Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the
Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.
Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's
Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.
Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most
Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.
Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring
Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.
Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime
Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.
Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.
Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.
Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Akay, how's it going with you?
Speaker 1: It's going well, And I'll tell you why. I want
Speaker 1: to tell you about an episode that I don't know
Speaker 1: if you've heard yet, that I recorded for Wicked Words.
Speaker 1: I feel like I've interviewed some big names, including you
Speaker 1: of course, like a David Grhan and you know, all
Speaker 1: of these I feel like, really big nonfiction folks. And
Speaker 1: then across my email comes do you want an interview
Speaker 1: with Marcia Clark? Oh? Okay, So I was just awestruck,
Speaker 1: I really was, and she could not be sweeter and
Speaker 1: the interview is fantastic. You should listen to it. It
Speaker 1: is not about OJ Okay, nor did she want. I
Speaker 1: don't know if she ever wants to talk about OJ
Speaker 1: Simpson ever again, she like she says, she sort of
Speaker 1: blocked it out of her mind. Essentially, Where were you
Speaker 1: when that case was going on? Were you in Northern
Speaker 1: California or Central or where were you?
Speaker 2: No? I was. I was working for the Sheriff's Crime
Speaker 2: Lab at the time. In fact, I was some following
Speaker 2: the case. It was a big deal in forensics because
Speaker 2: of all the evidence, particularly DNA that was being presented,
Speaker 2: and so we were following it pretty closely. In fact,
Speaker 2: I actually faxed information down to the LAPD Crime Lab
Speaker 2: because they're krim lists. Obviously didn't know what he was
Speaker 2: talking about when it came to crime scene photography, and
Speaker 2: the defense was really exploiting him on the stand, and
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, you need to really understand how
Speaker 2: focal length with camera lenses can really change the front
Speaker 2: to rear aspect ratios. So I compiled all this information
Speaker 2: and faxed it down, But I distinctly remember that case.
Speaker 2: Of course, I remember Marcia Clark in fact, I've spoken
Speaker 2: with Marcia over the phone. She was getting involved with
Speaker 2: TV production and I'm not sure if she still is
Speaker 2: or not, but you know, we had chatted a little bit.
Speaker 2: Then I actually sat next to Christopher Darden for dinner.
Speaker 2: I think it was an award ceremony. I had a crime,
Speaker 2: yeh know, So I got to chat with him a
Speaker 2: little bit. Real nice guy. And of course, you know,
Speaker 2: they have this whole OJ trial hanging over their heads
Speaker 2: for you know, forever in essence, you know, but I
Speaker 2: most certainly understand sort of how things kind of went
Speaker 2: awry for them, and don't put a whole heck of
Speaker 2: a lot of personal blame in either one of them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I read there was an article and I think
Speaker 1: the headline was something like Marcia Clark has been absolved,
Speaker 1: and it was kind of how she's gone from I
Speaker 1: don't remember her being as villainized as you know, this
Speaker 1: magazine and a lot of other media have said. Back
Speaker 1: in ninety five, I was too busy working in a
Speaker 1: news station to really even pay attention to all that.
Speaker 1: But now she's become this feminist icon, which she is.
Speaker 1: After talking to her, it is probably my favorite interview
Speaker 1: of all the interviews, sorry everybody else that I've including you,
Speaker 1: I've ever done on Wicked Words, because she's so engaging
Speaker 1: and much like you. You know, she had the case
Speaker 1: she had Oj Simpson, you had the Golden State Killer,
Speaker 1: and she certainly could have taken money back from a
Speaker 1: big book deal that she had and then just sort
Speaker 1: of gone off. But she has just stayed so active.
Speaker 1: She has novels, She's got now two nonfiction books, and
Speaker 1: I was talking to her about the latest one that
Speaker 1: set in nineteen fifty three. As you said, she does
Speaker 1: TV stuff all the time, so she really has stayed active,
Speaker 1: and it was just so interesting to talk with her
Speaker 1: about the case that she was talking about on my show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've completely lost track of her, to
Speaker 2: be frank, you know, so I didn't know. I don't
Speaker 2: know what she's been up to. So this is the
Speaker 2: first tim hearing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked a little bit about the misogyny that
Speaker 1: was happening, which was pervasive, of course, and she was
Speaker 1: told to soften her hair and she was told to
Speaker 1: wear you know, kind of less I guess masculine was
Speaker 1: the insinuation clothing, which she said, this is what I
Speaker 1: wear to court. This isn't masculine to me to use
Speaker 1: a softer tone. So there was so much stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: looking back on it, she just said, it just takes
Speaker 1: so long to process things like that. That's this is
Speaker 1: stuff that you're just trying to do your job, and
Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing that happens. She was investigating
Speaker 1: a case from fifty three that the district attorney at
Speaker 1: the time was heading up. This case. It was a
Speaker 1: huge murder trial of a botched home invasion, and she
Speaker 1: said that this district attorney was an icon to her
Speaker 1: when she was working in la as a prosecutor. Everybody
Speaker 1: knew who this guy was long after he was dead.
Speaker 1: And then she said, I looked in the case and
Speaker 1: it was awful. He was awful. He did so many
Speaker 1: legal things then and now, and she said, it's really
Speaker 1: dispiriting to have this person in your head like who
Speaker 1: you're trying to strive to be. And then when she
Speaker 1: actually looked and worked one of his cases, you know,
Speaker 1: sixty seventy years later, to just see how many times
Speaker 1: he failed and it was just really disheartening for her.
Speaker 1: It was interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because I'm thinking nineteen fifty three. So we're
Speaker 2: talking just a handful of years after the Black Dohlia case. Yeah,
Speaker 2: out there in LA you know. So that kind of
Speaker 2: puts some perspective because I've kind of dug into the
Speaker 2: Black Dolly a little bit from the investigator side, you know,
Speaker 2: and of course law enforcement was you know, so I
Speaker 2: don't know primorgial, if you will, relative to today in
Speaker 2: terms of how they handled investigations and crime scenes and forensics.
