1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,520
Speaker 1: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

2
00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:06,199
Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

3
00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,400
Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

4
00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,280
Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

5
00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,800
Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

6
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,720
Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

7
00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,959
Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

8
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:29,720
Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Take it away. Robert Evans, gosh,

9
00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:37,560
Speaker 1: it could happen here. I did it brilliant. Thank you. Yeah,

10
00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,280
Speaker 1: I love I love that really, thank you. You're Robert Evans.

11
00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:43,559
Speaker 1: We also have Christopher Long, Garrison Davis, and we have

12
00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,279
Speaker 1: Andrew here with us. We'll be leading this episode. Hi Andrew, Hello,

13
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:54,440
Speaker 1: Hello everyone. Hell is the with in Portland? It is cold.

14
00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,120
Speaker 1: Everywhere else in the continentally United States, it is a

15
00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:02,280
Speaker 1: boiling hell storm. Actually today today, today it's only eighty four.

16
00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, we we have three days where it's merely

17
00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,479
Speaker 1: in the eighties and then it goes back to being

18
00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:15,080
Speaker 1: like again. It's very very excited your temperature measurements. But angeles,

19
00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 1: it's lovely today. We're lovely for the next couple of

20
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:24,760
Speaker 1: days and then we'll be burning sixty six. It's gonna

21
00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,480
Speaker 1: be perfect here forever. Climate change is over in Northern Oregon.

22
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,160
Speaker 1: I have declared it, Well have you declared it? It

23
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:37,040
Speaker 1: must be true exactly. So today, once I have a

24
00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:44,360
Speaker 1: bit of a discussion, an open discussion about my favorite

25
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:50,880
Speaker 1: kind of discourse, and that is dead discourse. I wanted

26
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:55,200
Speaker 1: to talk about discussion code that people have been having

27
00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:00,000
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago about restaurants, a restaurant discourse,

28
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,280
Speaker 1: this whole idea that people heard about five minutes ago

29
00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,240
Speaker 1: and got super rare lap over and sparked to a

30
00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,080
Speaker 1: bunch of like drama, because that's what social media and centervizes.

31
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,200
Speaker 1: But I figured, you know, we could have a nice

32
00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,440
Speaker 1: roundtable discussionaire about code and code restaurant abolition, and show

33
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,680
Speaker 1: our thoughts on the ideas presented in the zine that

34
00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,120
Speaker 1: inspired it for those those who read it, Abolish Restaurants

35
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:29,760
Speaker 1: by prola in Food. But first of all, I wanted

36
00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,919
Speaker 1: to share it about my experience in the food industry.

37
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,440
Speaker 1: It was quite brief, and by brief, I mean like

38
00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:43,280
Speaker 1: four days I started working at this this winery slash

39
00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:48,320
Speaker 1: cafe that was UM owned and run by this trust

40
00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:53,359
Speaker 1: fund baby, and it was very clear that she had

41
00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 1: failed up for most of her life. Um. It was

42
00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,760
Speaker 1: very disorganized and very stressful experience. I quit like a

43
00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 1: few days after I got it because instead of you know,

44
00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,960
Speaker 1: making coffees and preparing wines and stuff, I got a

45
00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,360
Speaker 1: job pushing paper in an office, which is only marginally better.

46
00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:15,640
Speaker 1: And I mean everyone want to speak over like food

47
00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,400
Speaker 1: to his people or anything, because like my experience is

48
00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,919
Speaker 1: very limited, but in my own limited experience, it sucked.

49
00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,280
Speaker 1: I mean my blood too into water trying to keep

50
00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,840
Speaker 1: up with everything. It was one of those kind of

51
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,240
Speaker 1: under the table jobs, so you don't have a contract

52
00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,440
Speaker 1: or a specific job description. It's just like you're doing everything.

53
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,240
Speaker 1: So you're sorting and taking off recycling, and you're organized

54
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,520
Speaker 1: and stock, you're making coffee, busing tables and cashion products.

55
00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,200
Speaker 1: You're handling accounting for some reason, like lady, I just

56
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,760
Speaker 1: got here, but I'm already doing accounting, um, and so

57
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,840
Speaker 1: on and so forth. I didn't have an official break either,

58
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,680
Speaker 1: and I wasn't allowed to sit at all. Um. I

59
00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:55,440
Speaker 1: mean my boss said that I could stop for lunch

60
00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,720
Speaker 1: what I needed to, But because of this, these constant responsibility.

61
00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,960
Speaker 1: Shue was piling onto me. We never got a chance

62
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,600
Speaker 1: to take a breath. The one time I did take

63
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,160
Speaker 1: a lunch break, she rushed me out to lunch break

64
00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:15,240
Speaker 1: because I was taken too long and she was busy

65
00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,440
Speaker 1: taking care of her other real estate. I only consistent

66
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,520
Speaker 1: customers with her friends. And yet somehow, you know, she

67
00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,040
Speaker 1: kept the doors opening, the lights on because you know,

68
00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:33,960
Speaker 1: trust fund baby. But yeah, to reiterate, it was a

69
00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:39,040
Speaker 1: very sucky experience I had. Any Yeah, I worked at

70
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,640
Speaker 1: a restaurant for starting when I was in high school,

71
00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,640
Speaker 1: I was fifteen and a half for three or four

72
00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,640
Speaker 1: years part of college, the baby learn a lot about

73
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:56,200
Speaker 1: how awful people are. But it was like you did

74
00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,080
Speaker 1: learn how to work in a team and things like that.

75
00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:07,440
Speaker 1: Helpful goals there, But management was terrible. Ah, not exactly

76
00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:16,520
Speaker 1: easy work, not exactly fun work. Um. Yeah, it was like,

77
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,320
Speaker 1: I honestly feel like a lot of people should have

78
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,160
Speaker 1: to do some type of job like that so that

79
00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,000
Speaker 1: they learn, you know, how how to treat people who

80
00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,039
Speaker 1: work in that in that kind of position. Um, because

81
00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:34,279
Speaker 1: mostly my memories of it is terrible, horrible customers who

82
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,360
Speaker 1: just treated people like scum. Yeah, but I needed the job,

83
00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:43,400
Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah, my only experience in food service was

84
00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,520
Speaker 1: working at a sonic not for a crazy long time,

85
00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,960
Speaker 1: but it was terrible, um, and it left me with

86
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,920
Speaker 1: an abiding like respect for people who have to do that.

87
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,960
Speaker 1: And I you know, we can talk, we'll talk more

88
00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,240
Speaker 1: about the restaurant thing, but I certainly don't think fast

89
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,279
Speaker 1: food restaurant or a thing that exists in my ideal future,

90
00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,599
Speaker 1: because I don't know how you could possibly operate those

91
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,880
Speaker 1: without a tremendous amount of human suffering and wasted potential,

92
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,960
Speaker 1: because they're just they're bad things. Now that said, any

93
00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,320
Speaker 1: utopian society will have a way to acquire Popeyes, but

94
00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,920
Speaker 1: perhaps not at like midnight in every city of the

95
00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 1: country whenever you wanted. My utopian society is a wool

96
00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,280
Speaker 1: in which KFC has been abolished and everything else to

97
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:32,120
Speaker 1: like exist. Yes, yes, well again this is it could

98
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:40,120
Speaker 1: happen here sponsored by I'm perfectly okay with imperialism, but like, yeah,

99
00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,960
Speaker 1: and what kind of like can I ask, like, what

100
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,480
Speaker 1: kind of restaurant I know? Robert said his was fast food,

101
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,880
Speaker 1: Mine was very like casual food. What what kind of

102
00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,919
Speaker 1: restaurant did you work at? Right? It wasn't. It was

103
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,480
Speaker 1: like a winery slash caffee and it also served food.

104
00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,240
Speaker 1: It was like a touch to a hotel. Oh yeah,

105
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,320
Speaker 1: and the whole the hotel part of it probably made

106
00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:12,720
Speaker 1: it appearance. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, Yeah, kurs, scare either

107
00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,840
Speaker 1: of you rather work in the food fruit food service

108
00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 1: industry at all? Yeah. I worked at a bakery for

109
00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,280
Speaker 1: like a year and a half, mostly back of the house. Um.

110
00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,640
Speaker 1: But I mean I would you know, would end up

111
00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,760
Speaker 1: washing washing dishes and taking out recycling and all that

112
00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,000
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. But most of my work was designing

113
00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,679
Speaker 1: recipes because I was more on like the food science angle.

114
00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, I mean it's I have a

115
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:41,440
Speaker 1: complicated uh feelings on like cafes specifically. I mean I

116
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,600
Speaker 1: I love anarchist cafes and like the idea of anarchist cafe.

117
00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:46,480
Speaker 1: I would love to love to like have one at

118
00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,280
Speaker 1: some point. It's like operated by the workers quote quote

119
00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,160
Speaker 1: owned by the workers, um, with a shooting range out back.

120
00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,480
Speaker 1: But obviously the guns and buns. We call it guns

121
00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,400
Speaker 1: and buns. You can the croissan and you can shoot

122
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:13,520
Speaker 1: fard by cafe by all me inside your right. Guns

123
00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,880
Speaker 1: and buns is a breakfast cafe, gun range, strip club

124
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,600
Speaker 1: and apparently as long as as long as you fund it,

125
00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,720
Speaker 1: you can have whatever you want. But the people will

126
00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,640
Speaker 1: funded Garrison. Obviously, the food service industry has just make

127
00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:36,040
Speaker 1: it a cooperative that makes everything. Sorry, please continue. Yeah,

128
00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,080
Speaker 1: like the food service industry has a lot of problems.

129
00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,240
Speaker 1: But if if I were if I were able to

130
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,600
Speaker 1: go into a bakery like maybe like two or three

131
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,560
Speaker 1: times a week to just bake food for people and

132
00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,120
Speaker 1: that helps me live the rest of the week, I

133
00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,599
Speaker 1: would totally do that, right, So, like it depends on

134
00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,320
Speaker 1: a lot of factors, but it's like there's ideas around,

135
00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,439
Speaker 1: like an anarchist cafe, work around cafe that would be

136
00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,760
Speaker 1: like totally chilled to work to like be there a

137
00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,200
Speaker 1: few days of the week making food because I enjoy

138
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,800
Speaker 1: making food, I enjoy baking, and I like food science. Um.

139
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,480
Speaker 1: But you know, when you would start we start tying

140
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,320
Speaker 1: that into labor and exploited the labor practices and the

141
00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,200
Speaker 1: notion of like having to serve other people, then it

142
00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,720
Speaker 1: gets a little bit more tricky. Um, and you know,

143
00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,640
Speaker 1: less less less good, less cash money in a sign,

144
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,320
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, you know it was was was kind of

145
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,600
Speaker 1: funny about it. Um I would say it is like

146
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,560
Speaker 1: kind of lost guada. Let me just think for a second. Well, so,

147
00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,480
Speaker 1: I mean one of the things that I have noticed

148
00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,480
Speaker 1: over the years, because I've had a lot of friends

149
00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,360
Speaker 1: work as bartenders, as waiters and waitresses, there are there's

150
00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,240
Speaker 1: a chunk of people who really like the work. They

151
00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,720
Speaker 1: usually don't like their employer, they often have issues with

152
00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,040
Speaker 1: like their manager or whatever, but like they like their

153
00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,559
Speaker 1: co workers and they enjoy the the act of like

154
00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,920
Speaker 1: doing restaurants stuff. Um I and I know that. Like,

155
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,000
Speaker 1: so one of the things that I did recreationally for years,

156
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,199
Speaker 1: as I was going to I would go to these

157
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,080
Speaker 1: regional burning Man events and one of the rules there's

158
00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,240
Speaker 1: like everyone pays the same thing to get in. There's

159
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,360
Speaker 1: no like get there's no like talent, so there's nobody

160
00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 1: who's like paid to be there as an act, and

161
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,320
Speaker 1: there's no like exchange of currency lab But there are restaurants.

162
00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,520
Speaker 1: There are people who like bake food and and and

163
00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,360
Speaker 1: give out and like make and give out coffee. There's

164
00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,959
Speaker 1: there's multiple bars and a number of the people I

165
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,160
Speaker 1: knew who were like the most who would spend the

166
00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,400
Speaker 1: most of their time which is again totally their own.

167
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,080
Speaker 1: At these events volunteering as bartenders were people who worked

168
00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,560
Speaker 1: as bartenders, and we're like, look, I like serving drinks.

169
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,720
Speaker 1: I hate a lot of what goes along with being

170
00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,240
Speaker 1: in a bar, but I enjoy making and serving drinks.

171
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,839
Speaker 1: There was this one really cool dude out in the

172
00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,520
Speaker 1: middle of he was out because it's a spread out

173
00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,880
Speaker 1: over acres of woodlands. There's just this guy I found

174
00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,320
Speaker 1: one night alone in the woods at like a podium sized,

175
00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,360
Speaker 1: little booth lit up bar he'd made, and he was like, look,

176
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,680
Speaker 1: I am a very good bartender. What I do not

177
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,000
Speaker 1: like is making the same things every night for drunk

178
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,000
Speaker 1: people who don't know anything about a good mixed drink.

179
00:10:58,360 --> 00:10:59,720
Speaker 1: So you and I are gonna have like a five

180
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,040
Speaker 1: minute conversation and then I'm gonna tell you what I'm

181
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,800
Speaker 1: gonna make you. Yeah. Yeah, it was really cool like that.

182
00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,120
Speaker 1: More stuff like that, more like restaurant pop ups that

183
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,600
Speaker 1: are like those types of things are are just are

184
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,200
Speaker 1: divorced from like this notion of like, you know, being

185
00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,480
Speaker 1: served by a lower class member of society. Instead it's

186
00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 1: people like sharing actual interests that they have and they're

187
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,320
Speaker 1: not obligated to be there or else they get you know,

188
00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:25,679
Speaker 1: or else they're not able to pay their rent. Right,

189
00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 1: there's lots of things like a utopian society or be like, yeah,

190
00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,319
Speaker 1: I would totally be down with doing some some kind

191
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,800
Speaker 1: of you know, some kind of thing related to giving

192
00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,120
Speaker 1: food to other people are preparing food or you know,

193
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,800
Speaker 1: drink like mixed strengths. Uh. I like making coffee a

194
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 1: lot like espressove and the ship. Um it's like I

195
00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,719
Speaker 1: can totally see that, but right now, you know, it's

196
00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,480
Speaker 1: just a totally different field. Um, by and large for

197
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,839
Speaker 1: most people in you know, the food service industry, and

198
00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,240
Speaker 1: it sucks work. By and large, it really sucks to

199
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,000
Speaker 1: work in the foods service industry. Yeah, the food service

200
00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,200
Speaker 1: industry is one of the most explicitve industries in the country.

201
00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,320
Speaker 1: That said, the idea of gathering in public to consume

202
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,920
Speaker 1: food and beverages is fundamental to human beings and we're

203
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,800
Speaker 1: never not going to have that as society's so there

204
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,480
Speaker 1: has to be ways in which to have versions of that.

205
00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,199
Speaker 1: And again, probably not the every ten minutes you get

206
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,559
Speaker 1: the same three fast food restaurants that are open all night.

207
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,640
Speaker 1: That probably that definitely does not exist in an ideal society,

208
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,439
Speaker 1: but in any any better society, human beings will gather

209
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,160
Speaker 1: to eat and drink around each other because it's something

210
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,640
Speaker 1: we've done in every civilization that has ever existed. So,

211
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,440
Speaker 1: Andrew do you do? Do you want to talk a

212
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,240
Speaker 1: bit more about the actual zine, because I feel like

213
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people's course around the zine is not

214
00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,360
Speaker 1: about the zine itself. It's about what the title of

215
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,600
Speaker 1: the zene is, because people should read the actual zene.

216
00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,800
Speaker 1: If you read it makes very reasonable arguments. Um. The

217
00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:58,920
Speaker 1: titles just intentionally provocative. Um. Yeah. And what I've realized

218
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:04,880
Speaker 1: about intentionally provocative slogans is that the people who who

219
00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:06,840
Speaker 1: want to get it, you know, they tend to be

220
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:08,720
Speaker 1: drawn into those kinds of things. And then there's some

221
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,400
Speaker 1: people who see something provocative and it kind of shuts

222
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,199
Speaker 1: them down. Yes, some people see it, see something so

223
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,240
Speaker 1: provocative and see it's like I want to learn more.

224
00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:17,800
Speaker 1: And other people see it and they have that kind

225
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:19,719
Speaker 1: of a gut reaction to It's like it's like the

226
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:24,880
Speaker 1: backfire affect type thing. Yeah. So I mean to get

227
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,360
Speaker 1: into the kind of the history of it and just

228
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:33,760
Speaker 1: the idea of restaurants as as the Zene Explorers. According

229
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,680
Speaker 1: to the discourse, a restaurant is just a place to eat.

230
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,680
Speaker 1: If you sit down in the middle of a desert

231
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,000
Speaker 1: with a table and a chair and you eat something

232
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,079
Speaker 1: that's apparently a restaurant, that's not a restaurant. That it's

233
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,319
Speaker 1: not a restaurant. But okay, the definition of a restaurant

234
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,040
Speaker 1: is a place where people pay to sit and eat

235
00:13:54,120 --> 00:14:00,600
Speaker 1: meals that are cooked and served on the premises. Commerce

236
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,320
Speaker 1: is a part of the definition of a restaurant. Why

237
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:09,640
Speaker 1: do we universalize and naturalize things that are neither That

238
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,600
Speaker 1: is my question. It's like what people do with the state,

239
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,640
Speaker 1: or with capitalism, with police or agender. I mean, just

240
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,000
Speaker 1: like those things. The restaurant is an invention, but it's

241
00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:24,080
Speaker 1: been crystallized and induced into our mind as something that

242
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,080
Speaker 1: is you know, that is natural, it is universal. You

243
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,120
Speaker 1: know when when Kronk brought his buddy Brock a piece

244
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 1: of chicken, that was a restaurant. You know, it's like,

245
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 1: we take we take these things that come from very

246
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,840
Speaker 1: specific modern capitalist context and we stretch them out over

247
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,800
Speaker 1: the entire human experience. If you look into the history restaurants,

248
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,600
Speaker 1: the first restaurants began to appear in Paris in the

249
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:54,280
Speaker 1: seventeen sixties, un as leaders in the eighteen fifties. Majority

250
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,760
Speaker 1: the restaurants that will be located in Paris, and I mean,

251
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:00,200
Speaker 1: for those who know a little bit about his three,

252
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,200
Speaker 1: Paris is kind of an interesting place where a lot

253
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 1: of things happen, especially during that rough time period, a

254
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,200
Speaker 1: lot of stuff going on there exactly, I mean elsewhere

255
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,120
Speaker 1: on the world, communal meals were quite common. People cooked

256
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,440
Speaker 1: community and the eight community, and they were new restaurants,

257
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:24,840
Speaker 1: specifically before the invention of restaurants, and in Paris around

258
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,080
Speaker 1: Europe at least where people had servants who cooked for them.

259
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,880
Speaker 1: Travelers had ins where their meal was included with the

260
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:32,760
Speaker 1: price of the room and they ate for the innkeeper

261
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,960
Speaker 1: and his family, and peasants they ate their meals at home,

262
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 1: and of course they were also caterers free events and

263
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:43,200
Speaker 1: special occasions. And there were taverns and wineries and coffees

264
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,440
Speaker 1: and bakeries for certain foods and drinks. Of course, later

265
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,400
Speaker 1: on all of those things, the taverns, the wineries, the

266
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,360
Speaker 1: cake the caffes, and the bakeries. After restaurants came about,

267
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,760
Speaker 1: those other institutions to shape and bend into this sort

268
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,480
Speaker 1: of the mold of the restaurants was established. Restaurant based

269
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:08,920
Speaker 1: on the name of it. Um comes from this this

270
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,800
Speaker 1: idea that they were meant to restore health to sick people.

271
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,080
Speaker 1: Restaurant restaurant, all right, and they used to sue these

272
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,360
Speaker 1: small meat stews. So by by that, by that metric,

273
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:25,480
Speaker 1: Taco Bell cannot be a restaurant. I I would argue

274
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: that it is the only restaurant. It's, well, it's going

275
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,720
Speaker 1: to restore bowel movement if you have any kind of

276
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,840
Speaker 1: blockage that that that it will restore that. But besides that,

277
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 1: I cannot, I can do not think it's going to

278
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,080
Speaker 1: restore Yeah, Taco Bell, It's probably something like a laxatant.

279
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:48,320
Speaker 1: I don't know. But yeah, So why France, Why Paris?

280
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,680
Speaker 1: Why restaurants? It kind of occurred after the food craft

281
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,880
Speaker 1: kills were abolished by the Revolution. It was like this

282
00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,160
Speaker 1: attempt to kind of democratize the food industry. You know,

283
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:06,080
Speaker 1: Liberty got a home all that jazz, so restaurants and

284
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,119
Speaker 1: it began spree enough because all these former cooks of

285
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,760
Speaker 1: the now be headed king and aristocrats, they wanted to

286
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,800
Speaker 1: work somewhere. Sure, so you know, in a restaurant, if

287
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,800
Speaker 1: you get a meal at any time the businesses open,

288
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,600
Speaker 1: anyone with money could get a meal. The customers would

289
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,800
Speaker 1: come and they would eat an individual tables, eat individual

290
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,760
Speaker 1: plates and bowls of food. They get to choose from

291
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,040
Speaker 1: another option, a number of options, and they grew in

292
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,240
Speaker 1: size and complexity as they went on. They got a

293
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:40,440
Speaker 1: fixed menu and eventually all day. We invented the bacon eator. Yes, yeah,

294
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,200
Speaker 1: that's the end fact. The Bacon was the first book

295
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:50,200
Speaker 1: I had when I went to the US. I would apologize,

296
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 1: but this country has done so much worse than that

297
00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:58,359
Speaker 1: of fun facts about Andrew. Yeah, you know, it's a

298
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,280
Speaker 1: thing to tune in and you get a litt new

299
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,719
Speaker 1: fact that you could. I don't know adds my Wikia

300
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:10,639
Speaker 1: page or something, but yeah, yeah, it was. It was.

301
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,639
Speaker 1: It was mid. Honestly, my brother makes better bogas. But

302
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,399
Speaker 1: that's besides the plane. Yeah, nearly every burger that you

303
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:24,119
Speaker 1: can get at a fast food restaurant is is mid. Yeah,

304
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:31,560
Speaker 1: t g I Friday's had some good Friday. That is

305
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,879
Speaker 1: the place when you're in a town you've never been before,

306
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:36,160
Speaker 1: that's where you want to just show up and get

307
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,679
Speaker 1: absolutely ship house drunk until two am with like a

308
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 1: bunch of strangers at the t g I Friday's Bar,

309
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,560
Speaker 1: which is the boulevard of broken dreams, Like it's only

310
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,280
Speaker 1: people who can't hack it in a regular bar and

311
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 1: weirdos traveling through town. I love a t g I

312
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 1: A Friday's Bark. I was not aware of that sertiod type.

313
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,639
Speaker 1: I mean there's aid t g I here in Trinidad

314
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,639
Speaker 1: and me last time I knew they had like some

315
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 1: kind of karaoke thing going on. Yeah, it's probably the vibe.

316
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,359
Speaker 1: I haven't been too many times anyway, I think this

317
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 1: is enough product place month for for one episode, like

318
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:28,959
Speaker 1: out a lot of different here's ads. Sure, why not?

319
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 1: So the growth of the restaurant came the growth of

320
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 1: the market. With the growth of the restaurant came the

321
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,679
Speaker 1: growth of the market. Needs that will you know fulfilled

322
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,520
Speaker 1: either through a direct relationship with domination like between a

323
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,800
Speaker 1: lord or a king and his silvants, or a private

324
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,119
Speaker 1: relationship like within the family. They were all being fulfilled

325
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 1: on the open market. It was once a direct oppressive relationship,

326
00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,399
Speaker 1: now became the relationship between buyer and seller now came in.

327
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: Didn't direct oppressive exactly, a diffused oppressive relationship foremost because

328
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 1: no one person, I would say it could really carry

329
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,440
Speaker 1: the blame. A similar expansion the market took place over

330
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,400
Speaker 1: a century later with the rise of fast food because

331
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,280
Speaker 1: as the nineteen fifties housewife was on her way out,

332
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,200
Speaker 1: you know, being undermined, and as you women started to

333
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 1: move into the open labor market, many of the tasks

334
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,400
Speaker 1: that were done by women traditionally were being transferred onto

335
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 1: the market. Not to say that women still don't do

336
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 1: the majority of care work in modern society, but as

337
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 1: women started moving into the office into the workplace, things

338
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 1: started to shift with regard to eating and eating patterns.

339
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,959
Speaker 1: An important point to notice that, of course, you know,

340
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 1: the whole woman moving into the workplace thing is kind

341
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 1: of a white woman phenomenon, because you know, people of color,

342
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 1: women of color were inward places before then in large numbers. Yeah,

343
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:04,919
Speaker 1: And and there's there's a thing I think it's important

344
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,479
Speaker 1: to note here too, which is like part part of

345
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 1: what's happening here, is that like some of the care

346
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 1: labor that white women were doing gets transferred on to

347
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 1: non white women. And this this is this has been

348
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 1: one of the things that, Like, I think we talked

349
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 1: about this a long time ago in an interview I

350
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 1: did with it with a nurse. But like, like, for example,

351
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 1: you see this with healthcare a lot where like a

352
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 1: lot of like union workers get these goods, you know,

353
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 1: they get really good healthcare plans from the unions, but

354
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 1: those healthcare plans are basically subsidized by not paying women

355
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: of color like ship. And there's this whole sort of

356
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 1: like trend around this is sort of like like you can,

357
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 1: you know, if if you're witching, if you're rich enough,

358
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 1: you can escape housework. But you escape housework by essentially

359
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 1: thrusting it on somewhere, on someone else who's like further

360
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,679
Speaker 1: down the social ladder venue. Yeah, it's kind of like

361
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 1: a form of that um that phenomenon. People have been

362
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 1: talking about the the idea of choice feminism, as in

363
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 1: any choice that woman to sneak that a woman makes

364
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,400
Speaker 1: part of the feminist sort of movement. So I saw

365
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: some discourse happened recently. People are talking about, um, how

366
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: oh one should have a right if she's a housewife,

367
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 1: that she should still be able to you know, pursue

368
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 1: her interests, which is of course agreed and the solution

369
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: being proposed, so that was that the man, the breadwinner,

370
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: would pay for a domestic servants to come and work

371
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 1: for the woman so that she can pursue her other responsibilities,

372
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: her other interests and desires. And so it's just kind

373
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 1: of this perfect what a close to license exactly because

374
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 1: then this woman is working away from her family, and

375
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: then you know, it's just like this is a the

376
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 1: messed up system. But yes, so as fast food restaurants

377
00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: began to grow rapidly, people began being paid weed is

378
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 1: for what used to be hostwork. And of course, as

379
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 1: we know, capitalism could not exist without the billions of

380
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: dollars of unpaid labor that women perform on a yearly basis.

381
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: Modern restaurants emerged in the nineteenth century under specific conditions.

382
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: They had to be businessmen with capital to invest in restaurants.

383
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 1: They had to be customers who are expected to satisfy

384
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,959
Speaker 1: their need for food in the open market by buying it.

385
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 1: And they had to be workers with no way to

386
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 1: live but by working for someone else. As these conditions developed,

387
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: as capitalism developed, sorted restaurants and so at the root

388
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: of this whole abolished restaurants discourse needs to be an

389
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 1: understanding of where restaurants came from their historical development. You

390
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: cannot take them in isolation and project them, like I said,

391
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: across all of humanity, because it's only through understanding, through

392
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 1: its specific circumstances that we can transform it as we

393
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: transform society as a whole. As we were saying, you know,

394
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that are hell about restaurants.

395
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: The way that work comes in like waves and rushes,

396
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 1: a lot of slow time in between. We either really

397
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 1: stressed out, the really bored. Remember working they had the

398
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: winery and like for mostly day, I just have to

399
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: be like shifting around bottles on the shelves. I couldn't

400
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 1: sit down and chill or be on my phone or anything.

401
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: I just had to busy myself until a customer came.

402
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,439
Speaker 1: I guess it was never came because it was a

403
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: failed business propped up only by her parents money. But

404
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: did you ever get told the phrase if you can lean,

405
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: you can clean, not in not in those exactly words, Yes,

406
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: in those exact words, God, and every fucking manager who

407
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: says it to you think that like it's their cool

408
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: line was anyway? Yep? Yeah, So you have to just

409
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: you have this this constant thing of trying to look

410
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: busy while having got nothing to do, while you're trying

411
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 1: not to fall behind because they have tendings to do. Yeah,

412
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: everyone's always working harder and faster, and of course the

413
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: boss wants to squeeze as much workout in the same

414
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: number of people out as possible, you know, like you

415
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 1: pushing people to these ridiculous extremes, which is why it's

416
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 1: a kind of stereotype now of like restaurant workers all

417
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: being on drugs. You know, there's also this whole in

418
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: humanity to like employees being paid in tips. Now, as

419
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: far as I know nowhere is that as severe as

420
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: it is in the US um. But of course around

421
00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: the world there are tipping cultures of varying degrees. And

422
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: so when you have that sort of work where you

423
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: sure you're living your subsistence is so directly tied to

424
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: like tips, Not only do you have this sort of

425
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: divide being created between the workers between like, for example,

426
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: the waiters who make the tips and the cooks who

427
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: don't make any tips, And it's just the sort of

428
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: had to compete against each other because the way it's

429
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 1: trying to get as much done as possible so they

430
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: can make their tips quickly so they could have their

431
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, quick service. Where as the cooks they have

432
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: no interesting motivation to push themselves harder and just becomes stressful.

433
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: I never got tips from baking in the back of

434
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: the house unless some of the people in front of

435
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: the house would like share the tips at the end

436
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: of the day by their own like. Yeah, and I

437
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: know folks who worked in places where all tips were

438
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: shared with the way the kitchen staff, and it seemed

439
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: to be a fifty fifty breakdown of this is really

440
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: good and everyone gets paid fairly, and this is actually

441
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 1: some scam by man management to deny people a bunch

442
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: of tips by like pulling them and a certain factory

443
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: that gets done so like It's like any formulation of

444
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: this inherently winds up being pretty abusive. Yeah, and dividing

445
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: you know another interesting and I mean, as you guys

446
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: mentioned stressful components about you know, this line of workers.

447
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: Of course, the customers, which customer service for in general,

448
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: tend to you know, whether you're working at a bar

449
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: or you're working at a you know, a restaurant, even

450
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: working in like sales and some sort of like retail.

451
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: Still their whole subread is dedicated to how terrible customers

452
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: are two workers, and so that that's sort of dynamic

453
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: of service. It it really changes people. I mean, customers

454
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: can just as easily be working class as the people

455
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: working in the restaurant. It there's still that dynamic that's

456
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: created when you are the one being seated and soothed

457
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 1: on the other police and on their feet soothing you.

458
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: Some of the worst customers in America at least are

459
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: working class and poorer folks who it's like their chance

460
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: to be above somebody like when they go out to

461
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: a restaurant, so they can be extra shitty. Yeah, that

462
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: is a thing that happens. Surprisingly that even like restaurant

463
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: weekers who treat restaurant workers batly when they go to

464
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: a restaurant. Yeah, yeah, yes, it's like someone gets the

465
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: opportunity to be to exert the power and they're like

466
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: do it in the short, short, short, short amount of time.

467
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: But although I will say I'm sure those are also

468
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: the restaurant workers who treat people badly at the restaurant

469
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: they work at, including like some of the some of

470
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: the things that have ever been said to beered by

471
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: customers at the restaurant job. I had, yeah, not surprising,

472
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: and I was like no, I was like I was

473
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: like in high school, I was a kid and these

474
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: are like grown ups being horreendous. So like I think,

475
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: I think it's like I don't know, like when people

476
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: talk about this, like when people talk about restaurants, like

477
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: in the discourses, it's it's in a way that's like

478
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: it's incredibly abstract and doesn't like it don't it doesn't

479
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: think about the fact that like the relationship between the

480
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: customer and the people who have to interact with the customers, host, etcetera,

481
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: like that that is a social relation. It's a social

482
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: relation that like that, like like the the power dynamic

483
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: inherent to it abscribes sort of different kind It describes

484
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: different kinds of behavior to the people who are like

485
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: who are like on either side of it, like it

486
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: it controls like what you have to do as a server,

487
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: like what the performances you have to give to like

488
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: the smile you have to put on, which is actually

489
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: like that's the original thing of what emotional he is, right,

490
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: is like the labor you have to do to make

491
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: the person who you're serving, like I think that you're

492
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: like happy and enjoying it, like having a good time.

493
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: But then you know on the customer's en too, it's

494
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: like you get this sort of you know, I was like, oh,

495
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: this is your one chance to to be on top

496
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: of a sort of power relation and like that like

497
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: that like that specific thing is so fucking evil. It's

498
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: like that there there, there's there's a story I think

499
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: about a lot from Run and Schwang. Originally was it

500
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: was about um like one one of the last emperors

501
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: of the Tang dynasty, like his his concubine like loved

502
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: legia and like, okay, I get it as lesia that

503
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: gets really good, but like leeches grown leaches only grown

504
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: in this in the south of China. You can't really

505
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: grow in the north. It doesn't like it's too cold,

506
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: too arid. And so in order to get her leash,

507
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: like every morning, they would send like the fastest writers

508
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: like in China would like be sent by horse like

509
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: to southern China and then back so that you get

510
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: the lechia there in time like for for it still

511
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: to be like ripe and like edible, and you know

512
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: that that's the kind of that's the kind of power

513
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: that you to only literally the Emperor of China had

514
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: this ability, right, like the like the Emperor of fucking

515
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: China could get this commodity and like force everyone in

516
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: a change to go do something for them. And now

517
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: like everyone has that Like literally everyone has that power.

518
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: Like every time you use Amazon, you have that power.

519
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: Every time you go to a rusturant, you have the

520
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: power to do this, and it it turns people into

521
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: monsters because like that's you know, the Chinese emperors are

522
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: like these are some of the worst people who've ever lived. Now,

523
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: like everyone everyone like just like like the fundamental basis

524
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: of the society is there was a place where you

525
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: can go and you can become the emperor of fucking China.

526
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: The problem with the idea of instant gratification being reliant

527
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: on the exploitation of other people. Yeah, and and like that, yeah,

528
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: and that doesn't seem right Garrison, Oh yeah, don't worry now,

529
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: watch me as I order next day delivery on a

530
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: dollar drone just to just to funk around in my backyard.

