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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Akay, how's it going with you?

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Speaker 1: It's going well, And I'll tell you why. I want

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Speaker 1: to tell you about an episode that I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you've heard yet, that I recorded for Wicked Words.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I've interviewed some big names, including you

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Speaker 1: of course, like a David Grhan and you know, all

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Speaker 1: of these I feel like, really big nonfiction folks. And

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Speaker 1: then across my email comes do you want an interview

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Speaker 1: with Marcia Clark? Oh? Okay, So I was just awestruck,

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Speaker 1: I really was, and she could not be sweeter and

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Speaker 1: the interview is fantastic. You should listen to it. It

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Speaker 1: is not about OJ Okay, nor did she want. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if she ever wants to talk about OJ

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Speaker 1: Simpson ever again, she like she says, she sort of

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Speaker 1: blocked it out of her mind. Essentially, Where were you

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Speaker 1: when that case was going on? Were you in Northern

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Speaker 1: California or Central or where were you?

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Speaker 2: No? I was. I was working for the Sheriff's Crime

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Speaker 2: Lab at the time. In fact, I was some following

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Speaker 2: the case. It was a big deal in forensics because

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Speaker 2: of all the evidence, particularly DNA that was being presented,

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Speaker 2: and so we were following it pretty closely. In fact,

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Speaker 2: I actually faxed information down to the LAPD Crime Lab

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Speaker 2: because they're krim lists. Obviously didn't know what he was

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Speaker 2: talking about when it came to crime scene photography, and

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Speaker 2: the defense was really exploiting him on the stand, and

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Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, you need to really understand how

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Speaker 2: focal length with camera lenses can really change the front

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Speaker 2: to rear aspect ratios. So I compiled all this information

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Speaker 2: and faxed it down, But I distinctly remember that case.

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Speaker 2: Of course, I remember Marcia Clark in fact, I've spoken

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Speaker 2: with Marcia over the phone. She was getting involved with

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Speaker 2: TV production and I'm not sure if she still is

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Speaker 2: or not, but you know, we had chatted a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Then I actually sat next to Christopher Darden for dinner.

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Speaker 2: I think it was an award ceremony. I had a crime,

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Speaker 2: yeh know, So I got to chat with him a

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Speaker 2: little bit. Real nice guy. And of course, you know,

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Speaker 2: they have this whole OJ trial hanging over their heads

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Speaker 2: for you know, forever in essence, you know, but I

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Speaker 2: most certainly understand sort of how things kind of went

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Speaker 2: awry for them, and don't put a whole heck of

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Speaker 2: a lot of personal blame in either one of them. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, I read there was an article and I think

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Speaker 1: the headline was something like Marcia Clark has been absolved,

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Speaker 1: and it was kind of how she's gone from I

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Speaker 1: don't remember her being as villainized as you know, this

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Speaker 1: magazine and a lot of other media have said. Back

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Speaker 1: in ninety five, I was too busy working in a

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Speaker 1: news station to really even pay attention to all that.

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Speaker 1: But now she's become this feminist icon, which she is.

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Speaker 1: After talking to her, it is probably my favorite interview

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Speaker 1: of all the interviews, sorry everybody else that I've including you,

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Speaker 1: I've ever done on Wicked Words, because she's so engaging

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Speaker 1: and much like you. You know, she had the case

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Speaker 1: she had Oj Simpson, you had the Golden State Killer,

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Speaker 1: and she certainly could have taken money back from a

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Speaker 1: big book deal that she had and then just sort

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Speaker 1: of gone off. But she has just stayed so active.

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Speaker 1: She has novels, She's got now two nonfiction books, and

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Speaker 1: I was talking to her about the latest one that

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Speaker 1: set in nineteen fifty three. As you said, she does

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Speaker 1: TV stuff all the time, so she really has stayed active,

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Speaker 1: and it was just so interesting to talk with her

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Speaker 1: about the case that she was talking about on my show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've completely lost track of her, to

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Speaker 2: be frank, you know, so I didn't know. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what she's been up to. So this is the

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Speaker 2: first tim hearing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked a little bit about the misogyny that

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Speaker 1: was happening, which was pervasive, of course, and she was

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Speaker 1: told to soften her hair and she was told to

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Speaker 1: wear you know, kind of less I guess masculine was

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Speaker 1: the insinuation clothing, which she said, this is what I

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Speaker 1: wear to court. This isn't masculine to me to use

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Speaker 1: a softer tone. So there was so much stuff, you know,

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Speaker 1: looking back on it, she just said, it just takes

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Speaker 1: so long to process things like that. That's this is

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Speaker 1: stuff that you're just trying to do your job, and

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Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing that happens. She was investigating

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Speaker 1: a case from fifty three that the district attorney at

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Speaker 1: the time was heading up. This case. It was a

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Speaker 1: huge murder trial of a botched home invasion, and she

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Speaker 1: said that this district attorney was an icon to her

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Speaker 1: when she was working in la as a prosecutor. Everybody

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Speaker 1: knew who this guy was long after he was dead.

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Speaker 1: And then she said, I looked in the case and

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Speaker 1: it was awful. He was awful. He did so many

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Speaker 1: legal things then and now, and she said, it's really

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Speaker 1: dispiriting to have this person in your head like who

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Speaker 1: you're trying to strive to be. And then when she

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Speaker 1: actually looked and worked one of his cases, you know,

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Speaker 1: sixty seventy years later, to just see how many times

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Speaker 1: he failed and it was just really disheartening for her.

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Speaker 1: It was interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because I'm thinking nineteen fifty three. So we're

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Speaker 2: talking just a handful of years after the Black Dohlia case. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: out there in LA you know. So that kind of

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Speaker 2: puts some perspective because I've kind of dug into the

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Speaker 2: Black Dolly a little bit from the investigator side, you know,

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Speaker 2: and of course law enforcement was you know, so I

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Speaker 2: don't know primorgial, if you will, relative to today in

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Speaker 2: terms of how they handled investigations and crime scenes and forensics.