Speaker 2: That case, of course never went to trial, but I
Speaker 2: can only imagine you know, her assessment of sort of
Speaker 2: the legal mind that she held in great and high
Speaker 2: regard and now seeing oh well maybe not so.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, it was putting plants in jail cells with
Speaker 1: a young woman, you know, not taking an account into
Speaker 1: her background, and then you know, ultimately issuing a death
Speaker 1: sentence to a woman who was executed for essentially, you know,
Speaker 1: being a decoy. And that was it. And I said,
Speaker 1: would you do that now? And she said no, Now,
Speaker 1: they're accessory to murder, accessory after the factor, all these things,
Speaker 1: you know. But she got looped in with the other
Speaker 1: two robbers who ended up killing somebody, and she just
Speaker 1: said it was a little stunning, and the district attorney
Speaker 1: who she respected so much, could have said, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of mitigating circumstances with leniency. She was saying, with leniency,
Speaker 1: and he didn't do it. I mean, in this young
Speaker 1: woman really did very little. She knew something was going
Speaker 1: to happen, but she didn't suspect a murder would happen
Speaker 1: at all. And then you're executing a mother of three
Speaker 1: or four people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and it really underscores, you know, the
Speaker 2: power that the elected DA has, you know, And I've
Speaker 2: been in the room where the death penalty is being
Speaker 2: debated for a particular case, and of course that's led
Speaker 2: by the elected DA, and then the prosecutor who's handling
Speaker 2: the case presents the case. And now you have very
Speaker 2: senior prosecutors chief of investigations. I happen to be in
Speaker 2: a couple of these during the course of my career
Speaker 2: at the DA's office, and today it is taken very
Speaker 2: seriously and most certainly you know this scenario you're talking
Speaker 2: about where sounds like she was an accessory in California.
Speaker 2: Maybe this felony murder aspect is what they used to
Speaker 2: go after her, but in essence to apply the death
Speaker 2: penalty as if she's the one that's actually committing the murder.
Speaker 2: You know that sounds way over the top.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean he nicknamed her the defendant Bloody
Speaker 1: babs Oh in the courtroom in front of the jury,
Speaker 1: and I said, is that Lee? I feel like every
Speaker 1: other question was is that legal? Is that legal now?
Speaker 1: Is that legal now? And every answer was like no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: And that's the issue.
Speaker 2: Well the defense would object. You know, that's prejudicial, that's
Speaker 2: influencing the jury.
Speaker 1: It was startling to me. So anyway, Marcia Clark, I
Speaker 1: am a huge fan. And I even said it from
Speaker 1: the beginning. I said, I don't think I use the
Speaker 1: word fangirl, but I'm really going to try to not gush.
Speaker 1: And she said, well, thank you. I listened to your show,
Speaker 1: so very cool. Marcia Clark is a celebrity in my
Speaker 1: little world of celebrities. So I thought you'd find that interesting.
Speaker 1: And we are hanging out in southern California in the
Speaker 1: Pacific Palisades Act for this story. But this is not
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three, this is nineteen thirty five. To me,
Speaker 1: I think you're going to find this interesting enough. We're
Speaker 1: making this a double and it involves Hollywood and an
Speaker 1: actress who I found so interesting that I actually watched
Speaker 1: one of her films from nineteen thirty I think it
Speaker 1: was from thirty three or so. There's a lot happening
Speaker 1: with this story.
Speaker 2: No, it sounds sounds cool. Now. I don't think I've
Speaker 2: ever been in Pacific Palisades, but of course I'm very
Speaker 2: much aware of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, of course, especially with the fires earlier this year,
Speaker 1: and I had been thinking about that. So I feel
Speaker 1: like every time I have a case where I see
Speaker 1: that phrase of that neighborhood, Pacific Palisades, I'm always going
Speaker 1: to think about the fire. So we are really going
Speaker 1: far back where we're looking at ninety years ago. So
Speaker 1: let's go ahead and set the scene so we are
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty five. Remind me when Black Dahlia happened,
Speaker 1: because I actually have not looked at the case at all.
Speaker 1: I would love for you and I to talk about it,
Speaker 1: and I think, will You're going to have to bring
Speaker 1: it up if you think it reminds you of this
Speaker 1: in any way.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, Black Dahlia was late forties. I believe it
Speaker 2: was nineteen forty seven. But right now I'm a little
Speaker 2: fuzzy on the exact year that it happened. I actually interviewed.
Speaker 2: There was an author, this Steve Hodell, who's former LAPD homicide, robbery, homicide,
Speaker 2: and he's written several books on the Black Dahlia and
Speaker 2: he's claiming his father is the offender in the Black
Speaker 2: Dahlia case. I'm not convinced, let's just put it that way.
Speaker 2: But it is a case that I'm highly interested in.
Speaker 2: And I actually did reach out to a professional friend
Speaker 2: at lada's office saying I'd be willing to help. And
Speaker 2: basically I got back from LAPD and the lada's office
Speaker 2: well not at this time.
Speaker 1: They have other priorities from something that was eighty years ago.
Speaker 1: I guess you're right. It was in forty seven. Black
Speaker 1: Dahlia was in forty seven.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, basically they said that they were looking at
Speaker 2: some things from the case, you know, So it sounds
Speaker 2: like they have an interest in pursuing it. But of
Speaker 2: course a nineteen forty seven case will take the back
Speaker 2: burner when anything else pops up.
Speaker 1: Well, this is a confusing case. I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's a cold case. So this is nineteen thirty five
Speaker 1: the morning of Monday, December sixteenth. There is a housekeeper
Speaker 1: named May and she's a little bit more of an assistant,
Speaker 1: I think, to an actress movie star. Really, I'm not
Speaker 1: even gonna say actress movie star named Thelma Todd. And
Speaker 1: you know, I really was curious about Thelma. I told you,
Speaker 1: I'll watch one of her movies and I would say
Speaker 1: movie star. I mean, she really has a presence. She
Speaker 1: is very well known. And I'm going to show you
Speaker 1: a picture of her shortly, which sometimes I show you,
Speaker 1: you know, the people who are involved. Sometimes I don't.
Speaker 1: If I think it's relevant, you know, I'll show it
Speaker 1: to you and it'll be relevant, I think in this case.
Speaker 1: So her housekeeper shows up. She is at a house
Speaker 1: in the Pacific Palisades. As I told you, this is
Speaker 1: a neighborhood of la If nobody knows that. It's a
Speaker 1: seaside community that over the past decade or so has
Speaker 1: emerged as a secluded neighborhood for movie stars and studio executives.