531
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: Like yes, it's it's everything is fine in America. I

532
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: I do. I am like of the opinion that the

533
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: grocery store is like the primary artistic achievement of capitalism

534
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: as a system. Um. They are objectively marvels, um. And

535
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: they're they're built on a river of blood deeper and

536
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: wider than is. It's like it's a hyper object, right,

537
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: It's like impossible to comprehend the full scale of cruelty

538
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: that goes into being able to like, well, it is November.

539
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go get a fresh bag of grapes that

540
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: have been genetically modified to taste like cotton candy, picked

541
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: by people making sense an hour in Yes, in the

542
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: country that's on the other side of the world. Yeah, yes,

543
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: whose relatives are shot for attempting to scramble over the border. Yeah.

544
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: That the grapes passed through easily. Yes. And I think

545
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: like like that that points to another Like I think

546
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: part of the dynamic safely with restaurants that happens, which

547
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: is that like, okay, like cooking takes time, right, and

548
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: the less and less time that you have, the more

549
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: like the more reliant you become, um on like on

550
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: these services. And so you see this with like you know,

551
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: like China has like a like a particularly horrible like

552
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: delivery culture, like you can like you can have someone

553
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: deliver food to you, like to the train, like like

554
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: a sub Like a train will stop at a stop

555
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: and you can have someone run a bag of food

556
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: to you and then like leave and you just like

557
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: you go to the next stop and you get off.

558
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: And that happens because everyone's working nine nine six, and

559
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, you're working. You're working nine am the

560
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: nine pm, six six days a week, and you know

561
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: you don't you literally do not have time to cook

562
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: because you're working. You're working twelve hours a day. And

563
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: like an example of this is like restaurant wrap. People

564
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: who work restaurants, like line cooks and chefs hardly ever

565
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: cook for themselves. They always get food from other restaurants

566
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: because they're cooking eight to ten hours a day. They're

567
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: not going to go home then cook for themselves. They

568
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, it's this system almost it makes it

569
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: makes the things that prop it up come necessary to

570
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: keep the whole thing going. It's all like balancings super

571
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: like precariously on its own weight. It's it's equivalent to

572
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: like if you're in a criminal syndicate, making somebody you're

573
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: working with tangentially shoot a man in the back of

574
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: the head so that you both have blood on your hands.

575
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: Like everyone is everyone just by by virtue of existing

576
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: under it. Like if you're working sixty hours a week

577
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: is a fucking nurse during COVID or as a fucking

578
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: line cook dealing with this surge of delivery ship and

579
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 1: then on your way home, you just want to pick

580
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 1: up some like sushi from a fucking grocery store that

581
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: requires ingredients from all around the world and is made

582
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: by people who are not getting enough money to make

583
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 1: it and is horrible for the environments and the fisheries

584
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: and all that kind of ship um, And but like

585
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 1: what are you supposed to do? Like you you just

586
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: you just finished like a ten hour shift, Like do

587
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: you not deserve like one one nice thing at the

588
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: end of the like Like Like so it's if you people

589
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: can't like either you becomeing like a complete aesthetic right

590
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: and and reject and go kind of ted k and

591
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: live in a shack in Montana and reject all of

592
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: these these kind of modern conveniences, or you accept that,

593
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: like you're going to spend some time waiting into the

594
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: river of blood because otherwise the things you have to

595
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 1: do to stay alive in this society are completely emotionally unsustainable. Yeah,

596
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: this was this was the original, like before it kind

597
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: of became this cop out for like just doing whatever

598
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 1: you want. Like this was the original. There's no ethnical

599
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: consumption under capitalism is about this was about like this

600
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: specific problem that everything in the society, Like even even

601
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: if you're living in the woods and Montana, it's like yeah,

602
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: like where where where did where? Like where where did

603
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: your cabin come from? Like where did your nails come from?

604
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: Who made the hammers? Like everyone's like completely dependent for

605
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: everything on the exploitation of other people. And it it is.

606
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: It is a mean. The one thing that gives me

607
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: a little to hope is when Andrew was explaining how

608
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: like restaurants came arise because of people who used to

609
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: work for Kings and ship who then started working at

610
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: restaurants because they still want to make food. It's like

611
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 1: that evolution. Taking it to the next step is people

612
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: who work at restaurants now no longer having to work

613
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,919
Speaker 1: under capitalist exploitation and realizing, hey, I know how to cook, well,

614
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: I'll just set up like ways to feed the community

615
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: outside of this system of commerce. Right, that is the

616
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: next evolution if you start with people cooking for the

617
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: king people, then cooking in places where you pay to

618
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: eat in this exploitative system, and then people cooking for

619
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: people so that there's food around into like a community setting. Right,

620
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: if you if you follow that trajectory, that's actually kind

621
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: of hopeful. It's almost like we've come full circle. I

622
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: mean in some ways. Yeah, Like right, it's if if

623
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: you just go back to like beings, Yeah, like communicating.

624
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: If there's places around different communities, different towns, different like

625
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: urban centers that have have the capacity to feed people

626
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 1: who are not able to cook, cook, cook for themselves

627
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: that night or that day, that's something that if if

628
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: it's there is ways of setting that up which I

629
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: can see being so much better than how restaurants work.

630
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: You know, maybe maybe people wash their own dishes afterwards,

631
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: maybe people do something to help with like prep or something. Right,

632
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 1: like there's there's there's ways to make this that gives

633
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: you the parts of restaurants that are actually really convenient,

634
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: um without the exploitation, and so that that type of

635
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,399
Speaker 1: like community cooking is something I mean, you know that's

636
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: even similar to like how like a good dinner party

637
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: operates um just that kind of extended out across you know,

638
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:42,919
Speaker 1: more of like a pop up setting and say, hey, yeah,

639
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: this this month, we're using all of these ingredients that

640
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: are grown in our general local area. Right, We're not

641
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 1: getting shipped. We're not getting like strawberries in December shipped

642
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: from halfway around the world. Will make stuff that is available,

643
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: um as it you know, as it's grown, or we

644
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: can pick, we can store food, right and yeah, and

645
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: maybe we we've we've turned the old defunct Walmart into

646
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: a grows shelter. So once or twice during the winter

647
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: there are some strawberries and everybody comes together and shares

648
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: this marvel that the community came like worked as a

649
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: team to ensure would be available. But you can't just

650
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: go and buy four pounds of strawberries that are produced

651
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: with their like twice the weight of the strawberries and

652
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: pesticide in order to keep them alive in fields that

653
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: were never meant to grow straw Like maybe that's not

654
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: available all year round. Like yeah, just give back to

655
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: the point being raised to vote um about like the

656
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: wethical consumption of the capitalism, because that's a really important

657
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 1: point the whole poopas of that seeing has been lastidized.

658
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: But it really is crucial to have a duance and

659
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: the signing of it. What frustrates me is that it's

660
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: been taken and it's been tuned into this justification and

661
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: that it's okay that I buy from Sheen. It's okay

662
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: that I buy a three thousand the whole from Sheen

663
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: because no ethical consumption on the couple is on. Was

664
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: like with where somebody goes on, they engage in something

665
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: that is not is Andrew, you're talking around my two

666
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: and a half pound a day veal habit and I

667
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 1: don't appreciate. Yeah, that sounds like a problem. That's like

668
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: something Joe Roken dot sets like, I eat two and

669
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: to a half pads of veal every day and that

670
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: keeps my brain running smoothly. The cavemen, so I mean exactly,

671
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: it did work for Georgie Peterson, he's doing great. Christ

672
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: at the mirror notion of Antifa, I would do an

673
00:39:49,600 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: impression middle of hood my throat, so that's I would see.

674
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: I would say that as we were saying, you know

675
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 1: that there really is is potential we see even under

676
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: these conditions that people find ways to survive, you know,

677
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: they create like these informal work groups that are not

678
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: only able to come together and push back against management,

679
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: were able to work together to create trust within each other.

680
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: You know, you have like for example, waiters who would

681
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 1: try to hand in the kitchen on a slow day,

682
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: or a cleaner or who might pick up a thing

683
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: or two a dishwasher. We're trying to move up to

684
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: become like a align cook. All these different workers, they

685
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: they do things certainly to try to undermine the unnatural

686
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: divisions and hierarchies and between the skill and unskilled um

687
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: in the restaurants. Certain of course it doesn't always work

688
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: because there are you know settings were in the manager

689
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: successfully created divisions. You know, whether it be the manager

690
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: creating a division between um teen different nationalities of immigrants,

691
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: so you know, playing upon someone's queer phobia against like

692
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: queer staff, or someone's biases against I don't know, I

693
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 1: can't think of a third example. But there are ways

694
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: a managers try to like sew these divisions between workers,

695
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: and they always at workers try to push back. They're

696
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: alsoways ad managers trying to do the opposite to create

697
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: a community within the restaurant and includes themselves, so instead

698
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 1: of fostering isolation and prejudice, they create a community that

699
00:41:55,120 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 1: especially in small restaurants, that involves them that talk about

700
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 1: that's you know, the boss might share with them how

701
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: difficult it is working and organizing for the business of

702
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 1: the restaurant. And or they might create like a special

703
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: kind of restaurant focused on their identity. So they might

704
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: create a restaurant for for queer youth with all the

705
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: staff a queer, you know, you have a restaurant for

706
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: you know, a black owned restaurant world workers and black

707
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: and try to create community based on this identity. But

708
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: it kind of erases the unavoidable class interests between workers

709
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: and management. Its smooths over that dimension. So it becomes

710
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: more difficult to organize and to speak up for your

711
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:52,240
Speaker 1: rights because you're you're aware that the managers are human

712
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 1: and they too are struggling, Which kind of brings me

713
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: to the idea of restaurants with no managers and the

714
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: idea of cooperative The assume cooperative restaurants is that they

715
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: basically have to collectively take on the rule of managers

716
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: managing themselves, creating those pressures and pushing those pressures upon themselves.

717
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: They enforced the work on each other, and they have

718
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: to work longer in some cases and work harder in

719
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: some cases. Because the structure of a restaurant is designed

720
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 1: to make money, and if it is not making money,

721
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: then everybody loses their jobs. So, due to this pressure,

722
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: bosses in a position where they have to pushed workers

723
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: to get as much out of the workers as possible.

724
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: You raise the boss on the occasion from the equation,

725
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: but you keep the rest of the concept of a restaurant,

726
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: and line between work and boss becomes blue to the

727
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: extent where it's almost like image of a person with

728
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: a boot on their hand pulling a boot on their head.

729
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 1: Where this oppression there was one external becomes internalized because

730
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: that is how a restaurant survives through pressure, through exploitation.

731
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: It's kind of like with how self employed people are

732
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 1: on the capitalism. Yes, you're working for yourself and you

733
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: have some freedom that regard, but you're still restricted by

734
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,439
Speaker 1: the broader system. You haven't escaped it, You've just had

735
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: to navigate it. And I have to make quarterly payments

736
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 1: to the I R S. Yeah, I mean what I say,

737
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: I think work for ourselves in some capacity a certain

738
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: level of freedom, and it um you still have those pressures,

739
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: and it's just you have to inflict them on yourself.

740
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: You know. You don't have like a break that has

741
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 1: been mandated, and so at least in my case, I

742
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 1: don't take breaks because that's just how I am. You know.

743
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: You work longer hours, you push yourself harder and harder,

744
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: you work on days when you should be resting, and

745
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: it's just it illustrates the fact that liberation is not

746
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 1: to be found under this system, and it's something totally

747
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 1: new with a totally different metric of success, a totally

748
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 1: different metric of sustenance, totally different bare minimum and totally

749
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 1: different motivation needs to be foundation upon which society is built,

750
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:49,479
Speaker 1: because there's profiting a worken. Yeah, And I think there's

751
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: a like I think the reason this debate happens like this,

752
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: this whole discourse happened in the first place, is just

753
00:45:54,480 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: that like like just like a lot of it really

754
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: was just a complete inability to imagine like literally any

755
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: other way of like even just like like any other

756
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: way of getting food that has not involved you going

757
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: to a place and telling someone to make it for

758
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: you and like that. I don't know, Like, yeah, it's

759
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: like the fact that there have already been sort of

760
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: seismic shifts in the way that like food production happens, right,

761
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: I think is evidence of like, no, we don't have

762
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: to do it like that, like we just we just

763
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: do not It wasn't like this for most of human history.

764
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: We could do something better than whatever they were doing

765
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: before it. Yeah, a lot of people might you know,

766
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: wish for like in this. So it's a shift over

767
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: into the abolition section of it, the restaurant abolition. A

768
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: lot of people look to, for example, a union as

769
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: a path by which a short too, you know, we

770
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: make certain gains and belong to where we can take

771
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: over and radically transforming. The difficulty comes in how unions

772
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: have traditionally operated in the restaurants fair they tend to

773
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: be significantly less successful. I mean, restaurants usually have very

774
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: high turnover people in the last couple of months um.

775
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,359
Speaker 1: They often employed like a lot of young people who

776
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 1: are just looking for part time or temporary employment. Well,

777
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: people do work, they are constantly looking to move on

778
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: to better things, and so it makes it difficult to

779
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: create a stable union with a stable membership that can

780
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 1: buckle down and really negotiate and push for the interests

781
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: of the people working. Because people working and constantly changing.

782
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: I think one of the like one of the really

783
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 1: great things has led you is that like like especially

784
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: when fast food took over, like the major unions that

785
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: even do exist, which is like that we don't like

786
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: we're just not gonna bother even trying to organize these

787
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,399
Speaker 1: people because they just assumed it was impossible, and so

788
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: like there are there are very very few fast food unions.

789
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: I mean, like I think one of the only like

790
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: even sort of functional ones is the ww like organized Burgerville.

791
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: But that's that's been like it like the like the

792
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: big unions when they've done campaigns for fast food workers,

793
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: it's like it will was clean like five or fifteen,

794
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: but it's like they're not actually trying to like form

795
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: unions of the freshmand workers, Like they don't they're not

796
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: even trying. They're just trying to They're they're using them

797
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: for sort of like a lot being an advocacy. Yeah,

798
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: and difficulty also commins when un it's established itself, you know,

799
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: because a union structurally it's not always by all the Lucas.

800
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: You know, there's still sort of a hierarchy bureaucracy that

801
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 1: may establish itself and try to maintain itself, even if

802
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: it starts off benignly. No, just for all of the

803
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: radical history that unions do have, quite a few unions

804
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: in the particularly the United States, have also been conservative

805
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: bastions and bastions of different attitudes about like stuff like

806
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: white supremacy. You know, there's there's a lot of the

807
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: union movement is as much Blair Mountain as it is

808
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,399
Speaker 1: trying to stop black people from being able to work

809
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: on trains. You know, like all of those things are

810
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: part of the history. Yeah, I mean, I'll speak briefly

811
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: on like the union situation in the Caribbean, particularly in

812
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 1: turned out the trade union movement was intrinsically inextricably tied

813
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 1: with the anti colonial movements in the movement for independence.

814
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: Yours to became that the unions became tied up with

815
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: the political parties that are rules after independence and well

816
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 1: during the process of independence. But I know, happening with

817
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 1: the UNI and so was that they end up being

818
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: tied to deeply with the political parties. So that ended

819
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: up being that the established unions. You know, the higher

820
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: ups in those established unions, they have these relationships of

821
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: favors and obligations with the politicians. A lot of politicians

822
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: come out of these union movements and end up establishing

823
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: their own political careers. And because it's also tied up

824
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 1: when you workers get into these industries that do have union,

825
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: that have been unionized, there's a very clear separation between

826
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 1: the union and the workers because while the union is

827
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: able to you know, push for the workers rights, and

828
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: you know, they're still separate from the workers. The unions

829
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: still exists as a new negotiator between the workers and

830
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 1: the management. And so you have the workers which to

831
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: go beyond just negotiating. The union exists almost as a

832
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: release five for any sort of class antagonists. So any

833
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: kind of pressure, any kind of real pressure against the

834
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: start at school. I mean, it's not just unique to

835
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: to turn that outlet to the Caribean I means it's

836
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 1: globally cross history. You've seen union struggles kind of go

837
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 1: over the same sort of dynamic. You know, new generations

838
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 1: of workers, they build up the movements, they build up

839
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 1: the unions, and the unions begin to change and perhaps

840
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: new union leaders spring up to replace the old union leaders,

841
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,240
Speaker 1: one put on the same position and the same pressure

842
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: as the reacting the same way as the bureaucracy and

843
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: being rejuvenated. Unions are reformed and they end up going

844
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:51,760
Speaker 1: back to the same abay as that they had been before.

845
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: And in some cases, the fight to reform the union

846
00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 1: takes the place of the fight against the boss because

847
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: of all the bureaucracy and system of obligations and just

848
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:11,399
Speaker 1: deeply rooted ideas about the place of the union. Because well,

849
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: unionizing is a difficult process. Union leaders to tend to

850
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: enjoy certain benefits from their position, and as we are

851
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 1: aware of, you know, certain hierarchies self justifying those are

852
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 1: the top tend to want to perpetuated. It's kind of

853
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 1: like and so this idea that this is kind of

854
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: an unsettled thought of mind, but it's kind of like

855
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 1: the idea of you know, using the state to establish

856
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,720
Speaker 1: workers power and then abolishing it afterwards, you know, using

857
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: the union to get some shift workers po But then

858
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: it's expecting this union of a certain structure that exists

859
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: towards negotiating, ends to somehow pushing these sort of more

860
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:09,800
Speaker 1: radical directions. There's a saying that that um, but the

861
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: zine um the rights of the zine says, it's like

862
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: restaurant unions needed to be restaurants and we don't. I

863
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 1: think that sort of applies more broadly because when we

864
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:25,839
Speaker 1: get into the whole idea of like work apbulation, it's

865
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 1: just concept of workers are people outside of work, but

866
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:39,399
Speaker 1: a workers union exists within the confines of work as

867
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 1: we understand it. So I think that's where the difficulty lies.

868
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: The zine goes on to say later on that every

869
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,840
Speaker 1: time we attack the system, but we don't destroy it,

870
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 1: it changes and in turn changes us, and the train

871
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 1: of the next fight gains are tuned against us, and

872
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 1: we are stuck back in the same situation at work.

873
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: The boss to try to keep us looking for individual

874
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: solutions or solutions within an individual workplace or an individual trade.

875
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: But the only way that we can free ourselves is

876
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: to broaden and deepen our fight. We involve worcause from

877
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: other workplaces, other industries, and other regions. We attack more

878
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:22,280
Speaker 1: and more fundamental things. The desire to destroy restaurants becomes

879
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 1: a desire to destroy the conditions that create restaurants. We

880
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: aren't just fighting for representation in or control over the

881
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: production process or fighters and against the act of chopping

882
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: vegetables and washing dishes, or poor and bear or even

883
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: serving foods other people. Is with the way all of

884
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: these acts are brought together in a restaurant, separated from

885
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: other acts, become part of the economy. And I used

886
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 1: to expand capital. The starting and ending point to this

887
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: process is a society of capitalists and people forced to

888
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: work for them. We want an enter this. We want

889
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 1: to destroy the production process or something outside and against us.

890
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: We're fighting for a world of productive activity, fulfills. The

891
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: need is an expression of our lives, not forced on

892
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: us in exchange for a wage. A world were produce

893
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 1: for each other directly, and I don't know where to

894
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 1: sell to each other. The struggle of restaurant workers is

895
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 1: ultimately for a world without restaurants or workers. And I

896
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 1: mean so, I think people are still going to call

897
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 1: small degensives restaurants restaurants anyway, probably, But I hope this

898
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: discussion as cause equals kind of deepen approach to this.

899
00:55:56,239 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here. I am Robert d

900
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 1: uh and this is a podcast about things falling apart

901
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 1: and sometimes how to put them all together. And you know,

902
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: today we're actually going to be talking more about the ladder,

903
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 1: which I know is revolutionary for us. We're usually just

904
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 1: kind of like getting way more into the doom er stuff.

905
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: But I think there's been more than enough of that,

906
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,720
Speaker 1: particularly in the wake of several horrific Supreme Court rulings

907
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 1: that I don't really need feel the need to go

908
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: into detail on, but one of the things that has

909
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 1: happened in the wake of these rulings this this like

910
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: kind of liberal reaction to the fact that to the

911
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 1: fact and they're right to be angry about the fact

912
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 1: that they're being essentially governed by a small minority of

913
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,760
Speaker 1: people who are very densely geographically located in the South,

914
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: that is where like the bulk of the support for

915
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: the the hard rights policies comes from. Um and it's

916
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:49,359
Speaker 1: led to this like fuck Texas, Fuck Florida, Fuck uh,

917
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: these these quote unquote like red states, these regressive states,

918
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: which is this deeply problematic for a number of reasons,

919
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 1: including the fact that you know, if you just want

920
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: to look at it in terms of party politics, there

921
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 1: were more people who voted for a Democrat in Texas

922
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 1: in the election than live in either the state of

923
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: Oregon or Washington. UM. These are densely populated places with

924
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,399
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of people who are people of color,

925
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: who are trans who are you know, in some way

926
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 1: threatened by this weird Cristo fascist bullshit that is increasingly

927
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 1: clamping down on the country. And so today I wanted

928
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: to talk with some folks who will live in and

929
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: around the Dallas, Texas what we call the DFW areat

930
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 1: Dallas Fort Worth, UM, and who have lately been organizing

931
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 1: to kind of both confront this, uh, this rising Cristo

932
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 1: fascist like the street aggression portion of it, and to

933
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 1: provide support in defense um for people who are are

934
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 1: being victimized by it. So I'd like to welcome some

935
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 1: representatives of the Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club to

936
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 1: the show. Hey, y'all, boy, Yeah, do you want to

937
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: kind of introduce yourselves to to start? However you'd like

938
00:57:53,800 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: to be known on the show? I'm Satan, I'm bubble

939
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: Satan and bubble um And how long have y'all been

940
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 1: like doing Because there's there's two specific things that kind

941
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: of I don't know, I became aware of y'all, and

942
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:14,439
Speaker 1: and we had some brief interactions, right, It's a brief

943
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 1: interaction that some of your folks during the the snow

944
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: thing that that destroyed everything, um. And so I've been

945
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: kind of watching y'all socials ever since. And there were

946
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:29,479
Speaker 1: a couple of things recently that struck me as very

947
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: uh worth discussion actions that you y'all were a part of.

948
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 1: One of them was there's a neighborhood in Dallas called

949
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: Oak Lawn that is kind of colloquially known as the gighborhood.

950
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: It is like the um the gay neighborhood in Dallas obviously,

951
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: and so it's a place that you know, even before

952
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: kind of things got a little easier after twenty um,

953
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 1: it was kind of a safe place and a little

954
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: bit like of a of a of a fortress for

955
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,040
Speaker 1: like people who are not you know, straight and this

956
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 1: gender which is and kind of are you know, for

957
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 1: for an idea of how aspects of the df W

958
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: area can be. The town I grew up in, Plano,

959
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 1: had a condoms to go move in, and within like

960
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 1: two nights of setting up shop and Plano, somebody fired

961
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 1: a nine millimeter handgun through the window like it's not

962
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: a it's a place where it could be difficult. UM.

963
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: And so obviously repression and kind of violence and fears

964
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 1: of vigilante violence um from folks who are queer has

965
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: is understandably amped up in the wake of everything that's

966
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 1: been happening. And y'all carried out an action where a

967
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 1: sizeable group of leftists marched armed through the gaghborhood. Um.

968
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 1: The one of the there were a couple of different

969
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:46,440
Speaker 1: chants that that I was hearing. One of them was,

970
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: um about bashing back something like that. You want to

971
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about like that action and what

972
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 1: actually went down. Um. Sure. So at the beginning of

973
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 1: Pride Month, we had a large group of fascists come

974
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 1: to the gighborhood. Um, you know, they were shouting groomer,

975
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: they were telling us the fist of Christ is coming

976
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 1: down on you soon and um, you know, making really

977
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 1: out their threats. So we discussed, um, you know, what

978
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: we could do to be proactive to make sure that

979
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 1: doesn't happen again. Um. And we ended up getting together

980
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 1: some groups who were interested in an armed demonstration, which

981
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: even here in Texas is not something you see too often. UM.

982
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 1: And we decided to march through the gabhborhood. You know, Um,

983
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: I would say a majority of the people that we

984
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 1: know are LGBT and h it's our neighborhood. So you know,

985
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 1: we put on this demonstration there and it was, you know,

986
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 1: kind of incredible. We got some looks, but we also

987
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 1: got a lot of support. Um, we had a lot

988
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 1: of great chance. Um. You know, bottoms tops we all

989
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 1: hate cops. There we go. Yeah, yeah, that was the

990
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 1: that was the one that was in the video. Um.

991
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: And so what was the I'm interested in kind of

992
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: because I think this is the kind of thing that

993
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 1: is potentially very useful. We we have seen. One of

994
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 1: the things that I have personally observed and that has

995
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 1: been observed by a number of folks, is that when

996
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 1: these kind of right wing mobs who primarily want people

997
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 1: who cannot defend themselves, who don't have the numbers to

998
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: defend themselves, they want to like beat the ship out

999
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 1: of people in a gang, right Like, that's that's the

1000
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 1: proud boy thing, that's the Patriot prayer thing. That's all

1001
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 1: these weird little groups. Primarily what they want to do.

1002
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 1: They don't want a fair fight. And when they are

1003
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 1: confronted with organized people on the left who are armed,

1004
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 1: that tends to scare the ship out of them. And

1005
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, during that day where you had

1006
01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 1: those Christian fascists kind of coming after um that Queer

1007
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:03,439
Speaker 1: family event, like one of the one of the live

1008
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 1: streams that one of the right wingers had, people were

1009
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 1: some of them were like commenting on the fact that

1010
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 1: there were people leftist open carrying and like how unsettling

1011
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 1: they found that. Um So I'm interested in kind of

1012
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: how the idea too, we're going to do this, have

1013
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 1: this kind of a march, you know, through this neighborhood,

1014
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 1: we're going to make sort of a show beforce. How

1015
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 1: that idea kind of came together? And then what logistically

1016
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 1: did y'all like feel the need to set up, Like

1017
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess it wasn't as simple as like hey,

1018
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 1: everybody with a gun, like come come meet here and

1019
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 1: we're gonna have us a walk. Um So I'm interested

1020
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: in kind of what the logistics are because I think

1021
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: this is the kind of thing that people other people

1022
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 1: are going to want, like find useful to do, like

1023
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 1: statements of we are here, we have the tools to

1024
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 1: defend ourselves and we're not going to just passively let

1025
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 1: you run through our neighborhoods fucking with us. I think logistically,

1026
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,439
Speaker 1: one of the big things was just making sure that,

1027
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 1: you know, everyone who was carrying was carrying properly, and

1028
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,440
Speaker 1: then also to protect our own selves, making sure that

1029
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,920
Speaker 1: whoever was carrying was also protecting our identity by wearing

1030
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: essentially full black walk UM, which that in itself sends

1031
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 1: a message. You know, a bunch of queer people marching

1032
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 1: through the streets of Dallas and full black block with

1033
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 1: guns UM sends a message like we're not going to

1034
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 1: take your ship. We're done. You know, you're not gonna

1035
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 1: mess with our bodily autonomy. UM. That march happened, We

1036
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 1: had planned it to be on that day originally, and

1037
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 1: that happened to be the day that Robie Wade was

1038
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 1: overturned UM, and it essentially just evolved that morning to

1039
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 1: a more intersectional body bodily autonomy march. But really logistically

1040
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 1: it was mostly about protecting ourselves and making sure that

1041
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 1: people who weren't carrying the firearms were also so protected

1042
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 1: from our firearms. Yeah, I want to dive into that

1043
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 1: a little bit, because that's so an important aspect of

1044
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 1: it is the ensuring saying. I have seen a lot

1045
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 1: of marches, and I will be honest, I've seen a

1046
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: lot of people being armed on on both sides politically,

1047
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,440
Speaker 1: who have done things with guns that I would consider reckless.

1048
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,440
Speaker 1: Probably the top moment in my mind is during a

1049
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 1: big march in Portland somebody leaned over and a glock

1050
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 1: fell out of the front pouch of their hoodie that

1051
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: they were just head loose in there. Um yeah, UM,

1052
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 1: So obviously it is not as it should not be

1053
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 1: as simple as like, you know, load up on guns

1054
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 1: and bring your friends, so to speak. How do you

1055
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 1: attempt to ensure like how like how do you actually

1056
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 1: go about handling the safety aspect? Is it? Like? Are

1057
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 1: you appointing essentially kind of like range officers. Before the march,

1058
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:45,880
Speaker 1: we were keeping an eye on ship, like what does

1059
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 1: that actually look like? Um? I want to I want

1060
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 1: to give two examples for the march we did in

1061
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,680
Speaker 1: the gighborhood. Um, it was different in that it wasn't

1062
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 1: publicly announced wearing um it was going to be, so

1063
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 1: it was kind of a by invitation only demonstration, so

1064
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 1: we knew pretty much everybody that was coming, except for

1065
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 1: people in the neighborhood who kind of joined ad hawc UM.

1066
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 1: So that's one way that we've done things. When we

1067
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 1: do more of like uh protest security for other actions. UM.

1068
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 1: You know, there are different people who will feel motivated

1069
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 1: to bring UM arms and usually they know what they're

1070
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 1: doing pretty well. In a couple of instances where someone

1071
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 1: is being unsafe, UM, you know, one of us will

1072
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 1: just go over there and talk to them, you know,

1073
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 1: like hey, you you you really need a sling uh

1074
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 1: for this, or you know, don't don't be uh pointing

1075
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:46,959
Speaker 1: it in any way at a building. UM. Just little

1076
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:51,560
Speaker 1: tips like that too, you know, resolve the behavior. So

1077
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 1: when it actually comes to like uh because because one

1078
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 1: of the things like whenever you have sort of a

1079
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,560
Speaker 1: gathering like this is is de escalation and even within

1080
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 1: people within the march potentially like dispute resolution and that

1081
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: sort of thing. What was the how how did you

1082
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 1: kind of organize for that? Like what was the planning

1083
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 1: on that? And like, um, I think that's a really

1084
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 1: important question. One of the first things that we decided

1085
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 1: pretty early on is that we are not there to

1086
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:22,720
Speaker 1: police any protesters. So you know if someone is is

1087
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:26,439
Speaker 1: doing something illegal. Uh, And no, at no point where

1088
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 1: we you know, tell them to stop or try to

1089
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:31,000
Speaker 1: make them stop. We may move away from the area

1090
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 1: or something like that, but we're not there too police

1091
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 1: our people at all. When it comes to like counters

1092
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 1: coming up in antagonizing, the main thing we do is

1093
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:46,720
Speaker 1: try to put ourselves between them and any people they're targeting. Um.

1094
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:48,920
Speaker 1: And you know, we have cameras, we have less than lethal,

1095
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 1: we have different tools to try to de escalate that. Yeah,

1096
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:57,360
Speaker 1: And so when it comes to like, uh, I guess

1097
01:06:57,400 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 1: training on that end, did you kind did you have

1098
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 1: any sort of like um um infrastructure, human infrastructure whatnot

1099
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 1: set up prior to this to like make sure people

1100
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 1: who were like doing de escalation were folks that you knew,

1101
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 1: you know, had some level of understanding of it, or

1102
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 1: folks that you could trust. Like how was the actual

1103
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 1: how do you actually because I mean, it strikes me

1104
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 1: that there is a great deal of like trust that's

1105
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 1: necessary to put together something like this, To be able

1106
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:24,680
Speaker 1: to meet up with folks and and like march armed

1107
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:27,920
Speaker 1: together requires probably a little bit more in in the

1108
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 1: way of of of trust than you know, just showing

1109
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:35,640
Speaker 1: up at a protest. UM, that's kind of more conventional. Um.

1110
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 1: Was there sort of some in any kind of like

1111
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, system or or like yeah, training or

1112
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,720
Speaker 1: whatnot that y'all had for specifically like how to behave

1113
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 1: how to de escalate all that kind of stuff. Or

1114
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 1: was it just like folks that kind of you knew

1115
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 1: from from prior events were good at that sort of thing.

1116
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 1: I mean, as far as our group goes, UM, I

1117
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,480
Speaker 1: can speak to myself personally and say that I trust

1118
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 1: one of our people with my life. UM. And I

1119
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 1: think because of that, and because we were really the

1120
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 1: ones putting it on, like we knew that if something

1121
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 1: were to go down, one of us would get in

1122
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:16,360
Speaker 1: the middle of it, and we all trust each other.

1123
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:20,759
Speaker 1: I think that in any sort of organizing environment, trusting

1124
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 1: trusting the people that you're working with is one of

1125
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:27,519
Speaker 1: the most vital things that you can do because they're

1126
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 1: going to be the ones beside you when a proud

1127
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 1: boy rolls up and you want the person decide you

1128
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 1: to be someone that you can trust. UM, And we

1129
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,720
Speaker 1: do that. We do have you know, we we do practice,

1130
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 1: and we do train together, and UM, we also have

1131
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 1: fun together and having that certain level of trust means

1132
01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 1: the world when you're putting yourself out there in that way.

1133
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:53,720
Speaker 1: And how long of the folks that are kind of

1134
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:57,880
Speaker 1: like you're, we're most affiliated with like making this happen.

1135
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:00,120
Speaker 1: How long have you all been sort of organizing and

1136
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:03,759
Speaker 1: and doing stuff together. I would say most of us met,

1137
01:09:04,280 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 1: since all of us met in organizing different facilities during

1138
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:15,600
Speaker 1: after the FOD protests and then just to boom in

1139
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 1: mutual aid that happened in DFW after that, Whether it

1140
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:25,040
Speaker 1: was through Homeless Outreach or um, you know, bell bonds

1141
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 1: or however we met each other, it was mostly through

1142
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:30,720
Speaker 1: that mutual aid community and getting out in the our

1143
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 1: communities and organizing ourselves and trying to find like minded

1144
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:40,280
Speaker 1: people who wanted to see the same change happened. Now. UM,

1145
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:42,760
Speaker 1: I think one of the uh, one of the things

1146
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 1: that's been on my mind a lot lately, and that

1147
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 1: that y'all particularly bring up, is the challenges of organizing

1148
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 1: in parts of the country where not just you know,

1149
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:56,880
Speaker 1: the police who are always pretty regressive, but the entire

1150
01:09:57,000 --> 01:10:01,240
Speaker 1: legal structure is set up to as Florida has increasing,

1151
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 1: thevential number states have done like punished protests. Penalized activism

1152
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:08,920
Speaker 1: make things more dangerous for for for people who are

1153
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 1: like going out there in public in addition to doing

1154
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 1: things to try and criminalize you know, people who are

1155
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:20,160
Speaker 1: are are not uh straight, you know, white Christians. UM.