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Speaker 2: That case, of course never went to trial, but I

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Speaker 2: can only imagine you know, her assessment of sort of

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Speaker 2: the legal mind that she held in great and high

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Speaker 2: regard and now seeing oh well maybe not so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, it was putting plants in jail cells with

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Speaker 1: a young woman, you know, not taking an account into

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Speaker 1: her background, and then you know, ultimately issuing a death

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Speaker 1: sentence to a woman who was executed for essentially, you know,

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Speaker 1: being a decoy. And that was it. And I said,

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Speaker 1: would you do that now? And she said no, Now,

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Speaker 1: they're accessory to murder, accessory after the factor, all these things,

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Speaker 1: you know. But she got looped in with the other

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Speaker 1: two robbers who ended up killing somebody, and she just

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Speaker 1: said it was a little stunning, and the district attorney

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Speaker 1: who she respected so much, could have said, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of mitigating circumstances with leniency. She was saying, with leniency,

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Speaker 1: and he didn't do it. I mean, in this young

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Speaker 1: woman really did very little. She knew something was going

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Speaker 1: to happen, but she didn't suspect a murder would happen

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Speaker 1: at all. And then you're executing a mother of three

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Speaker 1: or four people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and it really underscores, you know, the

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Speaker 2: power that the elected DA has, you know, And I've

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Speaker 2: been in the room where the death penalty is being

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Speaker 2: debated for a particular case, and of course that's led

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Speaker 2: by the elected DA, and then the prosecutor who's handling

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Speaker 2: the case presents the case. And now you have very

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Speaker 2: senior prosecutors chief of investigations. I happen to be in

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Speaker 2: a couple of these during the course of my career

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Speaker 2: at the DA's office, and today it is taken very

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Speaker 2: seriously and most certainly you know this scenario you're talking

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Speaker 2: about where sounds like she was an accessory in California.

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Speaker 2: Maybe this felony murder aspect is what they used to

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Speaker 2: go after her, but in essence to apply the death

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Speaker 2: penalty as if she's the one that's actually committing the murder.

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Speaker 2: You know that sounds way over the top.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean he nicknamed her the defendant Bloody

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Speaker 1: babs Oh in the courtroom in front of the jury,

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Speaker 1: and I said, is that Lee? I feel like every

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Speaker 1: other question was is that legal? Is that legal now?

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Speaker 1: Is that legal now? And every answer was like no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: And that's the issue.

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Speaker 2: Well the defense would object. You know, that's prejudicial, that's

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Speaker 2: influencing the jury.

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Speaker 1: It was startling to me. So anyway, Marcia Clark, I

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Speaker 1: am a huge fan. And I even said it from

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Speaker 1: the beginning. I said, I don't think I use the

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Speaker 1: word fangirl, but I'm really going to try to not gush.

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Speaker 1: And she said, well, thank you. I listened to your show,

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Speaker 1: so very cool. Marcia Clark is a celebrity in my

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Speaker 1: little world of celebrities. So I thought you'd find that interesting.

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Speaker 1: And we are hanging out in southern California in the

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Speaker 1: Pacific Palisades Act for this story. But this is not

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three, this is nineteen thirty five. To me,

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Speaker 1: I think you're going to find this interesting enough. We're

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Speaker 1: making this a double and it involves Hollywood and an

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Speaker 1: actress who I found so interesting that I actually watched

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Speaker 1: one of her films from nineteen thirty I think it

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Speaker 1: was from thirty three or so. There's a lot happening

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Speaker 1: with this story.

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Speaker 2: No, it sounds sounds cool. Now. I don't think I've

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Speaker 2: ever been in Pacific Palisades, but of course I'm very

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Speaker 2: much aware of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, of course, especially with the fires earlier this year,

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Speaker 1: and I had been thinking about that. So I feel

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Speaker 1: like every time I have a case where I see

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Speaker 1: that phrase of that neighborhood, Pacific Palisades, I'm always going

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Speaker 1: to think about the fire. So we are really going

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Speaker 1: far back where we're looking at ninety years ago. So

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and set the scene so we are

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Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty five. Remind me when Black Dahlia happened,

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Speaker 1: because I actually have not looked at the case at all.

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Speaker 1: I would love for you and I to talk about it,

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Speaker 1: and I think, will You're going to have to bring

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Speaker 1: it up if you think it reminds you of this

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Speaker 1: in any way.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, Black Dahlia was late forties. I believe it

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Speaker 2: was nineteen forty seven. But right now I'm a little

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Speaker 2: fuzzy on the exact year that it happened. I actually interviewed.

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Speaker 2: There was an author, this Steve Hodell, who's former LAPD homicide, robbery, homicide,

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Speaker 2: and he's written several books on the Black Dahlia and

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Speaker 2: he's claiming his father is the offender in the Black

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Speaker 2: Dahlia case. I'm not convinced, let's just put it that way.

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Speaker 2: But it is a case that I'm highly interested in.

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Speaker 2: And I actually did reach out to a professional friend

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Speaker 2: at lada's office saying I'd be willing to help. And

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Speaker 2: basically I got back from LAPD and the lada's office

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Speaker 2: well not at this time.

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Speaker 1: They have other priorities from something that was eighty years ago.

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Speaker 1: I guess you're right. It was in forty seven. Black

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Speaker 1: Dahlia was in forty seven.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, basically they said that they were looking at

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Speaker 2: some things from the case, you know, So it sounds

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Speaker 2: like they have an interest in pursuing it. But of

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Speaker 2: course a nineteen forty seven case will take the back

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Speaker 2: burner when anything else pops up.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is a confusing case. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's a cold case. So this is nineteen thirty five

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Speaker 1: the morning of Monday, December sixteenth. There is a housekeeper

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Speaker 1: named May and she's a little bit more of an assistant,

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Speaker 1: I think, to an actress movie star. Really, I'm not

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Speaker 1: even gonna say actress movie star named Thelma Todd. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I really was curious about Thelma. I told you,

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Speaker 1: I'll watch one of her movies and I would say

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Speaker 1: movie star. I mean, she really has a presence. She

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Speaker 1: is very well known. And I'm going to show you

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Speaker 1: a picture of her shortly, which sometimes I show you,

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Speaker 1: you know, the people who are involved. Sometimes I don't.

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Speaker 1: If I think it's relevant, you know, I'll show it

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Speaker 1: to you and it'll be relevant, I think in this case.