Speaker 1: And they build these incredible Mediterranean style homes so they
Speaker 1: can get away from the hustle and bustle of Hollywood.
Speaker 1: It's very, very hilly, so the housekeeper May works for
Speaker 1: twenty nine year old Thelma Todd. She is a movie star,
Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna jump right to it. She's our victim.
Speaker 1: I think I want to give you kind of a
Speaker 1: lot of context about her upfront, because I do think
Speaker 1: it's relevant, especially with witnesses coming up. So she is
Speaker 1: not a small time actress. She was in one hundred
Speaker 1: and twenty feature films, feature films and a lot of
Speaker 1: shorts over the last nine years. So she starred with
Speaker 1: names you're going to recognize, right, Buster Keaton, the Marx Brothers,
Speaker 1: Laurel and Harty, and then a whole list of people
Speaker 1: who I'm pretty sure are famous, but I had not
Speaker 1: heard of. She was slapstick. That was specialty, and that's
Speaker 1: why I wanted to watch one of her films. So
Speaker 1: there's a film called The ten Man and it's a
Speaker 1: short and it was really good. I watched it on
Speaker 1: YouTube and she is very lucy, of I love Lucy.
Speaker 1: She's paired up with a woman in the scene that
Speaker 1: I was watching. You know, they're very very lucy and ethyl,
Speaker 1: and so I watched it before I really dug into
Speaker 1: the story, just because any opportunity I know you do
Speaker 1: this too. Any opportunity I have to feel like I
Speaker 1: have a deeper connection with our victim, I wanted to
Speaker 1: take and so, you know, it just kind of left
Speaker 1: me sad more than anything, but sad's appropriate when you're
Speaker 1: looking into an investigation. Also, I assume, I know, you
Speaker 1: want to know everything about the victim. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: this movie that I watched was relevant to this case.
Speaker 1: I actually know it it wasn't, but I just felt
Speaker 1: like I really wanted to see. Do you feel like
Speaker 1: that too?
Speaker 2: Well? You know, with the cases that I work, you know,
Speaker 2: one of the first things that I do is try
Speaker 2: to learn as much about the victim as I possibly can.
Speaker 2: You know, and I've said this over and over, victimology
Speaker 2: is huge. You know, so who the victim is, what
Speaker 2: the victim is up to, you know where the victim
Speaker 2: is going. You know, all these circumstances surrounding the victim
Speaker 2: sometimes can lead to the investigation to determine who's the
Speaker 2: one that's the offender, who's the one that's responsible for
Speaker 2: let's say, if it's a homicide. So that's that's important,
Speaker 2: you know for the cases that I primarily focused in on.
Speaker 2: You know, out of the sixties and the seventies. Oftentimes
Speaker 2: I didn't have video of the victims like nowadays. You know,
Speaker 2: if somebody ends up being a victim, there's all this
Speaker 2: social media stuff that's been posted, and you can really
Speaker 2: see the victim in life. In this case, you know,
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty five with Thelma Todd. You know, this is
Speaker 2: probably an unusual circumstance where now you know, a homicide
Speaker 2: victim you can actually see in life. Now she's portraying somebody.
Speaker 2: She's an actress, right, so it's not necessarily her and
Speaker 2: her personality, but it's still a living person that you know,
Speaker 2: ended up dying for one reason or another.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing about Thelma that I think would occur
Speaker 1: with any Hollywood actress or actor, or anybody who's well
Speaker 1: known as this would be somebody who strangers would recognize.
Speaker 1: You know, we're often talking about that. In all of
Speaker 1: my cases, it feels like I hear the same thing
Speaker 1: over and over again, especially in the eighteen hundreds. It
Speaker 1: looks like that guy, Yeah, that guy looked like your suspect.
Speaker 1: But Thelma Todd was and I'm going to show you
Speaker 1: the photo in a second, Thelma Todd would have stood
Speaker 1: out even in Pacific Palisades at this time. So that's
Speaker 1: what makes to me this story really interesting too.
Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like she was a highly successful actor,
Speaker 2: you know, so she was celebrity famous. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: the name is tickling my brain, you know, but I'm
Speaker 2: not picturing who she is.
Speaker 1: Well you can picture her now and this is a headshot.
Speaker 1: Let me know what you think.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. One of the things that I do that
Speaker 2: people might think is somewhat strange. There's a YouTube channel
Speaker 2: called Hollywood Graveyard and it's very well done. And this
Speaker 2: guy he goes to the various cemeteries around and he's
Speaker 2: now doing it all over the world, but he started
Speaker 2: out there in the LA area, and he, you know,
Speaker 2: tells stories about the various celebrities that are buried or
Speaker 2: interred in some manner at these various cemeteries. And I
Speaker 2: believe that he's covered Thelma Todd if she's out there,
Speaker 2: that she looks very familiar.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Gene Harlowe was considered the original bombshell, and
Speaker 1: bombshell now I think would be considered an insult for
Speaker 1: a woman, you know, dismissive and really concentrating on her looks,
Speaker 1: but Thelma Todd was in that category for Hollywood in
Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties. She was definitely considered the blonde bombshell.
Speaker 1: I'm going to skip right over that and just say
Speaker 1: she was an excellent actress, obviously incredibly success and she
Speaker 1: was also somebody who had businesses. And that plays into
Speaker 1: it a little bit here too. Where we are when
Speaker 1: all this stuff starts to happen with Thelma is at
Speaker 1: the time of her death, she was shooting a movie,
Speaker 1: and she was starring in two, how roach films that
Speaker 1: were about to be released. One was called All American Toothache.
Speaker 1: I watched part of that, and another one was called
Speaker 1: Bohemian Girl, and that's on my list. So she lives
Speaker 1: in an apartment above the restaurant that she owns. She
Speaker 1: runs this place. It's called Thelma Todd's Sidewalk Cafe, and
Speaker 1: it's on what we now call the Pacific Coast Highway,
Speaker 1: right on the ocean. So this is sort of her
Speaker 1: retirement plan. And she was one of the very first
Speaker 1: celebrities to sort of use her brand, you know, put
Speaker 1: her actual name on a cafe rather than just calling
Speaker 1: it the sidewalk Cafe. She put her name on it,
Speaker 1: and that was not usual. So that's what we mean
Speaker 1: by she was sort of innovative and somebody who really
Speaker 1: wanted to be aggressive. Writing that at age twenty nine
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, she could have been not far
Speaker 1: another decade off of her career. Unfortunately, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but she was planning ahead. So now we've got a
Speaker 1: Hollywood actress who also seems to have some money, and
Speaker 1: she has an investment in a business and is well known.