1156
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:22,759
Speaker 1: So when you look at like kind of the challenges

1157
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:25,040
Speaker 1: of organizing in a place where it's more dangerous, and

1158
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 1: obviously it's it's not particularly safe to be organizing against

1159
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:29,439
Speaker 1: you know, the l A p D. But the court

1160
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 1: system in California is broadly speaking less stacked against you. UM.

1161
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:37,719
Speaker 1: So if you had advice to give to people who

1162
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 1: had don't have this group of friends and people they've

1163
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 1: been organizing with for a couple of years already, but

1164
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:45,080
Speaker 1: they want to have that, they want to build that

1165
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:49,160
Speaker 1: in their community, where would you suggest they start? UM.

1166
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:52,720
Speaker 1: I always tell people that it starts by showing up

1167
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:56,559
Speaker 1: um to all kinds of events, you know, supporting a

1168
01:10:56,560 --> 01:11:01,200
Speaker 1: broad range of groups. And you know, you're at the protests,

1169
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:05,880
Speaker 1: if you are at the feedings, the distributions, UM, You're

1170
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 1: gonna meet people and you're gonna build trust um, mutual

1171
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,280
Speaker 1: trust there UM So that you know, when you want

1172
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:14,040
Speaker 1: to start a project, you want to start a group,

1173
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:18,120
Speaker 1: you'll have those people that know you. Um, it is

1174
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:22,160
Speaker 1: very dangerous. Uh. I think it's always important to tell

1175
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:24,840
Speaker 1: people to watch your op set. You know, don't be

1176
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 1: re sharing all kinds of activist stuff with your personal

1177
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:31,800
Speaker 1: profile that has your name and your birthday and all

1178
01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:34,320
Speaker 1: of that. But yeah, it really goes to meeting people

1179
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: in person, I think. Yeah, And um, I mean that's

1180
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:40,640
Speaker 1: such a difficult part of it because I think for

1181
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:42,960
Speaker 1: a lot of people, particularly who maybe are living in

1182
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 1: rural areas, who are living, um, kind of outside of

1183
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 1: places that have well formed protest communities, social media and

1184
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:53,639
Speaker 1: the internet is is a lifeline for them and often

1185
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 1: in a lot of cases like how they came to

1186
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:57,720
Speaker 1: a lot of the political beliefs in a desire to

1187
01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 1: do something. Um, but you're like, you can't. You have

1188
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:05,360
Speaker 1: to actually get like face to face on the ground

1189
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:07,760
Speaker 1: with people to actually build the kind of relationships that

1190
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 1: can lead to the sort of activism that y'all are doing.

1191
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 1: And that's that is a tough needle for a lot

1192
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 1: of people to threat I think, and you know, in

1193
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 1: those more rural communities, if there's not already those systems

1194
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 1: in place, you know, set up a monthly mail distribution

1195
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 1: with the local homeless shelter, the local homeless camp. And

1196
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:31,800
Speaker 1: if you you know, can get a few friends, more

1197
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 1: people will show up and you can build that community yourself,

1198
01:12:35,120 --> 01:12:39,240
Speaker 1: even where it's not existing already. UM. It's more about

1199
01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:42,959
Speaker 1: just finding those like minded individuals that are already existing

1200
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:46,599
Speaker 1: in your community and getting to know your neighbors. Yeah,

1201
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 1: to trust your neighbors. I think that's a great as

1202
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 1: far as the plan of action goes as good as

1203
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:54,679
Speaker 1: you can get for at least starting down that road. UM.

1204
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 1: Before we kind of move on from this specific action,

1205
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:58,280
Speaker 1: I did want to talk a little bit about the

1206
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:01,600
Speaker 1: conversations you had both with like people who lived in

1207
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:07,360
Speaker 1: Oaklawn and also with um, you know, passers by. I'm wondering, like, UM,

1208
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:09,680
Speaker 1: did you have any that particularly surprised you or that

1209
01:13:10,080 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 1: particularly stick out to you right now? I personally was

1210
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:17,559
Speaker 1: a little bit more surprised with the amount of support

1211
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:21,640
Speaker 1: that we received, um, just because while Oaklawn is the

1212
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 1: gighborhood is generally more blue liberal, yes, park Town very

1213
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 1: anti gun typically yea, very yea. And to see you know,

1214
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 1: people sitting on the patios of the bars carrying for

1215
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:41,320
Speaker 1: us while we were walking by. Especially as someone who

1216
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:44,240
Speaker 1: has been you know, grown up in that area, it

1217
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:47,760
Speaker 1: meant a lot. You know. It really shows almost like

1218
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:50,439
Speaker 1: the cultural shift that we're going as far as left

1219
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:53,480
Speaker 1: this politics go. If people are going to be supportive

1220
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:56,640
Speaker 1: of us. Yeah, that's really interesting to hear. And now

1221
01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:59,680
Speaker 1: I were there, did you have any kind of interactions

1222
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 1: with out of I don't know people who were who

1223
01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 1: were more conservative or more on the on the center

1224
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:07,880
Speaker 1: right side of things. I think we had a couple

1225
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:11,320
Speaker 1: of people who were kind of filming and frowning. It's

1226
01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:14,320
Speaker 1: always hard to tell, yeah, in that case, but no

1227
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:20,880
Speaker 1: one really said anything to us. That's interesting. Yeah, And

1228
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:22,600
Speaker 1: now that was that what that kind of brings me

1229
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:25,680
Speaker 1: to the next topic, which is how how how did

1230
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:30,120
Speaker 1: Dallas how to DPD handle this? Un hardly out of

1231
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:35,080
Speaker 1: our cars and multiple police cars surrounding us while we

1232
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:40,320
Speaker 1: were just unloading um. They were constantly trying to guess

1233
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:43,719
Speaker 1: where we were going with the mark um by cutting

1234
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:48,599
Speaker 1: off streets and trying to like escort us and like

1235
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:53,559
Speaker 1: you know, blocking traffic and things like that. But but

1236
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:57,160
Speaker 1: we were there less than five minutes before I would

1237
01:14:57,200 --> 01:15:01,799
Speaker 1: say at least four police cars were surrounding us, asking

1238
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:04,920
Speaker 1: us questions. They were pulling out their guns like we

1239
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:10,160
Speaker 1: were a threat. Geez. Um, Well, I mean yeah, that's

1240
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:13,720
Speaker 1: that doesn't surprise me. Um. Did you have any kind

1241
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:16,320
Speaker 1: of like direct is did they send like the p

1242
01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:18,679
Speaker 1: I O s up to try and you know, talk

1243
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:22,280
Speaker 1: with organizers or whatever? Um? So they did right at

1244
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 1: the beginning, and I think that interaction went really well,

1245
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,960
Speaker 1: um because they approached us as we were getting ready,

1246
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:32,759
Speaker 1: and they said, you know, what group is this, Who's

1247
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:36,880
Speaker 1: in charge, who's who's leading? What are your plans? And

1248
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:40,880
Speaker 1: you know, every single person who was there was disciplined

1249
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:43,639
Speaker 1: enough to either say nothing or say no plans. There's

1250
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: no group, there's no leaders. And you know after that,

1251
01:15:47,040 --> 01:15:53,160
Speaker 1: they kept their distance. They did not really interfere more. Yeah,

1252
01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:57,240
Speaker 1: I mean that that is one of those things um,

1253
01:15:57,400 --> 01:16:02,400
Speaker 1: that police know. I've always found it useful too when

1254
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:04,720
Speaker 1: you are having when you have to have an interaction

1255
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:09,640
Speaker 1: with a police officer and um, sometimes it is unavoidable,

1256
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:12,120
Speaker 1: like you need to kind of focus on like what

1257
01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:13,760
Speaker 1: are the things that they need to hear for this

1258
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:17,280
Speaker 1: interaction to like end, um and end you know, not

1259
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 1: in them getting violent. Um. And I think it sounds like, yeah,

1260
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:23,439
Speaker 1: you you you'll handled it perfectly like that that was

1261
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 1: the right way for everyone to react, like you were.

1262
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 1: It is Texas, Like it's not like it is at

1263
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:33,519
Speaker 1: all illegal to walk around with guns. Um, so yeah,

1264
01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:37,160
Speaker 1: I mean that's that sounds that sounds again. I'm impressed

1265
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:41,040
Speaker 1: by kind of both the boldness of the action but

1266
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:44,240
Speaker 1: also the discipline that that was required to actually that

1267
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:47,240
Speaker 1: was required like from the ground up right, not not

1268
01:16:47,320 --> 01:16:49,639
Speaker 1: because like the there was some sort of like vanguard

1269
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:53,800
Speaker 1: leadership exerting force downward in order to actually make this

1270
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:56,959
Speaker 1: work safely and in a way that that left hopefully

1271
01:16:56,960 --> 01:16:59,400
Speaker 1: and it seems like this is the case people who

1272
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:02,640
Speaker 1: live in the area feeling broadly speaking pretty good about it.

1273
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:07,160
Speaker 1: I would say that, you know, since the march, in particular,

1274
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:11,760
Speaker 1: just in DFW in its entirety, the support that we

1275
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:17,040
Speaker 1: have received has been almost overwhelming. Um. You know, people

1276
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 1: now recognize the people in black Walk as being safe

1277
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:24,880
Speaker 1: and they're going to help us. If I need something,

1278
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:28,160
Speaker 1: I can go to them. And that's the whole purpose

1279
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:32,760
Speaker 1: of community defenses. Having Michael would be to have everyone

1280
01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 1: be that person. Uh. Now, the other thing I would wonder,

1281
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:40,240
Speaker 1: because it's I you know, I've spent a lot of

1282
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:43,400
Speaker 1: time at black block protests, but generally in Portland, Oregon,

1283
01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:47,160
Speaker 1: where a hot day is like eighty degrees, UM, y'all

1284
01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:50,960
Speaker 1: are in fucking DFW UM. Those those summers are no joke.

1285
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:53,800
Speaker 1: And wearing the gear that y'all are wearing is is

1286
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 1: UM a potentially dangerous thing? Right? Like? Was there was there?

1287
01:17:58,040 --> 01:18:00,360
Speaker 1: Was it kind of individual or left up to infinity

1288
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:02,559
Speaker 1: groups to like figure out hydration and stuff, or did

1289
01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:05,080
Speaker 1: you have people who are kind of watching folks and

1290
01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:07,240
Speaker 1: reminding them and like trying to ensure that like that

1291
01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:08,960
Speaker 1: part of it was handled. Because that does strike me

1292
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:11,800
Speaker 1: as a specific risk in this case. Most of us

1293
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:16,360
Speaker 1: do have UM at least minor street medic training UM,

1294
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:19,240
Speaker 1: as well as our own hydration kits, and we all

1295
01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:23,599
Speaker 1: carry extra electrolytes and things like that for people who

1296
01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:26,040
Speaker 1: may not be part of our group who may also

1297
01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:29,639
Speaker 1: need assistance. UM. That's a big part of it here

1298
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:32,760
Speaker 1: in Texas is that's that's the main risk with protesting

1299
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 1: in the summer is dehydration, heat exhaustion, he stroke. You know,

1300
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:40,679
Speaker 1: we do recommend that the people who are in black

1301
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:46,280
Speaker 1: blog where moisture within loose layers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Marino

1302
01:18:46,479 --> 01:18:48,880
Speaker 1: is your friend if you can get it, Yeah, exactly.

1303
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:53,160
Speaker 1: But you know, we all of us are you know,

1304
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:56,160
Speaker 1: at least trained enough to recognize those symptoms. We make

1305
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:59,759
Speaker 1: scenes that we can pass out to people, UM about

1306
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:03,400
Speaker 1: how to protest safely in the summer, in the heat specifically.

1307
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:08,080
Speaker 1: That's great, much more dangerous. Now. One of the things

1308
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:10,479
Speaker 1: I've been seeing recently, and this is I'm guessing from

1309
01:19:10,479 --> 01:19:13,160
Speaker 1: a more recent march, was that the photo going around

1310
01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:15,880
Speaker 1: that's kind of kind of viral on right wing social

1311
01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:19,360
Speaker 1: media of UM. It's a black and white photo. There's

1312
01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:22,960
Speaker 1: uh an individual UM with a plate carrier and an

1313
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 1: a r UM and another individual with UM like a

1314
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:29,400
Speaker 1: chest rig and what I think is a baretta um

1315
01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:33,760
Speaker 1: carbine um and uh, both of them are at a

1316
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:38,280
Speaker 1: reproductive rights march UM. And there's a mix of really

1317
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:41,760
Speaker 1: interesting reactions from the right like on this UM and

1318
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:44,960
Speaker 1: I'm interested in kind of yeah your thoughts there. Yeah,

1319
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:47,760
Speaker 1: so it's it's been really weird. UM. We try to

1320
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:51,120
Speaker 1: track whatever is being posted about us UM. Sometimes they

1321
01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:53,280
Speaker 1: can give us intel on people who might want to

1322
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:56,360
Speaker 1: target us UM. But we've been noticing, you know, it's

1323
01:19:56,360 --> 01:20:00,800
Speaker 1: like a solid third of right wing comments are kind

1324
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:03,600
Speaker 1: of broadly supportive. I think it really throws them for

1325
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:09,479
Speaker 1: a loop. Um, you know, we we've even seen people saying, actually,

1326
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:12,599
Speaker 1: bodily autonomy is a lot like gun rights and things

1327
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:18,880
Speaker 1: like that, and it's been really weird. I think, um,

1328
01:20:18,920 --> 01:20:21,559
Speaker 1: being armed might kind of humanize us for some of

1329
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:24,639
Speaker 1: those people in a way. It's been a weird thing.

1330
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 1: I have thought a couple of times that, I mean

1331
01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:29,720
Speaker 1: a number of times. I talked about this on the

1332
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:31,400
Speaker 1: first season of It could Happen here. I think that

1333
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:35,360
Speaker 1: there is some potential to bridge some divides there with

1334
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:38,120
Speaker 1: kind of the existence of of a of an increasingly

1335
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 1: prominent left wing gun culture. You know. One of the

1336
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:43,759
Speaker 1: comments I saw was somebody like going through the gear

1337
01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:46,160
Speaker 1: display and be like, actually, no, they're they're reasonably well

1338
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:48,280
Speaker 1: set up, and like everything seems like this is this

1339
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:50,719
Speaker 1: is exactly how you'd you know, want to have it done,

1340
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:54,479
Speaker 1: and just people being like actually appreciative. And I guess

1341
01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:57,040
Speaker 1: maybe there's a degree to which, like if you're if

1342
01:20:57,040 --> 01:20:59,160
Speaker 1: you're in that community from a right wing side but

1343
01:20:59,240 --> 01:21:02,400
Speaker 1: not like a straight up fascist side, maybe there's a

1344
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:05,280
Speaker 1: potential for like more commonality and like you said, the

1345
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:08,439
Speaker 1: idea that like, oh maybe some of them will actually

1346
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:12,360
Speaker 1: broaden their support for reproductive rights, um, you know, or

1347
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:14,360
Speaker 1: at least consider it. You know, I don't know that

1348
01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:16,160
Speaker 1: that doesn't strike me as like a negative move and

1349
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:21,760
Speaker 1: it it um, particularly in a place like Texas, you

1350
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:25,400
Speaker 1: have to try to at least um have some sort

1351
01:21:25,439 --> 01:21:27,439
Speaker 1: of common ground with people who are are more on

1352
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:28,920
Speaker 1: the right wing side of things, because they're so damn

1353
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:32,600
Speaker 1: many of them. Yeah, so I think, um, it's one

1354
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:36,720
Speaker 1: of those cases where when ideological where when ideology gets

1355
01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 1: atomized to just like guns good, you know, that is

1356
01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:43,680
Speaker 1: like a core belief for some people. Um, that can

1357
01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 1: draw them to being supportive of pro choice marches in

1358
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 1: a in a weird way. It's it's kind of a

1359
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:54,720
Speaker 1: pretty specific kind of brain worms. But seeing it a lot, Yeah,

1360
01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:57,280
Speaker 1: I wouldn't like call it necessarily a positive like it's

1361
01:21:57,280 --> 01:21:59,479
Speaker 1: a it's an aspect of things that are negative, but

1362
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:03,000
Speaker 1: it's something that also can be like useful and and

1363
01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:06,679
Speaker 1: potentially positive. Like even though if you get into what's

1364
01:22:06,760 --> 01:22:09,599
Speaker 1: leading someone to like, oh, I really I re examined

1365
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:12,240
Speaker 1: my beliefs on reproductive rights because I saw some people

1366
01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:15,840
Speaker 1: marching with guns. That's not like a sign of of

1367
01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:18,280
Speaker 1: a series of thought process that I think is like

1368
01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:22,360
Speaker 1: wildly positive. But at least somebody maybe came around on

1369
01:22:22,439 --> 01:22:29,200
Speaker 1: something better than going the other way. You know, we've

1370
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:32,559
Speaker 1: been talking about the effects of getting all this right

1371
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:36,639
Speaker 1: wing attention and uh, you know, in a way, that's

1372
01:22:36,680 --> 01:22:39,320
Speaker 1: what we want. We want to advertise that we have

1373
01:22:40,120 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 1: strong community defense, and on the flip side, you get

1374
01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:46,200
Speaker 1: all these supportive comments and hopefully those people don't want

1375
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:51,800
Speaker 1: to kill me anymore. So it's it's just positive. We think, Yeah,

1376
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:53,639
Speaker 1: you're I mean, one of the ways in which these

1377
01:22:53,680 --> 01:22:56,880
Speaker 1: kind of protests can increase security for a community, Like

1378
01:22:56,960 --> 01:22:59,080
Speaker 1: one way is that maybe there are people who will

1379
01:22:59,120 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 1: get scared off because they don't want to risk getting shot.

1380
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:04,600
Speaker 1: And the other is that maybe some people will re

1381
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:07,240
Speaker 1: examine their opinions on that community because it's now more

1382
01:23:07,240 --> 01:23:10,519
Speaker 1: familiar to them because there probably way too into guns.

1383
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:16,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, absolutely, so let's talk about um. There there

1384
01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:19,280
Speaker 1: was a specific action um that kind of the thing

1385
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:22,160
Speaker 1: that was going around on Twitter was these proud boys

1386
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:23,799
Speaker 1: trying to get into it, believe it was a library,

1387
01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:25,960
Speaker 1: and like a line of parents squaring off with them

1388
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:29,200
Speaker 1: to like stop them. Um. Can we talk a little

1389
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:33,080
Speaker 1: bit about that. Yeah, that was in McKinney. Um. It

1390
01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:37,200
Speaker 1: was the day after through V. Wade got overturned, And

1391
01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:41,400
Speaker 1: we honestly didn't know what to expect when we got

1392
01:23:41,439 --> 01:23:43,680
Speaker 1: there because of McKinny. We were like, are we going

1393
01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:49,320
Speaker 1: to be very much so outnumbered in this? And when

1394
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:53,559
Speaker 1: we arrived there was already about thirty to forty people

1395
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:56,840
Speaker 1: who were either parents or friends of the library there

1396
01:23:57,040 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 1: in support and maybe only the teen or twenty people

1397
01:24:01,240 --> 01:24:04,439
Speaker 1: in opposition. Um. So it was, you know, a pretty

1398
01:24:04,439 --> 01:24:09,920
Speaker 1: good welcoming, supportive environment. Um. And about thirty minutes after

1399
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:13,320
Speaker 1: we got there is when the Proud Boys arrived, and

1400
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:16,440
Speaker 1: we just really only had to tell two people, hey,

1401
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:21,320
Speaker 1: they're Proud Boys. And before I before we couldn't even

1402
01:24:21,320 --> 01:24:24,360
Speaker 1: get over there to like block them off ourselves. There

1403
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:28,960
Speaker 1: were like eight to ten soccer moms in their flip flops,

1404
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:33,120
Speaker 1: Nike shorts and handmade signs standing in front of them

1405
01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:36,800
Speaker 1: and blocking them from coming any closer. Um. And of

1406
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:40,040
Speaker 1: course they did get closer as people were leaving the

1407
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:42,800
Speaker 1: library and the event was ending and things like that.

1408
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:45,760
Speaker 1: But it was one of those things where it just

1409
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:51,240
Speaker 1: organically happened, and it was it was beautiful, like in

1410
01:24:51,000 --> 01:24:53,800
Speaker 1: in a place like McKinney of all places, like I

1411
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:57,479
Speaker 1: gw up in North Texas, like place I would expect

1412
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:02,000
Speaker 1: to find, like a soccer mom in Nike shorts asked like,

1413
01:25:02,080 --> 01:25:07,800
Speaker 1: thanking me for bringing my gun to the library. Yeah,

1414
01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:10,559
Speaker 1: that's that's wonderful to hear. I mean, and I people

1415
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:12,559
Speaker 1: who are not in the d F w U area

1416
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:14,960
Speaker 1: won't understand this, but like, yeah, I spent a significant

1417
01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:16,960
Speaker 1: chunk of my early life in McKinney, and I would

1418
01:25:16,960 --> 01:25:21,799
Speaker 1: not have expected that reaction there. Um, yeah, that's really

1419
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:24,800
Speaker 1: really good to hear. And it also is you know,

1420
01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:28,080
Speaker 1: I'm I'm. I obviously have been supportive of a number

1421
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:31,040
Speaker 1: of tactics to confront fascism, including people showing up in

1422
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:34,560
Speaker 1: block and stuff and and protesting or or or confronting

1423
01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:37,599
Speaker 1: them physically. But I don't think there's any more durable

1424
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:40,760
Speaker 1: kind of community self defense than than that, than than

1425
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:44,280
Speaker 1: a than a group of people who are just kind

1426
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:48,120
Speaker 1: of live in an area and around and curious, realizing

1427
01:25:48,160 --> 01:25:51,679
Speaker 1: there's a threat and immediately acting against it. Like that's

1428
01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:56,080
Speaker 1: such a that's such a powerful thing. Yeah, saying no,

1429
01:25:56,240 --> 01:26:00,200
Speaker 1: not in my neighborhood. And you know, again, like we

1430
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:04,000
Speaker 1: didn't expect to have that reaction, which made it that

1431
01:26:04,160 --> 01:26:07,400
Speaker 1: much better when we saw it. And you know, having

1432
01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:11,000
Speaker 1: those people for the first time in their life maybe

1433
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:16,160
Speaker 1: even can face to face correctly with fascists probably has

1434
01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:19,120
Speaker 1: a lasting impact on them as well. Like I hope

1435
01:26:19,160 --> 01:26:21,519
Speaker 1: that they keep going to more events like that and

1436
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:24,920
Speaker 1: keep going and protecting their community from these people. Now,

1437
01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:26,680
Speaker 1: let me ask you, when you have these kind of

1438
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:30,040
Speaker 1: interactions with folks, and when you had these specific interactions

1439
01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:33,280
Speaker 1: with those specific folks, is there kind of is there

1440
01:26:33,280 --> 01:26:36,479
Speaker 1: sort of an information spreading thing afterwards? Is they're like, hey,

1441
01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:38,479
Speaker 1: here's who we are, and like where you can find

1442
01:26:38,479 --> 01:26:41,559
Speaker 1: out more about us? Um, like kind of attempts to

1443
01:26:42,960 --> 01:26:44,519
Speaker 1: like let people know who you are and what you're

1444
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:47,160
Speaker 1: doing and how they can you know, follow you and whatnot.

1445
01:26:47,200 --> 01:26:50,000
Speaker 1: Like is that a is that is that a part

1446
01:26:50,040 --> 01:26:51,760
Speaker 1: of the activism or was it more just like we're

1447
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:54,360
Speaker 1: showing up to kind of provide a barrier for these

1448
01:26:54,360 --> 01:26:56,120
Speaker 1: people and like that's not this is not the time

1449
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:59,320
Speaker 1: or place for that. It's a little bit of both. Um.

1450
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:04,360
Speaker 1: A lot of these actions we are invited to. We

1451
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:07,360
Speaker 1: have kind of made it a point to be known

1452
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:11,360
Speaker 1: as we are here to help UM. So a lot

1453
01:27:11,360 --> 01:27:14,080
Speaker 1: of times we will get invited or people will send

1454
01:27:14,160 --> 01:27:17,080
Speaker 1: us an event and we will We do usually try

1455
01:27:17,120 --> 01:27:19,799
Speaker 1: to get in touch with you ever's organizing the event

1456
01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:22,840
Speaker 1: to make sure that they are comfortable with us, either

1457
01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:26,120
Speaker 1: open carrying or what they prefers to can still carry

1458
01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:31,080
Speaker 1: and things like that, UM, because it is still necessary

1459
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:36,160
Speaker 1: to be polite UM. But then also when we do,

1460
01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:39,880
Speaker 1: we always meet people at these actions who are wanting

1461
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:42,880
Speaker 1: to get more involved than just that one time, and

1462
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:46,800
Speaker 1: we do have ways for them to get involved in

1463
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:51,840
Speaker 1: their community and learn from us. Obviously, Dallas is um

1464
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:54,160
Speaker 1: It's nickname for a long time has been the City

1465
01:27:54,160 --> 01:27:57,439
Speaker 1: of Hate UM, and it is a place that is

1466
01:27:57,720 --> 01:28:00,639
Speaker 1: I mean the city itself is fairly blue, but there

1467
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:03,160
Speaker 1: is I mean, even within the Dallas area proper a

1468
01:28:03,160 --> 01:28:06,679
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of people who are like extremely conservative. Obviously,

1469
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:08,479
Speaker 1: I mean we I don't want to be harping on

1470
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:11,599
Speaker 1: this too much, but is there a degree to which

1471
01:28:11,600 --> 01:28:14,840
Speaker 1: you are concerned about like attempts at at infiltration and

1472
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:18,200
Speaker 1: whatnot or attempts to yeah, like kind of like you know,

1473
01:28:18,439 --> 01:28:20,760
Speaker 1: to do sort of the the fascist equivalent of what

1474
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:22,759
Speaker 1: a lot of anti fascists do with right wing groups.

1475
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:26,120
Speaker 1: There is a lot of concern about that. UM. We

1476
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:28,080
Speaker 1: just you know, we do the best we can. We

1477
01:28:28,080 --> 01:28:32,160
Speaker 1: think we've done a pretty good job already, clearly very

1478
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:36,720
Speaker 1: careful with um, you know, who were who were in

1479
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:39,760
Speaker 1: contact with, who were working with UM. We've had to

1480
01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:44,240
Speaker 1: you know, stop working with abusers a few times. That

1481
01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:47,920
Speaker 1: is a tough one. We don't expand nearly as much

1482
01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:51,120
Speaker 1: as we could given all the people who want to

1483
01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:55,559
Speaker 1: be part of this particular group. We believe more in

1484
01:28:56,320 --> 01:29:00,559
Speaker 1: you know, many strong groups and uh try to help

1485
01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:07,000
Speaker 1: people do that. Um. But yeah, it's a tough struggle. Yeah,

1486
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:09,200
Speaker 1: I mean that's a that's an interesting because I think

1487
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:12,080
Speaker 1: maybe a better question for me to ask is is

1488
01:29:12,120 --> 01:29:14,680
Speaker 1: not like, how do you avoid that? But how do

1489
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:17,639
Speaker 1: you avoid like? Because because the if you look back

1490
01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:19,559
Speaker 1: at the actual history of co Intel pro right and

1491
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:22,200
Speaker 1: the ship that like Hoover and his his goons were

1492
01:29:22,400 --> 01:29:25,280
Speaker 1: saying to each other, like, the goal was not to

1493
01:29:25,439 --> 01:29:28,559
Speaker 1: infiltrate every left wing movement. The goal was to make

1494
01:29:28,600 --> 01:29:31,800
Speaker 1: people be so afraid of infiltration that they weren't able

1495
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:35,240
Speaker 1: to effectively organize, and so that that is I guess

1496
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 1: kind of the real trick is this. Obviously there's a

1497
01:29:38,080 --> 01:29:39,639
Speaker 1: degree to which you want to be on your guard.

1498
01:29:39,640 --> 01:29:41,600
Speaker 1: You need to be careful. It's it's it's important to

1499
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:44,800
Speaker 1: be not just ethical, but but like responsible in your

1500
01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:48,040
Speaker 1: op set. But you also can't let like fear of

1501
01:29:48,080 --> 01:29:51,000
Speaker 1: that sort of thing happening just because you're you know,

1502
01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:53,840
Speaker 1: kind of surrounded in a place like North Texas. You

1503
01:29:53,840 --> 01:29:57,400
Speaker 1: can't let that fear stop you from from trying, right.

1504
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:01,160
Speaker 1: I think a big part of that is it goes

1505
01:30:01,240 --> 01:30:05,040
Speaker 1: back to the trust thing. You know, we don't really

1506
01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:10,800
Speaker 1: let people into the close folds until they've come to

1507
01:30:10,920 --> 01:30:14,519
Speaker 1: a few actions with us and they've you know, proven

1508
01:30:14,560 --> 01:30:17,519
Speaker 1: that they're not you know, spilling the beans all over

1509
01:30:17,560 --> 01:30:21,320
Speaker 1: Twitter and yeah that you know, um, we know who

1510
01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:24,400
Speaker 1: they are and know what they're about, and then we

1511
01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:27,559
Speaker 1: involved them a little bit more. Um. It's all about

1512
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:30,080
Speaker 1: building that trust with the people you're working with. It

1513
01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:32,880
Speaker 1: just goes right back to that is you know, trust

1514
01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:36,559
Speaker 1: is built over time, um, And the longer we all

1515
01:30:36,600 --> 01:30:39,200
Speaker 1: know each other, the more we trust each other, and

1516
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:42,640
Speaker 1: then you know, we are able to have those conversations

1517
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:46,360
Speaker 1: about welcoming more people in and um, you know, setting

1518
01:30:46,400 --> 01:30:50,400
Speaker 1: up the processes for that now has just on a

1519
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:54,719
Speaker 1: logistical standpoint, that kind of notoriety i'll have have gained

1520
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:57,280
Speaker 1: because of some of these actions. Has it sort of

1521
01:30:57,360 --> 01:31:01,040
Speaker 1: led to like difficulty in terms of we were dealing

1522
01:31:01,080 --> 01:31:03,280
Speaker 1: with like so many much interest, so many people reaching

1523
01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:05,200
Speaker 1: out to us, like how do you how do you

1524
01:31:05,200 --> 01:31:08,360
Speaker 1: actually like organize kind of that, like how you how

1525
01:31:08,400 --> 01:31:11,439
Speaker 1: you respond to people when ship goes viral? You know,

1526
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:15,000
Speaker 1: I I know how overwhelming that can be. Yeah, that's

1527
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:19,000
Speaker 1: been pretty new to us. Um. We've been more used

1528
01:31:19,040 --> 01:31:22,719
Speaker 1: to being kind of your local crew that does things

1529
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:26,320
Speaker 1: no one ever talks about. And uh, having a larger

1530
01:31:26,360 --> 01:31:30,800
Speaker 1: profile now is a challenge because we do know, you know,

1531
01:31:31,720 --> 01:31:36,520
Speaker 1: attracting a lot more attention you know, put some constraints

1532
01:31:36,560 --> 01:31:39,200
Speaker 1: on us. Um, but I think that goes back to

1533
01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:41,479
Speaker 1: why it's important to have a lot of different groups

1534
01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:44,160
Speaker 1: doing a lot of different stuff. Um. You know, you

1535
01:31:44,200 --> 01:31:49,240
Speaker 1: can't just have one uh group, uh doing all the

1536
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 1: organizing that needs to be done in an area. It's

1537
01:31:51,400 --> 01:31:55,559
Speaker 1: just a bad idea. You know, if a group gets

1538
01:31:55,560 --> 01:31:58,960
Speaker 1: taken out for a variety of reasons you don't want

1539
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:02,320
Speaker 1: everything to fall apart. Yeah, so I guess kind of

1540
01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:04,920
Speaker 1: as we come to probably close to the end of

1541
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:06,519
Speaker 1: this where there were there are things that I didn't

1542
01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:08,360
Speaker 1: get into that you wanted to talk to about what

1543
01:32:08,439 --> 01:32:11,120
Speaker 1: y'all are doing and kind of what you want other

1544
01:32:11,160 --> 01:32:13,920
Speaker 1: people know, particularly folks who I don't know we're in

1545
01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:17,280
Speaker 1: in Louisville or and you know, fucking Idabelle, Oklahoma, and

1546
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:22,759
Speaker 1: UM kind of want to feel want to build UM

1547
01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:26,240
Speaker 1: or at least help to help to protect their community

1548
01:32:26,640 --> 01:32:32,719
Speaker 1: in a place that UM, there's additional challenges in doing so. Yeah,

1549
01:32:32,960 --> 01:32:36,280
Speaker 1: I've seen that recurring events no matter what it is,

1550
01:32:36,439 --> 01:32:39,600
Speaker 1: you know, book club distribution, if there's a place that

1551
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:42,960
Speaker 1: people can find you regularly, that's a great way to

1552
01:32:43,040 --> 01:32:44,960
Speaker 1: have the kind of people you want to meet, you know,

1553
01:32:45,080 --> 01:32:49,559
Speaker 1: just just walk up and talk to you, UM for

1554
01:32:49,600 --> 01:32:51,639
Speaker 1: me what you know, watching your ops set and also

1555
01:32:51,680 --> 01:32:54,920
Speaker 1: compartmentalizing your information, like if I don't need to know something,

1556
01:32:54,920 --> 01:32:57,640
Speaker 1: I don't want to know it, UM, And that's a

1557
01:32:57,680 --> 01:33:01,719
Speaker 1: good way to stay safe while also you know, being

1558
01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:05,559
Speaker 1: able to organize and take action because like you said earlier,

1559
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:08,200
Speaker 1: the most important thing is the will to do something.