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Speaker 1: So her housekeeper shows up. She is at a house

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Speaker 1: in the Pacific Palisades. As I told you, this is

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Speaker 1: a neighborhood of la If nobody knows that. It's a

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Speaker 1: seaside community that over the past decade or so has

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Speaker 1: emerged as a secluded neighborhood for movie stars and studio executives.

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Speaker 1: And they build these incredible Mediterranean style homes so they

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Speaker 1: can get away from the hustle and bustle of Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: It's very, very hilly, so the housekeeper May works for

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Speaker 1: twenty nine year old Thelma Todd. She is a movie star,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna jump right to it. She's our victim.

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Speaker 1: I think I want to give you kind of a

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Speaker 1: lot of context about her upfront, because I do think

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Speaker 1: it's relevant, especially with witnesses coming up. So she is

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Speaker 1: not a small time actress. She was in one hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty feature films, feature films and a lot of

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Speaker 1: shorts over the last nine years. So she starred with

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Speaker 1: names you're going to recognize, right, Buster Keaton, the Marx Brothers,

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Speaker 1: Laurel and Harty, and then a whole list of people

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Speaker 1: who I'm pretty sure are famous, but I had not

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Speaker 1: heard of. She was slapstick. That was specialty, and that's

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Speaker 1: why I wanted to watch one of her films. So

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Speaker 1: there's a film called The ten Man and it's a

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Speaker 1: short and it was really good. I watched it on

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Speaker 1: YouTube and she is very lucy, of I love Lucy.

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Speaker 1: She's paired up with a woman in the scene that

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Speaker 1: I was watching. You know, they're very very lucy and ethyl,

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Speaker 1: and so I watched it before I really dug into

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Speaker 1: the story, just because any opportunity I know you do

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Speaker 1: this too. Any opportunity I have to feel like I

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Speaker 1: have a deeper connection with our victim, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: take and so, you know, it just kind of left

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Speaker 1: me sad more than anything, but sad's appropriate when you're

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Speaker 1: looking into an investigation. Also, I assume, I know, you

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Speaker 1: want to know everything about the victim. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: this movie that I watched was relevant to this case.

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Speaker 1: I actually know it it wasn't, but I just felt

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Speaker 1: like I really wanted to see. Do you feel like

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Speaker 1: that too?

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Speaker 2: Well? You know, with the cases that I work, you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the first things that I do is try

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Speaker 2: to learn as much about the victim as I possibly can.

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Speaker 2: You know, and I've said this over and over, victimology

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Speaker 2: is huge. You know, so who the victim is, what

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Speaker 2: the victim is up to, you know where the victim

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Speaker 2: is going. You know, all these circumstances surrounding the victim

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Speaker 2: sometimes can lead to the investigation to determine who's the

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Speaker 2: one that's the offender, who's the one that's responsible for

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Speaker 2: let's say, if it's a homicide. So that's that's important,

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Speaker 2: you know for the cases that I primarily focused in on.

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Speaker 2: You know, out of the sixties and the seventies. Oftentimes

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Speaker 2: I didn't have video of the victims like nowadays. You know,

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Speaker 2: if somebody ends up being a victim, there's all this

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Speaker 2: social media stuff that's been posted, and you can really

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Speaker 2: see the victim in life. In this case, you know,

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty five with Thelma Todd. You know, this is

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Speaker 2: probably an unusual circumstance where now you know, a homicide

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Speaker 2: victim you can actually see in life. Now she's portraying somebody.

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Speaker 2: She's an actress, right, so it's not necessarily her and

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Speaker 2: her personality, but it's still a living person that you know,

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Speaker 2: ended up dying for one reason or another.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing about Thelma that I think would occur

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Speaker 1: with any Hollywood actress or actor, or anybody who's well

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Speaker 1: known as this would be somebody who strangers would recognize.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're often talking about that. In all of

290
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Speaker 1: my cases, it feels like I hear the same thing

291
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Speaker 1: over and over again, especially in the eighteen hundreds. It

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Speaker 1: looks like that guy, Yeah, that guy looked like your suspect.

293
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Speaker 1: But Thelma Todd was and I'm going to show you

294
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Speaker 1: the photo in a second, Thelma Todd would have stood

295
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Speaker 1: out even in Pacific Palisades at this time. So that's

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Speaker 1: what makes to me this story really interesting too.

297
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Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like she was a highly successful actor,

298
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Speaker 2: you know, so she was celebrity famous. Yeah, you know,

299
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Speaker 2: the name is tickling my brain, you know, but I'm

300
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Speaker 2: not picturing who she is.

301
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Speaker 1: Well you can picture her now and this is a headshot.

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Speaker 1: Let me know what you think.

303
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah. One of the things that I do that

304
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Speaker 2: people might think is somewhat strange. There's a YouTube channel

305
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Speaker 2: called Hollywood Graveyard and it's very well done. And this

306
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Speaker 2: guy he goes to the various cemeteries around and he's

307
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Speaker 2: now doing it all over the world, but he started

308
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Speaker 2: out there in the LA area, and he, you know,

309
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Speaker 2: tells stories about the various celebrities that are buried or

310
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Speaker 2: interred in some manner at these various cemeteries. And I

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Speaker 2: believe that he's covered Thelma Todd if she's out there,

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Speaker 2: that she looks very familiar.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So Gene Harlowe was considered the original bombshell, and

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Speaker 1: bombshell now I think would be considered an insult for

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Speaker 1: a woman, you know, dismissive and really concentrating on her looks,

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Speaker 1: but Thelma Todd was in that category for Hollywood in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties. She was definitely considered the blonde bombshell.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to skip right over that and just say

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Speaker 1: she was an excellent actress, obviously incredibly success and she

320
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Speaker 1: was also somebody who had businesses. And that plays into

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Speaker 1: it a little bit here too. Where we are when

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Speaker 1: all this stuff starts to happen with Thelma is at

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Speaker 1: the time of her death, she was shooting a movie,

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Speaker 1: and she was starring in two, how roach films that

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Speaker 1: were about to be released. One was called All American Toothache.

