WEBVTT - Macron is Still Trying to Save Europe. It's Harder Than Ever. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:09.880 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.480 Our former model is over. This is not the same world. 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:27.240 We are over regulating an underinvesting. If we follow our 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.280 classical agenda, we will be out of the market. 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:31.160 I have no doubt. 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.200 Welcome back to voter Nomics, where politics and markets collide. 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:38.800 This year, voters around the world have the ability to 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:43.080 move markets, countries and economies like never before, so we 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:45.800 created this series to help you make sense of it all. 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:47.520 I'm Stephanie Flanders. 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:50.320 I'm Adrian Wooldridge, and I'm Alegri Stratton. Steph's good to 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:51.240 have you back from Berlin. 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:54.600 Yes, so I was there to host a panel. You 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.560 just heard a bit of it. Conversation on stage with 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:00.880 the French President, Emmanuel Macron doesn't happen every day, and 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:02.720 you just heard from him at the top of the show. 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.200 And it was a slightly strange setup in this that 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:09.240 I was on stage mainly talking to Macron, but the 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:12.800 chairman of the big event that was being held, the 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:17.080 Berlin Global Dialogue, Lars Hendrik Roller, was also up on 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:19.920 stage and we were supposed to be focusing on Europe's 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.959 role in a multipolar future. But I obviously wanted to 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:26.160 also get him some questions about the state of things 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:28.320 in France. We've obviously had several months where there was 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.200 a lot of uncertainty about what the government was going 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:30.520 to be. 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:33.800 So how did you find him? Was he sort of 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:36.240 sort of normal, feistyself. 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:38.600 For he did do about sort of ten or fifteen 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:43.000 minutes of remarks, and you were mainly reminded and what 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.360 a great speaker he is, but who also does a 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.640 very good job of just sounding like he really cares. 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:50.920 And this is his sort of cri de cour that 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:53.960 he wants to save Europe, and he's still trying to 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.960 save Europe, even though he's really probably further away from 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:58.600 it than he was when he came into office in 0:01:58.640 --> 0:01:59.240 twenty seventy. 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:01.000 Did you think he was a operation in the sense 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:04.960 that he prepared very carefully for encountering you or. 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.280 Is this just himlater on? He did seem to be 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:10.400 like many people on the street in Germany who asked 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:13.720 me directions, they I, somehow do look German and so, 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:15.919 and he seemed to think I was German, which was fine, 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:17.519 except for I was kind of surprised that he was 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:18.880 going to be on stage, would be for an hour, 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:20.680 and none of his staff had bothered to say, by 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.080 the way, this woman's actually British and she's an economist 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:26.280 or whatever. So that was quite a sort of entertaining aspect. 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:28.720 He kept on like saying, well, you care very much 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:30.760 in this country about cars, and I was like, you know, 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:31.560 don't look at em. 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:36.960 But he seemed extraordinarily jaunty given the circumstances in France. 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:39.799 I mean, I did think that, and obviously afterwards one's 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.240 always thinking, oh, you know, it should have been been tougher. 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.799 I mean, if there is a sort of a tragic 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:47.840 arc to his time in office, if you remember when 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:51.200 he came in, he'd obviously had that extraordinary, very rapid 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:56.560 assent to the presidency, having been really more of an 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:00.560 advisor figure only a year earlier or junior minister, and 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:03.240 he said he remember he went to the World Economic 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.160 Forum and devils, he said, France is back. He had 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.239 lots of kind of reaching out to business, some of 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:10.600 which was very successful. If you think post Brexit the 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.480 number of banks and others that have been attracted to Paris. 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.639 He really did quite a lot in the labor market 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:19.280 to get people back to work. Unemployment have been stuck 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:21.919 over ten percent for years in France, down to seven, 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:24.280 stuck at seven now. But he's done quite a lot. 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:28.720 He did the pension reform with those enormous demonstrations, massive 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.520 political cost, and you step back and you think, what 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.040 has all that achieved. Public spending is still among the 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.800 highest in Europe, very fractionally lower than it was when 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.720 he came in office, budget deficits actually much worse than 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.680 it was, and he's got a government now that he 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:49.120 can't control, that is actually is hemmed in by the 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:50.160 far right and the far lane. 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:52.120 It also struck me that, you know, he conducted this 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:56.200 extraordinary experiment in sort of creating a populism of the 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.320 center of sort of trying to marry populism with technocratic 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.720 politics in order to draw the poison out of populism, 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.480 and it hasn't done that. It's actually further polarized and 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:06.920 already polarized system. 