Like yes, it's it's everything is fine in America. I 0:31:58.160 --> 0:32:01.240 I do. I am like of the opinion that the 0:32:01.240 --> 0:32:05.480 grocery store is like the primary artistic achievement of capitalism 0:32:05.480 --> 0:32:10.120 as a system. Um. They are objectively marvels, um. And 0:32:10.160 --> 0:32:12.880 they're they're built on a river of blood deeper and 0:32:12.920 --> 0:32:16.000 wider than is. It's like it's a hyper object, right, 0:32:16.000 --> 0:32:20.040 It's like impossible to comprehend the full scale of cruelty 0:32:20.120 --> 0:32:23.880 that goes into being able to like, well, it is November. 0:32:24.520 --> 0:32:26.440 I'm gonna go get a fresh bag of grapes that 0:32:26.480 --> 0:32:30.880 have been genetically modified to taste like cotton candy, picked 0:32:30.920 --> 0:32:34.240 by people making sense an hour in Yes, in the 0:32:34.360 --> 0:32:36.560 country that's on the other side of the world. Yeah, yes, 0:32:36.560 --> 0:32:41.160 whose relatives are shot for attempting to scramble over the border. Yeah. 0:32:41.320 --> 0:32:45.360 That the grapes passed through easily. Yes. And I think 0:32:45.400 --> 0:32:47.560 like like that that points to another Like I think 0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:50.480 part of the dynamic safely with restaurants that happens, which 0:32:50.480 --> 0:32:54.640 is that like, okay, like cooking takes time, right, and 0:32:54.760 --> 0:32:58.080 the less and less time that you have, the more 0:32:58.400 --> 0:33:01.400 like the more reliant you become, um on like on 0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:04.280 these services. And so you see this with like you know, 0:33:04.480 --> 0:33:08.360 like China has like a like a particularly horrible like 0:33:08.440 --> 0:33:11.880 delivery culture, like you can like you can have someone 0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:15.680 deliver food to you, like to the train, like like 0:33:16.080 --> 0:33:17.960 a sub Like a train will stop at a stop 0:33:17.960 --> 0:33:19.720 and you can have someone run a bag of food 0:33:19.760 --> 0:33:22.160 to you and then like leave and you just like 0:33:22.400 --> 0:33:23.800 you go to the next stop and you get off. 0:33:24.760 --> 0:33:27.680 And that happens because everyone's working nine nine six, and 0:33:27.760 --> 0:33:29.640 it's like, Okay, you're working. You're working nine am the 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:33.000 nine pm, six six days a week, and you know 0:33:33.040 --> 0:33:34.680 you don't you literally do not have time to cook 0:33:34.720 --> 0:33:37.240 because you're working. You're working twelve hours a day. And 0:33:37.440 --> 0:33:40.240 like an example of this is like restaurant wrap. People 0:33:40.240 --> 0:33:44.480 who work restaurants, like line cooks and chefs hardly ever 0:33:44.520 --> 0:33:47.480 cook for themselves. They always get food from other restaurants 0:33:47.880 --> 0:33:51.440 because they're cooking eight to ten hours a day. They're 0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:54.120 not going to go home then cook for themselves. They 0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:57.800 it's like, yeah, it's this system almost it makes it 0:33:57.880 --> 0:34:01.280 makes the things that prop it up come necessary to 0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:04.160 keep the whole thing going. It's all like balancings super 0:34:04.240 --> 0:34:09.120 like precariously on its own weight. It's it's equivalent to 0:34:09.239 --> 0:34:14.160 like if you're in a criminal syndicate, making somebody you're 0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:16.520 working with tangentially shoot a man in the back of 0:34:16.520 --> 0:34:19.200 the head so that you both have blood on your hands. 0:34:19.239 --> 0:34:22.960 Like everyone is everyone just by by virtue of existing 0:34:23.040 --> 0:34:27.560 under it. Like if you're working sixty hours a week 0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:30.880 is a fucking nurse during COVID or as a fucking 0:34:30.960 --> 0:34:34.279 line cook dealing with this surge of delivery ship and 0:34:34.320 --> 0:34:36.399 then on your way home, you just want to pick 0:34:36.480 --> 0:34:40.359 up some like sushi from a fucking grocery store that 0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:43.040 requires ingredients from all around the world and is made 0:34:43.040 --> 0:34:45.279 by people who are not getting enough money to make 0:34:45.320 --> 0:34:48.320 it and is horrible for the environments and the fisheries 0:34:48.360 --> 0:34:51.160 and all that kind of ship um, And but like 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:53.799 what are you supposed to do? Like you you just 0:34:53.920 --> 0:34:56.120 you just finished like a ten hour shift, Like do 0:34:56.160 --> 0:34:59.520 you not deserve like one one nice thing at the 0:34:59.600 --> 0:35:03.840 end of the like Like Like so it's if you people 0:35:04.040 --> 0:35:09.200 can't like either you becomeing like a complete aesthetic right 0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:12.560 and and reject and go kind of ted k and 0:35:12.600 --> 0:35:14.799 live in a shack in Montana and reject all of 0:35:14.840 --> 0:35:18.920 these these kind of modern conveniences, or you accept that, 0:35:18.960 --> 0:35:21.040 like you're going to spend some time waiting into the 0:35:21.080 --> 0:35:24.279 river of blood because otherwise the things you have to 0:35:24.280 --> 0:35:28.879 do to stay alive in this society are completely emotionally unsustainable. Yeah, 0:35:29.360 --> 0:35:31.759 this was this was the original, like before it kind 0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:35.759 of became this cop out for like just doing whatever 0:35:35.800 --> 0:35:37.439 you want. Like this was the original. There's no ethnical 0:35:37.440 --> 0:35:40.000 consumption under capitalism is about this was about like this 0:35:40.040 --> 0:35:43.600 specific problem that everything in the society, Like even even 0:35:43.600 --> 0:35:45.600 if you're living in the woods and Montana, it's like yeah, 0:35:45.640 --> 0:35:47.600 like where where where did where? Like where where did 0:35:47.640 --> 0:35:49.600 your cabin come from? Like where did your nails come from? 0:35:49.640 --> 0:35:53.640 Who made the hammers? Like everyone's like completely dependent for 0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:57.120 everything on the exploitation of other people. And it it is. 0:35:57.200 --> 0:35:59.719 It is a mean. The one thing that gives me 0:35:59.719 --> 0:36:01.759 a little to hope is when Andrew was explaining how 0:36:01.800 --> 0:36:06.920 like restaurants came arise because of people who used to 0:36:07.160 --> 0:36:10.080 work for Kings and ship who then started working at 0:36:10.120 --> 0:36:12.600 restaurants because they still want to make food. It's like 0:36:12.840 --> 0:36:15.319 that evolution. Taking it to the next step is people 0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:18.279 who work at restaurants now no longer having to work 0:36:18.360 --> 0:36:21.919 under capitalist exploitation and realizing, hey, I know how to cook, well, 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:25.680 I'll just set up like ways to feed the community 0:36:25.719 --> 0:36:28.920 outside of this system of commerce. Right, that is the 0:36:28.960 --> 0:36:31.920 next evolution if you start with people cooking for the 0:36:32.040 --> 0:36:34.400 king people, then cooking in places where you pay to 0:36:34.440 --> 0:36:37.880 eat in this exploitative system, and then people cooking for 0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:41.279 people so that there's food around into like a community setting. Right, 0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:43.799 if you if you follow that trajectory, that's actually kind 0:36:43.800 --> 0:36:47.520 of hopeful. It's almost like we've come full circle. I 0:36:47.520 --> 0:36:50.160 mean in some ways. Yeah, Like right, it's if if 0:36:50.160 --> 0:36:54.600 you just go back to like beings, Yeah, like communicating. 0:36:54.600 --> 0:36:57.319 If there's places around different communities, different towns, different like 0:36:57.640 --> 0:37:02.400 urban centers that have have the capacity to feed people 0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:05.280 who are not able to cook, cook, cook for themselves 0:37:05.360 --> 0:37:08.680 that night or that day, that's something that if if 0:37:08.719 --> 0:37:11.759 it's there is ways of setting that up which I 0:37:11.800 --> 0:37:15.319 can see being so much better than how restaurants work. 0:37:15.440 --> 0:37:18.239 You know, maybe maybe people wash their own dishes afterwards, 0:37:18.239 --> 0:37:21.359 maybe people do something to help with like prep or something. Right, 0:37:21.360 --> 0:37:25.320 like there's there's there's ways to make this that gives 0:37:25.320 --> 0:37:28.160 you the parts of restaurants that are actually really convenient, 0:37:28.920 --> 0:37:31.560 um without the exploitation, and so that that type of 0:37:31.560 --> 0:37:34.399 like community cooking is something I mean, you know that's 0:37:34.680 --> 0:37:36.880 even similar to like how like a good dinner party 0:37:36.920 --> 0:37:40.799 operates um just that kind of extended out across you know, 0:37:41.040 --> 0:37:42.919 more of like a pop up setting and say, hey, yeah, 0:37:43.239 --> 0:37:45.680 this this month, we're using all of these ingredients that 0:37:45.719 --> 0:37:49.360 are grown in our general local area. Right, We're not 0:37:49.360 --> 0:37:53.760 getting shipped. We're not getting like strawberries in December shipped 0:37:53.760 --> 0:37:56.440 from halfway around the world. Will make stuff that is available, 0:37:56.960 --> 0:37:59.560 um as it you know, as it's grown, or we 0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:01.719 can pick, we can store food, right and yeah, and 0:38:01.760 --> 0:38:05.160 maybe we we've we've turned the old defunct Walmart into 0:38:05.200 --> 0:38:08.040 a grows shelter. So once or twice during the winter 0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:11.120 there are some strawberries and everybody comes together and shares 0:38:11.120 --> 0:38:13.960 this marvel that the community came like worked as a 0:38:14.000 --> 0:38:17.239 team to ensure would be available. But you can't just 0:38:17.280 --> 0:38:20.040 go and buy four pounds of strawberries that are produced 0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:22.920 with their like twice the weight of the strawberries and 0:38:22.960 --> 0:38:25.279 pesticide in order to keep them alive in fields that 0:38:25.320 --> 0:38:27.640 were never meant to grow straw Like maybe that's not 0:38:27.719 --> 0:38:33.040 available all year round. Like yeah, just give back to 0:38:33.080 --> 0:38:36.400 the point being raised to vote um about like the 0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:40.239 wethical consumption of the capitalism, because that's a really important 0:38:40.280 --> 0:38:44.760 point the whole poopas of that seeing has been lastidized. 0:38:44.920 --> 0:38:48.200 But it really is crucial to have a duance and 0:38:48.239 --> 0:38:51.279 the signing of it. What frustrates me is that it's 0:38:51.280 --> 0:38:55.520 been taken and it's been tuned into this justification and 0:38:55.520 --> 0:38:58.520 that it's okay that I buy from Sheen. It's okay 0:38:58.520 --> 0:39:01.040 that I buy a three thousand the whole from Sheen 0:39:01.239 --> 0:39:04.719 because no ethical consumption on the couple is on. Was 0:39:04.840 --> 0:39:09.600 like with where somebody goes on, they engage in something 0:39:09.640 --> 0:39:14.640 that is not is Andrew, you're talking around my two 0:39:14.640 --> 0:39:16.600 and a half pound a day veal habit and I 0:39:16.640 --> 0:39:23.920 don't appreciate. Yeah, that sounds like a problem. That's like 0:39:23.960 --> 0:39:26.640 something Joe Roken dot sets like, I eat two and 0:39:26.640 --> 0:39:29.000 to a half pads of veal every day and that 0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:35.719 keeps my brain running smoothly. The cavemen, so I mean exactly, 0:39:35.760 --> 0:39:42.520 it did work for Georgie Peterson, he's doing great. Christ 0:39:42.600 --> 0:39:49.600 at the mirror notion of Antifa, I would do an 0:39:49.600 --> 0:40:00.160 impression middle of hood my throat, so that's I would see. 0:40:00.960 --> 0:40:04.040 I would say that as we were saying, you know 0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:08.359 that there really is is potential we see even under 0:40:08.360 --> 0:40:13.080 these conditions that people find ways to survive, you know, 0:40:13.239 --> 0:40:17.759 they create like these informal work groups that are not 0:40:17.800 --> 0:40:21.279 only able to come together and push back against management, 0:40:22.120 --> 0:40:26.759 were able to work together to create trust within each other. 0:40:28.520 --> 0:40:30.880 You know, you have like for example, waiters who would 0:40:31.320 --> 0:40:33.839 try to hand in the kitchen on a slow day, 0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:38.640 or a cleaner or who might pick up a thing 0:40:38.719 --> 0:40:41.160 or two a dishwasher. We're trying to move up to 0:40:41.200 --> 0:40:46.640 become like a align cook. All these different workers, they 0:40:47.360 --> 0:40:50.239 they do things certainly to try to undermine the unnatural 0:40:50.280 --> 0:40:55.319 divisions and hierarchies and between the skill and unskilled um 0:40:55.360 --> 0:40:58.000 in the restaurants. Certain of course it doesn't always work 0:40:58.080 --> 0:41:02.560 because there are you know settings were in the manager 0:41:02.719 --> 0:41:07.600 successfully created divisions. You know, whether it be the manager 0:41:07.640 --> 0:41:14.759 creating a division between um teen different nationalities of immigrants, 0:41:14.760 --> 0:41:21.759 so you know, playing upon someone's queer phobia against like 0:41:22.000 --> 0:41:29.640 queer staff, or someone's biases against I don't know, I 0:41:29.640 --> 0:41:31.879 can't think of a third example. But there are ways 0:41:31.920 --> 0:41:37.920 a managers try to like sew these divisions between workers, 0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:43.600 and they always at workers try to push back. They're 0:41:43.600 --> 0:41:46.279 alsoways ad managers trying to do the opposite to create 0:41:46.320 --> 0:41:50.480 a community within the restaurant and includes themselves, so instead 0:41:50.520 --> 0:41:54.759 of fostering isolation and prejudice, they create a community that 0:41:55.120 --> 0:42:00.320 especially in small restaurants, that involves them that talk about 0:42:01.040 --> 0:42:03.480 that's you know, the boss might share with them how 0:42:03.560 --> 0:42:07.360 difficult it is working and organizing for the business of 0:42:07.440 --> 0:42:12.720 the restaurant. And or they might create like a special 0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:17.040 kind of restaurant focused on their identity. So they might 0:42:17.080 --> 0:42:20.759 create a restaurant for for queer youth with all the 0:42:20.800 --> 0:42:23.520 staff a queer, you know, you have a restaurant for 0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:27.520 you know, a black owned restaurant world workers and black 0:42:27.600 --> 0:42:29.680 and try to create community based on this identity. But 0:42:29.719 --> 0:42:38.560 it kind of erases the unavoidable class interests between workers 0:42:38.760 --> 0:42:44.640 and management. Its smooths over that dimension. So it becomes 0:42:44.640 --> 0:42:47.319 more difficult to organize and to speak up for your 0:42:47.400 --> 0:42:52.240 rights because you're you're aware that the managers are human 0:42:52.360 --> 0:42:55.839 and they too are struggling, Which kind of brings me 0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:58.920 to the idea of restaurants with no managers and the 0:42:58.960 --> 0:43:07.160 idea of cooperative The assume cooperative restaurants is that they 0:43:07.200 --> 0:43:10.600 basically have to collectively take on the rule of managers 0:43:10.920 --> 0:43:17.960 managing themselves, creating those pressures and pushing those pressures upon themselves. 0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:21.279 They enforced the work on each other, and they have 0:43:21.360 --> 0:43:24.080 to work longer in some cases and work harder in 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:29.360 some cases. Because the structure of a restaurant is designed 0:43:29.440 --> 0:43:31.400 to make money, and if it is not making money, 0:43:31.440 --> 0:43:36.480 then everybody loses their jobs. So, due to this pressure, 0:43:38.200 --> 0:43:43.160 bosses in a position where they have to pushed workers 0:43:43.160 --> 0:43:45.080 to get as much out of the workers as possible. 0:43:45.600 --> 0:43:48.200 You raise the boss on the occasion from the equation, 0:43:48.360 --> 0:43:51.200 but you keep the rest of the concept of a restaurant, 0:43:51.920 --> 0:43:56.319 and line between work and boss becomes blue to the 0:43:56.360 --> 0:44:02.239 extent where it's almost like image of a person with 0:44:02.280 --> 0:44:05.359 a boot on their hand pulling a boot on their head. 0:44:07.200 --> 0:44:13.280 Where this oppression there was one external becomes internalized because 0:44:14.400 --> 0:44:18.759 that is how a restaurant survives through pressure, through exploitation. 0:44:19.120 --> 0:44:22.080 It's kind of like with how self employed people are 0:44:22.160 --> 0:44:24.880 on the capitalism. Yes, you're working for yourself and you 0:44:24.920 --> 0:44:29.560 have some freedom that regard, but you're still restricted by 0:44:29.560 --> 0:44:34.439 the broader system. You haven't escaped it, You've just had 0:44:34.480 --> 0:44:37.560 to navigate it. And I have to make quarterly payments 0:44:37.600 --> 0:44:43.399 to the I R S. Yeah, I mean what I say, 0:44:43.440 --> 0:44:47.120 I think work for ourselves in some capacity a certain 0:44:47.200 --> 0:44:54.040 level of freedom, and it um you still have those pressures, 0:44:54.160 --> 0:44:57.440 and it's just you have to inflict them on yourself. 0:44:58.120 --> 0:45:02.120 You know. You don't have like a break that has 0:45:02.160 --> 0:45:05.799 been mandated, and so at least in my case, I 0:45:05.800 --> 0:45:10.440 don't take breaks because that's just how I am. You know. 0:45:10.520 --> 0:45:14.440 You work longer hours, you push yourself harder and harder, 0:45:14.480 --> 0:45:17.040 you work on days when you should be resting, and 0:45:17.080 --> 0:45:23.120 it's just it illustrates the fact that liberation is not 0:45:23.200 --> 0:45:26.400 to be found under this system, and it's something totally 0:45:26.440 --> 0:45:31.760 new with a totally different metric of success, a totally 0:45:31.760 --> 0:45:37.200 different metric of sustenance, totally different bare minimum and totally 0:45:37.200 --> 0:45:41.240 different motivation needs to be foundation upon which society is built, 0:45:41.680 --> 0:45:49.479 because there's profiting a worken. Yeah, And I think there's 0:45:49.520 --> 0:45:52.480 a like I think the reason this debate happens like this, 0:45:52.640 --> 0:45:54.440 this whole discourse happened in the first place, is just 0:45:54.480 --> 0:46:00.000 that like like just like a lot of it really 0:46:00.520 --> 0:46:06.120 was just a complete inability to imagine like literally any 0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:08.560 other way of like even just like like any other 0:46:08.600 --> 0:46:10.640 way of getting food that has not involved you going 0:46:10.680 --> 0:46:12.400 to a place and telling someone to make it for 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:22.239 you and like that. I don't know, Like, yeah, it's 0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:28.200 like the fact that there have already been sort of 0:46:28.360 --> 0:46:32.600 seismic shifts in the way that like food production happens, right, 0:46:32.719 --> 0:46:34.080 I think is evidence of like, no, we don't have 0:46:34.080 --> 0:46:35.319 to do it like that, like we just we just 0:46:35.520 --> 0:46:38.640 do not It wasn't like this for most of human history. 0:46:38.920 --> 0:46:40.960 We could do something better than whatever they were doing 0:46:41.000 --> 0:46:46.239 before it. Yeah, a lot of people might you know, 0:46:46.760 --> 0:46:50.799 wish for like in this. So it's a shift over 0:46:50.840 --> 0:46:55.040 into the abolition section of it, the restaurant abolition. A 0:46:55.040 --> 0:46:58.600 lot of people look to, for example, a union as 0:46:58.640 --> 0:47:00.840 a path by which a short too, you know, we 0:47:00.880 --> 0:47:03.680 make certain gains and belong to where we can take 0:47:03.760 --> 0:47:11.360 over and radically transforming. The difficulty comes in how unions 0:47:11.360 --> 0:47:17.120 have traditionally operated in the restaurants fair they tend to 0:47:17.680 --> 0:47:22.239 be significantly less successful. I mean, restaurants usually have very 0:47:22.320 --> 0:47:25.920 high turnover people in the last couple of months um. 0:47:25.960 --> 0:47:28.359 They often employed like a lot of young people who 0:47:28.400 --> 0:47:32.359 are just looking for part time or temporary employment. Well, 0:47:32.400 --> 0:47:35.480 people do work, they are constantly looking to move on 0:47:35.520 --> 0:47:38.000 to better things, and so it makes it difficult to 0:47:38.000 --> 0:47:41.319 create a stable union with a stable membership that can 0:47:43.480 --> 0:47:49.960 buckle down and really negotiate and push for the interests 0:47:50.000 --> 0:47:52.680 of the people working. Because people working and constantly changing. 0:47:53.600 --> 0:47:54.960 I think one of the like one of the really 0:47:55.000 --> 0:47:57.800 great things has led you is that like like especially 0:47:57.840 --> 0:48:00.360 when fast food took over, like the major unions that 0:48:00.360 --> 0:48:01.680 even do exist, which is like that we don't like 0:48:01.680 --> 0:48:03.600 we're just not gonna bother even trying to organize these 0:48:03.600 --> 0:48:07.399 people because they just assumed it was impossible, and so 0:48:07.480 --> 0:48:10.200 like there are there are very very few fast food unions. 0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:11.560 I mean, like I think one of the only like 0:48:13.640 --> 0:48:18.160 even sort of functional ones is the ww like organized Burgerville. 0:48:18.160 --> 0:48:20.200 But that's that's been like it like the like the 0:48:20.360 --> 0:48:24.520 big unions when they've done campaigns for fast food workers, 0:48:24.520 --> 0:48:27.000 it's like it will was clean like five or fifteen, 0:48:27.040 --> 0:48:29.960 but it's like they're not actually trying to like form 0:48:30.160 --> 0:48:32.400 unions of the freshmand workers, Like they don't they're not 0:48:32.440 --> 0:48:34.640 even trying. They're just trying to They're they're using them 0:48:34.680 --> 0:48:41.560 for sort of like a lot being an advocacy. Yeah, 0:48:41.960 --> 0:48:46.640 and difficulty also commins when un it's established itself, you know, 0:48:46.760 --> 0:48:56.080 because a union structurally it's not always by all the Lucas. 0:48:56.960 --> 0:49:00.759 You know, there's still sort of a hierarchy bureaucracy that 0:49:00.840 --> 0:49:03.400 may establish itself and try to maintain itself, even if 0:49:03.400 --> 0:49:07.640 it starts off benignly. No, just for all of the 0:49:07.719 --> 0:49:10.480 radical history that unions do have, quite a few unions 0:49:10.480 --> 0:49:13.239 in the particularly the United States, have also been conservative 0:49:13.280 --> 0:49:16.560 bastions and bastions of different attitudes about like stuff like 0:49:16.600 --> 0:49:18.719 white supremacy. You know, there's there's a lot of the 0:49:18.840 --> 0:49:21.480 union movement is as much Blair Mountain as it is 0:49:21.520 --> 0:49:23.399 trying to stop black people from being able to work 0:49:23.440 --> 0:49:25.520 on trains. You know, like all of those things are 0:49:25.560 --> 0:49:30.600 part of the history. Yeah, I mean, I'll speak briefly 0:49:30.680 --> 0:49:34.279 on like the union situation in the Caribbean, particularly in 0:49:34.280 --> 0:49:42.400 turned out the trade union movement was intrinsically inextricably tied 0:49:42.480 --> 0:49:45.800 with the anti colonial movements in the movement for independence. 0:49:46.600 --> 0:49:51.359 Yours to became that the unions became tied up with 0:49:51.760 --> 0:49:56.000 the political parties that are rules after independence and well 0:49:56.080 --> 0:49:59.040 during the process of independence. But I know, happening with 0:49:59.280 --> 0:50:01.359 the UNI and so was that they end up being 0:50:01.400 --> 0:50:05.200 tied to deeply with the political parties. So that ended 0:50:05.280 --> 0:50:12.000 up being that the established unions. You know, the higher 0:50:12.120 --> 0:50:15.719 ups in those established unions, they have these relationships of 0:50:15.880 --> 0:50:20.160 favors and obligations with the politicians. A lot of politicians 0:50:20.200 --> 0:50:23.080 come out of these union movements and end up establishing 0:50:23.080 --> 0:50:26.960 their own political careers. And because it's also tied up 0:50:26.960 --> 0:50:31.240 when you workers get into these industries that do have union, 0:50:31.719 --> 0:50:36.000 that have been unionized, there's a very clear separation between 0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:39.880 the union and the workers because while the union is 0:50:39.960 --> 0:50:42.000 able to you know, push for the workers rights, and 0:50:43.160 --> 0:50:49.600 you know, they're still separate from the workers. The unions 0:50:49.640 --> 0:50:54.080 still exists as a new negotiator between the workers and 0:50:54.280 --> 0:50:57.440 the management. And so you have the workers which to 0:50:57.480 --> 0:51:02.640 go beyond just negotiating. The union exists almost as a 0:51:05.080 --> 0:51:09.000 release five for any sort of class antagonists. So any 0:51:09.080 --> 0:51:13.360 kind of pressure, any kind of real pressure against the 0:51:13.480 --> 0:51:17.600 start at school. I mean, it's not just unique to 0:51:17.960 --> 0:51:20.200 to turn that outlet to the Caribean I means it's 0:51:20.239 --> 0:51:23.799 globally cross history. You've seen union struggles kind of go 0:51:23.840 --> 0:51:26.760 over the same sort of dynamic. You know, new generations 0:51:26.760 --> 0:51:29.160 of workers, they build up the movements, they build up 0:51:29.160 --> 0:51:36.400 the unions, and the unions begin to change and perhaps 0:51:36.920 --> 0:51:40.040 new union leaders spring up to replace the old union leaders, 0:51:40.680 --> 0:51:43.240 one put on the same position and the same pressure 0:51:43.239 --> 0:51:45.880 as the reacting the same way as the bureaucracy and 0:51:46.400 --> 0:51:49.600 being rejuvenated. Unions are reformed and they end up going 0:51:49.640 --> 0:51:51.760 back to the same abay as that they had been before. 