WEBVTT - Take the Wheel PT 1 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:06.760 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:09.559 last twenty five years writing about true crime. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.800 And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.400 worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.799 Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.720 compelling true crimes. 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.239 And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:26.040 new insights to old mysteries. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:31.639 Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.360 cases through a twenty first century lens. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.800 Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:39.800 This is buried Bones. 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.679 Hey, Paul, Akay, how's it going with you? 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.440 It's going well, And I'll tell you why. I want 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:10.640 to tell you about an episode that I don't know 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.399 if you've heard yet, that I recorded for Wicked Words. 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.160 I feel like I've interviewed some big names, including you 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.319 of course, like a David Grhan and you know, all 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:23.680 of these I feel like, really big nonfiction folks. And 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:27.240 then across my email comes do you want an interview 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:32.840 with Marcia Clark? Oh? Okay, So I was just awestruck, 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:34.920 I really was, and she could not be sweeter and 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:37.520 the interview is fantastic. You should listen to it. It 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.680 is not about OJ Okay, nor did she want. I 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:42.200 don't know if she ever wants to talk about OJ 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.280 Simpson ever again, she like she says, she sort of 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.640 blocked it out of her mind. Essentially, Where were you 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.360 when that case was going on? Were you in Northern 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.480 California or Central or where were you? 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.440 No? I was. I was working for the Sheriff's Crime 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:00.560 Lab at the time. In fact, I was some following 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:02.960 the case. It was a big deal in forensics because 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.760 of all the evidence, particularly DNA that was being presented, 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:10.080 and so we were following it pretty closely. In fact, 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:15.120 I actually faxed information down to the LAPD Crime Lab 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:19.200 because they're krim lists. Obviously didn't know what he was 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.440 talking about when it came to crime scene photography, and 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:25.080 the defense was really exploiting him on the stand, and 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.120 I was like, Okay, you need to really understand how 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:32.400 focal length with camera lenses can really change the front 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:36.600 to rear aspect ratios. So I compiled all this information 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:41.040 and faxed it down, But I distinctly remember that case. 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.400 Of course, I remember Marcia Clark in fact, I've spoken 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:48.080 with Marcia over the phone. She was getting involved with 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.000 TV production and I'm not sure if she still is 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:53.359 or not, but you know, we had chatted a little bit. 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:58.120 Then I actually sat next to Christopher Darden for dinner. 0:02:58.240 --> 0:02:59.959 I think it was an award ceremony. I had a crime, 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:02.400 yeh know, So I got to chat with him a 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.320 little bit. Real nice guy. And of course, you know, 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:09.000 they have this whole OJ trial hanging over their heads 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.640 for you know, forever in essence, you know, but I 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:16.639 most certainly understand sort of how things kind of went 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:18.840 awry for them, and don't put a whole heck of 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.679 a lot of personal blame in either one of them. Yeah. 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.440 Absolutely, I read there was an article and I think 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:28.040 the headline was something like Marcia Clark has been absolved, 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.560 and it was kind of how she's gone from I 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.880 don't remember her being as villainized as you know, this 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:37.720 magazine and a lot of other media have said. Back 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.240 in ninety five, I was too busy working in a 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:42.240 news station to really even pay attention to all that. 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.640 But now she's become this feminist icon, which she is. 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.640 After talking to her, it is probably my favorite interview 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.640 of all the interviews, sorry everybody else that I've including you, 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.480 I've ever done on Wicked Words, because she's so engaging 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:58.880 and much like you. You know, she had the case 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.080 she had Oj Simpson, you had the Golden State Killer, 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.720 and she certainly could have taken money back from a 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:07.920 big book deal that she had and then just sort 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.880 of gone off. But she has just stayed so active. 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.920 She has novels, She's got now two nonfiction books, and 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:16.880 I was talking to her about the latest one that 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.480 set in nineteen fifty three. As you said, she does 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.560 TV stuff all the time, so she really has stayed active, 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.120 and it was just so interesting to talk with her 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:28.440 about the case that she was talking about on my show. 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:30.839 Yeah, you know, I've completely lost track of her, to 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:33.080 be frank, you know, so I didn't know. I don't 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:34.599 know what she's been up to. So this is the 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:35.359 first tim hearing. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:39.919 Yeah, we talked a little bit about the misogyny that 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.359 was happening, which was pervasive, of course, and she was 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:44.640 told to soften her hair and she was told to 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:48.680 wear you know, kind of less I guess masculine was 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.160 the insinuation clothing, which she said, this is what I 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.040 wear to court. This isn't masculine to me to use 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.960 a softer tone. So there was so much stuff, you know, 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.640 looking back on it, she just said, it just takes 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.560 so long to process things like that. That's this is 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:05.640 stuff that you're just trying to do your job, and 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.760 that's the kind of thing that happens. She was investigating 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:12.039 a case from fifty three that the district attorney at 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:15.000 the time was heading up. This case. It was a 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:20.200 huge murder trial of a botched home invasion, and she 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:23.800 said that this district attorney was an icon to her 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:27.360 when she was working in la as a prosecutor. Everybody 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:29.640 knew who this guy was long after he was dead. 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:31.400 And then she said, I looked in the case and 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.360 it was awful. He was awful. He did so many 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.279 legal things then and now, and she said, it's really 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.480 dispiriting to have this person in your head like who 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:43.159 you're trying to strive to be. And then when she 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.359 actually looked and worked one of his cases, you know, 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.839 sixty seventy years later, to just see how many times 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.840 he failed and it was just really disheartening for her. 