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.520 That is the extraordinary thing. It did seem like a 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.600 mistake to have called that snap election after the European 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:18.440 election results. You're here. He defends that absolutely and says, actually, 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.640 if he hadn't done that, he would be in no 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.560 better situation now because the same question marks would be 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.279 hanging over his agenda. But the truth is, you know, 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.320 whether that's right or wrong, he is for the rest 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:32.240 of his term probably going to have to sort of 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:34.600 stand by. And the best hope is that what he's 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:39.640 done so far doesn't get reversed because any effort to 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:41.760 push forward with any of these big reforms. You know, 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.000 but Marie La Penn can bring down this government just 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:45.719 by calling a confidence vote tomorrow. 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.680 But to me, there's such schizophrenia at the top of 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.039 Europe now where you've got and I wonder how much 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:55.480 you know you've sort of observed this talking to him, 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:58.279 because you're talking to him in Germany where right now 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:02.279 this week we've got on the one and Germany and 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:06.840 the EUEU tariffs on Chinese evs they don't want them 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:08.840 and France does want them. And then on the other hand, 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.320 as you also talked to him about later, there's this 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.480 division between himself and Schultz over what they should do 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:16.440 with the free trade deal with the South Americans. So 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:20.040 outside looking across to them, they look to have such 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:21.560 a schizophrenia right at the top. 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:23.840 Yeah, and I think that's even evident in his own 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.520 policy towards China right, because you know, he's at one 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.480 hand saying absolutely, we have to have a level playing field. 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:33.360 I'm going to be tough, and he's pushing these tariffs 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.479 on Chinese electric vehicles, which you know, we were sitting 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:40.279 in Berlin. The previous panel had involved someone from Mercedes 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.919 Benz and indeed one of the German ministers both saying 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:45.920 we can't do it. And it's this situation which speaks 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.320 to our mutual depend you know, the dependence of the 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:51.400 German model on China. The German car industry does not 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:56.240 want tariffs on the Chinese imported electric vehicles because they 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:59.039 export so much to China and they don't want the retaliation. 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.840 In Germany in particular, there's that schizophrenia. But even France, 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:05.520 on the one hand, is talking about taris, on the 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.240 other hand, is desperately trying to get investment from China 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.800 to France. Come to France, don't come to Germany. You know, 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.279 they're playing off each other even as they speak, say 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:15.720 they want to speak in one voice. 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:17.839 It struck me also that there was an extraordy schizophrenia 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:19.200 in what he was saying. On the one hand, he 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.680 sounds georgy, He sounds self confident, but underneath it all 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:25.599 there's a deep worry, I mean a really deep worry 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.040 about the state of Europe and its capacity to address 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:30.479 its problems. And it struck me. I wonder if there 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.480 was a that there was a presumption in the title 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.920 of your piece of your interview about Europe in a 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.720 multipolar world, which is just wrong. It's not a multipolar 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.480 world any more. It's US versus China, and it's US 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.560 versus China that's determining you know, electric vehicles and that 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:48.560 sort of playing field. But also if you look at 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.680 what's happening in the Middle East, Europe isn't playing a part. 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:52.919 It's all us. 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.160 You're quite right, you know, we have our own economists 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:59.200 have our economists have done analysis that shows how far 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.200 Europe's fall behind in terms of its potential growth. I 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.599 think it's about a gap of about twenty percent of 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.520 GDPs opened up in the last few years and that 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.040 we think would grow to forty percent. You know, European 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.000 Union being forty percent smaller in terms of its potential 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:18.560 output than the US. That's in a generation of a 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.360 massive shift in the relative standings. I would say, I 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:25.400 guess my passing thought on this is that we will 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.040 miss him because there are many European leaders. In fact, 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.200 he may be the only one. I felt as we 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.400 were leaving that could that could go on one of 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:38.680 those US Party convention stages and deliver a knockout. 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.960 Speech anyone after blur no blurse, Yes, but I. 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.680 Mean Blair not being a European leader any ayre you 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.080 might want to be. I think, you know, and despite 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:47.600 the fact that he is in fact French, I think 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.760 he's the only one who could represent Europe on that 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.840 kind of stage, and he does have a pretty sharp 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.120 idea of what is at stake in Europe. Continuing to 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:05.920 slip behind well after all that, we should hear that 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:09.520 interview with the French President Emmanuel Macron. You will also 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:14.520 hear I asked a few questions to Lars Henry Kbrawler. 