Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2: All right, well, we have a very special guest in studio.
Speaker 2: I love saying that in studio with us. Elizabeth Smart,
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on wind Down.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: We are so this is It's hard because I don't
Speaker 2: want to say that. I'm so excited to talk to
Speaker 2: you because obviously your story is is a tough one
Speaker 2: and it's I can't imagine how hard it is for you.
Speaker 2: But thank you for doing what you do because it's
Speaker 2: helping so many people. So for that, I'm excited for
Speaker 2: that conversation.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: As you were walking in, we were chatting and kind
Speaker 2: of getting to know each other and I found out
Speaker 2: that you also have a Scottish husband.
Speaker 4: So do I do?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Aberdeen from Alveldeen. Yeah, it spent a year an
Speaker 5: aveultin coat you.
Speaker 2: He used to be the assistant coach in Aberdeen.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 1: When I told my husband that I was coming to
Speaker 1: speak with Jana, he looked her up and then he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's married to a footballer.
Speaker 3: Oh he was a coach.
Speaker 1: Oh he he's an Aberdeen And I was like and
Speaker 1: he's like, oh he spells his middle or he spells
Speaker 1: his name the same.
Speaker 3: Way I spell my middle name.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you kind of sound Scottish as you're talking.
Speaker 5: Well, yes, Scottish is good. Jana's is Russian.
Speaker 4: Mine just turns Jamaican and it's a bitch. I don't
Speaker 4: know what happens to me. Wait, do you have a
Speaker 4: Scottish Can you impersonate your husband?
Speaker 1: I feel like I do, Okay, but if you were here,
Speaker 1: he'd be like, stop embarrassing yourself, Like that's so bad.
Speaker 3: Just stop.
Speaker 2: What is like a phrase he usually says, and try
Speaker 2: it in Scottish.
Speaker 1: Don't like, Yeah, that's great, that's so good, that's great.
Speaker 4: How long have you been married?
Speaker 3: Thirteen years?
Speaker 2: Okay, I think there's hope for you, Kraamer. I just
Speaker 2: like he said, I sound Russian. The only thing I
Speaker 2: can say, which he says all the time, is.
Speaker 3: She thinks she can say it still.
Speaker 4: I want to be supportive, but I got to tell you,
Speaker 4: I'm not sure what that was.
Speaker 3: I and I love you. You do a lot of things
Speaker 3: really well.
Speaker 2: I know, I just can't, I know, really can't.
Speaker 5: Well that's an Aberdeen fun Yeah?
Speaker 3: Is I mean Manchester United? More?
Speaker 1: But when Aberdeen plays. He always has his Aberdeen kid. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I did not grow up playing soccer.
Speaker 3: I don't football. You mean, well, yes, I don't play it.
Speaker 3: I didn't watch it.
Speaker 1: But now now he's like, Elizabeth, do you understand what
Speaker 1: off sides is known?
Speaker 3: Like R offside is?
Speaker 4: I was like no, same still No, I'm a year
Speaker 4: into our marriage and were I still have no idea.
Speaker 4: I didn't know anything about soccer when I met him,
Speaker 4: like nothing football.
Speaker 2: Sorry, let's talk about the pace of your husband's.
Speaker 5: A life pace they have a problem with my laid back?
Speaker 2: Is that also your husband?
Speaker 3: He just doesn't answer until he's ready.
Speaker 1: Like I can speak to him all day and he'll
Speaker 1: just like sit there. I don't even know if he's
Speaker 1: listening until he's ready to answer. So it might be
Speaker 1: I feel thirty seconds later, might be like ten minutes
Speaker 1: and I'm like, have you been listening?
Speaker 4: He's like, what, Dana, how do you feel about that sentence?
Speaker 2: I just feel seen as well?
Speaker 4: Good?
Speaker 2: No, But I will say though, and I don't know
Speaker 2: if you've was he your first serious relationship?
Speaker 3: Your husband? I mean I dated a lot, sure, but sure?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And you guys have two kids, three kids, three kids,
Speaker 2: what are the ages?
Speaker 4: Nine?
Speaker 3: Seven and my youngest just turned six.
Speaker 2: I feel like they're amazing men. That's one thing I've
Speaker 2: dated as well of plenty of times, and he was.
Speaker 4: There's such just something about am I on one today, Kristin.
Speaker 4: Really I just couldn't love you Moore. I think I
Speaker 4: also just miss you. So every word you're saying, I'm
Speaker 4: like hanging on because I just feel like I haven't
Speaker 4: seen you, but you really are gragging me up. There
Speaker 4: is something about Scottish men though. They just do it
Speaker 4: better in a lot of ways.
Speaker 3: Wow, I'm just saying.
Speaker 4: It everything and love and romance and one thing I
Speaker 4: can say, and maybe this is just observing, because we
Speaker 4: went over for the wedding and we got to.
Speaker 2: Be like we were all just in Scotland in July.
Speaker 2: We got married there, well, congratulations, thank you so much.
Speaker 4: It was really fun to be like submerged, you know,
Speaker 4: and we all stayed in a state together, like a
Speaker 4: little castle together. So it was like a little bit
Speaker 4: like Real World meets Real Housewives of Scotland. I don't know,
Speaker 4: but we had a really really good time. One thing
Speaker 4: I observed about Scottish men is the certainty that they
Speaker 4: have and I don't know if they firmly believe what
Speaker 4: they're saying, but it feels like it. So with every
Speaker 4: decision made, I feel like, like, even when Alan gets
Speaker 4: in the room, I feel like I fix my posture,
Speaker 4: like I'm like, okay, we're like he's They're just very
Speaker 4: like assertive but also so certain. Does that feel fair?
Speaker 4: I think it's fair to say they don't do anything halfway?
Speaker 2: Yees.
Speaker 1: And then for me, not that I think I do
Speaker 1: things halfway, but now being married to someone, I feel
Speaker 1: like he holds me to like an even higher expectation
Speaker 1: and be like, well, did you ask this? Did you
Speaker 1: ask that Elizabeth? Did you get any of the details whatsoever?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I thought I did, but apparently not.
Speaker 4: Is there a little inflexibility? This question goes to just
Speaker 4: the ladies, they're very Yeah, feels that way, strong suggestions. Wow,
Speaker 4: that was delicately right, But we'll go away from that, bab.
Speaker 4: I don't want you to feel Scottish Spousal Support Group.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so I'm going to read a piece of
Speaker 2: this and then The abduction of Elizabeth Smart was one
Speaker 2: of the most followed child abduction cases of our time.
Speaker 2: Elizabeth was abducted on June fifth, two thousand and two.
Speaker 2: Her captors controlled her by threatening to kill her and
Speaker 2: her family if she tried to escape. For those that
Speaker 2: do not know your story, I know it very very clear,
Speaker 2: very I mean I just remember following it on the news.
Speaker 2: I mean it was everywhere.
Speaker 4: But for those that are listening that don't know your story,
Speaker 4: could you tell us from your words?
Speaker 3: Sure? Yeah.
Speaker 1: So born and raised in Utah, Salt Lake City, and
Speaker 1: like genuinely never thought anything interesting, out of ordinary crazy
Speaker 1: could happen to us. I mean I did not hear
Speaker 1: people's talk about crime. I didn't hear people talk about abuse.
Speaker 1: I didn't hear people talk about bad things that happened
Speaker 1: in our neighborhood where I grew up. I mean, the
Speaker 1: worst thing that I remember hearing people talk about girl
Speaker 1: up was I mean, if someone elderly was sick and died,
Speaker 1: that kind of felt like that was like the worst thing.
Speaker 1: So it felt like a very safe neighborhood. It felt
Speaker 1: like a very nice neighborhood. It just didn't feel like
Speaker 1: anything could happen, And I mean, why why would it?
Speaker 1: As far as I could tell my family didn't have
Speaker 1: enemies or I don't know. I don't think there was
Speaker 1: anyone that like actively hated us that I knew of anyway.
Speaker 1: So it was just something that I never even contemplated happening. Plus, like,
Speaker 1: I'm just not I'm just not like a rebellious person.
Speaker 3: I'm not like a I'm pretty, I'm pretty mild. Like
Speaker 3: I'm kind of a boying person truthfully.
Speaker 1: And so I just when people would talk about oh,
Speaker 1: stranger danger or you know, don't take don't take candy
Speaker 1: from people you don't know, or don't walk by yourself
Speaker 1: at night, don't like, don't do this, don't do that,
Speaker 1: those cautions never bothered me because I would have never
Speaker 1: done those things anyway. And I just never thought I
Speaker 1: would be in that position myself. So it was right
Speaker 1: before I was about to graduate from junior High. Very
Speaker 1: excited to graduate from junior High.
Speaker 3: I was quite an awkward person growing up, and.
Speaker 1: I just was looking forward to high school. And I
Speaker 1: remember going to bed that night and I shared I
Speaker 1: didn't just.