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:54.520 It was interesting. 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.000 Yeah, yeah, because I'm thinking nineteen fifty three. So we're 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.960 talking just a handful of years after the Black Dohlia case. Yeah, 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:04.320 out there in LA you know. So that kind of 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.320 puts some perspective because I've kind of dug into the 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.359 Black Dolly a little bit from the investigator side, you know, 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.920 and of course law enforcement was you know, so I 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.400 don't know primorgial, if you will, relative to today in 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.920 terms of how they handled investigations and crime scenes and forensics. 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.080 That case, of course never went to trial, but I 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:27.320 can only imagine you know, her assessment of sort of 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.160 the legal mind that she held in great and high 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.159 regard and now seeing oh well maybe not so. 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.640 Yeah. Absolutely, it was putting plants in jail cells with 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.840 a young woman, you know, not taking an account into 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:43.600 her background, and then you know, ultimately issuing a death 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:47.200 sentence to a woman who was executed for essentially, you know, 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:49.159 being a decoy. And that was it. And I said, 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:50.920 would you do that now? And she said no, Now, 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.000 they're accessory to murder, accessory after the factor, all these things, 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:56.360 you know. But she got looped in with the other 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.159 two robbers who ended up killing somebody, and she just 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:02.880 said it was a little stunning, and the district attorney 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.599 who she respected so much, could have said, you know, 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:10.240 sort of mitigating circumstances with leniency. She was saying, with leniency, 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:12.320 and he didn't do it. I mean, in this young 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:14.840 woman really did very little. She knew something was going 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.240 to happen, but she didn't suspect a murder would happen 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.160 at all. And then you're executing a mother of three 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:20.920 or four people. 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:24.680 Yeah, you know, and it really underscores, you know, the 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.960 power that the elected DA has, you know, And I've 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.160 been in the room where the death penalty is being 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.280 debated for a particular case, and of course that's led 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:37.480 by the elected DA, and then the prosecutor who's handling 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:39.480 the case presents the case. And now you have very 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:43.720 senior prosecutors chief of investigations. I happen to be in 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:46.240 a couple of these during the course of my career 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.360 at the DA's office, and today it is taken very 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:53.840 seriously and most certainly you know this scenario you're talking 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.400 about where sounds like she was an accessory in California. 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:00.680 Maybe this felony murder aspect is what they used to 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:05.400 go after her, but in essence to apply the death 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:09.320 penalty as if she's the one that's actually committing the murder. 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.280 You know that sounds way over the top. 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.600 Yeah, And I mean he nicknamed her the defendant Bloody 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.360 babs Oh in the courtroom in front of the jury, 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.320 and I said, is that Lee? I feel like every 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:23.880 other question was is that legal? Is that legal now? 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.800 Is that legal now? And every answer was like no, no, no, no, 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:27.920 And that's the issue. 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.400 Well the defense would object. You know, that's prejudicial, that's 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:32.600 influencing the jury. 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.160 It was startling to me. So anyway, Marcia Clark, I 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:37.840 am a huge fan. And I even said it from 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:39.800 the beginning. I said, I don't think I use the 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:42.400 word fangirl, but I'm really going to try to not gush. 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.640 And she said, well, thank you. I listened to your show, 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:48.920 so very cool. Marcia Clark is a celebrity in my 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:53.199 little world of celebrities. So I thought you'd find that interesting. 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:58.600 And we are hanging out in southern California in the 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:02.760 Pacific Palisades Act for this story. But this is not 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:06.560 nineteen fifty three, this is nineteen thirty five. To me, 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:08.600 I think you're going to find this interesting enough. We're 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:12.679 making this a double and it involves Hollywood and an 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.319 actress who I found so interesting that I actually watched 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.760 one of her films from nineteen thirty I think it 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:21.040 was from thirty three or so. There's a lot happening 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:21.960 with this story. 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:24.839 No, it sounds sounds cool. Now. I don't think I've 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:28.679 ever been in Pacific Palisades, but of course I'm very 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:29.680 much aware of it. 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:33.080 Yeah, yeah, of course, especially with the fires earlier this year, 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:35.760 and I had been thinking about that. So I feel 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:38.559 like every time I have a case where I see 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.400 that phrase of that neighborhood, Pacific Palisades, I'm always going 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:43.959 to think about the fire. So we are really going 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:47.400 far back where we're looking at ninety years ago. So 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.600 let's go ahead and set the scene so we are 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:55.000 in nineteen thirty five. Remind me when Black Dahlia happened, 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.880 because I actually have not looked at the case at all. 0:09:57.960 --> 0:09:59.520 I would love for you and I to talk about it, 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:01.360 and I think, will You're going to have to bring 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:02.840 it up if you think it reminds you of this 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:03.440 in any way. 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:06.080 Okay, Well, Black Dahlia was late forties. I believe it 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:08.480 was nineteen forty seven. But right now I'm a little 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:12.080 fuzzy on the exact year that it happened. I actually interviewed. 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:17.360 There was an author, this Steve Hodell, who's former LAPD homicide, robbery, homicide, 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:20.880 and he's written several books on the Black Dahlia and 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:25.600 he's claiming his father is the offender in the Black 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:29.720 Dahlia case. I'm not convinced, let's just put it that way. 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.520 But it is a case that I'm highly interested in. 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.400 And I actually did reach out to a professional friend 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.400 at lada's office saying I'd be willing to help. And 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.480 basically I got back from LAPD and the lada's office 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:43.480 well not at this time. 