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Speaker 1: I watched part of that, and another one was called

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Speaker 1: Bohemian Girl, and that's on my list. So she lives

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Speaker 1: in an apartment above the restaurant that she owns. She

329
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Speaker 1: runs this place. It's called Thelma Todd's Sidewalk Cafe, and

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Speaker 1: it's on what we now call the Pacific Coast Highway,

331
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Speaker 1: right on the ocean. So this is sort of her

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Speaker 1: retirement plan. And she was one of the very first

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Speaker 1: celebrities to sort of use her brand, you know, put

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Speaker 1: her actual name on a cafe rather than just calling

335
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Speaker 1: it the sidewalk Cafe. She put her name on it,

336
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Speaker 1: and that was not usual. So that's what we mean

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Speaker 1: by she was sort of innovative and somebody who really

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Speaker 1: wanted to be aggressive. Writing that at age twenty nine

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, she could have been not far

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Speaker 1: another decade off of her career. Unfortunately, I don't know,

341
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Speaker 1: but she was planning ahead. So now we've got a

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Speaker 1: Hollywood actress who also seems to have some money, and

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Speaker 1: she has an investment in a business and is well known.

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Speaker 1: So that's where we stand right now.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, So in essence, this celebrity aspect is of

346
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Speaker 2: course going to draw attention and just from her, you know,

347
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Speaker 2: the prolific nature of the number of films she's been in.

348
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Speaker 2: You know, people that may have bad intent of course,

349
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Speaker 2: are going to assume she's got a lot of money,

350
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Speaker 2: and it sounds like with some of the business aspects

351
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Speaker 2: she's utilizing her money wisely. So she even has more

352
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Speaker 2: money than maybe the average actress at that time. Yep.

353
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Speaker 1: So let's talk about her as a person. So May

354
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Speaker 1: the housekeeper wants to find out where Thelma is, but

355
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Speaker 1: she also kind of understands that Thelma is a young

356
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Speaker 1: woman who likes to go out a lot. She stays

357
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Speaker 1: out late at night. She might not come home, and

358
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Speaker 1: so I don't think she's particularly alarmed just yet. It's

359
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 1: not out of character for her to sleep away from home,

360
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Speaker 1: especially on a weekend. She has a really active social life.

361
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Speaker 1: And we have some more details on water social life

362
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,600
Speaker 1: was like coming up, May looks through this apartment, there's

363
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Speaker 1: no one there. Then she goes to the house up

364
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Speaker 1: the hill, and this is where Thelma stays. Sometimes she

365
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 1: is not there either. Now here is just sort of

366
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Speaker 1: a theoretical question. I guess May has not decided to

367
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Speaker 1: call the police yet, and you know, I know it's

368
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Speaker 1: because she's thinking in her head, well, she doesn't have

369
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Speaker 1: to report to me when she's doing what and when.

370
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Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, at what point

371
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Speaker 1: should somebody call the police? Is if somebody has not

372
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Speaker 1: come home and it's completely out of their character, I

373
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Speaker 1: just don't know what at what point do you sort

374
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Speaker 1: of draw that line. It's intimidating to call the police, Paul,

375
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Speaker 1: to me, at least, because you know, if somebody walks

376
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Speaker 1: through the door, you feel stupid. You have to explain stuff.

377
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 1: So I think probably a lot of people feel like that.

378
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can see where there would be some reservation.

379
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 2: You know, it's so variable as to when somebody should

380
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,439
Speaker 2: call the police. You know. Here with May, it sounds like,

381
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Speaker 2: I mean, you described her as a housekeeper, but it

382
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,120
Speaker 2: sounds like she was more of a like an assistant yea,

383
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,919
Speaker 2: you know, helping Thelma with all her day in and

384
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Speaker 2: day out activities, coordinating things, et cetera. So more of

385
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 2: like an executive assistant. And so I would say, you know,

386
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 2: under that set of circumstances, you know, it sounds like

387
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 2: Thelma not coming back to the apartment that particular night.

388
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Speaker 1: It's a Sunday night, and you know, we're going to

389
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Speaker 1: find out that she was last seen Saturday. Okay, So

390
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 1: as far as May new, Thelma went out, and I'll

391
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 1: tell you with who in a little bit Saturday night.

392
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Speaker 1: She hasn't talked to her since. And it's Monday morning,

393
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Speaker 1: and she I think she's thinking, well, I don't know,

394
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Speaker 1: because it's been Sunday and Monday. I'm surprised she's not

395
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Speaker 1: here Monday morning because she would have been working at

396
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 1: the cafe and doing stuff with the cafe.

397
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Speaker 2: I would say, you know, May's insight into what Thelma's

398
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 2: normal routine would be because of May's position with Thelma,

399
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,679
Speaker 2: where she's now seeing Thelma is not doing what she

400
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 2: normally would, you know, now it's stepping outside the routine

401
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,679
Speaker 2: depending on like if Thelma is not showing up at

402
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 2: the restaurant and the restaurant ends up having to be

403
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,919
Speaker 2: closed or whatever, you know, or Thelma has some sort

404
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,439
Speaker 2: of meeting with a network executive or whatever it is,

405
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 2: and May's going Thelma wouldn't do this now at this point,

406
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 2: then there should be concerned, Yeah, because now this is

407
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,919
Speaker 2: outside of the victimology that we know of for Thelma

408
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,399
Speaker 2: that May knows for Thelman. And I would say that's

409
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 2: kind of the same for any time somebody goes missing.

410
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 2: You know, law enforcement needs to do a better job

411
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 2: listening to the families because the families go, this isn't right, right,

412
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,480
Speaker 2: But oftentimes they're reporting an adult missing, and so many

413
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 2: times when that happens, law enforcement, you know, goes, well,

414
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 2: this person has just left and they have an absolute

415
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 2: right to leave, and we're not going to spend resources

416
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,399
Speaker 2: to try to track that person down until there's a

417
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 2: set of circumstances in which now we think there's an

418
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 2: endangered aspect to this missing adult. But with Thelma right now,

419
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 2: it seems like May is recognizing Thelma would not normally

420
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,400
Speaker 2: be missing at this particular time during the day.