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:18.280 He was Chancellor Merkle's chief advisor for a long time. 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:20.760 He's been around the block. You will hear. He wasn't 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.320 keen to be critical of his own government, but he 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:25.720 did speak to some of the questions that we talked about. 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:30.240 Thank you very much, Monsieur and Las Henri. Thank you 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:35.240 for joining us again. You mentioned a few times Mario 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:39.360 Dragui's report, I think he'd read your so on speech 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:43.480 from April. Some of it read sounded like you, and 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:48.880 he certainly he framed the debate about European compectiveness in 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:54.880 a similarly stark way as an existential challenge facing the 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.360 European model. And as you mentioned, he proposed some very 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:02.080 concrete steps, some of them quite difficult, some of them expensive, 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:07.839 for moving Europe away from this path of decline. How 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:11.400 many of those do you think will be implemented while 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:12.920 you are French president. 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.160 Look, thank you very much and I'm happy to be 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:21.760 here with a roller, and thank you for organizing the 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:25.880 seventh Look, I hope the maximum number of items, because 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:31.200 I already believe that we are at risk. To be honest, 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:36.080 and it's just a word. I think our own model 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:41.480 was completely changed and has to be research. And when 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:46.439 you look at the European model, largely based by the 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.640 way on the strength of German during Germany during the 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:55.880 past decade, we were based on exports and a big 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:58.760 part of the key industry are making industry to China. 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:04.440 We were based on lo cost energy, Russian gas. We 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:10.400 were based on different sombrella from the US without any question, 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:14.720 and everything now is shaken. China has over capacities and 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:18.960 is clearly a competitive place, so it's no more secured 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:23.440 place for our exports. Russian war killed lo cost energy 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.600 and the killer of our competitiveness today is a big 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.199 gap in terms of energy prices everywhere. This is why 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:31.440 we have to completely change our business and have an 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:35.280 integrated energy model, because we can deliver with nuclear and renewables, 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:44.479 but not without being integrated. And very clearly post Afghanistan, 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.120 some people can have doubts and the potential change in 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.280 leadership in the US means that this is not a 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.800 guarantee total total. So this is I want to insist 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:57.720 on that because it's super important to assess fairly the 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:01.480 fact that our former model is and this is not 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.680 a question of adjustment. This is not the same world 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.280 twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five. And on top of that, 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:11.640 we are making the same mistakes. On top of the 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:16.360 key elements I mentioned, we are overregulating and underinvesting. So 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.400 just if in the two to three years to come, 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.760 if we follow our classical agenda, we will be out 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:25.800 of the market, I have no doubt. So I think 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:27.600 what we have to deliver in the two three years 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.800 to come is capital market union. My view is that 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:35.080 we have to rush on energy beyond what we already decided, 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:38.280 which will be implemented for twenty twenty six, which will 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.840 avoids the big pick and the unstability of the energy 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:46.160 market we had during the past few years. We corrected that, 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.760 but we have to go much faster and further, and 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:54.440 we need this investment shock I mentioned, and I think 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:59.680 the simplification agenda and let's say pose in terms of regulation, 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.920 but even the regulation in some issues it's absolutely critical. 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:06.760 Can you have that investment shop without issuance of joint debt? 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.520 I think you know, the best way to deliver is 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:15.880 not to to create big trauma at the beginning by experience. 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.839 But you persuade. You persuaded the Germans before. Can't you 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:22.280 do it again? 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:22.920 This is true? 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:27.440 But I was, if I want to be fair, I 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:30.480 was a little bit helped by a colleague called COVID 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:36.080 nineteen and it changed the reality. But what I think 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.920 we have an external systemic shock. I think we have 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:43.920 to assays that during the pandemic, we all experienced a 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:46.720 symmetric shock for all our economies and this is why 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.680 we have We made this move move with Chancellor Merkle, 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.480 and I think it was a unique movement. This is 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:58.400 really for me a fundamental change of our EU. Now. 