0:51:53.840 --> 0:51:57.120 And in some cases, the fight to reform the union 0:51:57.640 --> 0:51:59.839 takes the place of the fight against the boss because 0:51:59.840 --> 0:52:04.080 of all the bureaucracy and system of obligations and just 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:11.399 deeply rooted ideas about the place of the union. Because well, 0:52:11.520 --> 0:52:15.880 unionizing is a difficult process. Union leaders to tend to 0:52:16.000 --> 0:52:22.239 enjoy certain benefits from their position, and as we are 0:52:22.280 --> 0:52:27.920 aware of, you know, certain hierarchies self justifying those are 0:52:27.920 --> 0:52:31.400 the top tend to want to perpetuated. It's kind of 0:52:31.440 --> 0:52:35.359 like and so this idea that this is kind of 0:52:35.360 --> 0:52:38.040 an unsettled thought of mind, but it's kind of like 0:52:38.080 --> 0:52:42.200 the idea of you know, using the state to establish 0:52:42.200 --> 0:52:45.720 workers power and then abolishing it afterwards, you know, using 0:52:46.960 --> 0:52:50.560 the union to get some shift workers po But then 0:52:50.560 --> 0:52:57.680 it's expecting this union of a certain structure that exists 0:52:58.160 --> 0:53:02.040 towards negotiating, ends to somehow pushing these sort of more 0:53:02.120 --> 0:53:09.800 radical directions. There's a saying that that um, but the 0:53:09.960 --> 0:53:13.719 zine um the rights of the zine says, it's like 0:53:14.360 --> 0:53:20.000 restaurant unions needed to be restaurants and we don't. I 0:53:20.000 --> 0:53:22.640 think that sort of applies more broadly because when we 0:53:22.680 --> 0:53:25.839 get into the whole idea of like work apbulation, it's 0:53:25.880 --> 0:53:34.400 just concept of workers are people outside of work, but 0:53:34.520 --> 0:53:39.399 a workers union exists within the confines of work as 0:53:39.400 --> 0:53:44.640 we understand it. So I think that's where the difficulty lies. 0:53:46.960 --> 0:53:49.600 The zine goes on to say later on that every 0:53:49.600 --> 0:53:52.840 time we attack the system, but we don't destroy it, 0:53:52.840 --> 0:53:55.719 it changes and in turn changes us, and the train 0:53:55.760 --> 0:53:59.200 of the next fight gains are tuned against us, and 0:53:59.239 --> 0:54:02.360 we are stuck back in the same situation at work. 0:54:03.320 --> 0:54:05.120 The boss to try to keep us looking for individual 0:54:05.160 --> 0:54:08.560 solutions or solutions within an individual workplace or an individual trade. 0:54:09.120 --> 0:54:10.920 But the only way that we can free ourselves is 0:54:10.960 --> 0:54:14.120 to broaden and deepen our fight. We involve worcause from 0:54:14.160 --> 0:54:17.640 other workplaces, other industries, and other regions. We attack more 0:54:17.640 --> 0:54:22.280 and more fundamental things. The desire to destroy restaurants becomes 0:54:22.280 --> 0:54:27.840 a desire to destroy the conditions that create restaurants. We 0:54:27.880 --> 0:54:31.080 aren't just fighting for representation in or control over the 0:54:31.080 --> 0:54:34.560 production process or fighters and against the act of chopping 0:54:34.640 --> 0:54:37.640 vegetables and washing dishes, or poor and bear or even 0:54:37.640 --> 0:54:40.560 serving foods other people. Is with the way all of 0:54:40.560 --> 0:54:43.440 these acts are brought together in a restaurant, separated from 0:54:43.440 --> 0:54:46.200 other acts, become part of the economy. And I used 0:54:46.200 --> 0:54:49.719 to expand capital. The starting and ending point to this 0:54:49.800 --> 0:54:53.120 process is a society of capitalists and people forced to 0:54:53.120 --> 0:54:56.200 work for them. We want an enter this. We want 0:54:56.239 --> 0:54:59.359 to destroy the production process or something outside and against us. 0:55:00.040 --> 0:55:02.360 We're fighting for a world of productive activity, fulfills. The 0:55:02.440 --> 0:55:05.719 need is an expression of our lives, not forced on 0:55:05.800 --> 0:55:09.080 us in exchange for a wage. A world were produce 0:55:09.200 --> 0:55:11.319 for each other directly, and I don't know where to 0:55:11.360 --> 0:55:14.600 sell to each other. The struggle of restaurant workers is 0:55:14.680 --> 0:55:19.320 ultimately for a world without restaurants or workers. And I 0:55:19.360 --> 0:55:21.839 mean so, I think people are still going to call 0:55:21.920 --> 0:55:29.319 small degensives restaurants restaurants anyway, probably, But I hope this 0:55:29.800 --> 0:55:37.400 discussion as cause equals kind of deepen approach to this. 0:55:56.239 --> 0:56:00.160 Welcome to it could happen here. I am Robert d 0:56:00.680 --> 0:56:04.040 uh and this is a podcast about things falling apart 0:56:04.080 --> 0:56:06.520 and sometimes how to put them all together. And you know, 0:56:06.719 --> 0:56:09.120 today we're actually going to be talking more about the ladder, 0:56:09.160 --> 0:56:12.040 which I know is revolutionary for us. We're usually just 0:56:12.160 --> 0:56:14.880 kind of like getting way more into the doom er stuff. 0:56:14.920 --> 0:56:17.279 But I think there's been more than enough of that, 0:56:17.320 --> 0:56:20.720 particularly in the wake of several horrific Supreme Court rulings 0:56:20.719 --> 0:56:22.440 that I don't really need feel the need to go 0:56:22.480 --> 0:56:24.160 into detail on, but one of the things that has 0:56:24.160 --> 0:56:26.239 happened in the wake of these rulings this this like 0:56:27.160 --> 0:56:29.960 kind of liberal reaction to the fact that to the 0:56:29.960 --> 0:56:31.719 fact and they're right to be angry about the fact 0:56:31.800 --> 0:56:35.080 that they're being essentially governed by a small minority of 0:56:35.080 --> 0:56:38.760 people who are very densely geographically located in the South, 0:56:38.800 --> 0:56:41.040 that is where like the bulk of the support for 0:56:41.120 --> 0:56:44.600 the the hard rights policies comes from. Um and it's 0:56:44.640 --> 0:56:49.359 led to this like fuck Texas, Fuck Florida, Fuck uh, 0:56:49.400 --> 0:56:52.560 these these quote unquote like red states, these regressive states, 0:56:52.600 --> 0:56:55.440 which is this deeply problematic for a number of reasons, 0:56:55.440 --> 0:56:57.759 including the fact that you know, if you just want 0:56:57.760 --> 0:57:00.239 to look at it in terms of party politics, there 0:57:00.239 --> 0:57:02.920 were more people who voted for a Democrat in Texas 0:57:02.960 --> 0:57:05.759 in the election than live in either the state of 0:57:05.760 --> 0:57:10.200 Oregon or Washington. UM. These are densely populated places with 0:57:10.200 --> 0:57:12.399 a tremendous amount of people who are people of color, 0:57:12.440 --> 0:57:15.239 who are trans who are you know, in some way 0:57:15.280 --> 0:57:19.160 threatened by this weird Cristo fascist bullshit that is increasingly 0:57:19.240 --> 0:57:21.200 clamping down on the country. And so today I wanted 0:57:21.240 --> 0:57:24.360 to talk with some folks who will live in and 0:57:24.440 --> 0:57:28.680 around the Dallas, Texas what we call the DFW areat 0:57:28.720 --> 0:57:31.880 Dallas Fort Worth, UM, and who have lately been organizing 0:57:31.960 --> 0:57:35.600 to kind of both confront this, uh, this rising Cristo 0:57:35.640 --> 0:57:38.400 fascist like the street aggression portion of it, and to 0:57:38.480 --> 0:57:41.960 provide support in defense um for people who are are 0:57:41.960 --> 0:57:44.360 being victimized by it. So I'd like to welcome some 0:57:44.480 --> 0:57:47.440 representatives of the Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club to 0:57:47.840 --> 0:57:51.280 the show. Hey, y'all, boy, Yeah, do you want to 0:57:51.320 --> 0:57:53.720 kind of introduce yourselves to to start? However you'd like 0:57:53.800 --> 0:58:00.000 to be known on the show? I'm Satan, I'm bubble 0:58:00.600 --> 0:58:04.800 Satan and bubble um And how long have y'all been 0:58:05.520 --> 0:58:09.400 like doing Because there's there's two specific things that kind 0:58:09.440 --> 0:58:12.280 of I don't know, I became aware of y'all, and 0:58:12.280 --> 0:58:14.439 and we had some brief interactions, right, It's a brief 0:58:14.440 --> 0:58:17.960 interaction that some of your folks during the the snow 0:58:18.000 --> 0:58:23.200 thing that that destroyed everything, um. And so I've been 0:58:23.280 --> 0:58:26.600 kind of watching y'all socials ever since. And there were 0:58:26.600 --> 0:58:29.479 a couple of things recently that struck me as very 0:58:30.360 --> 0:58:34.760 uh worth discussion actions that you y'all were a part of. 0:58:34.760 --> 0:58:37.680 One of them was there's a neighborhood in Dallas called 0:58:37.680 --> 0:58:40.560 Oak Lawn that is kind of colloquially known as the gighborhood. 0:58:40.560 --> 0:58:44.440 It is like the um the gay neighborhood in Dallas obviously, 0:58:44.480 --> 0:58:46.720 and so it's a place that you know, even before 0:58:46.880 --> 0:58:52.160 kind of things got a little easier after twenty um, 0:58:52.200 --> 0:58:54.640 it was kind of a safe place and a little 0:58:54.640 --> 0:58:57.160 bit like of a of a of a fortress for 0:58:57.280 --> 0:59:00.040 like people who are not you know, straight and this 0:59:00.200 --> 0:59:05.360 gender which is and kind of are you know, for 0:59:05.400 --> 0:59:07.920 for an idea of how aspects of the df W 0:59:08.080 --> 0:59:09.760 area can be. The town I grew up in, Plano, 0:59:09.880 --> 0:59:12.480 had a condoms to go move in, and within like 0:59:12.600 --> 0:59:15.680 two nights of setting up shop and Plano, somebody fired 0:59:15.720 --> 0:59:17.880 a nine millimeter handgun through the window like it's not 0:59:17.960 --> 0:59:20.840 a it's a place where it could be difficult. UM. 0:59:20.920 --> 0:59:26.280 And so obviously repression and kind of violence and fears 0:59:26.320 --> 0:59:30.120 of vigilante violence um from folks who are queer has 0:59:30.800 --> 0:59:33.120 is understandably amped up in the wake of everything that's 0:59:33.120 --> 0:59:35.680 been happening. And y'all carried out an action where a 0:59:36.040 --> 0:59:41.120 sizeable group of leftists marched armed through the gaghborhood. Um. 0:59:41.760 --> 0:59:43.640 The one of the there were a couple of different 0:59:43.720 --> 0:59:46.440 chants that that I was hearing. One of them was, 0:59:46.600 --> 0:59:48.920 um about bashing back something like that. You want to 0:59:48.920 --> 0:59:50.640 talk a little bit about like that action and what 0:59:50.680 --> 0:59:56.760 actually went down. Um. Sure. So at the beginning of 0:59:57.080 --> 0:59:59.920 Pride Month, we had a large group of fascists come 1:00:00.040 --> 1:00:04.680 to the gighborhood. Um, you know, they were shouting groomer, 1:00:04.840 --> 1:00:07.440 they were telling us the fist of Christ is coming 1:00:07.480 --> 1:00:11.360 down on you soon and um, you know, making really 1:00:11.360 --> 1:00:16.240 out their threats. So we discussed, um, you know, what 1:00:16.280 --> 1:00:19.360 we could do to be proactive to make sure that 1:00:19.400 --> 1:00:23.600 doesn't happen again. Um. And we ended up getting together 1:00:23.720 --> 1:00:27.200 some groups who were interested in an armed demonstration, which 1:00:27.640 --> 1:00:32.480 even here in Texas is not something you see too often. UM. 1:00:32.520 --> 1:00:37.800 And we decided to march through the gabhborhood. You know, Um, 1:00:37.880 --> 1:00:39.720 I would say a majority of the people that we 1:00:39.800 --> 1:00:47.920 know are LGBT and h it's our neighborhood. So you know, 1:00:48.120 --> 1:00:51.520 we put on this demonstration there and it was, you know, 1:00:51.640 --> 1:00:53.800 kind of incredible. We got some looks, but we also 1:00:53.840 --> 1:00:56.960 got a lot of support. Um, we had a lot 1:00:57.000 --> 1:01:02.280 of great chance. Um. You know, bottoms tops we all 1:01:02.280 --> 1:01:08.560 hate cops. There we go. Yeah, yeah, that was the 1:01:08.720 --> 1:01:11.640 that was the one that was in the video. Um. 1:01:11.680 --> 1:01:15.680 And so what was the I'm interested in kind of 1:01:16.640 --> 1:01:18.480 because I think this is the kind of thing that 1:01:18.680 --> 1:01:22.080 is potentially very useful. We we have seen. One of 1:01:22.120 --> 1:01:24.000 the things that I have personally observed and that has 1:01:24.040 --> 1:01:26.680 been observed by a number of folks, is that when 1:01:26.920 --> 1:01:30.880 these kind of right wing mobs who primarily want people 1:01:30.920 --> 1:01:33.120 who cannot defend themselves, who don't have the numbers to 1:01:33.160 --> 1:01:35.720 defend themselves, they want to like beat the ship out 1:01:35.760 --> 1:01:37.560 of people in a gang, right Like, that's that's the 1:01:37.840 --> 1:01:39.960 proud boy thing, that's the Patriot prayer thing. That's all 1:01:40.000 --> 1:01:44.040 these weird little groups. Primarily what they want to do. 1:01:44.080 --> 1:01:46.920 They don't want a fair fight. And when they are 1:01:46.960 --> 1:01:51.200 confronted with organized people on the left who are armed, 1:01:51.680 --> 1:01:53.760 that tends to scare the ship out of them. And 1:01:54.640 --> 1:01:56.840 if I'm not mistaken, during that day where you had 1:01:56.840 --> 1:02:01.360 those Christian fascists kind of coming after um that Queer 1:02:01.400 --> 1:02:03.439 family event, like one of the one of the live 1:02:03.480 --> 1:02:05.200 streams that one of the right wingers had, people were 1:02:05.280 --> 1:02:06.920 some of them were like commenting on the fact that 1:02:06.960 --> 1:02:10.600 there were people leftist open carrying and like how unsettling 1:02:10.600 --> 1:02:14.120 they found that. Um So I'm interested in kind of 1:02:14.160 --> 1:02:17.760 how the idea too, we're going to do this, have 1:02:17.920 --> 1:02:20.040 this kind of a march, you know, through this neighborhood, 1:02:20.040 --> 1:02:21.840 we're going to make sort of a show beforce. How 1:02:21.840 --> 1:02:24.920 that idea kind of came together? And then what logistically 1:02:24.960 --> 1:02:27.560 did y'all like feel the need to set up, Like 1:02:28.040 --> 1:02:30.120 I'm gonna guess it wasn't as simple as like hey, 1:02:30.120 --> 1:02:32.200 everybody with a gun, like come come meet here and 1:02:32.200 --> 1:02:35.240 we're gonna have us a walk. Um So I'm interested 1:02:35.280 --> 1:02:36.920 in kind of what the logistics are because I think 1:02:36.960 --> 1:02:39.560 this is the kind of thing that people other people 1:02:39.560 --> 1:02:42.360 are going to want, like find useful to do, like 1:02:42.520 --> 1:02:45.000 statements of we are here, we have the tools to 1:02:45.080 --> 1:02:48.280 defend ourselves and we're not going to just passively let 1:02:48.280 --> 1:02:54.240 you run through our neighborhoods fucking with us. I think logistically, 1:02:54.320 --> 1:02:57.439 one of the big things was just making sure that, 1:02:58.000 --> 1:03:02.720 you know, everyone who was carrying was carrying properly, and 1:03:02.760 --> 1:03:05.440 then also to protect our own selves, making sure that 1:03:05.480 --> 1:03:08.920 whoever was carrying was also protecting our identity by wearing 1:03:09.680 --> 1:03:13.880 essentially full black walk UM, which that in itself sends 1:03:13.880 --> 1:03:17.080 a message. You know, a bunch of queer people marching 1:03:17.120 --> 1:03:19.760 through the streets of Dallas and full black block with 1:03:19.960 --> 1:03:24.000 guns UM sends a message like we're not going to 1:03:24.040 --> 1:03:26.880 take your ship. We're done. You know, you're not gonna 1:03:26.920 --> 1:03:30.680 mess with our bodily autonomy. UM. That march happened, We 1:03:30.720 --> 1:03:34.200 had planned it to be on that day originally, and 1:03:34.280 --> 1:03:37.480 that happened to be the day that Robie Wade was 1:03:37.560 --> 1:03:42.720 overturned UM, and it essentially just evolved that morning to 1:03:43.000 --> 1:03:48.240 a more intersectional body bodily autonomy march. But really logistically 1:03:48.280 --> 1:03:52.120 it was mostly about protecting ourselves and making sure that 1:03:52.320 --> 1:03:55.400 people who weren't carrying the firearms were also so protected 1:03:55.480 --> 1:03:59.040 from our firearms. Yeah, I want to dive into that 1:03:59.080 --> 1:04:01.240 a little bit, because that's so an important aspect of 1:04:01.280 --> 1:04:04.600 it is the ensuring saying. I have seen a lot 1:04:04.640 --> 1:04:06.760 of marches, and I will be honest, I've seen a 1:04:06.760 --> 1:04:10.840 lot of people being armed on on both sides politically, 1:04:10.880 --> 1:04:13.440 who have done things with guns that I would consider reckless. 1:04:13.800 --> 1:04:16.440 Probably the top moment in my mind is during a 1:04:16.440 --> 1:04:19.520 big march in Portland somebody leaned over and a glock 1:04:19.640 --> 1:04:21.520 fell out of the front pouch of their hoodie that 1:04:21.560 --> 1:04:26.280 they were just head loose in there. Um yeah, UM, 1:04:26.320 --> 1:04:28.520 So obviously it is not as it should not be 1:04:28.560 --> 1:04:30.840 as simple as like, you know, load up on guns 1:04:30.840 --> 1:04:33.640 and bring your friends, so to speak. How do you 1:04:34.200 --> 1:04:37.120 attempt to ensure like how like how do you actually 1:04:37.400 --> 1:04:41.560 go about handling the safety aspect? Is it? Like? Are 1:04:41.560 --> 1:04:44.400 you appointing essentially kind of like range officers. Before the march, 1:04:44.440 --> 1:04:45.880 we were keeping an eye on ship, like what does 1:04:45.880 --> 1:04:48.800 that actually look like? Um? I want to I want 1:04:48.800 --> 1:04:51.240 to give two examples for the march we did in 1:04:51.240 --> 1:04:54.680 the gighborhood. Um, it was different in that it wasn't 1:04:54.680 --> 1:04:59.000 publicly announced wearing um it was going to be, so 1:04:59.040 --> 1:05:02.760 it was kind of a by invitation only demonstration, so 1:05:02.800 --> 1:05:05.880 we knew pretty much everybody that was coming, except for 1:05:05.920 --> 1:05:09.760 people in the neighborhood who kind of joined ad hawc UM. 1:05:09.840 --> 1:05:13.560 So that's one way that we've done things. When we 1:05:13.640 --> 1:05:20.040 do more of like uh protest security for other actions. UM. 1:05:20.080 --> 1:05:23.080 You know, there are different people who will feel motivated 1:05:23.120 --> 1:05:28.800 to bring UM arms and usually they know what they're 1:05:28.800 --> 1:05:31.520 doing pretty well. In a couple of instances where someone 1:05:31.640 --> 1:05:34.240 is being unsafe, UM, you know, one of us will 1:05:34.280 --> 1:05:36.400 just go over there and talk to them, you know, 1:05:36.560 --> 1:05:40.640 like hey, you you you really need a sling uh 1:05:40.680 --> 1:05:43.800 for this, or you know, don't don't be uh pointing 1:05:43.840 --> 1:05:46.959 it in any way at a building. UM. Just little 1:05:47.000 --> 1:05:51.560 tips like that too, you know, resolve the behavior. So 1:05:51.600 --> 1:05:55.680 when it actually comes to like uh because because one 1:05:55.720 --> 1:05:57.320 of the things like whenever you have sort of a 1:05:57.320 --> 1:06:00.560 gathering like this is is de escalation and even within 1:06:00.680 --> 1:06:04.600 people within the march potentially like dispute resolution and that 1:06:04.680 --> 1:06:07.200 sort of thing. What was the how how did you 1:06:07.280 --> 1:06:09.640 kind of organize for that? Like what was the planning 1:06:09.640 --> 1:06:11.960 on that? And like, um, I think that's a really 1:06:11.960 --> 1:06:14.880 important question. One of the first things that we decided 1:06:14.880 --> 1:06:18.240 pretty early on is that we are not there to 1:06:18.320 --> 1:06:22.720 police any protesters. So you know if someone is is 1:06:22.800 --> 1:06:26.439 doing something illegal. Uh, And no, at no point where 1:06:26.440 --> 1:06:28.640 we you know, tell them to stop or try to 1:06:28.680 --> 1:06:31.000 make them stop. We may move away from the area 1:06:31.440 --> 1:06:35.240 or something like that, but we're not there too police 1:06:35.240 --> 1:06:38.600 our people at all. When it comes to like counters 1:06:38.640 --> 1:06:42.080 coming up in antagonizing, the main thing we do is 1:06:42.080 --> 1:06:46.720 try to put ourselves between them and any people they're targeting. Um. 1:06:46.760 --> 1:06:48.920 And you know, we have cameras, we have less than lethal, 1:06:49.000 --> 1:06:52.680 we have different tools to try to de escalate that. Yeah, 1:06:52.760 --> 1:06:57.360 And so when it comes to like, uh, I guess 1:06:57.400 --> 1:06:59.680 training on that end, did you kind did you have 1:06:59.720 --> 1:07:04.720 any sort of like um um infrastructure, human infrastructure whatnot 1:07:04.800 --> 1:07:07.280 set up prior to this to like make sure people 1:07:07.280 --> 1:07:09.840 who were like doing de escalation were folks that you knew, 1:07:10.360 --> 1:07:12.480 you know, had some level of understanding of it, or 1:07:12.520 --> 1:07:14.520 folks that you could trust. Like how was the actual 1:07:14.560 --> 1:07:17.080 how do you actually because I mean, it strikes me 1:07:17.120 --> 1:07:19.240 that there is a great deal of like trust that's 1:07:19.280 --> 1:07:21.560 necessary to put together something like this, To be able 1:07:21.600 --> 1:07:24.680 to meet up with folks and and like march armed 1:07:24.720 --> 1:07:27.920 together requires probably a little bit more in in the 1:07:27.960 --> 1:07:30.480 way of of of trust than you know, just showing 1:07:30.560 --> 1:07:35.640 up at a protest. UM, that's kind of more conventional. Um. 1:07:35.880 --> 1:07:38.400 Was there sort of some in any kind of like 1:07:38.480 --> 1:07:42.400 I don't know, system or or like yeah, training or 1:07:42.400 --> 1:07:45.720 whatnot that y'all had for specifically like how to behave 1:07:45.760 --> 1:07:47.520 how to de escalate all that kind of stuff. Or 1:07:47.560 --> 1:07:49.240 was it just like folks that kind of you knew 1:07:49.280 --> 1:07:52.280 from from prior events were good at that sort of thing. 1:07:53.040 --> 1:07:56.680 I mean, as far as our group goes, UM, I 1:07:56.720 --> 1:07:59.480 can speak to myself personally and say that I trust 1:08:00.080 --> 1:08:04.680 one of our people with my life. UM. And I 1:08:04.720 --> 1:08:07.800 think because of that, and because we were really the 1:08:07.840 --> 1:08:10.680 ones putting it on, like we knew that if something 1:08:10.720 --> 1:08:13.560 were to go down, one of us would get in 1:08:13.560 --> 1:08:16.360 the middle of it, and we all trust each other. 1:08:16.479 --> 1:08:20.759 I think that in any sort of organizing environment, trusting 1:08:20.920 --> 1:08:24.360 trusting the people that you're working with is one of 1:08:24.360 --> 1:08:27.519 the most vital things that you can do because they're 1:08:27.520 --> 1:08:30.240 going to be the ones beside you when a proud 1:08:30.280 --> 1:08:33.360 boy rolls up and you want the person decide you 1:08:33.400 --> 1:08:36.160 to be someone that you can trust. UM, And we 1:08:36.200 --> 1:08:39.720 do that. We do have you know, we we do practice, 1:08:39.800 --> 1:08:42.960 and we do train together, and UM, we also have 1:08:43.120 --> 1:08:47.240 fun together and having that certain level of trust means 1:08:47.280 --> 1:08:51.360 the world when you're putting yourself out there in that way. 1:08:51.479 --> 1:08:53.720 And how long of the folks that are kind of 1:08:53.760 --> 1:08:57.880 like you're, we're most affiliated with like making this happen. 1:08:57.920 --> 1:09:00.120 How long have you all been sort of organizing and 1:09:00.120 --> 1:09:03.759 and doing stuff together. I would say most of us met, 1:09:04.280 --> 1:09:09.920 since all of us met in organizing different facilities during 1:09:11.200 --> 1:09:15.600 after the FOD protests and then just to boom in 1:09:15.760 --> 1:09:20.120 mutual aid that happened in DFW after that, Whether it 1:09:20.240 --> 1:09:25.040 was through Homeless Outreach or um, you know, bell bonds 1:09:25.280 --> 1:09:28.120 or however we met each other, it was mostly through 1:09:28.160 --> 1:09:30.720 that mutual aid community and getting out in the our 1:09:30.800 --> 1:09:35.080 communities and organizing ourselves and trying to find like minded 1:09:35.080 --> 1:09:40.280 people who wanted to see the same change happened. Now. UM, 1:09:40.320 --> 1:09:42.760 I think one of the uh, one of the things 1:09:42.800 --> 1:09:45.200 that's been on my mind a lot lately, and that 1:09:45.200 --> 1:09:49.400 that y'all particularly bring up, is the challenges of organizing 1:09:49.560 --> 1:09:53.320 in parts of the country where not just you know, 1:09:53.360 --> 1:09:56.880 the police who are always pretty regressive, but the entire 1:09:57.000 --> 1:10:01.240 legal structure is set up to as Florida has increasing, 1:10:01.240 --> 1:10:05.120 thevential number states have done like punished protests. Penalized activism 1:10:05.240 --> 1:10:08.920 make things more dangerous for for for people who are 1:10:09.000 --> 1:10:11.920 like going out there in public in addition to doing 1:10:11.960 --> 1:10:15.040 things to try and criminalize you know, people who are 1:10:15.080 --> 1:10:20.160 are are not uh straight, you know, white Christians. UM. 1:10:20.240 --> 1:10:22.759 So when you look at like kind of the challenges 1:10:22.800 --> 1:10:25.040 of organizing in a place where it's more dangerous, and 1:10:25.040 --> 1:10:27.920 obviously it's it's not particularly safe to be organizing against 1:10:27.960 --> 1:10:29.439 you know, the l A p D. But the court 1:10:29.479 --> 1:10:35.200 system in California is broadly speaking less stacked against you. UM. 1:10:35.360 --> 1:10:37.719 So if you had advice to give to people who 1:10:38.080 --> 1:10:40.760 had don't have this group of friends and people they've 1:10:40.760 --> 1:10:43.040 been organizing with for a couple of years already, but 1:10:43.120 --> 1:10:45.080 they want to have that, they want to build that 1:10:45.120 --> 1:10:49.160 in their community, where would you suggest they start? UM. 1:10:49.200 --> 1:10:52.720 I always tell people that it starts by showing up 1:10:53.320 --> 1:10:56.559 um to all kinds of events, you know, supporting a 1:10:56.560 --> 1:11:01.200 broad range of groups. And you know, you're at the protests, 1:11:01.280 --> 1:11:05.880 if you are at the feedings, the distributions, UM, You're 1:11:05.920 --> 1:11:09.479 gonna meet people and you're gonna build trust um, mutual 1:11:09.520 --> 1:11:12.280 trust there UM So that you know, when you want 1:11:12.320 --> 1:11:14.040 to start a project, you want to start a group, 1:11:14.520 --> 1:11:18.120 you'll have those people that know you. Um, it is 1:11:18.240 --> 1:11:22.160 very dangerous. Uh. I think it's always important to tell 1:11:22.200 --> 1:11:24.840 people to watch your op set. You know, don't be 1:11:25.360 --> 1:11:28.559 re sharing all kinds of activist stuff with your personal 1:11:29.120 --> 1:11:31.800 profile that has your name and your birthday and all 1:11:31.840 --> 1:11:34.320 of that. But yeah, it really goes to meeting people 1:11:34.320 --> 1:11:39.000 in person, I think. Yeah, And um, I mean that's 1:11:39.000 --> 1:11:40.640 such a difficult part of it because I think for 1:11:40.760 --> 1:11:42.960 a lot of people, particularly who maybe are living in 1:11:43.120 --> 1:11:46.320 rural areas, who are living, um, kind of outside of 1:11:46.800 --> 1:11:50.920 places that have well formed protest communities, social media and 1:11:50.960 --> 1:11:53.639 the internet is is a lifeline for them and often 1:11:53.640 --> 1:11:55.720 in a lot of cases like how they came to 1:11:55.800 --> 1:11:57.720 a lot of the political beliefs in a desire to 1:11:57.760 --> 1:12:02.920 do something. Um, but you're like, you can't. You have 1:12:03.000 --> 1:12:05.360 to actually get like face to face on the ground 1:12:05.360 --> 1:12:07.760 with people to actually build the kind of relationships that 1:12:07.800 --> 1:12:10.080 can lead to the sort of activism that y'all are doing. 