Speaker 3: Share a fourteen yes, yeah, I was fourteen. I didn't
Speaker 3: just share a room.
Speaker 1: I shared a bed with my younger sister, who was
Speaker 1: about five years younger than I am, and I mean
Speaker 1: it was a good night, it was a good day,
Speaker 1: like nothing bad had happened. And the next thing I
Speaker 1: remember was hearing a man's voice in my bedroom, which
Speaker 1: I didn't immediately respond to, because how could that, How
Speaker 1: could that be real? I mean, my room was on
Speaker 1: the top floor of our house, wasn't like on the
Speaker 1: ground level. Why would a man be in my room
Speaker 1: and weren't allowed in my room like that just couldn't happen.
Speaker 1: So I didn't immediately respond because I thought it just
Speaker 1: it had to be a dream or a nightmare or
Speaker 1: I don't know something. So I just laid there and
Speaker 1: then I heard the voice again, saying the same words again,
Speaker 1: saying I have a knife at your neck. Don't make
Speaker 1: a sound, get up and come with me. And it
Speaker 1: was that second time that he said that that I
Speaker 1: actually felt a knife lying across my neck and I
Speaker 1: could feel his hand on my arm try and pull
Speaker 1: me out of bed, And I remember opening my eyes
Speaker 1: and sure enough there was this man, this strange man,
Speaker 1: standing in my room timeing to go with him, And like,
Speaker 1: of everything that you prepared for in life, nobody talks about,
Speaker 1: what do you do if someone breaks into your home
Speaker 1: and kidnaps you out of bed. I mean, all the
Speaker 1: safety education you're given is like if you're out by yourself,
Speaker 1: if you're out at night, if you like, nobody talks
Speaker 1: about what do you do if someone breaks into your
Speaker 1: home or crawls into your bed, Like what do you
Speaker 1: do if your own space is violated? And since I
Speaker 1: didn't have the education, I didn't feel like there's anything
Speaker 1: I could do, so I did as I was told.
Speaker 1: I mean, I never had anyone hold a knife to
Speaker 1: my neck before, Like what was I supposed to do?
Speaker 1: I remember he led me out through my house. He
Speaker 1: led me up into the mountains behind my home, which
Speaker 1: really like it's very difficult to get there. I mean
Speaker 1: I have since hiked back there a number of times.
Speaker 1: And one of the most memorable times that I hiked
Speaker 1: back was after I released my book, My Story About
Speaker 1: I guess it's probably been about I don't know, ten
Speaker 1: tenish years ago maybe, and I did this big sit
Speaker 1: down interview with Meredith Vieira, and she wanted to hike.
Speaker 3: Back to where I was held captive.
Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, that's fine, and the camera
Speaker 1: crew was like Okay, yeah, like, how far do you
Speaker 1: think is I was like, oh, it's probably like three
Speaker 1: and a half miles, like not super far. I was like,
Speaker 1: but just so you know, like it's a pretty difficult hike.
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh, well, you know, I.
Speaker 3: Just ran a marathon like a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 1: I think I can handle like three and a half
Speaker 1: miles or you know, like less than four miles. I
Speaker 1: think I can handle that. I'm like, okay, Like, but
Speaker 1: I've warned you anyway. We start hiking up to get there,
Speaker 1: and I mean you're like, sure, you start on a
Speaker 1: nice trail, but then you turn off to a place
Speaker 1: where there is no trail and you're fighting through brush
Speaker 1: and then there's a stream that you're fighting up through
Speaker 1: and there's like poison ivy and there's always felt like
Speaker 1: there was so many like wasps and I don't know,
Speaker 1: bugs that can sting, right, And then you have to
Speaker 1: go what felt like almost straight up the mountainside and
Speaker 1: it's a very steep climb, and I mean it was
Speaker 1: just loose kind of dirt, loose gravel, so it was
Speaker 1: not it was not solid footing at all.
Speaker 3: And I remember at one point.
Speaker 1: The cameraman just sat down and said I'm done, can't
Speaker 1: go any farther. And I was like, I told you,
Speaker 1: I told you not not that I enjoy other people's pain,
Speaker 1: I don't, but there was a moment that I felt
Speaker 1: a little bit vindicated.
Speaker 4: Yet twenty six point two. Yeah, marathon runner, Yeah that's right, Baron,
Speaker 4: thank you.
Speaker 1: Anyway, So it was very difficult to get back to
Speaker 1: and you would never have just stumbled across it, would
Speaker 1: never have just found it.
Speaker 3: I mean it was it was hard.
Speaker 1: Anyway, he took me back there, where as soon as
Speaker 1: he got me back there, he he claimed that I
Speaker 1: was now his wife, and I was raped and then
Speaker 1: I was chained up. And for the next nine months,
Speaker 1: I mean he and he had he had his actual
Speaker 1: wife there waiting for him, and she helped him. So
Speaker 1: she knew that you were she knew. Yeah, yeah, she knew.
Speaker 1: She was like complicit in everything. And yeah, the next
Speaker 1: nine months, I mean, they had found that the best
Speaker 1: way to manipulate and control people was through religion. And
Speaker 1: I think if you step back and you look at
Speaker 1: that time period even more. I mean I was kidnapped
Speaker 1: in June of two thousand and two, but that prior
Speaker 1: September of two thousand and one was when nine to
Speaker 1: eleven happened, when the Twin Towers came down. And yes,
Speaker 1: I was a teenager, but so maybe I didn't see
Speaker 1: the full perspective of everything. But even in my teenage
Speaker 1: like vision of the world, it seemed like everyone was
Speaker 1: just like extra sensitive about any form of extremism. I mean,
Speaker 1: I remember talk of a mosque in Salt Lake City,
Speaker 1: or and it was whether it should be torn down
Speaker 1: or just there was some I can't remember all the details,
Speaker 1: but I just remember it was like controversial and just
Speaker 1: everyone kind of felt scared, and any form of extremism,
Speaker 1: especially around religion, was scary to people. And I think
Speaker 1: that my captors recognized that, and I think they used
Speaker 1: that as a tool to get away with everything that
Speaker 1: they wanted. And it had been so effective in getting
Speaker 1: people to stay away from them, or giving them what
Speaker 1: they wanted, or just manipulating the people around them, that
Speaker 1: they just continued on with that.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's how he justified kidnapping me.
Speaker 1: That's how he justified all of the abuse, the rape,
Speaker 1: the sexual violence that happened to me during my captivity.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's how they justified everything. That's how they
Speaker 1: justified trying to kidnap more young girls. I mean, thank goodness,
Speaker 1: they were never successful, but they did try. During my captivity,
Speaker 1: they took me out of Utah to southern California, San Diego,
Speaker 1: right outside of San Diego, yeah, Lakeside, and we were
Speaker 1: for about four and a half months.
Speaker 4: How did you they travel you? Just by car by.
Speaker 3: So greyhound bus took us there.
Speaker 4: And were they like holding onto you tight?
Speaker 2: What was they like?
Speaker 4: Would they say like if you scream or you run,
Speaker 4: I will yes, yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean for all of the time leading up to
Speaker 1: my leading up to going to California, my captors they
Speaker 1: I mean, they threatened me constantly. It was always like,
Speaker 1: if you don't do what we tell you to, will
Speaker 1: kill you. If we don't kill you, we'll kill your family.
Speaker 3: They would.
Speaker 1: When when Brian Mitchell would go down into Salt Lake,
Speaker 1: he would bring back newspaper articles or missing flyers about
Speaker 1: the surch that was being put on for me, and
Speaker 1: he would talk about how there were missing posters and
Speaker 1: all of the windows, and how every magazine and newspaper
Speaker 1: article had my face in it, and just how all
Speaker 1: of Salt Lake City was searching for me, but how
Speaker 1: nobody would ever be able to find me because he
Speaker 1: had me, And honestly, it seemed like it was true.
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember times very early on that I
Speaker 1: actually heard someone yelling my name. It was far away,
Speaker 1: it wasn't like it was close. It was very faint
Speaker 1: and very distant, but I heard someone yelling my name.
Speaker 1: And then I remember another time, I mean, helicopter's flying
Speaker 1: just what felt like right over us, so much so
Speaker 1: that the trees around us were shaking, and that the
Speaker 1: tent he had me hidden it was shaking, but nobody
Speaker 1: found us. I mean, I remember airplanes flying low overhead,
Speaker 1: like repeatedly searching and searching and searching, and nobody found me.
Speaker 3: So I mean, it did feel like it did feel
Speaker 3: like he was right. It felt like he was invincible.
Speaker 1: And the few times that I tried to to escape,
Speaker 1: that I tried to run away or try to stand
Speaker 1: up for myself or try to talk back, I was
Speaker 1: always punished for it. I was always like I was
Speaker 1: always in trouble. So it just got to a point
Speaker 1: where I was like, I just need to stay alive.