Speaker 1: So that's where we stand right now.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, So in essence, this celebrity aspect is of
Speaker 2: course going to draw attention and just from her, you know,
Speaker 2: the prolific nature of the number of films she's been in.
Speaker 2: You know, people that may have bad intent of course,
Speaker 2: are going to assume she's got a lot of money,
Speaker 2: and it sounds like with some of the business aspects
Speaker 2: she's utilizing her money wisely. So she even has more
Speaker 2: money than maybe the average actress at that time. Yep.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about her as a person. So May
Speaker 1: the housekeeper wants to find out where Thelma is, but
Speaker 1: she also kind of understands that Thelma is a young
Speaker 1: woman who likes to go out a lot. She stays
Speaker 1: out late at night. She might not come home, and
Speaker 1: so I don't think she's particularly alarmed just yet. It's
Speaker 1: not out of character for her to sleep away from home,
Speaker 1: especially on a weekend. She has a really active social life.
Speaker 1: And we have some more details on water social life
Speaker 1: was like coming up, May looks through this apartment, there's
Speaker 1: no one there. Then she goes to the house up
Speaker 1: the hill, and this is where Thelma stays. Sometimes she
Speaker 1: is not there either. Now here is just sort of
Speaker 1: a theoretical question. I guess May has not decided to
Speaker 1: call the police yet, and you know, I know it's
Speaker 1: because she's thinking in her head, well, she doesn't have
Speaker 1: to report to me when she's doing what and when.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, at what point
Speaker 1: should somebody call the police? Is if somebody has not
Speaker 1: come home and it's completely out of their character, I
Speaker 1: just don't know what at what point do you sort
Speaker 1: of draw that line. It's intimidating to call the police, Paul,
Speaker 1: to me, at least, because you know, if somebody walks
Speaker 1: through the door, you feel stupid. You have to explain stuff.
Speaker 1: So I think probably a lot of people feel like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can see where there would be some reservation.
Speaker 2: You know, it's so variable as to when somebody should
Speaker 2: call the police. You know. Here with May, it sounds like,
Speaker 2: I mean, you described her as a housekeeper, but it
Speaker 2: sounds like she was more of a like an assistant yea,
Speaker 2: you know, helping Thelma with all her day in and
Speaker 2: day out activities, coordinating things, et cetera. So more of
Speaker 2: like an executive assistant. And so I would say, you know,
Speaker 2: under that set of circumstances, you know, it sounds like
Speaker 2: Thelma not coming back to the apartment that particular night.
Speaker 1: It's a Sunday night, and you know, we're going to
Speaker 1: find out that she was last seen Saturday. Okay, So
Speaker 1: as far as May new, Thelma went out, and I'll
Speaker 1: tell you with who in a little bit Saturday night.
Speaker 1: She hasn't talked to her since. And it's Monday morning,
Speaker 1: and she I think she's thinking, well, I don't know,
Speaker 1: because it's been Sunday and Monday. I'm surprised she's not
Speaker 1: here Monday morning because she would have been working at
Speaker 1: the cafe and doing stuff with the cafe.
Speaker 2: I would say, you know, May's insight into what Thelma's
Speaker 2: normal routine would be because of May's position with Thelma,
Speaker 2: where she's now seeing Thelma is not doing what she
Speaker 2: normally would, you know, now it's stepping outside the routine
Speaker 2: depending on like if Thelma is not showing up at
Speaker 2: the restaurant and the restaurant ends up having to be
Speaker 2: closed or whatever, you know, or Thelma has some sort
Speaker 2: of meeting with a network executive or whatever it is,
Speaker 2: and May's going Thelma wouldn't do this now at this point,
Speaker 2: then there should be concerned, Yeah, because now this is
Speaker 2: outside of the victimology that we know of for Thelma
Speaker 2: that May knows for Thelman. And I would say that's
Speaker 2: kind of the same for any time somebody goes missing.
Speaker 2: You know, law enforcement needs to do a better job
Speaker 2: listening to the families because the families go, this isn't right, right,
Speaker 2: But oftentimes they're reporting an adult missing, and so many
Speaker 2: times when that happens, law enforcement, you know, goes, well,
Speaker 2: this person has just left and they have an absolute
Speaker 2: right to leave, and we're not going to spend resources
Speaker 2: to try to track that person down until there's a
Speaker 2: set of circumstances in which now we think there's an
Speaker 2: endangered aspect to this missing adult. But with Thelma right now,
Speaker 2: it seems like May is recognizing Thelma would not normally
Speaker 2: be missing at this particular time during the day.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, so May knows there are a few more places
Speaker 1: she can check. She's not in the apartment down below,
Speaker 1: She's not up the hill at this place, and this
Speaker 1: is a big hill too, you know where she would
Speaker 1: kind of go back and forth between staying at the
Speaker 1: house at the top of the hill staying in her apartment.
Speaker 1: So May decides she needs to look a few more
Speaker 1: places before we talk about, you know where else she looks.
Speaker 1: I want to say that the reason that Thelma stays
Speaker 1: at the house on the hill sometimes is that she's
Speaker 1: been dating a movie director for quite a while. His
Speaker 1: name is Roland West, and he's the one who owns
Speaker 1: that house. Nobody's at this house, and May has apparently
Speaker 1: a key to be able to get in Roland and Thelma.
Speaker 1: This is where things get a little complicated. Roland and
Speaker 1: Thelma own the apartment above the restaurant together, but they
Speaker 1: have separate bedrooms which are divided by a sliding wooden door,
Speaker 1: and Roland is still technically married to another actress named
Speaker 1: jul Carmen. Jewel is not a big Hollywood star. She's
Speaker 1: a small time actress and it sounds like her career
Speaker 1: acting might be somewhat over. So she is married to Roland,
Speaker 1: and technically, while Thelma owns part of the restaurant Thelma
Speaker 1: Todd's Cafe, Roland and Jewel together own part of it. Also,
Speaker 1: it's a little murky with this whole relation ship thing
Speaker 1: is like, but it doesn't sound like there have been
Speaker 1: public blowups. They're not in the press. It seems like
Speaker 1: whatever is happening seems kind of cordial in a way,
Speaker 1: or maybe they've worked out some kind of an agreement.