1:12:10.120 --> 1:12:12.040 And that's that is a tough needle for a lot 1:12:12.080 --> 1:12:14.200 of people to threat I think, and you know, in 1:12:14.240 --> 1:12:19.000 those more rural communities, if there's not already those systems 1:12:19.000 --> 1:12:24.040 in place, you know, set up a monthly mail distribution 1:12:24.520 --> 1:12:28.960 with the local homeless shelter, the local homeless camp. And 1:12:29.200 --> 1:12:31.800 if you you know, can get a few friends, more 1:12:31.880 --> 1:12:35.000 people will show up and you can build that community yourself, 1:12:35.120 --> 1:12:39.240 even where it's not existing already. UM. It's more about 1:12:39.360 --> 1:12:42.959 just finding those like minded individuals that are already existing 1:12:43.000 --> 1:12:46.599 in your community and getting to know your neighbors. Yeah, 1:12:46.880 --> 1:12:49.400 to trust your neighbors. I think that's a great as 1:12:49.439 --> 1:12:51.200 far as the plan of action goes as good as 1:12:51.200 --> 1:12:54.679 you can get for at least starting down that road. UM. 1:12:54.720 --> 1:12:56.960 Before we kind of move on from this specific action, 1:12:57.000 --> 1:12:58.280 I did want to talk a little bit about the 1:12:58.320 --> 1:13:01.600 conversations you had both with like people who lived in 1:13:01.640 --> 1:13:07.360 Oaklawn and also with um, you know, passers by. I'm wondering, like, UM, 1:13:07.560 --> 1:13:09.680 did you have any that particularly surprised you or that 1:13:10.080 --> 1:13:13.320 particularly stick out to you right now? I personally was 1:13:13.520 --> 1:13:17.559 a little bit more surprised with the amount of support 1:13:17.640 --> 1:13:21.640 that we received, um, just because while Oaklawn is the 1:13:21.680 --> 1:13:28.160 gighborhood is generally more blue liberal, yes, park Town very 1:13:28.240 --> 1:13:32.920 anti gun typically yea, very yea. And to see you know, 1:13:33.000 --> 1:13:35.920 people sitting on the patios of the bars carrying for 1:13:36.160 --> 1:13:41.320 us while we were walking by. Especially as someone who 1:13:41.680 --> 1:13:44.240 has been you know, grown up in that area, it 1:13:44.720 --> 1:13:47.760 meant a lot. You know. It really shows almost like 1:13:47.840 --> 1:13:50.439 the cultural shift that we're going as far as left 1:13:50.439 --> 1:13:53.480 this politics go. If people are going to be supportive 1:13:53.520 --> 1:13:56.640 of us. Yeah, that's really interesting to hear. And now 1:13:56.640 --> 1:13:59.680 I were there, did you have any kind of interactions 1:13:59.680 --> 1:14:02.000 with out of I don't know people who were who 1:14:02.040 --> 1:14:05.200 were more conservative or more on the on the center 1:14:05.320 --> 1:14:07.880 right side of things. I think we had a couple 1:14:07.920 --> 1:14:11.320 of people who were kind of filming and frowning. It's 1:14:11.320 --> 1:14:14.320 always hard to tell, yeah, in that case, but no 1:14:14.360 --> 1:14:20.880 one really said anything to us. That's interesting. Yeah, And 1:14:20.960 --> 1:14:22.600 now that was that what that kind of brings me 1:14:22.640 --> 1:14:25.680 to the next topic, which is how how how did 1:14:25.760 --> 1:14:30.120 Dallas how to DPD handle this? Un hardly out of 1:14:30.160 --> 1:14:35.080 our cars and multiple police cars surrounding us while we 1:14:35.080 --> 1:14:40.320 were just unloading um. They were constantly trying to guess 1:14:40.360 --> 1:14:43.719 where we were going with the mark um by cutting 1:14:43.720 --> 1:14:48.599 off streets and trying to like escort us and like 1:14:49.200 --> 1:14:53.559 you know, blocking traffic and things like that. But but 1:14:53.720 --> 1:14:57.160 we were there less than five minutes before I would 1:14:57.200 --> 1:15:01.799 say at least four police cars were surrounding us, asking 1:15:01.920 --> 1:15:04.920 us questions. They were pulling out their guns like we 1:15:04.920 --> 1:15:10.160 were a threat. Geez. Um, Well, I mean yeah, that's 1:15:10.560 --> 1:15:13.720 that doesn't surprise me. Um. Did you have any kind 1:15:13.760 --> 1:15:16.320 of like direct is did they send like the p 1:15:16.479 --> 1:15:18.679 I O s up to try and you know, talk 1:15:18.720 --> 1:15:22.280 with organizers or whatever? Um? So they did right at 1:15:22.320 --> 1:15:25.479 the beginning, and I think that interaction went really well, 1:15:25.920 --> 1:15:28.960 um because they approached us as we were getting ready, 1:15:29.360 --> 1:15:32.759 and they said, you know, what group is this, Who's 1:15:32.800 --> 1:15:36.880 in charge, who's who's leading? What are your plans? And 1:15:37.120 --> 1:15:40.880 you know, every single person who was there was disciplined 1:15:41.000 --> 1:15:43.639 enough to either say nothing or say no plans. There's 1:15:43.640 --> 1:15:47.000 no group, there's no leaders. And you know after that, 1:15:47.040 --> 1:15:53.160 they kept their distance. They did not really interfere more. Yeah, 1:15:53.360 --> 1:15:57.240 I mean that that is one of those things um, 1:15:57.400 --> 1:16:02.400 that police know. I've always found it useful too when 1:16:02.400 --> 1:16:04.720 you are having when you have to have an interaction 1:16:04.760 --> 1:16:09.640 with a police officer and um, sometimes it is unavoidable, 1:16:10.000 --> 1:16:12.120 like you need to kind of focus on like what 1:16:12.160 --> 1:16:13.760 are the things that they need to hear for this 1:16:13.840 --> 1:16:17.280 interaction to like end, um and end you know, not 1:16:17.400 --> 1:16:21.040 in them getting violent. Um. And I think it sounds like, yeah, 1:16:21.120 --> 1:16:23.439 you you you'll handled it perfectly like that that was 1:16:23.479 --> 1:16:26.519 the right way for everyone to react, like you were. 1:16:27.320 --> 1:16:29.360 It is Texas, Like it's not like it is at 1:16:29.360 --> 1:16:33.519 all illegal to walk around with guns. Um, so yeah, 1:16:33.520 --> 1:16:37.160 I mean that's that sounds that sounds again. I'm impressed 1:16:37.160 --> 1:16:41.040 by kind of both the boldness of the action but 1:16:41.080 --> 1:16:44.240 also the discipline that that was required to actually that 1:16:44.320 --> 1:16:47.240 was required like from the ground up right, not not 1:16:47.320 --> 1:16:49.639 because like the there was some sort of like vanguard 1:16:49.720 --> 1:16:53.800 leadership exerting force downward in order to actually make this 1:16:53.920 --> 1:16:56.959 work safely and in a way that that left hopefully 1:16:56.960 --> 1:16:59.400 and it seems like this is the case people who 1:16:59.439 --> 1:17:02.640 live in the area feeling broadly speaking pretty good about it. 1:17:03.160 --> 1:17:07.160 I would say that, you know, since the march, in particular, 1:17:07.400 --> 1:17:11.760 just in DFW in its entirety, the support that we 1:17:11.840 --> 1:17:17.040 have received has been almost overwhelming. Um. You know, people 1:17:17.720 --> 1:17:22.120 now recognize the people in black Walk as being safe 1:17:22.360 --> 1:17:24.880 and they're going to help us. If I need something, 1:17:24.960 --> 1:17:28.160 I can go to them. And that's the whole purpose 1:17:28.200 --> 1:17:32.760 of community defenses. Having Michael would be to have everyone 1:17:33.000 --> 1:17:36.920 be that person. Uh. Now, the other thing I would wonder, 1:17:36.960 --> 1:17:40.240 because it's I you know, I've spent a lot of 1:17:40.240 --> 1:17:43.400 time at black block protests, but generally in Portland, Oregon, 1:17:43.439 --> 1:17:47.160 where a hot day is like eighty degrees, UM, y'all 1:17:47.200 --> 1:17:50.960 are in fucking DFW UM. Those those summers are no joke. 1:17:51.120 --> 1:17:53.800 And wearing the gear that y'all are wearing is is 1:17:54.200 --> 1:17:57.800 UM a potentially dangerous thing? Right? Like? Was there was there? 1:17:58.040 --> 1:18:00.360 Was it kind of individual or left up to infinity 1:18:00.400 --> 1:18:02.559 groups to like figure out hydration and stuff, or did 1:18:02.600 --> 1:18:05.080 you have people who are kind of watching folks and 1:18:05.120 --> 1:18:07.240 reminding them and like trying to ensure that like that 1:18:07.280 --> 1:18:08.960 part of it was handled. Because that does strike me 1:18:09.000 --> 1:18:11.800 as a specific risk in this case. Most of us 1:18:12.000 --> 1:18:16.360 do have UM at least minor street medic training UM, 1:18:16.400 --> 1:18:19.240 as well as our own hydration kits, and we all 1:18:19.320 --> 1:18:23.599 carry extra electrolytes and things like that for people who 1:18:23.640 --> 1:18:26.040 may not be part of our group who may also 1:18:26.080 --> 1:18:29.639 need assistance. UM. That's a big part of it here 1:18:29.720 --> 1:18:32.760 in Texas is that's that's the main risk with protesting 1:18:32.760 --> 1:18:37.880 in the summer is dehydration, heat exhaustion, he stroke. You know, 1:18:38.000 --> 1:18:40.679 we do recommend that the people who are in black 1:18:40.720 --> 1:18:46.280 blog where moisture within loose layers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Marino 1:18:46.479 --> 1:18:48.880 is your friend if you can get it, Yeah, exactly. 1:18:49.960 --> 1:18:53.160 But you know, we all of us are you know, 1:18:53.200 --> 1:18:56.160 at least trained enough to recognize those symptoms. We make 1:18:56.240 --> 1:18:59.759 scenes that we can pass out to people, UM about 1:18:59.800 --> 1:19:03.400 how to protest safely in the summer, in the heat specifically. 1:19:04.000 --> 1:19:08.080 That's great, much more dangerous. Now. One of the things 1:19:08.120 --> 1:19:10.479 I've been seeing recently, and this is I'm guessing from 1:19:10.479 --> 1:19:13.160 a more recent march, was that the photo going around 1:19:13.160 --> 1:19:15.880 that's kind of kind of viral on right wing social 1:19:15.920 --> 1:19:19.360 media of UM. It's a black and white photo. There's 1:19:19.680 --> 1:19:22.960 uh an individual UM with a plate carrier and an 1:19:22.960 --> 1:19:26.479 a r UM and another individual with UM like a 1:19:26.560 --> 1:19:29.400 chest rig and what I think is a baretta um 1:19:29.520 --> 1:19:33.760 carbine um and uh, both of them are at a 1:19:33.840 --> 1:19:38.280 reproductive rights march UM. And there's a mix of really 1:19:38.320 --> 1:19:41.760 interesting reactions from the right like on this UM and 1:19:41.920 --> 1:19:44.960 I'm interested in kind of yeah your thoughts there. Yeah, 1:19:44.960 --> 1:19:47.760 so it's it's been really weird. UM. We try to 1:19:47.840 --> 1:19:51.120 track whatever is being posted about us UM. Sometimes they 1:19:51.160 --> 1:19:53.280 can give us intel on people who might want to 1:19:53.280 --> 1:19:56.360 target us UM. But we've been noticing, you know, it's 1:19:56.360 --> 1:20:00.800 like a solid third of right wing comments are kind 1:20:00.800 --> 1:20:03.600 of broadly supportive. I think it really throws them for 1:20:03.600 --> 1:20:09.479 a loop. Um, you know, we we've even seen people saying, actually, 1:20:09.520 --> 1:20:12.599 bodily autonomy is a lot like gun rights and things 1:20:12.640 --> 1:20:18.880 like that, and it's been really weird. I think, um, 1:20:18.920 --> 1:20:21.559 being armed might kind of humanize us for some of 1:20:21.560 --> 1:20:24.639 those people in a way. It's been a weird thing. 1:20:26.040 --> 1:20:28.120 I have thought a couple of times that, I mean 1:20:28.120 --> 1:20:29.720 a number of times. I talked about this on the 1:20:29.720 --> 1:20:31.400 first season of It could Happen here. I think that 1:20:31.880 --> 1:20:35.360 there is some potential to bridge some divides there with 1:20:35.560 --> 1:20:38.120 kind of the existence of of a of an increasingly 1:20:38.120 --> 1:20:39.920 prominent left wing gun culture. You know. One of the 1:20:39.960 --> 1:20:43.759 comments I saw was somebody like going through the gear 1:20:43.960 --> 1:20:46.160 display and be like, actually, no, they're they're reasonably well 1:20:46.160 --> 1:20:48.280 set up, and like everything seems like this is this 1:20:48.360 --> 1:20:50.719 is exactly how you'd you know, want to have it done, 1:20:50.760 --> 1:20:54.479 and just people being like actually appreciative. And I guess 1:20:54.520 --> 1:20:57.040 maybe there's a degree to which, like if you're if 1:20:57.040 --> 1:20:59.160 you're in that community from a right wing side but 1:20:59.240 --> 1:21:02.400 not like a straight up fascist side, maybe there's a 1:21:02.400 --> 1:21:05.280 potential for like more commonality and like you said, the 1:21:05.320 --> 1:21:08.439 idea that like, oh maybe some of them will actually 1:21:08.760 --> 1:21:12.360 broaden their support for reproductive rights, um, you know, or 1:21:12.360 --> 1:21:14.360 at least consider it. You know, I don't know that 1:21:14.360 --> 1:21:16.160 that doesn't strike me as like a negative move and 1:21:16.200 --> 1:21:21.760 it it um, particularly in a place like Texas, you 1:21:21.880 --> 1:21:25.400 have to try to at least um have some sort 1:21:25.439 --> 1:21:27.439 of common ground with people who are are more on 1:21:27.479 --> 1:21:28.920 the right wing side of things, because they're so damn 1:21:28.960 --> 1:21:32.600 many of them. Yeah, so I think, um, it's one 1:21:32.640 --> 1:21:36.720 of those cases where when ideological where when ideology gets 1:21:36.720 --> 1:21:40.320 atomized to just like guns good, you know, that is 1:21:40.320 --> 1:21:43.680 like a core belief for some people. Um, that can 1:21:43.760 --> 1:21:47.439 draw them to being supportive of pro choice marches in 1:21:47.479 --> 1:21:49.960 a in a weird way. It's it's kind of a 1:21:50.000 --> 1:21:54.720 pretty specific kind of brain worms. But seeing it a lot, Yeah, 1:21:54.720 --> 1:21:57.280 I wouldn't like call it necessarily a positive like it's 1:21:57.280 --> 1:21:59.479 a it's an aspect of things that are negative, but 1:21:59.520 --> 1:22:03.000 it's something that also can be like useful and and 1:22:03.120 --> 1:22:06.679 potentially positive. Like even though if you get into what's 1:22:06.760 --> 1:22:09.599 leading someone to like, oh, I really I re examined 1:22:09.600 --> 1:22:12.240 my beliefs on reproductive rights because I saw some people 1:22:12.280 --> 1:22:15.840 marching with guns. That's not like a sign of of 1:22:16.160 --> 1:22:18.280 a series of thought process that I think is like 1:22:18.360 --> 1:22:22.360 wildly positive. But at least somebody maybe came around on 1:22:22.439 --> 1:22:29.200 something better than going the other way. You know, we've 1:22:29.240 --> 1:22:32.559 been talking about the effects of getting all this right 1:22:32.560 --> 1:22:36.639 wing attention and uh, you know, in a way, that's 1:22:36.680 --> 1:22:39.320 what we want. We want to advertise that we have 1:22:40.120 --> 1:22:43.120 strong community defense, and on the flip side, you get 1:22:43.120 --> 1:22:46.200 all these supportive comments and hopefully those people don't want 1:22:46.200 --> 1:22:51.800 to kill me anymore. So it's it's just positive. We think, Yeah, 1:22:51.880 --> 1:22:53.639 you're I mean, one of the ways in which these 1:22:53.680 --> 1:22:56.880 kind of protests can increase security for a community, Like 1:22:56.960 --> 1:22:59.080 one way is that maybe there are people who will 1:22:59.120 --> 1:23:02.320 get scared off because they don't want to risk getting shot. 1:23:02.760 --> 1:23:04.600 And the other is that maybe some people will re 1:23:04.720 --> 1:23:07.240 examine their opinions on that community because it's now more 1:23:07.240 --> 1:23:10.519 familiar to them because there probably way too into guns. 1:23:10.560 --> 1:23:16.360 But yeah, absolutely, so let's talk about um. There there 1:23:16.439 --> 1:23:19.280 was a specific action um that kind of the thing 1:23:19.320 --> 1:23:22.160 that was going around on Twitter was these proud boys 1:23:22.160 --> 1:23:23.799 trying to get into it, believe it was a library, 1:23:23.840 --> 1:23:25.960 and like a line of parents squaring off with them 1:23:25.960 --> 1:23:29.200 to like stop them. Um. Can we talk a little 1:23:29.200 --> 1:23:33.080 bit about that. Yeah, that was in McKinney. Um. It 1:23:33.240 --> 1:23:37.200 was the day after through V. Wade got overturned, And 1:23:38.160 --> 1:23:41.400 we honestly didn't know what to expect when we got 1:23:41.439 --> 1:23:43.680 there because of McKinny. We were like, are we going 1:23:43.720 --> 1:23:49.320 to be very much so outnumbered in this? And when 1:23:49.320 --> 1:23:53.559 we arrived there was already about thirty to forty people 1:23:53.640 --> 1:23:56.840 who were either parents or friends of the library there 1:23:57.040 --> 1:24:01.200 in support and maybe only the teen or twenty people 1:24:01.240 --> 1:24:04.439 in opposition. Um. So it was, you know, a pretty 1:24:04.439 --> 1:24:09.920 good welcoming, supportive environment. Um. And about thirty minutes after 1:24:10.000 --> 1:24:13.320 we got there is when the Proud Boys arrived, and 1:24:13.360 --> 1:24:16.440 we just really only had to tell two people, hey, 1:24:16.520 --> 1:24:21.320 they're Proud Boys. And before I before we couldn't even 1:24:21.320 --> 1:24:24.360 get over there to like block them off ourselves. There 1:24:24.360 --> 1:24:28.960 were like eight to ten soccer moms in their flip flops, 1:24:29.040 --> 1:24:33.120 Nike shorts and handmade signs standing in front of them 1:24:33.160 --> 1:24:36.800 and blocking them from coming any closer. Um. And of 1:24:36.800 --> 1:24:40.040 course they did get closer as people were leaving the 1:24:40.120 --> 1:24:42.800 library and the event was ending and things like that. 1:24:42.960 --> 1:24:45.760 But it was one of those things where it just 1:24:46.000 --> 1:24:51.240 organically happened, and it was it was beautiful, like in 1:24:51.000 --> 1:24:53.800 in a place like McKinney of all places, like I 1:24:53.840 --> 1:24:57.479 gw up in North Texas, like place I would expect 1:24:57.920 --> 1:25:02.000 to find, like a soccer mom in Nike shorts asked like, 1:25:02.080 --> 1:25:07.800 thanking me for bringing my gun to the library. Yeah, 1:25:08.080 --> 1:25:10.559 that's that's wonderful to hear. I mean, and I people 1:25:10.560 --> 1:25:12.559 who are not in the d F w U area 1:25:12.680 --> 1:25:14.960 won't understand this, but like, yeah, I spent a significant 1:25:15.000 --> 1:25:16.960 chunk of my early life in McKinney, and I would 1:25:16.960 --> 1:25:21.799 not have expected that reaction there. Um, yeah, that's really 1:25:21.840 --> 1:25:24.800 really good to hear. And it also is you know, 1:25:24.800 --> 1:25:28.080 I'm I'm. I obviously have been supportive of a number 1:25:28.080 --> 1:25:31.040 of tactics to confront fascism, including people showing up in 1:25:31.080 --> 1:25:34.560 block and stuff and and protesting or or or confronting 1:25:34.560 --> 1:25:37.599 them physically. But I don't think there's any more durable 1:25:37.720 --> 1:25:40.760 kind of community self defense than than that, than than 1:25:40.960 --> 1:25:44.280 a than a group of people who are just kind 1:25:44.320 --> 1:25:48.120 of live in an area and around and curious, realizing 1:25:48.160 --> 1:25:51.679 there's a threat and immediately acting against it. Like that's 1:25:51.720 --> 1:25:56.080 such a that's such a powerful thing. Yeah, saying no, 1:25:56.240 --> 1:26:00.200 not in my neighborhood. And you know, again, like we 1:26:00.280 --> 1:26:04.000 didn't expect to have that reaction, which made it that 1:26:04.160 --> 1:26:07.400 much better when we saw it. And you know, having 1:26:07.680 --> 1:26:11.000 those people for the first time in their life maybe 1:26:11.080 --> 1:26:16.160 even can face to face correctly with fascists probably has 1:26:16.240 --> 1:26:19.120 a lasting impact on them as well. Like I hope 1:26:19.160 --> 1:26:21.519 that they keep going to more events like that and 1:26:21.600 --> 1:26:24.920 keep going and protecting their community from these people. Now, 1:26:25.080 --> 1:26:26.680 let me ask you, when you have these kind of 1:26:26.680 --> 1:26:30.040 interactions with folks, and when you had these specific interactions 1:26:30.040 --> 1:26:33.280 with those specific folks, is there kind of is there 1:26:33.280 --> 1:26:36.479 sort of an information spreading thing afterwards? Is they're like, hey, 1:26:36.560 --> 1:26:38.479 here's who we are, and like where you can find 1:26:38.479 --> 1:26:41.559 out more about us? Um, like kind of attempts to 1:26:42.960 --> 1:26:44.519 like let people know who you are and what you're 1:26:44.520 --> 1:26:47.160 doing and how they can you know, follow you and whatnot. 1:26:47.200 --> 1:26:50.000 Like is that a is that is that a part 1:26:50.040 --> 1:26:51.760 of the activism or was it more just like we're 1:26:51.760 --> 1:26:54.360 showing up to kind of provide a barrier for these 1:26:54.360 --> 1:26:56.120 people and like that's not this is not the time 1:26:56.200 --> 1:26:59.320 or place for that. It's a little bit of both. Um. 1:27:00.120 --> 1:27:04.360 A lot of these actions we are invited to. We 1:27:04.439 --> 1:27:07.360 have kind of made it a point to be known 1:27:07.600 --> 1:27:11.360 as we are here to help UM. So a lot 1:27:11.360 --> 1:27:14.080 of times we will get invited or people will send 1:27:14.160 --> 1:27:17.080 us an event and we will We do usually try 1:27:17.120 --> 1:27:19.799 to get in touch with you ever's organizing the event 1:27:20.280 --> 1:27:22.840 to make sure that they are comfortable with us, either 1:27:23.280 --> 1:27:26.120 open carrying or what they prefers to can still carry 1:27:26.280 --> 1:27:31.080 and things like that, UM, because it is still necessary 1:27:31.080 --> 1:27:36.160 to be polite UM. But then also when we do, 1:27:36.439 --> 1:27:39.880 we always meet people at these actions who are wanting 1:27:39.880 --> 1:27:42.880 to get more involved than just that one time, and 1:27:42.920 --> 1:27:46.800 we do have ways for them to get involved in 1:27:46.840 --> 1:27:51.840 their community and learn from us. Obviously, Dallas is um 1:27:51.920 --> 1:27:54.160 It's nickname for a long time has been the City 1:27:54.160 --> 1:27:57.439 of Hate UM, and it is a place that is 1:27:57.720 --> 1:28:00.639 I mean the city itself is fairly blue, but there 1:28:00.720 --> 1:28:03.160 is I mean, even within the Dallas area proper a 1:28:03.160 --> 1:28:06.679 tremendous amount of people who are like extremely conservative. Obviously, 1:28:06.760 --> 1:28:08.479 I mean we I don't want to be harping on 1:28:08.520 --> 1:28:11.599 this too much, but is there a degree to which 1:28:11.600 --> 1:28:14.840 you are concerned about like attempts at at infiltration and 1:28:14.880 --> 1:28:18.200 whatnot or attempts to yeah, like kind of like you know, 1:28:18.439 --> 1:28:20.760 to do sort of the the fascist equivalent of what 1:28:20.800 --> 1:28:22.759 a lot of anti fascists do with right wing groups. 1:28:23.439 --> 1:28:26.120 There is a lot of concern about that. UM. We 1:28:26.240 --> 1:28:28.080 just you know, we do the best we can. We 1:28:28.080 --> 1:28:32.160 think we've done a pretty good job already, clearly very 1:28:32.200 --> 1:28:36.720 careful with um, you know, who were who were in 1:28:36.800 --> 1:28:39.760 contact with, who were working with UM. We've had to 1:28:40.760 --> 1:28:44.240 you know, stop working with abusers a few times. That 1:28:44.400 --> 1:28:47.920 is a tough one. We don't expand nearly as much 1:28:47.920 --> 1:28:51.120 as we could given all the people who want to 1:28:51.200 --> 1:28:55.559 be part of this particular group. We believe more in 1:28:56.320 --> 1:29:00.559 you know, many strong groups and uh try to help 1:29:00.600 --> 1:29:07.000 people do that. Um. But yeah, it's a tough struggle. Yeah, 1:29:07.000 --> 1:29:09.200 I mean that's a that's an interesting because I think 1:29:09.200 --> 1:29:12.080 maybe a better question for me to ask is is 1:29:12.120 --> 1:29:14.680 not like, how do you avoid that? But how do 1:29:14.720 --> 1:29:17.639 you avoid like? Because because the if you look back 1:29:17.640 --> 1:29:19.559 at the actual history of co Intel pro right and 1:29:19.560 --> 1:29:22.200 the ship that like Hoover and his his goons were 1:29:22.400 --> 1:29:25.280 saying to each other, like, the goal was not to 1:29:25.439 --> 1:29:28.559 infiltrate every left wing movement. The goal was to make 1:29:28.600 --> 1:29:31.800 people be so afraid of infiltration that they weren't able 1:29:31.840 --> 1:29:35.240 to effectively organize, and so that that is I guess 1:29:35.320 --> 1:29:38.040 kind of the real trick is this. Obviously there's a 1:29:38.080 --> 1:29:39.639 degree to which you want to be on your guard. 