Speaker 1: I just need to do whatever I can to stay alive.
Speaker 1: It does not matter what it is. And so it
Speaker 1: eventually was staying quiet. It was keeping my mouth shut.
Speaker 1: It was doing what they told me to do. And
Speaker 1: even if that meant going out into public and just
Speaker 1: keeping my mouth shut, that meant that in my mind,
Speaker 1: that meant that I would stay alive. That meant that
Speaker 1: I needed to do what they told me to do,
Speaker 1: and I would survive another day.
Speaker 3: And so I did.
Speaker 1: And I think unless you're in a situation where you
Speaker 1: feel like your safety, your well being, your life is
Speaker 1: really on the line, I think it's really difficult for
Speaker 1: other people to understand. I mean, I think even I
Speaker 1: feel like there's a lot of commonality actually between like
Speaker 1: victims of sexual assault like my story, or abduction or
Speaker 1: great victims and victims of domestic violence, even because from
Speaker 1: the outside you can't always understand, well, why didn't you yell,
Speaker 1: Why didn't you scream?
Speaker 3: Why didn't you run?
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've
Speaker 1: been questioned like that. But then I've spoken and worked
Speaker 1: with so many other victims who have been in like
Speaker 1: domestically abusive marriages, and they talk about how, no, it's
Speaker 1: not just easy, like it looks like I have a
Speaker 1: card or a credit card. It looks like I have
Speaker 1: a phone, looks like I have a car. It looks
Speaker 1: like I can just like jump in and drive out.
Speaker 1: But it's never that.
Speaker 4: Straightforward, or you have kids and you have to stay.
Speaker 1: Exactly, There's always there's always something more and or like
Speaker 1: you've just been systematically decimated so that you feel like
Speaker 1: you don't have any value, you don't have any worth.
Speaker 1: Why would anyone believe you over for me? In my case,
Speaker 1: my captors, I mean they were claiming they were servants
Speaker 1: of God, and they were adults. I was a teenager.
Speaker 1: Why would anyone believe adult a teenager over adults. Why
Speaker 1: would anyone believe someone who's potentially more of a liar
Speaker 1: a teenager versus someone claiming to do the work of
Speaker 1: God adults. I mean, they just seemed like there was
Speaker 1: such an imbalance of power and belief.
Speaker 3: Why would anybody believe me and risk their safety for me?
Speaker 2: Were you ever in your brain working out like how
Speaker 2: you can escape? Or was it just as active like
Speaker 2: I'm going to stay alive every day and this is
Speaker 2: what I have to do.
Speaker 3: I mean, early on, I always thought about how I
Speaker 3: could escape. I remember I remember.
Speaker 1: The second he got me into this camp, this hitting
Speaker 1: camp site, just thinking as soon as I get a chance,
Speaker 1: I'm going to run away. I mean, the whole time
Speaker 1: he took me up into the mountains, I remember thinking,
Speaker 1: I'm looking for my chance. I'm looking for my opportunity,
Speaker 1: Like where can I run? But I mean a lot
Speaker 1: of what we were hiking through. I mean it was
Speaker 1: like a very steep, narrow ravine and we were coming
Speaker 1: our way up the bottom. I mean, if I ran,
Speaker 1: and he had me in front of him, so I mean,
Speaker 1: uphill was my only option. And I mean like no matter, yeah,
Speaker 1: if you want to admit it or deny it. But
Speaker 1: like men and women are different. I mean ironically now
Speaker 1: I run marathons, and I trained for marathons. But no
Speaker 1: matter how much I run, no matter how long I run,
Speaker 1: no matter how hard I tried to like improve my speed,
Speaker 1: like my husband will still beat me. And he doesn't train,
Speaker 1: he doesn't do anything well. He plays football once a week,
Speaker 1: but like it's just faster, Like there's nothing I can
Speaker 1: change about that. And so as he was taking me
Speaker 1: up into the mountains, like even though I was looking
Speaker 1: for a chance, and I was actually honestly so worried
Speaker 1: that I had missed my chance.
Speaker 3: I was so worried that like, maybe there was.
Speaker 1: An opportunity to escape, to run away, and I had
Speaker 1: missed it, or I was too scared to take it.
Speaker 1: I remember being so scared of that thought that night. Now,
Speaker 1: of course, looking back and like replaying that night, there
Speaker 1: was never a chance. I mean he purposely stood right
Speaker 1: behind me. He had his knife on me for almost
Speaker 1: the whole night, and even when he put his knife away,
Speaker 1: he was physically holding onto me. I mean, there really
Speaker 1: was no opportunity for me to run away.
Speaker 2: Did you recognize him when he like abducted you. Do
Speaker 2: you remember being like I remember him seeing me at
Speaker 2: the park, or seeing him at my school or something.
Speaker 2: Was he targeting you?
Speaker 3: Not immediately?
Speaker 1: No, I did not recognize him immediately. It wasn't until
Speaker 1: we were almost too this hidden campsite up in the
Speaker 1: mountains that I realized who he was. And even then,
Speaker 1: I mean, it had been the last time that I
Speaker 1: saw him. It was October November, like where at he well,
Speaker 1: I had been out school close shopping with my mom,
Speaker 1: like in September, right around the be end of the
Speaker 1: school year. And actually it wasn't even just me, like
Speaker 1: I had some of my brothers and my sister. We
Speaker 1: were all out with my mom and we were looking
Speaker 1: at clothes and he was in downtown Salt Lake and
Speaker 1: he was begging for money. But instead of asking for
Speaker 1: money from my mom, he asked her for work, and
Speaker 1: she said she was like, I don't have any work,
Speaker 1: but you can call my husband, and so she gave
Speaker 1: him my dad's phone number, which he proceeded to call
Speaker 1: my dad and asking, you know, do you have work?
Speaker 1: And my dad had been building our family home. I
Speaker 1: think he was building our family home my whole life.
Speaker 1: But he was like, oh, like, I think I've got
Speaker 1: some I don't remember if it was root work or
Speaker 1: yard work, but he had some work. He's like, you
Speaker 1: can come and help me outside the house, Like you're
Speaker 1: not allowed inside, but you can come help me outside.
Speaker 3: And so he came one time.
Speaker 1: But all it was was him seeing me out school
Speaker 1: close shopping with my mom just a few seconds, and
Speaker 1: he had decided in that in those few seconds that
Speaker 1: I was gonna be the one who's going to kidnap.
Speaker 1: That was the only reason why he called my dad
Speaker 1: to find out where we lived, and I remember when
Speaker 1: I realized who he was. I remember turning to him
Speaker 1: and being like, well, like my parents tried to help you,
Speaker 1: like you asked for work, Like they didn't invite you over,
Speaker 1: they weren't just like handing it out you asked them,
Speaker 1: Like they went out of their way to try to
Speaker 1: help you, give you something that you asked for.
Speaker 3: And this like your kidnapping me.
Speaker 1: And just I mean, he didn't give straight answers. Initially,
Speaker 1: he'd just say things like he'd just say things like, oh,
Speaker 1: all will be made known in due time, like you
Speaker 1: know this is like all will be made known.
Speaker 3: I mean, he just was not speak straightforward.
Speaker 4: Was there any point in this process that he revealed
Speaker 4: a goal like I want money, I want your life,
Speaker 4: I want you with me for the rest of my life,
Speaker 4: like what was And obviously we can't rationalize with absolutely insanity,
Speaker 4: But is there at any point that he's describing to
Speaker 4: you like what he wanted out of this?
Speaker 1: So the first night, yeah, he said, almost straight off
Speaker 1: the bat, after we were outside of my home, I'm
Speaker 1: taking you hostage. He he's yeah, he said he was
Speaker 1: taking me hostage. He said he was taking me for ransom.
Speaker 1: I mean, he didn't make those claims. But the closer
Speaker 1: we got to this hiding spot and it took us.
Speaker 1: I mean from the time it napped he kidnapped me
Speaker 1: to the time we got this hiding spot like, it
Speaker 1: wasn't quick.
Speaker 3: I mean he took me.
Speaker 1: It was probably between two and three am, I would
Speaker 1: guess in the morning. By the time we got to
Speaker 1: this hiding spot, the sun was up like it was bright,
Speaker 1: you could see every thing. So I'm not even sure
Speaker 1: exactly how long it took, but it was ours getting
Speaker 1: back to this hiding place. And initially, as I said,
Speaker 1: he mentioned, yes, I'm taking hostage, I'm taking you captive,
Speaker 1: I'm holding you for ransom. But the closer we got
Speaker 1: to this hiding spot, the more what he said shifted
Speaker 1: from hostage and ransom to like all be made known
Speaker 1: to you. God's plan for you will be made like
Speaker 1: he kind of shifted.
Speaker 2: From said the wife comment to didn't he.
Speaker 1: That wasn't until that wasn't until we were actually in location.