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.360 They have other priorities from something that was eighty years ago. 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:49.280 I guess you're right. It was in forty seven. Black 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:50.480 Dahlia was in forty seven. 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:53.600 Yeah, Well, basically they said that they were looking at 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:57.520 some things from the case, you know, So it sounds 0:10:57.559 --> 0:10:59.600 like they have an interest in pursuing it. But of 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.760 course a nineteen forty seven case will take the back 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:04.880 burner when anything else pops up. 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.160 Well, this is a confusing case. I don't know if 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.320 it's a cold case. So this is nineteen thirty five 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:20.560 the morning of Monday, December sixteenth. There is a housekeeper 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.720 named May and she's a little bit more of an assistant, 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.680 I think, to an actress movie star. Really, I'm not 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.600 even gonna say actress movie star named Thelma Todd. And 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:33.040 you know, I really was curious about Thelma. I told you, 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:35.719 I'll watch one of her movies and I would say 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.240 movie star. I mean, she really has a presence. She 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:40.360 is very well known. And I'm going to show you 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:44.600 a picture of her shortly, which sometimes I show you, 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:46.640 you know, the people who are involved. Sometimes I don't. 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:49.000 If I think it's relevant, you know, I'll show it 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.720 to you and it'll be relevant, I think in this case. 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:56.280 So her housekeeper shows up. She is at a house 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.960 in the Pacific Palisades. As I told you, this is 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:02.160 a neighborhood of la If nobody knows that. It's a 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:06.000 seaside community that over the past decade or so has 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:12.280 emerged as a secluded neighborhood for movie stars and studio executives. 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.640 And they build these incredible Mediterranean style homes so they 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:18.960 can get away from the hustle and bustle of Hollywood. 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:24.280 It's very, very hilly, so the housekeeper May works for 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:28.160 twenty nine year old Thelma Todd. She is a movie star, 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.000 and I'm just gonna jump right to it. She's our victim. 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:33.560 I think I want to give you kind of a 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.040 lot of context about her upfront, because I do think 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:40.240 it's relevant, especially with witnesses coming up. So she is 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.080 not a small time actress. She was in one hundred 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:47.040 and twenty feature films, feature films and a lot of 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.160 shorts over the last nine years. So she starred with 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.120 names you're going to recognize, right, Buster Keaton, the Marx Brothers, 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.680 Laurel and Harty, and then a whole list of people 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.440 who I'm pretty sure are famous, but I had not 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:00.800 heard of. She was slapstick. That was specialty, and that's 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.040 why I wanted to watch one of her films. So 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:06.040 there's a film called The ten Man and it's a 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.280 short and it was really good. I watched it on 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:12.400 YouTube and she is very lucy, of I love Lucy. 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:14.760 She's paired up with a woman in the scene that 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:18.679 I was watching. You know, they're very very lucy and ethyl, 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.280 and so I watched it before I really dug into 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:25.560 the story, just because any opportunity I know you do 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.280 this too. Any opportunity I have to feel like I 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.560 have a deeper connection with our victim, I wanted to 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.080 take and so, you know, it just kind of left 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:37.160 me sad more than anything, but sad's appropriate when you're 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.400 looking into an investigation. Also, I assume, I know, you 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:43.439 want to know everything about the victim. I'm not sure 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.560 this movie that I watched was relevant to this case. 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:50.040 I actually know it it wasn't, but I just felt 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:51.880 like I really wanted to see. Do you feel like 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:52.280 that too? 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:54.840 Well? You know, with the cases that I work, you know, 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.480 one of the first things that I do is try 0:13:57.520 --> 0:13:59.960 to learn as much about the victim as I possibly can. 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:02.599 You know, and I've said this over and over, victimology 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.240 is huge. You know, so who the victim is, what 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.800 the victim is up to, you know where the victim 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:12.200 is going. You know, all these circumstances surrounding the victim 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:16.720 sometimes can lead to the investigation to determine who's the 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:20.000 one that's the offender, who's the one that's responsible for 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.400 let's say, if it's a homicide. So that's that's important, 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:26.960 you know for the cases that I primarily focused in on. 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.040 You know, out of the sixties and the seventies. Oftentimes 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:34.280 I didn't have video of the victims like nowadays. You know, 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:37.800 if somebody ends up being a victim, there's all this 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.560 social media stuff that's been posted, and you can really 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.200 see the victim in life. In this case, you know, 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.760 nineteen thirty five with Thelma Todd. You know, this is 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:51.200 probably an unusual circumstance where now you know, a homicide 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:56.280 victim you can actually see in life. Now she's portraying somebody. 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.280 She's an actress, right, so it's not necessarily her and 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:03.760 her personality, but it's still a living person that you know, 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.600 ended up dying for one reason or another. 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.360 Yeah. One thing about Thelma that I think would occur 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:13.320 with any Hollywood actress or actor, or anybody who's well 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:17.120 known as this would be somebody who strangers would recognize. 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:19.440 You know, we're often talking about that. In all of 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.000 my cases, it feels like I hear the same thing 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.280 over and over again, especially in the eighteen hundreds. It 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.720 looks like that guy, Yeah, that guy looked like your suspect. 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.560 But Thelma Todd was and I'm going to show you 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:32.920 the photo in a second, Thelma Todd would have stood 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.840 out even in Pacific Palisades at this time. So that's 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.160 what makes to me this story really interesting too. 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.480 Well, it sounds like she was a highly successful actor, 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:47.440 you know, so she was celebrity famous. Yeah, you know, 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.720 the name is tickling my brain, you know, but I'm 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:51.760 not picturing who she is. 