1:29:39.640 --> 1:29:41.600 You need to be careful. It's it's it's important to 1:29:41.600 --> 1:29:44.800 be not just ethical, but but like responsible in your 1:29:44.800 --> 1:29:48.040 op set. But you also can't let like fear of 1:29:48.080 --> 1:29:51.000 that sort of thing happening just because you're you know, 1:29:51.400 --> 1:29:53.840 kind of surrounded in a place like North Texas. You 1:29:53.840 --> 1:29:57.400 can't let that fear stop you from from trying, right. 1:29:58.000 --> 1:30:01.160 I think a big part of that is it goes 1:30:01.240 --> 1:30:05.040 back to the trust thing. You know, we don't really 1:30:06.200 --> 1:30:10.800 let people into the close folds until they've come to 1:30:10.920 --> 1:30:14.519 a few actions with us and they've you know, proven 1:30:14.560 --> 1:30:17.519 that they're not you know, spilling the beans all over 1:30:17.560 --> 1:30:21.320 Twitter and yeah that you know, um, we know who 1:30:21.360 --> 1:30:24.400 they are and know what they're about, and then we 1:30:24.439 --> 1:30:27.559 involved them a little bit more. Um. It's all about 1:30:27.600 --> 1:30:30.080 building that trust with the people you're working with. It 1:30:30.160 --> 1:30:32.880 just goes right back to that is you know, trust 1:30:33.040 --> 1:30:36.559 is built over time, um, And the longer we all 1:30:36.600 --> 1:30:39.200 know each other, the more we trust each other, and 1:30:39.240 --> 1:30:42.640 then you know, we are able to have those conversations 1:30:42.680 --> 1:30:46.360 about welcoming more people in and um, you know, setting 1:30:46.400 --> 1:30:50.400 up the processes for that now has just on a 1:30:50.400 --> 1:30:54.719 logistical standpoint, that kind of notoriety i'll have have gained 1:30:54.760 --> 1:30:57.280 because of some of these actions. Has it sort of 1:30:57.360 --> 1:31:01.040 led to like difficulty in terms of we were dealing 1:31:01.080 --> 1:31:03.280 with like so many much interest, so many people reaching 1:31:03.280 --> 1:31:05.200 out to us, like how do you how do you 1:31:05.200 --> 1:31:08.360 actually like organize kind of that, like how you how 1:31:08.400 --> 1:31:11.439 you respond to people when ship goes viral? You know, 1:31:11.560 --> 1:31:15.000 I I know how overwhelming that can be. Yeah, that's 1:31:15.000 --> 1:31:19.000 been pretty new to us. Um. We've been more used 1:31:19.040 --> 1:31:22.719 to being kind of your local crew that does things 1:31:22.720 --> 1:31:26.320 no one ever talks about. And uh, having a larger 1:31:26.360 --> 1:31:30.800 profile now is a challenge because we do know, you know, 1:31:31.720 --> 1:31:36.520 attracting a lot more attention you know, put some constraints 1:31:36.560 --> 1:31:39.200 on us. Um, but I think that goes back to 1:31:39.240 --> 1:31:41.479 why it's important to have a lot of different groups 1:31:41.560 --> 1:31:44.160 doing a lot of different stuff. Um. You know, you 1:31:44.200 --> 1:31:49.240 can't just have one uh group, uh doing all the 1:31:49.360 --> 1:31:51.360 organizing that needs to be done in an area. It's 1:31:51.400 --> 1:31:55.559 just a bad idea. You know, if a group gets 1:31:55.560 --> 1:31:58.960 taken out for a variety of reasons you don't want 1:31:58.960 --> 1:32:02.320 everything to fall apart. Yeah, so I guess kind of 1:32:02.640 --> 1:32:04.920 as we come to probably close to the end of 1:32:04.920 --> 1:32:06.519 this where there were there are things that I didn't 1:32:06.520 --> 1:32:08.360 get into that you wanted to talk to about what 1:32:08.439 --> 1:32:11.120 y'all are doing and kind of what you want other 1:32:11.160 --> 1:32:13.920 people know, particularly folks who I don't know we're in 1:32:13.920 --> 1:32:17.280 in Louisville or and you know, fucking Idabelle, Oklahoma, and 1:32:17.560 --> 1:32:22.759 UM kind of want to feel want to build UM 1:32:22.880 --> 1:32:26.240 or at least help to help to protect their community 1:32:26.640 --> 1:32:32.719 in a place that UM, there's additional challenges in doing so. Yeah, 1:32:32.960 --> 1:32:36.280 I've seen that recurring events no matter what it is, 1:32:36.439 --> 1:32:39.600 you know, book club distribution, if there's a place that 1:32:39.640 --> 1:32:42.960 people can find you regularly, that's a great way to 1:32:43.040 --> 1:32:44.960 have the kind of people you want to meet, you know, 1:32:45.080 --> 1:32:49.559 just just walk up and talk to you, UM for 1:32:49.600 --> 1:32:51.639 me what you know, watching your ops set and also 1:32:51.680 --> 1:32:54.920 compartmentalizing your information, like if I don't need to know something, 1:32:54.920 --> 1:32:57.640 I don't want to know it, UM, And that's a 1:32:57.680 --> 1:33:01.719 good way to stay safe while also you know, being 1:33:01.760 --> 1:33:05.559 able to organize and take action because like you said earlier, 1:33:05.880 --> 1:33:08.200 the most important thing is the will to do something. 1:33:08.600 --> 1:33:11.000 If you're just you know, the safest thing you can 1:33:11.040 --> 1:33:14.280 do is stay in your basement, but then no one 1:33:14.280 --> 1:33:18.240 will do anything. Yeah, exactly right. Um, was there anything 1:33:18.280 --> 1:33:20.240 else either of you all wanted to get into. I 1:33:20.240 --> 1:33:22.800 guess I also want to plug passing on training. So 1:33:22.840 --> 1:33:28.639 whatever skills you have, we've taught, um medical stuff, how 1:33:28.680 --> 1:33:32.959 to do an oil change, um, how to fire gun stuff, 1:33:33.120 --> 1:33:37.559 martial arts you know, unarmed fighting is also important. Um, 1:33:38.880 --> 1:33:41.519 share knowledge with each other, you know, make each other 1:33:41.560 --> 1:33:45.519 more powerful in that way. Yeah, that is a I 1:33:45.640 --> 1:33:47.800 think a great line to end on. Um, thank you 1:33:47.840 --> 1:33:52.160 everybody else and um yeah, um you can check out. Actually, 1:33:52.200 --> 1:33:55.880 you guys want to plug your your your socials, you 1:33:55.880 --> 1:33:59.360 could follow me at bubble break on Twitter and um 1:34:00.479 --> 1:34:02.799 it's kind of out now, but you can follow Anarco 1:34:02.880 --> 1:34:09.720 air softest we have trained on there excellent, and then 1:34:09.760 --> 1:34:13.599 of course, uh Domeport John Brown Gun Club on pretty 1:34:13.680 --> 1:34:19.439 much all platforms currently. Yeah. I never got into TikTok 1:34:19.520 --> 1:34:40.479 either one of these days. All right, everybody, that's the episode. 1:34:41.560 --> 1:34:53.559 What uh inspiring networks of violent accelerationism my nihilistic loss 1:34:53.600 --> 1:35:00.600 of faith in the possibility of human progress, And I 1:35:00.600 --> 1:35:02.200 don't I don't. I don't know. That's probably not a 1:35:02.240 --> 1:35:05.080 good way to Yeah, I'd be like that sometimes, Garrison, 1:35:05.200 --> 1:35:06.760 what are we What are we talking about today? This 1:35:06.800 --> 1:35:09.639 is it could happen here podcast, Bad Things, World falling apart. 1:35:09.760 --> 1:35:12.240 There's just been a big shooting in Boston. You probably 1:35:12.280 --> 1:35:21.439 about Chicago, not Boston. Boston, not Boston, not this. I 1:35:21.479 --> 1:35:23.920 was thinking about the Boston bombing. Oh, there we go. 1:35:24.280 --> 1:35:27.000 It's also not really in Chicago. We should know. It's 1:35:27.040 --> 1:35:32.280 like thirty right, Yeah, yeah, it's like it's it's it's 1:35:32.320 --> 1:35:35.479 it's a it's a northern suburb. Yeah, it's like it's 1:35:36.000 --> 1:35:38.400 and yeah, because I've heard a bunch of people say 1:35:38.439 --> 1:35:40.960 it's like a super rich neighborhood, and then I've heard 1:35:41.000 --> 1:35:43.360 other Chicago folks say that, like, no, it's like an 1:35:43.400 --> 1:35:47.080 upper middle class neighborhood that used to be richer. And anyway, whatever, 1:35:47.160 --> 1:35:52.080 it's not like Chicago that and yeah, we'll be talking 1:35:52.120 --> 1:35:56.200 about it because it's It is an incident that fits 1:35:56.280 --> 1:36:01.240 within a pattern of behavior that very few people understand 1:36:01.320 --> 1:36:05.280 nor really prepared to think about. And it's part of 1:36:05.320 --> 1:36:08.960 why is because if you actually understand what's going on 1:36:09.000 --> 1:36:12.240 with this shooting, there is no political utility in what happened. 1:36:12.760 --> 1:36:14.200 Um And I mean that the number of ways there 1:36:14.280 --> 1:36:17.200 is no if you are someone who is supportive of 1:36:17.840 --> 1:36:21.240 more stringent gun control, there is not political utility in 1:36:21.240 --> 1:36:23.160 the shooting for a number of reasons, including the fact 1:36:23.200 --> 1:36:25.120 that Illinois has strict gun laws, and while a lot 1:36:25.160 --> 1:36:27.120 of Illinois gun crime has to do with weapons that 1:36:27.160 --> 1:36:29.280 coming from other states, he bought his legally in the 1:36:29.320 --> 1:36:32.360 state of Illinois. Um. And even though like this guy 1:36:32.479 --> 1:36:34.960 was on police radar, he had made threats before they 1:36:35.000 --> 1:36:38.000 had confiscated all of his knives, and he's still allowed 1:36:38.040 --> 1:36:40.400 to buy guns, even though Illinois has a red flag 1:36:40.479 --> 1:36:43.599 law that very easily if you can confiscate demands knives 1:36:43.600 --> 1:36:45.920 they could have confiscated, has stopped him from buying guns 1:36:45.960 --> 1:36:47.960 or whatever. Plenty of laws on the books to have 1:36:48.080 --> 1:36:51.360 stopped this. And it's useless in a left right political 1:36:51.439 --> 1:36:54.800 sense of the word, because there are this guy does 1:36:54.840 --> 1:36:57.639 not graph onto any of that I have. I think 1:36:57.640 --> 1:37:00.439 it is there's a value and kind of putting out 1:37:00.439 --> 1:37:02.919 some of the Trump imagery he's put on only because 1:37:03.320 --> 1:37:06.800 the right has immediately left on calling him a transgender 1:37:06.840 --> 1:37:10.000 anti for shooter. And I guess in terms of a 1:37:10.040 --> 1:37:12.439 social media thing, sharing him draped in a Trump flag 1:37:12.520 --> 1:37:15.280 is the quickest way to like rebut that, but that 1:37:15.360 --> 1:37:18.320 doesn't mean he's not it's it's not not for actually 1:37:18.520 --> 1:37:26.479 understanding what's going on. Yeah, there's very this is it's 1:37:26.760 --> 1:37:29.800 it's in a pattern of shootings that are becoming more 1:37:29.840 --> 1:37:33.240 common the past few years. We saw it at the 1:37:33.840 --> 1:37:36.839 UH there's a school shooting last like October or November 1:37:37.400 --> 1:37:41.640 that the shooter had a very similar profile. Um, and 1:37:41.680 --> 1:37:46.400 it's a it's a part of this growing online trend 1:37:47.680 --> 1:37:53.520 using imagery related to mental illness too encourage and justify 1:37:54.840 --> 1:38:00.599 mass acts of violence in some rebellion from how our 1:38:00.600 --> 1:38:04.200 regular society is structured and how people usually think of reality. 1:38:04.600 --> 1:38:08.000 So it's it's something that we generally people who spent 1:38:08.040 --> 1:38:11.320 a lot of time researching this, myself included trying to 1:38:11.360 --> 1:38:13.600 be very careful about how we talk about this, right 1:38:13.640 --> 1:38:16.120 because we we don't want the wrong things boosted. But 1:38:16.200 --> 1:38:19.599 also everyone just being in the dark isn't great either, Right, 1:38:19.720 --> 1:38:22.679 That's that's frustrating. Right, if people are curious, they want 1:38:22.720 --> 1:38:26.000 us start to look stuff up, and it's better that 1:38:26.520 --> 1:38:29.080 they have someone who knows what they're talking about explaining 1:38:29.120 --> 1:38:31.320 to them then then just have them being the wild 1:38:31.320 --> 1:38:34.879 West of the Internet on site image boards or forms 1:38:35.000 --> 1:38:40.040 learning about these nonsense propaganda styles. There's there's a few 1:38:40.080 --> 1:38:42.760 things that are unique about this guy. I mean, he 1:38:42.960 --> 1:38:45.439 was not only making the propaganda, but he also did 1:38:45.600 --> 1:38:48.880 he also did a violet act that is actually more 1:38:48.960 --> 1:38:52.080 unique than usual. Usually the people who are involved in 1:38:52.160 --> 1:38:54.800 making this type of propaganda that he was making, he 1:38:54.840 --> 1:38:58.960 made YouTube videos, music, he he was he was very 1:38:59.000 --> 1:39:01.840 prolific in what he was putting out content wise into 1:39:01.840 --> 1:39:04.960 the Internet. And usually the people who put stuff out 1:39:05.000 --> 1:39:08.639 in this style of propaganda and this style of like 1:39:08.760 --> 1:39:14.479 of a very very like meme driven violent mental illness 1:39:14.880 --> 1:39:19.479 fetishization subcultures, they don't generally the people who make the 1:39:19.520 --> 1:39:22.160 stuff don't go and do the stuff. This is what 1:39:22.240 --> 1:39:26.080 instance where this this did happen. So that's actually unique 1:39:26.120 --> 1:39:28.080 for a few reasons. Yeah, I mean, I think one 1:39:28.120 --> 1:39:30.640 of the things that's interesting about that is that and 1:39:30.680 --> 1:39:34.120 this is something that has not been discussed nearly as 1:39:34.160 --> 1:39:35.519 much as I think it ought to have. In the 1:39:35.520 --> 1:39:38.000 wake of the shooting, this guy basically released an a 1:39:38.160 --> 1:39:40.080 r G at the same time as he carried out 1:39:40.080 --> 1:39:42.000 his shooting, Like we're basically we're going to get to that. 1:39:42.479 --> 1:39:45.040 I mean because in some ways this is a really 1:39:45.040 --> 1:39:48.280 good explanation, not explanation. This is really an example of 1:39:48.680 --> 1:39:55.599 the post manifesto, like post manifesto terrorism UM, where there's 1:39:55.640 --> 1:39:59.880 not there's not a written manifesto. It's someone's entire all 1:40:00.080 --> 1:40:05.599 line presence and their entire online documentation is is that 1:40:05.600 --> 1:40:10.200 that serves as their manifesto. The whole image of them online, 1:40:10.320 --> 1:40:13.920 everything they've put out, it represents the thing that they 1:40:14.000 --> 1:40:17.320 want spread. It's people these types of people are are 1:40:17.400 --> 1:40:20.479 less likely to write, you know, like a ten page 1:40:20.520 --> 1:40:23.839 thing about how about why they hate X minority. Instead, 1:40:24.160 --> 1:40:28.480 they're gonna leave piles and piles of clues and puzzle pieces, 1:40:28.720 --> 1:40:33.240 music videos and content that lead people into what they 1:40:33.280 --> 1:40:36.640 want to project as their mental state to be. UM. 1:40:36.680 --> 1:40:38.920 So it's like everything is and everything is part of 1:40:38.960 --> 1:40:42.719 what they want to put out. Yeah, and I think both. 1:40:42.880 --> 1:40:46.479 You can see the act itself, the shooting itself as 1:40:46.560 --> 1:40:49.960 an attempt to spread the art that he was making 1:40:50.000 --> 1:40:52.280 and to spread this like profile that he had built. 1:40:52.280 --> 1:40:54.959 There's a reason why that logo that he had for himself, 1:40:55.760 --> 1:40:58.840 UM was all over everything there's a reason why unique logo, 1:40:59.240 --> 1:41:02.439 very unique. Ago. He put out some of the videos, 1:41:02.439 --> 1:41:05.360 one from ten months ago showed the location he's believed 1:41:05.360 --> 1:41:08.000 to have started shooting from. It looks like, um, so 1:41:08.040 --> 1:41:10.479 he was planning this for a while, and he I 1:41:10.520 --> 1:41:13.160 think this was this was meant both as almost as 1:41:13.160 --> 1:41:15.840 like an advertising campaign for this guy's EP, if you 1:41:15.840 --> 1:41:17.920 want to look at it that way, but in a 1:41:17.960 --> 1:41:21.960 broader sense, like like like it's it's it's it's more 1:41:22.000 --> 1:41:24.439 circular than that. Right. He wasn't just trying to spread 1:41:24.479 --> 1:41:26.880 his stuff, but he was trying to spread his stuff 1:41:26.880 --> 1:41:29.920 in this this imagery and branding that he had created 1:41:29.960 --> 1:41:32.400 for himself and in order to put other people in 1:41:32.439 --> 1:41:34.720 that same mind state. It was. It was also very 1:41:34.760 --> 1:41:38.360 personal to him. Um, he's I've spent the past few 1:41:38.360 --> 1:41:44.440 hours watching watching hours of the stuff that he's put out. Um, 1:41:44.479 --> 1:41:48.440 and I mean he's there's there's videos that he's animated 1:41:48.560 --> 1:41:52.479 of him doing a suicide by cop. Um, there's there's 1:41:52.640 --> 1:41:55.960 music videos he's made about doing a school shooting. Um. 1:41:56.000 --> 1:41:58.080 These are these are d as and Pot has been 1:41:58.080 --> 1:42:01.120 grappling with for a long time and he finally did 1:42:01.160 --> 1:42:04.439 the thing. I'm I'm unsure currently if he always knew 1:42:04.479 --> 1:42:05.640 that he was going to do this or if he 1:42:05.640 --> 1:42:08.599 was actually trying to fight it now that's that's honestly 1:42:08.640 --> 1:42:11.400 not even worth debating because it's not useful to what's 1:42:11.439 --> 1:42:15.120 going on because he did it, because because he didn't. 1:42:15.240 --> 1:42:17.240 But we've had you can see the types of stuff 1:42:17.240 --> 1:42:19.040 he's been putting out, Like yes, the string that he 1:42:19.080 --> 1:42:23.400 did the shooting on, he has a long, along zooming 1:42:23.439 --> 1:42:26.400 clip of that same street in videos that was posted 1:42:26.600 --> 1:42:30.200 like over a year ago. Um, he's been he's been 1:42:30.240 --> 1:42:32.280 thinking in this way for a long time. This isn't 1:42:32.320 --> 1:42:35.080 like a fast radicalization. This is someone who has been 1:42:35.120 --> 1:42:40.400 heavily steeped in very very small niche online some cultures 1:42:40.400 --> 1:42:42.439 for a long time. Like the guy is twenty two 1:42:42.520 --> 1:42:45.800 years old, he's he's had his Twitter account since two 1:42:45.800 --> 1:42:51.000 thousand eleven. He's been online so much. Um, it's deeply 1:42:51.040 --> 1:42:57.560 online person, deeply alienated, uh, socially isolated, uh, deeply like disassociative. 1:42:58.160 --> 1:43:00.439 And this is this is by the way, can assistant 1:43:00.479 --> 1:43:03.280 with what his friends have said, consistent with what people 1:43:03.320 --> 1:43:06.080 who knew him and worked with him and put music 1:43:06.120 --> 1:43:09.639 and albums together with him have have repeatedly. A number 1:43:09.640 --> 1:43:11.600 of them at this point come out and said variations 1:43:11.600 --> 1:43:15.559 of like, yeah, man, he he got like really weird, 1:43:15.960 --> 1:43:17.640 like it was it not not like and not in 1:43:17.680 --> 1:43:19.479 the way that like, oh he got super into que 1:43:19.640 --> 1:43:22.639 or like he became a Nazi, but like he got 1:43:22.680 --> 1:43:25.360 weird in a way I didn't understand and I stopped 1:43:25.360 --> 1:43:28.280 associating with he got he got detached from parts of 1:43:28.560 --> 1:43:30.720 of like modern reality in ways that are really hard 1:43:30.720 --> 1:43:33.559 for people to understand. Um, and I think it's it 1:43:33.640 --> 1:43:36.400 is important to emphasize just that the deeply online nature 1:43:36.400 --> 1:43:38.360 of this he he had. He made a whole music 1:43:38.439 --> 1:43:41.880 video titled I Rely on the Internet, um that you 1:43:42.360 --> 1:43:45.040 can't find anywhere, so that don't even try to love 1:43:45.040 --> 1:43:46.600 of God. You don't need to. You don't need to. 1:43:46.600 --> 1:43:48.559 But like, but it opens, but it opens by him 1:43:48.600 --> 1:43:52.240 saying I get mad when other people are more popular 1:43:52.240 --> 1:43:55.720 than me on the internet. And the mass shooting is 1:43:55.800 --> 1:43:58.200 in line with this, With this style of thinking, right, 1:43:58.240 --> 1:44:01.719 he's he is he is trying to reify himself into 1:44:01.720 --> 1:44:04.880 a into a memetic image to spread around the same 1:44:04.920 --> 1:44:07.280 way many mass shooters try to do this same thing 1:44:07.640 --> 1:44:11.360 that he is doing this extremely intentionally Um, he wants 1:44:11.400 --> 1:44:13.799 to be the thing that represents a very specific idea, 1:44:14.680 --> 1:44:17.320 and I'm it's again we are always trying to be 1:44:17.320 --> 1:44:18.960 carey careful, but like how much we get into this 1:44:18.960 --> 1:44:20.880 because you don't want to boost the wrong thing. But 1:44:21.920 --> 1:44:24.000 it's no one of the important to talk about because 1:44:24.080 --> 1:44:26.040 it's costing a lot of people in their lives, and 1:44:26.360 --> 1:44:28.320 no one really knows how to deal with this problem 1:44:28.400 --> 1:44:31.719 right now. One of the beautiful things about our current 1:44:32.160 --> 1:44:34.960 age is that if you are someone like if you 1:44:35.000 --> 1:44:39.760 are someone who researches terrorism, extremism, violence, particularly in the 1:44:39.760 --> 1:44:42.920 American context, although certainly not exclusively christ Church and the 1:44:42.960 --> 1:44:45.040 whole Germany, I don't need to go into it. But 1:44:45.080 --> 1:44:48.799 if you are someone who focuses on this stuff, um, 1:44:48.800 --> 1:44:51.519 you will repeatedly have the experience of encountering a new 1:44:51.600 --> 1:44:55.880 subculture online or a new trend, a new like species 1:44:55.960 --> 1:45:00.479 of meme and find yourself wondering, like when the shooting 1:45:00.560 --> 1:45:03.519 is going to be? Um. I made a significant chunk 1:45:03.520 --> 1:45:05.559 of my career because I was paying attention to one 1:45:05.600 --> 1:45:08.919 particular group of folks online when they did their shooting. 1:45:09.080 --> 1:45:11.719 And I am not primarily I've not been in the 1:45:11.840 --> 1:45:14.000 you know, We've talked a little bit about schizo wave, 1:45:14.040 --> 1:45:17.200 which is kind of broadly speaking, the thing that this 1:45:17.240 --> 1:45:21.440 guy most embodied. Um that is that is the propaganda 1:45:21.479 --> 1:45:26.519 style which has a bad name. Yes it's obviously we're 1:45:26.560 --> 1:45:29.599 not endorsing its name. This is the style that people 1:45:29.640 --> 1:45:32.240 who are involved in this only community use. It's about 1:45:32.280 --> 1:45:38.879 fetishizing parts, or fetishizing media driven aspects of mental illness 1:45:39.040 --> 1:45:43.439 to encourage violence. It's about obviously mental illness, yes, the 1:45:43.439 --> 1:45:47.120 aesthetics and mental illness. Right, People who are who actually 1:45:47.360 --> 1:45:50.479 you know, deal with mental illnesses are much less likely 1:45:50.680 --> 1:45:53.040 to commit violent acts. They're actually more likely to be 1:45:53.080 --> 1:45:58.000 the recipient of of of violent acts not documented. So 1:45:58.120 --> 1:46:00.280 like this is this is like I think it portant 1:46:00.280 --> 1:46:03.320 to actually get people to like understand because this is 1:46:03.360 --> 1:46:04.680 one of the things that if you look at like 1:46:04.720 --> 1:46:07.160 Tucker Carlson for example, like how Alex Jones bind to 1:46:07.160 --> 1:46:08.720 all these shooters, the thing they pivoted, one of the 1:46:08.720 --> 1:46:11.360 things they pivoted to is, oh, it's because all these 1:46:11.360 --> 1:46:15.880 people are on antidepressants. And it's like, no, I'm gonna 1:46:15.920 --> 1:46:18.880 I'm gonna talk about So there was there was this tweet, 1:46:18.920 --> 1:46:21.360 but I mean, I hate talking about Marjorie Taylor Greens. 