Speaker 1: But now you've got Thelma involved with another Hollywood actress
Speaker 1: and then a director, and everybody seems to be kind
Speaker 1: of sharing residences. It kind of gets odd after this, Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, of course, you know, this sounds like the
Speaker 2: typical lover's triangle, you know, in which you could potentially
Speaker 2: have jealousies arise. And it really does come down to,
Speaker 2: you know, what does Jewel, Roland's wife know about his
Speaker 2: relationship with Thelma. Is this something that she has accepted,
Speaker 2: you know? So of course, early investigations into the victimology,
Speaker 2: and once this is found out, then it's you know,
Speaker 2: talking to Roland, talking to Jewel and go, okay, what's
Speaker 2: going on here? You know? Is this something that's just
Speaker 2: a an open type of marriage and this was an
Speaker 2: accepted relationship. There's financial aspects that bind the three together
Speaker 2: up and beyond the relationships, you know, with the ownership
Speaker 2: of the restaurant, et cetera. So that's that's interesting.
Speaker 1: What do you think about the separate bedrooms thing? Is
Speaker 1: that surprising to you? Knowing he's married, and I do
Speaker 1: think Jewel stays there.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't think, you know, I'm not
Speaker 2: overly surprised by that. I think it just depends on
Speaker 2: what Thelma and Roland's relationship really is like, you know,
Speaker 2: and it could just be a convenience aspect, you know,
Speaker 2: whether maybe these these rooms above the restaurant are very small,
Speaker 2: you know, or they just prefer to sleep separately when
Speaker 2: they're not engaging together. You know. I don't know, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't put a lot of weight on that right now,
Speaker 2: you know, I think just the dynamics of the Thelma,
Speaker 2: Roland and Jewel triangle, of course, is a red flag
Speaker 2: at least at this stage.
Speaker 1: Okay, tell me tell you about the connection and how
Speaker 1: you would travel from the apartment, which is by the ocean,
Speaker 1: up to this monster hill to get to Roland's beautiful house.
Speaker 1: The restaurant and the apartment are directly downhill from Roland's house.
Speaker 1: And I will have two incredibly confusing maps for you
Speaker 1: in just a few minutes. And thank you for You're
Speaker 1: welcome for that. Sometimes I think that these are awful maps,
Speaker 1: and then you look at them and go, well, this
Speaker 1: is the best thing I've ever seen, Kate. Thank you
Speaker 1: bring me more of these terrible maps, so we'll see
Speaker 1: what you say. But to get from the apartment or
Speaker 1: the cafe up to Roland's place in a car, there
Speaker 1: are a lot of little hairpin turns that you would
Speaker 1: have to get to. It's not easy. It's not a
Speaker 1: straight shot. And then if you're going by foot, it
Speaker 1: would have been a hill of a climb. It's several
Speaker 1: steep staircases in the hillside. Thelma, and I'll tell you
Speaker 1: a little bit more about this in a second had
Speaker 1: developed a heart can and May used to drive her
Speaker 1: up in her car to get to the top. If
Speaker 1: she wanted to spend the night at Roland's house, and
Speaker 1: then Thelma would drive down or maybe May would walk up,
Speaker 1: and it didn't seem like a huge deal for May,
Speaker 1: but it was substantial. I don't know if you want
Speaker 1: to see that now, but it does come into play
Speaker 1: about Thelma and how she would have gone from one
Speaker 1: place to the other if she had a heart condition,
Speaker 1: or we could get to her what happens to her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get to let's get to sort of the
Speaker 2: heart of the matter, and then we can expand out
Speaker 2: from there.
Speaker 1: There's no sign of Thelma anywhere. May looks in the
Speaker 1: house's too car garage, So I think I said this before.
Speaker 1: On most days May is going to park her own
Speaker 1: car in this garage, so she'll drive up, she'll park
Speaker 1: her car or walk up or whatever, and then she'll
Speaker 1: drive Thelma's car to the bottom of the cliff where
Speaker 1: the cafe and the apartment are, so that Thelma doesn't
Speaker 1: have to make this track because she fainted on the
Speaker 1: set of a film, and her mom says, the doctor
Speaker 1: diagnosed her with this heart condition. So what would that be.
Speaker 1: Is that just a slow heart rate or I don't
Speaker 1: know what that would even be. It could be anything,
Speaker 1: I guess.
Speaker 2: Just low blood pressure, you know, you know she stood
Speaker 2: up too quickly, and yeah, so it just depends. But
Speaker 2: of course, you know, the heart condition is something that
Speaker 2: has to be weighed in in terms of you know,
Speaker 2: what happens to Thelma down the road, you know, is
Speaker 2: this something where she could have had a fatal incident
Speaker 2: and is found dead right now? Of course I know
Speaker 2: nothing about what's going on with Elma.
Speaker 1: So in the garage may finds Thelma's total kick ass car.
Speaker 1: And I liked it so much that I included not
Speaker 1: it because I couldn't find a photo of it, but
Speaker 1: I included this type of car, so you probably know
Speaker 1: it because you're smarty about cars. This is a chocolate
Speaker 1: brown Lincoln Phaantin. Have you heard of that?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've heard of that for sure.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to show it to you. I mean,
Speaker 1: this car, and not to talk about her looks, but
Speaker 1: she would have looked gorgeous in this car, and she
Speaker 1: had a driver much of the time. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is what I mean by later on when we have
Speaker 1: witnesses to different things. She would have stood out on
Speaker 1: so many different levels. And I know that this is
Speaker 1: still Hollywood, but this was a beautiful car.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that's a head turner. If Thelma's a head turner.
Speaker 2: So of course you know she's you know, she's driving
Speaker 2: around in a vehicle like this. She's not trying to
Speaker 2: be discreet, you know that, she's like here, I am Okay.