421
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:38,199
Speaker 1: Absolutely, so May knows there are a few more places

422
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 1: she can check. She's not in the apartment down below,

423
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 1: She's not up the hill at this place, and this

424
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 1: is a big hill too, you know where she would

425
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: kind of go back and forth between staying at the

426
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 1: house at the top of the hill staying in her apartment.

427
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 1: So May decides she needs to look a few more

428
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 1: places before we talk about, you know where else she looks.

429
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 1: I want to say that the reason that Thelma stays

430
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: at the house on the hill sometimes is that she's

431
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,199
Speaker 1: been dating a movie director for quite a while. His

432
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 1: name is Roland West, and he's the one who owns

433
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: that house. Nobody's at this house, and May has apparently

434
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: a key to be able to get in Roland and Thelma.

435
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 1: This is where things get a little complicated. Roland and

436
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: Thelma own the apartment above the restaurant together, but they

437
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 1: have separate bedrooms which are divided by a sliding wooden door,

438
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:34,120
Speaker 1: and Roland is still technically married to another actress named

439
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: jul Carmen. Jewel is not a big Hollywood star. She's

440
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 1: a small time actress and it sounds like her career

441
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: acting might be somewhat over. So she is married to Roland,

442
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 1: and technically, while Thelma owns part of the restaurant Thelma

443
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: Todd's Cafe, Roland and Jewel together own part of it. Also,

444
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: it's a little murky with this whole relation ship thing

445
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 1: is like, but it doesn't sound like there have been

446
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 1: public blowups. They're not in the press. It seems like

447
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: whatever is happening seems kind of cordial in a way,

448
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 1: or maybe they've worked out some kind of an agreement.

449
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 1: But now you've got Thelma involved with another Hollywood actress

450
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: and then a director, and everybody seems to be kind

451
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: of sharing residences. It kind of gets odd after this, Yeah.

452
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 2: You know, of course, you know, this sounds like the

453
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 2: typical lover's triangle, you know, in which you could potentially

454
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 2: have jealousies arise. And it really does come down to,

455
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: you know, what does Jewel, Roland's wife know about his

456
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: relationship with Thelma. Is this something that she has accepted,

457
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 2: you know? So of course, early investigations into the victimology,

458
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 2: and once this is found out, then it's you know,

459
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 2: talking to Roland, talking to Jewel and go, okay, what's

460
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: going on here? You know? Is this something that's just

461
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 2: a an open type of marriage and this was an

462
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 2: accepted relationship. There's financial aspects that bind the three together

463
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: up and beyond the relationships, you know, with the ownership

464
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: of the restaurant, et cetera. So that's that's interesting.

465
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: What do you think about the separate bedrooms thing? Is

466
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: that surprising to you? Knowing he's married, and I do

467
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 1: think Jewel stays there.

468
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't think, you know, I'm not

469
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 2: overly surprised by that. I think it just depends on

470
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 2: what Thelma and Roland's relationship really is like, you know,

471
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 2: and it could just be a convenience aspect, you know,

472
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 2: whether maybe these these rooms above the restaurant are very small,

473
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 2: you know, or they just prefer to sleep separately when

474
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 2: they're not engaging together. You know. I don't know, you know,

475
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 2: I don't put a lot of weight on that right now,

476
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: you know, I think just the dynamics of the Thelma,

477
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 2: Roland and Jewel triangle, of course, is a red flag

478
00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: at least at this stage.

479
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: Okay, tell me tell you about the connection and how

480
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: you would travel from the apartment, which is by the ocean,

481
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: up to this monster hill to get to Roland's beautiful house.

482
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: The restaurant and the apartment are directly downhill from Roland's house.

483
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: And I will have two incredibly confusing maps for you

484
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 1: in just a few minutes. And thank you for You're

485
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: welcome for that. Sometimes I think that these are awful maps,

486
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: and then you look at them and go, well, this

487
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: is the best thing I've ever seen, Kate. Thank you

488
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 1: bring me more of these terrible maps, so we'll see

489
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: what you say. But to get from the apartment or

490
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: the cafe up to Roland's place in a car, there

491
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: are a lot of little hairpin turns that you would

492
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 1: have to get to. It's not easy. It's not a

493
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 1: straight shot. And then if you're going by foot, it

494
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 1: would have been a hill of a climb. It's several

495
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: steep staircases in the hillside. Thelma, and I'll tell you

496
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: a little bit more about this in a second had

497
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: developed a heart can and May used to drive her

498
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: up in her car to get to the top. If

499
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: she wanted to spend the night at Roland's house, and

500
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: then Thelma would drive down or maybe May would walk up,

501
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 1: and it didn't seem like a huge deal for May,

502
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: but it was substantial. I don't know if you want

503
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: to see that now, but it does come into play

504
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: about Thelma and how she would have gone from one

505
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: place to the other if she had a heart condition,

506
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: or we could get to her what happens to her.

507
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get to let's get to sort of the

508
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 2: heart of the matter, and then we can expand out

509
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: from there.

510
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: There's no sign of Thelma anywhere. May looks in the

511
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: house's too car garage, So I think I said this before.

512
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: On most days May is going to park her own

513
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: car in this garage, so she'll drive up, she'll park

514
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: her car or walk up or whatever, and then she'll

515
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: drive Thelma's car to the bottom of the cliff where

516
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 1: the cafe and the apartment are, so that Thelma doesn't

517
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: have to make this track because she fainted on the

518
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: set of a film, and her mom says, the doctor

519
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: diagnosed her with this heart condition. So what would that be.

520
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 1: Is that just a slow heart rate or I don't

521
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: know what that would even be. It could be anything,

522
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: I guess.

523
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: Just low blood pressure, you know, you know she stood

524
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 2: up too quickly, and yeah, so it just depends. But

525
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,479
Speaker 2: of course, you know, the heart condition is something that

526
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: has to be weighed in in terms of you know,

527
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 2: what happens to Thelma down the road, you know, is

528
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: this something where she could have had a fatal incident

529
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 2: and is found dead right now? Of course I know

530
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 2: nothing about what's going on with Elma.

531
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: So in the garage may finds Thelma's total kick ass car.