1:46:21.400 --> 1:46:22.800 I think it's useless to talk about her, and it 1:46:22.880 --> 1:46:26.080 only gives her inflates the thing that she represents. But 1:46:26.080 --> 1:46:30.879 but but uh, she had this tweet about a picture 1:46:31.000 --> 1:46:33.440 of of him that that that that he that he posted, 1:46:34.000 --> 1:46:36.719 and she's asking is he in jail or a rehab 1:46:36.760 --> 1:46:39.160 center or a psychiatric center in this photo that's on 1:46:39.200 --> 1:46:43.320 his bedroom? What drugs are psychiatric drugs or both? Does 1:46:43.360 --> 1:46:47.639 he use? And the image here is of an image 1:46:47.760 --> 1:46:52.120 very clearly photoshopped of this person sitting in like of it, 1:46:52.240 --> 1:46:55.120 sitting in like a mental institution, holding a Bible. And 1:46:55.160 --> 1:46:57.360 it's part of this thing that is like a fetishizing 1:46:57.400 --> 1:47:00.559 the aesthetics of mental illness. Right, It's like, look at me, 1:47:00.680 --> 1:47:04.040 I'm I am so detached from reality, I be I 1:47:04.520 --> 1:47:09.640 belong inside a mental institution and the aesthetics of Christian fascism, 1:47:09.680 --> 1:47:11.760 which is also a weird part of it. There's a 1:47:11.760 --> 1:47:15.160 photo one of the like images he posted in four chan. 1:47:15.560 --> 1:47:17.760 I think it was fortunately I may be mistaken about 1:47:17.760 --> 1:47:20.360 the exact location, but it was like it was a 1:47:20.400 --> 1:47:25.360 Catholic saint with like the sacred heart like in her hands, 1:47:25.720 --> 1:47:29.400 with the head replaced by like some anime girl. I've i've, 1:47:29.479 --> 1:47:33.920 I have not seen that yet. But yeah, this image 1:47:34.320 --> 1:47:36.920 that he made of of inside this this mental hospital, 1:47:37.280 --> 1:47:39.639 that that is, that is part of the joke to him, right, 1:47:39.920 --> 1:47:43.599 the joke, Like I don't think he would actually assume 1:47:43.800 --> 1:47:46.160 that someone would think this is an unphotoshopped image. I 1:47:46.160 --> 1:47:50.679 think he would he hilarious obvious, like like Margine Taylor 1:47:50.720 --> 1:47:53.080 Grey is just like just like unable to determine the 1:47:53.080 --> 1:47:55.320 most basic photoshop that you can see the edge marks 1:47:55.439 --> 1:47:57.840 very clearly. So but but this, but like this is 1:47:57.880 --> 1:48:00.720 part of the joke, right, And everything getting into what 1:48:00.800 --> 1:48:04.799 he actually believes about reality and stuff isn't important because 1:48:05.240 --> 1:48:08.360 everything about this is has to do with like post 1:48:08.400 --> 1:48:13.720 to ironic violence and post ironic like comedy, post ironic 1:48:14.000 --> 1:48:17.160 like ideas of reality. It's the difference between this what 1:48:17.320 --> 1:48:20.280 is sincere and what is real and what is ironic 1:48:20.320 --> 1:48:22.760 and what is fake don't matter. They as long as 1:48:22.800 --> 1:48:25.080 they're happening, that's what's happening. So it's all as real 1:48:25.320 --> 1:48:28.840 as anything else. So getting into specific ideas about what 1:48:28.840 --> 1:48:32.320 he personally believes doesn't actually matter because one we don't 1:48:32.320 --> 1:48:34.400 know if that's genuine at all. He's he's putting everything 1:48:34.400 --> 1:48:37.840 out intentionally. And two it doesn't matter on the actual 1:48:37.880 --> 1:48:41.400 material circumstances. What are producing effects inside our world right now, 1:48:41.520 --> 1:48:44.840 like these types of like acts of violence, but it's 1:48:45.000 --> 1:48:48.519 it's everything is put out, should be but it'll seem 1:48:48.520 --> 1:48:52.639 like contradictory, it'll seem confusing. Right. He opened a video 1:48:52.640 --> 1:48:54.479 of his that he was like doing a live stream 1:48:54.560 --> 1:48:56.719 like like I think, like over like a year ago, 1:48:57.040 --> 1:49:00.200 and he he calls everyone who's watching his live stream 1:49:00.560 --> 1:49:04.480 like he calls them communists. He's like, hey, communists, um. 1:49:04.520 --> 1:49:06.720 And it's not because they're actually communists, not because he 1:49:06.760 --> 1:49:09.880 likes communism. It's not because he's necessarily fascist either. It's 1:49:09.920 --> 1:49:12.320 that all these things are so blurred and you use 1:49:12.320 --> 1:49:16.800 them interchangeably to produce this sense of meaninglessness and the 1:49:16.880 --> 1:49:21.120 reaction to this meaningless world that he's constructed for himself 1:49:21.200 --> 1:49:24.160 and these types of online subcultures try to construct. The 1:49:24.200 --> 1:49:27.800 only sensible reaction to this meaningless world is for them 1:49:27.800 --> 1:49:30.120 to do these types of acts of violence. That is, 1:49:30.280 --> 1:49:32.840 that is the point. So the actual details what they're 1:49:32.840 --> 1:49:35.840 saying aren't important, because it's all about constructing this world 1:49:35.880 --> 1:49:40.960 that is utterly meaningless and self contradictory and confusing and 1:49:41.080 --> 1:49:43.760 nothing makes sense and the only way to respond to 1:49:43.840 --> 1:49:46.320 that is to get out of it. And that's part 1:49:46.360 --> 1:49:49.280 of what they're they're trying to do. And there are 1:49:49.320 --> 1:49:52.800 I mean, and again part of the frustrating things that 1:49:52.840 --> 1:49:55.600 there are all of these things that people try to 1:49:55.720 --> 1:49:58.760 kind of simply affix to this our pieces of it. Yeah, 1:49:58.760 --> 1:50:03.160 American gun culture, the fetishization of violence as the way 1:50:03.160 --> 1:50:05.800 to achieve positive ends in our culture is a part 1:50:05.840 --> 1:50:08.559 of this. It's why, it's part of why the natural 1:50:08.600 --> 1:50:12.240 response to everything is meaningless and confusing is going a 1:50:12.320 --> 1:50:16.920 galling spray exactly. Um. And likewise, the fact that politics 1:50:17.040 --> 1:50:18.840 is where it is where you have like this one 1:50:18.920 --> 1:50:22.560 party that's the Republican Party that is almost entirely dedicated 1:50:22.600 --> 1:50:26.400 to like owning the Libs and just purely attacking people 1:50:26.479 --> 1:50:28.880 rather than trying to do anything because their policies have 1:50:28.960 --> 1:50:32.000 been unmitigated disasters for the country, and the other side 1:50:32.040 --> 1:50:33.920 just kind of blindly tells people to vote like that 1:50:34.000 --> 1:50:38.599 hopelessness that like that, that kind of nihilistic aggression on 1:50:38.640 --> 1:50:41.439 the right all feeds into this. And you could say 1:50:41.439 --> 1:50:45.000 that like a great deal of right wing media, particularly 1:50:45.120 --> 1:50:47.719 right wing ault media, is kind of firms a heavy 1:50:47.720 --> 1:50:51.160 component of like the milieu that this guy was radicalized in. 1:50:51.640 --> 1:50:54.720 But it's more like that kind of stuff provided a 1:50:54.800 --> 1:50:56.840 language for him than it is that that kind of 1:50:56.840 --> 1:50:59.840 stuff was specifically like his motivating things. The same thing 1:50:59.840 --> 1:51:05.120 with Trumpism, right, Like he he engaged with Trumpism only 1:51:05.680 --> 1:51:08.840 in a way that it helps kind of destabilize things. 1:51:08.880 --> 1:51:12.360 And is this like orbit of chaos, right, That's that's 1:51:12.400 --> 1:51:14.599 why it that that that's why it's into it. Right, 1:51:14.600 --> 1:51:18.840 He was deeply into stuff run conspiracy theories, paranormal deep nihilism, um, 1:51:19.080 --> 1:51:22.240 getting cut off from consensus reality, getting awakened to some 1:51:22.360 --> 1:51:25.720 like greater truth. Everything that he's actually into is all 1:51:25.960 --> 1:51:29.040 just to serve to serve those types of means. Politics 1:51:29.439 --> 1:51:31.879 aren't the core part of that, but it's a reaction 1:51:32.040 --> 1:51:34.000 to politics. And then he's going to use it as 1:51:34.040 --> 1:51:38.960 just as just another tool. It's because yeah, many of 1:51:38.960 --> 1:51:41.040 them are racist. Maybe they can share racist memes, but 1:51:41.360 --> 1:51:44.599 that's not actually the the the center point of of 1:51:44.920 --> 1:51:48.599 what's going on um. And you know, in some ways 1:51:48.600 --> 1:51:50.120 to be easier if it would be, because that gives 1:51:50.160 --> 1:51:53.160 you something actually easy to target otherwise right now, you know, 1:51:53.320 --> 1:51:55.920 when you're trying to address this whole propaganda style that 1:51:56.000 --> 1:51:58.400 is encouraging these things to happen, it's a harder thing 1:51:58.400 --> 1:52:00.240 to climb down on because it's it's an like an 1:52:00.320 --> 1:52:02.800 endless game of whack a mole trying to find out, 1:52:02.840 --> 1:52:05.519 you know, who's the big people pushing content like this 1:52:05.640 --> 1:52:08.040 right now and like these weird niche communities, how can 1:52:08.080 --> 1:52:10.080 we get them taken down? And they just always pop 1:52:10.120 --> 1:52:12.080 back up, right It's always it's it's this end this game. 1:52:12.120 --> 1:52:15.640 So it's hard to target, and that leaves you with 1:52:15.720 --> 1:52:18.360 the feeling of like hopelessness on how this situation will 1:52:18.400 --> 1:52:20.200 be solved, which is like also part of the point 1:52:20.240 --> 1:52:22.080 of why these attacks happen is to is to get 1:52:22.120 --> 1:52:25.960 that reaction. Um, but it sucks, like it's it's it's 1:52:26.120 --> 1:52:28.280 it's always bad to just have the like the only 1:52:28.280 --> 1:52:30.240 thing you think about is like, oh wow, I don't 1:52:30.280 --> 1:52:33.360 see a way to solve this. It's just terrible. But 1:52:33.400 --> 1:52:37.360 that's part of the intention here, and man, it's it's 1:52:37.360 --> 1:52:40.800 not good because you know, you this this isn't the 1:52:40.840 --> 1:52:45.080 first shooting that has happened from this skits awave aesthetic. 1:52:45.160 --> 1:52:48.519 There there. There has been other ones, but these things 1:52:48.520 --> 1:52:51.920 are norms are gonna start hearing more and more about this, 1:52:52.720 --> 1:52:57.000 and that sucks. Um, It's gonna become more of a 1:52:57.280 --> 1:52:58.960 of a thing that people are going to be aware of. 1:52:59.040 --> 1:53:01.439 Right as soon as as soon as MPR starts talking 1:53:01.479 --> 1:53:03.960 about it, you're like, Okay, this is this is fully 1:53:04.000 --> 1:53:06.400 this is this is fully escaped the box. It's it's 1:53:06.880 --> 1:53:09.800 it's one of those things when um, because I was 1:53:09.840 --> 1:53:12.639 just I was saying earlier, like what it's like when 1:53:12.680 --> 1:53:16.479 you finally when you find yourself staring at it something 1:53:16.520 --> 1:53:18.799 that is going to blow up in a violent way 1:53:19.080 --> 1:53:21.920 and just not knowing when you are one of a 1:53:22.000 --> 1:53:24.320 number of folks who I've known who are kind of 1:53:24.600 --> 1:53:27.320 particularly dealing with this space. And it's been like two 1:53:27.400 --> 1:53:29.840 years that folks have been saying like there is there 1:53:29.840 --> 1:53:32.519 will have it like and the thing that is most 1:53:32.640 --> 1:53:36.519 almost as frightening as like anything else is that. And 1:53:36.560 --> 1:53:40.280 then fucking Brett Bear is going to be talking about 1:53:40.320 --> 1:53:43.040 Schizo wave on the news like we're gonna have to 1:53:43.280 --> 1:53:45.240 We're gonna have to deal with like Joe Rogan trying 1:53:45.280 --> 1:53:48.639 to parse this ship out while stoned um, while stoned 1:53:48.720 --> 1:53:51.400 and well, talking about the Cally Yuka and we're talking 1:53:51.439 --> 1:53:54.400 about the fucking calli Uga, which does lead us into 1:53:54.439 --> 1:53:57.040 the board Apiacht Club Gas. So are we gonna are 1:53:57.040 --> 1:54:00.479 we gonna set? So we'renna talk about one thing dealing 1:54:00.479 --> 1:54:02.519 with skits. We were finished talking about one thing dealing 1:54:02.520 --> 1:54:04.880 with skits away and then when I enter into other 1:54:04.920 --> 1:54:09.080 thing that the only accurate way I can describe describe 1:54:09.080 --> 1:54:13.760 this is that my my dives into this, into this 1:54:13.880 --> 1:54:16.600 theory are the equivalent of what it feels like to 1:54:16.640 --> 1:54:19.400 have a psychotic episode. And that's not that's not disparaging 1:54:19.439 --> 1:54:22.120 at all. It's about the actual thing is your brain 1:54:22.200 --> 1:54:25.439 does when that happens. How you take one meaningless piece 1:54:25.439 --> 1:54:28.200 of information and project meaning onto it to make it 1:54:28.240 --> 1:54:31.200 super important. Um, and how that kind of cascades down. 1:54:32.280 --> 1:54:36.920 Oh boy, So the board the board a fiacht club 1:54:37.840 --> 1:54:39.880 a k A. Now, I guess the board ape Nazi 1:54:39.920 --> 1:54:43.320 Club because people online have decided that they're really good 1:54:43.360 --> 1:54:46.839 at researching Nazis. I guess somebody hopp into the fucking 1:54:46.960 --> 1:54:49.400 subreddit and tell us that we we needed to be 1:54:50.120 --> 1:54:52.720 all right, we needed to be dealing with this. Yeah, 1:54:53.080 --> 1:54:55.880 So I was like, like, randomly, I like visited some 1:54:55.920 --> 1:54:58.640 of my friends in Chicago who are like normies and 1:54:58.680 --> 1:55:01.760 like they were telling me about this video. Yeah, it's 1:55:01.840 --> 1:55:03.760 it is. It is again. It has fully escaped the 1:55:03.800 --> 1:55:06.880 box now and that's part of the problem. So there 1:55:06.960 --> 1:55:11.280 is this YouTuber who made a video in partnership with 1:55:11.360 --> 1:55:15.560 a quote unquote internet artist um about how the Board 1:55:15.600 --> 1:55:21.200 Apiacht Club friends of the pod are secretly this Nazi 1:55:21.360 --> 1:55:28.080 op to troll everyone into spreading esoteric Nazism. That's that's 1:55:28.120 --> 1:55:31.600 the claim. Now, first I'm gonna say that the guy 1:55:31.640 --> 1:55:33.760 who made this video was in partnership with this internet 1:55:33.840 --> 1:55:37.200 artist who at the same time launched a rival ape 1:55:37.200 --> 1:55:40.280 based n f T project, and this video served as 1:55:40.360 --> 1:55:43.160 an ad for his rival ape n f T project. 1:55:43.440 --> 1:55:46.280 And to be clear, his Ape n f T project 1:55:46.440 --> 1:55:49.000 was taking the art that the Board Apiacht Club used 1:55:49.000 --> 1:55:51.840 for their apes, making no changes to it, and just 1:55:51.920 --> 1:55:54.720 selling it to people on a different platform, which is 1:55:54.800 --> 1:55:58.120 like intellectual property theft right, right, Like, I never want 1:55:58.120 --> 1:55:59.760 to be the guy saying the board apes are leading 1:56:00.000 --> 1:56:03.000 on the right. I can't believe, like we are not 1:56:03.120 --> 1:56:06.520 defending Board Ape Yacht Club and I want them to 1:56:06.520 --> 1:56:08.560 be hit with a brick. But we're talking about this 1:56:08.600 --> 1:56:14.920 because people are appropriating the term, appropriating the almost like 1:56:14.960 --> 1:56:17.880 the aesthetics of anti fascist research that he started selling 1:56:17.880 --> 1:56:21.240 their own products. They are appropriating the aesthetics of anti 1:56:21.560 --> 1:56:26.000 of scholarship focused on extremism, um, in order to sell 1:56:26.120 --> 1:56:28.200 n f T s. That's what's happening with this. The 1:56:28.240 --> 1:56:31.240 board Ape Yacht Club or Nazis video so agains. So 1:56:31.280 --> 1:56:33.560 all the inporation comes from this from this guy who's 1:56:33.560 --> 1:56:37.360 a rival arrival n f T internet art. What's his name, 1:56:37.720 --> 1:56:40.840 hig writer Rips? I think, yeah, writer Rips. Yeah, because 1:56:40.840 --> 1:56:43.760 he's being sued now by the Board Apes or whatever, 1:56:43.800 --> 1:56:48.920 and like, good god, I and I mean everything, I 1:56:48.920 --> 1:56:51.280 I'm not gonna if you watch the video that we're 1:56:51.280 --> 1:56:54.160 referring to, I'm not disparaging you in case you thought 1:56:54.160 --> 1:56:55.760 it was convincing, because I mean that was part of 1:56:55.800 --> 1:56:57.720 the editing, because he was trying to make it seem convincing. 1:56:57.920 --> 1:57:00.280 But every every single thing is like cherry pick and 1:57:00.440 --> 1:57:04.640 squished together to resemble meaning. But once you actually open 1:57:04.680 --> 1:57:07.120 it up, you're like, oh, this is actually nothing. Um. 1:57:07.160 --> 1:57:10.000 The whole thirty minute section on the cipher is about 1:57:10.080 --> 1:57:13.520 them doing cipher's badly to get a result out of 1:57:13.560 --> 1:57:15.640 the clues that they were given. They're looking for specific 1:57:15.640 --> 1:57:18.840 results to match whatever they want to see um. And 1:57:18.920 --> 1:57:23.760 everything else is the connections are so tangential um and 1:57:24.040 --> 1:57:27.840 it's it's like synchronicity gone bad. Right. It's people who 1:57:27.880 --> 1:57:30.960 take these things and protect meaning onto them, when in 1:57:31.040 --> 1:57:33.720 reality that's just how everything in the world works, and 1:57:33.760 --> 1:57:36.000 it's not actually meaningful or important. It's just because you're 1:57:36.000 --> 1:57:38.000 focusing on it, so you're gonna see it everywhere. It 1:57:38.040 --> 1:57:39.680 is the same thing we were talking about in our 1:57:39.720 --> 1:57:43.920 food factories, conspiracy videos, a podcast sorry, and and it's 1:57:44.720 --> 1:57:46.760 basically one of the things that has made this, I 1:57:46.760 --> 1:57:49.880 think spread so viral e is that there's a germ 1:57:49.880 --> 1:57:53.320 of not truth. But there's there's a single convincing point 1:57:53.440 --> 1:57:56.080 that it all starts from. And the single convincing point 1:57:56.160 --> 1:58:00.480 is that the board Apiat club logo was from that 1:58:00.520 --> 1:58:04.120 other Nazi logo. Absolutely, yeah, very is very much patterned 1:58:04.160 --> 1:58:06.400 off of like the the old s s Death's Head 1:58:06.680 --> 1:58:09.280 because you shouldn't, yeah, because the number of things going 1:58:09.280 --> 1:58:12.040 on there, because the Nazis were really good at graphic design, 1:58:12.120 --> 1:58:15.600 and because also that's not originally a Nazi thing. It 1:58:15.640 --> 1:58:18.440 has its origins and a Prussian military unit, and there's 1:58:18.480 --> 1:58:20.640 a reason why the death's head went so far. And 1:58:20.680 --> 1:58:22.800 it is generally like, for example, when you see a 1:58:22.840 --> 1:58:25.800 death's head on in the Ukrainian soldier in like Ukraine, 1:58:25.960 --> 1:58:29.240 that dude's probably got some pretty Nazi fucking beliefs. It's 1:58:29.280 --> 1:58:32.240 not a it's it's not a again, So the fact 1:58:32.240 --> 1:58:34.120 that you see something that looks like it may have 1:58:34.160 --> 1:58:37.800 an inspiration in that um but like is a worthwhile 1:58:37.880 --> 1:58:42.240 point to start looking at stuff. Absolutely, But once you 1:58:42.280 --> 1:58:44.480 go at it with a conclusion in mind, then find 1:58:44.520 --> 1:58:46.720 things just to back up your own conclusion. That's not 1:58:46.720 --> 1:58:49.840 how you do good research because man, like one of 1:58:49.880 --> 1:58:52.120 the founders is Jewish, not saying Jewish people can't be 1:58:52.160 --> 1:58:54.720 fascist or whatever, but like half the people who started 1:58:54.720 --> 1:58:59.480 it are ethnic minorities. They're really bad writers, and they 1:58:59.480 --> 1:59:02.400 put together this thing that's complete nonsense, and people are 1:59:02.400 --> 1:59:05.440 now assuming it's this, yeah, make a conspiracy, and it's not. 1:59:05.520 --> 1:59:07.400 It's just because it's so And I think part of 1:59:07.400 --> 1:59:09.720 why people are so so. I think part of why 1:59:09.720 --> 1:59:12.480 a chunk of the people who hate it want there 1:59:12.520 --> 1:59:15.240 to be a conspiracy is because this thing has made 1:59:15.280 --> 1:59:18.640 so much money, and it is utterly banal and an idiotic, 1:59:18.680 --> 1:59:20.720 and it is utterly been all in idiotic and part 1:59:20.760 --> 1:59:22.840 of the thing A lot of this comes out of 1:59:22.880 --> 1:59:25.920 and a lot of the strength that kind of this individual, 1:59:26.040 --> 1:59:29.080 this thing has, this this video has comes out of 1:59:29.080 --> 1:59:32.120 the fact that years ago a number of folks, some 1:59:32.200 --> 1:59:34.920 of whom our present company here, started warning people about 1:59:35.000 --> 1:59:37.280 the ways in which fascists would hide things like fourteen 1:59:37.360 --> 1:59:41.720 and eight and all of dog whistles, hidden imagory, all 1:59:41.720 --> 1:59:44.320 that kind of stuff here is and and so people 1:59:44.360 --> 1:59:46.480 started to get primed to the fact that that happens, 1:59:46.480 --> 1:59:48.920 that the Nazis hide ship, and that that that you 1:59:48.920 --> 1:59:51.680 should be on the lookout for it. But one of 1:59:51.760 --> 1:59:53.960 the things that has been forgotten, I think, in kind 1:59:54.000 --> 1:59:57.080 of the rush to do that for ship like this, 1:59:57.200 --> 2:00:00.400 is that it's not just the fact that there hiding 2:00:00.480 --> 2:00:01.960 like and in the in the specific case of people 2:00:02.000 --> 2:00:04.040 are putting fourteens and eighty eights and ship. When I 2:00:04.080 --> 2:00:06.120 was discussing that was nearly always in the context of 2:00:06.160 --> 2:00:08.640 like members of Patriot Prayer and the Proud Boys and 2:00:08.680 --> 2:00:12.000 affiliated groups who were beating people in the streets. Right, 2:00:12.160 --> 2:00:14.360 So you're not you don't just have the imagery you 2:00:14.440 --> 2:00:16.880 have someone going out and doing things that like they 2:00:16.880 --> 2:00:18.760 are claiming I have nothing to do with fashions, but 2:00:18.840 --> 2:00:22.720 like no, you can see like you haven't and there. Yeah, 2:00:22.800 --> 2:00:26.120 if you have an ape that's numbered one eight, which 2:00:26.120 --> 2:00:29.720 is a video, it's because there's like ten thous these 2:00:29.720 --> 2:00:33.480 apes and they're all numbered in numerical order. Yeah, it's 2:00:33.520 --> 2:00:35.800 like the fact that in a group of a set 2:00:35.800 --> 2:00:38.600 of ten thousand apes, one of them is a number 2:00:38.600 --> 2:00:42.560 of four eight is not Nazi dog whistling even anymore 2:00:42.600 --> 2:00:44.560 than it would be Satanic dog whistling that there's gonna 2:00:44.560 --> 2:00:46.280 be a six six six in there. You know. It's 2:00:46.640 --> 2:00:49.440 just like there's one that's six nine six nine, just 2:00:49.560 --> 2:00:53.760 like there's one that's two three four seven. Whatever. Yeah, 2:00:53.760 --> 2:00:55.440 it's it's like that thing people used to do were 2:00:55.480 --> 2:00:58.320 like I don't know if people still do this, but 2:00:58.360 --> 2:01:00.000 like they were when I was like kid. People would 2:01:00.080 --> 2:01:02.120 like you get someone who'd like pull out a grid 2:01:02.200 --> 2:01:04.960 of a city and they start drawing pentagrams on it. Yeah, exactly, 2:01:05.000 --> 2:01:07.040 and it's like, well, yeah, there's a bunch of random 2:01:07.120 --> 2:01:12.120 lines if you can. But the other thing that's that's 2:01:12.160 --> 2:01:13.880 a really problem. That's a big problem about this. It's 2:01:13.880 --> 2:01:17.120 not only it's passing off bad extremism research to sell 2:01:17.240 --> 2:01:18.840 their own n f T product, which is bad and 2:01:18.960 --> 2:01:23.560 of itself. It's also saying the stuff that doesn't need 2:01:23.600 --> 2:01:26.160 to be said out loudly to a huge audience, all 2:01:26.200 --> 2:01:30.120 while using the fast wave image style, and that sucks 2:01:30.400 --> 2:01:33.520 because it's talking about things like traditionalism. It's talking about 2:01:33.680 --> 2:01:37.000 types of esoteric Nazism that usually we don't want to 2:01:37.040 --> 2:01:39.520 put a giant megaphone on because when people get really 2:01:39.520 --> 2:01:42.040 into this, you get stuff like the shooting that happened 2:01:42.360 --> 2:01:44.960 a few days ago. That's that's Those are the same 2:01:45.040 --> 2:01:47.640 Internet communities that this stuff is really fostered in, So 2:01:47.680 --> 2:01:50.000 we don't like to amplify it because the more people 2:01:50.000 --> 2:01:52.880 who are in these communities, the more their brains slowly 2:01:52.880 --> 2:01:55.800 get chipped away at by these people making this making 2:01:55.840 --> 2:01:59.480 these types of like hypnotic propaganda. So when we have 2:01:59.720 --> 2:02:02.560 a tuber that has a video with millions of views 2:02:02.800 --> 2:02:06.640 talking about the Caluga, talking about Julius A. Vola talking 2:02:06.760 --> 2:02:10.440 about a whole bunch of stuff around like extremely niche 2:02:10.480 --> 2:02:13.640 occult Nazism, that's not great, especially when they're using the 2:02:13.640 --> 2:02:16.320 fastave style. Of video editing to make it seem really 2:02:16.320 --> 2:02:19.560 cool and scary, and when they're doing it ultimately to 2:02:19.720 --> 2:02:22.720 make money in an n f T scheme, right, It's 2:02:22.760 --> 2:02:24.920 it's it's more than just this is not just somebody 2:02:24.960 --> 2:02:29.120 did research that was like bad um. This is somebody 2:02:29.160 --> 2:02:34.040 crafted a viral thing using the aesthetics of research um 2:02:34.120 --> 2:02:38.560 and dropping some really dangerous shit into the consciousness in 2:02:38.560 --> 2:02:41.800 an irresponsible way to sell the same ape drawings they 2:02:41.800 --> 2:02:46.440 were attacking. Extremely frustrating because even the whole cipher section 2:02:46.480 --> 2:02:49.440 of the video I'll still reel against because it's about 2:02:49.480 --> 2:02:54.040 people using a bad jillion cipher methodologies to get specific 2:02:54.040 --> 2:02:56.080 results out of it that they want, and all the 2:02:56.120 --> 2:02:58.840 results they get out of it also are like not 2:02:59.160 --> 2:03:01.760 problematic and kind of explainable, Like all of them refer 2:03:01.800 --> 2:03:04.480 to something about monkeys anyways, even if they are true, 2:03:04.880 --> 2:03:07.280 it's not. It's it doesn't necessarily need to be referencing 2:03:07.320 --> 2:03:10.000 this obscure thing in traditionalism. It's like, oh no, that's 2:03:10.000 --> 2:03:14.480 because it's the name of a fucking monkey. And I 2:03:14.520 --> 2:03:16.560 don't again, I don't. I don't have any actual opinion 2:03:16.640 --> 2:03:20.320 on whether the Bourne Apiat Club has someone working for 2:03:20.400 --> 2:03:23.480 it that is hiding in secret references because honestly, I 2:03:23.520 --> 2:03:26.880 don't care, because all because what it's viewed publicly as 2:03:27.160 --> 2:03:29.920 is a stupid n f T thing. I mean, it's not. 2:03:30.000 --> 2:03:32.280 It's not viewed publicly with people who use it as 2:03:32.320 --> 2:03:35.320 a Secretnacy conspiracy because if it is, what's the impact, 2:03:35.400 --> 2:03:37.880 What's what's the impact that it's had? Like, how how 2:03:37.880 --> 2:03:40.200 would it matter if it's a secret Nazi conspiracy theory? 2:03:40.240 --> 2:03:43.839 What's it? What's it doing? It's it's selling bad pictures 2:03:43.840 --> 2:03:47.240 of monkeys. When when we talk about the first wave 2:03:47.280 --> 2:03:49.040 of this and like they need to explain, you know, 2:03:49.080 --> 2:03:51.160 the symbols that people were hiding in these like right 2:03:51.160 --> 2:03:53.360 wing street movements of a bunch of whom wound up 2:03:53.400 --> 2:03:56.240 feeding into Jam six, It's easy to say, well, what 2:03:56.360 --> 2:03:58.440 the harm was? They were going out, they were beating people, 2:03:58.480 --> 2:04:01.320 they were planning terrorists a tax, right like that. Yeah, 2:04:01.920 --> 2:04:05.040 it's doing terrorists to I have I again, I fucking 2:04:05.080 --> 2:04:07.560 hate these Board eight motherfucker's. I think this is the 2:04:07.720 --> 2:04:11.920 stupidest fucking I don't know trend I've seen in my 2:04:12.040 --> 2:04:16.320 entire goddamn life. I cannot point to anything even vaguely Nazi. 2:04:16.400 --> 2:04:20.360 They have supported or done like and among other things. 2:04:20.480 --> 2:04:22.720 If you want to know if something is a dangerous 2:04:22.800 --> 2:04:27.240 conspiracy or a stupid grift, one question you should ask 2:04:27.280 --> 2:04:29.200 yourself and this isn't always relevant, but one question you 2:04:29.240 --> 2:04:32.800 should ask yourself is is Jimmy Fallon involved? Because if 2:04:32.880 --> 2:04:36.120 Jimmy Fallon is involved, it's probably just a dumb grift. 