Speaker 1: And that's actually after I first saw his wife. She
Speaker 1: was waiting for us. As soon as we walked into
Speaker 1: this camp, she was right there, and I remember thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: there's a woman here, then nothing that bad can happen
Speaker 1: to me, Like women wouldn't let anything else.
Speaker 3: Truly terrible happened to me, So I was relieved.
Speaker 1: Actually, when I saw her, she brought me inside the tent,
Speaker 1: she changed me, and then she got up and left,
Speaker 1: and that's when he came in and he was like,
Speaker 1: you're not my wife.
Speaker 6: I read that he said they wanted seven vulgin braids. Yes,
Speaker 6: did they tell you that?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 3: He tried.
Speaker 5: Oh really so he tried to kidnap other people he tried.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, he made two other attempts on different girls
Speaker 1: while I was with him.
Speaker 4: And is he having these conversations? Are they having these
Speaker 4: conversations with you around you?
Speaker 3: I mean they weren't. They didn't.
Speaker 1: They didn't hide their conversations from me once they had me.
Speaker 1: And kind of like what I was saying, they used
Speaker 1: like religion, they used God to justify and manipulate everything.
Speaker 1: So I mean, ultimately like he was a predator. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: like he wanted to rape little girls, but to justify that,
Speaker 1: he would be like, oh, this is such a heavy
Speaker 1: burden God is placed upon me. He has not only
Speaker 1: called me to you know, be his prophet and his servant,
Speaker 1: but I am his davidic king in the last days,
Speaker 1: and this is a burden I did not want to bear.
Speaker 1: And I just I've God sent me a vision and
Speaker 1: telling me I needed to take seven young brides, seven
Speaker 1: young virgin brides, seven young girls to be my brides.
Speaker 1: And they need to be young enough that they're still
Speaker 1: that they're still malleable, that they can you know, they're
Speaker 1: not so set in their ways and so set.
Speaker 3: In the ways of the world that like I can.
Speaker 1: He said it differently than this, but essentially groom them
Speaker 1: into what I want them to be, that God can
Speaker 1: work with them to be the help the helpmates I
Speaker 1: need in life.
Speaker 5: So it's almost like a coat, small version of a coat,
Speaker 5: or wants it to be. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And he was kidnapping instead of convincing.
Speaker 4: So your sister is in bed with you the night
Speaker 4: that you're taking I just I and she was the
Speaker 4: one who helped sorry to interrupt, but to help identify him. Yes,
Speaker 4: and also what I read, Okay, yeah, that's what I
Speaker 4: was going to ask, is it. I know you credit
Speaker 4: her quite a bit for getting even to the point
Speaker 4: of rescue. Tell us her version of that night if
Speaker 4: you can.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So she and I have talked about it since then,
Speaker 1: and she talked about how she was actually awake when
Speaker 1: I was kidnapped, Like she woke up, and I mean
Speaker 1: she didn't just like pop her eyes wide open. She
Speaker 1: was kind of just like keeping them closed and looking
Speaker 1: through her lashes.
Speaker 3: And she said, what she said is it.
Speaker 1: Looked like he was like wearing light colored clothing. And
Speaker 1: that was in like the newspaper reports. So when my
Speaker 1: captor saw that in the newspaper reports, he'd say things like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, God blinded her eyes because I mean he
Speaker 1: was in like a dark stalking cap and like a
Speaker 1: dark sweat gloat sweatshirt, dark sweatpants, dark gloves. And my
Speaker 1: sister said it looked like he had on like a
Speaker 1: white hat and he had a light color, and he'd
Speaker 1: be like, oh God, in one sense he veiled her
Speaker 1: eyes from the truth, but also in another like she
Speaker 1: was seeing my heavenly aura like that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: And so she talked about how she watched him, and
Speaker 1: she watched him take me and she thought he had
Speaker 1: a gun.
Speaker 3: She didn't realize it was a knife.
Speaker 1: She talked about how she like waited and waited and
Speaker 1: waited because the doors on our house had an alarm
Speaker 1: system on him, so when you open the door, the
Speaker 1: beeping would go off. But I guess, I guess the
Speaker 1: magnets that set the alarm off had fallen out of
Speaker 1: the back kitchen door, and just none of us knew
Speaker 1: about it, Like we just we just didn't know that
Speaker 1: it was malfunctioning. So he'd taken me on the back
Speaker 1: kitchen door. So but the door never alerted the alarm,
Speaker 1: so the alarm never went off.
Speaker 3: And so my sister she laid in bed and waited
Speaker 3: and waited and waited.
Speaker 1: And she said that she heard our grandfather clock go
Speaker 1: off two times, but the grandfather clock is accurate anyway.
Speaker 1: I think my brother's like got in and like smacked
Speaker 1: the pendulama a bit too hard and it broke it.
Speaker 1: So it just kind of went off randomly whenever it
Speaker 1: felt like it, and said she heard it go off
Speaker 1: a couple of times, and then she just decided she
Speaker 1: just had to tell my parents. She had to get
Speaker 1: into my parents' room and tell them she thought he
Speaker 1: was still maybe in the house, but she felt like
Speaker 1: she had to take the risks, so she's talked about
Speaker 1: how she had this ratty old baby blanket and she
Speaker 1: like wrapped it around her shoulders and like draped it
Speaker 1: over her head and ran into my parents' room and
Speaker 1: she first went to my dad's side of the bed,
Speaker 1: but he was like in a pretty heavy sleep, so
Speaker 1: he didn't wake up. So she walked around the bed
Speaker 1: to my mom's side, and my mom woke it up
Speaker 1: and she was like, what's wrong with my Catherine, Come
Speaker 1: tell me what's happening. And my little sister was just like,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth is gone, and my mom was like, I'm sure
Speaker 1: she's not gone, Like I'm sure you just had a
Speaker 1: bad dream. And Catherine was like, no, a man came
Speaker 1: and took her. And my Mom's like, no, I'm sure
Speaker 1: a man didn't come and take her. You know, she
Speaker 1: probably just like moved into like one of your brother's rooms,
Speaker 1: or like down into the kitchen on the sofa because
Speaker 1: like I'm I'm not a super cuddly person, like when
Speaker 1: I sleep, I don't want to be touched, and my
Speaker 1: sister is a very cuddly person, and she would just
Speaker 1: like always cuddle right up next to me, but then
Speaker 1: she sleeps really really hot and so she'll sweat in
Speaker 1: her sleep, or at least she did as a child,
Speaker 1: maybe not now.
Speaker 3: I don't know how it slept next her in.
Speaker 1: Years, but as a child, she'd like cud over up
Speaker 1: next to me, and then she'd be like sweating in
Speaker 1: her sleep, and like I would just get so hot,
Speaker 1: and I'd keep moving over. But beds are only so big,
Speaker 1: so it wouldn't be that uncharacteristic for me to get
Speaker 1: up and leave the bedroom my shirt with my sister
Speaker 1: and like go into like one of my brother's rooms,
Speaker 1: or go into the kitchen and sleep on the sofa.
Speaker 1: And so my mom was like, oh, it's okay, Like
Speaker 1: she's just in a different room, it's okay. By this time,
Speaker 1: my dad woke up and they started going through my
Speaker 1: brother's bedrooms. They came downstairs, and at the bottom of
Speaker 1: our stairs, you could go left into like the formal
Speaker 1: living room, or you could go right into the kitchen.
Speaker 1: My dad went left, my mom went right. She just
Speaker 1: like slammed on all the lights because in the background,
Speaker 1: my little sister kept saying, you're not going to find her.
Speaker 3: A man came and took her, and how old was
Speaker 3: your sister? She was eight she was almost nine.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And.
Speaker 1: So my mom said, how has since told me that
Speaker 1: when she went to the kitchen turned the lights on,
Speaker 1: she just saw how the window above the kitchen sink
Speaker 1: had been forced open, the screen had been cut, and
Speaker 1: at that point she just started screaming to my dad
Speaker 1: to call the.
Speaker 4: Police man and then for your father to find out
Speaker 4: that it was someone that he hired too.
Speaker 1: That must have been but I mean he didn't. It
Speaker 1: wasn't even like an immediate thing. I mean everybody knows later. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody thought it was this other guy that kidnapped me,
Speaker 1: who actually ended up dying in jail, and everyone's like, oh,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth is dead. She's gone, Like he's dead, she's gone,
Speaker 1: will never find her, Like the secret of her disappearance
Speaker 1: has been buried with this man. And it was my
Speaker 1: little sister who yeah, who then came forward months and
Speaker 1: months later being like I think I know who it
Speaker 1: was And it wasn't. It wasn't this other man that
Speaker 1: everyone thought it was. And so my dad called it
Speaker 1: the police to tell them, and from my understanding is
Speaker 1: they were quite dismissive of it, and my dad was like,
Speaker 1: well we should at least get like, how let us
Speaker 1: do like a police sketch, like have a sketch artist,
Speaker 1: let us come down and describe him. And so they
Speaker 1: had I think my two older brothers, no, my older
Speaker 1: brother and then my brother, my younger brother, go down
Speaker 1: to the police station with my dad, and each of
Speaker 1: them worked with the sketch artists to try to like
Speaker 1: recreate what they thought he looked like. But the police,
Speaker 1: my dad, I feel like, has said it was more
Speaker 1: they were just trying to humor my family as opposed
Speaker 1: to taking it seriously. At least that's what it sounded like.