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.000 I want to be totally aware of the fact that 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:06.720 we are leaving a symmetric shock on our economies whose 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:12.480 scale and magnitude is underestimated because the real location factor 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.760 is huge. Look at the chemical industry in Europe completely 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:20.240 being relocated because of area I mentioned. If you don't 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:24.320 deliver the level playing filled a gender, we will be 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:28.680 super happy with rich as a good regulation for European consumer, 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:34.679 but no more existing chemical industry and it will be 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.280 the same for still it will be the same for 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:41.160 I mean the existing business we have because of energy 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:45.319 costs and overregulation. So we have to fix energy issue 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.040 and overregulation and for me the single market on energy 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:54.840 and on top of that diversification of our phonitions to 0:13:54.920 --> 0:14:01.480 reduce this discrepancy and acceleration of playing field agenda under 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:05.199 and pose in terms of regulation. It's critical and if 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:07.160 we don't have the level playing fielder agenda, we will 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.400 be killed in this market. And in parallel, for clean 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:14.679 energy and artificial intelligence, we have to invest much more 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:18.679 rapidly and protect as well or key players, otherwise they 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:20.000 will be relocated in the US. 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:25.120 Wears Henrik. I mentioned the joint debt question, but actually 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:29.600 there's a broader issue here that you listen to President Macron, 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.960 you read the drug E report, you read many speeches 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:38.560 frankly from European leaders, but not from the German Chancellor, 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:43.920 not from German leaders assessing the threat to the growth 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:48.080 model in as fundamentally as this the stark language that 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:54.120 President Macron has used, how does Europe move forward, rush 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.440 forward on this agenda if there isn't that understanding, that 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.000 same analysis at the top in Germany. 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.800 I'm not sure that you don't share the analysis with 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:08.200 with mister with the Chancellor Shultz. Obviously he's a different person. 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.200 But I think the analysis that we need simplification what 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.480 you were just saying, we need more investment, we have 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:19.240 less regulation. I think that is something which you know 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:23.600 the chancell he also says, I think that's a fundamental issue. 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:26.440 I think capital market union, as I said, is an 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.800 important step. But in the end, and you know, he 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.720 has been remarkable European. I remember when you first came. 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.560 You're actually a chapper for a while. If I may 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:42.200 say that, yeah, is together, right, but he has moved 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:42.760 on a lot. 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:46.600 I don't think you should feel bad. I think it's okay. 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:52.040 And of course you know he's there's a reason why 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.560 he's moved on and and and so he you know, 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.040 he came on stage and he said, we want Europe, 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:00.320 and you give your speech, and there was a bait 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:05.360 whether Germany was responding appropriate to the young French president 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:10.160 who was doing that. But I think he was always 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:12.680 this good European and I think we're very lucky to 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.000 have him actually as a European. Also if you think 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:17.680 about the latest developments in your country, if I may 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.880 say so, mister president, and also in our country. And 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:22.960 I think the ultimate problem always in the end, and 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:27.120 you alluded to, is that there's still no European answer 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:30.000 to many of these things. But it's not easy in Europe, 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.360 you know, with and even if I may say so, 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:34.920 if Germany and France you said on Capitol market Union 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.280 in Meserbach, you have a paper which took us I 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.360 think ten years or something to get a French and 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.960 a German position on that. So the leadership of Germany 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:46.680 and France is very very important. I think the only 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.200 way actually to move Europe forward. I think that's also 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.320 your view. But are the others then also in the 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.280 future more likely to fall in line in terms of 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:56.320 moving Europe forward. 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.960 Maybe it took ten years to have Franco German agreement 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:00.600 on that, but we've only got a few days to 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:05.479 have Franco German agreement on the tariffs on Chinese electrical vehicles, 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:09.600 and you mentioned it in your speech on this stage. 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:13.800 A year ago. Actually, I spoke to Chancellor Schultz who 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.080 said he didn't want to see a trade war with China. 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:22.320 He didn't like tariffs. His minister earlier said something quite similar. 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:25.000 But there is a vote on whether those tariffs go 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.720 through on Friday, So can I just ask do you 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:31.120 think that will pass, that the EU governments will confirm 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:32.200 those tariffs. 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:34.720 I don't know before the vote. I can tell you 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:39.480 that I do support the European Commission on that because 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:45.240 what I was speaking about electrical vehicles on the European market, 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:50.560 and what is the reality you have the European car makers. 