1560
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:11,000
Speaker 1: If you're just you know, the safest thing you can

1561
01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:14,280
Speaker 1: do is stay in your basement, but then no one

1562
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:18,240
Speaker 1: will do anything. Yeah, exactly right. Um, was there anything

1563
01:33:18,280 --> 01:33:20,240
Speaker 1: else either of you all wanted to get into. I

1564
01:33:20,240 --> 01:33:22,800
Speaker 1: guess I also want to plug passing on training. So

1565
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:28,639
Speaker 1: whatever skills you have, we've taught, um medical stuff, how

1566
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:32,959
Speaker 1: to do an oil change, um, how to fire gun stuff,

1567
01:33:33,120 --> 01:33:37,559
Speaker 1: martial arts you know, unarmed fighting is also important. Um,

1568
01:33:38,880 --> 01:33:41,519
Speaker 1: share knowledge with each other, you know, make each other

1569
01:33:41,560 --> 01:33:45,519
Speaker 1: more powerful in that way. Yeah, that is a I

1570
01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:47,800
Speaker 1: think a great line to end on. Um, thank you

1571
01:33:47,840 --> 01:33:52,160
Speaker 1: everybody else and um yeah, um you can check out. Actually,

1572
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:55,880
Speaker 1: you guys want to plug your your your socials, you

1573
01:33:55,880 --> 01:33:59,360
Speaker 1: could follow me at bubble break on Twitter and um

1574
01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:02,799
Speaker 1: it's kind of out now, but you can follow Anarco

1575
01:34:02,880 --> 01:34:09,720
Speaker 1: air softest we have trained on there excellent, and then

1576
01:34:09,760 --> 01:34:13,599
Speaker 1: of course, uh Domeport John Brown Gun Club on pretty

1577
01:34:13,680 --> 01:34:19,439
Speaker 1: much all platforms currently. Yeah. I never got into TikTok

1578
01:34:19,520 --> 01:34:40,479
Speaker 1: either one of these days. All right, everybody, that's the episode.

1579
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:53,559
Speaker 1: What uh inspiring networks of violent accelerationism my nihilistic loss

1580
01:34:53,600 --> 01:35:00,600
Speaker 1: of faith in the possibility of human progress, And I

1581
01:35:00,600 --> 01:35:02,200
Speaker 1: don't I don't. I don't know. That's probably not a

1582
01:35:02,240 --> 01:35:05,080
Speaker 1: good way to Yeah, I'd be like that sometimes, Garrison,

1583
01:35:05,200 --> 01:35:06,760
Speaker 1: what are we What are we talking about today? This

1584
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:09,639
Speaker 1: is it could happen here podcast, Bad Things, World falling apart.

1585
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:12,240
Speaker 1: There's just been a big shooting in Boston. You probably

1586
01:35:12,280 --> 01:35:21,439
Speaker 1: about Chicago, not Boston. Boston, not Boston, not this. I

1587
01:35:21,479 --> 01:35:23,920
Speaker 1: was thinking about the Boston bombing. Oh, there we go.

1588
01:35:24,280 --> 01:35:27,000
Speaker 1: It's also not really in Chicago. We should know. It's

1589
01:35:27,040 --> 01:35:32,280
Speaker 1: like thirty right, Yeah, yeah, it's like it's it's it's

1590
01:35:32,320 --> 01:35:35,479
Speaker 1: it's a it's a northern suburb. Yeah, it's like it's

1591
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:38,400
Speaker 1: and yeah, because I've heard a bunch of people say

1592
01:35:38,439 --> 01:35:40,960
Speaker 1: it's like a super rich neighborhood, and then I've heard

1593
01:35:41,000 --> 01:35:43,360
Speaker 1: other Chicago folks say that, like, no, it's like an

1594
01:35:43,400 --> 01:35:47,080
Speaker 1: upper middle class neighborhood that used to be richer. And anyway, whatever,

1595
01:35:47,160 --> 01:35:52,080
Speaker 1: it's not like Chicago that and yeah, we'll be talking

1596
01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:56,200
Speaker 1: about it because it's It is an incident that fits

1597
01:35:56,280 --> 01:36:01,240
Speaker 1: within a pattern of behavior that very few people understand

1598
01:36:01,320 --> 01:36:05,280
Speaker 1: nor really prepared to think about. And it's part of

1599
01:36:05,320 --> 01:36:08,960
Speaker 1: why is because if you actually understand what's going on

1600
01:36:09,000 --> 01:36:12,240
Speaker 1: with this shooting, there is no political utility in what happened.

1601
01:36:12,760 --> 01:36:14,200
Speaker 1: Um And I mean that the number of ways there

1602
01:36:14,280 --> 01:36:17,200
Speaker 1: is no if you are someone who is supportive of

1603
01:36:17,840 --> 01:36:21,240
Speaker 1: more stringent gun control, there is not political utility in

1604
01:36:21,240 --> 01:36:23,160
Speaker 1: the shooting for a number of reasons, including the fact

1605
01:36:23,200 --> 01:36:25,120
Speaker 1: that Illinois has strict gun laws, and while a lot

1606
01:36:25,160 --> 01:36:27,120
Speaker 1: of Illinois gun crime has to do with weapons that

1607
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:29,280
Speaker 1: coming from other states, he bought his legally in the

1608
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:32,360
Speaker 1: state of Illinois. Um. And even though like this guy

1609
01:36:32,479 --> 01:36:34,960
Speaker 1: was on police radar, he had made threats before they

1610
01:36:35,000 --> 01:36:38,000
Speaker 1: had confiscated all of his knives, and he's still allowed

1611
01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:40,400
Speaker 1: to buy guns, even though Illinois has a red flag

1612
01:36:40,479 --> 01:36:43,599
Speaker 1: law that very easily if you can confiscate demands knives

1613
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:45,920
Speaker 1: they could have confiscated, has stopped him from buying guns

1614
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:47,960
Speaker 1: or whatever. Plenty of laws on the books to have

1615
01:36:48,080 --> 01:36:51,360
Speaker 1: stopped this. And it's useless in a left right political

1616
01:36:51,439 --> 01:36:54,800
Speaker 1: sense of the word, because there are this guy does

1617
01:36:54,840 --> 01:36:57,639
Speaker 1: not graph onto any of that I have. I think

1618
01:36:57,640 --> 01:37:00,439
Speaker 1: it is there's a value and kind of putting out

1619
01:37:00,439 --> 01:37:02,919
Speaker 1: some of the Trump imagery he's put on only because

1620
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:06,800
Speaker 1: the right has immediately left on calling him a transgender

1621
01:37:06,840 --> 01:37:10,000
Speaker 1: anti for shooter. And I guess in terms of a

1622
01:37:10,040 --> 01:37:12,439
Speaker 1: social media thing, sharing him draped in a Trump flag

1623
01:37:12,520 --> 01:37:15,280
Speaker 1: is the quickest way to like rebut that, but that

1624
01:37:15,360 --> 01:37:18,320
Speaker 1: doesn't mean he's not it's it's not not for actually

1625
01:37:18,520 --> 01:37:26,479
Speaker 1: understanding what's going on. Yeah, there's very this is it's

1626
01:37:26,760 --> 01:37:29,800
Speaker 1: it's in a pattern of shootings that are becoming more

1627
01:37:29,840 --> 01:37:33,240
Speaker 1: common the past few years. We saw it at the

1628
01:37:33,840 --> 01:37:36,839
Speaker 1: UH there's a school shooting last like October or November

1629
01:37:37,400 --> 01:37:41,640
Speaker 1: that the shooter had a very similar profile. Um, and

1630
01:37:41,680 --> 01:37:46,400
Speaker 1: it's a it's a part of this growing online trend

1631
01:37:47,680 --> 01:37:53,520
Speaker 1: using imagery related to mental illness too encourage and justify

1632
01:37:54,840 --> 01:38:00,599
Speaker 1: mass acts of violence in some rebellion from how our

1633
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:04,200
Speaker 1: regular society is structured and how people usually think of reality.

1634
01:38:04,600 --> 01:38:08,000
Speaker 1: So it's it's something that we generally people who spent

1635
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:11,320
Speaker 1: a lot of time researching this, myself included trying to

1636
01:38:11,360 --> 01:38:13,600
Speaker 1: be very careful about how we talk about this, right

1637
01:38:13,640 --> 01:38:16,120
Speaker 1: because we we don't want the wrong things boosted. But

1638
01:38:16,200 --> 01:38:19,599
Speaker 1: also everyone just being in the dark isn't great either, Right,

1639
01:38:19,720 --> 01:38:22,679
Speaker 1: That's that's frustrating. Right, if people are curious, they want

1640
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:26,000
Speaker 1: us start to look stuff up, and it's better that

1641
01:38:26,520 --> 01:38:29,080
Speaker 1: they have someone who knows what they're talking about explaining

1642
01:38:29,120 --> 01:38:31,320
Speaker 1: to them then then just have them being the wild

1643
01:38:31,320 --> 01:38:34,879
Speaker 1: West of the Internet on site image boards or forms

1644
01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:40,040
Speaker 1: learning about these nonsense propaganda styles. There's there's a few

1645
01:38:40,080 --> 01:38:42,760
Speaker 1: things that are unique about this guy. I mean, he

1646
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:45,439
Speaker 1: was not only making the propaganda, but he also did

1647
01:38:45,600 --> 01:38:48,880
Speaker 1: he also did a violet act that is actually more

1648
01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:52,080
Speaker 1: unique than usual. Usually the people who are involved in

1649
01:38:52,160 --> 01:38:54,800
Speaker 1: making this type of propaganda that he was making, he

1650
01:38:54,840 --> 01:38:58,960
Speaker 1: made YouTube videos, music, he he was he was very

1651
01:38:59,000 --> 01:39:01,840
Speaker 1: prolific in what he was putting out content wise into

1652
01:39:01,840 --> 01:39:04,960
Speaker 1: the Internet. And usually the people who put stuff out

1653
01:39:05,000 --> 01:39:08,639
Speaker 1: in this style of propaganda and this style of like

1654
01:39:08,760 --> 01:39:14,479
Speaker 1: of a very very like meme driven violent mental illness

1655
01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:19,479
Speaker 1: fetishization subcultures, they don't generally the people who make the

1656
01:39:19,520 --> 01:39:22,160
Speaker 1: stuff don't go and do the stuff. This is what

1657
01:39:22,240 --> 01:39:26,080
Speaker 1: instance where this this did happen. So that's actually unique

1658
01:39:26,120 --> 01:39:28,080
Speaker 1: for a few reasons. Yeah, I mean, I think one

1659
01:39:28,120 --> 01:39:30,640
Speaker 1: of the things that's interesting about that is that and

1660
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:34,120
Speaker 1: this is something that has not been discussed nearly as

1661
01:39:34,160 --> 01:39:35,519
Speaker 1: much as I think it ought to have. In the

1662
01:39:35,520 --> 01:39:38,000
Speaker 1: wake of the shooting, this guy basically released an a

1663
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:40,080
Speaker 1: r G at the same time as he carried out

1664
01:39:40,080 --> 01:39:42,000
Speaker 1: his shooting, Like we're basically we're going to get to that.

1665
01:39:42,479 --> 01:39:45,040
Speaker 1: I mean because in some ways this is a really

1666
01:39:45,040 --> 01:39:48,280
Speaker 1: good explanation, not explanation. This is really an example of

1667
01:39:48,680 --> 01:39:55,599
Speaker 1: the post manifesto, like post manifesto terrorism UM, where there's

1668
01:39:55,640 --> 01:39:59,880
Speaker 1: not there's not a written manifesto. It's someone's entire all

1669
01:40:00,080 --> 01:40:05,599
Speaker 1: line presence and their entire online documentation is is that

1670
01:40:05,600 --> 01:40:10,200
Speaker 1: that serves as their manifesto. The whole image of them online,

1671
01:40:10,320 --> 01:40:13,920
Speaker 1: everything they've put out, it represents the thing that they

1672
01:40:14,000 --> 01:40:17,320
Speaker 1: want spread. It's people these types of people are are

1673
01:40:17,400 --> 01:40:20,479
Speaker 1: less likely to write, you know, like a ten page

1674
01:40:20,520 --> 01:40:23,839
Speaker 1: thing about how about why they hate X minority. Instead,

1675
01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:28,480
Speaker 1: they're gonna leave piles and piles of clues and puzzle pieces,

1676
01:40:28,720 --> 01:40:33,240
Speaker 1: music videos and content that lead people into what they

1677
01:40:33,280 --> 01:40:36,640
Speaker 1: want to project as their mental state to be. UM.

1678
01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:38,920
Speaker 1: So it's like everything is and everything is part of

1679
01:40:38,960 --> 01:40:42,719
Speaker 1: what they want to put out. Yeah, and I think both.

1680
01:40:42,880 --> 01:40:46,479
Speaker 1: You can see the act itself, the shooting itself as

1681
01:40:46,560 --> 01:40:49,960
Speaker 1: an attempt to spread the art that he was making

1682
01:40:50,000 --> 01:40:52,280
Speaker 1: and to spread this like profile that he had built.

1683
01:40:52,280 --> 01:40:54,959
Speaker 1: There's a reason why that logo that he had for himself,

1684
01:40:55,760 --> 01:40:58,840
Speaker 1: UM was all over everything there's a reason why unique logo,

1685
01:40:59,240 --> 01:41:02,439
Speaker 1: very unique. Ago. He put out some of the videos,

1686
01:41:02,439 --> 01:41:05,360
Speaker 1: one from ten months ago showed the location he's believed

1687
01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:08,000
Speaker 1: to have started shooting from. It looks like, um, so

1688
01:41:08,040 --> 01:41:10,479
Speaker 1: he was planning this for a while, and he I

1689
01:41:10,520 --> 01:41:13,160
Speaker 1: think this was this was meant both as almost as

1690
01:41:13,160 --> 01:41:15,840
Speaker 1: like an advertising campaign for this guy's EP, if you

1691
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:17,920
Speaker 1: want to look at it that way, but in a

1692
01:41:17,960 --> 01:41:21,960
Speaker 1: broader sense, like like like it's it's it's it's more

1693
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:24,439
Speaker 1: circular than that. Right. He wasn't just trying to spread

1694
01:41:24,479 --> 01:41:26,880
Speaker 1: his stuff, but he was trying to spread his stuff

1695
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:29,920
Speaker 1: in this this imagery and branding that he had created

1696
01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:32,400
Speaker 1: for himself and in order to put other people in

1697
01:41:32,439 --> 01:41:34,720
Speaker 1: that same mind state. It was. It was also very

1698
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:38,360
Speaker 1: personal to him. Um, he's I've spent the past few

1699
01:41:38,360 --> 01:41:44,440
Speaker 1: hours watching watching hours of the stuff that he's put out. Um,

1700
01:41:44,479 --> 01:41:48,440
Speaker 1: and I mean he's there's there's videos that he's animated

1701
01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:52,479
Speaker 1: of him doing a suicide by cop. Um, there's there's

1702
01:41:52,640 --> 01:41:55,960
Speaker 1: music videos he's made about doing a school shooting. Um.

1703
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:58,080
Speaker 1: These are these are d as and Pot has been

1704
01:41:58,080 --> 01:42:01,120
Speaker 1: grappling with for a long time and he finally did

1705
01:42:01,160 --> 01:42:04,439
Speaker 1: the thing. I'm I'm unsure currently if he always knew

1706
01:42:04,479 --> 01:42:05,640
Speaker 1: that he was going to do this or if he

1707
01:42:05,640 --> 01:42:08,599
Speaker 1: was actually trying to fight it now that's that's honestly

1708
01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:11,400
Speaker 1: not even worth debating because it's not useful to what's

1709
01:42:11,439 --> 01:42:15,120
Speaker 1: going on because he did it, because because he didn't.

1710
01:42:15,240 --> 01:42:17,240
Speaker 1: But we've had you can see the types of stuff

1711
01:42:17,240 --> 01:42:19,040
Speaker 1: he's been putting out, Like yes, the string that he

1712
01:42:19,080 --> 01:42:23,400
Speaker 1: did the shooting on, he has a long, along zooming

1713
01:42:23,439 --> 01:42:26,400
Speaker 1: clip of that same street in videos that was posted

1714
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:30,200
Speaker 1: like over a year ago. Um, he's been he's been

1715
01:42:30,240 --> 01:42:32,280
Speaker 1: thinking in this way for a long time. This isn't

1716
01:42:32,320 --> 01:42:35,080
Speaker 1: like a fast radicalization. This is someone who has been

1717
01:42:35,120 --> 01:42:40,400
Speaker 1: heavily steeped in very very small niche online some cultures

1718
01:42:40,400 --> 01:42:42,439
Speaker 1: for a long time. Like the guy is twenty two

1719
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:45,800
Speaker 1: years old, he's he's had his Twitter account since two

1720
01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:51,000
Speaker 1: thousand eleven. He's been online so much. Um, it's deeply

1721
01:42:51,040 --> 01:42:57,560
Speaker 1: online person, deeply alienated, uh, socially isolated, uh, deeply like disassociative.

1722
01:42:58,160 --> 01:43:00,439
Speaker 1: And this is this is by the way, can assistant

1723
01:43:00,479 --> 01:43:03,280
Speaker 1: with what his friends have said, consistent with what people

1724
01:43:03,320 --> 01:43:06,080
Speaker 1: who knew him and worked with him and put music

1725
01:43:06,120 --> 01:43:09,639
Speaker 1: and albums together with him have have repeatedly. A number

1726
01:43:09,640 --> 01:43:11,600
Speaker 1: of them at this point come out and said variations

1727
01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:15,559
Speaker 1: of like, yeah, man, he he got like really weird,

1728
01:43:15,960 --> 01:43:17,640
Speaker 1: like it was it not not like and not in

1729
01:43:17,680 --> 01:43:19,479
Speaker 1: the way that like, oh he got super into que

1730
01:43:19,640 --> 01:43:22,639
Speaker 1: or like he became a Nazi, but like he got

1731
01:43:22,680 --> 01:43:25,360
Speaker 1: weird in a way I didn't understand and I stopped

1732
01:43:25,360 --> 01:43:28,280
Speaker 1: associating with he got he got detached from parts of

1733
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:30,720
Speaker 1: of like modern reality in ways that are really hard

1734
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:33,559
Speaker 1: for people to understand. Um, and I think it's it

1735
01:43:33,640 --> 01:43:36,400
Speaker 1: is important to emphasize just that the deeply online nature

1736
01:43:36,400 --> 01:43:38,360
Speaker 1: of this he he had. He made a whole music

1737
01:43:38,439 --> 01:43:41,880
Speaker 1: video titled I Rely on the Internet, um that you

1738
01:43:42,360 --> 01:43:45,040
Speaker 1: can't find anywhere, so that don't even try to love

1739
01:43:45,040 --> 01:43:46,600
Speaker 1: of God. You don't need to. You don't need to.

1740
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:48,559
Speaker 1: But like, but it opens, but it opens by him

1741
01:43:48,600 --> 01:43:52,240
Speaker 1: saying I get mad when other people are more popular

1742
01:43:52,240 --> 01:43:55,720
Speaker 1: than me on the internet. And the mass shooting is

1743
01:43:55,800 --> 01:43:58,200
Speaker 1: in line with this, With this style of thinking, right,

1744
01:43:58,240 --> 01:44:01,719
Speaker 1: he's he is he is trying to reify himself into

1745
01:44:01,720 --> 01:44:04,880
Speaker 1: a into a memetic image to spread around the same

1746
01:44:04,920 --> 01:44:07,280
Speaker 1: way many mass shooters try to do this same thing

1747
01:44:07,640 --> 01:44:11,360
Speaker 1: that he is doing this extremely intentionally Um, he wants

1748
01:44:11,400 --> 01:44:13,799
Speaker 1: to be the thing that represents a very specific idea,

1749
01:44:14,680 --> 01:44:17,320
Speaker 1: and I'm it's again we are always trying to be

1750
01:44:17,320 --> 01:44:18,960
Speaker 1: carey careful, but like how much we get into this

1751
01:44:18,960 --> 01:44:20,880
Speaker 1: because you don't want to boost the wrong thing. But

1752
01:44:21,920 --> 01:44:24,000
Speaker 1: it's no one of the important to talk about because

1753
01:44:24,080 --> 01:44:26,040
Speaker 1: it's costing a lot of people in their lives, and

1754
01:44:26,360 --> 01:44:28,320
Speaker 1: no one really knows how to deal with this problem

1755
01:44:28,400 --> 01:44:31,719
Speaker 1: right now. One of the beautiful things about our current

1756
01:44:32,160 --> 01:44:34,960
Speaker 1: age is that if you are someone like if you

1757
01:44:35,000 --> 01:44:39,760
Speaker 1: are someone who researches terrorism, extremism, violence, particularly in the

1758
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:42,920
Speaker 1: American context, although certainly not exclusively christ Church and the

1759
01:44:42,960 --> 01:44:45,040
Speaker 1: whole Germany, I don't need to go into it. But

1760
01:44:45,080 --> 01:44:48,799
Speaker 1: if you are someone who focuses on this stuff, um,

1761
01:44:48,800 --> 01:44:51,519
Speaker 1: you will repeatedly have the experience of encountering a new

1762
01:44:51,600 --> 01:44:55,880
Speaker 1: subculture online or a new trend, a new like species

1763
01:44:55,960 --> 01:45:00,479
Speaker 1: of meme and find yourself wondering, like when the shooting

1764
01:45:00,560 --> 01:45:03,519
Speaker 1: is going to be? Um. I made a significant chunk

1765
01:45:03,520 --> 01:45:05,559
Speaker 1: of my career because I was paying attention to one

1766
01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:08,919
Speaker 1: particular group of folks online when they did their shooting.

1767
01:45:09,080 --> 01:45:11,719
Speaker 1: And I am not primarily I've not been in the

1768
01:45:11,840 --> 01:45:14,000
Speaker 1: you know, We've talked a little bit about schizo wave,

1769
01:45:14,040 --> 01:45:17,200
Speaker 1: which is kind of broadly speaking, the thing that this

1770
01:45:17,240 --> 01:45:21,440
Speaker 1: guy most embodied. Um that is that is the propaganda

1771
01:45:21,479 --> 01:45:26,519
Speaker 1: style which has a bad name. Yes it's obviously we're

1772
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:29,599
Speaker 1: not endorsing its name. This is the style that people

1773
01:45:29,640 --> 01:45:32,240
Speaker 1: who are involved in this only community use. It's about

1774
01:45:32,280 --> 01:45:38,879
Speaker 1: fetishizing parts, or fetishizing media driven aspects of mental illness

1775
01:45:39,040 --> 01:45:43,439
Speaker 1: to encourage violence. It's about obviously mental illness, yes, the

1776
01:45:43,439 --> 01:45:47,120
Speaker 1: aesthetics and mental illness. Right, People who are who actually

1777
01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:50,479
Speaker 1: you know, deal with mental illnesses are much less likely

1778
01:45:50,680 --> 01:45:53,040
Speaker 1: to commit violent acts. They're actually more likely to be

1779
01:45:53,080 --> 01:45:58,000
Speaker 1: the recipient of of of violent acts not documented. So

1780
01:45:58,120 --> 01:46:00,280
Speaker 1: like this is this is like I think it portant

1781
01:46:00,280 --> 01:46:03,320
Speaker 1: to actually get people to like understand because this is

1782
01:46:03,360 --> 01:46:04,680
Speaker 1: one of the things that if you look at like

1783
01:46:04,720 --> 01:46:07,160
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson for example, like how Alex Jones bind to

1784
01:46:07,160 --> 01:46:08,720
Speaker 1: all these shooters, the thing they pivoted, one of the

1785
01:46:08,720 --> 01:46:11,360
Speaker 1: things they pivoted to is, oh, it's because all these

1786
01:46:11,360 --> 01:46:15,880
Speaker 1: people are on antidepressants. And it's like, no, I'm gonna

1787
01:46:15,920 --> 01:46:18,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk about So there was there was this tweet,

1788
01:46:18,920 --> 01:46:21,360
Speaker 1: but I mean, I hate talking about Marjorie Taylor Greens.

1789
01:46:21,400 --> 01:46:22,800
Speaker 1: I think it's useless to talk about her, and it

1790
01:46:22,880 --> 01:46:26,080
Speaker 1: only gives her inflates the thing that she represents. But

1791
01:46:26,080 --> 01:46:30,879
Speaker 1: but but uh, she had this tweet about a picture

1792
01:46:31,000 --> 01:46:33,440
Speaker 1: of of him that that that that he that he posted,

1793
01:46:34,000 --> 01:46:36,719
Speaker 1: and she's asking is he in jail or a rehab

1794
01:46:36,760 --> 01:46:39,160
Speaker 1: center or a psychiatric center in this photo that's on

1795
01:46:39,200 --> 01:46:43,320
Speaker 1: his bedroom? What drugs are psychiatric drugs or both? Does

1796
01:46:43,360 --> 01:46:47,639
Speaker 1: he use? And the image here is of an image

1797
01:46:47,760 --> 01:46:52,120
Speaker 1: very clearly photoshopped of this person sitting in like of it,

1798
01:46:52,240 --> 01:46:55,120
Speaker 1: sitting in like a mental institution, holding a Bible. And

1799
01:46:55,160 --> 01:46:57,360
Speaker 1: it's part of this thing that is like a fetishizing

1800
01:46:57,400 --> 01:47:00,559
Speaker 1: the aesthetics of mental illness. Right, It's like, look at me,

1801
01:47:00,680 --> 01:47:04,040
Speaker 1: I'm I am so detached from reality, I be I

1802
01:47:04,520 --> 01:47:09,640
Speaker 1: belong inside a mental institution and the aesthetics of Christian fascism,

1803
01:47:09,680 --> 01:47:11,760
Speaker 1: which is also a weird part of it. There's a

1804
01:47:11,760 --> 01:47:15,160
Speaker 1: photo one of the like images he posted in four chan.

1805
01:47:15,560 --> 01:47:17,760
Speaker 1: I think it was fortunately I may be mistaken about

1806
01:47:17,760 --> 01:47:20,360
Speaker 1: the exact location, but it was like it was a

1807
01:47:20,400 --> 01:47:25,360
Speaker 1: Catholic saint with like the sacred heart like in her hands,

1808
01:47:25,720 --> 01:47:29,400
Speaker 1: with the head replaced by like some anime girl. I've i've,

1809
01:47:29,479 --> 01:47:33,920
Speaker 1: I have not seen that yet. But yeah, this image

1810
01:47:34,320 --> 01:47:36,920
Speaker 1: that he made of of inside this this mental hospital,

1811
01:47:37,280 --> 01:47:39,639
Speaker 1: that that is, that is part of the joke to him, right,

1812
01:47:39,920 --> 01:47:43,599
Speaker 1: the joke, Like I don't think he would actually assume

1813
01:47:43,800 --> 01:47:46,160
Speaker 1: that someone would think this is an unphotoshopped image. I

1814
01:47:46,160 --> 01:47:50,679
Speaker 1: think he would he hilarious obvious, like like Margine Taylor

1815
01:47:50,720 --> 01:47:53,080
Speaker 1: Grey is just like just like unable to determine the

1816
01:47:53,080 --> 01:47:55,320
Speaker 1: most basic photoshop that you can see the edge marks

1817
01:47:55,439 --> 01:47:57,840
Speaker 1: very clearly. So but but this, but like this is

1818
01:47:57,880 --> 01:48:00,720
Speaker 1: part of the joke, right, And everything getting into what

1819
01:48:00,800 --> 01:48:04,799
Speaker 1: he actually believes about reality and stuff isn't important because

1820
01:48:05,240 --> 01:48:08,360
Speaker 1: everything about this is has to do with like post

1821
01:48:08,400 --> 01:48:13,720
Speaker 1: to ironic violence and post ironic like comedy, post ironic

1822
01:48:14,000 --> 01:48:17,160
Speaker 1: like ideas of reality. It's the difference between this what

1823
01:48:17,320 --> 01:48:20,280
Speaker 1: is sincere and what is real and what is ironic

1824
01:48:20,320 --> 01:48:22,760
Speaker 1: and what is fake don't matter. They as long as

1825
01:48:22,800 --> 01:48:25,080
Speaker 1: they're happening, that's what's happening. So it's all as real

1826
01:48:25,320 --> 01:48:28,840
Speaker 1: as anything else. So getting into specific ideas about what

1827
01:48:28,840 --> 01:48:32,320
Speaker 1: he personally believes doesn't actually matter because one we don't

1828
01:48:32,320 --> 01:48:34,400
Speaker 1: know if that's genuine at all. He's he's putting everything

1829
01:48:34,400 --> 01:48:37,840
Speaker 1: out intentionally. And two it doesn't matter on the actual

1830
01:48:37,880 --> 01:48:41,400
Speaker 1: material circumstances. What are producing effects inside our world right now,

1831
01:48:41,520 --> 01:48:44,840
Speaker 1: like these types of like acts of violence, but it's

1832
01:48:45,000 --> 01:48:48,519
Speaker 1: it's everything is put out, should be but it'll seem

1833
01:48:48,520 --> 01:48:52,639
Speaker 1: like contradictory, it'll seem confusing. Right. He opened a video

1834
01:48:52,640 --> 01:48:54,479
Speaker 1: of his that he was like doing a live stream

1835
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:56,719
Speaker 1: like like I think, like over like a year ago,

1836
01:48:57,040 --> 01:49:00,200
Speaker 1: and he he calls everyone who's watching his live stream

1837
01:49:00,560 --> 01:49:04,480
Speaker 1: like he calls them communists. He's like, hey, communists, um.

1838
01:49:04,520 --> 01:49:06,720
Speaker 1: And it's not because they're actually communists, not because he

1839
01:49:06,760 --> 01:49:09,880
Speaker 1: likes communism. It's not because he's necessarily fascist either. It's

1840
01:49:09,920 --> 01:49:12,320
Speaker 1: that all these things are so blurred and you use

1841
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:16,800
Speaker 1: them interchangeably to produce this sense of meaninglessness and the

1842
01:49:16,880 --> 01:49:21,120
Speaker 1: reaction to this meaningless world that he's constructed for himself

1843
01:49:21,200 --> 01:49:24,160
Speaker 1: and these types of online subcultures try to construct. The

1844
01:49:24,200 --> 01:49:27,800
Speaker 1: only sensible reaction to this meaningless world is for them

1845
01:49:27,800 --> 01:49:30,120
Speaker 1: to do these types of acts of violence. That is,

1846
01:49:30,280 --> 01:49:32,840
Speaker 1: that is the point. So the actual details what they're

1847
01:49:32,840 --> 01:49:35,840
Speaker 1: saying aren't important, because it's all about constructing this world

1848
01:49:35,880 --> 01:49:40,960
Speaker 1: that is utterly meaningless and self contradictory and confusing and

1849
01:49:41,080 --> 01:49:43,760
Speaker 1: nothing makes sense and the only way to respond to

1850
01:49:43,840 --> 01:49:46,320
Speaker 1: that is to get out of it. And that's part

1851
01:49:46,360 --> 01:49:49,280
Speaker 1: of what they're they're trying to do. And there are

1852
01:49:49,320 --> 01:49:52,800
Speaker 1: I mean, and again part of the frustrating things that

1853
01:49:52,840 --> 01:49:55,600
Speaker 1: there are all of these things that people try to

1854
01:49:55,720 --> 01:49:58,760
Speaker 1: kind of simply affix to this our pieces of it. Yeah,

1855
01:49:58,760 --> 01:50:03,160
Speaker 1: American gun culture, the fetishization of violence as the way

1856
01:50:03,160 --> 01:50:05,800
Speaker 1: to achieve positive ends in our culture is a part

1857
01:50:05,840 --> 01:50:08,559
Speaker 1: of this. It's why, it's part of why the natural

1858
01:50:08,600 --> 01:50:12,240
Speaker 1: response to everything is meaningless and confusing is going a

1859
01:50:12,320 --> 01:50:16,920
Speaker 1: galling spray exactly. Um. And likewise, the fact that politics

1860
01:50:17,040 --> 01:50:18,840
Speaker 1: is where it is where you have like this one

1861
01:50:18,920 --> 01:50:22,560
Speaker 1: party that's the Republican Party that is almost entirely dedicated

1862
01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:26,400
Speaker 1: to like owning the Libs and just purely attacking people

1863
01:50:26,479 --> 01:50:28,880
Speaker 1: rather than trying to do anything because their policies have

1864
01:50:28,960 --> 01:50:32,000
Speaker 1: been unmitigated disasters for the country, and the other side

1865
01:50:32,040 --> 01:50:33,920
Speaker 1: just kind of blindly tells people to vote like that

1866
01:50:34,000 --> 01:50:38,599
Speaker 1: hopelessness that like that, that kind of nihilistic aggression on

1867
01:50:38,640 --> 01:50:41,439
Speaker 1: the right all feeds into this. And you could say

1868
01:50:41,439 --> 01:50:45,000
Speaker 1: that like a great deal of right wing media, particularly

1869
01:50:45,120 --> 01:50:47,719
Speaker 1: right wing ault media, is kind of firms a heavy

1870
01:50:47,720 --> 01:50:51,160
Speaker 1: component of like the milieu that this guy was radicalized in.

1871
01:50:51,640 --> 01:50:54,720
Speaker 1: But it's more like that kind of stuff provided a

1872
01:50:54,800 --> 01:50:56,840
Speaker 1: language for him than it is that that kind of

1873
01:50:56,840 --> 01:50:59,840
Speaker 1: stuff was specifically like his motivating things. The same thing

1874
01:50:59,840 --> 01:51:05,120
Speaker 1: with Trumpism, right, Like he he engaged with Trumpism only

1875
01:51:05,680 --> 01:51:08,840
Speaker 1: in a way that it helps kind of destabilize things.