Speaker 1: And the police were like, you know, we think we
Speaker 1: still don't think it's this guy.
Speaker 3: We think it's this other guy.
Speaker 1: But my dad was good friends with John Walsh from
Speaker 1: America's Most Wanted at the time, and so he called
Speaker 1: up John and he was like, Mary Catherine thinks it's
Speaker 1: this person.
Speaker 3: John Walsh went.
Speaker 1: On Larry King Live that night and he was the
Speaker 1: one that put the police sketch, like he told Larry
Speaker 1: King about it, and Larry King like showed the police
Speaker 1: sketch to America.
Speaker 2: And then how soon after were you captured?
Speaker 1: Well, I guess so my understanding of what happened is
Speaker 1: this please sketch wed out, And I mean he didn't
Speaker 1: go by his name of Brian Mitchell. He went by
Speaker 1: his name. He called himself a Manuel. And like Mary Catherine,
Speaker 1: my sister had remembered that name and she.
Speaker 3: Told my dad, I think it's a Manuel.
Speaker 1: So then when this name, when this sketch was released,
Speaker 1: the name Emmanuel was released with it as well. And
Speaker 1: from what I understand, his Brian Mitchell's sister and her
Speaker 1: husband had been watching the news, saw that he was
Speaker 1: a person of interest, called up the phone and said, well,
Speaker 1: actually his name is Brian Mitchell. He's been seen or
Speaker 1: he's been seen like a couple of times late, not
Speaker 1: in the recent months, but before winter. And he was
Speaker 1: with his wife, Wanda Barzi, and there was a younger
Speaker 1: woman there with them. But they were able to give
Speaker 1: like photos was better than the police sketch that was
Speaker 1: being shown. They were yeah, they sent in photos, and
Speaker 1: that happened. I think I'm not sure exactly when Larry
Speaker 1: King Live aired, but I think the photos appeared at
Speaker 1: the beginning of March.
Speaker 3: And I was rescued March twelfth.
Speaker 2: And how was that? Did the like did the police
Speaker 2: come in the house, like, what was that rescue?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 1: So I had been able to convince my captors that
Speaker 1: we should come back to Salt Lake. So we ended
Speaker 1: up hitchhiking back to Salt Lake. And it was the
Speaker 1: first day that we had made it back to Salt Lake,
Speaker 1: and my captors were to rush to get me.
Speaker 3: Up into the mountains. They wanted to hide me away,
Speaker 3: they wanted to make sure that they had me safe.
Speaker 1: We tucked away nobody would see me or find me,
Speaker 1: and walking up State Street and it just felt like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, a whole bunch of police cars all
Speaker 1: of a sudden showed up and all these police officers
Speaker 1: jumped out and started questioning my captors at first, and
Speaker 1: then they started questioning me.
Speaker 2: And you had given a fake name, right, I mean.
Speaker 1: Yes, i'd been I gave a fake name, but I
Speaker 1: had been told like I'd been prepped. There was a
Speaker 1: whole backstory on everything I was supposed to say, on
Speaker 1: what I was supposed to do. And I had a
Speaker 1: captor on either side of me, I mean, like physically
Speaker 1: touching me.
Speaker 4: You're either side fourteen years old, yeah, and you have
Speaker 4: been under this for nine months at this time. Yeah,
Speaker 4: that is heavy and brainwashy and reality shifting, and still
Speaker 4: at fourteen, that's young.
Speaker 1: So so yes, Initially I did not just give the answers,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't until they separated me from my captors
Speaker 1: that I finally answered them.
Speaker 4: Were you hoping that the police could see in you
Speaker 4: any sort of like physical like you know, like we
Speaker 4: always kind of joke, like the blink twice kind of thing,
Speaker 4: you know, But are you looking at the police like
Speaker 4: like just staring at them like please ask more, please
Speaker 4: separate me? Are you what does it feel like in
Speaker 4: that moment because you're so close. I, of course I wanted,
Speaker 4: I wanted the police to rescue me, but I also
Speaker 4: I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to say anything because because you know,
Speaker 1: if the police didn't rescue me, I didn't I didn't
Speaker 1: want to be punished.
Speaker 3: I didn't want to be hurt. I didn't want my
Speaker 3: family to be hurt.
Speaker 1: Like I felt that burden of responsibility it was was
Speaker 1: very heavy. So I didn't want to say anything that
Speaker 1: would possibly endanger my family or myself. But I think
Speaker 1: as a kid, you look at police, you look at
Speaker 1: figures of authority, and you think, like they're superhuman. You
Speaker 1: think they can see through, You think they have all
Speaker 1: the answers, and that you don't need to say anything
Speaker 1: or do anything. They just naturally have all of the answers.
Speaker 1: And I think that's how I felt in that moment,
Speaker 1: like I wanted them to have all the answers. I
Speaker 1: wanted them to see through the lies that I was saying.
Speaker 1: I wanted them to see through the lies that my
Speaker 1: captors were saying. I wanted them to see the truth.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I read that when I think it was maybe
Speaker 6: when you're in the police car you can clarify it,
Speaker 6: but you were asking if they were okay at that point,
Speaker 6: I'm not right.
Speaker 3: It was a very. It was like a very.
Speaker 1: It was very intense because the police, they they were
Speaker 1: not gentle. They're not gentle with me, Like, they were
Speaker 1: really very abrasive and quite aggressive. And I don't I
Speaker 1: don't think i'm either as a person, and I was
Speaker 1: a kid, so I was even less so. And as
Speaker 1: soon as I had told them who I was, I'd
Speaker 1: been handcuffed.
Speaker 4: What Yeah, why handcuff? Why were you handcuffed when you
Speaker 4: told them you were Elizabeth?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was handcuffed and I was put in the
Speaker 1: back of the car, and I thought I was in trouble,
Speaker 1: and they really didn't tell me what was going on.
Speaker 2: Why in the world would they handcuff you.
Speaker 3: It's interesting.
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of things, and actually about a
Speaker 1: year ago, I for the first time I re met
Speaker 1: the officers that were there that day, and I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm grown up now. It's you know, it's been over
Speaker 1: twenty years since that happened, and it was incredible because it.
Speaker 3: Was still like they were still like they were kind.
Speaker 1: I could tell they were happy I was there. I
Speaker 1: could tell that they wanted to answer any questions I had.
Speaker 1: But like, even still they were not gentle people.
Speaker 4: Why did they hank I don't understand. Why why, I
Speaker 4: really don't understand.
Speaker 3: At the time, there was not like a best practices.
Speaker 1: I was told that just nobody was allowed in the
Speaker 1: back of the police car without being handcuffed. I mean
Speaker 1: they said, like how they had a teenager the week
Speaker 1: before who or recently who wasn't handcuffed and tried to
Speaker 1: stab the driver, the police officer driving. So it was
Speaker 1: like a safety protocol for them. But just so you know,
Speaker 1: I had been handcuffed. I hadn't been told what was
Speaker 1: going on. I didn't know where I was being taken
Speaker 1: because I'd been handcuffed. I thought I was guilty. I
Speaker 1: didn't know if I was just going to be released
Speaker 1: to them, So I mean I did ask questions because
Speaker 1: I didn't know.
Speaker 3: Like, for lack of better words, it.
Speaker 1: Almost felt like I needed to still play play a role,
Speaker 1: that I still needed to protect myself and my family
Speaker 1: because if I was going to be released back to
Speaker 1: these captors, I didn't want to be punished.
Speaker 3: I didn't want my family to be endangered. I mean,
Speaker 3: I did not know I was safe.
Speaker 1: I thought if they thought I was innocent, wouldn't they
Speaker 1: have taken me home? Wouldn't they have told me what
Speaker 1: was going on. Wouldn't they have let me call my family?
Speaker 6: Like yeah, you'd think that would be the fust What's
Speaker 6: it would come from the police officer?
Speaker 2: You're safe, here's a blanket and some warm tea, and
Speaker 2: your family's right there, like.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, stick these home costs and get in the
Speaker 5: back of the car.