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:52.960 They go to the market and by the way, we 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.680 use our taxpayers money to subsidize the consumer to buy 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.840 this these cars and they have to compete with some 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.480 car makers producing in China with an existing advantage. But 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:08.000 it's part of the offshoring production because reproduce in much 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:12.040 lower cost condition. But on top of that they benefit 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:16.159 from subsidies from the Chinese government. This is a bias 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:20.080 for your market. The question is which model do you choose? 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:22.240 Do you want to be a consumer or a producer. 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.280 And now this is the dilemma we have. Twenty years 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.480 ago for solar panels, we decided to kill our markets 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.760 and we exactly we had the same dilemma. We did choose. 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:34.600 We killed our industry. We had an existing industry, we 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:38.120 killed it and we deployed solar panels in a lot 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:42.160 of places Chinese once. So we created a dependency which 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:43.119 could create some problem. 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:43.920 We experiment that in. 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.000 COVID time and we killed the ability to produce on 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.800 the European soil. It's not a good idea when you 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.199 need growth and you have to finance such a social 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:59.639 model as the one we have. Now, the question is 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.280 do we want a fair competition or not. I do 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:12.639 want fair competition. So the EU Commission launched precisely a 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:16.119 series of studios exchange with all the car makers and 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:21.200 just correct the level of discrepancies to establish the level 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:25.200 playing field, so you have something from nine to ten 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:28.159 for those who are less helped, and I think the 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.639 range is between twenty one and thirty five person TIFs. 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.359 This is a matter of credibility. 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.240 For our market, and I insist on that if you 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.639 don't preserve the level of playing field, just don't hope 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.159 that you want to produce and preserve you're in the 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:43.359 scale foot print in your hope. 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.840 You speak the Chancellor shops earlier. I think it is 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:49.919 a did you make progress? Unfortunately you didn't even have 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:52.520 any advisers in the room and the reporters were unable. 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.480 No chance of us finding out. So I ask. 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:56.480 And I do respect. 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:01.439 All the positions and the sensit of the market. I 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:06.320 think the question is what will become the Chinese market 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:11.479 for the for the car makers. My view is that 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:13.240 it did change during the past few years and it 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:17.239 should not be underestimated. The US just put a one 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:23.119 hundred person tax one hundred person tax undifferentiated, so let's 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.280 wake up. We live in the same world. You cannot 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:30.480 have China over subsidizing a lot of countries, even India 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:34.600 and others reacting to these subsidies, the US overreacting by 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.240 one hundred person trife and the od thing. You're welcome 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:45.680 and it doesn't fly. Otherwise we will be happy consumers 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.440 of non European producers. I can tell you we will 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:51.520 have an issue of growth in a few years time. 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.160 You spoke about the importance of Europe speaking with one 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.160 voice in order to get one voice on this, would 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.639 you be would do you agree to a delay or 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:03.520 some kind of compromise or you think. 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:05.879 I want to be efficient and find compromise and respect 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:09.160 all the positions. I think the I want to advocate 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:13.359 the CEO Commission. They did a great job. It was 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:15.679 bold to do so, honestly because they had a lot 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.040 of pressure not to do it. And in the DNA 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.600 of the Commission, you know that you work there, Larsendric 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:24.119 during Earth it was not in the DNA of the 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:27.600 European Commission to work on this type of issue. 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:29.720 And I think it's for me. 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:35.280 This is a signal that clearly we have a much 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:40.639 more strategic and geo strategic commission as we wanted than before. 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:44.760 But clearly I want to insist in that we are 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:49.879 not just a market or consumers, and we were used 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:52.199 just to behave following the nine and this is not 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:52.879 a good idea. 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:57.600 You talked about protectionism as an ugly word, and that 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:01.800 it's about having a more realistic strategic vision, as the 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:05.520 US does and certainly as China does. I wonder if, 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:07.840 at the same time as having these tariffs for a 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:12.280 level playing field, if you were to support, for example, 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:16.000 finally moving ahead with Mercasoor, would that send a message 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:18.480 to other parts of the world that Europe is still 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:21.320 open for business, that this is a specific thing with China, 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:25.879 but actually Europe is still very much open to trade deals. 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:29.280 I'm in favor of any deal which will be fair. 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:33.199 Does it look fair right now? 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:34.720 Why? 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:39.520 Because exactly the same reason level playing field. You cannot 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:45.199 impose a bunch of regulation to your industries and your 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:48.840 farmers that they are digesting by the way, because it's 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:51.639