Speaker 1: May sees her car. She is alarmed because she couldn't
Speaker 1: find Thelma anywhere else. She looks inside the car, and
Speaker 1: this is where we see Thelma's body. May does not
Speaker 1: examine her at all. She just sees her slumped over,
Speaker 1: and she gets very upset. Of course, she runs down
Speaker 1: to the cafe, flying down those steep steps. She finds
Speaker 1: a general manager. He calls the police. So this is
Speaker 1: all Monday morning, and she was last seen Saturday night
Speaker 1: as far as we know right now. So I can
Speaker 1: tell you what her body looked like. But I also
Speaker 1: can immediately talk about the autopsy too.
Speaker 2: So you tell me.
Speaker 1: I know you like autopsy stuff, but what do you think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let's uh, let's get into the crime scene
Speaker 2: first in terms of understanding her body in context, you know,
Speaker 2: in sits you in the back of this car, and
Speaker 2: then go into the autopsy.
Speaker 1: So she has found slumped over the steering wheel. We
Speaker 1: find out that her nose is broken and she was
Speaker 1: bleeding from the mouth, but police think it's because she
Speaker 1: passed out and hit her face against the steering wheel.
Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons is, this is an
Speaker 1: interesting bit here. May said the garage was closed and
Speaker 1: that when she saw Thelma and she saw, you know,
Speaker 1: a little bit of bleeding and she's laying over the
Speaker 1: steering wheel, that she was unusually red. Her face was
Speaker 1: really red. Let's kind of of start there. They're not
Speaker 1: saying trauma, and their immediate response is not this is
Speaker 1: you know, somebody who's been beaten up. But what do
Speaker 1: you kind of think so far the way that I've
Speaker 1: laid it out, or do you need more info?
Speaker 2: Well, I think with sort of the thumbnail sketch, broken nose,
Speaker 2: bleeding out of the mouth, which you know possibly can
Speaker 2: occur as a result of you know, the trauma to
Speaker 2: the nose, in terms of evaluating the fracture to the nose,
Speaker 2: you know, is you know, how much damage is truly there?
Speaker 2: Is it consistent with somebody who's just now passes out
Speaker 2: and nose hits a hard steering wheel or is there
Speaker 2: more damage to that, And so that'd be something that
Speaker 2: would be determined at autopsy, as well as what other
Speaker 2: injuries she has on her body. You know, the red
Speaker 2: kind of it sounds like her face is flush, and
Speaker 2: you know, there's a variety of reasons why that can occur.
Speaker 2: You know, one of the first things, just due to
Speaker 2: the context of where she's found out in a car
Speaker 2: inside a closed garage, is is it possible that there's
Speaker 2: a carbon monoxide poisoning accidental? Potentially? You know, she was
Speaker 2: sitting in that that car for too long? Is the
Speaker 2: car still running when may you know, enters in? Does
Speaker 2: she detect something's wrong? Is a car completely out of
Speaker 2: gas but the ignition is turd like it's still running?
Speaker 2: You know, then that might suggest that you know, she
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, drove into the garage, closed the garage
Speaker 2: and stayed in there too long and then ultimately succumbed
Speaker 2: to carbon monoxide. So there's that aspect, you know, is
Speaker 2: there potentially does the heart condition weigh in? Is there
Speaker 2: a circulatory type of issue that's causing the red flushing?
Speaker 2: And then of course there's there's different acts of islence
Speaker 2: such as strangulation, you know, which could cause that that
Speaker 2: red flushing. So at this point, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: the investigators are, they're evaluating what's going on. It. It
Speaker 2: is unusual to see a homicide victim just seated in
Speaker 2: a car, slumped over the steering wheel, if it's not
Speaker 2: a gunshot victim. You know, we often see that today
Speaker 2: with shootings. But I'm assuming right now she's not a
Speaker 2: gunshot victim or a stabbing victim or something like that.
Speaker 2: And so now they're assessing things and reconstructing, and they're
Speaker 2: probably going this very likely could just be an accidental
Speaker 2: death or could be a natural if she had if
Speaker 2: the heart condition weighed in as to the reason why
Speaker 2: she ended up deceased inside this vehicle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think there's a lot of speculation about that.
Speaker 1: Was it the heart condition that contributed to this? Did
Speaker 1: she climb up all of those stairs herself? And then
Speaker 1: something happened she got into the car. So let me
Speaker 1: just tell you a couple of facts that are important
Speaker 1: and then we can get to the autop seat. Number One.
Speaker 1: May saw Thelma Saturday night before she went to an event,
Speaker 1: and she said she's wearing the same clothing she was
Speaker 1: wearing a mauve and silver dress and a mink coat
Speaker 1: and lots of expensive jewelry. She had an expensive handbag
Speaker 1: with her. None of it was touched. It's all there,
Speaker 1: so you know at first blush. She's been there since
Speaker 1: Saturday night, early Sunday morning, whenever you know she left
Speaker 1: this event. So they're trying to get a timeline together,
Speaker 1: but that's going to come into questions soon. The other
Speaker 1: note is that police do find the key in the
Speaker 1: ignition to her fancy car. It was turned to the
Speaker 1: on position, but the car was not running. So this
Speaker 1: is out of my pay grade. So I'm just going
Speaker 1: to tell you what it is and you can tell
Speaker 1: me what you think. This is a combustible engine, so
Speaker 1: there is no catalytic converter. I don't even know what
Speaker 1: that was. I didn't until I had to pay for one,
Speaker 1: and then I found out really quick witted.
Speaker 2: Expensive because of the precious metals inside there.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's the worst thing you can
Speaker 1: pay for. So I can think my kids for all
Speaker 1: the driving with them with a new catlet converter. He said,
Speaker 1: how did you put this many miles on this car?
Speaker 1: It's only a couple of years old. So the police
Speaker 1: say that this is because the car's engine, because it's
Speaker 1: a combustible engine, needs oxygen to run. So if something
Speaker 1: happens and the car has turned on, once the garage
Speaker 1: is filled up with carbon monoxide, there's no more oxygen
Speaker 1: and the engine would just cut off. Does that sound right?
Speaker 2: Yes, it does.
Speaker 1: What happens now with the engine? First of all, what
Speaker 1: kind of engines do we have?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 1: I know we should know that I should know that.