Speaker 4: Awful disgusting, it is it? It has seemed crazy to me,
Speaker 4: and I wonder if it feels this way to you,
Speaker 4: because like during this time. I live in Michigan. She
Speaker 4: lives in Michigan, and we know your name and we
Speaker 4: know your face, like you were literally everywhere, And it's
Speaker 4: wild to me that you could be taken into public
Speaker 4: moved locations beyond a Greyhound bus and people not know
Speaker 4: it's you, especially in this kind of like awkward looking
Speaker 4: trio of people that's traveling. Did they change your appearance
Speaker 4: at all? Were they you know, like I've I've heard that,
Speaker 4: not like I study a lot of kidnappings, because honestly,
Speaker 4: it all just kind of stresses me out a bit.
Speaker 4: And like the fact this man worked on your house,
Speaker 4: like I'm like, like, I'm panicking. So that's one of
Speaker 4: the questions I have for you. But it usually there's
Speaker 4: like a typically there's some sort of like appearance change
Speaker 4: or something so that you're a little less recognizable. Did
Speaker 4: they do those things to you where you like, my
Speaker 4: face has got to be everywhere? How is no one
Speaker 4: recognizing me? Like the silent screams? I just can't imagine.
Speaker 4: First of all, I can't imagine being fourteen and this
Speaker 4: is your reality for nine full months. I think I
Speaker 4: think anyone that questions why you would do anything should
Speaker 4: probably stop questioning because you're fourteen and your reality has
Speaker 4: become survival, a different kind of trauma that no one
Speaker 4: in this room can identify with no one, And so
Speaker 4: I defend you in that and I never want you
Speaker 4: to have to over explain yourself ever again if I
Speaker 4: had one prayer for you, But do do you feel
Speaker 4: like I'm wondering? I'm you, and I'm like, I want
Speaker 4: people to feel the silent screams. I want them to
Speaker 4: see something in my eyes that says this is not right.
Speaker 4: I want to pass somebody a note at a diner,
Speaker 4: I want to take too long in the bathroom, or
Speaker 4: you know, like were those thoughts, where are those thoughts
Speaker 4: in this whole San Diego relocation and then back to
Speaker 4: Salt Lake City, I mean.
Speaker 1: They were always there, Like one time I had to
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom and yes I was, I was
Speaker 1: veiled and I was. I mean that the way that
Speaker 1: they had me dressed, I mean, just everything again kind
Speaker 1: of played into that form of that appearance of religious extremism.
Speaker 1: So and again, taking that time period back into consideration,
Speaker 1: like I remember walking down the street seeing people walking
Speaker 1: towards us. They'd stop when they'd see us, they'd cross
Speaker 1: the street, they walked down the other side past us,
Speaker 1: and once.
Speaker 3: They were past us, they'd cross back over. I remember people.
Speaker 1: Rolling down their windows, sticking their heads out of their
Speaker 1: windows and yelling things like oh sama, like out the
Speaker 1: window at us. Like they really took advantage of this
Speaker 1: situation to the fullest. I mean they just like they
Speaker 1: really did. And I think it would be.
Speaker 3: Silly to say that they were, to say that they
Speaker 3: were stupid.
Speaker 1: Mean, unfair, evil, sure, monsters, absolutely, but stupid they were not.
Speaker 1: And they recognized, you know, like, oh, people are scared
Speaker 1: of religion. Like if people question you, like why are
Speaker 1: you doing this or why are you dressed that way?
Speaker 1: And you say, well, it's part of my religion, that
Speaker 1: usually just shuts people up and they walk on their way.
Speaker 1: And so they recognize that, and they utilize that. That
Speaker 1: became a very effective and powerful tool.
Speaker 4: They did make you wear a wag at one time, didn't.
Speaker 3: They They did? Yes?
Speaker 1: Oh did they change my parents? So yes, for the
Speaker 1: most part when we were in For most of the time,
Speaker 1: I was I had like a headdress on and had
Speaker 1: like a veil covering my face, and like I was
Speaker 1: dressed in like these long robes. When we were hitchhiking
Speaker 1: back from California, I mean, they had dressed me in
Speaker 1: clothes that they had just like found in an abandoned
Speaker 1: homeless camp. They went to like the equivalent of Dollar
Speaker 1: General or the Dollar Store, and they had like some
Speaker 1: gray wigs that were there, and so on the way
Speaker 1: back they had me wearing like a gray wig, and
Speaker 1: then they had me wearing sunglasses. And I mean then,
Speaker 1: I mean, on top of it, like it was it
Speaker 1: was hard getting back to Utah. I mean California to Utah.
Speaker 1: Like you think, oh, that's like not that far, but actually,
Speaker 1: just like hitch hiking back, I mean you're not even
Speaker 1: taking the most direct route. They were like, oh, we
Speaker 1: don't want people to like, we don't want people to
Speaker 1: know exactly our final destination. So they'd put like different
Speaker 1: cities on their signs and hopefully Utah would just be
Speaker 1: on the way and then we would just drop our
Speaker 1: signs when we got to where we wanted to be.
Speaker 1: But also we spent like so much time out in
Speaker 1: the desert, and there wasn't shade, there wasn't cover. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm a pretty white person, like I'm borderline glow in
Speaker 1: the dark occasionally, and like I was burned, Like my
Speaker 1: face was was burned and blistered, and then.
Speaker 3: It became like puffy.
Speaker 1: So sometimes when I look back at the pictures of
Speaker 1: the day that I was rescued, to hit my vanity.
Speaker 1: But also like, I mean, even then, I look at
Speaker 1: the pictures that they plastered on the front page of
Speaker 1: the newspaper, and I'm.
Speaker 4: Like, why why, such as you were America's kid, and
Speaker 4: we were all looking for you. We didn't bear you
Speaker 4: were sunburned. We wanted you back, cared, I know, like, and.
Speaker 1: It's not like it's not like they had me in
Speaker 1: a bra and I was, you know, by that point,
Speaker 1: I was fifteen. Like, no fifteen year old girl wants
Speaker 1: to be on the front page of a newspaper or
Speaker 1: a magazine without a bra.
Speaker 4: And listen, no one's judging how you looked when you
Speaker 4: were rescued, I promise you. But we said you that's
Speaker 4: how if we were happy. So how long were they
Speaker 4: sentenced for?
Speaker 1: So Brian Mitchell is sentenced for life and wander no chance,
Speaker 1: no chance of Parl, no chance of Wanda Barzee is
Speaker 1: now out.
Speaker 2: She's out, she's out.
Speaker 5: She got and went to a certain eighteen. How did
Speaker 5: you feel about that?
Speaker 3: I was disappointed.
Speaker 1: I I mean she was there, she not just like
Speaker 1: she never protected me from him. She encouraged him and
Speaker 1: doing whatever he wanted to me.
Speaker 2: She there with and all the salt stuff was happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like watched it happen, encouraged it to happen.
Speaker 1: So there was like a part of me that was like, well,
Speaker 1: I feel like my mom was always like if you
Speaker 1: don't stand up for people who are being hurt, then
Speaker 1: you're just as bad as the person doing the hurting.
Speaker 1: And maybe that's just like the mentality I was raised with.
Speaker 1: But I look at her, and I mean she had
Speaker 1: a prior marriage where she had six children of her own,
Speaker 1: And part of me is like, how could you like
Speaker 1: bring children into this world, raise children who are all
Speaker 1: older than me, and then sit aside and watch your
Speaker 1: current husband rape me repeatedly and abuse me and like
Speaker 1: chain me up with hold food and water from me,
Speaker 1: forced me to go naked. Like how can you, who
Speaker 1: who was a mother, just sit aside and do that?
Speaker 5: Would you ever want to sit in the room with
Speaker 5: a no nice expression?
Speaker 4: No? No, do you remember the first word your parents
Speaker 4: said when they got to see you again.
Speaker 1: My dad was, I mean, he was the first one
Speaker 1: I saw. He came to the Sandy Police station and
Speaker 1: he was like he was just in tears. And I
Speaker 1: didn't know he was coming. I didn't know he was there,
Speaker 1: Like they just didn't tell me anything.
Speaker 4: And so I.
Speaker 3: It was shocking, honestly to have him just run in
Speaker 3: the room all of a sudden. He was just crying.
Speaker 3: He was like, Elizabeth, is it really you? Is it
Speaker 3: really you? And he just kind of repeated that over
Speaker 3: and over, and even my mom.
Speaker 1: On the way from the Sandy police station where I
Speaker 1: was initially brought to the downtown headquarters in Salt Lake.
Speaker 3: My dad was in the car.
Speaker 1: We were in the backseat of a police car and
Speaker 1: the police was taking us there, and he like pulled
Speaker 1: out his phone and called my mom up and he's like, Lois,
Speaker 1: it's real, it's real. She's here, she's alive. She's here
Speaker 1: with me. And I was like, let me talk to her,
Speaker 1: let me talk to her. Put her on the phone,
Speaker 1: and so he passed the phone to me and my
Speaker 1: mom she said the same thing. She's like, Elizabeth, Elizabeth,
Speaker 1: like is it really you? Are you there are you
Speaker 1: like like say something to speak, say something and then
Speaker 1: the his battery died.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I know, Dad, I know, bro, I
Speaker 4: didn't see that coming. I'm not gonna lie, Dad, Like,
Speaker 4: did you get him a charger for his birthday?