1876
01:51:08,880 --> 01:51:12,360
Speaker 1: And is this like orbit of chaos, right, That's that's

1877
01:51:12,400 --> 01:51:14,599
Speaker 1: why it that that that's why it's into it. Right,

1878
01:51:14,600 --> 01:51:18,840
Speaker 1: He was deeply into stuff run conspiracy theories, paranormal deep nihilism, um,

1879
01:51:19,080 --> 01:51:22,240
Speaker 1: getting cut off from consensus reality, getting awakened to some

1880
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:25,720
Speaker 1: like greater truth. Everything that he's actually into is all

1881
01:51:25,960 --> 01:51:29,040
Speaker 1: just to serve to serve those types of means. Politics

1882
01:51:29,439 --> 01:51:31,879
Speaker 1: aren't the core part of that, but it's a reaction

1883
01:51:32,040 --> 01:51:34,000
Speaker 1: to politics. And then he's going to use it as

1884
01:51:34,040 --> 01:51:38,960
Speaker 1: just as just another tool. It's because yeah, many of

1885
01:51:38,960 --> 01:51:41,040
Speaker 1: them are racist. Maybe they can share racist memes, but

1886
01:51:41,360 --> 01:51:44,599
Speaker 1: that's not actually the the the center point of of

1887
01:51:44,920 --> 01:51:48,599
Speaker 1: what's going on um. And you know, in some ways

1888
01:51:48,600 --> 01:51:50,120
Speaker 1: to be easier if it would be, because that gives

1889
01:51:50,160 --> 01:51:53,160
Speaker 1: you something actually easy to target otherwise right now, you know,

1890
01:51:53,320 --> 01:51:55,920
Speaker 1: when you're trying to address this whole propaganda style that

1891
01:51:56,000 --> 01:51:58,400
Speaker 1: is encouraging these things to happen, it's a harder thing

1892
01:51:58,400 --> 01:52:00,240
Speaker 1: to climb down on because it's it's an like an

1893
01:52:00,320 --> 01:52:02,800
Speaker 1: endless game of whack a mole trying to find out,

1894
01:52:02,840 --> 01:52:05,519
Speaker 1: you know, who's the big people pushing content like this

1895
01:52:05,640 --> 01:52:08,040
Speaker 1: right now and like these weird niche communities, how can

1896
01:52:08,080 --> 01:52:10,080
Speaker 1: we get them taken down? And they just always pop

1897
01:52:10,120 --> 01:52:12,080
Speaker 1: back up, right It's always it's it's this end this game.

1898
01:52:12,120 --> 01:52:15,640
Speaker 1: So it's hard to target, and that leaves you with

1899
01:52:15,720 --> 01:52:18,360
Speaker 1: the feeling of like hopelessness on how this situation will

1900
01:52:18,400 --> 01:52:20,200
Speaker 1: be solved, which is like also part of the point

1901
01:52:20,240 --> 01:52:22,080
Speaker 1: of why these attacks happen is to is to get

1902
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:25,960
Speaker 1: that reaction. Um, but it sucks, like it's it's it's

1903
01:52:26,120 --> 01:52:28,280
Speaker 1: it's always bad to just have the like the only

1904
01:52:28,280 --> 01:52:30,240
Speaker 1: thing you think about is like, oh wow, I don't

1905
01:52:30,280 --> 01:52:33,360
Speaker 1: see a way to solve this. It's just terrible. But

1906
01:52:33,400 --> 01:52:37,360
Speaker 1: that's part of the intention here, and man, it's it's

1907
01:52:37,360 --> 01:52:40,800
Speaker 1: not good because you know, you this this isn't the

1908
01:52:40,840 --> 01:52:45,080
Speaker 1: first shooting that has happened from this skits awave aesthetic.

1909
01:52:45,160 --> 01:52:48,519
Speaker 1: There there. There has been other ones, but these things

1910
01:52:48,520 --> 01:52:51,920
Speaker 1: are norms are gonna start hearing more and more about this,

1911
01:52:52,720 --> 01:52:57,000
Speaker 1: and that sucks. Um, It's gonna become more of a

1912
01:52:57,280 --> 01:52:58,960
Speaker 1: of a thing that people are going to be aware of.

1913
01:52:59,040 --> 01:53:01,439
Speaker 1: Right as soon as as soon as MPR starts talking

1914
01:53:01,479 --> 01:53:03,960
Speaker 1: about it, you're like, Okay, this is this is fully

1915
01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:06,400
Speaker 1: this is this is fully escaped the box. It's it's

1916
01:53:06,880 --> 01:53:09,800
Speaker 1: it's one of those things when um, because I was

1917
01:53:09,840 --> 01:53:12,639
Speaker 1: just I was saying earlier, like what it's like when

1918
01:53:12,680 --> 01:53:16,479
Speaker 1: you finally when you find yourself staring at it something

1919
01:53:16,520 --> 01:53:18,799
Speaker 1: that is going to blow up in a violent way

1920
01:53:19,080 --> 01:53:21,920
Speaker 1: and just not knowing when you are one of a

1921
01:53:22,000 --> 01:53:24,320
Speaker 1: number of folks who I've known who are kind of

1922
01:53:24,600 --> 01:53:27,320
Speaker 1: particularly dealing with this space. And it's been like two

1923
01:53:27,400 --> 01:53:29,840
Speaker 1: years that folks have been saying like there is there

1924
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:32,519
Speaker 1: will have it like and the thing that is most

1925
01:53:32,640 --> 01:53:36,519
Speaker 1: almost as frightening as like anything else is that. And

1926
01:53:36,560 --> 01:53:40,280
Speaker 1: then fucking Brett Bear is going to be talking about

1927
01:53:40,320 --> 01:53:43,040
Speaker 1: Schizo wave on the news like we're gonna have to

1928
01:53:43,280 --> 01:53:45,240
Speaker 1: We're gonna have to deal with like Joe Rogan trying

1929
01:53:45,280 --> 01:53:48,639
Speaker 1: to parse this ship out while stoned um, while stoned

1930
01:53:48,720 --> 01:53:51,400
Speaker 1: and well, talking about the Cally Yuka and we're talking

1931
01:53:51,439 --> 01:53:54,400
Speaker 1: about the fucking calli Uga, which does lead us into

1932
01:53:54,439 --> 01:53:57,040
Speaker 1: the board Apiacht Club Gas. So are we gonna are

1933
01:53:57,040 --> 01:54:00,479
Speaker 1: we gonna set? So we'renna talk about one thing dealing

1934
01:54:00,479 --> 01:54:02,519
Speaker 1: with skits. We were finished talking about one thing dealing

1935
01:54:02,520 --> 01:54:04,880
Speaker 1: with skits away and then when I enter into other

1936
01:54:04,920 --> 01:54:09,080
Speaker 1: thing that the only accurate way I can describe describe

1937
01:54:09,080 --> 01:54:13,760
Speaker 1: this is that my my dives into this, into this

1938
01:54:13,880 --> 01:54:16,600
Speaker 1: theory are the equivalent of what it feels like to

1939
01:54:16,640 --> 01:54:19,400
Speaker 1: have a psychotic episode. And that's not that's not disparaging

1940
01:54:19,439 --> 01:54:22,120
Speaker 1: at all. It's about the actual thing is your brain

1941
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:25,439
Speaker 1: does when that happens. How you take one meaningless piece

1942
01:54:25,439 --> 01:54:28,200
Speaker 1: of information and project meaning onto it to make it

1943
01:54:28,240 --> 01:54:31,200
Speaker 1: super important. Um, and how that kind of cascades down.

1944
01:54:32,280 --> 01:54:36,920
Speaker 1: Oh boy, So the board the board a fiacht club

1945
01:54:37,840 --> 01:54:39,880
Speaker 1: a k A. Now, I guess the board ape Nazi

1946
01:54:39,920 --> 01:54:43,320
Speaker 1: Club because people online have decided that they're really good

1947
01:54:43,360 --> 01:54:46,839
Speaker 1: at researching Nazis. I guess somebody hopp into the fucking

1948
01:54:46,960 --> 01:54:49,400
Speaker 1: subreddit and tell us that we we needed to be

1949
01:54:50,120 --> 01:54:52,720
Speaker 1: all right, we needed to be dealing with this. Yeah,

1950
01:54:53,080 --> 01:54:55,880
Speaker 1: So I was like, like, randomly, I like visited some

1951
01:54:55,920 --> 01:54:58,640
Speaker 1: of my friends in Chicago who are like normies and

1952
01:54:58,680 --> 01:55:01,760
Speaker 1: like they were telling me about this video. Yeah, it's

1953
01:55:01,840 --> 01:55:03,760
Speaker 1: it is. It is again. It has fully escaped the

1954
01:55:03,800 --> 01:55:06,880
Speaker 1: box now and that's part of the problem. So there

1955
01:55:06,960 --> 01:55:11,280
Speaker 1: is this YouTuber who made a video in partnership with

1956
01:55:11,360 --> 01:55:15,560
Speaker 1: a quote unquote internet artist um about how the Board

1957
01:55:15,600 --> 01:55:21,200
Speaker 1: Apiacht Club friends of the pod are secretly this Nazi

1958
01:55:21,360 --> 01:55:28,080
Speaker 1: op to troll everyone into spreading esoteric Nazism. That's that's

1959
01:55:28,120 --> 01:55:31,600
Speaker 1: the claim. Now, first I'm gonna say that the guy

1960
01:55:31,640 --> 01:55:33,760
Speaker 1: who made this video was in partnership with this internet

1961
01:55:33,840 --> 01:55:37,200
Speaker 1: artist who at the same time launched a rival ape

1962
01:55:37,200 --> 01:55:40,280
Speaker 1: based n f T project, and this video served as

1963
01:55:40,360 --> 01:55:43,160
Speaker 1: an ad for his rival ape n f T project.

1964
01:55:43,440 --> 01:55:46,280
Speaker 1: And to be clear, his Ape n f T project

1965
01:55:46,440 --> 01:55:49,000
Speaker 1: was taking the art that the Board Apiacht Club used

1966
01:55:49,000 --> 01:55:51,840
Speaker 1: for their apes, making no changes to it, and just

1967
01:55:51,920 --> 01:55:54,720
Speaker 1: selling it to people on a different platform, which is

1968
01:55:54,800 --> 01:55:58,120
Speaker 1: like intellectual property theft right, right, Like, I never want

1969
01:55:58,120 --> 01:55:59,760
Speaker 1: to be the guy saying the board apes are leading

1970
01:56:00,000 --> 01:56:03,000
Speaker 1: on the right. I can't believe, like we are not

1971
01:56:03,120 --> 01:56:06,520
Speaker 1: defending Board Ape Yacht Club and I want them to

1972
01:56:06,520 --> 01:56:08,560
Speaker 1: be hit with a brick. But we're talking about this

1973
01:56:08,600 --> 01:56:14,920
Speaker 1: because people are appropriating the term, appropriating the almost like

1974
01:56:14,960 --> 01:56:17,880
Speaker 1: the aesthetics of anti fascist research that he started selling

1975
01:56:17,880 --> 01:56:21,240
Speaker 1: their own products. They are appropriating the aesthetics of anti

1976
01:56:21,560 --> 01:56:26,000
Speaker 1: of scholarship focused on extremism, um, in order to sell

1977
01:56:26,120 --> 01:56:28,200
Speaker 1: n f T s. That's what's happening with this. The

1978
01:56:28,240 --> 01:56:31,240
Speaker 1: board Ape Yacht Club or Nazis video so agains. So

1979
01:56:31,280 --> 01:56:33,560
Speaker 1: all the inporation comes from this from this guy who's

1980
01:56:33,560 --> 01:56:37,360
Speaker 1: a rival arrival n f T internet art. What's his name,

1981
01:56:37,720 --> 01:56:40,840
Speaker 1: hig writer Rips? I think, yeah, writer Rips. Yeah, because

1982
01:56:40,840 --> 01:56:43,760
Speaker 1: he's being sued now by the Board Apes or whatever,

1983
01:56:43,800 --> 01:56:48,920
Speaker 1: and like, good god, I and I mean everything, I

1984
01:56:48,920 --> 01:56:51,280
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna if you watch the video that we're

1985
01:56:51,280 --> 01:56:54,160
Speaker 1: referring to, I'm not disparaging you in case you thought

1986
01:56:54,160 --> 01:56:55,760
Speaker 1: it was convincing, because I mean that was part of

1987
01:56:55,800 --> 01:56:57,720
Speaker 1: the editing, because he was trying to make it seem convincing.

1988
01:56:57,920 --> 01:57:00,280
Speaker 1: But every every single thing is like cherry pick and

1989
01:57:00,440 --> 01:57:04,640
Speaker 1: squished together to resemble meaning. But once you actually open

1990
01:57:04,680 --> 01:57:07,120
Speaker 1: it up, you're like, oh, this is actually nothing. Um.

1991
01:57:07,160 --> 01:57:10,000
Speaker 1: The whole thirty minute section on the cipher is about

1992
01:57:10,080 --> 01:57:13,520
Speaker 1: them doing cipher's badly to get a result out of

1993
01:57:13,560 --> 01:57:15,640
Speaker 1: the clues that they were given. They're looking for specific

1994
01:57:15,640 --> 01:57:18,840
Speaker 1: results to match whatever they want to see um. And

1995
01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:23,760
Speaker 1: everything else is the connections are so tangential um and

1996
01:57:24,040 --> 01:57:27,840
Speaker 1: it's it's like synchronicity gone bad. Right. It's people who

1997
01:57:27,880 --> 01:57:30,960
Speaker 1: take these things and protect meaning onto them, when in

1998
01:57:31,040 --> 01:57:33,720
Speaker 1: reality that's just how everything in the world works, and

1999
01:57:33,760 --> 01:57:36,000
Speaker 1: it's not actually meaningful or important. It's just because you're

2000
01:57:36,000 --> 01:57:38,000
Speaker 1: focusing on it, so you're gonna see it everywhere. It

2001
01:57:38,040 --> 01:57:39,680
Speaker 1: is the same thing we were talking about in our

2002
01:57:39,720 --> 01:57:43,920
Speaker 1: food factories, conspiracy videos, a podcast sorry, and and it's

2003
01:57:44,720 --> 01:57:46,760
Speaker 1: basically one of the things that has made this, I

2004
01:57:46,760 --> 01:57:49,880
Speaker 1: think spread so viral e is that there's a germ

2005
01:57:49,880 --> 01:57:53,320
Speaker 1: of not truth. But there's there's a single convincing point

2006
01:57:53,440 --> 01:57:56,080
Speaker 1: that it all starts from. And the single convincing point

2007
01:57:56,160 --> 01:58:00,480
Speaker 1: is that the board Apiat club logo was from that

2008
01:58:00,520 --> 01:58:04,120
Speaker 1: other Nazi logo. Absolutely, yeah, very is very much patterned

2009
01:58:04,160 --> 01:58:06,400
Speaker 1: off of like the the old s s Death's Head

2010
01:58:06,680 --> 01:58:09,280
Speaker 1: because you shouldn't, yeah, because the number of things going

2011
01:58:09,280 --> 01:58:12,040
Speaker 1: on there, because the Nazis were really good at graphic design,

2012
01:58:12,120 --> 01:58:15,600
Speaker 1: and because also that's not originally a Nazi thing. It

2013
01:58:15,640 --> 01:58:18,440
Speaker 1: has its origins and a Prussian military unit, and there's

2014
01:58:18,480 --> 01:58:20,640
Speaker 1: a reason why the death's head went so far. And

2015
01:58:20,680 --> 01:58:22,800
Speaker 1: it is generally like, for example, when you see a

2016
01:58:22,840 --> 01:58:25,800
Speaker 1: death's head on in the Ukrainian soldier in like Ukraine,

2017
01:58:25,960 --> 01:58:29,240
Speaker 1: that dude's probably got some pretty Nazi fucking beliefs. It's

2018
01:58:29,280 --> 01:58:32,240
Speaker 1: not a it's it's not a again, So the fact

2019
01:58:32,240 --> 01:58:34,120
Speaker 1: that you see something that looks like it may have

2020
01:58:34,160 --> 01:58:37,800
Speaker 1: an inspiration in that um but like is a worthwhile

2021
01:58:37,880 --> 01:58:42,240
Speaker 1: point to start looking at stuff. Absolutely, But once you

2022
01:58:42,280 --> 01:58:44,480
Speaker 1: go at it with a conclusion in mind, then find

2023
01:58:44,520 --> 01:58:46,720
Speaker 1: things just to back up your own conclusion. That's not

2024
01:58:46,720 --> 01:58:49,840
Speaker 1: how you do good research because man, like one of

2025
01:58:49,880 --> 01:58:52,120
Speaker 1: the founders is Jewish, not saying Jewish people can't be

2026
01:58:52,160 --> 01:58:54,720
Speaker 1: fascist or whatever, but like half the people who started

2027
01:58:54,720 --> 01:58:59,480
Speaker 1: it are ethnic minorities. They're really bad writers, and they

2028
01:58:59,480 --> 01:59:02,400
Speaker 1: put together this thing that's complete nonsense, and people are

2029
01:59:02,400 --> 01:59:05,440
Speaker 1: now assuming it's this, yeah, make a conspiracy, and it's not.

2030
01:59:05,520 --> 01:59:07,400
Speaker 1: It's just because it's so And I think part of

2031
01:59:07,400 --> 01:59:09,720
Speaker 1: why people are so so. I think part of why

2032
01:59:09,720 --> 01:59:12,480
Speaker 1: a chunk of the people who hate it want there

2033
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:15,240
Speaker 1: to be a conspiracy is because this thing has made

2034
01:59:15,280 --> 01:59:18,640
Speaker 1: so much money, and it is utterly banal and an idiotic,

2035
01:59:18,680 --> 01:59:20,720
Speaker 1: and it is utterly been all in idiotic and part

2036
01:59:20,760 --> 01:59:22,840
Speaker 1: of the thing A lot of this comes out of

2037
01:59:22,880 --> 01:59:25,920
Speaker 1: and a lot of the strength that kind of this individual,

2038
01:59:26,040 --> 01:59:29,080
Speaker 1: this thing has, this this video has comes out of

2039
01:59:29,080 --> 01:59:32,120
Speaker 1: the fact that years ago a number of folks, some

2040
01:59:32,200 --> 01:59:34,920
Speaker 1: of whom our present company here, started warning people about

2041
01:59:35,000 --> 01:59:37,280
Speaker 1: the ways in which fascists would hide things like fourteen

2042
01:59:37,360 --> 01:59:41,720
Speaker 1: and eight and all of dog whistles, hidden imagory, all

2043
01:59:41,720 --> 01:59:44,320
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff here is and and so people

2044
01:59:44,360 --> 01:59:46,480
Speaker 1: started to get primed to the fact that that happens,

2045
01:59:46,480 --> 01:59:48,920
Speaker 1: that the Nazis hide ship, and that that that you

2046
01:59:48,920 --> 01:59:51,680
Speaker 1: should be on the lookout for it. But one of

2047
01:59:51,760 --> 01:59:53,960
Speaker 1: the things that has been forgotten, I think, in kind

2048
01:59:54,000 --> 01:59:57,080
Speaker 1: of the rush to do that for ship like this,

2049
01:59:57,200 --> 02:00:00,400
Speaker 1: is that it's not just the fact that there hiding

2050
02:00:00,480 --> 02:00:01,960
Speaker 1: like and in the in the specific case of people

2051
02:00:02,000 --> 02:00:04,040
Speaker 1: are putting fourteens and eighty eights and ship. When I

2052
02:00:04,080 --> 02:00:06,120
Speaker 1: was discussing that was nearly always in the context of

2053
02:00:06,160 --> 02:00:08,640
Speaker 1: like members of Patriot Prayer and the Proud Boys and

2054
02:00:08,680 --> 02:00:12,000
Speaker 1: affiliated groups who were beating people in the streets. Right,

2055
02:00:12,160 --> 02:00:14,360
Speaker 1: So you're not you don't just have the imagery you

2056
02:00:14,440 --> 02:00:16,880
Speaker 1: have someone going out and doing things that like they

2057
02:00:16,880 --> 02:00:18,760
Speaker 1: are claiming I have nothing to do with fashions, but

2058
02:00:18,840 --> 02:00:22,720
Speaker 1: like no, you can see like you haven't and there. Yeah,

2059
02:00:22,800 --> 02:00:26,120
Speaker 1: if you have an ape that's numbered one eight, which

2060
02:00:26,120 --> 02:00:29,720
Speaker 1: is a video, it's because there's like ten thous these

2061
02:00:29,720 --> 02:00:33,480
Speaker 1: apes and they're all numbered in numerical order. Yeah, it's

2062
02:00:33,520 --> 02:00:35,800
Speaker 1: like the fact that in a group of a set

2063
02:00:35,800 --> 02:00:38,600
Speaker 1: of ten thousand apes, one of them is a number

2064
02:00:38,600 --> 02:00:42,560
Speaker 1: of four eight is not Nazi dog whistling even anymore

2065
02:00:42,600 --> 02:00:44,560
Speaker 1: than it would be Satanic dog whistling that there's gonna

2066
02:00:44,560 --> 02:00:46,280
Speaker 1: be a six six six in there. You know. It's

2067
02:00:46,640 --> 02:00:49,440
Speaker 1: just like there's one that's six nine six nine, just

2068
02:00:49,560 --> 02:00:53,760
Speaker 1: like there's one that's two three four seven. Whatever. Yeah,

2069
02:00:53,760 --> 02:00:55,440
Speaker 1: it's it's like that thing people used to do were

2070
02:00:55,480 --> 02:00:58,320
Speaker 1: like I don't know if people still do this, but

2071
02:00:58,360 --> 02:01:00,000
Speaker 1: like they were when I was like kid. People would

2072
02:01:00,080 --> 02:01:02,120
Speaker 1: like you get someone who'd like pull out a grid

2073
02:01:02,200 --> 02:01:04,960
Speaker 1: of a city and they start drawing pentagrams on it. Yeah, exactly,

2074
02:01:05,000 --> 02:01:07,040
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, yeah, there's a bunch of random

2075
02:01:07,120 --> 02:01:12,120
Speaker 1: lines if you can. But the other thing that's that's

2076
02:01:12,160 --> 02:01:13,880
Speaker 1: a really problem. That's a big problem about this. It's

2077
02:01:13,880 --> 02:01:17,120
Speaker 1: not only it's passing off bad extremism research to sell

2078
02:01:17,240 --> 02:01:18,840
Speaker 1: their own n f T product, which is bad and

2079
02:01:18,960 --> 02:01:23,560
Speaker 1: of itself. It's also saying the stuff that doesn't need

2080
02:01:23,600 --> 02:01:26,160
Speaker 1: to be said out loudly to a huge audience, all

2081
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:30,120
Speaker 1: while using the fast wave image style, and that sucks

2082
02:01:30,400 --> 02:01:33,520
Speaker 1: because it's talking about things like traditionalism. It's talking about

2083
02:01:33,680 --> 02:01:37,000
Speaker 1: types of esoteric Nazism that usually we don't want to

2084
02:01:37,040 --> 02:01:39,520
Speaker 1: put a giant megaphone on because when people get really

2085
02:01:39,520 --> 02:01:42,040
Speaker 1: into this, you get stuff like the shooting that happened

2086
02:01:42,360 --> 02:01:44,960
Speaker 1: a few days ago. That's that's Those are the same

2087
02:01:45,040 --> 02:01:47,640
Speaker 1: Internet communities that this stuff is really fostered in, So

2088
02:01:47,680 --> 02:01:50,000
Speaker 1: we don't like to amplify it because the more people

2089
02:01:50,000 --> 02:01:52,880
Speaker 1: who are in these communities, the more their brains slowly

2090
02:01:52,880 --> 02:01:55,800
Speaker 1: get chipped away at by these people making this making

2091
02:01:55,840 --> 02:01:59,480
Speaker 1: these types of like hypnotic propaganda. So when we have

2092
02:01:59,720 --> 02:02:02,560
Speaker 1: a tuber that has a video with millions of views

2093
02:02:02,800 --> 02:02:06,640
Speaker 1: talking about the Caluga, talking about Julius A. Vola talking

2094
02:02:06,760 --> 02:02:10,440
Speaker 1: about a whole bunch of stuff around like extremely niche

2095
02:02:10,480 --> 02:02:13,640
Speaker 1: occult Nazism, that's not great, especially when they're using the

2096
02:02:13,640 --> 02:02:16,320
Speaker 1: fastave style. Of video editing to make it seem really

2097
02:02:16,320 --> 02:02:19,560
Speaker 1: cool and scary, and when they're doing it ultimately to

2098
02:02:19,720 --> 02:02:22,720
Speaker 1: make money in an n f T scheme, right, It's

2099
02:02:22,760 --> 02:02:24,920
Speaker 1: it's it's more than just this is not just somebody

2100
02:02:24,960 --> 02:02:29,120
Speaker 1: did research that was like bad um. This is somebody

2101
02:02:29,160 --> 02:02:34,040
Speaker 1: crafted a viral thing using the aesthetics of research um

2102
02:02:34,120 --> 02:02:38,560
Speaker 1: and dropping some really dangerous shit into the consciousness in

2103
02:02:38,560 --> 02:02:41,800
Speaker 1: an irresponsible way to sell the same ape drawings they

2104
02:02:41,800 --> 02:02:46,440
Speaker 1: were attacking. Extremely frustrating because even the whole cipher section

2105
02:02:46,480 --> 02:02:49,440
Speaker 1: of the video I'll still reel against because it's about

2106
02:02:49,480 --> 02:02:54,040
Speaker 1: people using a bad jillion cipher methodologies to get specific

2107
02:02:54,040 --> 02:02:56,080
Speaker 1: results out of it that they want, and all the

2108
02:02:56,120 --> 02:02:58,840
Speaker 1: results they get out of it also are like not

2109
02:02:59,160 --> 02:03:01,760
Speaker 1: problematic and kind of explainable, Like all of them refer

2110
02:03:01,800 --> 02:03:04,480
Speaker 1: to something about monkeys anyways, even if they are true,

2111
02:03:04,880 --> 02:03:07,280
Speaker 1: it's not. It's it doesn't necessarily need to be referencing

2112
02:03:07,320 --> 02:03:10,000
Speaker 1: this obscure thing in traditionalism. It's like, oh no, that's

2113
02:03:10,000 --> 02:03:14,480
Speaker 1: because it's the name of a fucking monkey. And I

2114
02:03:14,520 --> 02:03:16,560
Speaker 1: don't again, I don't. I don't have any actual opinion

2115
02:03:16,640 --> 02:03:20,320
Speaker 1: on whether the Bourne Apiat Club has someone working for

2116
02:03:20,400 --> 02:03:23,480
Speaker 1: it that is hiding in secret references because honestly, I

2117
02:03:23,520 --> 02:03:26,880
Speaker 1: don't care, because all because what it's viewed publicly as

2118
02:03:27,160 --> 02:03:29,920
Speaker 1: is a stupid n f T thing. I mean, it's not.

2119
02:03:30,000 --> 02:03:32,280
Speaker 1: It's not viewed publicly with people who use it as

2120
02:03:32,320 --> 02:03:35,320
Speaker 1: a Secretnacy conspiracy because if it is, what's the impact,

2121
02:03:35,400 --> 02:03:37,880
Speaker 1: What's what's the impact that it's had? Like, how how

2122
02:03:37,880 --> 02:03:40,200
Speaker 1: would it matter if it's a secret Nazi conspiracy theory?

2123
02:03:40,240 --> 02:03:43,839
Speaker 1: What's it? What's it doing? It's it's selling bad pictures

2124
02:03:43,840 --> 02:03:47,240
Speaker 1: of monkeys. When when we talk about the first wave

2125
02:03:47,280 --> 02:03:49,040
Speaker 1: of this and like they need to explain, you know,

2126
02:03:49,080 --> 02:03:51,160
Speaker 1: the symbols that people were hiding in these like right

2127
02:03:51,160 --> 02:03:53,360
Speaker 1: wing street movements of a bunch of whom wound up

2128
02:03:53,400 --> 02:03:56,240
Speaker 1: feeding into Jam six, It's easy to say, well, what

2129
02:03:56,360 --> 02:03:58,440
Speaker 1: the harm was? They were going out, they were beating people,

2130
02:03:58,480 --> 02:04:01,320
Speaker 1: they were planning terrorists a tax, right like that. Yeah,

2131
02:04:01,920 --> 02:04:05,040
Speaker 1: it's doing terrorists to I have I again, I fucking

2132
02:04:05,080 --> 02:04:07,560
Speaker 1: hate these Board eight motherfucker's. I think this is the

2133
02:04:07,720 --> 02:04:11,920
Speaker 1: stupidest fucking I don't know trend I've seen in my

2134
02:04:12,040 --> 02:04:16,320
Speaker 1: entire goddamn life. I cannot point to anything even vaguely Nazi.

2135
02:04:16,400 --> 02:04:20,360
Speaker 1: They have supported or done like and among other things.

2136
02:04:20,480 --> 02:04:22,720
Speaker 1: If you want to know if something is a dangerous

2137
02:04:22,800 --> 02:04:27,240
Speaker 1: conspiracy or a stupid grift, one question you should ask

2138
02:04:27,280 --> 02:04:29,200
Speaker 1: yourself and this isn't always relevant, but one question you

2139
02:04:29,240 --> 02:04:32,800
Speaker 1: should ask yourself is is Jimmy Fallon involved? Because if

2140
02:04:32,880 --> 02:04:36,120
Speaker 1: Jimmy Fallon is involved, it's probably just a dumb grift.

2141
02:04:36,480 --> 02:04:39,800
Speaker 1: Because I mean, the whole, the whole, the watching this

2142
02:04:39,840 --> 02:04:42,640
Speaker 1: guy break down how you get secret messages out of

2143
02:04:42,680 --> 02:04:45,920
Speaker 1: these ciphers is it's it's the same. It's the same

2144
02:04:45,960 --> 02:04:48,640
Speaker 1: thing as like to and on ship. It's people wanting

2145
02:04:48,680 --> 02:04:51,280
Speaker 1: to get an answer out of numbers and things and

2146
02:04:51,320 --> 02:04:53,600
Speaker 1: then pushing that answer as truth even if it's like

2147
02:04:54,280 --> 02:04:58,440
Speaker 1: not not based in any form of reality. Yeah, it's

2148
02:04:58,520 --> 02:05:00,880
Speaker 1: it's so it's it's really frustrating to watch people basically

2149
02:05:01,040 --> 02:05:05,400
Speaker 1: start using Q and ON style research tactics to justify

2150
02:05:05,480 --> 02:05:08,200
Speaker 1: their hatred of an n f T project, which is like, no,

2151
02:05:08,560 --> 02:05:10,200
Speaker 1: you can just dislike it from being an n f

2152
02:05:10,240 --> 02:05:13,000
Speaker 1: T thing. You don't need to rapid in a in

2153
02:05:13,040 --> 02:05:17,280
Speaker 1: this package that is just really bad extremism research. Part

2154
02:05:17,280 --> 02:05:19,880
Speaker 1: of one of the things that scares me about this

2155
02:05:19,960 --> 02:05:22,400
Speaker 1: attack and about like what's going to happen kind of

2156
02:05:22,440 --> 02:05:25,760
Speaker 1: in the media after it is that. Um, I think

2157
02:05:25,840 --> 02:05:28,600
Speaker 1: kind of inevitably these aesthetics are just going to get

2158
02:05:28,600 --> 02:05:31,200
Speaker 1: co opted on a wider and wider basis. That's what's

2159
02:05:31,240 --> 02:05:34,560
Speaker 1: happening on TikTok right now, is that these these types

2160
02:05:34,600 --> 02:05:37,880
Speaker 1: of fast, waven, schizweve aesthetics are just becoming a core

2161
02:05:38,000 --> 02:05:42,400
Speaker 1: part of the zoomer online aesthetic. And that sucks. The

2162
02:05:42,400 --> 02:05:44,560
Speaker 1: The other point I wanted to mention about the Highland

2163
02:05:44,560 --> 02:05:46,800
Speaker 1: Park thing is like this, this guy that did this

2164
02:05:47,000 --> 02:05:52,240
Speaker 1: is such a perfect profile of this type of de

2165
02:05:52,440 --> 02:05:58,720
Speaker 1: attached like gen Z like almost I like like post

2166
02:05:58,760 --> 02:06:02,720
Speaker 1: politics terrorism, um that Like he is such a perfect

2167
02:06:02,760 --> 02:06:05,640
Speaker 1: example of someone who has been online since he was

2168
02:06:05,680 --> 02:06:08,880
Speaker 1: a very very little kid trying to make content online. Right,

2169
02:06:08,920 --> 02:06:11,000
Speaker 1: everyone in gen Z needs to be performing all of

2170
02:06:11,040 --> 02:06:13,200
Speaker 1: the time, right, Your whole life is a performance for

2171
02:06:13,240 --> 02:06:15,640
Speaker 1: the internet. Um. He was doing that same thing. He's

2172
02:06:15,640 --> 02:06:19,080
Speaker 1: been making them, making music and videos and ships since

2173
02:06:19,080 --> 02:06:23,200
Speaker 1: he was he was like younger than me. Like he's

2174
02:06:23,200 --> 02:06:26,120
Speaker 1: been doing this for a long long time. Um. And

2175
02:06:26,400 --> 02:06:29,840
Speaker 1: the types of like you know, like nested communities that

2176
02:06:29,880 --> 02:06:33,080
Speaker 1: you get like that you like fall into. It's such

2177
02:06:33,560 --> 02:06:37,000
Speaker 1: it's such like a clear example of the very types

2178
02:06:37,040 --> 02:06:39,240
Speaker 1: of things that you know, me and others have been

2179
02:06:39,280 --> 02:06:43,080
Speaker 1: talking about and warning about for a while. Um. And

2180
02:06:43,120 --> 02:06:46,960
Speaker 1: it's the whole like muddled nous of reality that we

2181
02:06:47,000 --> 02:06:49,600
Speaker 1: even get with this like board a Nazi clip video. Right,

2182
02:06:49,680 --> 02:06:52,120
Speaker 1: They're all part of this same problem with the Internet,

2183
02:06:52,200 --> 02:06:55,000
Speaker 1: Like our brains weren't designed for this much information coming

2184
02:06:55,040 --> 02:06:57,160
Speaker 1: at us at the same time, we cannot sort it

2185
02:06:57,200 --> 02:07:02,480
Speaker 1: all out. Um. And it's not ideal. Um, I was,

2186
02:07:02,680 --> 02:07:05,600
Speaker 1: it's not It's not great. I would rather it not

2187
02:07:05,720 --> 02:07:08,200
Speaker 1: be like this. I don't know how to like comment

2188
02:07:08,280 --> 02:07:10,720
Speaker 1: people with a solution to this, because this is an

2189
02:07:10,880 --> 02:07:13,960
Speaker 1: unsolved problem. It's like, come up with a solution for

2190
02:07:15,200 --> 02:07:20,640
Speaker 1: the fucking um the fact that emissions like are not

2191
02:07:20,800 --> 02:07:22,880
Speaker 1: going to be reduced, you know, because the world, because

2192
02:07:22,920 --> 02:07:27,400
Speaker 1: the world does suck. But the very be very cognizant

2193
02:07:27,600 --> 02:07:32,760
Speaker 1: of video propaganda styles and anyone that uses flashing like

2194
02:07:33,120 --> 02:07:37,920
Speaker 1: classic or catholic um like imagery. Be very very careful,

2195
02:07:37,920 --> 02:07:40,800
Speaker 1: be very careful of people who fetishize these tetics of

2196
02:07:41,120 --> 02:07:45,280
Speaker 1: mental illness. Be very careful about about people that that

2197
02:07:45,720 --> 02:07:49,480
Speaker 1: you wrap these aesthetics of of mental mental illness and

2198
02:07:49,520 --> 02:07:52,480
Speaker 1: like a very violent package because like that that's what

2199
02:07:52,520 --> 02:07:55,240
Speaker 1: we get with with with the shooter. He was like

2200
02:07:55,680 --> 02:07:58,400
Speaker 1: doing doing videos about about, you know, these types of

2201
02:07:58,640 --> 02:08:01,200
Speaker 1: mental illness that end with him just like a picture

2202
02:08:01,200 --> 02:08:03,959
Speaker 1: of like a drawing of him holding a gun. Um.