Speaker 2: It's the same, you know, in terms of for gasoline engines.
Speaker 2: In essence, they're just combustion engines, and so you know,
Speaker 2: they're fundamentally operate the same way as this particular engine,
Speaker 2: just obviously more advanced. You need oxygen for fire. Well,
Speaker 2: that's in essence what happens inside the cylinder of you know,
Speaker 2: one of the chambers within these engines, and you know this,
Speaker 2: this particular car possibly had anywhere from eight to twelve cylinders,
Speaker 2: and there's a spark plug in each cylinder, and then
Speaker 2: there's a source of fuel that sprays into the cylinder,
Speaker 2: and so now you have this gas vapor and then
Speaker 2: as the cylinder comes up and compresses that gas, there's
Speaker 2: a spark from the spark plug that ignites the gas
Speaker 2: and in order for that gas to actually combust to
Speaker 2: produce pressure to force the cylinder down, which ultimately is
Speaker 2: the mechanism that is translated into being able to move
Speaker 2: the vehicle. Once there's no oxygen, that combustion engine can't
Speaker 2: operate anymore. So if that garage filled up with sufficient
Speaker 2: carbon monoxide, I would say, yeah, theoretically, it's possible that
Speaker 2: the engine just died and had been left running for
Speaker 2: a period of time.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's keep that in mind, because you know,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of theories that are going to
Speaker 1: be flowing around nineteen thirty five LA. Pretty soon. There
Speaker 1: is someone who comes, a doctor who comes and examines
Speaker 1: her body. His name is JP Sampson. When doctor Sampson
Speaker 1: looks at Thelma's body, he says, she has been dead
Speaker 1: for about twelve hours. Now. I don't know how he
Speaker 1: determines that. I don't think they use liver temperature, but
Speaker 1: maybe it was rigor. But just doing math, let's say
Speaker 1: this happens at nine am. That puts her death at
Speaker 1: nine pm Sunday night. But she's wearing the clothes from
Speaker 1: Saturday night.
Speaker 2: So you know, one of the things I want to
Speaker 2: address about her clothes. You know, may sees her leaving
Speaker 2: Saturday night in those clothes. What we don't know is
Speaker 2: it possible that she stayed in those clothes alive for
Speaker 2: how long period of time? More did she redress into
Speaker 2: those clothes, you know? And those are the clothes she
Speaker 2: came back to Roland's place in this vehicle. So it's
Speaker 2: kind of hard to draw a firm conclusion that whatever
Speaker 2: happened to Thelma happened Saturday night because we just don't
Speaker 2: know anything about her state of dress, and you know
Speaker 2: how long she had those clothes on before she ended
Speaker 2: up dying. So it's interesting it. I would say, what
Speaker 2: you could conclude as well, she did not get back
Speaker 2: to her residence or a location where she had closed
Speaker 2: that she would be wanting to change into, you know,
Speaker 2: that would be part of it. To try to timeline
Speaker 2: exactly when something happened to Thelma based on her dress
Speaker 2: would be tough.
Speaker 1: Yes, I have had times in my youth where I
Speaker 1: have been in the same clothing for six years and
Speaker 1: I wasn't camping, I was living in New York, So yes,
Speaker 1: well we'll see I don't trust the twelve hour timeline either.
Speaker 1: I guess we'll just see how this progresses well.
Speaker 2: And even the pathologist saying she's been dead for twelve hours,
Speaker 2: that's just a rough rough guess.
Speaker 1: So we've got the autopsy. Thelma's brain and organs are
Speaker 1: described in the autopsy report as scarlet red of blood,
Speaker 1: and her body is also discolored red. Her blood is
Speaker 1: found to have a seventy five to eighty percent saturation
Speaker 1: of carbon monoxide, which.
Speaker 2: Is classic, you know, this is when you see somebody
Speaker 2: like this and at autopsy the pathologist is immediately going, okay,
Speaker 2: we've got carbon monoxide. You know, this is even before
Speaker 2: there's any type of toxicology testing going on. It's that
Speaker 2: this is almost diagnostic, you know. And the question is
Speaker 2: is you know, at this point, okay, is this is
Speaker 2: it accidental? Is it natural? Or is there a chance
Speaker 2: that there is violence inflicted on her to a point
Speaker 2: to where she is unconscious and is left inside this
Speaker 2: garage and now the carbon monoxide is building up from
Speaker 2: the running car and then she succumbs to the carbon
Speaker 2: monoxide poisoning. But the reality is is that there was
Speaker 2: a violent act at the hands of another you know,
Speaker 2: so too early to really draw a conclusion, but most
Speaker 2: certainly at this point unless you tell me of other
Speaker 2: significant injuries to her. At this point, carbon monoxide sounds
Speaker 2: like the primary cause of death.
Speaker 1: Yes, and there are no other significant injuries other than
Speaker 1: what I had mentioned before, a little bleeding at the
Speaker 1: mouth and a broken nose, which investigators conclude very quickly
Speaker 1: is because you know, when carbon monoxide started to take effect,
Speaker 1: that her face hit the steering wheel, which would have
Speaker 1: been a very heavy steering wheel, would probably or mahoggitting,
Speaker 1: I don't know what it would have been, and broke
Speaker 1: her nose. The question I think that is going to
Speaker 1: come as is this suicide? Is this an accident? How
Speaker 1: would this have been an accident? Or is this something else?
Speaker 1: Because there are a lot of complicated things happening.
Speaker 2: Right now, it appears that the medical findings aren't differentiating
Speaker 2: the manner of death. So there is no sign of strangulation,
Speaker 2: there's no defensive injuries obviously I've already asked, there's no
Speaker 2: stab wounds, no gunshot wounds, etc. So fundamentally, you've got
Speaker 2: a fractured nose, bleeding out of the mouth, and carbon
Speaker 2: monoxide poisoning. Basically, all types of manners of death potentially
Speaker 2: are on the table, though homicide kind of becomes less
Speaker 2: likely but not eliminated. Based on these circumstances.
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk in a little bit about what
Speaker 1: she did that night, who she was with, and the
Speaker 1: circumstances about why homicide definitely needs to stay on the table.