Speaker 2: Well Christmas?
Speaker 3: That it was back when everyone had like a Nokia brick.
Speaker 4: Put them for having a phone, to be honest, because
Speaker 4: I mean, honestly, two thousand and two we were flip
Speaker 4: phoning and yeah, it was.
Speaker 3: It wasn't a smartphone. It was like when you're.
Speaker 4: Pushing A three times to get you know, like or
Speaker 4: one three times to get an A or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was like one charge would last you
Speaker 1: a few days. I mean the only thing you could
Speaker 1: do was call, text and maybe play Snake and that
Speaker 1: was it.
Speaker 2: Oh snaky wow. Way to bring it back.
Speaker 3: So you got to.
Speaker 2: You got to say something to Brian though when he
Speaker 2: was sentenced correct.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean he didn't. How was that listen, of course?
Speaker 2: But how was that for you to to say something
Speaker 2: to him? Would you want to go back? Is there
Speaker 2: something you'd want to go back and say differently? Would
Speaker 2: you want to say I wish I would have said
Speaker 2: this or this is what I would want to say
Speaker 2: to him now, So I'm sure for teen versus what
Speaker 2: you're in your thirties.
Speaker 3: Well, I didn't.
Speaker 1: The trial didn't happen until I was in my twenties,
Speaker 1: Like it was almost it was almost.
Speaker 3: A decade after I was rescued. Yeah, the it's crazy.
Speaker 1: Actually, so my case went straight into the state courts,
Speaker 1: which is what you'd expect, but it took so long,
Speaker 1: and it was back when there was a statute of limitations.
Speaker 1: And actually it was taking so long in the state
Speaker 1: courts that the Statute of limitations was coming up, so
Speaker 1: there was a chance they could have been released, wow,
Speaker 1: just because that statute of limitations was coming into effect, which.
Speaker 3: Is when I was then approached by the.
Speaker 1: US Attorney of Utah and asked if I wanted to
Speaker 1: move it to federal courts, if I wanted, like the
Speaker 1: federal courts to try to prosecute it, And he explained
Speaker 1: to me what was happening in the state courts, and
Speaker 1: I was like, of course, is that even a question
Speaker 1: like do I want him out? No, of course I
Speaker 1: want him behind bars. And so then it got moved
Speaker 1: to the.
Speaker 3: Federal courts, and that still even then took a long time.
Speaker 3: I mean it was I think eight nine years when
Speaker 3: it finally came to trial and sentencing. I think was
Speaker 3: just shy of ten years, maybe for nine years right
Speaker 3: around there, Like it was, it was a long time.
Speaker 1: So by the time, like when I've made my victim
Speaker 1: impact statement to him, like a lot of time had
Speaker 1: passed and I'd grown up a lot. Honestly, I don't
Speaker 1: even fully remember what I said that day, but I
Speaker 1: trust myself.
Speaker 2: So there's nothing you would say now then to him.
Speaker 3: I don't have anything to say to him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Alan, you were you were saying earlier too, You're like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if I should come on, how she'd
Speaker 2: feel about being around a guy, And I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: she's older now, she's not.
Speaker 6: I understand not wasn't It was me because you didn't
Speaker 6: know I was going to be in possibly going to
Speaker 6: be in this, and then you guys have turned up
Speaker 6: and all of a sudden, I'm like, yeah, I want to.
Speaker 6: So it was almost intrusive, and I didn't want to
Speaker 6: be the male in the room that was making himself
Speaker 6: a part of this when maybe it wasn't welcome.
Speaker 3: That was my thought.
Speaker 2: You were going off of it because of like how
Speaker 2: she trusts men.
Speaker 5: Now, yeah, there was a.
Speaker 6: Little bit of that, Like it was one it was
Speaker 6: going to be intrusive. It may have come off as disrespectful,
Speaker 6: and I didn't.
Speaker 5: You're clearly.
Speaker 6: A very powerful woman told in a very powerful woman
Speaker 6: and very powerfelt kid, But I don't know what you
Speaker 6: are like around men there. So I was like maybe
Speaker 6: I should maybe I'm not welcome, which is what I
Speaker 6: said to you. I might not be welcome in the room.
Speaker 2: Well always welcome back, but.
Speaker 5: Husband, and I'm like, oh, she's good.
Speaker 2: But how was that to trust men after that?
Speaker 1: Well? As a teenager, yeah, I was scared of men,
Speaker 1: Like I didn't want to be left alone with men.
Speaker 3: I didn't trust men. But again, like it's not like
Speaker 3: think Kevin's.
Speaker 1: I didn't grow up in a society where there are
Speaker 1: arranged marriages and thank goodness, it's not like my parents
Speaker 1: were like, oh, Elizabeth, like we're gonna we're gonna sign
Speaker 1: you up to marry this like fifty year old man.
Speaker 1: Like that's not If that had been my life, then
Speaker 1: I probably would still be scared of men. But like
Speaker 1: I was, I was brought home and like I wasn't
Speaker 1: forced into anything, and like my parents tried to support
Speaker 1: me and give me whatever space I wanted or needed.
Speaker 1: And I mean I trusted my dad, and I trusted
Speaker 1: my grandpa, and I trusted my uncles, and that was
Speaker 1: about it. My brothers, I've got four of them, and
Speaker 1: that was enough at first, you know. And then, like
Speaker 1: as silly as it might sound, during my kidnapping, like
Speaker 1: when he's telling me that I'm now his wife, when
Speaker 1: he's telling me that like one day I'll have his kids,
Speaker 1: that I will you know, I will come to love him,
Speaker 1: that I will come to you know, willingly do all
Speaker 1: of the things he was forcing me to do. Like
Speaker 1: it just felt like he was like shattering one dream
Speaker 1: at a time, because like, yeah, I totally was that
Speaker 1: little girl that like one day I did want to
Speaker 1: grow up and fall in love and I wanted to
Speaker 1: get married, and I wanted to have a family, and
Speaker 1: I wanted all those things. I'm not saying like I
Speaker 1: wanted that I'm like right that second, but I mean
Speaker 1: like I wanted those things from my life, and like
Speaker 1: it felt like those things had been taken away from me.
Speaker 1: And so when I was rescued, I mean it kind
Speaker 1: of felt like those things, at least the opportunity for
Speaker 1: things those things to happen, had been given back. So
Speaker 1: although I wasn't ready for any of that at that time,
Speaker 1: like those were still things I wanted in my life.
Speaker 3: So I'm just yeah, I'm grateful for the time that
Speaker 3: I had.
Speaker 2: And how was that healing journey? Was it just like,
Speaker 2: what was the thing that helped you the most through
Speaker 2: the healing?
Speaker 3: I think it was just knowing that I was loved unconditionally.
Speaker 1: I think that made the biggest, the biggest difference and
Speaker 1: the biggest impact. And actually now as an advocate, when
Speaker 1: I talked to parents, I think that is probably the
Speaker 1: greatest gift that any parent can give their child, is
Speaker 1: to make sure that they know that they're.
Speaker 3: Well, that their children know that you love them unconditionally.
Speaker 3: There are no strings attached to your love. Your children
Speaker 3: might disappoint you or might do things that you don't
Speaker 3: agree with, but you will still love them. They couldn't
Speaker 3: do anything that would ever stop you from loving them.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Well, when we talk about this a lot too, because
Speaker 2: KB is Christon's very protective, I say, a psychopath, but
Speaker 2: well I was I was trying to be nice. So yeah,
Speaker 2: like you like, I mean she's breathes the air up close,
Speaker 2: like and it just has them. And I'm a little
Speaker 2: bit more, you know, I still very protective, but there's
Speaker 2: a there's a so I will say, as a mom, now,
Speaker 2: how what do you what are you doing? I know,
Speaker 2: the to make sure they love the love unconditional, But
Speaker 2: is there from your experience and what happened to you
Speaker 2: as a kid, is there something that you're now doing
Speaker 2: as a mom being more aware of or I mean
Speaker 2: I don't even know, like what's the I mean, stranger.
Speaker 4: Danger is one thing, right, like we all know that,
Speaker 4: but like being in the walk that you've had, Yeah,
Speaker 4: how does that transform into being the daughter, son or
Speaker 4: children of Elizabeth smart Well?
Speaker 3: I mean, first I just want to say, like my
Speaker 3: case really is the exception.
Speaker 1: Like I'm like, it's not me like bragging or being
Speaker 1: like I'm so special, but it really is the exception
Speaker 1: in that I Mike story is a stranger abduction.
Speaker 3: I did not know him. I did not have a
Speaker 3: personal relationship with him. I did not know him.