2203
02:08:03,960 --> 02:08:05,720
Speaker 1: You know, way before he bought a gun, he was

2204
02:08:05,920 --> 02:08:09,600
Speaker 1: making art about about this. UM. I think the one

2205
02:08:09,640 --> 02:08:12,400
Speaker 1: that's stuck out to me most was him repeatedly referring

2206
02:08:12,440 --> 02:08:16,920
Speaker 1: to himself as a sleepwalker, UM, which which I don't know,

2207
02:08:16,960 --> 02:08:19,840
Speaker 1: like obviously that is very much in line with the

2208
02:08:20,320 --> 02:08:23,640
Speaker 1: Skitzawave aesthetic stuff that like you have been talking about.

2209
02:08:24,000 --> 02:08:26,360
Speaker 1: It also kind of makes me think, I mean it.

2210
02:08:26,560 --> 02:08:30,560
Speaker 1: It brought me to thinking about Barbara Tuckman, who is

2211
02:08:30,720 --> 02:08:32,800
Speaker 1: a historian who wrote a book called The Guns of

2212
02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:36,040
Speaker 1: August that's a history of World War One. UM that

2213
02:08:36,040 --> 02:08:39,120
Speaker 1: that describes kind of the machinery that got set up

2214
02:08:39,120 --> 02:08:46,040
Speaker 1: and marched everybody into that situation exploding like sleep sleepwalkers, right. Um,

2215
02:08:46,080 --> 02:08:51,080
Speaker 1: Like this system has been set up and the people

2216
02:08:51,120 --> 02:08:56,080
Speaker 1: are kind of so unwilling to see where it's leading that, Uh,

2217
02:08:56,240 --> 02:08:59,440
Speaker 1: everything is just kind of marching with a with a

2218
02:08:59,480 --> 02:09:01,760
Speaker 1: sense of an inevitability towards a worse and a worse

2219
02:09:01,880 --> 02:09:05,040
Speaker 1: end point. And that's that's what scares me most about this.

2220
02:09:05,600 --> 02:09:08,560
Speaker 1: I've I've listened to many of his horrible songs and

2221
02:09:08,560 --> 02:09:11,600
Speaker 1: there's nerric and there's lyrics very similar to that idea.

2222
02:09:11,680 --> 02:09:16,800
Speaker 1: UM about that kind of inevitable, like faked driven nature

2223
02:09:17,000 --> 02:09:21,840
Speaker 1: of our current situation and how reality has become so

2224
02:09:21,920 --> 02:09:25,240
Speaker 1: muddled with the internet. Um, and like we there's been

2225
02:09:25,600 --> 02:09:30,520
Speaker 1: uh an intentional, top down effort to destroy any nature

2226
02:09:30,640 --> 02:09:34,440
Speaker 1: of consensus reality and make everything up for debate of

2227
02:09:34,960 --> 02:09:37,880
Speaker 1: there's there is, there is Facts no longer are a thing,

2228
02:09:38,040 --> 02:09:41,240
Speaker 1: like they just don't exist. And this is the world

2229
02:09:41,280 --> 02:09:44,160
Speaker 1: that results from that happening. When there's people in power

2230
02:09:44,480 --> 02:09:46,280
Speaker 1: who put are pushing for this, like you know, like

2231
02:09:46,520 --> 02:09:49,760
Speaker 1: Steve Bannon is among you know, one of many people

2232
02:09:49,760 --> 02:09:52,880
Speaker 1: who are pushing for this type of world. Um, this

2233
02:09:52,920 --> 02:09:54,480
Speaker 1: is the result that we get, and this is the

2234
02:09:54,800 --> 02:09:56,280
Speaker 1: that they kind of want us to get. It's it's

2235
02:09:56,320 --> 02:09:59,200
Speaker 1: it's yeah, I mean because if everything is true and

2236
02:09:59,240 --> 02:10:01,880
Speaker 1: that's fine fun mentally, like what they're going for is

2237
02:10:01,920 --> 02:10:05,640
Speaker 1: this idea that like everything is true and nothing is everything? Yeah,

2238
02:10:05,760 --> 02:10:07,920
Speaker 1: and if every like and if you hit that state,

2239
02:10:08,600 --> 02:10:11,800
Speaker 1: you can do anything right, like to to steal a quote.

2240
02:10:11,800 --> 02:10:15,200
Speaker 1: Who was that? Was that fucking Crowley? Um? The but

2241
02:10:15,200 --> 02:10:19,640
Speaker 1: but like that's very much nothing is true. Everything is permitted. Yeah,

2242
02:10:19,640 --> 02:10:26,560
Speaker 1: I mean that goes all the way back to the assassins. Yes, sure, sure, sure,

2243
02:10:27,440 --> 02:10:29,480
Speaker 1: um but no, but it is like that is that

2244
02:10:29,640 --> 02:10:32,480
Speaker 1: is the thing, right if you mean even the even

2245
02:10:32,520 --> 02:10:39,120
Speaker 1: the shooter guy had numerous Discordian references in in his ship. Yeah. Yeah,

2246
02:10:39,120 --> 02:10:41,480
Speaker 1: it's all about the same stuff. It's all it's all

2247
02:10:41,520 --> 02:10:44,840
Speaker 1: dealing with these same problems. And you're right, obviously, if

2248
02:10:44,880 --> 02:10:47,320
Speaker 1: if you know, if you deal with dissociation as I

2249
02:10:47,440 --> 02:10:49,800
Speaker 1: sometimes do, if you you know like parts about the

2250
02:10:49,800 --> 02:10:51,960
Speaker 1: Discordian aesthetics and like like the kind of ideas they

2251
02:10:51,960 --> 02:10:54,880
Speaker 1: play with, that does not make you an inherently dangerous person.

2252
02:10:55,000 --> 02:10:59,760
Speaker 1: That's that's not the problem here, um the right, Like

2253
02:10:59,800 --> 02:11:02,080
Speaker 1: you get like, I'm you know in some ways, but

2254
02:11:02,280 --> 02:11:04,040
Speaker 1: I I think about a lot of a lot of

2255
02:11:04,040 --> 02:11:05,880
Speaker 1: these same topics because I look at all of this

2256
02:11:07,200 --> 02:11:09,440
Speaker 1: I'm I look at all of this research all the time.

2257
02:11:09,680 --> 02:11:11,840
Speaker 1: So it is my brains in a similar is isn't

2258
02:11:11,840 --> 02:11:14,840
Speaker 1: a isn't a similar place? That's that's that doesn't make

2259
02:11:14,840 --> 02:11:18,000
Speaker 1: you a bad person. That doesn't make you dangerous. Um,

2260
02:11:18,080 --> 02:11:20,760
Speaker 1: but I think it's important to be cognizant of the

2261
02:11:20,800 --> 02:11:24,320
Speaker 1: type of propaganda that people are pushing, the types of propaganda,

2262
02:11:24,320 --> 02:11:28,040
Speaker 1: trends and styles that are producing material effects in the world,

2263
02:11:28,560 --> 02:11:34,440
Speaker 1: like these types of shootings. Yeah, and so I don't

2264
02:11:34,480 --> 02:11:38,680
Speaker 1: know what else to say, honestly, because it's bad. Yeah,

2265
02:11:38,720 --> 02:11:43,520
Speaker 1: it's it's a problem. I would say, if anyone ever

2266
02:11:43,600 --> 02:11:46,000
Speaker 1: tells you about something they saw on the internet, hit

2267
02:11:46,040 --> 02:11:48,920
Speaker 1: them and runaway screaming. That's a good that's a good

2268
02:11:48,960 --> 02:11:52,600
Speaker 1: way to move forward. Um, and please don't don't start

2269
02:11:52,640 --> 02:11:55,000
Speaker 1: the other things like you know, we're gonna, we're gonna

2270
02:11:55,200 --> 02:11:57,600
Speaker 1: the right is going to have two possible reactions to

2271
02:11:57,640 --> 02:12:00,800
Speaker 1: stuff like this, Right, They're gonna one do a satanic panic.

2272
02:12:00,800 --> 02:12:02,240
Speaker 1: They be like, oh, look at these people doing a

2273
02:12:02,320 --> 02:12:05,720
Speaker 1: cult shit. Um, let's do another. Let's do another satanic panic,

2274
02:12:05,800 --> 02:12:08,880
Speaker 1: which would suck. There, there's there's there's there's that option

2275
02:12:08,920 --> 02:12:11,080
Speaker 1: obviously that would tie you into like transphobia, that would

2276
02:12:11,080 --> 02:12:13,440
Speaker 1: tie into a whole bunch of whole much of bullshit. Um.

2277
02:12:13,600 --> 02:12:16,720
Speaker 1: The other option is that people start, you know, using

2278
02:12:16,720 --> 02:12:19,080
Speaker 1: mentally ill people as a scapegoat that start of saying

2279
02:12:19,080 --> 02:12:21,760
Speaker 1: we should lock up people who deal with mental illness

2280
02:12:22,280 --> 02:12:25,680
Speaker 1: is also not that would suck, wouldn't solve the problem either,

2281
02:12:26,080 --> 02:12:28,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't do it. Yeah, Like that's the thing I've I've

2282
02:12:28,120 --> 02:12:31,720
Speaker 1: actually been seeing this in the last really like probably

2283
02:12:31,800 --> 02:12:34,200
Speaker 1: three months, is there's been a bunch of people who

2284
02:12:34,240 --> 02:12:36,440
Speaker 1: have been calling for like bringing like bringing sort of

2285
02:12:36,440 --> 02:12:39,840
Speaker 1: old school asylums back. That's that's exactly what the people,

2286
02:12:40,080 --> 02:12:42,400
Speaker 1: the people who make this propaganda, that's exactly what they want.

2287
02:12:42,520 --> 02:12:45,240
Speaker 1: That's that they want you to have that reaction that

2288
02:12:45,280 --> 02:12:47,840
Speaker 1: would make things so much worse. If you put people

2289
02:12:47,840 --> 02:12:49,640
Speaker 1: like this in an asylum for ten days then they

2290
02:12:49,640 --> 02:12:52,200
Speaker 1: get out there, they are so much more likely to

2291
02:12:52,360 --> 02:12:54,760
Speaker 1: to do these types of things. Not because they're actually

2292
02:12:54,800 --> 02:12:56,400
Speaker 1: like not because like not nothing to do with their

2293
02:12:56,400 --> 02:12:58,840
Speaker 1: actual whatever like mental things they have going on. It's

2294
02:12:58,840 --> 02:13:01,720
Speaker 1: because of the set. The aesthetic styling is right. They

2295
02:13:01,720 --> 02:13:04,120
Speaker 1: want to be a character in a story. If they

2296
02:13:04,160 --> 02:13:05,920
Speaker 1: feel like their life is going in a direction that

2297
02:13:05,920 --> 02:13:07,520
Speaker 1: they are a character in a story, they're getting put

2298
02:13:07,520 --> 02:13:11,640
Speaker 1: in these situations that they've memed about. Right, this guy's pictures,

2299
02:13:11,680 --> 02:13:15,400
Speaker 1: he's photostrapher of himself inside mental institutions, right, It's it's

2300
02:13:15,400 --> 02:13:17,760
Speaker 1: a character in a story. If you do that, you're

2301
02:13:17,800 --> 02:13:20,320
Speaker 1: playing right into their hands. It is that is not

2302
02:13:20,400 --> 02:13:22,400
Speaker 1: what that that should not be the focused of what

2303
02:13:22,480 --> 02:13:26,120
Speaker 1: we are doing. Um and like carsonal problems are not

2304
02:13:26,160 --> 02:13:29,480
Speaker 1: the solution to these types of things, especially for people

2305
02:13:29,480 --> 02:13:32,800
Speaker 1: who are who are like just making music online, Like

2306
02:13:32,840 --> 02:13:36,080
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do? Fucking arrest people for the

2307
02:13:36,200 --> 02:13:40,320
Speaker 1: like for the music they make like, that is not

2308
02:13:40,360 --> 02:13:44,080
Speaker 1: the solution. Don't let people turn this into targeting people

2309
02:13:44,080 --> 02:13:47,960
Speaker 1: who have actual like mental like mental things that they

2310
02:13:48,000 --> 02:13:51,680
Speaker 1: deal with. Don't make them the scapegoat of this. Um

2311
02:13:51,720 --> 02:13:53,960
Speaker 1: and be very careful if anyone tries to do any

2312
02:13:54,040 --> 02:13:57,720
Speaker 1: kind of satanic panic nonsense about secret occultists who are

2313
02:13:57,720 --> 02:14:01,520
Speaker 1: trying to alter your kids reality or whatever, or very

2314
02:14:01,520 --> 02:14:04,240
Speaker 1: careful because anyone who uses that type of framing for

2315
02:14:04,280 --> 02:14:07,000
Speaker 1: this problem is not genuine. They do not actually care.

2316
02:14:07,200 --> 02:14:11,280
Speaker 1: They are pushing something that they want. Yeah, I mean.

2317
02:14:11,320 --> 02:14:14,800
Speaker 1: And I think one of the reasons why the idea

2318
02:14:14,840 --> 02:14:16,800
Speaker 1: that these people are kind of seeing themselves as part

2319
02:14:16,840 --> 02:14:18,720
Speaker 1: of a narrative is important is because it represents a

2320
02:14:18,760 --> 02:14:22,760
Speaker 1: discontinuity with the way mass shootings have worked for most

2321
02:14:22,800 --> 02:14:24,600
Speaker 1: of the time that people listening to this has been

2322
02:14:24,600 --> 02:14:27,640
Speaker 1: alive in the United States prior to a couple of

2323
02:14:27,680 --> 02:14:30,200
Speaker 1: years ago. Really twenty nineteen was the big break year

2324
02:14:30,240 --> 02:14:33,160
Speaker 1: for this. The vast majority of mass shooters were also

2325
02:14:33,200 --> 02:14:36,040
Speaker 1: committing suicide. That was part of the goal. That was

2326
02:14:36,120 --> 02:14:39,200
Speaker 1: what happened. UM. And if you are an individual with

2327
02:14:39,240 --> 02:14:42,120
Speaker 1: a gun who has just committed a series of murders,

2328
02:14:42,120 --> 02:14:44,280
Speaker 1: it is very easy to make sure you die in

2329
02:14:44,280 --> 02:14:47,240
Speaker 1: that attack. It's extremely easy. Um. That is why so

2330
02:14:47,280 --> 02:14:50,200
Speaker 1: many of them did it. That has that has stopped

2331
02:14:50,240 --> 02:14:52,240
Speaker 1: being given in the way that it used to be.

2332
02:14:52,360 --> 02:14:54,520
Speaker 1: The change I think was christ Church was the main

2333
02:14:54,560 --> 02:14:57,040
Speaker 1: inflection point for this. But a lot of these guys

2334
02:14:57,120 --> 02:15:01,840
Speaker 1: go down alive. The Buffalo shooter taken alive, the last

2335
02:15:01,880 --> 02:15:04,560
Speaker 1: the last skitz Awave shooter from a few months ago,

2336
02:15:05,040 --> 02:15:08,480
Speaker 1: I was taken in alive. UM. Just intriguing because if

2337
02:15:08,520 --> 02:15:11,360
Speaker 1: I was to watch all this video propaganda beforehand, I

2338
02:15:11,360 --> 02:15:14,080
Speaker 1: would have assumed that this guy wanted to die within

2339
02:15:14,120 --> 02:15:17,000
Speaker 1: the act. A lot of the stuff was written about

2340
02:15:17,080 --> 02:15:19,720
Speaker 1: him doing this to kind of end his life and

2341
02:15:19,920 --> 02:15:22,360
Speaker 1: escape into whatever is next. That that's the kind of

2342
02:15:22,560 --> 02:15:26,520
Speaker 1: feeling I get a lot of his writing, and yet

2343
02:15:26,600 --> 02:15:32,320
Speaker 1: he didn't of the imagery he was putting out, particularly

2344
02:15:32,400 --> 02:15:35,600
Speaker 1: the ship with him in in the asylum, as kind

2345
02:15:35,640 --> 02:15:38,640
Speaker 1: of evidence of where like part of it was part

2346
02:15:38,680 --> 02:15:40,720
Speaker 1: of why I suspected like he had he intended to

2347
02:15:40,720 --> 02:15:43,600
Speaker 1: get taken alive. That is, that is that is very possible.

2348
02:15:43,640 --> 02:15:46,400
Speaker 1: I mean like because in some ways, yeah, I'm not

2349
02:15:46,400 --> 02:15:50,640
Speaker 1: going to speculate, not necessarily the most useful. I'm not

2350
02:15:50,680 --> 02:15:53,760
Speaker 1: gonna I'm not gonna speculate further. But there's a lot

2351
02:15:53,760 --> 02:15:56,640
Speaker 1: of a lot of possible things to to think about there,

2352
02:15:56,680 --> 02:15:59,520
Speaker 1: which I will do so because I have all the stuff.

2353
02:15:59,560 --> 02:16:03,200
Speaker 1: Don't know what else, Please, it's you don't don't look

2354
02:16:03,240 --> 02:16:05,720
Speaker 1: at this stuff because it's like forbidden, right, don't don't

2355
02:16:06,120 --> 02:16:08,040
Speaker 1: don't seek it out because it's like, oh, it's forbidden

2356
02:16:08,080 --> 02:16:10,160
Speaker 1: knowledge that they don't want you to see. It's dangerous.

2357
02:16:10,160 --> 02:16:13,080
Speaker 1: Oh that's that's not the point. The point is it's bad.

2358
02:16:13,200 --> 02:16:15,000
Speaker 1: And now it's also hard to find. So like, just like,

2359
02:16:15,120 --> 02:16:17,000
Speaker 1: don't not watching like it's not it's not even it's

2360
02:16:17,040 --> 02:16:20,560
Speaker 1: not worth watching. It's not like stuff like like in

2361
02:16:20,600 --> 02:16:23,440
Speaker 1: the immediate wake of it, and like, my what happened

2362
02:16:23,480 --> 02:16:25,520
Speaker 1: to me? Was I got a fucking headache. You get

2363
02:16:25,560 --> 02:16:30,000
Speaker 1: a headache, you feel bad. It's it waste. It wastes

2364
02:16:30,000 --> 02:16:32,720
Speaker 1: your time. Like if you if you want to get this,

2365
02:16:33,080 --> 02:16:35,560
Speaker 1: like the experience of this without having to like do

2366
02:16:35,720 --> 02:16:37,600
Speaker 1: this ship like fucking eat a bunch of like eat

2367
02:16:37,640 --> 02:16:42,480
Speaker 1: a ship ton of candy, watch watching Watch, watch Pink

2368
02:16:42,520 --> 02:16:47,280
Speaker 1: Floyd's The Wall Jesus Christ, except except if you're eating

2369
02:16:47,280 --> 02:16:49,800
Speaker 1: a bunch of candier watching the Wall like it's actually

2370
02:16:49,879 --> 02:16:54,000
Speaker 1: before every good, whereas this is just like it's it's

2371
02:16:54,040 --> 02:16:56,600
Speaker 1: only the bad parts of that. But I only look

2372
02:16:56,600 --> 02:16:59,760
Speaker 1: at this because it's my fucking job and it sucks.

2373
02:17:00,240 --> 02:17:05,640
Speaker 1: H Yeah, all right, well, um you know I'm gonna

2374
02:17:05,840 --> 02:17:11,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say we're probably done here. Um, so I

2375
02:17:11,160 --> 02:17:14,560
Speaker 1: don't know until next time. Again, if anyone tries to

2376
02:17:14,640 --> 02:17:17,520
Speaker 1: tell you about something that happened on the internet, strike

2377
02:17:17,640 --> 02:17:23,080
Speaker 1: them and flee. Remember run hide, fight from people trying

2378
02:17:23,120 --> 02:17:26,120
Speaker 1: to tell you about things happening on social media. These

2379
02:17:26,120 --> 02:17:28,960
Speaker 1: are this is this is the good strategy going forward.

2380
02:17:47,640 --> 02:17:51,280
Speaker 1: All right, podcast it could happen here. It's a podcast

2381
02:17:51,360 --> 02:17:53,840
Speaker 1: about the terrible things that are happening going around the

2382
02:17:53,879 --> 02:17:57,760
Speaker 1: world and the wonderful people who are trying to fix them.

2383
02:17:58,720 --> 02:18:03,240
Speaker 1: What it is today is a podcast with Harek Lubani

2384
02:18:03,520 --> 02:18:06,840
Speaker 1: of Glia. And what really inspired me about the story

2385
02:18:06,879 --> 02:18:10,160
Speaker 1: and maybe want to share it with you, is that

2386
02:18:10,720 --> 02:18:13,920
Speaker 1: it came out of a really dark place. Terek was

2387
02:18:14,400 --> 02:18:18,040
Speaker 1: on the ground in Gaza treating gunshot wound victims, and

2388
02:18:18,160 --> 02:18:21,640
Speaker 1: a lot of gunshot wound victims, Like I remember reading

2389
02:18:22,120 --> 02:18:25,920
Speaker 1: his field testing of the device and just being appalled

2390
02:18:26,320 --> 02:18:28,200
Speaker 1: by the number of people who have been shot, a

2391
02:18:28,280 --> 02:18:31,880
Speaker 1: lots of them children, and some of the reporting he

2392
02:18:32,000 --> 02:18:34,400
Speaker 1: was doing right like, oh, I had this this torniquet

2393
02:18:34,600 --> 02:18:37,200
Speaker 1: and we were reusing them and they don't work very

2394
02:18:37,240 --> 02:18:41,400
Speaker 1: well on the pediatric application because kids shouldn't be shot, right.

2395
02:18:41,680 --> 02:18:45,400
Speaker 1: But instead of getting down, he was able to make

2396
02:18:45,440 --> 02:18:47,360
Speaker 1: a solution. And I think that's really important. And I

2397
02:18:47,440 --> 02:18:51,000
Speaker 1: really like that even through like this dark and terrible

2398
02:18:51,040 --> 02:18:54,279
Speaker 1: stuff that we've all had to experience and he experienced

2399
02:18:54,320 --> 02:18:57,600
Speaker 1: in Gaza, he was able to see a positive solution

2400
02:18:57,760 --> 02:19:00,200
Speaker 1: away to look after people, to move forward in this case,

2401
02:19:00,240 --> 02:19:04,119
Speaker 1: to prevent death and preserve life. And I think it's

2402
02:19:04,160 --> 02:19:06,160
Speaker 1: easy to focus on the dark stuff, that's enough of

2403
02:19:06,200 --> 02:19:09,440
Speaker 1: it happening, but I think it's important to focus on

2404
02:19:09,640 --> 02:19:12,920
Speaker 1: the great people who are doing great things to protect

2405
02:19:13,000 --> 02:19:15,120
Speaker 1: and care for other people as well. So that's a

2406
02:19:15,120 --> 02:19:16,720
Speaker 1: little bit of what we got today and I hope

2407
02:19:16,720 --> 02:19:20,760
Speaker 1: you enjoy it. So I'm here with Tarak Lubani. He's

2408
02:19:20,800 --> 02:19:23,480
Speaker 1: from Glia. Their company came across when I was writing

2409
02:19:23,520 --> 02:19:27,520
Speaker 1: about three D printed tournic case. Would you like to

2410
02:19:27,560 --> 02:19:29,280
Speaker 1: introduce yourself to us a little bit about GLEA and

2411
02:19:29,320 --> 02:19:32,320
Speaker 1: what you do there. Thank you so much for having me.

2412
02:19:32,840 --> 02:19:35,000
Speaker 1: My name is terrickle Banny. As you had mentioned, I'm

2413
02:19:35,080 --> 02:19:38,920
Speaker 1: an emergency physician. I work in Canada in a city

2414
02:19:38,959 --> 02:19:41,480
Speaker 1: in Canada called London, and I also work in the

2415
02:19:41,560 --> 02:19:45,640
Speaker 1: Gaza strip as an emergency physician as well. Glia was

2416
02:19:45,760 --> 02:19:49,560
Speaker 1: really an answer to a problem, the problem being that

2417
02:19:49,879 --> 02:19:52,960
Speaker 1: when I see patients in Gaza they don't get the

2418
02:19:53,080 --> 02:19:56,120
Speaker 1: same quality of service that I can give to my nations.

2419
02:19:57,040 --> 02:19:59,920
Speaker 1: Of course, that's multi factorial, but a big part of

2420
02:20:00,160 --> 02:20:03,640
Speaker 1: that has to do with the way in which we

2421
02:20:04,040 --> 02:20:08,920
Speaker 1: as uh that the medical profession have medical devices we

2422
02:20:09,040 --> 02:20:12,600
Speaker 1: don't release that we don't give access to other people

2423
02:20:12,680 --> 02:20:15,760
Speaker 1: to use. And so Glia's purpose was to take the

2424
02:20:15,840 --> 02:20:19,600
Speaker 1: most medical devices that doctors use and to make sure

2425
02:20:20,000 --> 02:20:22,959
Speaker 1: that they were accessible and available to doctors all over

2426
02:20:23,000 --> 02:20:27,440
Speaker 1: the world. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's very cool. And you

2427
02:20:27,520 --> 02:20:29,480
Speaker 1: make a number of devices, right, Like I know that

2428
02:20:30,160 --> 02:20:32,080
Speaker 1: I first called to you about the torn Q, but

2429
02:20:32,959 --> 02:20:36,480
Speaker 1: you make also a stethoscope. Is that right? The stethoscope

2430
02:20:36,760 --> 02:20:39,680
Speaker 1: is the calling card of medicine. And so it was

2431
02:20:39,800 --> 02:20:42,680
Speaker 1: the first project that we started working on to test

2432
02:20:42,720 --> 02:20:45,080
Speaker 1: out the theory. I mean, we started with the theory

2433
02:20:45,400 --> 02:20:48,160
Speaker 1: that hey, we can probably make a device that's just

2434
02:20:48,400 --> 02:20:52,040
Speaker 1: as good as a three D device, but the costs

2435
02:20:52,240 --> 02:20:55,640
Speaker 1: let's say three dollars or even thirty dollars. And that

2436
02:20:55,800 --> 02:20:58,760
Speaker 1: was the stuf scope. We tested it, we published the results,

2437
02:20:58,840 --> 02:21:01,240
Speaker 1: We proved it was as as good as the Gold

2438
02:21:01,320 --> 02:21:05,000
Speaker 1: Standards the Litman Cardiology three at the time, and often

2439
02:21:05,640 --> 02:21:08,640
Speaker 1: using it both in our own practices, also making it

2440
02:21:08,720 --> 02:21:12,680
Speaker 1: available other people to make for theirs. Okay, yeah, And

2441
02:21:12,800 --> 02:21:15,240
Speaker 1: so that's what's really interesting about your company as opposed

2442
02:21:15,240 --> 02:21:19,680
Speaker 1: to other companies, right, you're not necessarily like manufacturing and distributing.

2443
02:21:20,040 --> 02:21:25,160
Speaker 1: You are providing the designs that allow other people to

2444
02:21:25,240 --> 02:21:26,920
Speaker 1: make them, right, And so can you talk about some

2445
02:21:27,000 --> 02:21:30,240
Speaker 1: of their like, uh, I know that you use three

2446
02:21:30,280 --> 02:21:32,160
Speaker 1: D printing, and I want to talk about that. But also,

2447
02:21:32,280 --> 02:21:35,200
Speaker 1: like I remember seeing that the tubing and the setoscope

2448
02:21:35,240 --> 02:21:38,040
Speaker 1: comes from the a Coca Cola machine, right, for some

2449
02:21:38,200 --> 02:21:41,880
Speaker 1: of those considerations, Yeah, absolutely, the purposes to make these

2450
02:21:42,200 --> 02:21:47,680
Speaker 1: devices available to other people for the lowest as possible,

2451
02:21:47,920 --> 02:21:51,080
Speaker 1: but also like actually be available. It's no good if

2452
02:21:51,120 --> 02:21:53,480
Speaker 1: you can make it for twenty cents, but parts that

2453
02:21:53,560 --> 02:21:57,840
Speaker 1: required are nowhere. So that's why we much with a

2454
02:21:58,040 --> 02:22:01,640
Speaker 1: basket of items that are more or less earsily available,

2455
02:22:01,959 --> 02:22:04,560
Speaker 1: and we made the stuffoscopes out of that. For example,

2456
02:22:05,120 --> 02:22:09,040
Speaker 1: you can probably get the very specific kind of earpieces

2457
02:22:09,160 --> 02:22:13,120
Speaker 1: that most stuffoscopes have, but they are naturally going to

2458
02:22:13,200 --> 02:22:15,720
Speaker 1: be less available and less abundant than if you were

2459
02:22:15,840 --> 02:22:19,520
Speaker 1: to use regular earbuds the contact phones. There are way

2460
02:22:19,600 --> 02:22:22,960
Speaker 1: more headphones out there than there are stuffoscopes. Therefore, those

2461
02:22:23,040 --> 02:22:26,480
Speaker 1: parts are more available, even if, of course there they

2462
02:22:26,520 --> 02:22:29,480
Speaker 1: are less expensive. But even if they were slightly more expensive,

2463
02:22:29,959 --> 02:22:33,199
Speaker 1: it would be worth it. What we really take away

2464
02:22:33,840 --> 02:22:39,560
Speaker 1: is the monopoly and the profit motive. And so by

2465
02:22:39,680 --> 02:22:44,120
Speaker 1: doing that, or rather let's say the exorbitant profit that

2466
02:22:44,600 --> 02:22:47,360
Speaker 1: medical device companies are making, and by doing that, we're

2467
02:22:47,440 --> 02:22:51,840
Speaker 1: really able to to realize the promise of patents. All

2468
02:22:51,920 --> 02:22:54,440
Speaker 1: of the devices that we make were patented at one point.

2469
02:22:54,920 --> 02:22:57,959
Speaker 1: The promise of patents is that when the patent is over,

2470
02:22:58,080 --> 02:23:01,520
Speaker 1: you'll get a chief device. But that promise is not realized.