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:55.400 Well you can picture her now and this is a headshot. 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:56.680 Let me know what you think. 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:58.920 Oh yeah. One of the things that I do that 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:03.720 people might think is somewhat strange. There's a YouTube channel 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:08.040 called Hollywood Graveyard and it's very well done. And this 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:13.200 guy he goes to the various cemeteries around and he's 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:14.880 now doing it all over the world, but he started 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.800 out there in the LA area, and he, you know, 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:22.120 tells stories about the various celebrities that are buried or 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:26.720 interred in some manner at these various cemeteries. And I 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:31.280 believe that he's covered Thelma Todd if she's out there, 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:32.840 that she looks very familiar. 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:38.040 Yeah. So Gene Harlowe was considered the original bombshell, and 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:41.280 bombshell now I think would be considered an insult for 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.680 a woman, you know, dismissive and really concentrating on her looks, 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:49.920 but Thelma Todd was in that category for Hollywood in 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.560 the nineteen thirties. She was definitely considered the blonde bombshell. 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:56.680 I'm going to skip right over that and just say 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.840 she was an excellent actress, obviously incredibly success and she 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.760 was also somebody who had businesses. And that plays into 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.160 it a little bit here too. Where we are when 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.240 all this stuff starts to happen with Thelma is at 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:13.480 the time of her death, she was shooting a movie, 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:16.840 and she was starring in two, how roach films that 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.840 were about to be released. One was called All American Toothache. 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.280 I watched part of that, and another one was called 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:26.720 Bohemian Girl, and that's on my list. So she lives 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.760 in an apartment above the restaurant that she owns. She 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:34.080 runs this place. It's called Thelma Todd's Sidewalk Cafe, and 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.240 it's on what we now call the Pacific Coast Highway, 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:39.639 right on the ocean. So this is sort of her 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.560 retirement plan. And she was one of the very first 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.960 celebrities to sort of use her brand, you know, put 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.400 her actual name on a cafe rather than just calling 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.280 it the sidewalk Cafe. She put her name on it, 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:55.800 and that was not usual. So that's what we mean 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.200 by she was sort of innovative and somebody who really 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:02.080 wanted to be aggressive. Writing that at age twenty nine 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.440 in the nineteen thirties, she could have been not far 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.760 another decade off of her career. Unfortunately, I don't know, 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.919 but she was planning ahead. So now we've got a 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.959 Hollywood actress who also seems to have some money, and 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.960 she has an investment in a business and is well known. 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:19.440 So that's where we stand right now. 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.800 Okay, Yeah, So in essence, this celebrity aspect is of 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:27.600 course going to draw attention and just from her, you know, 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:31.640 the prolific nature of the number of films she's been in. 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.960 You know, people that may have bad intent of course, 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.040 are going to assume she's got a lot of money, 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.240 and it sounds like with some of the business aspects 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.760 she's utilizing her money wisely. So she even has more 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.879 money than maybe the average actress at that time. Yep. 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:51.880 So let's talk about her as a person. So May 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:55.119 the housekeeper wants to find out where Thelma is, but 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:59.280 she also kind of understands that Thelma is a young 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:01.359 woman who likes to go out a lot. She stays 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:03.800 out late at night. She might not come home, and 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.400 so I don't think she's particularly alarmed just yet. It's 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.560 not out of character for her to sleep away from home, 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.320 especially on a weekend. She has a really active social life. 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:15.960 And we have some more details on water social life 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.600 was like coming up, May looks through this apartment, there's 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.760 no one there. Then she goes to the house up 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.679 the hill, and this is where Thelma stays. Sometimes she 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.840 is not there either. Now here is just sort of 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.560 a theoretical question. I guess May has not decided to 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.600 call the police yet, and you know, I know it's 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:38.840 because she's thinking in her head, well, she doesn't have 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.159 to report to me when she's doing what and when. 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.720 But at the same time, you know, at what point 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.760 should somebody call the police? Is if somebody has not 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:50.959 come home and it's completely out of their character, I 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:53.520 just don't know what at what point do you sort 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:56.800 of draw that line. It's intimidating to call the police, Paul, 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.800 to me, at least, because you know, if somebody walks 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:03.000 through the door, you feel stupid. You have to explain stuff. 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.359 So I think probably a lot of people feel like that. 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.200 Yeah, I can see where there would be some reservation. 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:12.600 You know, it's so variable as to when somebody should 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:16.439 call the police. You know. Here with May, it sounds like, 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:18.320 I mean, you described her as a housekeeper, but it 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.120 sounds like she was more of a like an assistant yea, 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:23.919 you know, helping Thelma with all her day in and 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.879 day out activities, coordinating things, et cetera. So more of 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:31.359 like an executive assistant. And so I would say, you know, 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.040 under that set of circumstances, you know, it sounds like 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:40.320 Thelma not coming back to the apartment that particular night. 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:42.960 It's a Sunday night, and you know, we're going to 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:45.800 find out that she was last seen Saturday. Okay, So 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:49.080 as far as May new, Thelma went out, and I'll 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:50.840 tell you with who in a little bit Saturday night. 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.320 She hasn't talked to her since. And it's Monday morning, 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:55.600 and she I think she's thinking, well, I don't know, 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.840 because it's been Sunday and Monday. I'm surprised she's not 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:02.320 here Monday morning because she would have been working at 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:04.080 the cafe and doing stuff with the cafe. 