Speaker 1: The corner, so there was doctor Sampson, but there's also
Speaker 1: a corner, separate person who said after his examination and
Speaker 1: that Thelma had been dead more like thirty hours when
Speaker 1: she was found, which of course is much closer to
Speaker 1: the Saturday night mark. Again, what's reliable here and what isn't.
Speaker 1: I don't have notes on what they were using. I
Speaker 1: think it was probably rigor. I don't think they were
Speaker 1: using liver temperature at this point.
Speaker 2: You know, rigor would be part of it. You know,
Speaker 2: that's one of the first things that the pathologists are
Speaker 2: going to note in terms of how long the body
Speaker 2: has been dead, you know, the body temperature. You know,
Speaker 2: this was occurring mid December, you know, but you're also
Speaker 2: dealing with la you know, on the coastal front there.
Speaker 2: You know, it's maybe seventy degrees in the winter time
Speaker 2: at times. You know, it's not excessively hot, it's not
Speaker 2: excessively cold. My assessment what I would want to be
Speaker 2: taking a look at. You know, they're drawing a conclusion
Speaker 2: that she hit her nose on the steering wheel. If
Speaker 2: that's what happened, you know, you imagine her head going forward.
Speaker 2: She's basically collapsing and probably doesn't revive after that point. Right, So, now,
Speaker 2: are the blood flows out of the nose, the blood
Speaker 2: patterns inside the vehicle consistent with that last movement of
Speaker 2: her body that caused the bleeding to occur, or is
Speaker 2: there blood in discrete locations that would not line up
Speaker 2: with this idea of just slumping forward, as if she
Speaker 2: let's say, somebody punched her in the nose, she gets
Speaker 2: knocked out, and then that person puts her into a
Speaker 2: seated position in the driver's seat, you know, and leaves
Speaker 2: the vehicle running inside this closed garage. That's where now
Speaker 2: you have to start really paying attention to the details.
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure you have those details.
Speaker 1: Well, let's see, we do have a lot of information
Speaker 1: about what she did that night, and you're right, like
Speaker 1: more theories and maybe a little bit more information do
Speaker 1: you think that carbon monoxide poisoning would throw off time
Speaker 1: of death estimations at all or.
Speaker 2: No, generally not. Now, part of what you know we
Speaker 2: look at at a crime scene is lividity. Blood settles
Speaker 2: with gravity. After you die, your heart is no longer pumping,
Speaker 2: and so as Thelma is seated there slumped over, heart stops.
Speaker 2: Blood settles to the lower parts of her body, showing
Speaker 2: the position that she's in. That lividity is something that
Speaker 2: I would be paying attention to to see had she
Speaker 2: laid in a position different than the position that she
Speaker 2: is ultimately found in. Lividity sets after a certain period
Speaker 2: of time, So if somebody has moved prior to the
Speaker 2: lividity setting, then the lividity the blood shifts inside the
Speaker 2: body and so the original lividity pattern is changed. But
Speaker 2: once the lividity pattern sets, when the body's moved from
Speaker 2: the time that they die to the time that they
Speaker 2: ultimately are found, the libidity will show that. And the
Speaker 2: extent of the lividity is possibly something the pathologists may
Speaker 2: be relying upon to get a better sense in terms
Speaker 2: of of how long somebody's been dead under select circumstances,
Speaker 2: the carbon monoxide poisoning can make it tougher to see
Speaker 2: the faint lividity aspects just because of the coloration due
Speaker 2: to the carbon monoxide. Various decomposational processes are occurring, and
Speaker 2: if she's been dead for thirty hours, it's possible you
Speaker 2: could start to see some of like her veins become
Speaker 2: darker as the bacteria are starting to decompose the blood
Speaker 2: inside the veins, they become very prominent looking. This is
Speaker 2: what we call marbling, and that possibly can occur within
Speaker 2: that thirty hour period of time. Or you could start
Speaker 2: to see the dissension of the you know, the bloating
Speaker 2: of the abdomen, you know, as the gases from the
Speaker 2: gut bacteria start to build up, or you get a
Speaker 2: greenish tinge to the abdomen. You know, this is indicating
Speaker 2: that she's probably been dead longer than twelve hours. So
Speaker 2: the pathologist, if he's doing proper documentation in his autopsy report,
Speaker 2: if he's saying she's been dead for thirty hours, then
Speaker 2: he should be listing the characteristics that he is observing
Speaker 2: to come to that opinion.
Speaker 1: Well, as we wrap up this first episode, I'm going
Speaker 1: to talk about why this is a two parter because
Speaker 1: there were a lot of suspicions about her death. There
Speaker 1: were a lot of things that investigators thought were really odd,
Speaker 1: and her mother really thought was odd. So Number one,
Speaker 1: we've already noted that her car is parked in the
Speaker 1: garage at the top of this massive hill, and I
Speaker 1: will give you a hint for the next episode. She
Speaker 1: did not drive it. She had a driver who took
Speaker 1: her to an event and then took her and dropped
Speaker 1: her off at three am at her apartment. Oh right,
Speaker 1: And her car had been at Roland's house up the
Speaker 1: hill all day. She just didn't want to deal with driving,
Speaker 1: and she had a driver, you know, take her places
Speaker 1: that day. Her mother says that there is no way
Speaker 1: at three in the morning she climbed the steps that
Speaker 1: would have just taken her out completely. She had never
Speaker 1: done it before to get up to Roland's house. How
Speaker 1: did she get up to Roland's house? And she's also
Speaker 1: had some threats in the last couple of months, so
Speaker 1: there's a lot happening with this story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the plot thickens.
Speaker 1: Mary stole that from some hard boiled detective novel you read.
Speaker 1: Have you ever said that in real life? The plot thickens.
Speaker 2: No, not that I can recall except now.
Speaker 1: Okay, So next week we will talk more about that
Speaker 1: absolutely fantastic Thelmatod and the tragedy that is her death,
Speaker 1: whatever happened to her.
Speaker 2: Hopefully, by the end of the next episode we will
Speaker 2: get to the bottom of this.
Speaker 1: I hope so too. I will see you next week.
Speaker 2: All right, kay, thank you. Thanks.
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to a exactly wrightmedia
Speaker 2: dot com slash Buried Bones sources.
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked My Life Solving America's
Speaker 1: cold cases is also available now.
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