Speaker 1: He saw me one time for like forty five seconds maybe,
Speaker 1: and that was it. That was all he decided that's
Speaker 1: all it took, and he had decided. I was one
Speaker 1: conem I didn't know him, there was no personal relationship there.
Speaker 3: The vast majority of abductions.
Speaker 1: Of sexual assault come from people that you know, people
Speaker 1: that you trust, whether that's a family member, someone in
Speaker 1: your community that you have a relationshipship with, someone that
Speaker 1: has access to your kids. That is where the vast
Speaker 1: majority of a productions and sexual assault comes from. And
Speaker 1: so when we do talk to kids, I think it
Speaker 1: is so important to be clear, like I like, talk
Speaker 1: about what can be, what happens, make sure that they
Speaker 1: realize that if they say no, that no has power
Speaker 1: and that that no should be respected, That they that
Speaker 1: other people don't have control over their body. That yes,
Speaker 1: there are of course situations like you know, if a
Speaker 1: child needs helps bathing themselves, or like they got hurt
Speaker 1: and they need you to look at it, or you're
Speaker 1: taking them into the doctor and you're in the room
Speaker 1: with them, Like there's times when it's appropriate that that
Speaker 1: for someone else to touch their body or look at
Speaker 1: their body, but for the most part it's it's not,
Speaker 1: and that they should trust their instinct if they don't
Speaker 1: feel safe, if they don't like someone if they like
Speaker 1: if they I don't know, if their radar is going off,
Speaker 1: that something's wrong, that that should be, that those instincts
Speaker 1: should be encouraged, and then that bond of trust between
Speaker 1: you and your child should be so strong that they
Speaker 1: know that they can come to you, talk to you
Speaker 1: about what's happened, and you will believe them instead of
Speaker 1: just dismissing it. You will believe them, and you'll support them,
Speaker 1: and then you'll help them to like figure out what
Speaker 1: to do next. So I think, for me, what I
Speaker 1: try to do, I'm not perfect in it, none of us,
Speaker 1: by the way, and I'm not a parenting expert. Just
Speaker 1: for the record, I feel like a lot of people
Speaker 1: ask me, so, how do you raise your kids? I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm trying, still trying to figure it out. I am
Speaker 1: so open to suggestions and advice other parents have, But
Speaker 1: I feel like the advice that I've been given, the
Speaker 1: things that I feel like i'm like learning along the
Speaker 1: way that I've been helpful are I mean being open
Speaker 1: with your kids. When your kids start asking questions, that's
Speaker 1: the right time to start giving them answers. Don't wait
Speaker 1: for them to google it or learn from a friend.
Speaker 2: Do they know about your kidnapping?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: They all could tell you the.
Speaker 1: Very broad overarching stone, right, They probably couldn't tell you
Speaker 1: nitty gritty details of anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because you're right, because they can anybody can
Speaker 2: google anything. Is there anything that you you haven't told me?
Speaker 2: Did you tell them about the assaults?
Speaker 1: And so my oldest she we've started having those conversations.
Speaker 1: We haven't gone into huge depth yet, but we have
Speaker 1: begun having those conversations because I also think of like
Speaker 1: who I was before I was kidnapped, and like, honestly,
Speaker 1: like I was innocence. I was like I might have
Speaker 1: been fourteen, but I didn't know anything, Like I loved
Speaker 1: a very sheltered life.
Speaker 3: I lived a very protected life.
Speaker 1: And also like in my life, nobody took the time
Speaker 1: to like talk to me and be like there's a
Speaker 1: difference between like consenting sex versus rape versus sexual be
Speaker 1: so all of it kind of seemed like it was
Speaker 1: the same thing to me, and I kind of I
Speaker 1: look back on my life and I think how damaging
Speaker 1: not having that education was during my kidnapping and how
Speaker 1: long it took me to learn that afterwards, and how hard.
Speaker 3: Honestly, that road was learning that.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, I want my girls in particular, to
Speaker 1: like understand there is a very big difference between abuse,
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, and rape versus.
Speaker 3: Like loving intimacy.
Speaker 1: And I don't want them to feel ashamed. I mean,
Speaker 1: heaven forbid anything it's ever happens to them, to any
Speaker 1: of my kids, But I don't want them to ever
Speaker 1: feel ashamed for someone else's actions because I did, even
Speaker 1: though like I knew, like logically I knew it wasn't
Speaker 1: my fault, but I still was embarrassed just because people
Speaker 1: they didn't talk about abuse, and they didn't talk about rape,
Speaker 1: and they didn't talk about you know, sure there's the news,
Speaker 1: but that kind of that felt unrelatable. That felt like
Speaker 1: it was a different world. It didn't feel like it
Speaker 1: was my world. It felt like it was some world on.
Speaker 3: The wrong side of the tracks, if you will. So
Speaker 3: that was really that was hard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, now where can listeners find you? And then
Speaker 2: where can they find your advocacy work to So.
Speaker 1: In twenty eleven, we started the Elizabeth Smart Foundation and
Speaker 1: we're still here, miraculously amazing. So go to Elizabethsmartfoundation dot org.
Speaker 1: And that's our website or Elizabeth Smart Foundation on Instagram
Speaker 1: or Facebook social media sites. We're there, and then we
Speaker 1: have our own podcast called Smart Talks. It is also
Speaker 1: through the foundation where we cover I mean, we cover
Speaker 1: these harder topics, but we also have like inspiring, amazing
Speaker 1: guests who share their stories or their expertise and their
Speaker 1: knowledge of all things pertaining to.
Speaker 3: Un around the world of.
Speaker 1: Rape and sexual violence and hope and healing And.
Speaker 4: What would be the one thing you would want them
Speaker 4: to know that have been in that abuse.
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a few things I'd want them
Speaker 1: to know. I think the first thing I'd want them
Speaker 1: to know is that that you do matter.
Speaker 3: You are special. This is not your fault, Like you
Speaker 3: didn't do anything to deserve this. Nobody wakes up.
Speaker 1: In the morning and being like, oh, what today feels
Speaker 1: like a really good day to be abused? Like nobody
Speaker 1: does that. Nobody deserves to be hurt or abuse. The
Speaker 1: next thing I'd want them to know is that I
Speaker 1: know it can feel like this is going to define
Speaker 1: you for the rest of your life. Like I don't
Speaker 1: know how many airplanes I've gotten on or restaurants I've
Speaker 1: sat down in where people just stare and stare and stare,
Speaker 1: and they're like, I know I know you from somewhere.
Speaker 1: You just your face is so familiar.
Speaker 3: Where do I know you from?
Speaker 1: And then and then it'll like hit him and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you're that girl that was kidnapped. I'm like, say it
Speaker 1: a little bit louder, please, It's not like I'm on
Speaker 1: a date or anything.
Speaker 4: Also I'm an adult and also awkward. Yeah, but remember
Speaker 4: later and write it jump in a journal or something, sir.
Speaker 1: Like it's easy to feel like defined by one moment
Speaker 1: in your life, or like one thing in your life.
Speaker 1: Like I remember after I was rescued, I was so
Speaker 1: worried if I died tomorrow and my funeral happened tomorrow,
Speaker 1: what is what is going to be the topic anybody
Speaker 1: talks about?
Speaker 3: Oh, it's such a tragedy, Like she was kidnapped and
Speaker 3: then she died. She kidnapped and survived just to die,
Speaker 3: Like I was, like, my kidnapping is going to dominate
Speaker 3: my funeral? Like what a morbid thought for like a
Speaker 3: fifteen year old kid to have, But that was my thought.
Speaker 1: So like I think it's common to feel like easily
Speaker 1: defined by these moments maybe one or two moments in
Speaker 1: your life.
Speaker 3: But I don't think that's the truth.
Speaker 1: I think you define yourself by how you live your life,
Speaker 1: what you do next, how you respond, like what you
Speaker 1: do the rest of today, what you do the rest
Speaker 1: of tomorrow, the rest of your life, Like I think
Speaker 1: that's kind of.
Speaker 3: What makes you who you are. And then and then finally,
Speaker 3: the last thing I'd want someone who has been abused
Speaker 3: to know is that you deserve to be happy. Take
Speaker 3: time for happiness. Find your happiness, like whatever it is,
Speaker 3: like singing or dancing, or painting, or reading a book
Speaker 3: or baking, I don't know, football, like whatever it.
Speaker 4: Is, whistling you love to whistled on? That sounds like
Speaker 4: a point.
Speaker 3: Must be another Scottish trade.
Speaker 1: Like find whatever it is that brings you joy and
Speaker 1: practice it regularly, Like don't just like put it off
Speaker 1: for tomorrow, like all of us have busy less there's
Speaker 1: always something to fill your life life up with, like take.
Speaker 3: Time just to enjoy and be happy as well.
Speaker 2: A meant to that. Well, thank you so much Elisheth
Speaker 2: for coming on and sharing your story and everything that
Speaker 2: you do. Thank you, appreciate you, Thank you