532
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: And I liked it so much that I included not

533
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: it because I couldn't find a photo of it, but

534
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: I included this type of car, so you probably know

535
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: it because you're smarty about cars. This is a chocolate

536
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: brown Lincoln Phaantin. Have you heard of that?

537
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've heard of that for sure.

538
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: I just wanted to show it to you. I mean,

539
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: this car, and not to talk about her looks, but

540
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: she would have looked gorgeous in this car, and she

541
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: had a driver much of the time. I mean, this

542
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: is what I mean by later on when we have

543
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: witnesses to different things. She would have stood out on

544
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: so many different levels. And I know that this is

545
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: still Hollywood, but this was a beautiful car.

546
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that's a head turner. If Thelma's a head turner.

547
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 2: So of course you know she's you know, she's driving

548
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 2: around in a vehicle like this. She's not trying to

549
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: be discreet, you know that, she's like here, I am Okay.

550
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 1: May sees her car. She is alarmed because she couldn't

551
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: find Thelma anywhere else. She looks inside the car, and

552
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: this is where we see Thelma's body. May does not

553
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: examine her at all. She just sees her slumped over,

554
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: and she gets very upset. Of course, she runs down

555
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: to the cafe, flying down those steep steps. She finds

556
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: a general manager. He calls the police. So this is

557
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: all Monday morning, and she was last seen Saturday night

558
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: as far as we know right now. So I can

559
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: tell you what her body looked like. But I also

560
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: can immediately talk about the autopsy too.

561
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 2: So you tell me.

562
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: I know you like autopsy stuff, but what do you think.

563
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let's uh, let's get into the crime scene

564
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: first in terms of understanding her body in context, you know,

565
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,959
Speaker 2: in sits you in the back of this car, and

566
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: then go into the autopsy.

567
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: So she has found slumped over the steering wheel. We

568
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: find out that her nose is broken and she was

569
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: bleeding from the mouth, but police think it's because she

570
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: passed out and hit her face against the steering wheel.

571
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,239
Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons is, this is an

572
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:47,479
Speaker 1: interesting bit here. May said the garage was closed and

573
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: that when she saw Thelma and she saw, you know,

574
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: a little bit of bleeding and she's laying over the

575
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: steering wheel, that she was unusually red. Her face was

576
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: really red. Let's kind of of start there. They're not

577
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: saying trauma, and their immediate response is not this is

578
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, somebody who's been beaten up. But what do

579
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: you kind of think so far the way that I've

580
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: laid it out, or do you need more info?

581
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: Well, I think with sort of the thumbnail sketch, broken nose,

582
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: bleeding out of the mouth, which you know possibly can

583
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: occur as a result of you know, the trauma to

584
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: the nose, in terms of evaluating the fracture to the nose,

585
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: you know, is you know, how much damage is truly there?

586
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: Is it consistent with somebody who's just now passes out

587
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: and nose hits a hard steering wheel or is there

588
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: more damage to that, And so that'd be something that

589
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: would be determined at autopsy, as well as what other

590
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: injuries she has on her body. You know, the red

591
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: kind of it sounds like her face is flush, and

592
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 2: you know, there's a variety of reasons why that can occur.

593
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: You know, one of the first things, just due to

594
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: the context of where she's found out in a car

595
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: inside a closed garage, is is it possible that there's

596
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 2: a carbon monoxide poisoning accidental? Potentially? You know, she was

597
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: sitting in that that car for too long? Is the

598
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: car still running when may you know, enters in? Does

599
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 2: she detect something's wrong? Is a car completely out of

600
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 2: gas but the ignition is turd like it's still running?

601
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: You know, then that might suggest that you know, she

602
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, drove into the garage, closed the garage

603
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: and stayed in there too long and then ultimately succumbed

604
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: to carbon monoxide. So there's that aspect, you know, is

605
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: there potentially does the heart condition weigh in? Is there

606
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: a circulatory type of issue that's causing the red flushing?

607
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: And then of course there's there's different acts of islence

608
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,479
Speaker 2: such as strangulation, you know, which could cause that that

609
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: red flushing. So at this point, I think, you know,

610
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 2: the investigators are, they're evaluating what's going on. It. It

611
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: is unusual to see a homicide victim just seated in

612
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 2: a car, slumped over the steering wheel, if it's not

613
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 2: a gunshot victim. You know, we often see that today

614
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: with shootings. But I'm assuming right now she's not a

615
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: gunshot victim or a stabbing victim or something like that.

616
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 2: And so now they're assessing things and reconstructing, and they're

617
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 2: probably going this very likely could just be an accidental

618
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: death or could be a natural if she had if

619
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: the heart condition weighed in as to the reason why

620
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: she ended up deceased inside this vehicle.

621
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think there's a lot of speculation about that.

622
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: Was it the heart condition that contributed to this? Did

623
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: she climb up all of those stairs herself? And then

624
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: something happened she got into the car. So let me

625
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: just tell you a couple of facts that are important

626
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: and then we can get to the autop seat. Number One.

627
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: May saw Thelma Saturday night before she went to an event,

628
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: and she said she's wearing the same clothing she was

629
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: wearing a mauve and silver dress and a mink coat

630
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: and lots of expensive jewelry. She had an expensive handbag

631
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: with her. None of it was touched. It's all there,

632
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,720
Speaker 1: so you know at first blush. She's been there since

633
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: Saturday night, early Sunday morning, whenever you know she left

634
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: this event. So they're trying to get a timeline together,

635
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,479
Speaker 1: but that's going to come into questions soon. The other

636
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: note is that police do find the key in the

637
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: ignition to her fancy car. It was turned to the

638
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: on position, but the car was not running. So this

639
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: is out of my pay grade. So I'm just going

640
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: to tell you what it is and you can tell

641
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: me what you think. This is a combustible engine, so

642
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: there is no catalytic converter. I don't even know what

643
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: that was. I didn't until I had to pay for one,

644
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 1: and then I found out really quick witted.

645
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: Expensive because of the precious metals inside there.

646
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's the worst thing you can

647
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 1: pay for. So I can think my kids for all

648
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: the driving with them with a new catlet converter. He said,

649
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: how did you put this many miles on this car?