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:08.560 I would say, you know, May's insight into what Thelma's 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:13.960 normal routine would be because of May's position with Thelma, 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.679 where she's now seeing Thelma is not doing what she 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:21.520 normally would, you know, now it's stepping outside the routine 0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:24.679 depending on like if Thelma is not showing up at 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:26.879 the restaurant and the restaurant ends up having to be 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:30.919 closed or whatever, you know, or Thelma has some sort 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.439 of meeting with a network executive or whatever it is, 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:38.879 and May's going Thelma wouldn't do this now at this point, 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:41.320 then there should be concerned, Yeah, because now this is 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:44.919 outside of the victimology that we know of for Thelma 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:48.399 that May knows for Thelman. And I would say that's 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:51.720 kind of the same for any time somebody goes missing. 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:54.040 You know, law enforcement needs to do a better job 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:57.520 listening to the families because the families go, this isn't right, right, 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:01.480 But oftentimes they're reporting an adult missing, and so many 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:05.760 times when that happens, law enforcement, you know, goes, well, 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:09.240 this person has just left and they have an absolute 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:12.280 right to leave, and we're not going to spend resources 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.399 to try to track that person down until there's a 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.439 set of circumstances in which now we think there's an 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:23.879 endangered aspect to this missing adult. But with Thelma right now, 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:28.520 it seems like May is recognizing Thelma would not normally 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:31.400 be missing at this particular time during the day. 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:38.199 Absolutely, so May knows there are a few more places 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:41.040 she can check. She's not in the apartment down below, 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:43.520 She's not up the hill at this place, and this 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:45.800 is a big hill too, you know where she would 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:47.600 kind of go back and forth between staying at the 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:50.320 house at the top of the hill staying in her apartment. 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:53.320 So May decides she needs to look a few more 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:57.119 places before we talk about, you know where else she looks. 0:22:57.200 --> 0:22:59.800 I want to say that the reason that Thelma stays 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:01.840 at the house on the hill sometimes is that she's 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:05.199 been dating a movie director for quite a while. His 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:08.879 name is Roland West, and he's the one who owns 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:13.240 that house. Nobody's at this house, and May has apparently 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:16.040 a key to be able to get in Roland and Thelma. 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:18.399 This is where things get a little complicated. Roland and 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:22.040 Thelma own the apartment above the restaurant together, but they 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:26.720 have separate bedrooms which are divided by a sliding wooden door, 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:34.120 and Roland is still technically married to another actress named 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:38.760 jul Carmen. Jewel is not a big Hollywood star. She's 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:41.800 a small time actress and it sounds like her career 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:47.280 acting might be somewhat over. So she is married to Roland, 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:53.160 and technically, while Thelma owns part of the restaurant Thelma 0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:57.480 Todd's Cafe, Roland and Jewel together own part of it. Also, 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:00.480 it's a little murky with this whole relation ship thing 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:03.439 is like, but it doesn't sound like there have been 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:08.159 public blowups. They're not in the press. It seems like 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:12.040 whatever is happening seems kind of cordial in a way, 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:14.400 or maybe they've worked out some kind of an agreement. 0:24:15.000 --> 0:24:18.639 But now you've got Thelma involved with another Hollywood actress 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:21.560 and then a director, and everybody seems to be kind 0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:25.760 of sharing residences. It kind of gets odd after this, Yeah. 0:24:25.640 --> 0:24:28.240 You know, of course, you know, this sounds like the 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:32.080 typical lover's triangle, you know, in which you could potentially 0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:35.760 have jealousies arise. And it really does come down to, 0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:40.720 you know, what does Jewel, Roland's wife know about his 0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:44.840 relationship with Thelma. Is this something that she has accepted, 0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:49.800 you know? So of course, early investigations into the victimology, 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:53.639 and once this is found out, then it's you know, 0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:56.880 talking to Roland, talking to Jewel and go, okay, what's 0:24:56.920 --> 0:24:59.600 going on here? You know? Is this something that's just 0:24:59.640 --> 0:25:02.879 a an open type of marriage and this was an 0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:08.160 accepted relationship. There's financial aspects that bind the three together 0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:12.080 up and beyond the relationships, you know, with the ownership 0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:15.240 of the restaurant, et cetera. So that's that's interesting. 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:18.560 What do you think about the separate bedrooms thing? Is 0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:21.480 that surprising to you? Knowing he's married, and I do 0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:22.639 think Jewel stays there. 0:25:22.880 --> 0:25:24.639 I don't know, I don't think, you know, I'm not 0:25:24.680 --> 0:25:27.119 overly surprised by that. I think it just depends on 0:25:27.440 --> 0:25:32.439 what Thelma and Roland's relationship really is like, you know, 0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:35.199 and it could just be a convenience aspect, you know, 0:25:35.240 --> 0:25:38.880 whether maybe these these rooms above the restaurant are very small, 0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:42.760 you know, or they just prefer to sleep separately when 0:25:42.760 --> 0:25:46.399 they're not engaging together. You know. I don't know, you know, 0:25:46.440 --> 0:25:49.159 I don't put a lot of weight on that right now, 0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:52.240 you know, I think just the dynamics of the Thelma, 0:25:52.320 --> 0:25:57.639 Roland and Jewel triangle, of course, is a red flag 0:25:57.880 --> 0:25:59.320 at least at this stage. 0:25:59.440 --> 0:26:03.560 Okay, tell me tell you about the connection and how 0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:07.400 you would travel from the apartment, which is by the ocean, 0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:12.760 up to this monster hill to get to Roland's beautiful house. 0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:17.520 The restaurant and the apartment are directly downhill from Roland's house. 0:26:17.920 --> 0:26:21.280 And I will have two incredibly confusing maps for you 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:24.400 in just a few minutes. And thank you for You're 0:26:24.440 --> 0:26:27.840 welcome for that. Sometimes I think that these are awful maps, 0:26:27.880 --> 0:26:29.520 and then you look at them and go, well, this 0:26:29.600 --> 0:26:31.320 is the best thing I've ever seen, Kate. Thank you 0:26:32.000 --> 0:26:34.120 bring me more of these terrible maps, so we'll see 0:26:34.119 --> 0:26:37.760 what you say. But to get from the apartment or 0:26:37.800 --> 0:26:41.639 the cafe up to Roland's place in a car, there 0:26:41.640 --> 0:26:44.240 are a lot of little hairpin turns that you would 0:26:44.240 --> 0:26:45.919 have to get to. It's not easy. It's not a 0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:49.439 straight shot. And then if you're going by foot, it 0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:51.680 would have been a hill of a climb. It's several 0:26:51.840 --> 0:26:56.960 steep staircases in the hillside. Thelma, and I'll tell you 0:26:56.960 --> 0:26:59.160 a little bit more about this in a second had 0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:02.919 developed a heart can and May used to drive her 0:27:03.000 --> 0:27:06.280 up in her car to get to the top. If 0:27:06.280 --> 0:27:08.680 she wanted to spend the night at Roland's house, and 0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:11.560 then Thelma would drive down or maybe May would walk up, 0:27:11.600 --> 0:27:13.880 and it didn't seem like a huge deal for May, 0:27:13.920 --> 0:27:15.800 but it was substantial. I don't know if you want 0:27:15.800 --> 0:27:18.240 to see that now, but it does come into play 0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:21.200 about Thelma and how she would have gone from one 0:27:21.240 --> 0:27:23.320 place to the other if she had a heart condition, 0:27:23.920 --> 0:27:26.520 or we could get to her what happens to her. 0:27:27.040 --> 0:27:29.639 Yeah, let's get to let's get to sort of the 0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:33.880 heart of the matter, and then we can expand out 0:27:33.880 --> 0:27:34.280 from there. 