2:04:36.480 --> 2:04:39.800 Because I mean, the whole, the whole, the watching this 2:04:39.840 --> 2:04:42.640 guy break down how you get secret messages out of 2:04:42.680 --> 2:04:45.920 these ciphers is it's it's the same. It's the same 2:04:45.960 --> 2:04:48.640 thing as like to and on ship. It's people wanting 2:04:48.680 --> 2:04:51.280 to get an answer out of numbers and things and 2:04:51.320 --> 2:04:53.600 then pushing that answer as truth even if it's like 2:04:54.280 --> 2:04:58.440 not not based in any form of reality. Yeah, it's 2:04:58.520 --> 2:05:00.880 it's so it's it's really frustrating to watch people basically 2:05:01.040 --> 2:05:05.400 start using Q and ON style research tactics to justify 2:05:05.480 --> 2:05:08.200 their hatred of an n f T project, which is like, no, 2:05:08.560 --> 2:05:10.200 you can just dislike it from being an n f 2:05:10.240 --> 2:05:13.000 T thing. You don't need to rapid in a in 2:05:13.040 --> 2:05:17.280 this package that is just really bad extremism research. Part 2:05:17.280 --> 2:05:19.880 of one of the things that scares me about this 2:05:19.960 --> 2:05:22.400 attack and about like what's going to happen kind of 2:05:22.440 --> 2:05:25.760 in the media after it is that. Um, I think 2:05:25.840 --> 2:05:28.600 kind of inevitably these aesthetics are just going to get 2:05:28.600 --> 2:05:31.200 co opted on a wider and wider basis. That's what's 2:05:31.240 --> 2:05:34.560 happening on TikTok right now, is that these these types 2:05:34.600 --> 2:05:37.880 of fast, waven, schizweve aesthetics are just becoming a core 2:05:38.000 --> 2:05:42.400 part of the zoomer online aesthetic. And that sucks. The 2:05:42.400 --> 2:05:44.560 The other point I wanted to mention about the Highland 2:05:44.560 --> 2:05:46.800 Park thing is like this, this guy that did this 2:05:47.000 --> 2:05:52.240 is such a perfect profile of this type of de 2:05:52.440 --> 2:05:58.720 attached like gen Z like almost I like like post 2:05:58.760 --> 2:06:02.720 politics terrorism, um that Like he is such a perfect 2:06:02.760 --> 2:06:05.640 example of someone who has been online since he was 2:06:05.680 --> 2:06:08.880 a very very little kid trying to make content online. Right, 2:06:08.920 --> 2:06:11.000 everyone in gen Z needs to be performing all of 2:06:11.040 --> 2:06:13.200 the time, right, Your whole life is a performance for 2:06:13.240 --> 2:06:15.640 the internet. Um. He was doing that same thing. He's 2:06:15.640 --> 2:06:19.080 been making them, making music and videos and ships since 2:06:19.080 --> 2:06:23.200 he was he was like younger than me. Like he's 2:06:23.200 --> 2:06:26.120 been doing this for a long long time. Um. And 2:06:26.400 --> 2:06:29.840 the types of like you know, like nested communities that 2:06:29.880 --> 2:06:33.080 you get like that you like fall into. It's such 2:06:33.560 --> 2:06:37.000 it's such like a clear example of the very types 2:06:37.040 --> 2:06:39.240 of things that you know, me and others have been 2:06:39.280 --> 2:06:43.080 talking about and warning about for a while. Um. And 2:06:43.120 --> 2:06:46.960 it's the whole like muddled nous of reality that we 2:06:47.000 --> 2:06:49.600 even get with this like board a Nazi clip video. Right, 2:06:49.680 --> 2:06:52.120 They're all part of this same problem with the Internet, 2:06:52.200 --> 2:06:55.000 Like our brains weren't designed for this much information coming 2:06:55.040 --> 2:06:57.160 at us at the same time, we cannot sort it 2:06:57.200 --> 2:07:02.480 all out. Um. And it's not ideal. Um, I was, 2:07:02.680 --> 2:07:05.600 it's not It's not great. I would rather it not 2:07:05.720 --> 2:07:08.200 be like this. I don't know how to like comment 2:07:08.280 --> 2:07:10.720 people with a solution to this, because this is an 2:07:10.880 --> 2:07:13.960 unsolved problem. It's like, come up with a solution for 2:07:15.200 --> 2:07:20.640 the fucking um the fact that emissions like are not 2:07:20.800 --> 2:07:22.880 going to be reduced, you know, because the world, because 2:07:22.920 --> 2:07:27.400 the world does suck. But the very be very cognizant 2:07:27.600 --> 2:07:32.760 of video propaganda styles and anyone that uses flashing like 2:07:33.120 --> 2:07:37.920 classic or catholic um like imagery. Be very very careful, 2:07:37.920 --> 2:07:40.800 be very careful of people who fetishize these tetics of 2:07:41.120 --> 2:07:45.280 mental illness. Be very careful about about people that that 2:07:45.720 --> 2:07:49.480 you wrap these aesthetics of of mental mental illness and 2:07:49.520 --> 2:07:52.480 like a very violent package because like that that's what 2:07:52.520 --> 2:07:55.240 we get with with with the shooter. He was like 2:07:55.680 --> 2:07:58.400 doing doing videos about about, you know, these types of 2:07:58.640 --> 2:08:01.200 mental illness that end with him just like a picture 2:08:01.200 --> 2:08:03.959 of like a drawing of him holding a gun. Um. 2:08:03.960 --> 2:08:05.720 You know, way before he bought a gun, he was 2:08:05.920 --> 2:08:09.600 making art about about this. UM. I think the one 2:08:09.640 --> 2:08:12.400 that's stuck out to me most was him repeatedly referring 2:08:12.440 --> 2:08:16.920 to himself as a sleepwalker, UM, which which I don't know, 2:08:16.960 --> 2:08:19.840 like obviously that is very much in line with the 2:08:20.320 --> 2:08:23.640 Skitzawave aesthetic stuff that like you have been talking about. 2:08:24.000 --> 2:08:26.360 It also kind of makes me think, I mean it. 2:08:26.560 --> 2:08:30.560 It brought me to thinking about Barbara Tuckman, who is 2:08:30.720 --> 2:08:32.800 a historian who wrote a book called The Guns of 2:08:32.800 --> 2:08:36.040 August that's a history of World War One. UM that 2:08:36.040 --> 2:08:39.120 that describes kind of the machinery that got set up 2:08:39.120 --> 2:08:46.040 and marched everybody into that situation exploding like sleep sleepwalkers, right. Um, 2:08:46.080 --> 2:08:51.080 Like this system has been set up and the people 2:08:51.120 --> 2:08:56.080 are kind of so unwilling to see where it's leading that, Uh, 2:08:56.240 --> 2:08:59.440 everything is just kind of marching with a with a 2:08:59.480 --> 2:09:01.760 sense of an inevitability towards a worse and a worse 2:09:01.880 --> 2:09:05.040 end point. And that's that's what scares me most about this. 2:09:05.600 --> 2:09:08.560 I've I've listened to many of his horrible songs and 2:09:08.560 --> 2:09:11.600 there's nerric and there's lyrics very similar to that idea. 2:09:11.680 --> 2:09:16.800 UM about that kind of inevitable, like faked driven nature 2:09:17.000 --> 2:09:21.840 of our current situation and how reality has become so 2:09:21.920 --> 2:09:25.240 muddled with the internet. Um, and like we there's been 2:09:25.600 --> 2:09:30.520 uh an intentional, top down effort to destroy any nature 2:09:30.640 --> 2:09:34.440 of consensus reality and make everything up for debate of 2:09:34.960 --> 2:09:37.880 there's there is, there is Facts no longer are a thing, 2:09:38.040 --> 2:09:41.240 like they just don't exist. And this is the world 2:09:41.280 --> 2:09:44.160 that results from that happening. When there's people in power 2:09:44.480 --> 2:09:46.280 who put are pushing for this, like you know, like 2:09:46.520 --> 2:09:49.760 Steve Bannon is among you know, one of many people 2:09:49.760 --> 2:09:52.880 who are pushing for this type of world. Um, this 2:09:52.920 --> 2:09:54.480 is the result that we get, and this is the 2:09:54.800 --> 2:09:56.280 that they kind of want us to get. It's it's 2:09:56.320 --> 2:09:59.200 it's yeah, I mean because if everything is true and 2:09:59.240 --> 2:10:01.880 that's fine fun mentally, like what they're going for is 2:10:01.920 --> 2:10:05.640 this idea that like everything is true and nothing is everything? Yeah, 2:10:05.760 --> 2:10:07.920 and if every like and if you hit that state, 2:10:08.600 --> 2:10:11.800 you can do anything right, like to to steal a quote. 2:10:11.800 --> 2:10:15.200 Who was that? Was that fucking Crowley? Um? The but 2:10:15.200 --> 2:10:19.640 but like that's very much nothing is true. Everything is permitted. Yeah, 2:10:19.640 --> 2:10:26.560 I mean that goes all the way back to the assassins. Yes, sure, sure, sure, 2:10:27.440 --> 2:10:29.480 um but no, but it is like that is that 2:10:29.640 --> 2:10:32.480 is the thing, right if you mean even the even 2:10:32.520 --> 2:10:39.120 the shooter guy had numerous Discordian references in in his ship. Yeah. Yeah, 2:10:39.120 --> 2:10:41.480 it's all about the same stuff. It's all it's all 2:10:41.520 --> 2:10:44.840 dealing with these same problems. And you're right, obviously, if 2:10:44.880 --> 2:10:47.320 if you know, if you deal with dissociation as I 2:10:47.440 --> 2:10:49.800 sometimes do, if you you know like parts about the 2:10:49.800 --> 2:10:51.960 Discordian aesthetics and like like the kind of ideas they 2:10:51.960 --> 2:10:54.880 play with, that does not make you an inherently dangerous person. 2:10:55.000 --> 2:10:59.760 That's that's not the problem here, um the right, Like 2:10:59.800 --> 2:11:02.080 you get like, I'm you know in some ways, but 2:11:02.280 --> 2:11:04.040 I I think about a lot of a lot of 2:11:04.040 --> 2:11:05.880 these same topics because I look at all of this 2:11:07.200 --> 2:11:09.440 I'm I look at all of this research all the time. 2:11:09.680 --> 2:11:11.840 So it is my brains in a similar is isn't 2:11:11.840 --> 2:11:14.840 a isn't a similar place? That's that's that doesn't make 2:11:14.840 --> 2:11:18.000 you a bad person. That doesn't make you dangerous. Um, 2:11:18.080 --> 2:11:20.760 but I think it's important to be cognizant of the 2:11:20.800 --> 2:11:24.320 type of propaganda that people are pushing, the types of propaganda, 2:11:24.320 --> 2:11:28.040 trends and styles that are producing material effects in the world, 2:11:28.560 --> 2:11:34.440 like these types of shootings. Yeah, and so I don't 2:11:34.480 --> 2:11:38.680 know what else to say, honestly, because it's bad. Yeah, 2:11:38.720 --> 2:11:43.520 it's it's a problem. I would say, if anyone ever 2:11:43.600 --> 2:11:46.000 tells you about something they saw on the internet, hit 2:11:46.040 --> 2:11:48.920 them and runaway screaming. That's a good that's a good 2:11:48.960 --> 2:11:52.600 way to move forward. Um, and please don't don't start 2:11:52.640 --> 2:11:55.000 the other things like you know, we're gonna, we're gonna 2:11:55.200 --> 2:11:57.600 the right is going to have two possible reactions to 2:11:57.640 --> 2:12:00.800 stuff like this, Right, They're gonna one do a satanic panic. 2:12:00.800 --> 2:12:02.240 They be like, oh, look at these people doing a 2:12:02.320 --> 2:12:05.720 cult shit. Um, let's do another. Let's do another satanic panic, 2:12:05.800 --> 2:12:08.880 which would suck. There, there's there's there's there's that option 2:12:08.920 --> 2:12:11.080 obviously that would tie you into like transphobia, that would 2:12:11.080 --> 2:12:13.440 tie into a whole bunch of whole much of bullshit. Um. 2:12:13.600 --> 2:12:16.720 The other option is that people start, you know, using 2:12:16.720 --> 2:12:19.080 mentally ill people as a scapegoat that start of saying 2:12:19.080 --> 2:12:21.760 we should lock up people who deal with mental illness 2:12:22.280 --> 2:12:25.680 is also not that would suck, wouldn't solve the problem either, 2:12:26.080 --> 2:12:28.080 wouldn't do it. Yeah, Like that's the thing I've I've 2:12:28.120 --> 2:12:31.720 actually been seeing this in the last really like probably 2:12:31.800 --> 2:12:34.200 three months, is there's been a bunch of people who 2:12:34.240 --> 2:12:36.440 have been calling for like bringing like bringing sort of 2:12:36.440 --> 2:12:39.840 old school asylums back. That's that's exactly what the people, 2:12:40.080 --> 2:12:42.400 the people who make this propaganda, that's exactly what they want. 2:12:42.520 --> 2:12:45.240 That's that they want you to have that reaction that 2:12:45.280 --> 2:12:47.840 would make things so much worse. If you put people 2:12:47.840 --> 2:12:49.640 like this in an asylum for ten days then they 2:12:49.640 --> 2:12:52.200 get out there, they are so much more likely to 2:12:52.360 --> 2:12:54.760 to do these types of things. Not because they're actually 2:12:54.800 --> 2:12:56.400 like not because like not nothing to do with their 2:12:56.400 --> 2:12:58.840 actual whatever like mental things they have going on. It's 2:12:58.840 --> 2:13:01.720 because of the set. The aesthetic styling is right. They 2:13:01.720 --> 2:13:04.120 want to be a character in a story. If they 2:13:04.160 --> 2:13:05.920 feel like their life is going in a direction that 2:13:05.920 --> 2:13:07.520 they are a character in a story, they're getting put 2:13:07.520 --> 2:13:11.640 in these situations that they've memed about. Right, this guy's pictures, 2:13:11.680 --> 2:13:15.400 he's photostrapher of himself inside mental institutions, right, It's it's 2:13:15.400 --> 2:13:17.760 a character in a story. If you do that, you're 2:13:17.800 --> 2:13:20.320 playing right into their hands. It is that is not 2:13:20.400 --> 2:13:22.400 what that that should not be the focused of what 2:13:22.480 --> 2:13:26.120 we are doing. Um and like carsonal problems are not 2:13:26.160 --> 2:13:29.480 the solution to these types of things, especially for people 2:13:29.480 --> 2:13:32.800 who are who are like just making music online, Like 2:13:32.840 --> 2:13:36.080 what are you gonna do? Fucking arrest people for the 2:13:36.200 --> 2:13:40.320 like for the music they make like, that is not 2:13:40.360 --> 2:13:44.080 the solution. Don't let people turn this into targeting people 2:13:44.080 --> 2:13:47.960 who have actual like mental like mental things that they 2:13:48.000 --> 2:13:51.680 deal with. Don't make them the scapegoat of this. Um 2:13:51.720 --> 2:13:53.960 and be very careful if anyone tries to do any 2:13:54.040 --> 2:13:57.720 kind of satanic panic nonsense about secret occultists who are 2:13:57.720 --> 2:14:01.520 trying to alter your kids reality or whatever, or very 2:14:01.520 --> 2:14:04.240 careful because anyone who uses that type of framing for 2:14:04.280 --> 2:14:07.000 this problem is not genuine. They do not actually care. 2:14:07.200 --> 2:14:11.280 They are pushing something that they want. Yeah, I mean. 2:14:11.320 --> 2:14:14.800 And I think one of the reasons why the idea 2:14:14.840 --> 2:14:16.800 that these people are kind of seeing themselves as part 2:14:16.840 --> 2:14:18.720 of a narrative is important is because it represents a 2:14:18.760 --> 2:14:22.760 discontinuity with the way mass shootings have worked for most 2:14:22.800 --> 2:14:24.600 of the time that people listening to this has been 2:14:24.600 --> 2:14:27.640 alive in the United States prior to a couple of 2:14:27.680 --> 2:14:30.200 years ago. Really twenty nineteen was the big break year 2:14:30.240 --> 2:14:33.160 for this. The vast majority of mass shooters were also 2:14:33.200 --> 2:14:36.040 committing suicide. That was part of the goal. That was 2:14:36.120 --> 2:14:39.200 what happened. UM. And if you are an individual with 2:14:39.240 --> 2:14:42.120 a gun who has just committed a series of murders, 2:14:42.120 --> 2:14:44.280 it is very easy to make sure you die in 2:14:44.280 --> 2:14:47.240 that attack. It's extremely easy. Um. That is why so 2:14:47.280 --> 2:14:50.200 many of them did it. That has that has stopped 2:14:50.240 --> 2:14:52.240 being given in the way that it used to be. 2:14:52.360 --> 2:14:54.520 The change I think was christ Church was the main 2:14:54.560 --> 2:14:57.040 inflection point for this. But a lot of these guys 2:14:57.120 --> 2:15:01.840 go down alive. The Buffalo shooter taken alive, the last 2:15:01.880 --> 2:15:04.560 the last skitz Awave shooter from a few months ago, 2:15:05.040 --> 2:15:08.480 I was taken in alive. UM. Just intriguing because if 2:15:08.520 --> 2:15:11.360 I was to watch all this video propaganda beforehand, I 2:15:11.360 --> 2:15:14.080 would have assumed that this guy wanted to die within 2:15:14.120 --> 2:15:17.000 the act. A lot of the stuff was written about 2:15:17.080 --> 2:15:19.720 him doing this to kind of end his life and 2:15:19.920 --> 2:15:22.360 escape into whatever is next. That that's the kind of 2:15:22.560 --> 2:15:26.520 feeling I get a lot of his writing, and yet 2:15:26.600 --> 2:15:32.320 he didn't of the imagery he was putting out, particularly 2:15:32.400 --> 2:15:35.600 the ship with him in in the asylum, as kind 2:15:35.640 --> 2:15:38.640 of evidence of where like part of it was part 2:15:38.680 --> 2:15:40.720 of why I suspected like he had he intended to 2:15:40.720 --> 2:15:43.600 get taken alive. That is, that is that is very possible. 2:15:43.640 --> 2:15:46.400 I mean like because in some ways, yeah, I'm not 2:15:46.400 --> 2:15:50.640 going to speculate, not necessarily the most useful. I'm not 2:15:50.680 --> 2:15:53.760 gonna I'm not gonna speculate further. But there's a lot 2:15:53.760 --> 2:15:56.640 of a lot of possible things to to think about there, 2:15:56.680 --> 2:15:59.520 which I will do so because I have all the stuff. 2:15:59.560 --> 2:16:03.200 Don't know what else, Please, it's you don't don't look 2:16:03.240 --> 2:16:05.720 at this stuff because it's like forbidden, right, don't don't 2:16:06.120 --> 2:16:08.040 don't seek it out because it's like, oh, it's forbidden 2:16:08.080 --> 2:16:10.160 knowledge that they don't want you to see. It's dangerous. 2:16:10.160 --> 2:16:13.080 Oh that's that's not the point. The point is it's bad. 2:16:13.200 --> 2:16:15.000 And now it's also hard to find. So like, just like, 2:16:15.120 --> 2:16:17.000 don't not watching like it's not it's not even it's 2:16:17.040 --> 2:16:20.560 not worth watching. It's not like stuff like like in 2:16:20.600 --> 2:16:23.440 the immediate wake of it, and like, my what happened 2:16:23.480 --> 2:16:25.520 to me? Was I got a fucking headache. You get 2:16:25.560 --> 2:16:30.000 a headache, you feel bad. It's it waste. It wastes 2:16:30.000 --> 2:16:32.720 your time. Like if you if you want to get this, 2:16:33.080 --> 2:16:35.560 like the experience of this without having to like do 2:16:35.720 --> 2:16:37.600 this ship like fucking eat a bunch of like eat 2:16:37.640 --> 2:16:42.480 a ship ton of candy, watch watching Watch, watch Pink 2:16:42.520 --> 2:16:47.280 Floyd's The Wall Jesus Christ, except except if you're eating 2:16:47.280 --> 2:16:49.800 a bunch of candier watching the Wall like it's actually 2:16:49.879 --> 2:16:54.000 before every good, whereas this is just like it's it's 2:16:54.040 --> 2:16:56.600 only the bad parts of that. But I only look 2:16:56.600 --> 2:16:59.760 at this because it's my fucking job and it sucks. 2:17:00.240 --> 2:17:05.640 H Yeah, all right, well, um you know I'm gonna 2:17:05.840 --> 2:17:11.120 I'm gonna say we're probably done here. Um, so I 2:17:11.160 --> 2:17:14.560 don't know until next time. Again, if anyone tries to 2:17:14.640 --> 2:17:17.520 tell you about something that happened on the internet, strike 2:17:17.640 --> 2:17:23.080 them and flee. Remember run hide, fight from people trying 2:17:23.120 --> 2:17:26.120 to tell you about things happening on social media. These 2:17:26.120 --> 2:17:28.960 are this is this is the good strategy going forward. 2:17:47.640 --> 2:17:51.280 All right, podcast it could happen here. It's a podcast 2:17:51.360 --> 2:17:53.840 about the terrible things that are happening going around the 2:17:53.879 --> 2:17:57.760 world and the wonderful people who are trying to fix them. 2:17:58.720 --> 2:18:03.240 What it is today is a podcast with Harek Lubani 2:18:03.520 --> 2:18:06.840 of Glia. And what really inspired me about the story 2:18:06.879 --> 2:18:10.160 and maybe want to share it with you, is that 2:18:10.720 --> 2:18:13.920 it came out of a really dark place. Terek was 2:18:14.400 --> 2:18:18.040 on the ground in Gaza treating gunshot wound victims, and 2:18:18.160 --> 2:18:21.640 a lot of gunshot wound victims, Like I remember reading 2:18:22.120 --> 2:18:25.920 his field testing of the device and just being appalled 2:18:26.320 --> 2:18:28.200 by the number of people who have been shot, a 2:18:28.280 --> 2:18:31.880 lots of them children, and some of the reporting he 2:18:32.000 --> 2:18:34.400 was doing right like, oh, I had this this torniquet 2:18:34.600 --> 2:18:37.200 and we were reusing them and they don't work very 2:18:37.240 --> 2:18:41.400 well on the pediatric application because kids shouldn't be shot, right. 2:18:41.680 --> 2:18:45.400 But instead of getting down, he was able to make 2:18:45.440 --> 2:18:47.360 a solution. And I think that's really important. And I 2:18:47.440 --> 2:18:51.000 really like that even through like this dark and terrible 2:18:51.040 --> 2:18:54.279 stuff that we've all had to experience and he experienced 2:18:54.320 --> 2:18:57.600 in Gaza, he was able to see a positive solution 2:18:57.760 --> 2:19:00.200 away to look after people, to move forward in this case, 2:19:00.240 --> 2:19:04.119 to prevent death and preserve life. And I think it's 2:19:04.160 --> 2:19:06.160 easy to focus on the dark stuff, that's enough of 2:19:06.200 --> 2:19:09.440 it happening, but I think it's important to focus on 2:19:09.640 --> 2:19:12.920 the great people who are doing great things to protect 2:19:13.000 --> 2:19:15.120 and care for other people as well. So that's a 2:19:15.120 --> 2:19:16.720 little bit of what we got today and I hope 2:19:16.720 --> 2:19:20.760 you enjoy it. So I'm here with Tarak Lubani. He's 2:19:20.800 --> 2:19:23.480 from Glia. Their company came across when I was writing 2:19:23.520 --> 2:19:27.520 about three D printed tournic case. Would you like to 2:19:27.560 --> 2:19:29.280 introduce yourself to us a little bit about GLEA and 2:19:29.320 --> 2:19:32.320 what you do there. Thank you so much for having me. 2:19:32.840 --> 2:19:35.000 My name is terrickle Banny. As you had mentioned, I'm 2:19:35.080 --> 2:19:38.920 an emergency physician. I work in Canada in a city 2:19:38.959 --> 2:19:41.480 in Canada called London, and I also work in the 2:19:41.560 --> 2:19:45.640 Gaza strip as an emergency physician as well. Glia was 2:19:45.760 --> 2:19:49.560 really an answer to a problem, the problem being that 2:19:49.879 --> 2:19:52.960 when I see patients in Gaza they don't get the 2:19:53.080 --> 2:19:56.120 same quality of service that I can give to my nations. 2:19:57.040 --> 2:19:59.920 Of course, that's multi factorial, but a big part of 2:20:00.160 --> 2:20:03.640 that has to do with the way in which we 2:20:04.040 --> 2:20:08.920 as uh that the medical profession have medical devices we 2:20:09.040 --> 2:20:12.600 don't release that we don't give access to other people 2:20:12.680 --> 2:20:15.760 to use. And so Glia's purpose was to take the 2:20:15.840 --> 2:20:19.600 most medical devices that doctors use and to make sure 2:20:20.000 --> 2:20:22.959 that they were accessible and available to doctors all over 2:20:23.000 --> 2:20:27.440 the world. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's very cool. And you 2:20:27.520 --> 2:20:29.480 make a number of devices, right, Like I know that 2:20:30.160 --> 2:20:32.080 I first called to you about the torn Q, but 2:20:32.959 --> 2:20:36.480 you make also a stethoscope. Is that right? The stethoscope 2:20:36.760 --> 2:20:39.680 is the calling card of medicine. And so it was 2:20:39.800 --> 2:20:42.680 the first project that we started working on to test 2:20:42.720 --> 2:20:45.080 out the theory. I mean, we started with the theory 2:20:45.400 --> 2:20:48.160 that hey, we can probably make a device that's just 2:20:48.400 --> 2:20:52.040 as good as a three D device, but the costs 2:20:52.240 --> 2:20:55.640 let's say three dollars or even thirty dollars. And that 2:20:55.800 --> 2:20:58.760 was the stuf scope. We tested it, we published the results, 2:20:58.840 --> 2:21:01.240 We proved it was as as good as the Gold 2:21:01.320 --> 2:21:05.000 Standards the Litman Cardiology three at the time, and often 2:21:05.640 --> 2:21:08.640 using it both in our own practices, also making it 2:21:08.720 --> 2:21:12.680 available other people to make for theirs. Okay, yeah, And 2:21:12.800 --> 2:21:15.240 so that's what's really interesting about your company as opposed 2:21:15.240 --> 2:21:19.680 to other companies, right, you're not necessarily like manufacturing and distributing. 2:21:20.040 --> 2:21:25.160 You are providing the designs that allow other people to 2:21:25.240 --> 2:21:26.920 make them, right, And so can you talk about some 2:21:27.000 --> 2:21:30.240 of their like, uh, I know that you use three 2:21:30.280 --> 2:21:32.160 D printing, and I want to talk about that. But also, 2:21:32.280 --> 2:21:35.200 like I remember seeing that the tubing and the setoscope 2:21:35.240 --> 2:21:38.040 comes from the a Coca Cola machine, right, for some 2:21:38.200 --> 2:21:41.880 of those considerations, Yeah, absolutely, the purposes to make these 2:21:42.200 --> 2:21:47.680 devices available to other people for the lowest as possible, 2:21:47.920 --> 2:21:51.080 but also like actually be available. It's no good if 2:21:51.120 --> 2:21:53.480 you can make it for twenty cents, but parts that 2:21:53.560 --> 2:21:57.840 required are nowhere. So that's why we much with a 2:21:58.040 --> 2:22:01.640 basket of items that are more or less earsily available, 2:22:01.959 --> 2:22:04.560 and we made the stuffoscopes out of that. For example, 2:22:05.120 --> 2:22:09.040 you can probably get the very specific kind of earpieces 2:22:09.160 --> 2:22:13.120 that most stuffoscopes have, but they are naturally going to 2:22:13.200 --> 2:22:15.720 be less available and less abundant than if you were 2:22:15.840 --> 2:22:19.520 to use regular earbuds the contact phones. There are way 2:22:19.600 --> 2:22:22.960 more headphones out there than there are stuffoscopes. Therefore, those 2:22:23.040 --> 2:22:26.480 parts are more available, even if, of course there they 2:22:26.520 --> 2:22:29.480 are less expensive. But even if they were slightly more expensive, 2:22:29.959 --> 2:22:33.199 it would be worth it. What we really take away 2:22:33.840 --> 2:22:39.560 is the monopoly and the profit motive. And so by 2:22:39.680 --> 2:22:44.120 doing that, or rather let's say the exorbitant profit that 2:22:44.600 --> 2:22:47.360 medical device companies are making, and by doing that, we're 2:22:47.440 --> 2:22:51.840 really able to to realize the promise of patents. All 2:22:51.920 --> 2:22:54.440 of the devices that we make were patented at one point. 2:22:54.920 --> 2:22:57.959 The promise of patents is that when the patent is over, 2:22:58.080 --> 2:23:01.520 you'll get a chief device. But that promise is not realized. 