650
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,760
Speaker 1: It's only a couple of years old. So the police

651
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: say that this is because the car's engine, because it's

652
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: a combustible engine, needs oxygen to run. So if something

653
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: happens and the car has turned on, once the garage

654
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: is filled up with carbon monoxide, there's no more oxygen

655
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: and the engine would just cut off. Does that sound right?

656
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: Yes, it does.

657
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: What happens now with the engine? First of all, what

658
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: kind of engines do we have?

659
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 2: Now?

660
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: I know we should know that I should know that.

661
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: It's the same, you know, in terms of for gasoline engines.

662
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: In essence, they're just combustion engines, and so you know,

663
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 2: they're fundamentally operate the same way as this particular engine,

664
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 2: just obviously more advanced. You need oxygen for fire. Well,

665
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: that's in essence what happens inside the cylinder of you know,

666
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: one of the chambers within these engines, and you know this,

667
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 2: this particular car possibly had anywhere from eight to twelve cylinders,

668
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: and there's a spark plug in each cylinder, and then

669
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 2: there's a source of fuel that sprays into the cylinder,

670
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: and so now you have this gas vapor and then

671
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 2: as the cylinder comes up and compresses that gas, there's

672
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: a spark from the spark plug that ignites the gas

673
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 2: and in order for that gas to actually combust to

674
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 2: produce pressure to force the cylinder down, which ultimately is

675
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: the mechanism that is translated into being able to move

676
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: the vehicle. Once there's no oxygen, that combustion engine can't

677
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 2: operate anymore. So if that garage filled up with sufficient

678
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 2: carbon monoxide, I would say, yeah, theoretically, it's possible that

679
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 2: the engine just died and had been left running for

680
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 2: a period of time.

681
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's keep that in mind, because you know,

682
00:36:58,320 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: there are a lot of theories that are going to

683
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: be flowing around nineteen thirty five LA. Pretty soon. There

684
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: is someone who comes, a doctor who comes and examines

685
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: her body. His name is JP Sampson. When doctor Sampson

686
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: looks at Thelma's body, he says, she has been dead

687
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: for about twelve hours. Now. I don't know how he

688
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: determines that. I don't think they use liver temperature, but

689
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: maybe it was rigor. But just doing math, let's say

690
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: this happens at nine am. That puts her death at

691
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: nine pm Sunday night. But she's wearing the clothes from

692
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: Saturday night.

693
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 2: So you know, one of the things I want to

694
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 2: address about her clothes. You know, may sees her leaving

695
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 2: Saturday night in those clothes. What we don't know is

696
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: it possible that she stayed in those clothes alive for

697
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 2: how long period of time? More did she redress into

698
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 2: those clothes, you know? And those are the clothes she

699
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 2: came back to Roland's place in this vehicle. So it's

700
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 2: kind of hard to draw a firm conclusion that whatever

701
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 2: happened to Thelma happened Saturday night because we just don't

702
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 2: know anything about her state of dress, and you know

703
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 2: how long she had those clothes on before she ended

704
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 2: up dying. So it's interesting it. I would say, what

705
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 2: you could conclude as well, she did not get back

706
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: to her residence or a location where she had closed

707
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: that she would be wanting to change into, you know,

708
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: that would be part of it. To try to timeline

709
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 2: exactly when something happened to Thelma based on her dress

710
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 2: would be tough.

711
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: Yes, I have had times in my youth where I

712
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: have been in the same clothing for six years and

713
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: I wasn't camping, I was living in New York, So yes,

714
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 1: well we'll see I don't trust the twelve hour timeline either.

715
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 1: I guess we'll just see how this progresses well.

716
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 2: And even the pathologist saying she's been dead for twelve hours,

717
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 2: that's just a rough rough guess.

718
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: So we've got the autopsy. Thelma's brain and organs are

719
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: described in the autopsy report as scarlet red of blood,

720
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: and her body is also discolored red. Her blood is

721
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: found to have a seventy five to eighty percent saturation

722
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: of carbon monoxide, which.

723
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 2: Is classic, you know, this is when you see somebody

724
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: like this and at autopsy the pathologist is immediately going, okay,

725
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 2: we've got carbon monoxide. You know, this is even before

726
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 2: there's any type of toxicology testing going on. It's that

727
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: this is almost diagnostic, you know. And the question is

728
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 2: is you know, at this point, okay, is this is

729
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: it accidental? Is it natural? Or is there a chance

730
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: that there is violence inflicted on her to a point

731
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 2: to where she is unconscious and is left inside this

732
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 2: garage and now the carbon monoxide is building up from

733
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: the running car and then she succumbs to the carbon

734
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 2: monoxide poisoning. But the reality is is that there was

735
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 2: a violent act at the hands of another you know,

736
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,439
Speaker 2: so too early to really draw a conclusion, but most

737
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: certainly at this point unless you tell me of other

738
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: significant injuries to her. At this point, carbon monoxide sounds

739
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 2: like the primary cause of death.

740
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 1: Yes, and there are no other significant injuries other than

741
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: what I had mentioned before, a little bleeding at the

742
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: mouth and a broken nose, which investigators conclude very quickly

743
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 1: is because you know, when carbon monoxide started to take effect,

744
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: that her face hit the steering wheel, which would have

745
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: been a very heavy steering wheel, would probably or mahoggitting,

746
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 1: I don't know what it would have been, and broke

747
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: her nose. The question I think that is going to

748
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: come as is this suicide? Is this an accident? How

749
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 1: would this have been an accident? Or is this something else?

750
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: Because there are a lot of complicated things happening.

751
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 2: Right now, it appears that the medical findings aren't differentiating

752
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,439
Speaker 2: the manner of death. So there is no sign of strangulation,

753
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: there's no defensive injuries obviously I've already asked, there's no

754
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:24,280
Speaker 2: stab wounds, no gunshot wounds, etc. So fundamentally, you've got

755
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 2: a fractured nose, bleeding out of the mouth, and carbon

756
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 2: monoxide poisoning. Basically, all types of manners of death potentially

757
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 2: are on the table, though homicide kind of becomes less

758
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,240
Speaker 2: likely but not eliminated. Based on these circumstances.

759
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk in a little bit about what

760
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: she did that night, who she was with, and the

761
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 1: circumstances about why homicide definitely needs to stay on the table.