0:27:34.600 --> 0:27:37.800 There's no sign of Thelma anywhere. May looks in the 0:27:38.320 --> 0:27:41.920 house's too car garage, So I think I said this before. 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:43.880 On most days May is going to park her own 0:27:43.920 --> 0:27:47.000 car in this garage, so she'll drive up, she'll park 0:27:47.000 --> 0:27:49.280 her car or walk up or whatever, and then she'll 0:27:49.359 --> 0:27:52.680 drive Thelma's car to the bottom of the cliff where 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:55.200 the cafe and the apartment are, so that Thelma doesn't 0:27:55.240 --> 0:27:58.320 have to make this track because she fainted on the 0:27:58.359 --> 0:28:01.439 set of a film, and her mom says, the doctor 0:28:01.560 --> 0:28:04.080 diagnosed her with this heart condition. So what would that be. 0:28:04.320 --> 0:28:07.120 Is that just a slow heart rate or I don't 0:28:07.160 --> 0:28:08.879 know what that would even be. It could be anything, 0:28:08.920 --> 0:28:10.840 I guess. 0:28:10.000 --> 0:28:13.000 Just low blood pressure, you know, you know she stood 0:28:13.080 --> 0:28:15.679 up too quickly, and yeah, so it just depends. But 0:28:15.760 --> 0:28:18.479 of course, you know, the heart condition is something that 0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:21.800 has to be weighed in in terms of you know, 0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:24.960 what happens to Thelma down the road, you know, is 0:28:25.000 --> 0:28:28.760 this something where she could have had a fatal incident 0:28:29.280 --> 0:28:33.159 and is found dead right now? Of course I know 0:28:33.240 --> 0:28:34.800 nothing about what's going on with Elma. 0:28:35.280 --> 0:28:40.320 So in the garage may finds Thelma's total kick ass car. 0:28:41.080 --> 0:28:44.680 And I liked it so much that I included not 0:28:44.920 --> 0:28:46.760 it because I couldn't find a photo of it, but 0:28:46.800 --> 0:28:49.560 I included this type of car, so you probably know 0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:52.480 it because you're smarty about cars. This is a chocolate 0:28:52.520 --> 0:28:55.280 brown Lincoln Phaantin. Have you heard of that? 0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:57.480 Oh yeah, I've heard of that for sure. 0:28:57.760 --> 0:28:59.440 I just wanted to show it to you. I mean, 0:28:59.720 --> 0:29:02.160 this car, and not to talk about her looks, but 0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:04.320 she would have looked gorgeous in this car, and she 0:29:04.320 --> 0:29:07.200 had a driver much of the time. I mean, this 0:29:07.240 --> 0:29:08.760 is what I mean by later on when we have 0:29:08.800 --> 0:29:12.160 witnesses to different things. She would have stood out on 0:29:12.200 --> 0:29:14.840 so many different levels. And I know that this is 0:29:14.880 --> 0:29:16.960 still Hollywood, but this was a beautiful car. 0:29:17.280 --> 0:29:20.280 Yeah. No, that's a head turner. If Thelma's a head turner. 0:29:20.560 --> 0:29:23.600 So of course you know she's you know, she's driving 0:29:23.600 --> 0:29:25.960 around in a vehicle like this. She's not trying to 0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:29.640 be discreet, you know that, she's like here, I am Okay. 0:29:29.760 --> 0:29:32.959 May sees her car. She is alarmed because she couldn't 0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:36.480 find Thelma anywhere else. She looks inside the car, and 0:29:36.480 --> 0:29:40.080 this is where we see Thelma's body. May does not 0:29:40.160 --> 0:29:42.800 examine her at all. She just sees her slumped over, 0:29:43.840 --> 0:29:47.240 and she gets very upset. Of course, she runs down 0:29:47.360 --> 0:29:51.160 to the cafe, flying down those steep steps. She finds 0:29:51.200 --> 0:29:54.800 a general manager. He calls the police. So this is 0:29:54.840 --> 0:29:59.360 all Monday morning, and she was last seen Saturday night 0:29:59.520 --> 0:30:02.640 as far as we know right now. So I can 0:30:02.680 --> 0:30:05.080 tell you what her body looked like. But I also 0:30:05.120 --> 0:30:07.120 can immediately talk about the autopsy too. 0:30:07.240 --> 0:30:07.920 So you tell me. 0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:10.080 I know you like autopsy stuff, but what do you think. 0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:14.200 Yeah, well, let's uh, let's get into the crime scene 0:30:14.320 --> 0:30:19.360 first in terms of understanding her body in context, you know, 0:30:19.480 --> 0:30:21.959 in sits you in the back of this car, and 0:30:22.040 --> 0:30:23.760 then go into the autopsy. 0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:28.560 So she has found slumped over the steering wheel. We 0:30:28.640 --> 0:30:31.920 find out that her nose is broken and she was 0:30:31.960 --> 0:30:36.120 bleeding from the mouth, but police think it's because she 0:30:36.360 --> 0:30:39.640 passed out and hit her face against the steering wheel. 0:30:39.920 --> 0:30:42.239 I think one of the reasons is, this is an 0:30:42.280 --> 0:30:47.479 interesting bit here. May said the garage was closed and 0:30:47.480 --> 0:30:50.200 that when she saw Thelma and she saw, you know, 0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:53.680 a little bit of bleeding and she's laying over the 0:30:53.720 --> 0:30:58.360 steering wheel, that she was unusually red. Her face was 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:01.640 really red. Let's kind of of start there. They're not 0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:05.800 saying trauma, and their immediate response is not this is 0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:08.480 you know, somebody who's been beaten up. But what do 0:31:08.520 --> 0:31:10.240 you kind of think so far the way that I've 0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:12.320 laid it out, or do you need more info? 0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:17.560 Well, I think with sort of the thumbnail sketch, broken nose, 0:31:17.640 --> 0:31:21.040 bleeding out of the mouth, which you know possibly can 0:31:21.120 --> 0:31:23.480 occur as a result of you know, the trauma to 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:28.320 the nose, in terms of evaluating the fracture to the nose, 0:31:28.360 --> 0:31:32.160 you know, is you know, how much damage is truly there? 0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:35.680 Is it consistent with somebody who's just now passes out 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:39.400 and nose hits a hard steering wheel or is there 0:31:39.480 --> 0:31:42.360 more damage to that, And so that'd be something that 0:31:42.400 --> 0:31:46.200 would be determined at autopsy, as well as what other 0:31:46.280 --> 0:31:49.120 injuries she has on her body. You know, the red 0:31:49.640 --> 0:31:53.040 kind of it sounds like her face is flush, and 0:31:53.400 --> 0:31:56.080 you know, there's a variety of reasons why that can occur. 0:31:56.320 --> 0:31:58.480 You know, one of the first things, just due to 0:31:58.480 --> 0:32:00.920 the context of where she's found out in a car 0:32:01.080 --> 0:32:05.840 inside a closed garage, is is it possible that there's 0:32:05.880 --> 0:32:10.520 a carbon monoxide poisoning accidental? Potentially? You know, she was 0:32:10.560 --> 0:32:13.800 sitting in that that car for too long? Is the 0:32:13.800 --> 0:32:18.880 car still running when may you know, enters in? Does 0:32:18.920 --> 0:32:22.240 she detect something's wrong? Is a car completely out of 0:32:22.280 --> 0:32:25.160 gas but the ignition is turd like it's still running? 0:32:25.600 --> 0:32:27.680 You know, then that might suggest that you know, she 0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:31.160 for whatever reason, drove into the garage, closed the garage 0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:35.320 and stayed in there too long and then ultimately succumbed 0:32:35.320 --> 0:32:38.840 to carbon monoxide. So there's that aspect, you know, is 0:32:38.880 --> 0:32:42.400 there potentially does the heart condition weigh in? Is there 0:32:42.400 --> 0:32:47.120 a circulatory type of issue that's causing the red flushing? 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:50.280 And then of course there's there's different acts of islence 0:32:50.520 --> 0:32:53.479 such as strangulation, you know, which could cause that that 0:32:53.520 --> 0:32:56.200 red flushing. So at this point, I think, you know, 0:32:56.240 --> 0:33:00.080 the investigators are, they're evaluating what's going on. It. It 0:33:00.160 --> 0:33:05.840 is unusual to see a homicide victim just seated in 0:33:05.960 --> 0:33:08.680 a car, slumped over the steering wheel, if it's not 0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:12.320 a gunshot victim. You know, we often see that today 0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:16.440 with shootings. But I'm assuming right now she's not a 0:33:16.480 --> 0:33:19.440 gunshot victim or a stabbing victim or something like that. 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:22.480 And so now they're assessing things and reconstructing, and they're 0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:27.400 probably going this very likely could just be an accidental 0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:31.680 death or could be a natural if she had if 0:33:31.680 --> 0:33:34.120 the heart condition weighed in as to the reason why 0:33:34.160 --> 0:33:37.800 she ended up deceased inside this vehicle. 