2:23:01.560 --> 2:23:04.439 The stutoscope is a three hundred year old device basically, 2:23:05.040 --> 2:23:07.600 and the fact that it is not available at the 2:23:07.720 --> 2:23:11.640 highest quality except for three kind of nuts. So that's 2:23:11.680 --> 2:23:13.960 why we started there, and of course moved on to 2:23:14.200 --> 2:23:17.040 more and more complicated devices, much more complicated even than 2:23:17.080 --> 2:23:22.400 the turniket. By now, okay, yeah, can you I remember 2:23:22.480 --> 2:23:24.920 reading because you you you kept a blog. I remember 2:23:24.959 --> 2:23:29.039 on medium where you talked about testing the tourniquate when 2:23:29.200 --> 2:23:32.840 when you were in Gaza and it just a like, 2:23:33.560 --> 2:23:36.520 you know, if you read medical literature then did this 2:23:36.760 --> 2:23:39.560 was just the shocking I remember being absolutely shocked by 2:23:39.560 --> 2:23:43.520 the number of casualties you were in counting and countering, 2:23:43.600 --> 2:23:46.920 and then also like you were saying, like the the 2:23:47.120 --> 2:23:50.800 lack of available tools. So perhaps you could explain like 2:23:51.959 --> 2:23:54.720 a little bit of what you saw there and then 2:23:55.640 --> 2:23:59.440 how these tournicates have been able to help you address 2:23:59.560 --> 2:24:02.880 that like massive disparity and access to care. The tourniquet 2:24:02.959 --> 2:24:07.720 project really started in Gaza because we noticed that after 2:24:07.879 --> 2:24:10.560 one of the wars, the war in two thousand fourteen, 2:24:11.200 --> 2:24:14.680 that we had a particularly high casualty rate, of course, 2:24:15.120 --> 2:24:18.080 but of that there were many deaths that we would 2:24:18.120 --> 2:24:23.160 classify as preventable death's where we felt that had tourniquets 2:24:23.200 --> 2:24:28.080 been available, those patients likely wouldn't have died. Um When 2:24:28.120 --> 2:24:29.880 we started working on it, of course, we knew at 2:24:29.959 --> 2:24:32.160 some point there'd be another war. It is it is 2:24:32.320 --> 2:24:34.920 very common in Gaza for there to be attacked by 2:24:34.959 --> 2:24:38.560 the Israelis. We didn't anticipate for it to happen so fast, 2:24:39.200 --> 2:24:40.960 and for it to happen in a way where the 2:24:41.040 --> 2:24:44.960 tourniquet was so necessary. That, of course, was what what's 2:24:45.000 --> 2:24:49.000 called the Great March of Return, where Palestinians protested on 2:24:49.240 --> 2:24:53.480 mass and one of the Israeli responses was to shoot 2:24:53.560 --> 2:24:57.240 live fire at the protesters, often targeting About eight percent 2:24:57.360 --> 2:24:59.800 of the hits were targeting the arms and the likes, 2:25:00.080 --> 2:25:03.640 which is where turnickets are the most effective. So the 2:25:03.840 --> 2:25:06.960 high number really is going to the way in which 2:25:07.040 --> 2:25:09.040 the Israeli has decided to deal with this protests, and 2:25:09.080 --> 2:25:11.440 the fact that it was a protest rather than a 2:25:11.520 --> 2:25:15.560 specific war, and that meant also that we could predict 2:25:15.680 --> 2:25:18.360 with the relative degree of accuracy where the injuries would be, 2:25:19.000 --> 2:25:22.520 which meant that it was even more important to have 2:25:22.640 --> 2:25:25.680 the right equipment of the right training. It was part 2:25:25.720 --> 2:25:28.440 of an overall strategy. So of course it's not like 2:25:28.680 --> 2:25:32.039 turnickets were the thing that saved lives. Turnickets were part 2:25:32.080 --> 2:25:35.560 of a campaign to train paramedics and to train doctors 2:25:35.720 --> 2:25:38.000 and how to stop bleeding in these kinds of injuries, 2:25:38.560 --> 2:25:40.880 and they were one of the most important tools in 2:25:40.959 --> 2:25:44.680 that campaign, but only part of that campaign. Yeah, of course, 2:25:44.760 --> 2:25:47.000 of course you need ed tools and obviously the education, 2:25:47.080 --> 2:25:49.000 and you can't just slap it on and in the 2:25:49.040 --> 2:25:51.360 person's fine, right, Obviously there's a lot of care afterwards 2:25:51.400 --> 2:25:55.120 which is important too. And can you maybe talk us 2:25:55.200 --> 2:25:58.040 through and you talked about like the promise of patents, right, 2:25:58.080 --> 2:26:00.360 and I think this is important in in exactly what 2:26:00.400 --> 2:26:03.400 we're talking about in torniicates because it's a little different 2:26:03.600 --> 2:26:08.040 to like medic medicines, right, It's a little different with 2:26:08.120 --> 2:26:12.760 medical devices. And so there are existing TORNI kits on 2:26:12.800 --> 2:26:15.680 the market, right, and I think that sort of market 2:26:15.760 --> 2:26:19.600 leading one is it's the cat. Can you explain like 2:26:19.680 --> 2:26:23.760 why and those not getting to people who need them 2:26:23.840 --> 2:26:27.960 desperately in these areas. The problem with the turnickets that 2:26:27.959 --> 2:26:31.119 are available right now kind of falls into a few 2:26:31.160 --> 2:26:34.520 different categories. North American Rescue. The makers of CAT have 2:26:34.760 --> 2:26:39.320 two key patents on the Cat, and as far as 2:26:39.520 --> 2:26:42.879 we can tell, just based on the posture of the company, 2:26:42.920 --> 2:26:46.440 if anybody else were to make exact Cat replicas, they 2:26:46.440 --> 2:26:51.000 will be suited. The people who are willing to then 2:26:51.120 --> 2:26:53.680 make exact Cat replicas tend to be people who are 2:26:53.760 --> 2:26:58.120 unaccountable and largely have not much to lease, and so 2:26:58.360 --> 2:27:02.119 that's why we saw a gla initially um for example, 2:27:02.200 --> 2:27:07.800 with the Ukraine campaign of tourniquets that that were relatively 2:27:07.879 --> 2:27:11.200 low quality, and so you can't just make the device. 2:27:11.320 --> 2:27:13.560 You also have to know that the device will work, 2:27:14.000 --> 2:27:16.360 because you don't want to discover that when you put 2:27:16.400 --> 2:27:19.960 it on armor like and then it fails. Gaza is 2:27:20.360 --> 2:27:22.640 an acid test of all of these things, because not 2:27:22.920 --> 2:27:29.160 only our devices generally not available or expensive, it's kind 2:27:29.200 --> 2:27:31.600 of at the bottom of any purchase list, for example, 2:27:32.240 --> 2:27:37.800 but also in Gaza there's a complete international blockade Israeli led, 2:27:37.879 --> 2:27:40.080 of course, but there are other countries that are that 2:27:40.160 --> 2:27:45.879 are contributory, and that blockade means that equipment can't get 2:27:45.920 --> 2:27:48.160 in so long as the Israelis deem it to be 2:27:48.280 --> 2:27:52.240 of military value. Um. This is where things like dual 2:27:52.360 --> 2:27:56.480 use devices and so on come into play. The tourniquet 2:27:56.600 --> 2:27:58.960 is a medical device. It is it can only be 2:27:59.080 --> 2:28:02.160 a medical device. There is no second use, and so 2:28:02.320 --> 2:28:07.600 it should be exempt. However, even if the Palestinians could 2:28:07.640 --> 2:28:10.160 afford fifty U S dollars per unit, which should be 2:28:10.200 --> 2:28:13.640 the cost to get one in, the Israelis won't let 2:28:13.680 --> 2:28:15.920 them in. So de facto, even though they shouldn't be banned, 2:28:15.920 --> 2:28:19.040 they are de facto banned, and that means that not 2:28:19.440 --> 2:28:23.960 only can we depend on cheap Chinese retailers. Let's say, 2:28:24.480 --> 2:28:28.640 to give us replica turniquets, we actually have to manufacture 2:28:28.640 --> 2:28:32.800 them ourselves. When we open sourced our designs, it was 2:28:33.400 --> 2:28:36.880 with an eye to two things. One making it available 2:28:36.920 --> 2:28:40.039 so that the replica makers can make higher quality replicas. 2:28:40.520 --> 2:28:43.120 They're already making replicas. We may as well give them 2:28:43.160 --> 2:28:46.520 a legal replica rather than a patent break busting replica. 2:28:46.600 --> 2:28:48.680 Not that I think there's anything wrong with that in 2:28:48.760 --> 2:28:54.400 these cases where there's emergencies, but just the same Glia's 2:28:54.480 --> 2:28:58.440 tourniquet doesn't break any patents. And at the same time, 2:28:59.200 --> 2:29:01.440 in addition to think them the ability to make high 2:29:01.520 --> 2:29:04.800 quality turnikets, we can also make high quality turnkets locally 2:29:04.840 --> 2:29:10.280 and domestically. Because of course, national liberation, as it were 2:29:10.480 --> 2:29:12.840 in the medical device space can't come if you can't 2:29:12.879 --> 2:29:16.040 make your own devices. We discovered that during COVID. The 2:29:16.120 --> 2:29:20.080 Palestines have known that for decades now, and we're kind 2:29:20.080 --> 2:29:23.119 of rediscovering it in Ukraine where there just aren't enough 2:29:23.160 --> 2:29:28.520 turniates and so they are forced to improvise or except 2:29:28.560 --> 2:29:31.280 tourniquets that they don't want to accept, right, Yeah, Like 2:29:31.440 --> 2:29:34.480 I think I think COVID was this great example that 2:29:34.560 --> 2:29:37.240 we can't continue to rely on the sort of winds 2:29:37.280 --> 2:29:40.320 of global capital to provide things that we need to survive. 2:29:40.879 --> 2:29:46.680 I think you're manufacturing is fascinating because you're using essentially 2:29:47.440 --> 2:29:50.760 commonly available materials in the three D printer, Is that right? Yeah, 2:29:50.840 --> 2:29:53.400 that's correct. I mean, we're not against using other things, 2:29:53.480 --> 2:29:55.480 they just have to be very simple. For example, are 2:29:55.520 --> 2:29:59.680 electronics use PCBs. You can't three D print electronic circuits 2:29:59.800 --> 2:30:03.280 just yeah, so we use PCBs. But when we design 2:30:03.320 --> 2:30:05.960 our PCBs. There are a couple of ways to design it. 2:30:06.040 --> 2:30:08.280 You can design an eight layer board that can only 2:30:08.360 --> 2:30:10.920 be manufactured in one or two places in the world, 2:30:11.840 --> 2:30:15.160 or you can design a board that's three times the 2:30:15.240 --> 2:30:17.960 size but can be manufactured anywhere in the world. And 2:30:18.080 --> 2:30:21.320 when you're talking about credit card sized devices, if it's 2:30:21.400 --> 2:30:24.400 notebook size instead of credit card size, it doesn't really 2:30:24.520 --> 2:30:28.160 matter that much. For example, the example I'm thinking of 2:30:28.240 --> 2:30:31.880 here as an electric cardiogram, where we took a device 2:30:31.959 --> 2:30:36.000 that had failed UM in the sort of market that 2:30:36.360 --> 2:30:39.640 they the makers open source and they had intended it 2:30:39.760 --> 2:30:42.440 to be a fitness device, and then it didn't work. 2:30:42.520 --> 2:30:44.680 Their company went bankrupt and so they open sourced it. 2:30:45.360 --> 2:30:47.959 So we looked at their schematics all of the problems 2:30:48.000 --> 2:30:50.640 that they had already solved. We said, okay, the problem 2:30:50.680 --> 2:30:52.600 we're going to solve is to make it so that 2:30:52.680 --> 2:30:55.920 this can be manufactured in a high school electronics lab. 2:30:56.840 --> 2:30:59.280 And we were able to achieve that it was bigger. 2:30:59.360 --> 2:31:02.480 It was twice as big, but who cares. The old 2:31:02.520 --> 2:31:04.680 one was half the size of a credit card. You know, 2:31:04.800 --> 2:31:06.960 who cares? You make get a little bit bigger. But 2:31:07.200 --> 2:31:10.560 at the same time, UM you make it much more accessible, 2:31:10.879 --> 2:31:14.400 twice as big, twenty times more accessible. And if some 2:31:14.520 --> 2:31:17.480 of your staff like your tourniquets, it's really um. There's 2:31:17.520 --> 2:31:20.280 not much or any really of a performance trade off 2:31:20.959 --> 2:31:23.000 from what you've seen, right. Indeed, they might be better 2:31:23.200 --> 2:31:27.720 for some pediatric applications if I remember correctly that that's right. 2:31:27.879 --> 2:31:31.119 So when you think of the way in which corporate 2:31:31.200 --> 2:31:33.880 devices are made, they are made to the specifications of 2:31:33.959 --> 2:31:37.800 particular buyers, and the buyers are the people who have 2:31:37.879 --> 2:31:40.280 the money. Who's the buyer for tourniquets? When you think 2:31:40.320 --> 2:31:43.840 about who needs tourniquets consistently, who do you who has 2:31:43.920 --> 2:31:46.360 money to give you turnickets? Who should you market too? 2:31:46.720 --> 2:31:50.280 There's only one sane answer, and that is First world militaries, 2:31:50.720 --> 2:31:55.000 especially occupation militaries or militaries that are engaged in UH 2:31:55.240 --> 2:31:58.560 ground level warfare, who are expected to take small arms 2:31:58.640 --> 2:32:02.080 or i e. D s. And so there are not 2:32:02.240 --> 2:32:04.200 many children who you have to sell to in that 2:32:04.280 --> 2:32:07.560 particular market. There aren't many small women, or even women 2:32:07.600 --> 2:32:09.600 at all they have to sell to in that market. 2:32:10.120 --> 2:32:13.640 So I don't think that North American rescues engineers would 2:32:13.680 --> 2:32:16.720 have any trouble making sure that their TURNI gets worked 2:32:16.760 --> 2:32:20.680 amazingly well for children, But why why would they spend 2:32:21.440 --> 2:32:26.640 one to million dollars doing that work and research when 2:32:27.000 --> 2:32:30.160 that's not their audience and that's not their buyer. For us, 2:32:30.920 --> 2:32:35.680 the normal person, the civilian is the in quotation marks buire. 2:32:36.080 --> 2:32:38.320 They're not the ones buying, but they're the ones who 2:32:38.360 --> 2:32:41.240 are the main consumer, and so they're the ones who 2:32:41.280 --> 2:32:46.120 we target. In Gaza, specifically, of the population is under 2:32:46.160 --> 2:32:49.040 the age of fourteen. You'd have to be crazy to 2:32:49.160 --> 2:32:51.080 go out there and put a tourniquet out that only 2:32:51.160 --> 2:32:54.640 works on big, burly men. So that's that's why we 2:32:54.720 --> 2:32:57.200 were we were driven to do that. And as for 2:32:57.280 --> 2:33:01.200 the performance trade offs, yeah, you're right. The the what 2:33:01.320 --> 2:33:03.959 we learned about spec sheets on lots of these devices 2:33:04.640 --> 2:33:08.120 is that they're made up. There isn't really a great 2:33:08.160 --> 2:33:11.440 way to know how well elternic it works. Unfortunately, there 2:33:11.560 --> 2:33:15.160 isn't a really great way to know how well stetoscope works. 2:33:15.760 --> 2:33:18.120 And so some of the first work we did was 2:33:18.200 --> 2:33:21.560 actually designing some tests so that we can say, okay, well, 2:33:21.680 --> 2:33:23.880 here's how you prove that the stutoscope works as well 2:33:23.920 --> 2:33:27.280 as that stutoscope, or here's how you prove that you 2:33:27.320 --> 2:33:30.360 know this works as well as that, and those testing 2:33:30.400 --> 2:33:33.680 protocols we made them open source and easily available too. 2:33:34.200 --> 2:33:36.440 For example, if you want to test the stethoscope, you 2:33:36.520 --> 2:33:39.440 can do that with a pair of headphones, a microphone, 2:33:39.840 --> 2:33:42.279 and the Hello Kitty balloon. That's how we did it originally. 2:33:42.920 --> 2:33:46.959 Could we have spent ten dollars making that test right, Yeah, 2:33:47.040 --> 2:33:50.200 we could have, but that wouldn't have helped us in 2:33:50.400 --> 2:33:54.320 terms of helping other people make stuftoscopes wherever they are. Yeah, 2:33:54.520 --> 2:33:57.640 that's very cool. And then by open sourcing that test, 2:33:57.760 --> 2:34:00.840 you allow for other people who have ideas or sort 2:34:00.840 --> 2:34:03.680 of models for their own improvements or different designs, that 2:34:03.840 --> 2:34:06.200 they can then use that test right and continue to 2:34:06.320 --> 2:34:09.360 improve and share their improvements with others. I do not 2:34:09.520 --> 2:34:12.840 want to work on stethoscopes anymore. I want to people 2:34:12.840 --> 2:34:15.080 to take it up. And it doesn't mean that I won't, 2:34:15.160 --> 2:34:18.879 of course I will. But my favorite thing is when 2:34:18.920 --> 2:34:21.840 somebody sends a message and says, hey, I like what 2:34:21.959 --> 2:34:24.480 you've done. Here's how I think it could be better. 2:34:24.879 --> 2:34:27.960 I love those messages. I love them, and you know what, 2:34:28.200 --> 2:34:31.200 nine out of ton of those ideas don't work out. 2:34:31.280 --> 2:34:36.840 They don't pan out. But like our stethoscope since two 2:34:36.840 --> 2:34:39.400 thousands seventeen, all of the improvements have been from other 2:34:39.480 --> 2:34:41.880 people because we haven't had the time and money to 2:34:41.959 --> 2:34:44.520 work on it. But we have been open minded, have 2:34:44.640 --> 2:34:47.680 incorporated lots of design changes that other people in the 2:34:47.760 --> 2:34:51.960 community have suggested. That's a good thing. It's good for everybody. Yeah, 2:34:52.240 --> 2:34:54.080 and I think it does an excellent job at getting it. 2:34:54.240 --> 2:34:59.440 They like the fundamental conceit of a Dragon device development model, right, 2:34:59.480 --> 2:35:04.080 which is uh, which isn't true. Actually, that there's massive 2:35:04.200 --> 2:35:05.840 R and D costs and those R and D costs 2:35:05.879 --> 2:35:08.200 have to be recouped by charging a massive amount for 2:35:08.280 --> 2:35:11.119 a period of time and making access to that medicinal 2:35:11.200 --> 2:35:14.560 device a privilege, not right, and then eventually the cost 2:35:14.640 --> 2:35:16.720 will come down. They often don't, and then everyone will 2:35:16.760 --> 2:35:19.560 have activities thing And it's like, it's been my experience 2:35:19.600 --> 2:35:21.520 that it doesn't work that way. But what you've shown 2:35:21.640 --> 2:35:24.320 is an alternative right that people want to help and 2:35:24.520 --> 2:35:26.760 that that they don't that there's not a need for 2:35:26.879 --> 2:35:30.800 this like price gouging to facilitate the improvement in this technology. 2:35:31.120 --> 2:35:35.480 Is that fair? We're not taking a purely altruistic model here. 2:35:36.040 --> 2:35:39.720 People are generally improving the stethoscope for their own uses, 2:35:40.240 --> 2:35:43.000 so there is a self interested aspect, if you want 2:35:43.040 --> 2:35:46.240 to present it that way. What we realized is that 2:35:46.640 --> 2:35:51.880 actually the most useful way to develop a device is 2:35:51.920 --> 2:35:53.680 to make it as good as possible and release it 2:35:54.200 --> 2:35:56.680 and then have other people who want to improve it 2:35:56.959 --> 2:36:00.720 have a capacity to share back to you. So as 2:36:00.800 --> 2:36:04.120 much as I I believe in altruism and I do 2:36:04.280 --> 2:36:07.760 think every time that I've seen people collaborate, I've seen 2:36:07.800 --> 2:36:12.240 a tremendous amount of it, this more resembles the open 2:36:12.320 --> 2:36:15.440 source software model, where which is actually the world I 2:36:15.560 --> 2:36:19.400 came from. I came from the free software model, where yes, 2:36:19.840 --> 2:36:22.480 you do things just for the fun of it, but 2:36:22.640 --> 2:36:25.600 also very large corporations are involved. For example, some of 2:36:25.640 --> 2:36:28.840 the stuffoscope's improvements happened because the lab needed to use 2:36:28.959 --> 2:36:32.360 it for some experiments on animals, and so they made 2:36:32.440 --> 2:36:37.520 modifications and they fed them back. Amazing, that's fantastic, And 2:36:37.879 --> 2:36:40.280 but that that was totally self interested. That they knew 2:36:40.360 --> 2:36:42.480 that it would cost them significantly less to build on 2:36:42.560 --> 2:36:45.080 our work and it would cost them nothing to share 2:36:45.120 --> 2:36:50.640 back their their contributions. So it's you know, we're not 2:36:50.760 --> 2:36:54.560 going out there trying to to prove that everybody is 2:36:54.680 --> 2:36:57.600 good at heart, even though I do actually think that's 2:36:57.680 --> 2:37:02.800 fundamentally true. What what we're doing is showing through this 2:37:03.000 --> 2:37:07.920 model the devices can advance with relatively little upfront costs 2:37:08.520 --> 2:37:13.040 and with the contribution of many, many members. Yeah, yeah, 2:37:13.080 --> 2:37:14.880 that's a view phrase it really well. I think that 2:37:15.080 --> 2:37:17.480 people have this self interest which also serves out of 2:37:17.560 --> 2:37:21.800 people's interests, and and it's like, yeah, I've seen it 2:37:21.800 --> 2:37:24.840 in all kinds of open source communities, like we've reported 2:37:24.879 --> 2:37:27.960 before on three D printed guns, which is obviously it's 2:37:28.040 --> 2:37:31.400 kind of a different end of the spectrum. But it's 2:37:31.440 --> 2:37:34.960 fascinating to see this global exchange. And I'm sure you 2:37:35.040 --> 2:37:37.680 have people. You've mentioned that there are people in Myanma 2:37:37.680 --> 2:37:41.320 who are who are printing your tornic case. Right. We 2:37:41.440 --> 2:37:45.680 were amazed when people from Myanmar had reached out and 2:37:45.800 --> 2:37:49.840 said that we've senior tourniquet and we want to implement that. 2:37:49.879 --> 2:37:53.080 We have situation that's very similar to Gaza. We thought 2:37:53.520 --> 2:37:57.960 that's exactly what we want. What they did was two things. One, 2:37:58.520 --> 2:38:02.720 they took our instructions and they used them, but then 2:38:02.800 --> 2:38:06.120 they also fed back to us how those instructions were incomplete, 2:38:06.600 --> 2:38:09.200 how they could be better, and some design changes that 2:38:09.240 --> 2:38:14.360 made their lives better again amazing by them using it, 2:38:15.000 --> 2:38:21.920 by them taking, they also gave. And that's the sort 2:38:21.959 --> 2:38:25.440 of relationship, the kind of solidarity that we've seen. Whatever 2:38:25.600 --> 2:38:30.880 other people have used our devices, we've noticed that they take, 2:38:31.200 --> 2:38:33.480 and it's it's not a problem if people in and 2:38:33.600 --> 2:38:36.160 me and mar had just taken and not given anything back, 2:38:36.280 --> 2:38:39.000 that's fine too, because it doesn't take anything away from 2:38:39.120 --> 2:38:42.160 us to share. This is this is a kind of 2:38:42.280 --> 2:38:45.800 sharing where the more you share, the more there's potential 2:38:45.879 --> 2:38:49.000 for benefit, but there's never a loss. You never lose 2:38:49.080 --> 2:38:52.600 by sharing in that sense. We're not also trying to 2:38:52.680 --> 2:38:56.240 present it as though we need people to share for 2:38:56.360 --> 2:38:59.000 us to feel that this model works. We don't. But 2:38:59.320 --> 2:39:01.879 we're already may king it anyway. We're already using it anyway. 2:39:01.959 --> 2:39:04.560 We're sharing, and some people help out by contributing black 2:39:04.640 --> 2:39:07.600 and some people don't. It's it seems to me to 2:39:07.680 --> 2:39:11.160 be the most effective way to develop devices for low 2:39:11.240 --> 2:39:13.360 costs and make sure that they get out to where 2:39:13.360 --> 2:39:17.240 they need to be. Yeah, because they can century and 2:39:17.400 --> 2:39:19.240 people who need them can find them. As you found 2:39:19.280 --> 2:39:21.960 out right like people across the world, do you have 2:39:22.040 --> 2:39:25.039 a sense of where else they're being used? The turnickets 2:39:25.120 --> 2:39:27.960 right now are being used in Gaza, in Ukraine and 2:39:28.400 --> 2:39:31.560 in me and mar if they're being used in other places. 2:39:31.680 --> 2:39:33.959 Were not really aware of it, but people aren't compelled 2:39:34.000 --> 2:39:38.080 to make us aware of it. Um and and all 2:39:38.200 --> 2:39:43.080 three of those locations have moved forward the project tremendously. 2:39:43.520 --> 2:39:49.840 For example, for Ukraine, Uh, the Ukrainian support people weren't 2:39:50.000 --> 2:39:53.360 really able to contribute so much their own ability to 2:39:53.480 --> 2:39:56.480 construct and make, but they were able to contribute really 2:39:56.560 --> 2:40:01.840 important research, financial and testing capabilit lidaes and so of 2:40:02.000 --> 2:40:05.440 course a project like this costs money. They're like, hey, look, 2:40:05.480 --> 2:40:08.600 you know, we don't have farms print farms, but we 2:40:08.720 --> 2:40:10.800 do have some cash that we want to put into it. 2:40:11.040 --> 2:40:14.440 And we were able to use that money very very effectively, 2:40:14.440 --> 2:40:16.400 more effectively than if they would have bought the pieces 2:40:16.959 --> 2:40:20.080 to then create the capacity for them to go and 2:40:20.160 --> 2:40:23.520 make their own turn accounts. Okay, so yeah, let's talk 2:40:23.520 --> 2:40:26.480 about that. That's fascinating and uh, and we could maybe 2:40:26.560 --> 2:40:31.560 contrasted to a sort of another model, right like if 2:40:32.040 --> 2:40:34.240 UM because you you understand you're able to go to 2:40:34.400 --> 2:40:38.959 Ukraine and help them set up as opposed to Yeah, 2:40:39.000 --> 2:40:40.880 it would have taken months, I imagine to do that 2:40:41.120 --> 2:40:44.160 with I don't know how they make the cats, but 2:40:44.360 --> 2:40:47.720 they like they molded or something. But with with a 2:40:47.800 --> 2:40:51.440 non sort of with a non open source, non printed model, 2:40:51.480 --> 2:40:53.680 like to set up a tournicate factory in Ukraine or 2:40:53.720 --> 2:40:56.640 Poland would take months. Right, yes, absolutely, but you're not 2:40:56.760 --> 2:41:00.680 going to. There's two reasons why Northern I can rescue. 2:41:00.959 --> 2:41:03.280 I'll just call them now from here on out, won't 2:41:03.280 --> 2:41:07.320 do that. One of them is that that conflict at 2:41:07.400 --> 2:41:10.480 some point will end. It's very expensive to set up 2:41:10.480 --> 2:41:13.800 production lines. And the other thing is the more tourniquets 2:41:13.840 --> 2:41:16.320 you put into the market, the cheaper tourniquets get, you know, 2:41:16.440 --> 2:41:18.880 supply and demand. Like we learned that one pretty well 2:41:18.959 --> 2:41:23.600 from capitalism. And so they have an inherent disincentive, whether 2:41:23.680 --> 2:41:26.200 they recognize it or not, whether it's conscious or not. 2:41:26.879 --> 2:41:29.520 North American Rescue and all these companies have an inherent 2:41:29.640 --> 2:41:34.720 disincentive in flooding the market with tourniquets, whereas we do not. 2:41:35.600 --> 2:41:37.840 For us, it's the opposite. The more people we lose, 2:41:38.400 --> 2:41:41.960 pretty much, GLIA loses about ten to twenty dollars per 2:41:42.000 --> 2:41:46.039 tourniquet that we manufacture, we have no incentive to keep 2:41:46.080 --> 2:41:48.040 doing it, and we want other people to do it 2:41:48.680 --> 2:41:53.040 because we want as many tourniquets to be provided as possible. 