762
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: The corner, so there was doctor Sampson, but there's also

763
00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: a corner, separate person who said after his examination and

764
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: that Thelma had been dead more like thirty hours when

765
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: she was found, which of course is much closer to

766
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: the Saturday night mark. Again, what's reliable here and what isn't.

767
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: I don't have notes on what they were using. I

768
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: think it was probably rigor. I don't think they were

769
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 1: using liver temperature at this point.

770
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 2: You know, rigor would be part of it. You know,

771
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 2: that's one of the first things that the pathologists are

772
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 2: going to note in terms of how long the body

773
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 2: has been dead, you know, the body temperature. You know,

774
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 2: this was occurring mid December, you know, but you're also

775
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,959
Speaker 2: dealing with la you know, on the coastal front there.

776
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 2: You know, it's maybe seventy degrees in the winter time

777
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: at times. You know, it's not excessively hot, it's not

778
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 2: excessively cold. My assessment what I would want to be

779
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 2: taking a look at. You know, they're drawing a conclusion

780
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: that she hit her nose on the steering wheel. If

781
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 2: that's what happened, you know, you imagine her head going forward.

782
00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 2: She's basically collapsing and probably doesn't revive after that point. Right, So, now,

783
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 2: are the blood flows out of the nose, the blood

784
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 2: patterns inside the vehicle consistent with that last movement of

785
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: her body that caused the bleeding to occur, or is

786
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 2: there blood in discrete locations that would not line up

787
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: with this idea of just slumping forward, as if she

788
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 2: let's say, somebody punched her in the nose, she gets

789
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 2: knocked out, and then that person puts her into a

790
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,959
Speaker 2: seated position in the driver's seat, you know, and leaves

791
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 2: the vehicle running inside this closed garage. That's where now

792
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 2: you have to start really paying attention to the details.

793
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure you have those details.

794
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: Well, let's see, we do have a lot of information

795
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: about what she did that night, and you're right, like

796
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: more theories and maybe a little bit more information do

797
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,479
Speaker 1: you think that carbon monoxide poisoning would throw off time

798
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 1: of death estimations at all or.

799
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: No, generally not. Now, part of what you know we

800
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: look at at a crime scene is lividity. Blood settles

801
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,439
Speaker 2: with gravity. After you die, your heart is no longer pumping,

802
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: and so as Thelma is seated there slumped over, heart stops.

803
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 2: Blood settles to the lower parts of her body, showing

804
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: the position that she's in. That lividity is something that

805
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 2: I would be paying attention to to see had she

806
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 2: laid in a position different than the position that she

807
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 2: is ultimately found in. Lividity sets after a certain period

808
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 2: of time, So if somebody has moved prior to the

809
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 2: lividity setting, then the lividity the blood shifts inside the

810
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 2: body and so the original lividity pattern is changed. But

811
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 2: once the lividity pattern sets, when the body's moved from

812
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: the time that they die to the time that they

813
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 2: ultimately are found, the libidity will show that. And the

814
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 2: extent of the lividity is possibly something the pathologists may

815
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 2: be relying upon to get a better sense in terms

816
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: of of how long somebody's been dead under select circumstances,

817
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: the carbon monoxide poisoning can make it tougher to see

818
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 2: the faint lividity aspects just because of the coloration due

819
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 2: to the carbon monoxide. Various decomposational processes are occurring, and

820
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 2: if she's been dead for thirty hours, it's possible you

821
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 2: could start to see some of like her veins become

822
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 2: darker as the bacteria are starting to decompose the blood

823
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 2: inside the veins, they become very prominent looking. This is

824
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 2: what we call marbling, and that possibly can occur within

825
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: that thirty hour period of time. Or you could start

826
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 2: to see the dissension of the you know, the bloating

827
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 2: of the abdomen, you know, as the gases from the

828
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 2: gut bacteria start to build up, or you get a

829
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: greenish tinge to the abdomen. You know, this is indicating

830
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 2: that she's probably been dead longer than twelve hours. So

831
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 2: the pathologist, if he's doing proper documentation in his autopsy report,

832
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 2: if he's saying she's been dead for thirty hours, then

833
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 2: he should be listing the characteristics that he is observing

834
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: to come to that opinion.

835
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: Well, as we wrap up this first episode, I'm going

836
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: to talk about why this is a two parter because

837
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 1: there were a lot of suspicions about her death. There

838
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 1: were a lot of things that investigators thought were really odd,

839
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: and her mother really thought was odd. So Number one,

840
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: we've already noted that her car is parked in the

841
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: garage at the top of this massive hill, and I

842
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: will give you a hint for the next episode. She

843
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: did not drive it. She had a driver who took

844
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: her to an event and then took her and dropped

845
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: her off at three am at her apartment. Oh right,

846
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: And her car had been at Roland's house up the

847
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 1: hill all day. She just didn't want to deal with driving,

848
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: and she had a driver, you know, take her places

849
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: that day. Her mother says that there is no way

850
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: at three in the morning she climbed the steps that

851
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,439
Speaker 1: would have just taken her out completely. She had never

852
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: done it before to get up to Roland's house. How

853
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: did she get up to Roland's house? And she's also

854
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,839
Speaker 1: had some threats in the last couple of months, so

855
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot happening with this story.

856
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the plot thickens.

857
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 1: Mary stole that from some hard boiled detective novel you read.

858
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: Have you ever said that in real life? The plot thickens.

859
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,879
Speaker 2: No, not that I can recall except now.

860
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: Okay, So next week we will talk more about that

861
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,760
Speaker 1: absolutely fantastic Thelmatod and the tragedy that is her death,

862
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: whatever happened to her.

863
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 2: Hopefully, by the end of the next episode we will

864
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 2: get to the bottom of this.

865
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: I hope so too. I will see you next week.

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00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 2: All right, kay, thank you. Thanks.

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00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

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00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to a exactly wrightmedia

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00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 2: dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

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00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

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00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

872
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

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00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

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00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

877
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:27,280
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

878
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,280
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

879
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

880
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

881
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked My Life Solving America's

882
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 1: cold cases is also available now.

883
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 2: Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.