2471
02:23:01,560 --> 02:23:04,439
Speaker 1: The stutoscope is a three hundred year old device basically,

2472
02:23:05,040 --> 02:23:07,600
Speaker 1: and the fact that it is not available at the

2473
02:23:07,720 --> 02:23:11,640
Speaker 1: highest quality except for three kind of nuts. So that's

2474
02:23:11,680 --> 02:23:13,960
Speaker 1: why we started there, and of course moved on to

2475
02:23:14,200 --> 02:23:17,040
Speaker 1: more and more complicated devices, much more complicated even than

2476
02:23:17,080 --> 02:23:22,400
Speaker 1: the turniket. By now, okay, yeah, can you I remember

2477
02:23:22,480 --> 02:23:24,920
Speaker 1: reading because you you you kept a blog. I remember

2478
02:23:24,959 --> 02:23:29,039
Speaker 1: on medium where you talked about testing the tourniquate when

2479
02:23:29,200 --> 02:23:32,840
Speaker 1: when you were in Gaza and it just a like,

2480
02:23:33,560 --> 02:23:36,520
Speaker 1: you know, if you read medical literature then did this

2481
02:23:36,760 --> 02:23:39,560
Speaker 1: was just the shocking I remember being absolutely shocked by

2482
02:23:39,560 --> 02:23:43,520
Speaker 1: the number of casualties you were in counting and countering,

2483
02:23:43,600 --> 02:23:46,920
Speaker 1: and then also like you were saying, like the the

2484
02:23:47,120 --> 02:23:50,800
Speaker 1: lack of available tools. So perhaps you could explain like

2485
02:23:51,959 --> 02:23:54,720
Speaker 1: a little bit of what you saw there and then

2486
02:23:55,640 --> 02:23:59,440
Speaker 1: how these tournicates have been able to help you address

2487
02:23:59,560 --> 02:24:02,880
Speaker 1: that like massive disparity and access to care. The tourniquet

2488
02:24:02,959 --> 02:24:07,720
Speaker 1: project really started in Gaza because we noticed that after

2489
02:24:07,879 --> 02:24:10,560
Speaker 1: one of the wars, the war in two thousand fourteen,

2490
02:24:11,200 --> 02:24:14,680
Speaker 1: that we had a particularly high casualty rate, of course,

2491
02:24:15,120 --> 02:24:18,080
Speaker 1: but of that there were many deaths that we would

2492
02:24:18,120 --> 02:24:23,160
Speaker 1: classify as preventable death's where we felt that had tourniquets

2493
02:24:23,200 --> 02:24:28,080
Speaker 1: been available, those patients likely wouldn't have died. Um When

2494
02:24:28,120 --> 02:24:29,880
Speaker 1: we started working on it, of course, we knew at

2495
02:24:29,959 --> 02:24:32,160
Speaker 1: some point there'd be another war. It is it is

2496
02:24:32,320 --> 02:24:34,920
Speaker 1: very common in Gaza for there to be attacked by

2497
02:24:34,959 --> 02:24:38,560
Speaker 1: the Israelis. We didn't anticipate for it to happen so fast,

2498
02:24:39,200 --> 02:24:40,960
Speaker 1: and for it to happen in a way where the

2499
02:24:41,040 --> 02:24:44,960
Speaker 1: tourniquet was so necessary. That, of course, was what what's

2500
02:24:45,000 --> 02:24:49,000
Speaker 1: called the Great March of Return, where Palestinians protested on

2501
02:24:49,240 --> 02:24:53,480
Speaker 1: mass and one of the Israeli responses was to shoot

2502
02:24:53,560 --> 02:24:57,240
Speaker 1: live fire at the protesters, often targeting About eight percent

2503
02:24:57,360 --> 02:24:59,800
Speaker 1: of the hits were targeting the arms and the likes,

2504
02:25:00,080 --> 02:25:03,640
Speaker 1: which is where turnickets are the most effective. So the

2505
02:25:03,840 --> 02:25:06,960
Speaker 1: high number really is going to the way in which

2506
02:25:07,040 --> 02:25:09,040
Speaker 1: the Israeli has decided to deal with this protests, and

2507
02:25:09,080 --> 02:25:11,440
Speaker 1: the fact that it was a protest rather than a

2508
02:25:11,520 --> 02:25:15,560
Speaker 1: specific war, and that meant also that we could predict

2509
02:25:15,680 --> 02:25:18,360
Speaker 1: with the relative degree of accuracy where the injuries would be,

2510
02:25:19,000 --> 02:25:22,520
Speaker 1: which meant that it was even more important to have

2511
02:25:22,640 --> 02:25:25,680
Speaker 1: the right equipment of the right training. It was part

2512
02:25:25,720 --> 02:25:28,440
Speaker 1: of an overall strategy. So of course it's not like

2513
02:25:28,680 --> 02:25:32,039
Speaker 1: turnickets were the thing that saved lives. Turnickets were part

2514
02:25:32,080 --> 02:25:35,560
Speaker 1: of a campaign to train paramedics and to train doctors

2515
02:25:35,720 --> 02:25:38,000
Speaker 1: and how to stop bleeding in these kinds of injuries,

2516
02:25:38,560 --> 02:25:40,880
Speaker 1: and they were one of the most important tools in

2517
02:25:40,959 --> 02:25:44,680
Speaker 1: that campaign, but only part of that campaign. Yeah, of course,

2518
02:25:44,760 --> 02:25:47,000
Speaker 1: of course you need ed tools and obviously the education,

2519
02:25:47,080 --> 02:25:49,000
Speaker 1: and you can't just slap it on and in the

2520
02:25:49,040 --> 02:25:51,360
Speaker 1: person's fine, right, Obviously there's a lot of care afterwards

2521
02:25:51,400 --> 02:25:55,120
Speaker 1: which is important too. And can you maybe talk us

2522
02:25:55,200 --> 02:25:58,040
Speaker 1: through and you talked about like the promise of patents, right,

2523
02:25:58,080 --> 02:26:00,360
Speaker 1: and I think this is important in in exactly what

2524
02:26:00,400 --> 02:26:03,400
Speaker 1: we're talking about in torniicates because it's a little different

2525
02:26:03,600 --> 02:26:08,040
Speaker 1: to like medic medicines, right, It's a little different with

2526
02:26:08,120 --> 02:26:12,760
Speaker 1: medical devices. And so there are existing TORNI kits on

2527
02:26:12,800 --> 02:26:15,680
Speaker 1: the market, right, and I think that sort of market

2528
02:26:15,760 --> 02:26:19,600
Speaker 1: leading one is it's the cat. Can you explain like

2529
02:26:19,680 --> 02:26:23,760
Speaker 1: why and those not getting to people who need them

2530
02:26:23,840 --> 02:26:27,960
Speaker 1: desperately in these areas. The problem with the turnickets that

2531
02:26:27,959 --> 02:26:31,119
Speaker 1: are available right now kind of falls into a few

2532
02:26:31,160 --> 02:26:34,520
Speaker 1: different categories. North American Rescue. The makers of CAT have

2533
02:26:34,760 --> 02:26:39,320
Speaker 1: two key patents on the Cat, and as far as

2534
02:26:39,520 --> 02:26:42,879
Speaker 1: we can tell, just based on the posture of the company,

2535
02:26:42,920 --> 02:26:46,440
Speaker 1: if anybody else were to make exact Cat replicas, they

2536
02:26:46,440 --> 02:26:51,000
Speaker 1: will be suited. The people who are willing to then

2537
02:26:51,120 --> 02:26:53,680
Speaker 1: make exact Cat replicas tend to be people who are

2538
02:26:53,760 --> 02:26:58,120
Speaker 1: unaccountable and largely have not much to lease, and so

2539
02:26:58,360 --> 02:27:02,119
Speaker 1: that's why we saw a gla initially um for example,

2540
02:27:02,200 --> 02:27:07,800
Speaker 1: with the Ukraine campaign of tourniquets that that were relatively

2541
02:27:07,879 --> 02:27:11,200
Speaker 1: low quality, and so you can't just make the device.

2542
02:27:11,320 --> 02:27:13,560
Speaker 1: You also have to know that the device will work,

2543
02:27:14,000 --> 02:27:16,360
Speaker 1: because you don't want to discover that when you put

2544
02:27:16,400 --> 02:27:19,960
Speaker 1: it on armor like and then it fails. Gaza is

2545
02:27:20,360 --> 02:27:22,640
Speaker 1: an acid test of all of these things, because not

2546
02:27:22,920 --> 02:27:29,160
Speaker 1: only our devices generally not available or expensive, it's kind

2547
02:27:29,200 --> 02:27:31,600
Speaker 1: of at the bottom of any purchase list, for example,

2548
02:27:32,240 --> 02:27:37,800
Speaker 1: but also in Gaza there's a complete international blockade Israeli led,

2549
02:27:37,879 --> 02:27:40,080
Speaker 1: of course, but there are other countries that are that

2550
02:27:40,160 --> 02:27:45,879
Speaker 1: are contributory, and that blockade means that equipment can't get

2551
02:27:45,920 --> 02:27:48,160
Speaker 1: in so long as the Israelis deem it to be

2552
02:27:48,280 --> 02:27:52,240
Speaker 1: of military value. Um. This is where things like dual

2553
02:27:52,360 --> 02:27:56,480
Speaker 1: use devices and so on come into play. The tourniquet

2554
02:27:56,600 --> 02:27:58,960
Speaker 1: is a medical device. It is it can only be

2555
02:27:59,080 --> 02:28:02,160
Speaker 1: a medical device. There is no second use, and so

2556
02:28:02,320 --> 02:28:07,600
Speaker 1: it should be exempt. However, even if the Palestinians could

2557
02:28:07,640 --> 02:28:10,160
Speaker 1: afford fifty U S dollars per unit, which should be

2558
02:28:10,200 --> 02:28:13,640
Speaker 1: the cost to get one in, the Israelis won't let

2559
02:28:13,680 --> 02:28:15,920
Speaker 1: them in. So de facto, even though they shouldn't be banned,

2560
02:28:15,920 --> 02:28:19,040
Speaker 1: they are de facto banned, and that means that not

2561
02:28:19,440 --> 02:28:23,960
Speaker 1: only can we depend on cheap Chinese retailers. Let's say,

2562
02:28:24,480 --> 02:28:28,640
Speaker 1: to give us replica turniquets, we actually have to manufacture

2563
02:28:28,640 --> 02:28:32,800
Speaker 1: them ourselves. When we open sourced our designs, it was

2564
02:28:33,400 --> 02:28:36,880
Speaker 1: with an eye to two things. One making it available

2565
02:28:36,920 --> 02:28:40,039
Speaker 1: so that the replica makers can make higher quality replicas.

2566
02:28:40,520 --> 02:28:43,120
Speaker 1: They're already making replicas. We may as well give them

2567
02:28:43,160 --> 02:28:46,520
Speaker 1: a legal replica rather than a patent break busting replica.

2568
02:28:46,600 --> 02:28:48,680
Speaker 1: Not that I think there's anything wrong with that in

2569
02:28:48,760 --> 02:28:54,400
Speaker 1: these cases where there's emergencies, but just the same Glia's

2570
02:28:54,480 --> 02:28:58,440
Speaker 1: tourniquet doesn't break any patents. And at the same time,

2571
02:28:59,200 --> 02:29:01,440
Speaker 1: in addition to think them the ability to make high

2572
02:29:01,520 --> 02:29:04,800
Speaker 1: quality turnikets, we can also make high quality turnkets locally

2573
02:29:04,840 --> 02:29:10,280
Speaker 1: and domestically. Because of course, national liberation, as it were

2574
02:29:10,480 --> 02:29:12,840
Speaker 1: in the medical device space can't come if you can't

2575
02:29:12,879 --> 02:29:16,040
Speaker 1: make your own devices. We discovered that during COVID. The

2576
02:29:16,120 --> 02:29:20,080
Speaker 1: Palestines have known that for decades now, and we're kind

2577
02:29:20,080 --> 02:29:23,119
Speaker 1: of rediscovering it in Ukraine where there just aren't enough

2578
02:29:23,160 --> 02:29:28,520
Speaker 1: turniates and so they are forced to improvise or except

2579
02:29:28,560 --> 02:29:31,280
Speaker 1: tourniquets that they don't want to accept, right, Yeah, Like

2580
02:29:31,440 --> 02:29:34,480
Speaker 1: I think I think COVID was this great example that

2581
02:29:34,560 --> 02:29:37,240
Speaker 1: we can't continue to rely on the sort of winds

2582
02:29:37,280 --> 02:29:40,320
Speaker 1: of global capital to provide things that we need to survive.

2583
02:29:40,879 --> 02:29:46,680
Speaker 1: I think you're manufacturing is fascinating because you're using essentially

2584
02:29:47,440 --> 02:29:50,760
Speaker 1: commonly available materials in the three D printer, Is that right? Yeah,

2585
02:29:50,840 --> 02:29:53,400
Speaker 1: that's correct. I mean, we're not against using other things,

2586
02:29:53,480 --> 02:29:55,480
Speaker 1: they just have to be very simple. For example, are

2587
02:29:55,520 --> 02:29:59,680
Speaker 1: electronics use PCBs. You can't three D print electronic circuits

2588
02:29:59,800 --> 02:30:03,280
Speaker 1: just yeah, so we use PCBs. But when we design

2589
02:30:03,320 --> 02:30:05,960
Speaker 1: our PCBs. There are a couple of ways to design it.

2590
02:30:06,040 --> 02:30:08,280
Speaker 1: You can design an eight layer board that can only

2591
02:30:08,360 --> 02:30:10,920
Speaker 1: be manufactured in one or two places in the world,

2592
02:30:11,840 --> 02:30:15,160
Speaker 1: or you can design a board that's three times the

2593
02:30:15,240 --> 02:30:17,960
Speaker 1: size but can be manufactured anywhere in the world. And

2594
02:30:18,080 --> 02:30:21,320
Speaker 1: when you're talking about credit card sized devices, if it's

2595
02:30:21,400 --> 02:30:24,400
Speaker 1: notebook size instead of credit card size, it doesn't really

2596
02:30:24,520 --> 02:30:28,160
Speaker 1: matter that much. For example, the example I'm thinking of

2597
02:30:28,240 --> 02:30:31,880
Speaker 1: here as an electric cardiogram, where we took a device

2598
02:30:31,959 --> 02:30:36,000
Speaker 1: that had failed UM in the sort of market that

2599
02:30:36,360 --> 02:30:39,640
Speaker 1: they the makers open source and they had intended it

2600
02:30:39,760 --> 02:30:42,440
Speaker 1: to be a fitness device, and then it didn't work.

2601
02:30:42,520 --> 02:30:44,680
Speaker 1: Their company went bankrupt and so they open sourced it.

2602
02:30:45,360 --> 02:30:47,959
Speaker 1: So we looked at their schematics all of the problems

2603
02:30:48,000 --> 02:30:50,640
Speaker 1: that they had already solved. We said, okay, the problem

2604
02:30:50,680 --> 02:30:52,600
Speaker 1: we're going to solve is to make it so that

2605
02:30:52,680 --> 02:30:55,920
Speaker 1: this can be manufactured in a high school electronics lab.

2606
02:30:56,840 --> 02:30:59,280
Speaker 1: And we were able to achieve that it was bigger.

2607
02:30:59,360 --> 02:31:02,480
Speaker 1: It was twice as big, but who cares. The old

2608
02:31:02,520 --> 02:31:04,680
Speaker 1: one was half the size of a credit card. You know,

2609
02:31:04,800 --> 02:31:06,960
Speaker 1: who cares? You make get a little bit bigger. But

2610
02:31:07,200 --> 02:31:10,560
Speaker 1: at the same time, UM you make it much more accessible,

2611
02:31:10,879 --> 02:31:14,400
Speaker 1: twice as big, twenty times more accessible. And if some

2612
02:31:14,520 --> 02:31:17,480
Speaker 1: of your staff like your tourniquets, it's really um. There's

2613
02:31:17,520 --> 02:31:20,280
Speaker 1: not much or any really of a performance trade off

2614
02:31:20,959 --> 02:31:23,000
Speaker 1: from what you've seen, right. Indeed, they might be better

2615
02:31:23,200 --> 02:31:27,720
Speaker 1: for some pediatric applications if I remember correctly that that's right.

2616
02:31:27,879 --> 02:31:31,119
Speaker 1: So when you think of the way in which corporate

2617
02:31:31,200 --> 02:31:33,880
Speaker 1: devices are made, they are made to the specifications of

2618
02:31:33,959 --> 02:31:37,800
Speaker 1: particular buyers, and the buyers are the people who have

2619
02:31:37,879 --> 02:31:40,280
Speaker 1: the money. Who's the buyer for tourniquets? When you think

2620
02:31:40,320 --> 02:31:43,840
Speaker 1: about who needs tourniquets consistently, who do you who has

2621
02:31:43,920 --> 02:31:46,360
Speaker 1: money to give you turnickets? Who should you market too?

2622
02:31:46,720 --> 02:31:50,280
Speaker 1: There's only one sane answer, and that is First world militaries,

2623
02:31:50,720 --> 02:31:55,000
Speaker 1: especially occupation militaries or militaries that are engaged in UH

2624
02:31:55,240 --> 02:31:58,560
Speaker 1: ground level warfare, who are expected to take small arms

2625
02:31:58,640 --> 02:32:02,080
Speaker 1: or i e. D s. And so there are not

2626
02:32:02,240 --> 02:32:04,200
Speaker 1: many children who you have to sell to in that

2627
02:32:04,280 --> 02:32:07,560
Speaker 1: particular market. There aren't many small women, or even women

2628
02:32:07,600 --> 02:32:09,600
Speaker 1: at all they have to sell to in that market.

2629
02:32:10,120 --> 02:32:13,640
Speaker 1: So I don't think that North American rescues engineers would

2630
02:32:13,680 --> 02:32:16,720
Speaker 1: have any trouble making sure that their TURNI gets worked

2631
02:32:16,760 --> 02:32:20,680
Speaker 1: amazingly well for children, But why why would they spend

2632
02:32:21,440 --> 02:32:26,640
Speaker 1: one to million dollars doing that work and research when

2633
02:32:27,000 --> 02:32:30,160
Speaker 1: that's not their audience and that's not their buyer. For us,

2634
02:32:30,920 --> 02:32:35,680
Speaker 1: the normal person, the civilian is the in quotation marks buire.

2635
02:32:36,080 --> 02:32:38,320
Speaker 1: They're not the ones buying, but they're the ones who

2636
02:32:38,360 --> 02:32:41,240
Speaker 1: are the main consumer, and so they're the ones who

2637
02:32:41,280 --> 02:32:46,120
Speaker 1: we target. In Gaza, specifically, of the population is under

2638
02:32:46,160 --> 02:32:49,040
Speaker 1: the age of fourteen. You'd have to be crazy to

2639
02:32:49,160 --> 02:32:51,080
Speaker 1: go out there and put a tourniquet out that only

2640
02:32:51,160 --> 02:32:54,640
Speaker 1: works on big, burly men. So that's that's why we

2641
02:32:54,720 --> 02:32:57,200
Speaker 1: were we were driven to do that. And as for

2642
02:32:57,280 --> 02:33:01,200
Speaker 1: the performance trade offs, yeah, you're right. The the what

2643
02:33:01,320 --> 02:33:03,959
Speaker 1: we learned about spec sheets on lots of these devices

2644
02:33:04,640 --> 02:33:08,120
Speaker 1: is that they're made up. There isn't really a great

2645
02:33:08,160 --> 02:33:11,440
Speaker 1: way to know how well elternic it works. Unfortunately, there

2646
02:33:11,560 --> 02:33:15,160
Speaker 1: isn't a really great way to know how well stetoscope works.

2647
02:33:15,760 --> 02:33:18,120
Speaker 1: And so some of the first work we did was

2648
02:33:18,200 --> 02:33:21,560
Speaker 1: actually designing some tests so that we can say, okay, well,

2649
02:33:21,680 --> 02:33:23,880
Speaker 1: here's how you prove that the stutoscope works as well

2650
02:33:23,920 --> 02:33:27,280
Speaker 1: as that stutoscope, or here's how you prove that you

2651
02:33:27,320 --> 02:33:30,360
Speaker 1: know this works as well as that, and those testing

2652
02:33:30,400 --> 02:33:33,680
Speaker 1: protocols we made them open source and easily available too.

2653
02:33:34,200 --> 02:33:36,440
Speaker 1: For example, if you want to test the stethoscope, you

2654
02:33:36,520 --> 02:33:39,440
Speaker 1: can do that with a pair of headphones, a microphone,

2655
02:33:39,840 --> 02:33:42,279
Speaker 1: and the Hello Kitty balloon. That's how we did it originally.

2656
02:33:42,920 --> 02:33:46,959
Speaker 1: Could we have spent ten dollars making that test right, Yeah,

2657
02:33:47,040 --> 02:33:50,200
Speaker 1: we could have, but that wouldn't have helped us in

2658
02:33:50,400 --> 02:33:54,320
Speaker 1: terms of helping other people make stuftoscopes wherever they are. Yeah,

2659
02:33:54,520 --> 02:33:57,640
Speaker 1: that's very cool. And then by open sourcing that test,

2660
02:33:57,760 --> 02:34:00,840
Speaker 1: you allow for other people who have ideas or sort

2661
02:34:00,840 --> 02:34:03,680
Speaker 1: of models for their own improvements or different designs, that

2662
02:34:03,840 --> 02:34:06,200
Speaker 1: they can then use that test right and continue to

2663
02:34:06,320 --> 02:34:09,360
Speaker 1: improve and share their improvements with others. I do not

2664
02:34:09,520 --> 02:34:12,840
Speaker 1: want to work on stethoscopes anymore. I want to people

2665
02:34:12,840 --> 02:34:15,080
Speaker 1: to take it up. And it doesn't mean that I won't,

2666
02:34:15,160 --> 02:34:18,879
Speaker 1: of course I will. But my favorite thing is when

2667
02:34:18,920 --> 02:34:21,840
Speaker 1: somebody sends a message and says, hey, I like what

2668
02:34:21,959 --> 02:34:24,480
Speaker 1: you've done. Here's how I think it could be better.

2669
02:34:24,879 --> 02:34:27,960
Speaker 1: I love those messages. I love them, and you know what,

2670
02:34:28,200 --> 02:34:31,200
Speaker 1: nine out of ton of those ideas don't work out.

2671
02:34:31,280 --> 02:34:36,840
Speaker 1: They don't pan out. But like our stethoscope since two

2672
02:34:36,840 --> 02:34:39,400
Speaker 1: thousands seventeen, all of the improvements have been from other

2673
02:34:39,480 --> 02:34:41,880
Speaker 1: people because we haven't had the time and money to

2674
02:34:41,959 --> 02:34:44,520
Speaker 1: work on it. But we have been open minded, have

2675
02:34:44,640 --> 02:34:47,680
Speaker 1: incorporated lots of design changes that other people in the

2676
02:34:47,760 --> 02:34:51,960
Speaker 1: community have suggested. That's a good thing. It's good for everybody. Yeah,

2677
02:34:52,240 --> 02:34:54,080
Speaker 1: and I think it does an excellent job at getting it.

2678
02:34:54,240 --> 02:34:59,440
Speaker 1: They like the fundamental conceit of a Dragon device development model, right,

2679
02:34:59,480 --> 02:35:04,080
Speaker 1: which is uh, which isn't true. Actually, that there's massive

2680
02:35:04,200 --> 02:35:05,840
Speaker 1: R and D costs and those R and D costs

2681
02:35:05,879 --> 02:35:08,200
Speaker 1: have to be recouped by charging a massive amount for

2682
02:35:08,280 --> 02:35:11,119
Speaker 1: a period of time and making access to that medicinal

2683
02:35:11,200 --> 02:35:14,560
Speaker 1: device a privilege, not right, and then eventually the cost

2684
02:35:14,640 --> 02:35:16,720
Speaker 1: will come down. They often don't, and then everyone will

2685
02:35:16,760 --> 02:35:19,560
Speaker 1: have activities thing And it's like, it's been my experience

2686
02:35:19,600 --> 02:35:21,520
Speaker 1: that it doesn't work that way. But what you've shown

2687
02:35:21,640 --> 02:35:24,320
Speaker 1: is an alternative right that people want to help and

2688
02:35:24,520 --> 02:35:26,760
Speaker 1: that that they don't that there's not a need for

2689
02:35:26,879 --> 02:35:30,800
Speaker 1: this like price gouging to facilitate the improvement in this technology.

2690
02:35:31,120 --> 02:35:35,480
Speaker 1: Is that fair? We're not taking a purely altruistic model here.

2691
02:35:36,040 --> 02:35:39,720
Speaker 1: People are generally improving the stethoscope for their own uses,

2692
02:35:40,240 --> 02:35:43,000
Speaker 1: so there is a self interested aspect, if you want

2693
02:35:43,040 --> 02:35:46,240
Speaker 1: to present it that way. What we realized is that

2694
02:35:46,640 --> 02:35:51,880
Speaker 1: actually the most useful way to develop a device is

2695
02:35:51,920 --> 02:35:53,680
Speaker 1: to make it as good as possible and release it

2696
02:35:54,200 --> 02:35:56,680
Speaker 1: and then have other people who want to improve it

2697
02:35:56,959 --> 02:36:00,720
Speaker 1: have a capacity to share back to you. So as

2698
02:36:00,800 --> 02:36:04,120
Speaker 1: much as I I believe in altruism and I do

2699
02:36:04,280 --> 02:36:07,760
Speaker 1: think every time that I've seen people collaborate, I've seen

2700
02:36:07,800 --> 02:36:12,240
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of it, this more resembles the open

2701
02:36:12,320 --> 02:36:15,440
Speaker 1: source software model, where which is actually the world I

2702
02:36:15,560 --> 02:36:19,400
Speaker 1: came from. I came from the free software model, where yes,

2703
02:36:19,840 --> 02:36:22,480
Speaker 1: you do things just for the fun of it, but

2704
02:36:22,640 --> 02:36:25,600
Speaker 1: also very large corporations are involved. For example, some of

2705
02:36:25,640 --> 02:36:28,840
Speaker 1: the stuffoscope's improvements happened because the lab needed to use

2706
02:36:28,959 --> 02:36:32,360
Speaker 1: it for some experiments on animals, and so they made

2707
02:36:32,440 --> 02:36:37,520
Speaker 1: modifications and they fed them back. Amazing, that's fantastic, And

2708
02:36:37,879 --> 02:36:40,280
Speaker 1: but that that was totally self interested. That they knew

2709
02:36:40,360 --> 02:36:42,480
Speaker 1: that it would cost them significantly less to build on

2710
02:36:42,560 --> 02:36:45,080
Speaker 1: our work and it would cost them nothing to share

2711
02:36:45,120 --> 02:36:50,640
Speaker 1: back their their contributions. So it's you know, we're not

2712
02:36:50,760 --> 02:36:54,560
Speaker 1: going out there trying to to prove that everybody is

2713
02:36:54,680 --> 02:36:57,600
Speaker 1: good at heart, even though I do actually think that's

2714
02:36:57,680 --> 02:37:02,800
Speaker 1: fundamentally true. What what we're doing is showing through this

2715
02:37:03,000 --> 02:37:07,920
Speaker 1: model the devices can advance with relatively little upfront costs

2716
02:37:08,520 --> 02:37:13,040
Speaker 1: and with the contribution of many, many members. Yeah, yeah,

2717
02:37:13,080 --> 02:37:14,880
Speaker 1: that's a view phrase it really well. I think that

2718
02:37:15,080 --> 02:37:17,480
Speaker 1: people have this self interest which also serves out of

2719
02:37:17,560 --> 02:37:21,800
Speaker 1: people's interests, and and it's like, yeah, I've seen it

2720
02:37:21,800 --> 02:37:24,840
Speaker 1: in all kinds of open source communities, like we've reported

2721
02:37:24,879 --> 02:37:27,960
Speaker 1: before on three D printed guns, which is obviously it's

2722
02:37:28,040 --> 02:37:31,400
Speaker 1: kind of a different end of the spectrum. But it's

2723
02:37:31,440 --> 02:37:34,960
Speaker 1: fascinating to see this global exchange. And I'm sure you

2724
02:37:35,040 --> 02:37:37,680
Speaker 1: have people. You've mentioned that there are people in Myanma

2725
02:37:37,680 --> 02:37:41,320
Speaker 1: who are who are printing your tornic case. Right. We

2726
02:37:41,440 --> 02:37:45,680
Speaker 1: were amazed when people from Myanmar had reached out and

2727
02:37:45,800 --> 02:37:49,840
Speaker 1: said that we've senior tourniquet and we want to implement that.

2728
02:37:49,879 --> 02:37:53,080
Speaker 1: We have situation that's very similar to Gaza. We thought

2729
02:37:53,520 --> 02:37:57,960
Speaker 1: that's exactly what we want. What they did was two things. One,

2730
02:37:58,520 --> 02:38:02,720
Speaker 1: they took our instructions and they used them, but then

2731
02:38:02,800 --> 02:38:06,120
Speaker 1: they also fed back to us how those instructions were incomplete,

2732
02:38:06,600 --> 02:38:09,200
Speaker 1: how they could be better, and some design changes that

2733
02:38:09,240 --> 02:38:14,360
Speaker 1: made their lives better again amazing by them using it,

2734
02:38:15,000 --> 02:38:21,920
Speaker 1: by them taking, they also gave. And that's the sort

2735
02:38:21,959 --> 02:38:25,440
Speaker 1: of relationship, the kind of solidarity that we've seen. Whatever

2736
02:38:25,600 --> 02:38:30,880
Speaker 1: other people have used our devices, we've noticed that they take,

2737
02:38:31,200 --> 02:38:33,480
Speaker 1: and it's it's not a problem if people in and

2738
02:38:33,600 --> 02:38:36,160
Speaker 1: me and mar had just taken and not given anything back,

2739
02:38:36,280 --> 02:38:39,000
Speaker 1: that's fine too, because it doesn't take anything away from

2740
02:38:39,120 --> 02:38:42,160
Speaker 1: us to share. This is this is a kind of

2741
02:38:42,280 --> 02:38:45,800
Speaker 1: sharing where the more you share, the more there's potential

2742
02:38:45,879 --> 02:38:49,000
Speaker 1: for benefit, but there's never a loss. You never lose

2743
02:38:49,080 --> 02:38:52,600
Speaker 1: by sharing in that sense. We're not also trying to

2744
02:38:52,680 --> 02:38:56,240
Speaker 1: present it as though we need people to share for

2745
02:38:56,360 --> 02:38:59,000
Speaker 1: us to feel that this model works. We don't. But

2746
02:38:59,320 --> 02:39:01,879
Speaker 1: we're already may king it anyway. We're already using it anyway.

2747
02:39:01,959 --> 02:39:04,560
Speaker 1: We're sharing, and some people help out by contributing black

2748
02:39:04,640 --> 02:39:07,600
Speaker 1: and some people don't. It's it seems to me to

2749
02:39:07,680 --> 02:39:11,160
Speaker 1: be the most effective way to develop devices for low

2750
02:39:11,240 --> 02:39:13,360
Speaker 1: costs and make sure that they get out to where

2751
02:39:13,360 --> 02:39:17,240
Speaker 1: they need to be. Yeah, because they can century and

2752
02:39:17,400 --> 02:39:19,240
Speaker 1: people who need them can find them. As you found

2753
02:39:19,280 --> 02:39:21,960
Speaker 1: out right like people across the world, do you have

2754
02:39:22,040 --> 02:39:25,039
Speaker 1: a sense of where else they're being used? The turnickets

2755
02:39:25,120 --> 02:39:27,960
Speaker 1: right now are being used in Gaza, in Ukraine and

2756
02:39:28,400 --> 02:39:31,560
Speaker 1: in me and mar if they're being used in other places.

2757
02:39:31,680 --> 02:39:33,959
Speaker 1: Were not really aware of it, but people aren't compelled

2758
02:39:34,000 --> 02:39:38,080
Speaker 1: to make us aware of it. Um and and all

2759
02:39:38,200 --> 02:39:43,080
Speaker 1: three of those locations have moved forward the project tremendously.

2760
02:39:43,520 --> 02:39:49,840
Speaker 1: For example, for Ukraine, Uh, the Ukrainian support people weren't

2761
02:39:50,000 --> 02:39:53,360
Speaker 1: really able to contribute so much their own ability to

2762
02:39:53,480 --> 02:39:56,480
Speaker 1: construct and make, but they were able to contribute really

2763
02:39:56,560 --> 02:40:01,840
Speaker 1: important research, financial and testing capabilit lidaes and so of

2764
02:40:02,000 --> 02:40:05,440
Speaker 1: course a project like this costs money. They're like, hey, look,

2765
02:40:05,480 --> 02:40:08,600
Speaker 1: you know, we don't have farms print farms, but we

2766
02:40:08,720 --> 02:40:10,800
Speaker 1: do have some cash that we want to put into it.

2767
02:40:11,040 --> 02:40:14,440
Speaker 1: And we were able to use that money very very effectively,

2768
02:40:14,440 --> 02:40:16,400
Speaker 1: more effectively than if they would have bought the pieces

2769
02:40:16,959 --> 02:40:20,080
Speaker 1: to then create the capacity for them to go and

2770
02:40:20,160 --> 02:40:23,520
Speaker 1: make their own turn accounts. Okay, so yeah, let's talk

2771
02:40:23,520 --> 02:40:26,480
Speaker 1: about that. That's fascinating and uh, and we could maybe

2772
02:40:26,560 --> 02:40:31,560
Speaker 1: contrasted to a sort of another model, right like if

2773
02:40:32,040 --> 02:40:34,240
Speaker 1: UM because you you understand you're able to go to

2774
02:40:34,400 --> 02:40:38,959
Speaker 1: Ukraine and help them set up as opposed to Yeah,

2775
02:40:39,000 --> 02:40:40,880
Speaker 1: it would have taken months, I imagine to do that

2776
02:40:41,120 --> 02:40:44,160
Speaker 1: with I don't know how they make the cats, but

2777
02:40:44,360 --> 02:40:47,720
Speaker 1: they like they molded or something. But with with a

2778
02:40:47,800 --> 02:40:51,440
Speaker 1: non sort of with a non open source, non printed model,

2779
02:40:51,480 --> 02:40:53,680
Speaker 1: like to set up a tournicate factory in Ukraine or

2780
02:40:53,720 --> 02:40:56,640
Speaker 1: Poland would take months. Right, yes, absolutely, but you're not

2781
02:40:56,760 --> 02:41:00,680
Speaker 1: going to. There's two reasons why Northern I can rescue.

2782
02:41:00,959 --> 02:41:03,280
Speaker 1: I'll just call them now from here on out, won't

2783
02:41:03,280 --> 02:41:07,320
Speaker 1: do that. One of them is that that conflict at

2784
02:41:07,400 --> 02:41:10,480
Speaker 1: some point will end. It's very expensive to set up

2785
02:41:10,480 --> 02:41:13,800
Speaker 1: production lines. And the other thing is the more tourniquets

2786
02:41:13,840 --> 02:41:16,320
Speaker 1: you put into the market, the cheaper tourniquets get, you know,

2787
02:41:16,440 --> 02:41:18,880
Speaker 1: supply and demand. Like we learned that one pretty well

2788
02:41:18,959 --> 02:41:23,600
Speaker 1: from capitalism. And so they have an inherent disincentive, whether

2789
02:41:23,680 --> 02:41:26,200
Speaker 1: they recognize it or not, whether it's conscious or not.

2790
02:41:26,879 --> 02:41:29,520
Speaker 1: North American Rescue and all these companies have an inherent

2791
02:41:29,640 --> 02:41:34,720
Speaker 1: disincentive in flooding the market with tourniquets, whereas we do not.

2792
02:41:35,600 --> 02:41:37,840
Speaker 1: For us, it's the opposite. The more people we lose,

2793
02:41:38,400 --> 02:41:41,960
Speaker 1: pretty much, GLIA loses about ten to twenty dollars per

2794
02:41:42,000 --> 02:41:46,039
Speaker 1: tourniquet that we manufacture, we have no incentive to keep

2795
02:41:46,080 --> 02:41:48,040
Speaker 1: doing it, and we want other people to do it

2796
02:41:48,680 --> 02:41:53,040
Speaker 1: because we want as many tourniquets to be provided as possible.