0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:39.880 Yeah, and I think there's a lot of speculation about that. 0:33:40.160 --> 0:33:43.440 Was it the heart condition that contributed to this? Did 0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:46.160 she climb up all of those stairs herself? And then 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:49.120 something happened she got into the car. So let me 0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:51.640 just tell you a couple of facts that are important 0:33:52.240 --> 0:33:54.600 and then we can get to the autop seat. Number One. 0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:59.000 May saw Thelma Saturday night before she went to an event, 0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:02.960 and she said she's wearing the same clothing she was 0:34:03.000 --> 0:34:07.080 wearing a mauve and silver dress and a mink coat 0:34:07.840 --> 0:34:11.880 and lots of expensive jewelry. She had an expensive handbag 0:34:11.920 --> 0:34:15.040 with her. None of it was touched. It's all there, 0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:18.720 so you know at first blush. She's been there since 0:34:19.000 --> 0:34:22.680 Saturday night, early Sunday morning, whenever you know she left 0:34:22.800 --> 0:34:27.520 this event. So they're trying to get a timeline together, 0:34:27.600 --> 0:34:30.479 but that's going to come into questions soon. The other 0:34:30.600 --> 0:34:33.680 note is that police do find the key in the 0:34:33.719 --> 0:34:37.520 ignition to her fancy car. It was turned to the 0:34:37.600 --> 0:34:41.920 on position, but the car was not running. So this 0:34:42.000 --> 0:34:43.400 is out of my pay grade. So I'm just going 0:34:43.480 --> 0:34:44.640 to tell you what it is and you can tell 0:34:44.680 --> 0:34:47.200 me what you think. This is a combustible engine, so 0:34:47.280 --> 0:34:50.239 there is no catalytic converter. I don't even know what 0:34:50.280 --> 0:34:52.520 that was. I didn't until I had to pay for one, 0:34:52.640 --> 0:34:54.320 and then I found out really quick witted. 0:34:54.600 --> 0:34:57.040 Expensive because of the precious metals inside there. 0:34:57.280 --> 0:34:59.239 I mean, I think it's the worst thing you can 0:34:59.280 --> 0:35:01.879 pay for. So I can think my kids for all 0:35:01.880 --> 0:35:05.440 the driving with them with a new catlet converter. He said, 0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:07.160 how did you put this many miles on this car? 0:35:07.239 --> 0:35:10.760 It's only a couple of years old. So the police 0:35:10.800 --> 0:35:13.440 say that this is because the car's engine, because it's 0:35:13.440 --> 0:35:17.800 a combustible engine, needs oxygen to run. So if something 0:35:17.880 --> 0:35:21.520 happens and the car has turned on, once the garage 0:35:21.640 --> 0:35:24.440 is filled up with carbon monoxide, there's no more oxygen 0:35:24.480 --> 0:35:27.279 and the engine would just cut off. Does that sound right? 0:35:27.520 --> 0:35:28.120 Yes, it does. 0:35:28.440 --> 0:35:31.120 What happens now with the engine? First of all, what 0:35:31.200 --> 0:35:32.120 kind of engines do we have? 0:35:32.160 --> 0:35:32.319 Now? 0:35:32.360 --> 0:35:33.920 I know we should know that I should know that. 0:35:34.239 --> 0:35:37.400 It's the same, you know, in terms of for gasoline engines. 0:35:37.920 --> 0:35:41.640 In essence, they're just combustion engines, and so you know, 0:35:41.680 --> 0:35:47.280 they're fundamentally operate the same way as this particular engine, 0:35:47.600 --> 0:35:51.919 just obviously more advanced. You need oxygen for fire. Well, 0:35:51.920 --> 0:35:56.120 that's in essence what happens inside the cylinder of you know, 0:35:56.160 --> 0:35:59.120 one of the chambers within these engines, and you know this, 0:35:59.120 --> 0:36:03.920 this particular car possibly had anywhere from eight to twelve cylinders, 0:36:04.800 --> 0:36:08.520 and there's a spark plug in each cylinder, and then 0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:12.480 there's a source of fuel that sprays into the cylinder, 0:36:13.120 --> 0:36:16.319 and so now you have this gas vapor and then 0:36:16.520 --> 0:36:22.439 as the cylinder comes up and compresses that gas, there's 0:36:22.480 --> 0:36:25.520 a spark from the spark plug that ignites the gas 0:36:25.760 --> 0:36:29.200 and in order for that gas to actually combust to 0:36:29.280 --> 0:36:32.680 produce pressure to force the cylinder down, which ultimately is 0:36:33.080 --> 0:36:37.040 the mechanism that is translated into being able to move 0:36:37.080 --> 0:36:41.640 the vehicle. Once there's no oxygen, that combustion engine can't 0:36:41.680 --> 0:36:45.880 operate anymore. So if that garage filled up with sufficient 0:36:45.960 --> 0:36:49.880 carbon monoxide, I would say, yeah, theoretically, it's possible that 0:36:49.960 --> 0:36:53.360 the engine just died and had been left running for 0:36:53.480 --> 0:36:54.520 a period of time. 0:36:55.239 --> 0:36:58.239 Okay, well, let's keep that in mind, because you know, 0:36:58.320 --> 0:36:59.680 there are a lot of theories that are going to 0:36:59.719 --> 0:37:03.759 be flowing around nineteen thirty five LA. Pretty soon. There 0:37:03.840 --> 0:37:06.359 is someone who comes, a doctor who comes and examines 0:37:06.600 --> 0:37:10.640 her body. His name is JP Sampson. When doctor Sampson 0:37:10.719 --> 0:37:14.279 looks at Thelma's body, he says, she has been dead 0:37:14.400 --> 0:37:19.480 for about twelve hours. Now. I don't know how he 0:37:19.760 --> 0:37:23.080 determines that. I don't think they use liver temperature, but 0:37:23.640 --> 0:37:27.000 maybe it was rigor. But just doing math, let's say 0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:30.160 this happens at nine am. That puts her death at 0:37:30.360 --> 0:37:34.319 nine pm Sunday night. But she's wearing the clothes from 0:37:34.360 --> 0:37:35.120 Saturday night. 0:37:35.680 --> 0:37:37.279 So you know, one of the things I want to 0:37:37.400 --> 0:37:40.680 address about her clothes. You know, may sees her leaving 0:37:40.760 --> 0:37:46.440 Saturday night in those clothes. What we don't know is 0:37:46.560 --> 0:37:52.440 it possible that she stayed in those clothes alive for 0:37:52.680 --> 0:37:56.600 how long period of time? More did she redress into 0:37:56.640 --> 0:37:59.400 those clothes, you know? And those are the clothes she 0:37:59.480 --> 0:38:03.840 came back to Roland's place in this vehicle. So it's 0:38:04.040 --> 0:38:08.960 kind of hard to draw a firm conclusion that whatever 0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:13.800 happened to Thelma happened Saturday night because we just don't 0:38:13.840 --> 0:38:16.960 know anything about her state of dress, and you know 0:38:17.040 --> 0:38:19.239 how long she had those clothes on before she ended 0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:22.719 up dying. So it's interesting it. I would say, what 0:38:22.800 --> 0:38:25.800 you could conclude as well, she did not get back 0:38:25.840 --> 0:38:29.640 to her residence or a location where she had closed 0:38:29.680 --> 0:38:32.440 that she would be wanting to change into, you know, 0:38:32.800 --> 0:38:35.520 that would be part of it. To try to timeline 0:38:35.600 --> 0:38:40.160 exactly when something happened to Thelma based on her dress 0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:41.040 would be tough. 0:38:41.520 --> 0:38:44.040 Yes, I have had times in my youth where I 0:38:44.080 --> 0:38:48.160 have been in the same clothing for six years and 0:38:48.200 --> 0:38:51.239 I wasn't camping, I was living in New York, So yes, 0:38:51.360 --> 0:38:55.280 well we'll see I don't trust the twelve hour timeline either. 0:38:55.320 --> 0:38:58.879 I guess we'll just see how this progresses well. 0:38:58.880 --> 0:39:01.920 And even the pathologist saying she's been dead for twelve hours, 0:39:02.800 --> 0:39:05.080 that's just a rough rough guess. 0:39:05.400 --> 0:39:09.160 So we've got the autopsy. Thelma's brain and organs are 0:39:09.200 --> 0:39:14.200 described in the autopsy report as scarlet red of blood, 0:39:14.600 --> 0:39:19.120 and her body is also discolored red. Her blood is 0:39:19.440 --> 0:39:23.560 found to have a seventy five to eighty percent saturation 0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:25.800 of carbon monoxide, which. 0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:29.280 Is classic, you know, this is when you see somebody 0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:33.680 like this and at autopsy the pathologist is immediately going, okay, 0:39:33.680 --> 0:39:36.320 we've got carbon monoxide. You know, this is even before 0:39:36.360 --> 0:39:40.360 there's any type of toxicology testing going on. It's that 0:39:40.440 --> 0:39:44.120 this is almost diagnostic, you know. And the question is 0:39:44.120 --> 0:39:47.920 is you know, at this point, okay, is this is 0:39:47.960 --> 0:39:52.040 it accidental? Is it natural? Or is there a chance 0:39:52.640 --> 0:39:56.040 that there is violence inflicted on her to a point 0:39:56.080 --> 0:40:00.160 to where she is unconscious and is left inside this 0:40:00.280 --> 0:40:04.000 garage and now the carbon monoxide is building up from 0:40:04.000 --> 0:40:07.040 the running car and then she succumbs to the carbon 0:40:07.080 --> 0:40:11.520 monoxide poisoning. But the reality is is that there was 0:40:11.680 --> 0:40:14.279 a violent act at the hands of another you know, 0:40:14.400 --> 0:40:18.439 so too early to really draw a conclusion, but most 0:40:18.480 --> 0:40:21.520 certainly at this point unless you tell me of other 0:40:21.600 --> 0:40:26.000 significant injuries to her. At this point, carbon monoxide sounds 0:40:26.040 --> 0:40:27.600 like the primary cause of death. 0:40:27.920 --> 0:40:31.839 Yes, and there are no other significant injuries other than 0:40:31.880 --> 0:40:33.759 what I had mentioned before, a little bleeding at the 0:40:33.800 --> 0:40:38.680 mouth and a broken nose, which investigators conclude very quickly 0:40:39.239 --> 0:40:43.360 is because you know, when carbon monoxide started to take effect, 0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:46.080 that her face hit the steering wheel, which would have 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:48.960 been a very heavy steering wheel, would probably or mahoggitting, 0:40:49.000 --> 0:40:50.319 I don't know what it would have been, and broke 0:40:50.360 --> 0:40:53.000 her nose. The question I think that is going to 0:40:53.000 --> 0:40:56.680 come as is this suicide? Is this an accident? How 0:40:56.719 --> 0:40:59.720 would this have been an accident? Or is this something else? 0:40:59.800 --> 0:41:02.880 Because there are a lot of complicated things happening. 