2:41:53.680 --> 2:41:56.519 What we do then is we heavily subsidize the tourniquets 2:41:56.760 --> 2:42:00.080 using our own internal funds and and fundraising. That that 2:42:00.200 --> 2:42:02.800 we do with the goal of getting them out there 2:42:02.840 --> 2:42:06.600 so that deaths can be prevented. And so we want 2:42:06.800 --> 2:42:09.880 other people producing. When I go there, every tourniquet somebody 2:42:09.920 --> 2:42:12.800 else makes instead of me is less headache for me, 2:42:13.080 --> 2:42:16.040 is less pain for me, and is less financial loss 2:42:16.080 --> 2:42:20.680 for me and for glee. Of course, so our incentives 2:42:20.720 --> 2:42:25.880 are different. They want a shortage, consciously you're not, and 2:42:26.040 --> 2:42:29.800 we want an abundance. We want everybody to turnique in 2:42:29.879 --> 2:42:34.160 their pocket. Now, that's that's our goal. Can you talk 2:42:34.200 --> 2:42:36.520 a little bit about your experiences in Ukraine? Give with 2:42:36.560 --> 2:42:39.879 that pretty recently? Right, Ukraine is a very very complicated 2:42:39.920 --> 2:42:45.080 subject when it comes to tourniquets, because the tourniquet wasn't 2:42:46.560 --> 2:42:52.119 this h I'm gonna mind my words very carefully. I'm 2:42:52.160 --> 2:42:56.560 not Ukrainian, I'm not a Ukrainian doctor, and my experience, 2:42:56.600 --> 2:43:00.160 there is very limited. I am in solidarity with the 2:43:00.240 --> 2:43:04.160 medical community in Ukraine, and part of being in solidarity 2:43:05.040 --> 2:43:10.280 with a medical community is recognizing that even when there 2:43:10.320 --> 2:43:14.480 are weaknesses, it is not my place to insert myself 2:43:14.520 --> 2:43:18.959 into their processes. And so the way that the Ukrainians 2:43:19.000 --> 2:43:24.400 have approached tourniquets is at the outset to ban all 2:43:24.480 --> 2:43:29.240 three D printed tourniquets and two basically make it so 2:43:29.360 --> 2:43:33.280 that only what they considered to be high quality tournike its, 2:43:33.360 --> 2:43:36.800 mainly the CAT and another another one or two models 2:43:37.600 --> 2:43:42.520 were available in there. This unfortunately created a tremendous shortage, 2:43:43.400 --> 2:43:46.519 and the other thing that functionally happened was a disconnect 2:43:47.040 --> 2:43:50.440 between the policy makers within the medical community and the 2:43:50.520 --> 2:43:53.680 people on the ground. The people on the ground, of course, 2:43:54.160 --> 2:43:58.560 are doing whatever they can to provide care wherever they can, 2:43:59.360 --> 2:44:02.280 and the policymakers are a little bit more disconnected from 2:44:02.320 --> 2:44:08.040 that and so have different considerations. The shortage then creates 2:44:08.200 --> 2:44:13.440 this um difficulty. You know, there are of course three 2:44:13.480 --> 2:44:17.879 D printed turnikeates aren't accepted officially in Ukraine, but there 2:44:17.959 --> 2:44:21.000 are an abundance of three D printed tourniquets in Ukraine 2:44:21.560 --> 2:44:24.920 because the people on the ground are accepting them um, 2:44:25.520 --> 2:44:29.599 and what we see is a kind of grassroots experimentation 2:44:29.800 --> 2:44:34.320 with how it is that we can prevent deaths. The 2:44:34.440 --> 2:44:38.680 other difficulty is that tourniquets are a tool, and in 2:44:38.800 --> 2:44:42.040 bad hands, this tool isn't going to work, even if 2:44:42.080 --> 2:44:45.560 it's a great tool. And so one of the things 2:44:45.680 --> 2:44:48.280 that I realized, and I think everybody at this point, 2:44:48.720 --> 2:44:51.439 I'm not saying anything that's new or unknown to the community, 2:44:52.320 --> 2:44:57.040 we all realize that without appropriate training and how to 2:44:57.160 --> 2:45:00.400 use a tourniquet, they're not going to work. Um. And 2:45:00.560 --> 2:45:03.360 so even high quality tourniquets out there in the field 2:45:03.360 --> 2:45:07.880 are failing because they're being used improperly. It's causing unnecessary deaths. 2:45:09.200 --> 2:45:10.640 So I don't know how deep you want to get 2:45:10.680 --> 2:45:13.760 into that experience in Ukraine, but I think what we 2:45:13.879 --> 2:45:17.480 can say is that it's important to be in solidarity 2:45:17.560 --> 2:45:21.160 with that community, and as such, we're providing them all 2:45:21.280 --> 2:45:23.760 of the experience that we have and all of the 2:45:23.840 --> 2:45:28.720 capability that we have to produce tourniquets that the Ukrainians themselves, 2:45:28.959 --> 2:45:33.640 both officially and on the UH in the front lines, 2:45:34.120 --> 2:45:37.760 are able to use and and feel are actually safe 2:45:37.800 --> 2:45:41.560 for their patients. Yeah. Yeah, that's a difficult situation. I think. 2:45:41.879 --> 2:45:44.880 Obviously a lot of what's happening in Ukraine has been 2:45:45.640 --> 2:45:50.120 necessarily like like rushed, and it's somewhat graps chaotic is 2:45:50.160 --> 2:45:52.360 in it's their own word, but it took a while 2:45:52.440 --> 2:45:57.400 for people to fully sort of understand that the necessities 2:45:57.440 --> 2:46:00.200 of the scale and the scale of the conflict, or 2:46:00.200 --> 2:46:03.440 perhaps understand this is still the wrong word, but yet 2:46:03.520 --> 2:46:05.280 to come up with the most of the way to 2:46:05.320 --> 2:46:07.720 do the least harm. I guess that's such a great 2:46:07.760 --> 2:46:09.680 way of to frame it. And I think even from 2:46:09.720 --> 2:46:11.920 your experience as you see that very often in these 2:46:12.000 --> 2:46:14.760 situations that's the name of the game. It's not even 2:46:14.840 --> 2:46:17.560 doing what you know is best, but rather figuring out 2:46:17.640 --> 2:46:21.640 what the least horst scenario was. Yeah, yeah, so often, 2:46:22.000 --> 2:46:26.160 I think, and it's very easier I think, to to 2:46:26.360 --> 2:46:30.760 like backseat drive these things right from from our positions 2:46:30.800 --> 2:46:35.320 of safety and sort of plenty, you know, to say, oh, 2:46:35.360 --> 2:46:37.480 what should them, they should do that, which I think 2:46:37.520 --> 2:46:39.400 you did very well to explain that the first and 2:46:39.480 --> 2:46:41.480 most important thing is to be instolid arity with the 2:46:41.560 --> 2:46:47.720 people there and to hopefully allow their experience to guide 2:46:47.760 --> 2:46:50.040 us in how we can best help them to to 2:46:50.480 --> 2:46:53.879 prevent death, prevent harm, and so can you talk about 2:46:53.920 --> 2:46:55.640 what you were able to do there, what sort of 2:46:56.400 --> 2:46:59.880 interventions could you make to hopefully help prevent more dying. 2:47:00.360 --> 2:47:02.760 The main thing that that we did in terms of 2:47:02.920 --> 2:47:05.760 so I I kind of was there in with two 2:47:05.879 --> 2:47:08.960 hats on. One of them was the tourniquet manufacturing hat 2:47:09.640 --> 2:47:12.040 and the other one was as an emergency doctor. Because remember, 2:47:12.120 --> 2:47:15.959 fundamentally what brought me to medical devices in the first 2:47:15.959 --> 2:47:18.880 place was that I was an emergency doctor having problems 2:47:19.440 --> 2:47:25.480 actually uh caring for my patients. As a tourniquet manufacturer 2:47:26.560 --> 2:47:30.520 basically was about engaging with other people who are making 2:47:30.560 --> 2:47:33.959 and using tourniquets to understand some of the roadblocks and problems. 2:47:34.800 --> 2:47:36.720 One of the biggest ones is that there isn't a 2:47:36.840 --> 2:47:41.960 great way to test units of tournikets. So traditionally tourniquets 2:47:41.959 --> 2:47:45.160 are tested by design. Uh Nar says, here's our design 2:47:45.240 --> 2:47:47.520 and here's how we tested it, and then we accept 2:47:47.640 --> 2:47:50.320 that this particular company will make this particular device to 2:47:50.400 --> 2:47:54.560 this particular standard. But in the Ukraine, especially with the 2:47:54.600 --> 2:47:57.160 presence of replicas and three D to tourniquets, there became 2:47:57.200 --> 2:48:01.000 a new problem how do you test each unit rather 2:48:01.120 --> 2:48:06.400 than a specific line, and working on that, I don't 2:48:06.440 --> 2:48:07.840 know how into the leads you want me to get, 2:48:07.879 --> 2:48:11.760 but working on that is still a problem that is unsolved, 2:48:11.800 --> 2:48:13.840 but has been one of the biggest issues that we've 2:48:13.879 --> 2:48:19.800 been dealing with on the emergency medicine side. Of course, 2:48:20.000 --> 2:48:22.440 when I provide direct care to patients, I was in 2:48:22.520 --> 2:48:25.800 a hospital on one of the communities, on the front line, 2:48:25.879 --> 2:48:29.040 on one of the fronts, and so providing direct care 2:48:29.240 --> 2:48:33.720 became important. And working with the doctors, many of whom 2:48:33.840 --> 2:48:37.800 didn't really experience that much have that much experience with 2:48:37.879 --> 2:48:42.400 trauma patients, so working with them to share our experiences 2:48:42.480 --> 2:48:46.120 from GAZA in low resource trauma medicine, and also to 2:48:46.280 --> 2:48:49.920 gain from them their experiences because of course their scenarios 2:48:49.959 --> 2:48:53.400 and situations are different. It's more artillery based rather than 2:48:53.640 --> 2:48:58.000 small arms fire or um sort of bombing based, so 2:48:58.160 --> 2:49:00.480 they're they're different scenarios. I had a ought to learn 2:49:00.560 --> 2:49:03.600 from them. I did, and um I tried to contribute 2:49:03.640 --> 2:49:07.200 some of our experiences as well. The training I think 2:49:07.440 --> 2:49:10.119 is probably the number one problem right now, but that's 2:49:10.640 --> 2:49:12.880 my personal opinion. Is one doctor who was there for 2:49:12.879 --> 2:49:16.200 a limited period of time so that that individual unit 2:49:16.280 --> 2:49:19.320 tests that you're you're working towards is um because I 2:49:19.400 --> 2:49:22.640 know in theory, at least a CAT is a single 2:49:22.800 --> 2:49:27.040 use device, right and so in theory, if you if 2:49:27.080 --> 2:49:29.440 you just slapped it on something that could measure pressure, 2:49:29.440 --> 2:49:32.920 and Titan did that, devices and being used and shouldn't 2:49:32.920 --> 2:49:36.119 be used again to provide care. Is that the bottom 2:49:36.160 --> 2:49:38.040 that you're running up against or is it sort of 2:49:38.120 --> 2:49:40.960 making a way to test things it's replicable and cheap 2:49:41.040 --> 2:49:45.040 and accessible. Reusability was the number one problem that we 2:49:45.200 --> 2:49:49.200 tried to tackle in Gaza because we couldn't print turniquets 2:49:49.200 --> 2:49:52.200 as fast as they're being used, and so we use 2:49:52.320 --> 2:49:55.120 them up to ten times. And when I was in 2:49:55.280 --> 2:50:00.080 the hospital, I walked by this I V poll with 2:50:00.160 --> 2:50:03.040 a bunch of tourniquets hanging from it. To night instantly 2:50:03.160 --> 2:50:06.680 recognized what I was looking at. That was a tourniquet 2:50:06.800 --> 2:50:10.400 rewashed station in which tourniquets that came off of patients 2:50:10.440 --> 2:50:13.800 who are being rewashed, dried, and then sent back out 2:50:13.840 --> 2:50:17.560 into the field. Whatever you think the standards are for 2:50:17.600 --> 2:50:21.640 a tourniquet. When there's this level of of shortage, that's 2:50:21.680 --> 2:50:24.360 what's going to happen. That's what happened in Gaza, and 2:50:24.440 --> 2:50:26.600 that's what happened in the Ukraine. That's what I saw 2:50:26.640 --> 2:50:29.560 in my own eyes. Of course, we don't need to 2:50:29.720 --> 2:50:32.560 stretch that far anymore to recognize this. What were people 2:50:32.600 --> 2:50:35.320 doing with the ninety five masks two years ago in 2:50:35.480 --> 2:50:38.520 my hospital. We were holding them, storing them, washing them, 2:50:38.600 --> 2:50:42.160 reusing them. So this is something that we see whenever 2:50:42.240 --> 2:50:45.520 there's a shortage, and it makes the unit testing that 2:50:45.680 --> 2:50:47.920 much more important because if you could take an already 2:50:48.000 --> 2:50:51.160 used tourniquet and assure that it will succeed the next 2:50:51.200 --> 2:50:54.800 time it's being used, that is so valuable, so valuable, 2:50:54.800 --> 2:50:56.960 and it cuts down every tourniquet you can reuse as 2:50:56.959 --> 2:50:59.200 a tourniquet. You don't have to import, you don't have 2:50:59.280 --> 2:51:00.800 to buy, you don't have to package, you don't have 2:51:00.920 --> 2:51:06.360 to ship over all of these lines. Yeah, yeah, of course, 2:51:06.680 --> 2:51:09.560 And I think it's probably we should probably address like 2:51:09.800 --> 2:51:15.280 the the ways in which they can fail because I think, uh, look, 2:51:15.480 --> 2:51:17.440 just people in the United to date, if in an 2:51:17.520 --> 2:51:23.000 extremely like resource rich setting, right, we'll probably have knownly 2:51:23.040 --> 2:51:26.600 are unknowingly acquired trying to get on Amazon or somewhere 2:51:26.640 --> 2:51:29.600 else eBay that that might not be a real one, 2:51:29.840 --> 2:51:33.520 and so I want it's real, but we might not 2:51:33.600 --> 2:51:37.440 be a reliable one. Can you explain like like how 2:51:37.520 --> 2:51:40.280 they fail and what the consequences of that failure are. 2:51:40.920 --> 2:51:43.680 There are two kinds of failures when we talk about 2:51:43.720 --> 2:51:45.720 turnick outs. One of them is what we would call 2:51:45.840 --> 2:51:49.600 a technical failure, and the other one is a clinical failure. 2:51:50.360 --> 2:51:54.199 A technical failure is the easiest one for most people 2:51:54.280 --> 2:51:58.640 to spot. The tourniquet literally breaks in your hand. And 2:51:59.080 --> 2:52:02.160 that said, you hear a crack, you see something crack, 2:52:02.360 --> 2:52:06.360 you see a break, things fall apart the end, and 2:52:06.560 --> 2:52:11.200 so one of the things that we we want is 2:52:11.360 --> 2:52:15.880 to minimize these by over engineering. So, for example, the 2:52:16.000 --> 2:52:20.880 first GLIA tourniquet was engineered to spec you're supposed to 2:52:20.920 --> 2:52:22.520 be able to turn it three times, and so we 2:52:22.600 --> 2:52:24.760 made it so you can turn it three times. And 2:52:24.879 --> 2:52:27.480 then what I realized is that even I, who is 2:52:27.560 --> 2:52:30.360 like super well trained, I would be in the field 2:52:30.560 --> 2:52:33.440 running while my eyes were full of tear gas while 2:52:33.520 --> 2:52:36.640 people are shooting, and I didn't I'd forget did I 2:52:36.720 --> 2:52:39.360 turn it two times? Three times? So we over we 2:52:39.440 --> 2:52:43.280 started over engineering the tourniquets at a certain point. Of course, 2:52:43.360 --> 2:52:45.440 every turnikid is going to break. You turn it enough times, 2:52:45.560 --> 2:52:49.800 every turniquet is going to break. But that's not necessarily 2:52:50.200 --> 2:52:51.920 going to be the case if you have even a 2:52:52.000 --> 2:52:54.160 moderate amount of training. I'm going to turn it for 2:52:54.360 --> 2:52:56.360 five times, but I'm not going to turn it twenty times. 2:52:57.800 --> 2:53:03.080 So the technical failures are one kind of failure. The 2:53:03.160 --> 2:53:06.120 other one is clinical failure. Now here's something that I 2:53:06.280 --> 2:53:11.760 wonder if you knew about tourniquets from the gold Standard 2:53:11.800 --> 2:53:16.320 Company fail They fail on application, and that number goes 2:53:16.400 --> 2:53:20.960 up to if you were to check sixty seconds after application. 2:53:22.080 --> 2:53:24.560 So what does this tell us? What this tells us 2:53:24.640 --> 2:53:27.680 is a clinical failure is actually the important marker here, 2:53:28.640 --> 2:53:31.160 because we know turniquets break, and we know turniquets fail 2:53:31.240 --> 2:53:34.000 in general, especially turnickets that have been in some g 2:53:34.320 --> 2:53:39.760 i's pocket in Afghanistan for six months, those ones that 2:53:39.800 --> 2:53:43.400 their failure rate can go even higher. And so what 2:53:43.600 --> 2:53:47.480 we train people to do is to recognize clinical success. 2:53:47.959 --> 2:53:52.480 Put on a tourniquet, did the blood stop? No? Put 2:53:52.560 --> 2:53:57.160 on a second turniquet, did the blood stop No? Try 2:53:57.160 --> 2:54:00.560 a third one if you have them, obviously, And so 2:54:01.000 --> 2:54:04.560 the routine training involves applying a second turniket, and one 2:54:04.600 --> 2:54:08.680 of the like happiest moments for me. I mean, this 2:54:08.840 --> 2:54:11.160 is obviously better sweet, but it was when I saw 2:54:11.879 --> 2:54:15.560 a patient who was brought in by a medic who 2:54:15.600 --> 2:54:18.000 I had I had been in the training four and 2:54:18.080 --> 2:54:21.040 he had applied to turnickets to a guy who certainly 2:54:21.080 --> 2:54:24.080 would have died had he had he not had the 2:54:24.160 --> 2:54:27.119 turniquet applied to him. You know, I was exaguinating so much, 2:54:27.280 --> 2:54:30.800 injury so severe that he needed a couple of turnickets 2:54:30.840 --> 2:54:35.320 to really get it under control. So it's it's where 2:54:36.040 --> 2:54:39.039 we have to recognize that there is no magic tool. 2:54:39.480 --> 2:54:42.760 This is part of an overall program. There's no three 2:54:42.840 --> 2:54:45.480 D printer that's going to train people just gonna make 2:54:45.520 --> 2:54:47.440 you stuff and then you have to do the rest 2:54:47.480 --> 2:54:51.880 of it, right, Yeah, Yeah, So I think if we, uh, 2:54:52.400 --> 2:54:54.880 we should look maybe at the fact that like I 2:54:54.959 --> 2:54:57.160 live in the United States and you're in Canada, and 2:54:58.280 --> 2:55:01.680 I think there were like three mass shooting is yesterday, right, 2:55:01.760 --> 2:55:06.600 that they that the threat of violence is certainly at 2:55:06.720 --> 2:55:11.440 a high for recent times in h for why a 2:55:11.520 --> 2:55:14.520 more diverse range of people. Right, There's always been violence 2:55:14.560 --> 2:55:16.880 in this country. There's always been violence against certain groups 2:55:16.920 --> 2:55:20.720 of people disproportion in this country, but people are probably 2:55:20.800 --> 2:55:24.040 more concerned with treating down to your wounds, and they 2:55:24.040 --> 2:55:26.920 would have been ten years ago. So if someone was 2:55:27.040 --> 2:55:32.600 looking to make one of your devices, how can they 2:55:32.720 --> 2:55:35.200 do that? And they ensure or do their best to 2:55:35.360 --> 2:55:37.240 ensure that they are doing so in a way which 2:55:37.280 --> 2:55:39.920 gives them the best chance of success. At the moment, 2:55:40.000 --> 2:55:42.600 I would say to the individual maker, don't do it, 2:55:43.120 --> 2:55:47.240 not for a life threatening situation. If then, do individual 2:55:47.320 --> 2:55:50.400 makers want to make turnikuts, then they're going to have 2:55:50.520 --> 2:55:53.800 to be proficient at three big things. One of them 2:55:53.879 --> 2:55:56.840 is plastics three D printing, ensuring that the quality of 2:55:56.879 --> 2:56:00.280 the plastic is good. The other one is sewing, that 2:56:00.480 --> 2:56:05.600 is to say, assembling sod stuff. And the third one 2:56:06.200 --> 2:56:10.240 is is quality assurance, because even done perfectly, a certain 2:56:10.320 --> 2:56:12.840 number of tourniquets aren't going to make it. And that 2:56:13.000 --> 2:56:16.240 quality assurance is both at the moment of manufacture and 2:56:16.400 --> 2:56:21.480 then over time, because of course all devices deteriorate over time, 2:56:22.000 --> 2:56:26.120 but tourniquets have such an important role that you have 2:56:26.240 --> 2:56:28.840 to check them periodically to make sure everything is okay. 2:56:29.680 --> 2:56:33.480 So I would say to the individual maker, don't or 2:56:33.560 --> 2:56:36.080 if you do do it as an exercise rather than 2:56:36.200 --> 2:56:40.200 as an actual tool. If somebody is in an emergency situation, 2:56:40.280 --> 2:56:43.320 there's nothing they can do except to do it then 2:56:43.720 --> 2:56:47.240 be in touch with us. So, for example, there are 2:56:47.280 --> 2:56:49.840 makers in in countries that have been in touch and 2:56:49.959 --> 2:56:52.480 have said, okay, look, I have to do this because 2:56:52.840 --> 2:56:57.039 the situation here is bad. We support them as best 2:56:57.120 --> 2:56:59.480 as we can. We try to send people out to them, 2:56:59.600 --> 2:57:01.560 or we try to have them ship units to us. 2:57:02.040 --> 2:57:05.120 We try to get them up and going. Glia is 2:57:05.280 --> 2:57:09.920 not a medical device manufacturer. GLIA is a access to 2:57:10.040 --> 2:57:14.360 medicines and access to medical devices company, and part of 2:57:14.440 --> 2:57:17.280 that is making sure that people who are making medical 2:57:17.360 --> 2:57:20.800 devices are doing them to the highest possible quality. So 2:57:21.160 --> 2:57:24.800 if you are forced to make them be in touch 2:57:24.840 --> 2:57:29.160 with us, we will help in any way that we can. However, 2:57:30.000 --> 2:57:34.320 there's another category of people, and that is manufacturers who 2:57:34.400 --> 2:57:37.720 already know how to make medical devices. To those people, 2:57:38.360 --> 2:57:44.520 we say, take our stuff, please use it. Please. It 2:57:44.720 --> 2:57:47.240 is there for the taking, and it is high quality, 2:57:47.280 --> 2:57:50.240 it works really well, and if it's missing something, tell 2:57:50.360 --> 2:57:53.280 us we'll make it better for you and for us. Yeah, 2:57:53.400 --> 2:57:56.560 that's great. I think that's really excellent. Advice. Uh, perhaps 2:57:57.160 --> 2:57:59.039 a good note for us to finish on where can 2:57:59.160 --> 2:58:01.160 people find you they want to get in touch, if 2:58:01.200 --> 2:58:02.760 they if they want to look at some of the 2:58:02.840 --> 2:58:06.240 devices like making a stethoscope, I imagine could be like 2:58:06.320 --> 2:58:10.640 a fun project and put a lot less potential risk there. 2:58:10.720 --> 2:58:13.440 So where can they find that stuff? Absolutely, the stethoscope 2:58:13.520 --> 2:58:17.279 is such a fun project. It's fun because any everybody 2:58:17.360 --> 2:58:20.920 has a heart in general, and um, you can listen 2:58:21.000 --> 2:58:24.000 to your family and friends and loved ones. And it's 2:58:24.080 --> 2:58:26.400 one of my favorite things when I'm in practice and 2:58:26.520 --> 2:58:29.600 I listen for sometimes patient will be there with their 2:58:30.000 --> 2:58:33.440 son or daughter or child, and I'll tell the kid, 2:58:33.480 --> 2:58:35.560 you want to listen to mommy's heart, your daddy's heart. 2:58:36.520 --> 2:58:39.280 It's one of the best things. So the stethoscope is 2:58:39.320 --> 2:58:42.320 a great fun, low risk project. Please go ahead and 2:58:42.400 --> 2:58:45.080 do it. Make it. You can find our stuff anywhere 2:58:45.120 --> 2:58:48.520 you can find principle stuff. It's on thinking versuss, on printiples, 2:58:48.720 --> 2:58:54.360 it's basically everywhere or through our geth hub or on 2:58:54.560 --> 2:58:58.720 the Glia site. So that's clia dot org. And if 2:58:58.800 --> 2:59:02.080 people want to participe paid, they're very welcome to. We 2:59:02.240 --> 2:59:06.480 always want need and love, help and of course, it's 2:59:06.480 --> 2:59:09.000 a community. You can never have too many friends, so 2:59:09.240 --> 2:59:12.280 we're always looking for more friends and love to see 2:59:12.320 --> 2:59:15.880 more people. We have a matter most obviously, it's not 2:59:16.080 --> 2:59:18.080 just our devices that are open source. We try to 2:59:18.160 --> 2:59:21.400 make our tire stack open source so people can join 2:59:21.480 --> 2:59:23.640 and chat with us and you know, hang out with 2:59:23.959 --> 2:59:27.040 people who are doing really, really cool and super impressive stuff. 2:59:27.560 --> 2:59:31.160 At this point, I love to recognize the fact that 2:59:31.360 --> 2:59:34.760 I'm one of the least productive, least impressive people at 2:59:34.800 --> 2:59:39.240 clear Really the work that's happening is amazing, and it's 2:59:39.320 --> 2:59:44.560 led by lots of smart, dedicated, visionary people. Yeah, that's 2:59:44.600 --> 2:59:46.200 great to hear that. It's really cool that you can 2:59:46.560 --> 2:59:48.640 we can work with people as well, So hopefully people 2:59:48.680 --> 2:59:50.440 do get in touch. I'm sure there'll be someone who's 2:59:50.480 --> 2:59:52.640 interested in what you're doing but has something to contribute 2:59:52.680 --> 2:59:54.880 in some fashion. Yeah, thank you so much for giving 2:59:55.000 --> 2:59:57.000 us some of your evening. Is there anything else you'd 2:59:57.000 --> 2:59:58.600 like to say before we finish up. I think the 2:59:58.680 --> 3:00:01.960 most important thing to say is that there's this mystique 3:00:02.400 --> 3:00:05.600 that people develop. You alluded to it earlier. There's a 3:00:05.640 --> 3:00:09.800 mystique people develop around medical devices. Medical devices are solutions 3:00:09.879 --> 3:00:14.560 to problems and they were made by people like me 3:00:14.720 --> 3:00:17.400 who don't know what the hell they're doing sometimes, and 3:00:17.560 --> 3:00:22.160 so let's not you know, aggrandize or like separate ourselves 3:00:22.240 --> 3:00:24.160 from the people who are doing this work. Yes we 3:00:24.240 --> 3:00:26.400 have to be cautious, Yes we have to be vigorous, 3:00:27.040 --> 3:00:29.280 but at the same time we can all contribute to 3:00:29.400 --> 3:00:31.840 be a part of us. Very cool. And can people 3:00:31.879 --> 3:00:34.160 find you personally anyway? Do you have social media that 3:00:34.360 --> 3:00:36.680 that people could follow. Yeah, if people look at my 3:00:36.800 --> 3:00:39.720 name Terrik Labanny, I'm on all the all the socials, 3:00:39.920 --> 3:00:42.280 as is Glia as well, so you can contact me 3:00:42.560 --> 3:00:45.640 or Glia and participate in anything that you want. And 3:00:45.920 --> 3:00:49.879 like I said, we we always welcome friends. Great, wonderful, 3:00:50.080 --> 3:00:52.640 Thanks so much man, Thank you so much. That was 3:00:52.920 --> 3:01:00.480 such a pleasure. Hey, exackday with more episode this every 3:01:00.520 --> 3:01:02.680 week from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3:01:03.360 --> 3:01:05.720 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:01:05.959 --> 3:01:08.600 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:01:08.680 --> 3:01:10.760 cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 3:01:10.840 --> 3:01:13.320 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 3:01:13.440 --> 3:01:16.200 listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could 3:01:16.200 --> 3:01:19.160 Happen Here. Updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com 3:01:19.240 --> 3:01:21.119 slash Sources thanks for listening.