2797
02:41:53,680 --> 02:41:56,519
Speaker 1: What we do then is we heavily subsidize the tourniquets

2798
02:41:56,760 --> 02:42:00,080
Speaker 1: using our own internal funds and and fundraising. That that

2799
02:42:00,200 --> 02:42:02,800
Speaker 1: we do with the goal of getting them out there

2800
02:42:02,840 --> 02:42:06,600
Speaker 1: so that deaths can be prevented. And so we want

2801
02:42:06,800 --> 02:42:09,880
Speaker 1: other people producing. When I go there, every tourniquet somebody

2802
02:42:09,920 --> 02:42:12,800
Speaker 1: else makes instead of me is less headache for me,

2803
02:42:13,080 --> 02:42:16,040
Speaker 1: is less pain for me, and is less financial loss

2804
02:42:16,080 --> 02:42:20,680
Speaker 1: for me and for glee. Of course, so our incentives

2805
02:42:20,720 --> 02:42:25,880
Speaker 1: are different. They want a shortage, consciously you're not, and

2806
02:42:26,040 --> 02:42:29,800
Speaker 1: we want an abundance. We want everybody to turnique in

2807
02:42:29,879 --> 02:42:34,160
Speaker 1: their pocket. Now, that's that's our goal. Can you talk

2808
02:42:34,200 --> 02:42:36,520
Speaker 1: a little bit about your experiences in Ukraine? Give with

2809
02:42:36,560 --> 02:42:39,879
Speaker 1: that pretty recently? Right, Ukraine is a very very complicated

2810
02:42:39,920 --> 02:42:45,080
Speaker 1: subject when it comes to tourniquets, because the tourniquet wasn't

2811
02:42:46,560 --> 02:42:52,119
Speaker 1: this h I'm gonna mind my words very carefully. I'm

2812
02:42:52,160 --> 02:42:56,560
Speaker 1: not Ukrainian, I'm not a Ukrainian doctor, and my experience,

2813
02:42:56,600 --> 02:43:00,160
Speaker 1: there is very limited. I am in solidarity with the

2814
02:43:00,240 --> 02:43:04,160
Speaker 1: medical community in Ukraine, and part of being in solidarity

2815
02:43:05,040 --> 02:43:10,280
Speaker 1: with a medical community is recognizing that even when there

2816
02:43:10,320 --> 02:43:14,480
Speaker 1: are weaknesses, it is not my place to insert myself

2817
02:43:14,520 --> 02:43:18,959
Speaker 1: into their processes. And so the way that the Ukrainians

2818
02:43:19,000 --> 02:43:24,400
Speaker 1: have approached tourniquets is at the outset to ban all

2819
02:43:24,480 --> 02:43:29,240
Speaker 1: three D printed tourniquets and two basically make it so

2820
02:43:29,360 --> 02:43:33,280
Speaker 1: that only what they considered to be high quality tournike its,

2821
02:43:33,360 --> 02:43:36,800
Speaker 1: mainly the CAT and another another one or two models

2822
02:43:37,600 --> 02:43:42,520
Speaker 1: were available in there. This unfortunately created a tremendous shortage,

2823
02:43:43,400 --> 02:43:46,519
Speaker 1: and the other thing that functionally happened was a disconnect

2824
02:43:47,040 --> 02:43:50,440
Speaker 1: between the policy makers within the medical community and the

2825
02:43:50,520 --> 02:43:53,680
Speaker 1: people on the ground. The people on the ground, of course,

2826
02:43:54,160 --> 02:43:58,560
Speaker 1: are doing whatever they can to provide care wherever they can,

2827
02:43:59,360 --> 02:44:02,280
Speaker 1: and the policymakers are a little bit more disconnected from

2828
02:44:02,320 --> 02:44:08,040
Speaker 1: that and so have different considerations. The shortage then creates

2829
02:44:08,200 --> 02:44:13,440
Speaker 1: this um difficulty. You know, there are of course three

2830
02:44:13,480 --> 02:44:17,879
Speaker 1: D printed turnikeates aren't accepted officially in Ukraine, but there

2831
02:44:17,959 --> 02:44:21,000
Speaker 1: are an abundance of three D printed tourniquets in Ukraine

2832
02:44:21,560 --> 02:44:24,920
Speaker 1: because the people on the ground are accepting them um,

2833
02:44:25,520 --> 02:44:29,599
Speaker 1: and what we see is a kind of grassroots experimentation

2834
02:44:29,800 --> 02:44:34,320
Speaker 1: with how it is that we can prevent deaths. The

2835
02:44:34,440 --> 02:44:38,680
Speaker 1: other difficulty is that tourniquets are a tool, and in

2836
02:44:38,800 --> 02:44:42,040
Speaker 1: bad hands, this tool isn't going to work, even if

2837
02:44:42,080 --> 02:44:45,560
Speaker 1: it's a great tool. And so one of the things

2838
02:44:45,680 --> 02:44:48,280
Speaker 1: that I realized, and I think everybody at this point,

2839
02:44:48,720 --> 02:44:51,439
Speaker 1: I'm not saying anything that's new or unknown to the community,

2840
02:44:52,320 --> 02:44:57,040
Speaker 1: we all realize that without appropriate training and how to

2841
02:44:57,160 --> 02:45:00,400
Speaker 1: use a tourniquet, they're not going to work. Um. And

2842
02:45:00,560 --> 02:45:03,360
Speaker 1: so even high quality tourniquets out there in the field

2843
02:45:03,360 --> 02:45:07,880
Speaker 1: are failing because they're being used improperly. It's causing unnecessary deaths.

2844
02:45:09,200 --> 02:45:10,640
Speaker 1: So I don't know how deep you want to get

2845
02:45:10,680 --> 02:45:13,760
Speaker 1: into that experience in Ukraine, but I think what we

2846
02:45:13,879 --> 02:45:17,480
Speaker 1: can say is that it's important to be in solidarity

2847
02:45:17,560 --> 02:45:21,160
Speaker 1: with that community, and as such, we're providing them all

2848
02:45:21,280 --> 02:45:23,760
Speaker 1: of the experience that we have and all of the

2849
02:45:23,840 --> 02:45:28,720
Speaker 1: capability that we have to produce tourniquets that the Ukrainians themselves,

2850
02:45:28,959 --> 02:45:33,640
Speaker 1: both officially and on the UH in the front lines,

2851
02:45:34,120 --> 02:45:37,760
Speaker 1: are able to use and and feel are actually safe

2852
02:45:37,800 --> 02:45:41,560
Speaker 1: for their patients. Yeah. Yeah, that's a difficult situation. I think.

2853
02:45:41,879 --> 02:45:44,880
Speaker 1: Obviously a lot of what's happening in Ukraine has been

2854
02:45:45,640 --> 02:45:50,120
Speaker 1: necessarily like like rushed, and it's somewhat graps chaotic is

2855
02:45:50,160 --> 02:45:52,360
Speaker 1: in it's their own word, but it took a while

2856
02:45:52,440 --> 02:45:57,400
Speaker 1: for people to fully sort of understand that the necessities

2857
02:45:57,440 --> 02:46:00,200
Speaker 1: of the scale and the scale of the conflict, or

2858
02:46:00,200 --> 02:46:03,440
Speaker 1: perhaps understand this is still the wrong word, but yet

2859
02:46:03,520 --> 02:46:05,280
Speaker 1: to come up with the most of the way to

2860
02:46:05,320 --> 02:46:07,720
Speaker 1: do the least harm. I guess that's such a great

2861
02:46:07,760 --> 02:46:09,680
Speaker 1: way of to frame it. And I think even from

2862
02:46:09,720 --> 02:46:11,920
Speaker 1: your experience as you see that very often in these

2863
02:46:12,000 --> 02:46:14,760
Speaker 1: situations that's the name of the game. It's not even

2864
02:46:14,840 --> 02:46:17,560
Speaker 1: doing what you know is best, but rather figuring out

2865
02:46:17,640 --> 02:46:21,640
Speaker 1: what the least horst scenario was. Yeah, yeah, so often,

2866
02:46:22,000 --> 02:46:26,160
Speaker 1: I think, and it's very easier I think, to to

2867
02:46:26,360 --> 02:46:30,760
Speaker 1: like backseat drive these things right from from our positions

2868
02:46:30,800 --> 02:46:35,320
Speaker 1: of safety and sort of plenty, you know, to say, oh,

2869
02:46:35,360 --> 02:46:37,480
Speaker 1: what should them, they should do that, which I think

2870
02:46:37,520 --> 02:46:39,400
Speaker 1: you did very well to explain that the first and

2871
02:46:39,480 --> 02:46:41,480
Speaker 1: most important thing is to be instolid arity with the

2872
02:46:41,560 --> 02:46:47,720
Speaker 1: people there and to hopefully allow their experience to guide

2873
02:46:47,760 --> 02:46:50,040
Speaker 1: us in how we can best help them to to

2874
02:46:50,480 --> 02:46:53,879
Speaker 1: prevent death, prevent harm, and so can you talk about

2875
02:46:53,920 --> 02:46:55,640
Speaker 1: what you were able to do there, what sort of

2876
02:46:56,400 --> 02:46:59,880
Speaker 1: interventions could you make to hopefully help prevent more dying.

2877
02:47:00,360 --> 02:47:02,760
Speaker 1: The main thing that that we did in terms of

2878
02:47:02,920 --> 02:47:05,760
Speaker 1: so I I kind of was there in with two

2879
02:47:05,879 --> 02:47:08,960
Speaker 1: hats on. One of them was the tourniquet manufacturing hat

2880
02:47:09,640 --> 02:47:12,040
Speaker 1: and the other one was as an emergency doctor. Because remember,

2881
02:47:12,120 --> 02:47:15,959
Speaker 1: fundamentally what brought me to medical devices in the first

2882
02:47:15,959 --> 02:47:18,880
Speaker 1: place was that I was an emergency doctor having problems

2883
02:47:19,440 --> 02:47:25,480
Speaker 1: actually uh caring for my patients. As a tourniquet manufacturer

2884
02:47:26,560 --> 02:47:30,520
Speaker 1: basically was about engaging with other people who are making

2885
02:47:30,560 --> 02:47:33,959
Speaker 1: and using tourniquets to understand some of the roadblocks and problems.

2886
02:47:34,800 --> 02:47:36,720
Speaker 1: One of the biggest ones is that there isn't a

2887
02:47:36,840 --> 02:47:41,960
Speaker 1: great way to test units of tournikets. So traditionally tourniquets

2888
02:47:41,959 --> 02:47:45,160
Speaker 1: are tested by design. Uh Nar says, here's our design

2889
02:47:45,240 --> 02:47:47,520
Speaker 1: and here's how we tested it, and then we accept

2890
02:47:47,640 --> 02:47:50,320
Speaker 1: that this particular company will make this particular device to

2891
02:47:50,400 --> 02:47:54,560
Speaker 1: this particular standard. But in the Ukraine, especially with the

2892
02:47:54,600 --> 02:47:57,160
Speaker 1: presence of replicas and three D to tourniquets, there became

2893
02:47:57,200 --> 02:48:01,000
Speaker 1: a new problem how do you test each unit rather

2894
02:48:01,120 --> 02:48:06,400
Speaker 1: than a specific line, and working on that, I don't

2895
02:48:06,440 --> 02:48:07,840
Speaker 1: know how into the leads you want me to get,

2896
02:48:07,879 --> 02:48:11,760
Speaker 1: but working on that is still a problem that is unsolved,

2897
02:48:11,800 --> 02:48:13,840
Speaker 1: but has been one of the biggest issues that we've

2898
02:48:13,879 --> 02:48:19,800
Speaker 1: been dealing with on the emergency medicine side. Of course,

2899
02:48:20,000 --> 02:48:22,440
Speaker 1: when I provide direct care to patients, I was in

2900
02:48:22,520 --> 02:48:25,800
Speaker 1: a hospital on one of the communities, on the front line,

2901
02:48:25,879 --> 02:48:29,040
Speaker 1: on one of the fronts, and so providing direct care

2902
02:48:29,240 --> 02:48:33,720
Speaker 1: became important. And working with the doctors, many of whom

2903
02:48:33,840 --> 02:48:37,800
Speaker 1: didn't really experience that much have that much experience with

2904
02:48:37,879 --> 02:48:42,400
Speaker 1: trauma patients, so working with them to share our experiences

2905
02:48:42,480 --> 02:48:46,120
Speaker 1: from GAZA in low resource trauma medicine, and also to

2906
02:48:46,280 --> 02:48:49,920
Speaker 1: gain from them their experiences because of course their scenarios

2907
02:48:49,959 --> 02:48:53,400
Speaker 1: and situations are different. It's more artillery based rather than

2908
02:48:53,640 --> 02:48:58,000
Speaker 1: small arms fire or um sort of bombing based, so

2909
02:48:58,160 --> 02:49:00,480
Speaker 1: they're they're different scenarios. I had a ought to learn

2910
02:49:00,560 --> 02:49:03,600
Speaker 1: from them. I did, and um I tried to contribute

2911
02:49:03,640 --> 02:49:07,200
Speaker 1: some of our experiences as well. The training I think

2912
02:49:07,440 --> 02:49:10,119
Speaker 1: is probably the number one problem right now, but that's

2913
02:49:10,640 --> 02:49:12,880
Speaker 1: my personal opinion. Is one doctor who was there for

2914
02:49:12,879 --> 02:49:16,200
Speaker 1: a limited period of time so that that individual unit

2915
02:49:16,280 --> 02:49:19,320
Speaker 1: tests that you're you're working towards is um because I

2916
02:49:19,400 --> 02:49:22,640
Speaker 1: know in theory, at least a CAT is a single

2917
02:49:22,800 --> 02:49:27,040
Speaker 1: use device, right and so in theory, if you if

2918
02:49:27,080 --> 02:49:29,440
Speaker 1: you just slapped it on something that could measure pressure,

2919
02:49:29,440 --> 02:49:32,920
Speaker 1: and Titan did that, devices and being used and shouldn't

2920
02:49:32,920 --> 02:49:36,119
Speaker 1: be used again to provide care. Is that the bottom

2921
02:49:36,160 --> 02:49:38,040
Speaker 1: that you're running up against or is it sort of

2922
02:49:38,120 --> 02:49:40,960
Speaker 1: making a way to test things it's replicable and cheap

2923
02:49:41,040 --> 02:49:45,040
Speaker 1: and accessible. Reusability was the number one problem that we

2924
02:49:45,200 --> 02:49:49,200
Speaker 1: tried to tackle in Gaza because we couldn't print turniquets

2925
02:49:49,200 --> 02:49:52,200
Speaker 1: as fast as they're being used, and so we use

2926
02:49:52,320 --> 02:49:55,120
Speaker 1: them up to ten times. And when I was in

2927
02:49:55,280 --> 02:50:00,080
Speaker 1: the hospital, I walked by this I V poll with

2928
02:50:00,160 --> 02:50:03,040
Speaker 1: a bunch of tourniquets hanging from it. To night instantly

2929
02:50:03,160 --> 02:50:06,680
Speaker 1: recognized what I was looking at. That was a tourniquet

2930
02:50:06,800 --> 02:50:10,400
Speaker 1: rewashed station in which tourniquets that came off of patients

2931
02:50:10,440 --> 02:50:13,800
Speaker 1: who are being rewashed, dried, and then sent back out

2932
02:50:13,840 --> 02:50:17,560
Speaker 1: into the field. Whatever you think the standards are for

2933
02:50:17,600 --> 02:50:21,640
Speaker 1: a tourniquet. When there's this level of of shortage, that's

2934
02:50:21,680 --> 02:50:24,360
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. That's what happened in Gaza, and

2935
02:50:24,440 --> 02:50:26,600
Speaker 1: that's what happened in the Ukraine. That's what I saw

2936
02:50:26,640 --> 02:50:29,560
Speaker 1: in my own eyes. Of course, we don't need to

2937
02:50:29,720 --> 02:50:32,560
Speaker 1: stretch that far anymore to recognize this. What were people

2938
02:50:32,600 --> 02:50:35,320
Speaker 1: doing with the ninety five masks two years ago in

2939
02:50:35,480 --> 02:50:38,520
Speaker 1: my hospital. We were holding them, storing them, washing them,

2940
02:50:38,600 --> 02:50:42,160
Speaker 1: reusing them. So this is something that we see whenever

2941
02:50:42,240 --> 02:50:45,520
Speaker 1: there's a shortage, and it makes the unit testing that

2942
02:50:45,680 --> 02:50:47,920
Speaker 1: much more important because if you could take an already

2943
02:50:48,000 --> 02:50:51,160
Speaker 1: used tourniquet and assure that it will succeed the next

2944
02:50:51,200 --> 02:50:54,800
Speaker 1: time it's being used, that is so valuable, so valuable,

2945
02:50:54,800 --> 02:50:56,960
Speaker 1: and it cuts down every tourniquet you can reuse as

2946
02:50:56,959 --> 02:50:59,200
Speaker 1: a tourniquet. You don't have to import, you don't have

2947
02:50:59,280 --> 02:51:00,800
Speaker 1: to buy, you don't have to package, you don't have

2948
02:51:00,920 --> 02:51:06,360
Speaker 1: to ship over all of these lines. Yeah, yeah, of course,

2949
02:51:06,680 --> 02:51:09,560
Speaker 1: And I think it's probably we should probably address like

2950
02:51:09,800 --> 02:51:15,280
Speaker 1: the the ways in which they can fail because I think, uh, look,

2951
02:51:15,480 --> 02:51:17,440
Speaker 1: just people in the United to date, if in an

2952
02:51:17,520 --> 02:51:23,000
Speaker 1: extremely like resource rich setting, right, we'll probably have knownly

2953
02:51:23,040 --> 02:51:26,600
Speaker 1: are unknowingly acquired trying to get on Amazon or somewhere

2954
02:51:26,640 --> 02:51:29,600
Speaker 1: else eBay that that might not be a real one,

2955
02:51:29,840 --> 02:51:33,520
Speaker 1: and so I want it's real, but we might not

2956
02:51:33,600 --> 02:51:37,440
Speaker 1: be a reliable one. Can you explain like like how

2957
02:51:37,520 --> 02:51:40,280
Speaker 1: they fail and what the consequences of that failure are.

2958
02:51:40,920 --> 02:51:43,680
Speaker 1: There are two kinds of failures when we talk about

2959
02:51:43,720 --> 02:51:45,720
Speaker 1: turnick outs. One of them is what we would call

2960
02:51:45,840 --> 02:51:49,600
Speaker 1: a technical failure, and the other one is a clinical failure.

2961
02:51:50,360 --> 02:51:54,199
Speaker 1: A technical failure is the easiest one for most people

2962
02:51:54,280 --> 02:51:58,640
Speaker 1: to spot. The tourniquet literally breaks in your hand. And

2963
02:51:59,080 --> 02:52:02,160
Speaker 1: that said, you hear a crack, you see something crack,

2964
02:52:02,360 --> 02:52:06,360
Speaker 1: you see a break, things fall apart the end, and

2965
02:52:06,560 --> 02:52:11,200
Speaker 1: so one of the things that we we want is

2966
02:52:11,360 --> 02:52:15,880
Speaker 1: to minimize these by over engineering. So, for example, the

2967
02:52:16,000 --> 02:52:20,880
Speaker 1: first GLIA tourniquet was engineered to spec you're supposed to

2968
02:52:20,920 --> 02:52:22,520
Speaker 1: be able to turn it three times, and so we

2969
02:52:22,600 --> 02:52:24,760
Speaker 1: made it so you can turn it three times. And

2970
02:52:24,879 --> 02:52:27,480
Speaker 1: then what I realized is that even I, who is

2971
02:52:27,560 --> 02:52:30,360
Speaker 1: like super well trained, I would be in the field

2972
02:52:30,560 --> 02:52:33,440
Speaker 1: running while my eyes were full of tear gas while

2973
02:52:33,520 --> 02:52:36,640
Speaker 1: people are shooting, and I didn't I'd forget did I

2974
02:52:36,720 --> 02:52:39,360
Speaker 1: turn it two times? Three times? So we over we

2975
02:52:39,440 --> 02:52:43,280
Speaker 1: started over engineering the tourniquets at a certain point. Of course,

2976
02:52:43,360 --> 02:52:45,440
Speaker 1: every turnikid is going to break. You turn it enough times,

2977
02:52:45,560 --> 02:52:49,800
Speaker 1: every turniquet is going to break. But that's not necessarily

2978
02:52:50,200 --> 02:52:51,920
Speaker 1: going to be the case if you have even a

2979
02:52:52,000 --> 02:52:54,160
Speaker 1: moderate amount of training. I'm going to turn it for

2980
02:52:54,360 --> 02:52:56,360
Speaker 1: five times, but I'm not going to turn it twenty times.

2981
02:52:57,800 --> 02:53:03,080
Speaker 1: So the technical failures are one kind of failure. The

2982
02:53:03,160 --> 02:53:06,120
Speaker 1: other one is clinical failure. Now here's something that I

2983
02:53:06,280 --> 02:53:11,760
Speaker 1: wonder if you knew about tourniquets from the gold Standard

2984
02:53:11,800 --> 02:53:16,320
Speaker 1: Company fail They fail on application, and that number goes

2985
02:53:16,400 --> 02:53:20,960
Speaker 1: up to if you were to check sixty seconds after application.

2986
02:53:22,080 --> 02:53:24,560
Speaker 1: So what does this tell us? What this tells us

2987
02:53:24,640 --> 02:53:27,680
Speaker 1: is a clinical failure is actually the important marker here,

2988
02:53:28,640 --> 02:53:31,160
Speaker 1: because we know turniquets break, and we know turniquets fail

2989
02:53:31,240 --> 02:53:34,000
Speaker 1: in general, especially turnickets that have been in some g

2990
02:53:34,320 --> 02:53:39,760
Speaker 1: i's pocket in Afghanistan for six months, those ones that

2991
02:53:39,800 --> 02:53:43,400
Speaker 1: their failure rate can go even higher. And so what

2992
02:53:43,600 --> 02:53:47,480
Speaker 1: we train people to do is to recognize clinical success.

2993
02:53:47,959 --> 02:53:52,480
Speaker 1: Put on a tourniquet, did the blood stop? No? Put

2994
02:53:52,560 --> 02:53:57,160
Speaker 1: on a second turniquet, did the blood stop No? Try

2995
02:53:57,160 --> 02:54:00,560
Speaker 1: a third one if you have them, obviously, And so

2996
02:54:01,000 --> 02:54:04,560
Speaker 1: the routine training involves applying a second turniket, and one

2997
02:54:04,600 --> 02:54:08,680
Speaker 1: of the like happiest moments for me. I mean, this

2998
02:54:08,840 --> 02:54:11,160
Speaker 1: is obviously better sweet, but it was when I saw

2999
02:54:11,879 --> 02:54:15,560
Speaker 1: a patient who was brought in by a medic who

3000
02:54:15,600 --> 02:54:18,000
Speaker 1: I had I had been in the training four and

3001
02:54:18,080 --> 02:54:21,040
Speaker 1: he had applied to turnickets to a guy who certainly

3002
02:54:21,080 --> 02:54:24,080
Speaker 1: would have died had he had he not had the

3003
02:54:24,160 --> 02:54:27,119
Speaker 1: turniquet applied to him. You know, I was exaguinating so much,

3004
02:54:27,280 --> 02:54:30,800
Speaker 1: injury so severe that he needed a couple of turnickets

3005
02:54:30,840 --> 02:54:35,320
Speaker 1: to really get it under control. So it's it's where

3006
02:54:36,040 --> 02:54:39,039
Speaker 1: we have to recognize that there is no magic tool.

3007
02:54:39,480 --> 02:54:42,760
Speaker 1: This is part of an overall program. There's no three

3008
02:54:42,840 --> 02:54:45,480
Speaker 1: D printer that's going to train people just gonna make

3009
02:54:45,520 --> 02:54:47,440
Speaker 1: you stuff and then you have to do the rest

3010
02:54:47,480 --> 02:54:51,880
Speaker 1: of it, right, Yeah, Yeah, So I think if we, uh,

3011
02:54:52,400 --> 02:54:54,880
Speaker 1: we should look maybe at the fact that like I

3012
02:54:54,959 --> 02:54:57,160
Speaker 1: live in the United States and you're in Canada, and

3013
02:54:58,280 --> 02:55:01,680
Speaker 1: I think there were like three mass shooting is yesterday, right,

3014
02:55:01,760 --> 02:55:06,600
Speaker 1: that they that the threat of violence is certainly at

3015
02:55:06,720 --> 02:55:11,440
Speaker 1: a high for recent times in h for why a

3016
02:55:11,520 --> 02:55:14,520
Speaker 1: more diverse range of people. Right, There's always been violence

3017
02:55:14,560 --> 02:55:16,880
Speaker 1: in this country. There's always been violence against certain groups

3018
02:55:16,920 --> 02:55:20,720
Speaker 1: of people disproportion in this country, but people are probably

3019
02:55:20,800 --> 02:55:24,040
Speaker 1: more concerned with treating down to your wounds, and they

3020
02:55:24,040 --> 02:55:26,920
Speaker 1: would have been ten years ago. So if someone was

3021
02:55:27,040 --> 02:55:32,600
Speaker 1: looking to make one of your devices, how can they

3022
02:55:32,720 --> 02:55:35,200
Speaker 1: do that? And they ensure or do their best to

3023
02:55:35,360 --> 02:55:37,240
Speaker 1: ensure that they are doing so in a way which

3024
02:55:37,280 --> 02:55:39,920
Speaker 1: gives them the best chance of success. At the moment,

3025
02:55:40,000 --> 02:55:42,600
Speaker 1: I would say to the individual maker, don't do it,

3026
02:55:43,120 --> 02:55:47,240
Speaker 1: not for a life threatening situation. If then, do individual

3027
02:55:47,320 --> 02:55:50,400
Speaker 1: makers want to make turnikuts, then they're going to have

3028
02:55:50,520 --> 02:55:53,800
Speaker 1: to be proficient at three big things. One of them

3029
02:55:53,879 --> 02:55:56,840
Speaker 1: is plastics three D printing, ensuring that the quality of

3030
02:55:56,879 --> 02:56:00,280
Speaker 1: the plastic is good. The other one is sewing, that

3031
02:56:00,480 --> 02:56:05,600
Speaker 1: is to say, assembling sod stuff. And the third one

3032
02:56:06,200 --> 02:56:10,240
Speaker 1: is is quality assurance, because even done perfectly, a certain

3033
02:56:10,320 --> 02:56:12,840
Speaker 1: number of tourniquets aren't going to make it. And that

3034
02:56:13,000 --> 02:56:16,240
Speaker 1: quality assurance is both at the moment of manufacture and

3035
02:56:16,400 --> 02:56:21,480
Speaker 1: then over time, because of course all devices deteriorate over time,

3036
02:56:22,000 --> 02:56:26,120
Speaker 1: but tourniquets have such an important role that you have

3037
02:56:26,240 --> 02:56:28,840
Speaker 1: to check them periodically to make sure everything is okay.

3038
02:56:29,680 --> 02:56:33,480
Speaker 1: So I would say to the individual maker, don't or

3039
02:56:33,560 --> 02:56:36,080
Speaker 1: if you do do it as an exercise rather than

3040
02:56:36,200 --> 02:56:40,200
Speaker 1: as an actual tool. If somebody is in an emergency situation,

3041
02:56:40,280 --> 02:56:43,320
Speaker 1: there's nothing they can do except to do it then

3042
02:56:43,720 --> 02:56:47,240
Speaker 1: be in touch with us. So, for example, there are

3043
02:56:47,280 --> 02:56:49,840
Speaker 1: makers in in countries that have been in touch and

3044
02:56:49,959 --> 02:56:52,480
Speaker 1: have said, okay, look, I have to do this because

3045
02:56:52,840 --> 02:56:57,039
Speaker 1: the situation here is bad. We support them as best

3046
02:56:57,120 --> 02:56:59,480
Speaker 1: as we can. We try to send people out to them,

3047
02:56:59,600 --> 02:57:01,560
Speaker 1: or we try to have them ship units to us.

3048
02:57:02,040 --> 02:57:05,120
Speaker 1: We try to get them up and going. Glia is

3049
02:57:05,280 --> 02:57:09,920
Speaker 1: not a medical device manufacturer. GLIA is a access to

3050
02:57:10,040 --> 02:57:14,360
Speaker 1: medicines and access to medical devices company, and part of

3051
02:57:14,440 --> 02:57:17,280
Speaker 1: that is making sure that people who are making medical

3052
02:57:17,360 --> 02:57:20,800
Speaker 1: devices are doing them to the highest possible quality. So

3053
02:57:21,160 --> 02:57:24,800
Speaker 1: if you are forced to make them be in touch

3054
02:57:24,840 --> 02:57:29,160
Speaker 1: with us, we will help in any way that we can. However,

3055
02:57:30,000 --> 02:57:34,320
Speaker 1: there's another category of people, and that is manufacturers who

3056
02:57:34,400 --> 02:57:37,720
Speaker 1: already know how to make medical devices. To those people,

3057
02:57:38,360 --> 02:57:44,520
Speaker 1: we say, take our stuff, please use it. Please. It

3058
02:57:44,720 --> 02:57:47,240
Speaker 1: is there for the taking, and it is high quality,

3059
02:57:47,280 --> 02:57:50,240
Speaker 1: it works really well, and if it's missing something, tell

3060
02:57:50,360 --> 02:57:53,280
Speaker 1: us we'll make it better for you and for us. Yeah,

3061
02:57:53,400 --> 02:57:56,560
Speaker 1: that's great. I think that's really excellent. Advice. Uh, perhaps

3062
02:57:57,160 --> 02:57:59,039
Speaker 1: a good note for us to finish on where can

3063
02:57:59,160 --> 02:58:01,160
Speaker 1: people find you they want to get in touch, if

3064
02:58:01,200 --> 02:58:02,760
Speaker 1: they if they want to look at some of the

3065
02:58:02,840 --> 02:58:06,240
Speaker 1: devices like making a stethoscope, I imagine could be like

3066
02:58:06,320 --> 02:58:10,640
Speaker 1: a fun project and put a lot less potential risk there.

3067
02:58:10,720 --> 02:58:13,440
Speaker 1: So where can they find that stuff? Absolutely, the stethoscope

3068
02:58:13,520 --> 02:58:17,279
Speaker 1: is such a fun project. It's fun because any everybody

3069
02:58:17,360 --> 02:58:20,920
Speaker 1: has a heart in general, and um, you can listen

3070
02:58:21,000 --> 02:58:24,000
Speaker 1: to your family and friends and loved ones. And it's

3071
02:58:24,080 --> 02:58:26,400
Speaker 1: one of my favorite things when I'm in practice and

3072
02:58:26,520 --> 02:58:29,600
Speaker 1: I listen for sometimes patient will be there with their

3073
02:58:30,000 --> 02:58:33,440
Speaker 1: son or daughter or child, and I'll tell the kid,

3074
02:58:33,480 --> 02:58:35,560
Speaker 1: you want to listen to mommy's heart, your daddy's heart.

3075
02:58:36,520 --> 02:58:39,280
Speaker 1: It's one of the best things. So the stethoscope is

3076
02:58:39,320 --> 02:58:42,320
Speaker 1: a great fun, low risk project. Please go ahead and

3077
02:58:42,400 --> 02:58:45,080
Speaker 1: do it. Make it. You can find our stuff anywhere

3078
02:58:45,120 --> 02:58:48,520
Speaker 1: you can find principle stuff. It's on thinking versuss, on printiples,

3079
02:58:48,720 --> 02:58:54,360
Speaker 1: it's basically everywhere or through our geth hub or on

3080
02:58:54,560 --> 02:58:58,720
Speaker 1: the Glia site. So that's clia dot org. And if

3081
02:58:58,800 --> 02:59:02,080
Speaker 1: people want to participe paid, they're very welcome to. We

3082
02:59:02,240 --> 02:59:06,480
Speaker 1: always want need and love, help and of course, it's

3083
02:59:06,480 --> 02:59:09,000
Speaker 1: a community. You can never have too many friends, so

3084
02:59:09,240 --> 02:59:12,280
Speaker 1: we're always looking for more friends and love to see

3085
02:59:12,320 --> 02:59:15,880
Speaker 1: more people. We have a matter most obviously, it's not

3086
02:59:16,080 --> 02:59:18,080
Speaker 1: just our devices that are open source. We try to

3087
02:59:18,160 --> 02:59:21,400
Speaker 1: make our tire stack open source so people can join

3088
02:59:21,480 --> 02:59:23,640
Speaker 1: and chat with us and you know, hang out with

3089
02:59:23,959 --> 02:59:27,040
Speaker 1: people who are doing really, really cool and super impressive stuff.

3090
02:59:27,560 --> 02:59:31,160
Speaker 1: At this point, I love to recognize the fact that

3091
02:59:31,360 --> 02:59:34,760
Speaker 1: I'm one of the least productive, least impressive people at

3092
02:59:34,800 --> 02:59:39,240
Speaker 1: clear Really the work that's happening is amazing, and it's

3093
02:59:39,320 --> 02:59:44,560
Speaker 1: led by lots of smart, dedicated, visionary people. Yeah, that's

3094
02:59:44,600 --> 02:59:46,200
Speaker 1: great to hear that. It's really cool that you can

3095
02:59:46,560 --> 02:59:48,640
Speaker 1: we can work with people as well, So hopefully people

3096
02:59:48,680 --> 02:59:50,440
Speaker 1: do get in touch. I'm sure there'll be someone who's

3097
02:59:50,480 --> 02:59:52,640
Speaker 1: interested in what you're doing but has something to contribute

3098
02:59:52,680 --> 02:59:54,880
Speaker 1: in some fashion. Yeah, thank you so much for giving

3099
02:59:55,000 --> 02:59:57,000
Speaker 1: us some of your evening. Is there anything else you'd

3100
02:59:57,000 --> 02:59:58,600
Speaker 1: like to say before we finish up. I think the

3101
02:59:58,680 --> 03:00:01,960
Speaker 1: most important thing to say is that there's this mystique

3102
03:00:02,400 --> 03:00:05,600
Speaker 1: that people develop. You alluded to it earlier. There's a

3103
03:00:05,640 --> 03:00:09,800
Speaker 1: mystique people develop around medical devices. Medical devices are solutions

3104
03:00:09,879 --> 03:00:14,560
Speaker 1: to problems and they were made by people like me

3105
03:00:14,720 --> 03:00:17,400
Speaker 1: who don't know what the hell they're doing sometimes, and

3106
03:00:17,560 --> 03:00:22,160
Speaker 1: so let's not you know, aggrandize or like separate ourselves

3107
03:00:22,240 --> 03:00:24,160
Speaker 1: from the people who are doing this work. Yes we

3108
03:00:24,240 --> 03:00:26,400
Speaker 1: have to be cautious, Yes we have to be vigorous,

3109
03:00:27,040 --> 03:00:29,280
Speaker 1: but at the same time we can all contribute to

3110
03:00:29,400 --> 03:00:31,840
Speaker 1: be a part of us. Very cool. And can people

3111
03:00:31,879 --> 03:00:34,160
Speaker 1: find you personally anyway? Do you have social media that

3112
03:00:34,360 --> 03:00:36,680
Speaker 1: that people could follow. Yeah, if people look at my

3113
03:00:36,800 --> 03:00:39,720
Speaker 1: name Terrik Labanny, I'm on all the all the socials,

3114
03:00:39,920 --> 03:00:42,280
Speaker 1: as is Glia as well, so you can contact me

3115
03:00:42,560 --> 03:00:45,640
Speaker 1: or Glia and participate in anything that you want. And

3116
03:00:45,920 --> 03:00:49,879
Speaker 1: like I said, we we always welcome friends. Great, wonderful,

3117
03:00:50,080 --> 03:00:52,640
Speaker 1: Thanks so much man, Thank you so much. That was

3118
03:00:52,920 --> 03:01:00,480
Speaker 1: such a pleasure. Hey, exackday with more episode this every

3119
03:01:00,520 --> 03:01:02,680
Speaker 1: week from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3120
03:01:03,360 --> 03:01:05,720
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3121
03:01:05,959 --> 03:01:08,600
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3122
03:01:08,680 --> 03:01:10,760
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on

3123
03:01:10,840 --> 03:01:13,320
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

3124
03:01:13,440 --> 03:01:16,200
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could

3125
03:01:16,200 --> 03:01:19,160
Speaker 1: Happen Here. Updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com

3126
03:01:19,240 --> 03:01:21,119
Speaker 1: slash Sources thanks for listening.