0:41:03.040 --> 0:41:09.800 Right now, it appears that the medical findings aren't differentiating 0:41:10.040 --> 0:41:14.439 the manner of death. So there is no sign of strangulation, 0:41:14.719 --> 0:41:18.560 there's no defensive injuries obviously I've already asked, there's no 0:41:18.680 --> 0:41:24.280 stab wounds, no gunshot wounds, etc. So fundamentally, you've got 0:41:24.320 --> 0:41:29.400 a fractured nose, bleeding out of the mouth, and carbon 0:41:29.440 --> 0:41:34.239 monoxide poisoning. Basically, all types of manners of death potentially 0:41:34.280 --> 0:41:38.520 are on the table, though homicide kind of becomes less 0:41:39.080 --> 0:41:42.240 likely but not eliminated. Based on these circumstances. 0:41:42.600 --> 0:41:44.560 I'm going to talk in a little bit about what 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:47.680 she did that night, who she was with, and the 0:41:47.680 --> 0:41:52.360 circumstances about why homicide definitely needs to stay on the table. 0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:56.040 The corner, so there was doctor Sampson, but there's also 0:41:56.160 --> 0:42:00.160 a corner, separate person who said after his examination and 0:42:00.600 --> 0:42:04.680 that Thelma had been dead more like thirty hours when 0:42:04.719 --> 0:42:07.239 she was found, which of course is much closer to 0:42:07.440 --> 0:42:12.560 the Saturday night mark. Again, what's reliable here and what isn't. 0:42:12.920 --> 0:42:15.200 I don't have notes on what they were using. I 0:42:15.239 --> 0:42:17.319 think it was probably rigor. I don't think they were 0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:19.280 using liver temperature at this point. 0:42:19.520 --> 0:42:21.279 You know, rigor would be part of it. You know, 0:42:21.320 --> 0:42:23.719 that's one of the first things that the pathologists are 0:42:23.760 --> 0:42:25.920 going to note in terms of how long the body 0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:28.799 has been dead, you know, the body temperature. You know, 0:42:28.880 --> 0:42:32.640 this was occurring mid December, you know, but you're also 0:42:32.680 --> 0:42:35.959 dealing with la you know, on the coastal front there. 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:39.319 You know, it's maybe seventy degrees in the winter time 0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:41.520 at times. You know, it's not excessively hot, it's not 0:42:41.560 --> 0:42:45.319 excessively cold. My assessment what I would want to be 0:42:45.400 --> 0:42:48.880 taking a look at. You know, they're drawing a conclusion 0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:51.600 that she hit her nose on the steering wheel. If 0:42:51.600 --> 0:42:55.640 that's what happened, you know, you imagine her head going forward. 0:42:56.080 --> 0:43:01.280 She's basically collapsing and probably doesn't revive after that point. Right, So, now, 0:43:01.320 --> 0:43:04.480 are the blood flows out of the nose, the blood 0:43:04.520 --> 0:43:08.440 patterns inside the vehicle consistent with that last movement of 0:43:08.480 --> 0:43:12.000 her body that caused the bleeding to occur, or is 0:43:12.040 --> 0:43:17.600 there blood in discrete locations that would not line up 0:43:17.719 --> 0:43:21.279 with this idea of just slumping forward, as if she 0:43:21.800 --> 0:43:24.359 let's say, somebody punched her in the nose, she gets 0:43:24.440 --> 0:43:27.000 knocked out, and then that person puts her into a 0:43:27.120 --> 0:43:29.959 seated position in the driver's seat, you know, and leaves 0:43:29.960 --> 0:43:33.879 the vehicle running inside this closed garage. That's where now 0:43:33.880 --> 0:43:36.319 you have to start really paying attention to the details. 0:43:36.880 --> 0:43:39.160 And I'm not sure you have those details. 0:43:39.520 --> 0:43:42.080 Well, let's see, we do have a lot of information 0:43:42.120 --> 0:43:44.160 about what she did that night, and you're right, like 0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:47.400 more theories and maybe a little bit more information do 0:43:47.480 --> 0:43:51.479 you think that carbon monoxide poisoning would throw off time 0:43:51.520 --> 0:43:53.399 of death estimations at all or. 0:43:53.600 --> 0:43:57.319 No, generally not. Now, part of what you know we 0:43:57.400 --> 0:44:01.120 look at at a crime scene is lividity. Blood settles 0:44:01.160 --> 0:44:04.439 with gravity. After you die, your heart is no longer pumping, 0:44:04.840 --> 0:44:09.920 and so as Thelma is seated there slumped over, heart stops. 0:44:10.160 --> 0:44:14.680 Blood settles to the lower parts of her body, showing 0:44:14.719 --> 0:44:18.160 the position that she's in. That lividity is something that 0:44:18.280 --> 0:44:20.759 I would be paying attention to to see had she 0:44:20.960 --> 0:44:24.400 laid in a position different than the position that she 0:44:24.560 --> 0:44:29.040 is ultimately found in. Lividity sets after a certain period 0:44:29.040 --> 0:44:32.799 of time, So if somebody has moved prior to the 0:44:32.840 --> 0:44:36.480 lividity setting, then the lividity the blood shifts inside the 0:44:36.480 --> 0:44:40.960 body and so the original lividity pattern is changed. But 0:44:41.080 --> 0:44:45.839 once the lividity pattern sets, when the body's moved from 0:44:45.920 --> 0:44:49.200 the time that they die to the time that they 0:44:49.280 --> 0:44:52.799 ultimately are found, the libidity will show that. And the 0:44:52.920 --> 0:44:56.799 extent of the lividity is possibly something the pathologists may 0:44:57.000 --> 0:44:59.720 be relying upon to get a better sense in terms 0:44:59.760 --> 0:45:03.840 of of how long somebody's been dead under select circumstances, 0:45:04.120 --> 0:45:07.680 the carbon monoxide poisoning can make it tougher to see 0:45:07.960 --> 0:45:12.000 the faint lividity aspects just because of the coloration due 0:45:12.040 --> 0:45:17.359 to the carbon monoxide. Various decomposational processes are occurring, and 0:45:17.440 --> 0:45:20.840 if she's been dead for thirty hours, it's possible you 0:45:20.880 --> 0:45:23.880 could start to see some of like her veins become 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:29.720 darker as the bacteria are starting to decompose the blood 0:45:29.760 --> 0:45:33.400 inside the veins, they become very prominent looking. This is 0:45:33.400 --> 0:45:37.719 what we call marbling, and that possibly can occur within 0:45:37.760 --> 0:45:40.600 that thirty hour period of time. Or you could start 0:45:40.600 --> 0:45:43.080 to see the dissension of the you know, the bloating 0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:45.680 of the abdomen, you know, as the gases from the 0:45:46.239 --> 0:45:49.719 gut bacteria start to build up, or you get a 0:45:49.719 --> 0:45:53.600 greenish tinge to the abdomen. You know, this is indicating 0:45:53.640 --> 0:45:56.279 that she's probably been dead longer than twelve hours. So 0:45:56.400 --> 0:46:01.640 the pathologist, if he's doing proper documentation in his autopsy report, 0:46:01.680 --> 0:46:04.080 if he's saying she's been dead for thirty hours, then 0:46:04.120 --> 0:46:07.799 he should be listing the characteristics that he is observing 0:46:08.200 --> 0:46:09.440 to come to that opinion. 0:46:10.000 --> 0:46:13.920 Well, as we wrap up this first episode, I'm going 0:46:13.960 --> 0:46:17.000 to talk about why this is a two parter because 0:46:17.520 --> 0:46:21.879 there were a lot of suspicions about her death. There 0:46:21.880 --> 0:46:24.760 were a lot of things that investigators thought were really odd, 0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:27.440 and her mother really thought was odd. So Number one, 0:46:27.480 --> 0:46:31.319 we've already noted that her car is parked in the 0:46:31.360 --> 0:46:34.640 garage at the top of this massive hill, and I 0:46:34.680 --> 0:46:37.680 will give you a hint for the next episode. She 0:46:38.360 --> 0:46:42.200 did not drive it. She had a driver who took 0:46:42.239 --> 0:46:45.040 her to an event and then took her and dropped 0:46:45.040 --> 0:46:48.640 her off at three am at her apartment. Oh right, 0:46:48.880 --> 0:46:51.920 And her car had been at Roland's house up the 0:46:52.040 --> 0:46:55.240 hill all day. She just didn't want to deal with driving, 0:46:55.239 --> 0:46:57.400 and she had a driver, you know, take her places 0:46:57.400 --> 0:47:01.120 that day. Her mother says that there is no way 0:47:01.360 --> 0:47:03.840 at three in the morning she climbed the steps that 0:47:03.920 --> 0:47:06.439 would have just taken her out completely. She had never 0:47:06.480 --> 0:47:09.719 done it before to get up to Roland's house. How 0:47:09.760 --> 0:47:12.640 did she get up to Roland's house? And she's also 0:47:12.680 --> 0:47:15.839 had some threats in the last couple of months, so 0:47:16.120 --> 0:47:18.040 there's a lot happening with this story. 0:47:18.520 --> 0:47:20.239 Yeah, so the plot thickens. 0:47:20.600 --> 0:47:27.359 Mary stole that from some hard boiled detective novel you read. 0:47:28.200 --> 0:47:30.360 Have you ever said that in real life? The plot thickens. 0:47:30.520 --> 0:47:32.879 No, not that I can recall except now. 0:47:33.719 --> 0:47:37.040 Okay, So next week we will talk more about that 0:47:37.120 --> 0:47:41.760 absolutely fantastic Thelmatod and the tragedy that is her death, 0:47:41.840 --> 0:47:43.080 whatever happened to her. 0:47:43.640 --> 0:47:45.640 Hopefully, by the end of the next episode we will 0:47:45.680 --> 0:47:46.680 get to the bottom of this. 0:47:47.160 --> 0:47:49.120 I hope so too. I will see you next week. 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:50.920 All right, kay, thank you. Thanks. 0:47:55.560 --> 0:47:58.160 This has been an exactly right production for. 0:47:58.200 --> 0:48:00.960 Our sources and show notes go to a exactly wrightmedia 0:48:01.040 --> 0:48:03.480 dot com slash Buried Bones sources. 0:48:03.680 --> 0:48:06.000 Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi. 0:48:06.320 --> 0:48:10.560 Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson. 0:48:10.840 --> 0:48:13.120 Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 0:48:13.400 --> 0:48:15.680 Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 0:48:15.920 --> 0:48:17.960 Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 0:48:18.200 --> 0:48:22.360 Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer. 0:48:22.640 --> 0:48:26.000 You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 0:48:26.120 --> 0:48:27.280 Buried Bones Pod. 0:48:27.719 --> 0:48:30.280 Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 0:48:30.280 --> 0:48:32.319 Age story of murder and the race to decode the 0:48:32.320 --> 0:48:34.400 criminal mind, is available now. 0:48:34.440 --> 0:48:38.680 And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked My Life Solving America's 0:48:38.719 --> 0:48:40.799 cold cases is also available now. 0:48:41.080 --> 0:48:44.839 Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:48:44.920 --> 0:48:46.839 or wherever you get your podcasts.